223 - Choosing Your Responses to Life's Challenges w/Rodrigo Souza

We're joined today by Rodrigo Souza, a teacher of adaptive and accessible yoga. He shares his evolutionary journey since sustaining a life-changing spinal cord injury at the age of 33, paralyzing him from the chest down. 

Some episode highlights:

• Embracing imperfection and overcoming the fear of sharing your voice
• Identity is not fixed and can evolve after life-altering events
• Yoga can be a powerful tool for healing and cultivating self-compassion.
• Choose your response to life's challenges with grace and curiosity.
• Creating a safe and inclusive space is essential for yoga teachers to facilitate personal growth and self-discovery in their students.
• Being loud and advocating for inclusivity in the yoga community is crucial for making yoga accessible to all individuals.
• Chair yoga as a valuable practice that can make yoga accessible to disabled individuals, providing them with the physical and mental benefits of the practice.
• Serving the disabled community through yoga can be a rewarding experience that allows teachers to learn and grow in their own practice.

Connect with Rodrigo through his website or Instagram.

Chapters

00:00
Introduction and Purpose

01:02
The Power of Connection

02:13
Language and Voice

03:11
Overcoming Fear of Speaking

05:25
Vulnerability and Sharing Your Voice

08:07
Embracing Imperfection

09:50
Love and Changing Relationships

10:54
Identity and Life Transformations

17:22
The Reality of Time

18:30
Learning Swedish and Embracing Culture

21:13
Shifting Identity After Injury

23:11
Yoga as a Tool for Healing

25:50
Choosing Your Path and Embracing Change

27:07
Navigating Difficult Times with Grace

29:05
Cultivating Self-Compassion

32:38
Choosing Your Response to Life's Challenges

36:15
Finding Ease and Effort in Yoga

39:29
The Beginning of a Yoga Journey

44:31
Defining Spirituality

45:45
Spirituality and the Collective

47:02
Finding Spirituality through Yoga

49:20
Yoga for All Bodies

52:09
Challenging Ableism in Yoga

57:47
Expanding Yoga Practices Worldwide

01:03:31
Facilitating Yoga for Disabled Individuals

01:09:13
The Responsibility of Yoga Teachers

01:11:31
Grief and Yoga

01:18:08
Moving Softly and Befriending Emotions

01:26:10
Yoga as a Tool for Self-Acceptance

01:28:04
The Gift of Yoga

01:29:00
Creating a Safe Space

01:30:31
Being Loud and Inclusive

01:31:30
Chair Yoga and Accessibility

01:33:10
Learning from Each Other

01:33:45
Teaching Yoga to Disabled Folks

01:36:35
Serving the Disabled Community

01:37:03
Embodying the Practice

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The music for this episode is Threads by The Light Meeting.
Produced by: Grey Tanner

Transcript

Bonnie (00:00.393)
Hmm.

Bonnie (00:03.662)
Welcome back to the podcast, everyone.

I am delighted about our guest today because again, this is the power of social media. Again this is when I see somebody and say that there's something there. Like this is somebody that I want to know. This is somebody that the world needs to know. This is somebody who is living the fuck out of their life and doing it on purpose and doing it with purpose and being unapologetic in the way that they're showing up.

and using their life, their voice, their ability to meet others in ways that are changing other people's lives. And so today for lovely conversation, I have Rodrigo Souza and Rodrigo is coming here from Brazil. So welcome.

Rodrigo (01:02.962)
Thank you so much, Bonnie. Thank you for saying my name correctly. And it's so lovely to be here. Thank you for inviting me to be here.

Bonnie (01:16.543)
It truly is like my own pleasure to have you be here Rodrigo. For several reasons and again I think it's like before we started recording just like the opportunity for us to have more conversations as teachers to have a space where we are showing up together and where we can serve different people in different ways.

I think we do this together. Like this isn't a solo job. This isn't a solo journey, just because like, as much as I like to find yoga as a practice of paying attention, like we need each other. We need each other. And I think as yoga teachers and as well yoga teachers and fellow human beings, we don't do this alone.

Rodrigo (02:05.574)
Yes.

Bonnie (02:07.094)
Yeah, yeah.

Bonnie (02:13.21)
I, you speak, before we start recording, you shared how you speak four languages. And so I wanna begin with us today. You speak Portuguese, you speak Spanish, and you speak English, and you speak Swedish. For some reason, like the Swedish on there, I'm like, this is, like, we're gonna learn more about this story, I'm excited. But I...

I want to jump in here as we talk about voice. And here on a podcast where most people will just be listening to our conversation and is listening to our voice. And my interest in supporting others owning their voice and what that means and how that, I don't know, is a journey for each of us.

I think about how when I was younger and I took some Spanish classes in high school, like when I was 16, 17, 18, back around those years, and I loved it so much. I had an amazing Spanish teacher, and then I went on and did more Spanish classes in college. And I really love...

I love the learning of languages. I love how much it even taught me about English to learn Spanish. And, uh, like the, the different ways of making sounds. I have a friend who speaks Dutch and trying to learn how to say Dutch words, which is a whole thing. Cause you're quite guttural, not very much, not English, but I stopped eventually taking Spanish lessons. One, our Spanish classes in college, one, because it was getting quite hard, quite difficult. And.

Two, I was afraid. I didn't have teachers that were, we didn't, you know, you have to speak it. And I was afraid to speak it. And you really needs to be a classroom that's fostering the speaking portion amongst each other. And I really was scared about getting it wrong.

Bonnie (04:37.186)
And I think that's a big reason why I stopped taking Spanish classes is because I was nervous about messing up and not doing it well and not getting it right and looking like...

a fool, you know, being like, oh, you don't even know what you're doing and nobody understands you, et cetera, et cetera. So I love that as the story here where, you know, you and I have been talking about learning languages and then also sharing voice and now we're on a podcast and so you're here. And what does it mean to you? And can you tell me a little bit about your journey of sharing your voice?

and leaning into maybe a space where maybe, like my own journey, like I've definitely had times in my life where it has felt really scary to share my voice. And then here I am and being like, okay, everybody, let's share our voices. The story is worth telling. Can you give me any background into your own journey of sharing your voice?

Rodrigo (05:44.858)
Yes, sharing my voice for me is something very vulnerable thing to do, you know, which there is a constant fight for, you know, accepting myself and actually being who I am to, you know, that super ego voice that tells you that, you know, you're not good enough, you don't speak English good enough, you know, and all that.

that society has conditioned us to think. But since my injury, I acquired a spinal cord injury and I have been through a lot of things. And one of the things that I have learned is like...

It's about our limited time in this place, in this universe. And so I don't want to waste my time while I'm here. So even though I share my voice in a way that is not perfect or in a way that is not sociable, acceptable, I will do it.

Bonnie (06:43.264)
Mm.

Rodrigo (07:08.134)
The other day I was having like a conversation with a Spanish, a Spanish speaker, you know, in Valencia and has been age since I spoke Spanish and I spoke Spanish with like half an hour even though I said a lot of words wrong, I kept speaking and you know, I went to, I went.

I went to have a lunch after that and then my mother was like, how was it? Listen, I spoke wrongly, but I spoke about love. So that's okay. And it's like, this is the thing that your intention should be, you know? It's not about how you will express yourself, but it's like, what is it that you really want to express? You know, the work needs it, you know? Who is it for, right?

Bonnie (07:41.846)
Mmm.

Bonnie (07:57.932)
Hmm.

Bonnie (08:05.451)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (08:07.027)
That is what I've been focusing on, how to share my voice, how, with who, and trying to make the best out of it and learning on the sharing and all the time making mistakes and being a fool.

Bonnie (08:31.126)
No!

Rodrigo (08:33.202)
and is leaping on me and there's no laughing about it and just keeping on going.

Bonnie (08:39.59)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it makes me think about sometimes when something is really difficult, especially with my body. Like if something's really difficult to do with my body, I will often laugh about it. And I mean, there was other alternatives besides laughing. So like I will laugh about it and be like, oh, that's...

Rodrigo (08:54.927)
Yeah.

Bonnie (09:02.486)
great. There's a learning place right there. And so that's a way we could do it where I like this. We're like, well, we could just not share. We could just not show up. We could just not be here. And I think as yoga teachers and knowing yoga teachers, if yoga teachers are listening to this, like you could not teach, you could not show up and be a leader. Or if you're a leader in your community, which everybody is a leader in some way, like you could not do it, but like you have something. And I love that you have shared that

because of your spinal cord injury, because of your own story, you've had to face your own life in a different sort of way that's giving you this perspective of the reality of time.

Rodrigo (09:49.36)
Yes.

Bonnie (09:50.139)
and how you want to use it.

Rodrigo (09:52.694)
Yeah. Until that time, I was a superhero. I was quite careless, to be honest. I was traveling a lot. I didn't think about... I didn't have the time to reflect, let's say. I was in that

Rodrigo (10:21.55)
we've been educated to join, right? Where we just kept going, never satisfied with anything. We are in the game. So it's like, before spinal cord injury, I was fully in the game. I wasn't in the rat race like my friends from London used to call, unfortunately.

