Science of Reading: The Podcast

S9 E3: Know the non-negotiables in a program aligned to the Science of Reading, with Kari Kurto

• Amplify Education • Season 9 • Episode 3

Share episode

On this episode, Kari Kurto, National Science of Reading Project Director at The Reading League, discusses The Reading League’s curriculum evaluation tool, which assesses a curriculum’s research-based practices. Kurto's conversation with Susan Lambert touches on her background teaching students with dyslexia, the non-negotiables in curriculum aligned to the Science of Reading, and how educators can use information about an evaluated curriculum to inform instruction. While Kurto stresses that no program is perfect, she and her colleagues have worked to equip educators with a tool to more easily and objectively access information when making curriculum choices..
 
Show notes:


Quotes:
“Just because we have this report and we say, ‘All right, this curriculum has all the stuff,’ if you don't teach it, then you're a red flag of your own.” —Kari Kurto

“It's a movement of improvement, right? We're constantly striving to improve. And don't give up. Share your stories; share your success stories.” —Kari Kurto

“Thank you to those folks who have been listening. Thank you to the folks who are curious about learning more, those who have spent years implementing and tweaking and improving literacy outcomes for our country's next generation. I mean, that's huge.” —Kari Kurto

Episode timestamps*
02:00 Introduction: Who is Kari Kurto?
08:00 Teaching kids with dyslexia, what they need to learn to read
10:00 Reading league defining guide
11:00 Curriculum review tool
16:00 Determining which programs to review
20:00 Using the curriculum review tool as professional development
21:00 Non-negotiables in a science of reading curriculum
24:00 How to use the information from a program evaluation
30:00 Long-term plans of the navigation report tool
32:00 The reporting team
34:00 The Reading League compass
37:00 The Reading League journal
40:00 Final Advice
*Timestamps are approximate, rounded to nearest minute


Kari Kurto:

Go on social media and everybody's saying, "Does my curriculum align to the Science of Reading?" "Does my curriculum align to the Science of Reading?" "Does my curriculum align to the Science of Reading?" And there's no real tool to point them to. So we developed it.

Susan Lambert:

This is Susan Lambert, and welcome to Science of Reading: The Podcast, from Amplify, where the Science of Reading lives. This is Episode 3 in our season-long Reading Reboot, and today's episode is going to be all about curriculum and the importance of high-quality curriculum in the Science of Reading movement. For this discussion, I'm joined today by Kari Kurto. Kari is the National Science of Reading project director with the Reading League. She directs all work related to the curriculum evaluation guidelines, the curriculum navigation reports, and the Reading League Compass. We'll discuss what that is in a bit. In other words, she's someone who knows and thinks a lot about curriculum. On this episode, we'll explore why high-quality curriculum is so important, the key elements of high-quality curriculum, what goes into the Reading League's curriculum evaluation process, and much more. Also, it's now October, which means it's Dyslexia Awareness Month. As you'll soon hear, early in her career, Kari got a job at a school serving students with dyslexia, which played a big part in her story. And don't forget, this season, we're taking on some of your Science of Reading questions. Stick around until the end of the episode for more information on that. And now, here's Kari. Well, Kari, welcome to the podcast. We're so excited to have you on.

Kari Kurto:

I am so thrilled to be here, Susan. Thank you so much for having me.

Susan Lambert:

Of course. And we're gonna talk a little bit about some of the work that you've done with the Reading League and some of the support that you're providing for educators. But as we always do, before we get started, we would love for you to tell our listeners: How in the world did you end up at the Reading League, and what's your story?

Kari Kurto:

<laugh> Thank you so much. Yeah, I would love to share because it's not necessarily the most traditional path. I actually started my first career in Los Angeles. I spent some time in the television industry. So it didn't directly translate to my work at the Reading League. But I do think that I formed a really good understanding of what can be accomplished when a group works together for the same outcome. So that was a good skill that I developed in that work.