Bonnie (10:50.303)
Mmm.

Rodrigo (10:52.614)
Yeah.

Bonnie (10:54.482)
And you were in London when you... Wait, were you in London? Because you were saying that you lived in Sweden then, or you moved to Sweden for a love, like speaking of love. Did you meet that person in London then?

Rodrigo (11:09.516)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (11:13.123)
Yes, I met her in London.

And I actually tried to, yeah, I actually tried to bring her to Brazil, but it didn't work out. So I went to Sweden instead. Yeah.

Bonnie (11:17.215)
and then you move to Sweden.

Bonnie (11:25.014)
Yeah. And then did you, did you learn how to speak Swedish after you moved there or were you like learning that before?

Rodrigo (11:34.158)
Now I learned after moving there. It took me eight years to learn Swedish, eight years. It's like going to a university or something. It's a very difficult language. And I was like, Rodrigo, are you doing this to yourself? This is bullshit, Rodrigo. No, come on. No, no, no. Go and play the guitar. Don't go there.

Bonnie (11:38.134)
Yeah.

Bonnie (11:49.828)
I have-

Bonnie (11:53.902)
I'm sorry.

Bonnie (12:03.895)
Mmm.

Rodrigo (12:04.014)
You know, I did. Don't regret. Yeah.

Bonnie (12:06.786)
Duh.

Yeah, that's so fascinating. Was there is, I guess where you were at, were you forced to speak Swedish as well and less English because of where you were at?

Rodrigo (12:20.886)
No, no, because like Swedes, they speak very good English, all of them. You know, the elderly, the elderly, sometimes, you know, you need to speak Swedish, but otherwise, you can get by speaking Swedish in Sweden very easily.

Bonnie (12:22.591)
Okay.

Bonnie (12:39.134)
Yeah. So this was like, totally like, like you didn't have to, but you're like, okay, I'm going to pick this up.

Rodrigo (12:44.066)
Yeah, yeah. Because I was living there, Bonnie, and I wanted to immerse myself in the culture. I love understanding people and how they live, how they feel. And I remember that the first year when I moved to Sweden, there is a Swedish director called Ingmar Bergman and...

He directs all these black and white films from the 60s, late 50s. And I watched all the filmography. I was very sad. But it's like, and I listened to a lot of Swedish folk music, it was translated, it was going to school. So it was like, it was a pleasant thing as well. I enjoy the process. I enjoy understanding what my...

you know, what my girlfriend's grandparents were talking to me and, you know, and all that. So I think it was good. Yeah. And I thank her. I thank her because she was not Japanese, because otherwise it would be worse for me. So it's like, Swedish, okay.

Bonnie (13:49.451)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Rodrigo (14:03.442)
I've been to Japan, like, yeah, yeah.

Bonnie (14:04.002)
If you got Japanese or if you had to learn Mandarin, that would either one.

Rodrigo (14:10.742)
That was too much. Yeah. I've been to Japan three, three months ago. I was there and for like three weeks and I couldn't understand anything. And so difficult as well. I was just like, wow, that is like, thank God. I didn't fell in love with a Japanese chick. Would be too much.

Bonnie (14:30.711)
And let's lean into talking about love. So you were just talking about love for a half hour with somebody who was speaking Spanish. And now like speaking of moving to Sweden with somebody who you loved, is that person still in your life?

Rodrigo (14:44.369)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (14:48.674)
Yeah, she is. She is. But she is my best friend today. You know, we're not together as a couple. You know, we broke up like...

Bonnie (14:52.983)
Mm-hmm.

Rodrigo (15:00.734)
A few years after I moved to Sweden, it didn't work out. Yeah. But it was still very good friends.

Bonnie (15:03.542)
Yeah.

Bonnie (15:09.152)
Yeah, I love hearing that because I think there's sometimes a story told where if you are breaking up then there's no... What is love? And what does love mean? And that it can be a very narrow thing of what that means.

Rodrigo (15:25.198)
Yes, yes, yeah, I agree with you.

Bonnie (15:28.086)
Mm. Yeah.

Rodrigo (15:30.862)
Yeah, Hollywood has made us think that romantic love, especially, is something that should last forever, is something that should be beautiful at the time. But it doesn't work like that. People fell out of love like they fell in love. And it's good to be aware of it because, unfortunately,

I see it happens to some of my friends. I see a lot of people that, you know, they are together because they need to pay the bills or they need to share the rent or they need to have a mortgage or they have kids. And they're not really in love anymore, you know? And I think you go through life without feeling this can be something very important that you're missing, right?

Bonnie (16:29.065)
Mm-hmm.

Rodrigo (16:30.686)
And it is something that brings you a lot of purpose as well. And if you don't share with anyone, you can use the same energy to put in yourself.

Bonnie (16:47.244)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (16:52.006)
I like to think this way.

Bonnie (16:55.57)
Yeah, yeah. And I don't know, I just think about the...

the impact of how you have gone through such transformation in your life. And again, like the life perspective you have on things like love, on things like time, on things like, like what we think matters a lot. Yeah. How old were you when you had your spinal cord injury?

Rodrigo (17:22.759)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (17:28.759)
I was 33.

Rodrigo (17:32.642)
I was the age of Jesus.

Bonnie (17:39.04)
We'll just start calling you Jesus here.

Rodrigo (17:42.286)
Yeah, today you're produced, if that means something. I was like, well, thank you so much. Is that a present? Yeah, I was 33. I had just, I had just broke up with Annali. We have just broken up. And then I went traveling. I was like, okay, cool. It was like seven years of relationship. And then I took a backpack and then I did,

Bonnie (17:45.29)
Rodrigo has his...

Rodrigo (18:12.718)
I did a trip around South America for like four months. And in that trip, I fell from a cliff and I broke my back. So it came like all at once at 33, which was nine years ago. I'm 42 now.

Bonnie (18:28.267)
Mm.

Yeah.

Rodrigo (18:31.086)
A lot has changed.

Bonnie (18:33.778)
A lot has changed.

Rodrigo (18:35.926)
Yeah. Sometimes, sometimes the Facebook, I don't use Facebook very often, but it's like they show the memories, you know, they know that thing, memories. And then, you know, I see the standing version of myself, like I can't even recognize, I think I'm another person. I think like I have two lives, you know, two retrievals, one after and one before.

Bonnie (18:38.464)
Yeah.

Bonnie (18:48.172)
Yeah.

Bonnie (18:57.226)
Mmm.

Bonnie (19:01.608)
One in a way you do.

Rodrigo (19:05.614)
Yeah. I think so. Yeah, I think so.

Bonnie (19:06.495)
Yeah.

Bonnie (19:10.534)
Yeah, well, and there's lessons and things like, I don't know. There's things that you have learned now because of your injury that you could not have learned, right? Or maybe not learned in the same ways or maybe not felt in the same ways. And like, it's a shitty thing to be injured. Whether it's a short-term thing or a long-term thing, it's like a life-changing sort of thing. And I

Rodrigo (19:32.292)
It is.

Bonnie (19:39.19)
think about pain and I, you kind of refer to chronic pain as well within some of your writing. And, you know, I had quite a bit of low back pain and SI joint pain this past year and a half. And I think as somebody who, if you're backpacking, backpacking for four months and you're like so mobile around countries and doing things and to have it be such a part of your identity.

Right? And thinking of the joy that you have in moving your body. And as I talk to different teachers or people who identify themselves as movers, it's such a facing of yourself of like a who am I? What am I doing? What is my life if I can't do, you know, fill in the blank? Like whatever it is.

And I know that like I've faced that in different times with different temporary injuries. My back will still talk to me and my SI joint will still talk to me in interesting ways. And so it's made me look at this, look at pain and look at identity in a whole different sort of way. So I'm sure that that's like definitely a piece of, like part of your journey. And can you speak then to like,

Tell me about how you feel like your identity shifted or was forced to shift.

Rodrigo (21:13.71)
Yeah.

The first thing, it's like when you go to trauma like this, for those who are listening, I broke my third vertebrae off my back. I had the thoracic spinal cord injury, which means that I'm paralyzed from the chest down, the nipple area. And the doctor told me straight away that I wouldn't be able to walk again. And the first thing is like, you were looking for representation.

Rodrigo (21:46.39)
You are like, you're Googling, you are on the internet. And then you see a rehab instructor came to talk to you and you see that he has three kids. And then you start thinking, wow, okay, cool. I can still father children or, you know, you see somebody else driving, you see somebody else traveling, you know, with spinal cord injury. And then you start building yourself, you know, new.

opportunities based on that, you know. And then you do a little introspection to see, okay, what my abilities are, you know, what I still do and what will still bring me joy, right, that I can still do. So there is a whole lot of learning and at the same time, accepting, you know. It is a place that

You know, it feels uncomfortable, but at the same time, you know, there is a lot of exploration, curiosity, you know, and beauty as well. You know, it's discovering new things, knowing that, you know, you can be this and then you can be that, you know, and resonates what you feel, you know, good while you're doing things.