Susan Lambert:

That's a first. Kari, we have never had anybody that said, "My background started in television." So congratulations! <Laugh>

Kari Kurto:

I know. I have my whole IMDB and everything. You can look it up. <laugh> Proud to be a first. So then I decided to transition into teaching. My parents were both teachers and I got a master's in teaching. And I moved to Austin, Texas. And unfortunately, because I am monolingual, there were not a lot of job opportunities there for me as a beginning teacher. It was just after the recession. So through the magic of Craigslist, actually, I got my one and only interview. <Laughs> I know. It was like the big rage back then, too — like, circa, I don't know , 2010. And so I got my first interview. And I got a job at a school called Rawson Saunders, and it's a school for students with dyslexia. And I was like, "What the heck is dyslexia? I don't know! But I really like you guys and thank you for giving me a job!" <Laugh> So through my work there, the kids there changed my life. The way that they were teaching was completely different than the way that I had learned to teach reading and my m aster's program. And so then, when I moved to Rhode Island, I was looking for a teaching job, but I couldn't get this idea out of my head. These academic language therapists that were working with the students at Rawson Saunders had this, like, secret knowledge of how to actually teach kids how to read, and I wanted to learn it. So I had the great fortune of meeting an Orton-Gillingham fellow named Linda Atamian, who gave me that gift. She taught me about how the brain learns to read, w hat happens when students struggle. And I learned all about the structure of the English language. I was really interested in words before — kind of a word nerd — but this training definitely sealed the deal. < L aughs> Full-on w ord nerd now. And so I was able to use that knowledge and break it down explicitly and systematically to my students. I was simultaneously working at a high school for students with learning differences. And it just felt so empowering to know exactly what I was doing. To know how to help them. To give them academic success for the first time at 13, 15, 17 years old. Right? These were non-readers. And so I wanted to figure out a way of getting this knowledge into more educators' hands. It just seemed like the secret ingredient that I didn't know about previously. So I did some advocacy work with some amazing individuals at Decoding Dyslexia Rhode Island, and we got the Right t o Read Act passed here in Rhode Island. And long story short, I ended up working at the Rhode Island Department of Education, and my primary role was actually implementing the Right t o Read Act. And one of the first things that I did there ... it was interesting because we passed the Right to Read Act and simultaneously they also passed a law for schools to use high-quality instructional materials. So one of the first things I did was to start to peek through those high-quality instructional materials on the approved list. And I went, "Uh-oh." <Laughs.> I said, there's some things in here that run counter to this research that I've been learning about. So, simultaneously I was talking with Maria Murray, who I had met at the Reading League conference that year, and we were, you know, on Facebook Messenger, just kind of exchanging shocked emojis <laugh> and things like that. Just talking about, you know, this issue that folks were misunderstanding the Science of Reading, that they were misunderstanding what it meant for instructional materials, that we're really talking about a body of knowledge. So I was fortunate enough to be invited to join a small group of individuals where we convened frequently and eventually came up with the definition of the Science of Reading. And the content that became the Reading League's defining guide. And we discussed the need for a tool to help folks understand and unpack that understanding of if my curriculum aligns to the Science of Reading. So how did I get to the Reading League? Well, I got to know a lot of folks through that. and eventually t his job of the National Science of Reading Project Director was posted and it was doing a lot of the work I was doing in Rhode Island, but more of a national level. And I had t he opportunity to work from home, which with three babies was very enticing. So I was absolutely thrilled when I was hired for the role in March of 2022.

Susan Lambert:

That's very cool. Before we start talking about the defining guide in that curriculum review tool, I wanna backtrack just a tiny bit. Because this episode will be released during October, which is Dyslexia Awareness Month. So I would love you for you to just take a couple of minutes to talk about ... when you say when you went to the school with kids that were struggling with dyslexia, struggling to learn how to read, they were teaching reading differently ... and I wonder if you can talk to our listeners about, "Do kids with dyslexia need a different kind of instruction?" Can you talk about that?

Kari Kurto:

Yeah, absolutely. I literally googled the word dyslexia when I saw the ad on Craigslist and that it was a school for students with dyslexia, because I had the knowledge that many humans — I wouldn't even say educators, but many humans have — of, "Isn't that where they flip their Bs and Ds?"

Susan Lambert:

Right,

Kari Kurto:

That's kind of just baseline. That's what people think. That's what they know. And I didn't know. It wasn't discussed in my master's program. And so what I saw them doing was going around with these flashcards and they were talking about macrons, and breves, and syllables and syllable types, and I was like, "What is all this cool stuff?" And so a wonderful gentleman named Perry Stokes at the school helped me understand a little bit of what that was. But it was just so cool that these little bitty kids, you know ... they were talking about how schools didn't really serve them well previously. And they found their way to Rawson Saunders, where teachers understood dyslexia, they understood how to teach kids with dyslexia, and they gave them these gifts of understanding the language at such a deep level that they could put together the phenology of the language, the morphology of the language, and its instruction, that we know that all students should have. Because that's the instruction that is most aligned to the scientific evidence. But it's instruction that they need with multiple practice opportunities and multiple repetitions.