Bonnie (23:11.604)
Mm-hmm.

Rodrigo (23:13.046)
I was very lucky that after two weeks I broke my back, I was at this rehabilitation center in Janssjöping, south of Sweden. And I complained to my physiotherapist about muscle spasticity. And she came to the room and then she told me, Rodrigo, if you do these stretches in your bed,

you might be able to reduce your spaticity. And then she was showing me the stretch that you pull your knee towards your chest, which is, I think is the number 13 on the Bikram sequence. I used to practice Bikram yoga in London before my accident. So I knew. Then I told her, Anna, this is yoga. You're showing me yoga.

Bonnie (23:47.254)
Mm-hmm.

Rodrigo (24:09.402)
And then she smiled at me and then she left the room. And then she says, she says like, I don't know if it's yoga, but that's gonna help you.

And then once she left the room, I took my computer that was beside my bed, then I googled wheelchair yoga, yoga for paraplegics or something. And then I saw someone teaching and practicing yoga in a wheelchair. You know, it was Maffa Sanford. Then I knew that yoga I could still do. So, you know, when you lose everything, when you lose contact with your identity, in my case was like, I will, I,

I was like the traveler, I was the bartender, I was the DJ, I was the guy who has studied art, theater, I was very outgoing. And then I was like building this new identity slowly to see the things that I could still do and the things that I could still like. And I'm still doing it. And I think the beauty of it is that we're never gonna be ready.

Bonnie (25:10.542)
Mm-hmm.

Rodrigo (25:16.154)
We can live to 100, we're gonna be 1990 and building this. What am I gonna mean? I don't like this anymore. Maybe I'm gonna try something else. Right, maybe it's not Rodrigo the Travel anymore. Maybe it's gonna be Rodrigo the Yoga Teacher. Or maybe now it's gonna be Rodrigo the Climber or, Rodrigo, I don't know, the dog lover, whatever it is. I think as long as you are...

Bonnie (25:23.374)
Mmm.

Rodrigo (25:44.95)
enjoying your, you know, where you at, it's like, you're good.

Bonnie (25:50.359)
Mmm.

One of the phrases that I really like to say or to remind people of is that you're more than one thing.

Rodrigo (26:01.234)
Mmm, you are.

Bonnie (26:02.17)
And that's right. And that's what I hear you saying is you're like this and this and this and this and this and this and this and not.

not limiting yourself that you're just one thing and seeing like two weeks in and like this just speaks so much to your awareness of yourself and of the way that you view the world which everybody we all come with like different ways we like view the world and the perspective of the lens we look out with right but if you're two weeks in you're laying there in your bed and you're feeling a lot of spastic movement in your muscles and you're not feeling like you're like what's

happening. And for somebody to give you one thing, right? Like pull your knee to your chest and you're like, wait a second, I recognize this. And you start drawing lines between things and to see where that's like brought you for yoga. But then also in this, like you did have to form a new, you did have to expand on what your identity was. That's what I would say. Because it's not forming a new, like it's all in there. Like we're all

All these parts of us are in there, but it's just like expanding. Be like, okay, what if I push out on this piece of identity and this, and what do I wanna explore here? It all of a sudden like gave you the opportunity in some ways to be like, okay, now I'm given this, now where do I like, like what pedals do I push on?

Rodrigo (27:12.634)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (27:30.486)
Yeah. Exactly. You know, it's being open to try stuff out and see what resonates with you the most. You know. Yeah. Because like there is, you know, a lot of time that, especially right after that, you know, the identity that you have is that, you know,

Bonnie (27:42.103)
Mm-hmm.

Rodrigo (27:59.974)
you get to feel a lot of, you know...

You feel sorry for yourself, Bonnie, and that is not a nice place to be, you know? So you want to get out of there. So, you know, you got to be aware enough to see where there is light left, you know? What brings you joy? You know, what makes your day a little less blue? You know, what is it?

There are a lot of things out there that can do that. And you can be fully paralyzed. You can go through trauma. Maybe I am too naive or maybe too hopeful, but I feel that folks can still find the light. Can still make life worth living and enjoy things.

Bonnie (29:05.154)
Mmm.

Rodrigo (29:07.402)
And part of your identity is there, right? It's not all about who you are, but it's like, it's what you do. You know, what do you do? Who do you serve? What are you here doing? What are you doing here? Are you making money? What is it?

Wow, oh, are you serving or are you helping?

What do you hear for?

Bonnie (29:39.55)
Yeah. Well, and you're speaking nine years separation from this space and time. And also like the being honest about like.

Bonnie (29:52.482)
That space is hard. And I think there's so many people that can feel exactly what you're saying to be like, I'm feeling sorry for myself and there's been a shift in my life and maybe it is divorce and maybe it is losing a job and maybe it is losing a physical ability and maybe it is like losing a family member and like grief and maybe it is like.

Like there's so many things that we could hold in life to be like well What is left like why am I even here and doing this like it's too hard it's too much effort to like switch and find it and it is like a Belly it is a belly that we're in those times in our lives or we're like I don't know to be like I don't know and it is heavy and it isn't very fun to be in those spaces

Rodrigo (30:47.644)
Yeah.

No, it's not fun, but you need to meet it without much resistance, you know, because if you resist to what comes, it lasts longer.

Bonnie (31:00.89)
Mm.

Bonnie (31:06.786)
Hmm.

Rodrigo (31:08.215)
in a

Rodrigo (31:12.302)
As soon as you try to accept it and live with it, embrace it, the easier it gets. And it is like, I am speaking as someone that has acquired a disability, but, you know, life is dukkha, right? As the Buddha says, like, it is suffering. If you're alive, you're suffering. There is no other way. So...

Bonnie (31:20.502)
Hmm

Bonnie (31:36.776)
Mm.

Rodrigo (31:41.206)
I guess the path of it is to not resist, which is very challenging to do, because the super ego doesn't shut up. It's like, yes, sorry for you, look at him, he can do a lot of more things, or you cannot do a seers arse, and how are you gonna be a yoga teacher? Just like, shut up, let me be.

Bonnie (31:51.391)
Hahahaha

Bonnie (32:05.442)
Hmm.

Rodrigo (32:11.13)
I'm happy.

Bonnie (32:11.362)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. When I think maybe there's a piece of resonance with you, where I found you and I was like, ah, this person, there's a similar language here in this, because I think there's so much of the way that I try to walk in the world that is this, but what do we take from this? Okay, but where can I move with this? Okay, but how do you...

how do you move this thing? I mean, this is like the lotus out of the mud. How do we take this thing that now that I'm holding and take it somewhere else and let it grow in a way that maybe is unexpected or maybe that wasn't planned, but there's potential for it to move. That I have the option, I'm like, okay, and I will even talk to myself sometimes, I'm like, okay, Bonnie.

So this is how you're feeling and you have a choice. And I will like, sometimes look at myself in the mirror and I will, and it's helpful at all, like get close so I can like see my eyes and I just kind of stare myself down and I will like talk to myself and I'm like, okay, Bonnie, this is how you're feeling and you have an option here. It's like, you can stay here. You can keep being upset about this or want this or like.

Rodrigo (33:11.64)
I'm out.

Bonnie (33:36.566)
whatever, I don't know, whatever the story is that's like trying to be loud. And then I'll say, and you will continue to feel like you're feeling if that's what you want to choose. And you have another option, which is like to soften a little bit, to ask some more questions, to maybe step somewhere new, to like change in some sort of way. It's a different, like both of them are gonna like...

Rodrigo (33:48.527)
Yes.

Bonnie (34:06.466)
Like you have two choices and I will give myself sometimes that pause moment and say like, which one? Which one do you wanna pick up? Like you have a choice here.

Rodrigo (34:16.721)
That's a wise thing to do.

Bonnie (34:21.354)
Yeah, well, stare down in the mirror.

Rodrigo (34:24.218)
Yeah, let's clip on it. Right?

Yeah, it takes time, you know, Bonnie, it takes time.

You know, and it requires a lot of patience, things that, you know, is a skill that needs to be developed as well. If you, if you experience trauma, you know, you need to be patient because things works at its own time, you know. There are a lot of things that doesn't depend on you, right? Some things you need to be proactive, you can change. Some other things.

You need to invite acceptance in and just lie down and wait. You know, it's creating that balance, you know, that equanimity of, you know, press the pedal of acceleration and, you know, press the pedal of breaks, you know, it's time to consume, but it's time to produce. It's time to, you know, to intellectualize. It's time to integrate, you know.

Bonnie (35:12.15)
Hmm.

Rodrigo (35:37.778)
Sometimes it's time to change and sometimes it's time just to let life guide you, whatever you want to guide you to.

Bonnie (35:44.895)
Mmm.

Yeah, yeah. What I like how you're saying to like, like this is speaking to the resistance of things and to, I mean, I think this is part of the gift of yoga. It's part of the gift of somatic work, meaning like, like trying to pay attention to the insides of your body to be like, okay, where, like, what am I feeling where? And just letting yourself sit in it and not grip onto things so tightly and being like, there was also.

there's always gonna be a difficulty, right? There's always gonna be a space of something we can find that like is quote unquote, unperfect or something that we need to work on or something we want to work on or something that feels hard. And if there's not something, life can show us something. And meeting it with some grace, grace for ourselves. And...

Rodrigo (36:42.101)
Mm. Yes.

Bonnie (36:45.735)
and not a rush, like not in a rush to change anything.

Rodrigo (36:54.168)
Mmm, that's beautiful.

Yeah, no rush. Tenderness, kindness, compassion, patience.

Bonnie (37:00.288)
Uh-huh.

Yeah.

Bonnie (37:07.394)
Yeah. And I think that's for me, those are some of the things that I felt like I found when I came to yoga. Is this whole list that you said, right? Like this non-arash tenderness, compassion, like ease. And there's an effort in it. There is like a way you have to show up still. But it's, I felt like there was such like a meat of both things when I found yoga.

Rodrigo (37:08.519)
those.

Rodrigo (37:30.182)
Yeah.

Bonnie (37:36.051)
with a different language that I hadn't heard or felt before.

Rodrigo (37:41.326)
Yeah, it's something that you need to cultivate, Bonnie. You need to plant the seeds. You don't show up one day and it's like, oh, I've got kindness towards myself. Far from it. It's not that easy, you know. It's a...

Bonnie (37:58.978)
now.

Rodrigo (38:04.206)
It's something that we are very privileged because, you know, we work with yoga, so we have the tools, right? So we can integrate them in our lives.

Bonnie (38:17.922)
Mm-hmm.

Rodrigo (38:20.654)
I don't know, I think yoga has all the answers I've always been asking. You know, it's all, everything's in there. Okay. And, uh, if you get the time to practice, if you get the time to, to integrate, you know, you can, you can have access to, you know, to tenderness, to compassion, to love, you know, to, to Atman, to Purusha, to, to that place where, you know,

Rodrigo (38:49.882)
You are okay. You know, you're doing well there. There is not much suffering going on, you know.

Bonnie (38:59.729)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (39:01.045)
Yeah, it's the heart.

Bonnie (39:02.274)
Hmm.

Bonnie (39:06.738)
Yeah. Do you feel like...

Rodrigo (39:08.198)
Bring in, bring in.

Bonnie (39:11.33)
Yeah. Do you feel like when you found yoga, when you really, do you feel like when it was after your accident and being like, oh, this is yoga, do you feel like in some ways that was the beginning of your yoga journey, even though you had practiced before? Like, mm-hmm.

Rodrigo (39:29.202)
Clearly, yes. Yeah, yeah, of course, of course.

Rodrigo (39:38.574)
I used to study theater and work in a bar, has a bartender and has a DJ in London and throughout my middle twenties. And I used to have this rock and roll lifestyle. And my friend once invited me. She told me, Rodrigo, I found something that is gonna be perfect for us, hot yoga. We're gonna sweat all the booze we drink in the weekend. We're gonna go there twice a week. We're gonna feel brand new.

And I was like, okay, let's go there. And it's like, that was yoga for me back then, you know. And I remember how ableist it was because, you know, I was inside the room, 30 plus students, everyone young, everyone fit, everyone like, you know, healthy, coat in coat. And, you know, for me, that was yoga, right? That was yoga, okay.

Bonnie (40:29.664)
Mm.

Rodrigo (40:36.782)
It was very physically demanding, but at the same time was detoxifying. I used to sweat all the booze, my tongue used to be redder, the whites of my eyes used to be very white, my skin. And then I knew, well, this is good for my body, but my toe was only that. But after my injury, that incorporated adaptive yoga into my rehabilitation process.

It's like I used to say that before was yoga for the body and then afterwards was yoga for the soul. Because as my body was limited, it still is, I was more into the subtle practice, which is having an embodied experience, being in your body. I haven't been in my body before while I was...

Bonnie (41:13.754)
Mmm.

Rodrigo (41:35.162)
practicing hot yoga, we can call it like fitness, right? That's not yoga because I was there just like sweating my ass out and doing 23 posts twice, you know, that was it. That wasn't yoga at all because I wasn't conscious. I wasn't in my body when I was there. I was just moving. So like incorporating yoga into my rehabilitation process.

even though my body back then wasn't a place that was.

welcoming, you know, because I have just broken it. You know, my body was a place that remind me the things that I could no longer do, remind me of pain, anxiety, things that was not pleasant. But even though sitting down on the futon in front of my TV, you know, or at the rehab station and practicing yoga and being in my body with everything that was on it.

with everything that was going on at that time. That was a powerful experience, Bonnie, because I have nurtured this enormous sense of self-compassion that I didn't have before.

Bonnie (42:52.213)
Mmm.

Rodrigo (42:55.423)
And I tell you something, I always tell this to folks, that self-compassion is very close to acceptance, to less resistance. And the practice of yoga brought that back to me. Actually, I didn't have it, so it was like, give it to me. And then I started realizing that it's much more than asana, it's much more than movement.

Bonnie (43:14.859)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (43:23.776)
which make me a little bit pissed off because that is all we get. But it's much more powerful than that.

Bonnie (43:33.449)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (43:34.363)
So it changed the whole game.

Bonnie (43:37.367)
Hmm

Rodrigo (43:39.526)
because I started.

You know, feeling whole again. I stopped feeling broken or feeling sore for myself. You know, I start seeing things in a different way. You know, all the leaves that I told you, you know, kindness, tenderness, passion, patience, it all came through yoga and mindfulness.

Bonnie (44:02.891)
Yeah.

Bonnie (44:12.654)
How do you, like listening to you kind of share this, like one, it's so, so beautiful. Like you're saying it so beautifully. And so it has me wondering what your definition of spirituality is.

Rodrigo (44:31.758)
Wow! Spirituality, it is believing in the unknown for me.

you know, and lean into that, you know, with a sense of curiosity.

and non-judgment.

Right. It's knowing that like I came from a very spiritual family. My grandfather was like, you know, a student of Buddhism. Mama is a free spirit. Mama, she practiced karma yoga every day. You know, she even though she doesn't do any asana, she is a yogi much more than I am. And

I grew up in a household that, you know, we believe in the unknown, not religion, but spirituality, right? We believe in the connection that, you know, you are in Portland, I am in Southeast Brazil. I believe that there is something connecting us, Bonnie, right? Through space, through time, we are connected. You know, I see you. You know.

Bonnie (45:34.286)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (45:45.087)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (45:50.528)
down.

Rodrigo (45:54.17)
That for me is spirituality. It's not taking things black and white. It's not being too pragmatic. It's not being like they trained us to be when we're going to school, you know, individual. No, it's seeing the collective. And when I mean the collective, everything's on it. The suffering, the injustice, you know, the oppression, everything it's seeing is there. And it's part of you. You know, you are on it.

Bonnie (46:08.919)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (46:19.348)
Mmm.

Rodrigo (46:24.654)
and everything is on you. We cannot see it, we just feel it.

Bonnie (46:31.846)
Mmm.

Bonnie (46:35.682)
I love that answer. And also like at this moment, I'm like, I would like to jump through the screen. I just want to like, hug you. I just want to like, I'm like, it is that I so, I so agree. And I, I know for my own story, I think it was also yoga and

the way different teachers showed up and the way that there was suddenly space, I created space for yoga to be in my life that I found my own spirituality as well because of the practice of yoga and because of the community of yoga because of the way that we were invited to pay attention and because it is this internal curiosity, it's this internal story. And so I always tell people, I tell teachers all the time, like trust the yoga.

Like you might show up and not feel like you're like doing anything or like people aren't responding in a way, but you can't not be in your head the whole time. All of us, like when we're like having an experience. And even if like, I want to speak to even like, when you felt like it was a full, just like body experience when you're doing hot yoga and you're DJing and you're like bartending and you're doing these things.

Rodrigo (47:43.346)
Exactly.

Bonnie (48:01.302)
there was something still that you found, there were still experiences in it. Maybe it was a long time ago now, so it's hard to like get into the brain of, you know, Rod Therrigo, who's like that in his 20s, like back then doing the things, but you still had an hour where you were just with yourself in your own head, telling yourself different stories of like, this is hard, but I'm gonna stay here and do this thing, right? Because it is hard.

Rodrigo (48:29.202)
Yes, it is.

Bonnie (48:29.654)
or this is hot or this is whatever. Like, so there was stories in there that remained that were pieces enough, like it met you exactly where you could be met. And maybe a different practice couldn't have met you then. You would have maybe rejected it, but you could meet that and it gave you maybe enough of a seed that when it showed back up in a different form, you could recognize it.

Rodrigo (48:42.203)
Yes.

Bonnie (48:55.734)
because you had created a relationship with it and then you allowed the relationship to deepen. And so I think I, I don't know, because different people find yoga from different angles and they need a different type of yoga in different times of their lives. And so I kind of want to celebrate that yoga for you too.

Rodrigo (49:01.713)
Yes, I.