Susan Lambert:

Yeah. Thank you for saying that, that this is the kind of instruction we should be delivering to all students. It's just sometimes some kids need a little more time and repetition and practice with that. And I think that's a really good segue into ... well, the Reading League Defining Guide, which if people don't know it, we will link our listeners in the show notes to that. I literally downloaded it as a PDF and use it all the time. Which seems kind of silly, that I go back to it, but it's a good grounding mechanism, isn't it, to remind us what it's all about?

Kari Kurto:

Absolutely. And it doesn't explain everything. You couldn't explain everything. It really just is a resource to begin your understanding of "What is the Science of Reading? What is it not? What are just a few things that we have learned from the research?" But it starts your journey.

Susan Lambert:

Yeah. Yeah. OK. Let's make the transition now to this thing called the curriculum review tool. So after you're looking at all the things on the list and kind of freaking out a little bit , tell us just a little bit about why you thought it was important to develop that tool and how it came to be.

Kari Kurto:

Yeah, absolutely. So, this was right around 2019, 2020 when the phrase "the Science of Reading" was really starting to come into popular use. And in full transparency, people were using it as a marketing tool. Right? They're sticking the sticker on a product, not quite understanding what it means, and perhaps in a way that's not fully true. That's problematic, right? This isn't a catchphrase. We're talking about a significant body of research. So, a group of folks that includes Linda Diamond and Louisa Moats, Kelly Butler, Kymyona Burk, Stephanie Stollar, an amazing, brilliant team, we all started working on the first version, which was just a Google sheet <laugh>. And started about, "OK, what do we know from research what's aligned, but also what's not aligned?" Because there are other review resources out there, and a lot of them will uplift the aligned components. But when you look at these giant curricula, you might find all of these aligned components, but you also have these pieces that run counter to the research that might be a waste of that precious instructional time, right ? And it might hold kids behind. And so that's the reason why we developed the tool in the manner that we did, of uplifting those red-flag practices as well. So, that was the first iteration, right? It was really intended just to have something. Because on social media, you go on social media, and everybody's saying, "Does my curriculum align to the Science of Reading? Does my curriculum align to the Science of Reading? Does my curriculum align to the Science of Reading?" And there's no real tool to point them to. So we developed it. Right? And then when I joined the Reading League, we gave it a nice facelift. And we started to dive into it what needed to be added. And we decided that the most important thing that needed to be added was the research itself, right? We're saying, "Well, this is from research." But anybody can say that. We needed to prove it. And so we hired Dr. Doreen Mazzye, who is brilliant and wonderful, and such a stickler for the research, to make sure that we're not just citing books or publications or things from the media, but we're citing actual scientifically based research to support the components. And because of that, it's been used by a lot of people, including publishers. But I have to name that we did begin to get a little worried when we heard about publishers filling it out on their own. < Laughs > That was not the intent, right? Because there's always going to be some level of bias there.

Susan Lambert:

Sure.

Kari Kurto:

So because of that, and because we're hearing from schools and districts that they do not have the capacity and they do not have the time to engage in this very lengthy project on their own, that's when we started to think about, could we actually review these curricula as the Reading League? Could we do that in a way that's unbiased? Could we do it in a way that's transparent and fair? So we did a pilot review and we listened in <laugh>. It was like a two-way mirror on Zoom. We were just listening in to the conversations to hear if any bias was getting in. We tweaked the tool a little bit after that pilot review. And then we had Dr. Matt Burns conduct an inter-rater reliability study. And after all of those steps, we felt like we had something where we could actually review the curricula on our own. So that's how the Curriculum Navigation Reports then came to fruition <laugh> .

Susan Lambert:

Got it. So step one was really developing the tool and letting districts sort of fill it out for themselves. Right?

Kari Kurto:

Yeah.

Susan Lambert:

And then we're gonna dig in a little bit, but I love what you said, that not only did you put what you should see in a program, but what you shouldn't see. And we're gonna talk about those red flags. That was brilliant. Because I don't think there's another tool that actually does that. Anyway, so then you guys decided to do this yourself. How long did that process take, from when you're pulling the trigger — "we're gonna do this ourselves, and we're gonna go through this pilot process, and inter-rater reliability" — to when you actually were able to get some of these reports up?