Bonnie (49:20.342)
because you were able to recognize it when this physical therapist is like, hey, do this and you're like, wait a second, this is yoga. Wait a second, I haven't lost. I haven't lost everything. You were in this identity crisis of like, now what? Now what do I do? And you're like, oh, I could still do that. And so then it became this line. Yeah, yes. Yeah.

Rodrigo (49:20.718)
Yes.

Rodrigo (49:27.939)
I knew that, yeah.

Rodrigo (49:40.526)
I can stupidly yogi, yeah. Yeah. I'm grateful for that. Yeah.

Bonnie (49:50.794)
Well, now like you, you really do, you know, you, you kind of share that you're like, okay, I'm, I'm working here. I'm, I'm here to, to be the, like, look at me, like, look at me. I'm in a wheelchair. I'm doing the things like you can do it too. And if you have been in these immense trauma places, um, there's still space for you. Right. And that, and I like that the call out for.

for spaces being like there's quite ableist yoga out there. Yes, like yes.

Rodrigo (50:29.935)
Yeah, it is because, yeah because like somehow it excludes people, you know.

Bonnie (50:31.802)
And also it's more than that.

Rodrigo (50:42.39)
If I was Rodrigo, post accident, I'd like to practice, I wouldn't be able to. And yoga is not something to be excluded, Bonnie. You know, you cannot exclude folks from this practice.

Bonnie (50:56.962)
Mm-mm.

Rodrigo (50:58.666)
Everyone should have a place in the table.

Bonnie (51:02.487)
Absolutely.

Rodrigo (51:06.242)
Right? Do you agree with me? Yeah.

Bonnie (51:06.77)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, I absolutely agree with you. You know, it was...

Rodrigo (51:13.146)
Because I agree with you that it was true that I am grateful, but looking at how it was back then and how it still is, I live in Sweden, right? I live in Malmo, the third biggest city in Sweden, it's like 300,000. Sweden is my small country. And I remember that I went out and all these yoga studios in Sweden,

to try to find a place to teach and they all teach hot yoga. And they look like very mechanical, all the beautiful girls wearing all the leggings, going at the same time, all the namaste's. And it's like, folks that practice hot yoga that don't even say good morning to their neighbor, what's going on, Bonnie?

Bonnie (52:09.492)
Mm-hmm.

Rodrigo (52:11.546)
Like, come on, what is this? Let's stop the theater, you know, because...

Bonnie (52:12.927)
Yeah.

Bonnie (52:16.843)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (52:23.854)
I don't know, I get a little bit angry when I go there. I don't like anger.

Bonnie (52:28.901)
I want, well, I want to hear you angry. I think there's a piece of that that's important.

Rodrigo (52:32.426)
Because like, yeah, because like, you know, there are so many, you know, so many things that could be improved in someone's life after trauma, if they have access to practice like yoga, you know, and that particular thing, I went to about 10 or 12 studios, none of them were accessible, structural accessibility, ramps and this stuff, none of them were.

You know, some folks, they look down on me patronizing like I was a fake yogi. What are you doing? You're going to wheelchair. What is this? You know, it's just like, there's so much ableism out there. And I, I ended up teaching my students in a community center, you know, in a basketball pitch, you know, 12 folks in a basketball pitch in a park, just beside a public wheelchair-friendly restroom. That's where I teach by the beach.

Bonnie (53:29.474)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Rodrigo (53:30.842)
You know, and it's like, you know, sometimes you want to help us. Like sometimes like this, you know, you just need to.

You just need to become louder.

Bonnie (53:46.276)
Mmm.

Rodrigo (53:50.994)
Which goes against my personality.

Rodrigo (53:57.579)
I don't want that.

Bonnie (53:59.213)
Sometimes you just want to help, but sometimes you have to get louder. I mean, mic drop.

Rodrigo (54:05.242)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like my mother, my mother's loud, you know. And I do a check-in first, you know, I check in with myself. I have energy. Yes, Rodrigo, you have energy. Okay, be loud. You have energy? No, okay. You know, because when I'm loud, I need to go to my room and self-regulate myself, you know, again, you know, I need to come back.

because I get out. My mom is, she is an activist, you know, if we go to a restaurant and there is someone parking, you know, a car on a disabled friendly parking lot and the person doesn't have a disability, she will shout, she will go there and she'll like, I don't know what you mean, why you were here? You know, and I'm all like, okay, mom, she's like, no, we're cool, you know, we can park over here, no, no.

Bonnie (54:34.2)
Yeah.

Bonnie (54:59.03)
And she was like, no, no.

Just the hack. But not today, not on my watch.

Rodrigo (55:05.223)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (55:09.486)
Yeah, so sometimes you wanted to say that to yoga studios, you want to bring them awareness and say like, listen, we could offer the same practice to this population as well. Have you considered doing that? But it's like they're so brainwashed on how yoga should look like that they don't even listen to what you have to say.

Bonnie (55:20.213)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (55:36.171)
Yeah.

Bonnie (55:39.346)
In my work with yoga teachers around the world, and mentoring so many different people, it's fascinating to hear about how different countries have some types of yoga and not others. And where some countries, it looks like it's very restorative, like a super restorative practice, or it's Ashtanga. Like those are...

That's what yoga looks like in some countries. And in so many countries, there's not yoga. And there's also like religious organizations and cultures that will tell their people not to practice yoga. Because yoga does come from a religious tradition as well. And so I think that there is stories in that, but I think there's such a big space.

kind of like how you're speaking to like, we maybe were taught that there was a binary, like there was like you're either in or out, let's either this or that. And I'm like, I think there's space in yoga for it not to be that. I definitely approach it not from a religious space, but as an open field of a lot of different things. But I think there's so many places in the world. And I know I've, I can't remember, there's somebody I worked with, I cannot remember if she was in Sweden or Norway, but just like the lack of studios or the lack of

variety of type of yoga that's practiced is a real thing. And for Vinyasa or like any sort of sequencing that's not Bikram, not Ashtanga, not like that is actually a fairly newer idea for a lot of places and is really tricky for some people to get in to teach something that doesn't feel robotic, that feels more explorative like with your body, even if it's more ableist and not even like, like just anything outside of restorative or like...

Bikram or Ashtanga, like anything outside of those lines is sometimes really difficult to bring to a community or is unknown.

Rodrigo (57:42.445)
Yeah.

Bonnie (57:47.118)
So I think it's interesting. It's interesting to, like, I wouldn't have known that had I not do the work that I do, but it is like a, like there's a lot of space for growth. And so that you are there and even just starting the conversation for people to, maybe they didn't even think that somebody in a wheelchair could be a yogi. And now they're like, you leave and they like turned you away and they said, no.

Rodrigo (57:47.396)
I agree with you.

Bonnie (58:16.91)
And also they have been given something that has like expanded their mindset too. That doesn't mean that they're like making the choices to make it possible. That doesn't mean like at this very moment. And yet you might be like the brand new thing that they hadn't even considered. Um, it doesn't make it again, like maybe possible at the second for them to like, they're, they need to like, they need to make motions for this stuff to change. Um,

Rodrigo (58:45.551)
Well.

Bonnie (58:46.198)
but I like that this conversation is even happening because there's a lot of places that don't even realize that it needs to happen.

Bonnie (58:55.777)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (58:55.983)
Yes.

Bonnie (58:58.21)
Mm, again, like then, yeah. And then, and just like the process of you, you're like, okay, get louder. Cause there was a lot to change.

Rodrigo (58:58.63)
There is a lot to be changed.

Rodrigo (59:08.898)
Yeah, yeah, it's a process, you know, getting louder, coming back, getting louder. Sometimes you need to get loud, you know, you need to show up. You need to, you need to bring representativeness to places and show that, you know, it is possible, you know, it is possible. One thing that, one thing that brings me

Bonnie (59:14.53)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (59:37.698)
a sense of responsibility, Bonnie, is that, you know.

I have chronic pain, I have like neuropathic pain, and for like four years, the medical model, they treat me like a mechanic treat a car. They fill me with antidepressants, with opioids, medication like gabapentin, Lyrica, help me make me feel like a zombie. I had a lot of cognitive side effects out of it. And, you know.

Bonnie (59:56.654)
Hmm.

Rodrigo (01:00:13.558)
until like four years afterwards, a neurologist looked at me and said, there's nothing else we can offer you. You better live with your pain. But it's like, none of them, none of them. Four years of medicine here in Brazil and in Europe, like in Scandinavia and in Brazil, I saw about over 10 neurologists. None of them told me about yoga. None of them told me about

Bonnie (01:00:41.488)
Hmm

Rodrigo (01:00:42.89)
mindfulness or anything. Like, you know, for them I was something to be fixed. They look at my diagnosis, they didn't look at Rodrigo. You know, but, you know, parallel to it, simultaneously, I was practicing yoga, I was studying it and I was practicing mindfulness and studying it as well. So, I was somehow healing myself, you know. So, I know that's like, I got here,

Bonnie (01:00:52.642)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (01:01:12.534)
was not because of the help of the medical model as well. It was like, you know, this emotional instability, I've got pain right now, but it's like, I can still do things. All these relationships that I created with my body, with my sensations, with where I am in life right now, came from yoga, right? And for me to go there and help disabled folks.

Like I do, I teach in a rehabilitation center where I show them the tools, folks that has, you know, just came out of, you know, an accident or something. I know how life change this can be, you know. And I know how it should be offered, like spread wild, not just yoga studios, but like rehab centers, elderly care homes.

Bonnie (01:02:02.839)
Hmm.

Rodrigo (01:02:10.618)
rehabilitation centers, community centers, organizations. You know, disabled folks need to know that yoga is for them and needs to know that yoga can help them. Actually, not disabled folks, whatever body you're in, yoga can help you in a more holistic way. Right?

Bonnie (01:02:31.178)
Mm-hmm.

Rodrigo (01:02:32.662)
And as I represent this population, I bring representativity into it. I think it's my responsibility to do that.

Bonnie (01:02:43.279)
Mm.

Rodrigo (01:02:45.73)
And it's like, it has given my life like this sense of purpose as well, because I love what I do, you know. I do love what I do so much. I love, I love, I love, I love what I do. Even though sometimes I need to get louder, which I don't like to do very often, but it's like, I still love what I do.

Bonnie (01:03:02.827)
Mm.

Bonnie (01:03:07.434)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:03:10.986)
and you're doing it in ways that are working. Like how does it feel to be in the room when other people show up who maybe are new to yoga, who are also in a wheelchair, and for you to be able to gift them this opportunity? How does it feel?

Rodrigo (01:03:31.314)
It feels amazing.

It feels amazing because like...

Rodrigo (01:03:39.482)
You're facilitating yoga for those who need it the most.

Rodrigo (01:03:45.574)
When you deal with grief, Bonnie, there is no bullshit there. There is no theater. You know, everyone is in there, right? And it feels so meaningful for me because like, you know, you can see at the beginning of the class that some of the students has fierce eyes, you know, they show up like this.

Bonnie (01:03:51.879)
Mm. Mm-mm. Mm.

Bonnie (01:04:12.131)
Hmm.

Rodrigo (01:04:13.582)
or they show up moving a lot because you can clearly see that they are in pain, and you bring themselves back to their bodies, not being pretentious here, but you can take a little bit of suffering out of the situation at that moment. At the end of the class, they don't have ferocious eyes anymore. This muscle between the eyebrows is relaxed. You can see...

Bonnie (01:04:32.011)
Hmm.

Bonnie (01:04:41.41)
Mm-hmm.

Rodrigo (01:04:42.426)
the corner of their mouth going up a little bit, the way they talk, and then they go home. Right?

Bonnie (01:04:47.212)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (01:04:51.334)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rodrigo (01:04:55.795)
You hope someone. You go through trauma, not bypassing it, Pony. You need to embrace it. You cannot distract yourself from it. You need to, okay, yeah, I've got this. This is my baby. It's like, I will take care of you. It's using, like yoga has a tool of compassion, of love, of bringing someone back to their life to see that.

Bonnie (01:05:08.876)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (01:05:23.443)
You know, life right now is not the best, but you can still make something beautiful out of it.

Bonnie (01:05:31.361)
Mmm.

Rodrigo (01:05:32.574)
Yes, there is pain here, there is discomfort, but what else is here? You know, let's find out, let's be curious, let's dive in.

Bonnie (01:05:41.122)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (01:05:46.59)
And my work now consists in two fronts. Like once, in one side is actually, is the harder side. Is to tell disabled folks that yoga is for them. Because I found quite challenging to do that. Because by society, the way they treat us, we're broken.

We are invalid, there is something missing on us. We don't produce anymore, we don't pay taxes, so we are second class citizens, right? You know, good enough, that's it, you're disabled. So for me to tell disabled folks, hang on a minute, Kim, you can see this practice here, and then they Google yoga, and then they see these beautiful girls, these skinny, beautiful men doing like, you know, these beautiful asanas and waterfalls. They are like, they are very skeptical. They tell me, Rodrigo, that's not for me.

Bonnie (01:06:19.106)
Hmm...

Rodrigo (01:06:40.834)
I'm not flexible enough. So it's like, one part of my work is, it's actually telling disabled folks, yes, yoga is for you. I'm not bullshitting it, it's not something that I learned in India or I read books about it, it's something that I hadn't embodied, I experienced, I'm a living proof of it. So believe in me. So they start, they take class with me, they start practicing and then their life change, boom.

Bonnie (01:06:50.271)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:07:08.053)
Mm.

Rodrigo (01:07:09.342)
And the second front is to try to make yoga teachers aware that if they want to make the yoga career purposeful, I'm not talking about karma yoga or pro bono classes, but I'm talking about having a more compassionate look towards the folks that have non-normative bodies.

the elderly, the disabled, like, come on, educate yourselves, go out and serve once a week, please do. Learn the tools, learn how to speak with someone with disability, learn how to hold space for them, work on your assumptions, work on your ableism, see folks through their disability, through their wheelchair, treat them like you like to be treated.

Bonnie (01:07:50.286)
Mm.

Bonnie (01:08:00.93)
Mmm.

Bonnie (01:08:05.963)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (01:08:08.338)
So it's like, in one side I am doing that, you know, educating the other teacher, and the other side I'm like pushing disabled folks, like, okay, we can't do this. Let's do this together. So it's like, you know, sometimes I need to shout, I need to be loud in both places. Sometimes, you know, I need to just step back and see where it takes me, you know. Is that equanimity, is that equilibrium that I've been telling you? That we gotta...

Bonnie (01:08:24.352)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (01:08:38.179)
nurtured as well.

Bonnie (01:08:40.274)
Mm-hmm.

Rodrigo (01:08:44.078)
which I'm working on it, it's been like five years now that I sleep, I eat, I breathe adaptive yoga, everything. I'm brand new in the yoga business, let's say. It's not imposed on syndrome or anything, but I feel that I have so much to learn, Bonnie. I'm doing so much, but there is so much out there that I can't be done. It's like, you know.

Bonnie (01:09:13.758)
Yeah. I know how you, I know how you feel in that. I'm like, I'm just the beginning and there's so much to learn. Like I agree with that.

Rodrigo (01:09:15.202)
It's a beautiful journey.

Rodrigo (01:09:23.022)
Yeah. I like where I am now, but it's like, you know, there'll be a lot of dedication still, you know, for me to...

you know, to get to a place where, you know, not being satisfied, but you know, you will try to live according to, you know, what you're here for, like, you know, being like in that place that you acquired that long glass joy, which is for me serving, you know, helping.

Bonnie (01:09:54.958)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (01:10:08.239)
Yeah. Mmm.

Thank you.

There's a line, there's, gosh, like, I'm like, I'm just going to go back and listen to this last, I'm just going to enjoy your words of this last several minutes that you have shared. But one of the things that's, one of the lines that I really loved was that

Bonnie (01:10:33.862)
In grief, there is no theater.

Rodrigo (01:10:38.363)
No.

That's enough. And it's like, in grief, you know, have you ever been in a room with folks full of grief, Bonnie?

Bonnie (01:10:43.434)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (01:10:54.418)
collective grief.

Bonnie (01:10:56.51)
Yes. I mean, grief looks like so many different things, right? Like grief, yes. So like, yes, and it's not... That looks like a lot of different things, different rooms. Yeah.

Rodrigo (01:11:01.238)
Yeah. It's like, it's like, yeah, yeah. And it's like, everyone is soft.

Bonnie (01:11:12.366)
Mmm, that's true.

Rodrigo (01:11:15.366)
You know, our, everyone is human, you know. We are connected by our humanity in grief. Because like, I can resonate with your grief so well.

Bonnie (01:11:19.99)
Hmm.

Bonnie (01:11:25.562)
Mmm.

Bonnie (01:11:31.883)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (01:11:33.518)
I know exactly how you feel.

How am I going to treat you, Bonnie, if I know how you feel? How are you going to treat me if you know how I feel? And grief is a powerful tool because it's difficult to bypass it. You've got to live it. And when you are experiencing it, you know...

Bonnie (01:11:40.567)
Hmm.

Bonnie (01:11:50.729)
Mm-hmm.

Rodrigo (01:11:56.314)
You're present. There is no like pretending anymore.

Bonnie (01:12:03.594)
Yeah. Oh, that's so, oh my gosh. Rodrigo, you have said that so beautifully. It is soft. And I think about, I'm reading this book called Between Two Kingdoms and it's written by, so like a, oh, I don't know how to say her last name, Jau, J-A-O-U-A-D. And she's John Baptiste's wife and he's like a.

composer, he's a musician. And it's her memoir of her story of finding out she had leukemia just before she turned 23. And so it's her cancer journey. And I was just on an airplane and traveling a week, week and a half ago. And I started reading this book and she talks about grief. Like there's really such grief in this book. And so it was a...

as a current event for me, like reading her story about grief, it was really interesting, cause I'm on this airplane. And it's like the last half hour of the flight and I'm reading her story and I just have this overwhelming feeling of my own grief, of like different things in my life and processing. And some of that is around my kids and my kids getting older and you know.

my oldest is going to leave and like move out and he's going to college. And just like the many losses of just being a parent and your children growing. And there's these moments that you don't realize that you're gonna experience losses over time as a parent. And I was just like reflecting on this grief that I hold as a mother and...