Kari Kurto:

It was close to a year, I would say. We really wanted to make sure internally that we did it right, as well. And bringing up the study reminds me that I should mention that there's now a paper that will be published — or might already be published — in the Assessment for Effective Intervention that goes through that inter-rater reliability study that Matt did.

Susan Lambert:

Amazing.

Kari Kurto:

Yeah. It took the better part of a year. We started with the legal department, just saying, "Can we do this in a way that we are going to be OK?" And then the pilot review took a good few months. The inter-rater reliability took several months. So, you know, just paying really careful attention, the whole way of thinking, "Is this helpful? Is this transparent? Is this unbiased? And does this stay true to the research?" Because obviously at the Reading League, that's what we care the most about: You know, making sure that everything is truly in alignment with the research.

Susan Lambert:

And how did you decide which programs to review?

Kari Kurto:

Well, we reached out to several publishers. We did begin with the curricula that we knew to be the most widely used. And coming from a state education agency — and I actually run a community of practice for state education agencies, and we meet monthly — I knew that a lot of folks did look to EdReports for their list. And so we started out by reaching out to several of those publishers , which can be very daunting — for a publisher, I should say! — to say, "Hi, we're here, we're the Reading League, dunno if you heard about us, dunno if you've heard about these curriculum evaluation guidelines; we wanna look at your red flags!" <Laugh> It's daunting. So we were fortunate in that the first year, many of the larger curricula said yes. And so if you are in a school or district that has one of those <laugh> curricula , say thank you to your publisher! Because I know it was daunting. And it's still one of the harder aspects of it. You know, the publishers deciding whether they want to be reviewed or not. And, you know, trying to encourage them to understand that this is a tool for educators to build their knowledge and have an understanding of what they have in their classrooms. And that, sorry, it's not a marketing tool for you. That's kind of a hard path to navigate. So, we have had some folks say no. But we're hopeful that they'll say yes in the future.

Susan Lambert:

That makes sense. And I think there's a disclaimer ... or maybe it's not a disclaimer, but maybe there's an explanation to people that are looking at these programs that have been reviewed and you actually say, "No program is perfect."

Kari Kurto:

"No program is perfect."

Susan Lambert:

And really helping people understand how to use these tools, too. What would you say to folks that are in a classroom and they're like, "Well, yeah, but the program I'm using hasn't been reviewed by you." What advice would you give them?

Kari Kurto:

They're gonna have to do a little bit more research, unfortunately. They could certainly reach out to the publisher and say, "We really find these resources to be useful and we're hopeful that you engage in a review ." I think I can disclose that the majority of the publishers did not outright say "no" to a review at all. They said, "We wanna wait for a future version." <Laughs> OK. Or, "We're hopeful that, you know, we can be reviewed in the future." Which I think is really exciting, in some ways, because it means that they're paying attention. It means that folks are really homing into the research. They're really homing into the curriculum evaluation guidelines. They know that it's important and they wanna put their own best foot forward. I do get a little frustrated because those materials that are upcoming are not the ones that are in the classroom. And we want this to be a tool to help them navigate. There's a reason why these are the navigation reports, so we wish that we had more options for you, but hopefully, if you do have a larger publisher that has not yet been reviewed, we're hopeful that w e'll have a report for you in future years.

Susan Lambert:

And at minimum, folks can take the tool themselves and look at it against the program that they're using.

Kari Kurto:

Absolutely.

Susan Lambert:

Which is time-consuming. But one other thing that I wonder, too, before we jump into more about the tool ... this is a great professional development opportunity. Even if you're not putting it against a program. It seems to me that a PLC or a group of teachers that wanted to get together and learn more about what do we mean by the Science of Reading could use this tool.

Kari Kurto:

Absolutely. And start with the reference section. You know, that all of us nerds love to read through. Al that research. You know, start there and look at the research and talk about it. And then you can see what's uplifted. And in fact, I always ask folks how they use the guidelines. Some people use it in PLCs, some folks use it as more of a walkthrough tool. And one really exciting way that I've heard it used, and Matt Burns actually did this while he was also doing the inter-rater reliability, is they take the curriculum evaluation guidelines in their educator preparation program and they'll use it as an outline for their syllabus. And so they'll use the research and they'll provide their students with the research to read and unpack and discuss. And then at the end of that class, they'll take a high-quality curriculum, perhaps one that's online, and they'll actually ask the students to review it using what they've learned. And I think that's a really exciting potential opportunity for Ed prep.