And it was brought up because of this grief that she's describing in her cancer journey and her relationships with people and her relationship with herself. And so as my own kind of like personal story in that, I guess that's one thing I've been thinking of in regards to grief. And as I work with people in different spaces and in transitions, I work with a lot of people in transitions of like where they're going, one place they are and where they wanna go. And in transition, there's grief,

Bonnie (01:14:22.562)
There's a different self and choices and maybe, maybe they're not all things that you chose and maybe were chosen for you, which you didn't necessarily want. And there is such a facing of grief as we transform in our lives. And I love the way that you say that everybody is soft and how you're so present. And I think this is what the yoga is. I think you're exactly right where

It's when we are in it all where we get to be, we get to be simultaneously full of grief and full of joy. Like even if I use my experience as a mom, like I get it, like I am feeling grief because I feel so much joy. And it's both things at the same time. And if I don't let myself see one,

Rodrigo (01:15:03.832)
No.

Bonnie (01:15:19.778)
then the other one swallows everything on either side in it. And it's a disservice to the whole experience. I think that's what, that's what the yoga is. That's like, it's these, it's, it's all of that mixed together.

Rodrigo (01:15:34.386)
They're so beautiful. They're so beautiful. You're completely right. You know, you're completely right. Yoga is a tool for you to come back to yourself, right? For you to revisit and rehab your body. And everything that is in it, right? If there is grief...

Bonnie (01:15:38.933)
Mm-hmm.

Rodrigo (01:16:02.654)
You know, you would befriend grief. If there is joy, you befriend joy. And as you say, most of the time, not most of the time, all the time, our sensations, our emotions, they're fluid. It's not that there is one thing and there is no another thing, right? But as we are just bypassing it, we just distract ourselves to it, we never get to feel, you know.

Bonnie (01:16:21.783)
Mmm.

Rodrigo (01:16:30.574)
And yoga is a compassionate way to bring yourself back and feel it. What is there to feel? And you say so beautifully, you're going to feel grief, but what else is in there? Have a look around. There is light there too. Pony. There is hope. There is so much.

Bonnie (01:16:45.782)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:16:50.014)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, and I like that you use the word befriend because recently, like a little bit ago, maybe a month ago, my sister actually pointed out to me, she's like, Bonnie, you just said the word like you're befriending your perfectionism. And there was something that I was trying to feel like, you know, I was like, oh, and I just said it in passing, but I like the way you just said it too, where

Rodrigo (01:17:08.527)
Hmm.

Bonnie (01:17:15.574)
Like befriend the grief, befriend the joy, befriend like the idea of perfection, befriend boredom, befriend like, like befriend them all. Like they're all, they all get a spot. You're like, hello, welcome to the table.

Rodrigo (01:17:22.662)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (01:17:26.211)
It's you! It's you!

Rodrigo (01:17:31.554)
It's part of you, Bonnie! You know, how you not gonna befriend something that's part of you?

Bonnie (01:17:37.478)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rodrigo (01:17:40.35)
Right, you cannot hate it. It's just you, it's you. It's what being given to you. You know, if you befriend it, you know, it diminishes somehow. Because like it means that you learn how to live with it. You accept it. You know, you treat you with kindness, you know, and that's important. We need more of this in the world.

Bonnie (01:17:43.25)
No. Well...

Bonnie (01:17:48.461)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:17:53.751)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (01:18:08.858)
More love, more kindness.

Bonnie (01:18:09.313)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (01:18:12.826)
more being who I am, you know, and whatever is in here, it's acceptable, it's me, I'm good with it. Even though it's not comfortable, yeah, it's not comfortable, but it's me, you know, welcome home.

Bonnie (01:18:12.845)
on

Bonnie (01:18:22.305)
Mm-hmm.

Bonnie (01:18:29.037)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (01:18:30.65)
Don't stay here for long, though. Don't hang around for long.

Rodrigo (01:18:38.086)
Drink your tea and go away.

Bonnie (01:18:38.506)
Yeah. Here we go. Like, I see you, I acknowledge you. Now let's work together to like keep moving forward and not stay stuck. Yeah. Right. And this is why I think like, yoga is mindfulness and yoga is movement and those things come together, right? And it is a constant moving. It's not staying stuck. Stuckness is disease, right? Like finding, how do we find ease as we move?

Rodrigo (01:18:48.73)
Let's move a little bit together. Okay, nice. Let's breathe together. Enough, okay.

Bonnie (01:19:08.15)
and moving looks like something different. And so for everybody and for us even from day to day and in different seasons. And I think it's why I continue to come back to movement being an important piece of a yoga practice. And I don't care if it's moving your eyes, I don't care if it's moving your head from side to side or your arms. And I really believe that flow can be taught is gonna look different on everybody, but flow is the connection of things together.

and it is exploring those connections. And for teachers, it's the way that you might instruct that. And I posted a video on Instagram and somebody left a comment saying, this makes me, and it was just like me just kind of moving slowly. Like I was moving kind of with my breath, but just it doesn't end up being very fast. Like you can reach your hands up over your head and you can lower them down.

Rodrigo (01:19:38.691)
Mm.

Bonnie (01:20:07.366)
on a breath in and a breath out. Like it's really not that quick. Some movements might be more difficult for one body versus another, like as you know, depending on the movement. But they watched this video and the comment they left has said, this makes me just want to get up and move very softly. Like I wanna put on this song and I wanna move softly. And I'm like, that's what it is. And I think there's, to like kind of loop back to your...

I don't know, call slash ask slash like, slash like yoga teachers, how do we like meet each other and everybody in this space? And even if you like to teach as speaking to teachers, right? Even if you like to teach a class that perhaps is to people who are very ableist in the room, like who are like a class that is ableist, that is two bodies that can move in a lot of different ways that are maybe not showing up in a wheelchair or maybe like whatever, like there's like so many ways that it can look, right?

But if that is a predominant story within the yoga world, to observe the way that we invite with our language, this moving of soft, like moving softly, and that moving softly does not mean it is not strong, and it is like a practice that is full of grace. And I really believe that there is space in a, in a

Rodrigo (01:21:27.569)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:21:36.814)
flow class and a class that might look ableist and to think of like your version of yourself in your twenties, you're like, I needed this. I needed this part of this mindfulness piece of yoga. And where can we start to plant seeds within the yoga community that is so strong in that way? And I think my call or invitation or hope is that we say like, this is how, how can you invite people to move softly? And

and have it be a mindful movement, because you can move fast. People can go running and it's mindful, right? So it's more nuanced than that. It's like, okay, bring in a little bit of the inner soul piece and you could speak to that and then you can move. And it doesn't mean it has to be 40 sun A's. This does not mean that's what it has to be. It's a broader term than that. And even just to begin to pull that, it's like this whole conversation,

What is it? What is the spirituality piece? What do you find in yourself? Like that's what, like there's so much room there.

Rodrigo (01:22:42.054)
Yeah.

Yes, exactly. There is so much room there. Like, I see a lot happening here in the Brazilian community, Brazilian yoga community, where, you know...

There are this search of perfection, you know, that it should look, it should feel, you know, it's very performatic and they even call it like advanced yoga. If you can, for example, do a Srisarasana or, you know, and...

Rodrigo (01:23:26.286)
Advancet for me, Bonnie, is for you to be happy in whatever body you have.

Bonnie (01:23:37.51)
Hmm.

Rodrigo (01:23:38.934)
Right. You know, it's for you to like, you know, have that equanimity of minds, you know, be emotionally mature, you know, it's for you to create better relationships, for you to create, especially with yourself, with nature, you know, it's for you to live consciously.

It's not for you to put your feet behind your neck. And it's like, you know, that is a good question. How do we bring consciousness into a place where there is a lot of competition, a lot of performance, a lot of ego in that? You know, it's a fight, right? Because like, you know...

Bonnie (01:24:26.036)
Mmm.

Rodrigo (01:24:38.29)
I'm not judging anybody, but I see a lot of navel gazing, yoga around me all the time. I'm not saying that, I just wish that like, we could see the subtle praks has advanced. Because it is hard to be in your body. It is hard to, to accept.

It is hard to be okay with who you are without comparing yourself, without trying to be somebody else. It is really hard. And that is yoga.

Bonnie (01:25:16.045)
Mm-hmm. Mm. Yokas being in your own body. Mm.

Rodrigo (01:25:17.786)
This, yeah. And it is challenging. It is challenging because we live in a society where capitalism exists. And if you're happy with who you are, you don't want to consume money. And if you don't consume, the economy doesn't work.

And if the economy doesn't work, I tell you something, it's a tragedy. So we need to get them comparing themselves. You know, we need to sell. We need to keep them on their bodies and not in their hearts. You know, that's how we work.

Rodrigo (01:26:06.086)
There's a lot of things that need to be changed, Bonnie, and yoga is just one of them.

Bonnie (01:26:10.748)
Mm-hmm.

Rodrigo (01:26:12.846)
Yoga is a tool for you to get out of that.

Bonnie (01:26:18.602)
Yeah, yoga is a tool to get out of your head and into your body and to find the connection between those two things. And it's breath, it's movement, it's the attention, it's the time, it's the grace.

all of that.

Rodrigo (01:26:42.318)
He is realizing that you are whole, that you have everything you need, that you're beautiful, you're gorgeous. He's realizing that your neighbor as well is valid, is loved, deserves of love. He's knowing all of that and practicing it.

Bonnie (01:26:57.294)
Mm.

Bonnie (01:27:01.726)
Yeah. It was it was.

Rodrigo (01:27:04.985)
If you want to practice a movement, do it.

Bonnie (01:27:08.478)
Yeah, it was the yoga, it was coming to yoga, coming, it was a Mormon and high demand religion and I found yoga in this in-between space and I left the Mormon church and then I found this yoga community. But it was within that transition space for myself that I

found the relief of having to make anybody change. And I say that because in a high demand religion, there's like this idea of missionary work, this idea that everybody must believe a certain thing to be saved, to be whatever. And once I set all of, once I set all of that down,

Rodrigo (01:27:59.986)
They go to heaven.

Bonnie (01:28:04.434)
I'm not here to say that yoga is going to be the thing for anybody. Yoga is a quite expansive word and it incorporates a lot of things. So people might be doing yoga, they might be practicing yoga and not realizing it. But I found in me this expansive way of just allowing people to be and I didn't have to change anybody. I didn't have to prove anything and they just got to show up and I just got to enjoy them as they are.

And that was like, I can never like, like that's the gift. Like that's the gift. If we can approach ourselves that way. And if we can approach each other that way to be like, I'm not here to fix anything. You have existed on your own without me for this long. Like I just get to show up and we get to have this exchange and like, how lucky are we? That's it.

Rodrigo (01:29:00.218)
Yes, that's true, Boni. I used to say that yoga is not to fix what is broken, but it's something to make you fall in love with the broken and see it as a whole again. And I love when you say that you don't try to change anybody, you just hold space for them to change themselves. And that is the...

Bonnie (01:29:05.093)
Hmm.

Bonnie (01:29:17.559)
Mmm.

Rodrigo (01:29:30.082)
I think that is the role of the yoga teacher, to create a space that is safe enough so your students can connect with their own divinity, with their own heaven access. You're going to be the bridge. You're just going to hold the space. They're going to do the work. We're not pretentious here. That's like we're going to change the world or anything. We're just space holders.

We're just like, okay, it's unfair for you to visit your body. There is no judgment here. We accept you the way you are. You know, even if you don't have the leggings that cost $200, you are welcome here.

Bonnie (01:29:58.955)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:30:05.174)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:30:09.015)
Mm-hmm.

Rodrigo (01:30:15.983)
You're cool.

Bonnie (01:30:16.639)
Yeah, yeah. You're cool, forget it. I love it. I am so grateful that you are being loud for both the yogurt.

Rodrigo (01:30:21.051)
Thank you.

Rodrigo (01:30:30.21)
Am I being loud?

Bonnie (01:30:31.886)
Yeah, you're being loud. You're sitting here, you're talking on a podcast, this is being loud. That you're being loud to both yoga teachers, to the yoga world, to like the instructor land, to studios, to being like, what does it mean to be a studio owner? What does it mean to like, what kind of classes are we showing up? How are we being inclusive? Like, I love that. And I love that you're also being loud in the way that there's people listening to this or going to listen to this that have people in their lives that need chair yoga, right? Because you can...

Rodrigo (01:30:36.346)
Hahaha!

Rodrigo (01:30:42.878)
Thank you.

Bonnie (01:31:01.122)
Like if you're like sitting in a chair, chair yoga, if you're in a wheelchair, that counts. Like you're gonna be seated for yoga. There are people that need that, that don't know that that's a thing and that that's possible and that they can access it from their homes because you don't have to go anywhere because that's like a whole other layer of complexity to like get out and so that you have made it so you can connect with them. And there's people listening to this who need that or know somebody or have somebody that

Rodrigo (01:31:12.092)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (01:31:19.218)
Thank you. Yeah.

Bonnie (01:31:30.442)
They're like, oh, Rodrigo, this is who we connect with. This is how we can do this. And because you speak more than one language, then you can also meet people in some of those other languages that maybe wouldn't have access. And what a gift it is that you are being loud and helping other people find their voice because of you sharing your voice.

Rodrigo (01:31:57.906)
Thank you, everyone. I didn't realize I was being loud.

Bonnie (01:31:58.018)
Mm.

Rodrigo (01:32:04.038)
I was just like, I was just talking. I was like, okay, but you know, this.

Rodrigo (01:32:14.338)
It's something that needs to be changed, you know, and I know there's a lot of things to do. And I know that.

I cannot turn my back to what has been given to me, Bonnie. I don't know.

Bonnie (01:32:29.093)
Mm.

Rodrigo (01:32:29.11)
And if I can say what I feel and what I think in a space like this, I'm grateful. You know, I'm not expecting to change anything, you know, or to be loud or anything. I just, you know, if it does happen, it's okay.

Bonnie (01:32:50.495)
Yeah, yeah.

Rodrigo (01:32:54.364)
It is something that brings me joy to find space like this, where I get to talk, where we get to discuss things like that. Because I think we all have so much to learn from each other, isn't it?

Bonnie (01:33:10.154)
Yes.

Bonnie (01:33:13.45)
We do. We do.

Rodrigo (01:33:14.924)
Yeah. So thank you.

Bonnie (01:33:19.106)
Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much. I'll share everything in the show notes so people can find your classes and they can share them. They can take them themselves. They can share them with their friends, your Instagram, so they can follow you on the gram, on the socials. And I know that you're working, you're doing some trainings, right? Are you helping lead some teacher trainings coming up?

Rodrigo (01:33:45.207)
Yeah, I'm having a training that will be launched on late March, early April on Accessible Yoga School. I sit on the board of directors of Accessible Yoga Association. It's an association that we try to make yoga accessible to different marginalized populations of society.

I'm launching a training how to teach August to disabled folks. And it's going to be an ongoing mentorship as well. So I'm looking forward to that. It's going to be around late March, early April. So if you are considering like...

Bonnie (01:34:18.559)
Awesome. Yeah.

Rodrigo (01:34:38.954)
expand your offerings and making it more accessible. You know, have a look at it. I always, I always say that, you know, serving this population, Bonnie makes you a more virtuoso yoga teacher. I don't know if I can call a yoga teacher virtuoso, but because like, you know, you get to think outside the box, right? We finish 300, 200 YTTs.

You know, we get out with that vision that the asthma shouldn't feel like this way. When you start teaching yoga for someone who is a quadriplegic, who is a paraplegic, you know, someone who is paralyzed from the neck down, for example. You know, how are you going to make that person feel safe and rehab their body? How do you do that? So, you know, there'll be...

Bonnie (01:35:33.594)
Mm-hmm.

Rodrigo (01:35:37.266)
There'll be a lot of exploration, a lot of mistakes, a lot of trial and error. And it's gonna be a place where you will learn much more than you will teach. You will get that long last joy that I mentioned because you're gonna help somebody else. So I would love for yoga teachers to have...

Bonnie (01:36:00.269)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (01:36:06.166)
a more compassionate look into that. Because we are the largest minority in the planet, we are over one billion. One in seven folks in US has a disability. And every corner there is a community center where disabled folks go and hang out. So go there, show up, do your karma yoga, help them out, practice yoga with them, get happy.

Bonnie (01:36:15.854)
Mm.

Bonnie (01:36:20.366)
Mm.

Rodrigo (01:36:35.962)
Go and do your Ashtanga, your vinyasa afterwards. I don't mind. But it's like, you know, serve, right? Leave the yoga you teach, for fuck's sake. Sorry for that. You know.

Bonnie (01:36:49.278)
Swear, swear as much as you want. Yeah.

Rodrigo (01:36:51.854)
No, no, yeah, it's like, you know, embody the practice, you know.

Bonnie (01:36:58.43)
Yeah.

Rodrigo (01:36:59.784)
That is what I would like to say.

Bonnie (01:37:03.374)
I love it. Thank you. Thank you, Rodrigo. Thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for being a voice. Thank you for showing up. And I'm looking forward to knowing you more. And I'm excited about the people who will find you because of this podcast and the way that they will be able to learn from you. So thank you for today.

Rodrigo (01:37:04.824)
Anyway, yeah.

Rodrigo (01:37:28.146)
Thank you, Rony. I appreciate you for inviting me. Take care.

Bonnie (01:37:32.275)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you all, thank you for showing up and listening and remember that you are more than one thing and this practice of paying attention is bigger than movement, it's movement, but it's bigger than movement too. So connect with Rodrigo and see you next time.