Susan Lambert:

That's brilliant. Brilliant, brilliant. All right, let's get into the meat of this thing. So what are some of the most important things that you look for? I think you have something called the non-negotiables. Is that right?

Kari Kurto:

Yeah. We do, we do. We have the non-negotiables. So some of the non-negotiables are really like, "What are those aspects that we know are most critical to developing skilled literacy? What do we have the most amount of research to support?" So it includes ensuring that in language comprehension, reading comprehension, and writing, that students are exposed to rich vocabulary and complex syntax in reading and writing materials. Because when we're reading, we are reading language. And so if you only expose your kiddos to, you know, some leveled texts and baby talk or, or what have you, then that's what they're gonna be able to comprehend. But if you expose them to that high-level vocabulary and have high expectations and great discussions with them, then they're going to be able to comprehend that once they're able to crack the code. We also have a non-negotiable around questioning, because you want your students to be able to process information beyond that surface level. You wanna get them thinking. Because that will help them in their future reading comprehension. It's also an important non-negotiable when an LEA looks at their entire suite of assessments that you're not just assessing for comprehension. It's not just, "What do the kids know? What can they answer?" You're really ensuring that you have assessments that help you understand those sub-components of literacy and how your kiddos are doing with each one. Without that data, it's hard to know what your students' needs are. And then I leave word recognition for the end because I'm always trying to address that misconception that the Science of Reading is all about phonics and word rec . Right? But the truth of the matter is that, of course, without solid evidence-aligned instruction in word recognition, then the students cannot unlock that door to literacy. Right ? That's a non-starter. So you have to be an accurate and automatic decoder to be able to comprehend. So of course we have the non-negotiable red flags that there has to be a scope and sequence to learn those skills. We have a non-negotiable that it cannot be based in whole language. And then of course, finally we have a non-negotiable red flag that we don't wanna see any evidence of the three-cueing systems being used as a primary decoding strategy.

Susan Lambert:

And again, I'm trying to visualize this tool again. I should have pulled it up on my computer. So I had it right here in front of me <laugh> , but I think those non-negotiable red flags are literally in red. Is that right?

Kari Kurto:

Yes. All the red flags are red. But the non-negotiables are lifted out. They're in a separate section. So there's the front matter, which of course we want you to read because it says that instructional materials are important, but it takes a lot more to develop an evidence-line system. And we can talk about that later. But , we have the red flags first, and then we have some aligned practices underneath. So those are important to read through, but the tool is really set up for you to look at those red flags specifically.

Susan Lambert:

So let's say that a district or a school is using a program that you have reviewed, and you have it on that navigation tool. How do you suggest that they use that tool, particularly if there's areas of weakness for that particular program?

Kari Kurto:

Yeah. I say, "Use this as a baseline." You know, have this be one of the first things that you read through if you are considering a curriculum, help you understand what might be the strongest program that meets the specific context of your school. and if you have a curriculum already — which many folks do, right? Many folks have used their ESSER funds and they have a curriculum and they won't have an adoption cycle for some time — so use it to determine, you know, we tell you what those areas where it's strongly aligned to the research are. And make sure that you teach them! < Laughs.> I have to say, <laugh> just because we have this report and we say, "All right , this curriculum has all this stuff," if you don't teach it <laugh>, then you're inadvertently creating a red flag of your own. Right?

Susan Lambert:

Oh, that's such a good point.

Kari Kurto:

Don't just, you know, cheat and say, "All right , we got a bunch of ones here; we're good to go." Really read and unpack what those ones are, to make sure that you're actually addressing that content. Because when we get down to things like like text structure and corresponding signal words, you might just glaze over that thinking it's not that important. But we have a lot of research to support the fact that that is, in fact, important. But if there are areas of weakness, then that's going to be up to a school-based team to work collaboratively and determine how to address those issues. And so, how do you feel about metaphors? < Laughs > Are you a fan of metaphors?

Susan Lambert:

Oh, I'm a fan. No, totally a fan of metaphors. You go for it.

Kari Kurto:

So I came up with a metaphor today. <Laugh> And I think that the curriculum navigation reports can kind of be seen like the nutrition facts right on the side of our food.

Susan Lambert:

Right.

Kari Kurto:

We as the Reading League, we're not going to tell you what to buy. We're not gonna tell you how specifically to use it. But here are the facts of where the product aligns with the research. This is what's inside. This is what's good for you, according to science. Right? This is what's needed in your percent daily value of literacy. <Laughs> Now schools have that information. They should use that information. And they can decide how to take it and make sure that their students have a healthy diet that suits their needs. There's my metaphor.

Susan Lambert:

I love it. That's brilliant. And you just thought of it today just for this podcast. I'm sure <laugh>.

Kari Kurto:

I did, <laugh> actually.

Susan Lambert:

I think that's another first, Kari. So, another first <laugh> . I love how you described that, because of course I always jump to make sure you understand what's missing in your program. And this navigation tool highlights what's missing. But your point about "if it's there in your program and we're showing it's there, you better think about are you actually teaching it." Because to your point, I know a lot of times the implementation just doesn't happen.

Kari Kurto:

Yeah. And it's hard because, you know, a lot of these programs are very large. There is a lot to teach. And sometimes, you may need to cut down from time to time, if you are finding that you need multiple opportunities for repetition. So use this as a guideline to determine what that fluff is that Anita Archer says to cut, right? And what that stuff is to keep.

Susan Lambert:

Yeah. That's a a great point. So what's been the response to these reports?

Kari Kurto:

I think it's been pretty favorable , so far. I think last week Maria actually texted me that she was in an airport in Texas and somebody saw her wearing her Reading League T-shirt, and he said, "Oh, the Reading League, thank you so much. I love your Navigation Reports." And so that was really neat, right? That that is something that the Reading League is now being come to, known by. I think state departments of education are starting to distribute them among their LEAs, schools are using them, we're excited about hearing about them in the media, educators linking them to them on social media. That question, "Does my curriculum align to the Science of Reading?" I think it was the day after or two days after our launch on May 1st, and I saw on Facebook somebody asking about a particular program, and the first response was, "Read the Navigation Report." And it was just kind of like, "Done!" I was like, "Yes, we have addressed the question that we intended to!" So that's been really exciting to see. And we hope that other folks will share with us how they are using them, if they're using them. We love hearing about that. And again, you know, thank the publishers that have been brave enough to allow us to review them. And if you are looking for one in a curriculum that's in that "decline to provide materials" list, then tell them. You know, let them know that this is something that you want, and this is something that you need. I do, I think, hopefully, work very collaboratively and fairly with publishers. And at the same time, I still want that messaging to get out that it's not about marketing; it's about educators getting the knowledge that they need.

Susan Lambert:

Yeah. Very good point. I love that. So do you have any sort of longterm plan on how this navigation report is gonna be used? Are there plans to expand it, you know, extend it, revise it?

Kari Kurto:

Yeah, so right now we have eight reports up. We just added an eighth one recently. It's Bookworms. So that is now up as well. And I have nearly 10 teams. My 10th team hopefully should be getting to work pretty soon. But the goal is for 10 new reports to be introduced in this upcoming year.

Susan Lambert:

Wow.

Kari Kurto:

We'll do it on a sort of ongoing basis . We won't have another big launch party with ribbon cutting, although that was really fun. <Laughs> I love the Reading League, in that sometimes I have crazy ideas and they just say, "Yeah, let's do it." <Laughs> So that was really fun. If you didn't see the launch party, we all had ribbons and scissors and we cut the ribbon and then the page was revealed. But we will launch them on an ongoing basis. So please sign up to the Reading League's newsletter. You can either google the Reading League newsletter or go to the Reading League website and sign up for the newsletter, and you will learn about when those new reports are posted. And yeah, we hope to continue and expand the project. I know that publishers are constantly evolving and coming up with new materials, and so we hope to review those new materials as they come out. The guidelines ... people ask if we are going to look at intervention. The answer is, "Not now." Because the guidelines really were normed and developed to look at those Tier 1 materials. So it would take a new resource. And we are starting to look at some programs that are more specific to foundational skills or to language, and so we will have some of those reports available as well.

Susan Lambert:

Wow.

Kari Kurto:

People also ask if we are going to have anything for older grades, and the answer for that is also, "Not yet." But again, sign up to our newsletter and pay attention because we will have some resources being announced this fall that will be helpful for understanding the needs of adolescent learners.

Susan Lambert:

That's amazing. And as you were talking, you said you have 10 teams working on 10 more reports. How many people do you have on each team?

Kari Kurto:

We have three individuals on each team in the beginning phases.

Susan Lambert:

I'm just thinking about the amount of staffing that takes to actually accomplish this project. So it's not just Kari going through these by herself. You have a whole team of people, I would imagine, across the country, who are working on this.

Kari Kurto:

Yes. And they are anonymous, but they know who they are. And I love and respect and appreciate every single one of you, because it is so much work. However, we are so fortunate to have some of the most knowledgeable expert folks that are our reviewers, who also have experience in a classroom and understand how curricula are put together. And so , it is a lot of work to get everything organized. And yet because these teams are such professionals, it's also easy to allow them to do their work and then to come back to me. So they all review them independently within their team, and then they come together to norm on the scores. It's all just fact-to-fact, it's the research to the information on the pages of the instructional materials, and then they give me their workbooks with all of this information. And our brilliant writer then takes all of that and develops it into our first version of the narrative. Then we have an incredible copy editor that's on staff now. Shout out to Kristin Spaulding, who will go through it. And then we share it with the publisher, and then the fun begins. <Laughs> So we do go a little bit back and forth with the publisher, to make sure that everybody's comfortable with the content that's put out. And, you know , again, we stick to our most important thing, which is that it is in alignment with the research. And then we'll hand it to our designer and then it's uploaded. And that whole process, we try to be very transparent. Most of it is explained on the curriculum decision-makers web page.

Susan Lambert:

And we should talk about ... listeners who are unfamiliar with the tool, can we talk now about where they can find this? And maybe talk a little bit about the compass?

Kari Kurto:

Absolutely. I lovingly refer to the Reading League Compass as my fourth child. So that's like asking any parent to talk about their child. "Yes. Yay ." <Laughs.> T he Reading League Compass is a portion of the Reading League website, and it was designed to provide direction for a variety of specific stakeholders. So we have a page for educators and specialists t hat have all those goodies that we all love to learn from. We have a page that is for administrators, so that they know, yes, instructional materials is a huge focus, but just because you've bought a curriculum, it doesn't mean you're doing the Science of Reading. You need to build knowledge. You need to develop a system. You have to think about that essential role of coaching to bridge knowledge to practice. These are all the things that you have to think about i n implementation. So, that's for administrators. We have a page for those who are working to support English learners and emergent bilingual students. That's where our joint statement lives. That's gotten quite a bit of attention, so check that out. If you haven't already. We also have a page for educator preparation programs, that's got lots of resources for syllabi, refinement, and lots of great resources for faculty from ed prep. And then we have a page for policymakers and state education agencies. So we have an interactive map there that's really cool to kind of poke through and understand what's going on around the country insofar as the Science of Reading is concerned. And now we have this new page for curriculum decisionmakers. So I hope that listeners will go and explore the page, read all of the content, and that is where the reports themselves, all eight of them now, are located — at the bottom of that page. And we strategically put it at the bottom so that you read everything that you need to know before you access those reports. < L aughs.>

Susan Lambert:

That's awesome.

Kari Kurto:

And we'll have a couple of new pages this fall. So again, stay tuned.

Susan Lambert:

Wow. Amazing. And again, listeners, we'll link you in the show notes to that, so you can just click and get right to it. But again, constantly evolving. And if you're a member of the Reading League, you also have access to this amazing journal. Can you talk about that just really quickly?

Kari Kurto:

Yeah. So, the journal is a separate component and so ... it's not necessarily membership, but you can subscribe to the journal. And the journal is full of really wonderful articles. They are all peer-reviewed and just chock full of great and useful information written in a way that's manageable and digestible. Great summer beach reads. Or, this will come out in the fall, so sit sipping your hot cider and read a copy of the journal. We do, however, have chapters throughout the U. S. As well, and you can become a member of a chapter in your state, or you can reach out to our national chapter coordinator, who is one of my favorite humans, Andrea Setmeyer. And she could put you in touch with some folks who are likely talking about starting a chapter in your state, if they haven't already. So you can go to the Reading League website to find out more about our chapters as well.

Susan Lambert:

Very awesome. And just a shout out to the Reading League for, well, first of all, the journal that you publish. And it's four times a year, and the articles are so accessible, right? They're easier to read than if you were going to pull up a full research article in another journal. So, love that. And just love how all the chapters too are just really working hard to not only support the people in their state, but a lot of them you can like join some of their events if you're not even within their same state. So, it's just really cool how people are coming together as a community here.

Kari Kurto:

We see ourselves as knowledge brokers, so the more people have that knowledge, the better off everybody is.

Susan Lambert:

Yeah. And the Reading League has ... I mean, you are have been instrumental in establishing the Science of Reading movement. I think it was Maria who first talked about it as a movement. What advice do you have for our listeners as they're starting to think about learning more about the Science of Reading, or more about this, what we'll call movement?

Kari Kurto:

Yeah. Well first I think that I would say a huge thank you <laugh>. Thank you to those folks who have been listening. Thank you to the folks who are curious about learning more. Those who have spent years implementing and tweaking and improving literacy outcomes for our country's next generation. I mean, that's huge. So mostly, thank you. And it's a movement of improvement <laugh>, right? We're constantly striving to improve. And don't give up. Share your stories; share your success stories . I would love to know them. I post success stories on the Reading League Compass as well. So if you have a data-driven success story to share, please feel free to reach out to me. I would love to hear it and share it. I think I would also say that, you know, as educators, as administrators, as decision makers, people talk about the pendulum swinging, but it's not about the Science of Reading or not the Science of Reading. Of course we wanna listen to the research, but in the implementation, you really do hold the pendulum in your hands. And so, again, ensure that you're shoring up your word recognition instruction. Look into that; lean into that. It is so critical. It is so important. And there are so many kids struggling at middle- and high-school levels because they did not receive that, and that's not OK. And make sure that you're not doing it at the expense of building language, building knowledge, developing and practicing writing skills, and all those critical skills that go into skilled literacy. Understanding that a comprehensive approach to literacy, it's not some other thing. That is the Science of Reading. That's what the research says. We need all of those things . And make sure that you're teaching all of those components on the curriculum evaluation guidelines. And also, you know, I think I would just mention, don't listen to those who are trying to influence the media with strawmen arguments that the Science of Reading is only about one or two things. It's up to all of us to understand all of the research points , teaching all the components of the curriculum evaluation guidelines. Right? And building knowledge and coaching and multi-tiered systems of support and understanding how best to apply this for your school's own culturally, linguistically, and neurodiverse population. I think that's really important to name too.

Susan Lambert:

That's great advice. Well, before we let you go, we wanna give you a moment to say any final thoughts you have .

Kari Kurto:

I would love to just reiterate that we'd love to hear from you if you've used the reports, if you found them helpful. If you are a school, if you're a teacher, if you're working with English learners, emergent bilingual students, we would love to hear your success stories. If you are an established publisher and you'd like to be considered for a review, then we'd love to hear from you. And I think that <laugh> what I'd like to end on is just to say to everybody that it takes a League. And thank you for being a part of ours.

Susan Lambert:

Well, Kari, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate the work you do so much, and I also appreciate you. Thank you again.

Kari Kurto:

I appreciate you too, Susan. Thank you.

Susan Lambert:

That was Kari Kurto, National Science of Reading Project Director with the Reading League. Remember to check out the show notes for links to many of the incredible resources we discussed. Next time, we're continuing our reading reboot by revisiting the Simple View of Reading, with renowned literacy expert Hugh Catts. In this upcoming episode, Dr. Catts will not only refresh us on the simple view of reading, but he'll explain why he wants us to rethink our understanding of comprehension.

Hugh Catts:

We have to think a little bit more deeply in general about comprehension and start developing some models that will allow us to do that — to go beyond the skill-based approach to reading comprehension and, you know, focus on purpose. Why are we wanting kids to comprehend this particular text? And so forth.

Susan Lambert:

That's coming up next time. And a couple reminders: Throughout this reboot, we're paying special attention to the critical, reciprocal relationship between reading and writing. We've even got a special miniseries focused entirely on writing that's coming up soon. Stay tuned for more on that. And also, this season, we want to hear your Science of Reading questions. What's a question you'd like us to explore? We've already gotten some wonderful submissions on topics such as getting caregivers on board with Science of Reading instruction, and teaching students with significant cognitive disabilities. Find out more information and submit a question at amplify.com/SORmailbag. Remember, by submitting a question, you could also win a visit from me to your school. Science of Reading: The Podcast is brought to you by Amplify. I'm Susan Lambert and thank you so much for listening.