240 - Feet as the Foundation of Health w/Woby Lang

Woby Lang, a foot health enthusiast and footwear designer, joins us to 
discuss the importance of barefoot movement, the relationship between foot health and longevity, and the impact of footwear on our overall well-being.

We explore topies like the culture and history of shoes and how modern footwear has led to foot problems and misalignment; the need to restore foot function and mobility through barefoot movement and proper footwear; and the role of movement and play in maintaining a healthy body.

Woby also shares his journey of designing barefoot shoes and the benefits they offer. I learned so much during this conversation!

Takeaways

- Foot health is crucial for overall well-being and mobility
- Modern footwear, with its narrow shape and elevated heels, has led to foot problems and misalignment
- Restoring foot function and mobility can be achieved through barefoot movement and proper footwear
- Foot health is connected to longevity and the prevention of chronic pain and injuries.
- Movement and play are essential for maintaining a healthy body
Cultural and societal norms play a role in how feet are perceived and the level of intimacy associated with them
- Grounding and connecting with the earth's frequency can have positive effects on our overall health and well-being
- Wearing shoes disconnects us from the ground and limits our body's natural movement
- Barefoot movement raises our frequency and can improve our overall well-being

If you'd like to connect with Woby on socials, check out Instagram or LinkedIn.  His portfolio can be found here and here are the soccer cleats he's designed that are now available.

To reclaim and optimize your foot health, Woby recommends checking out The Foot Collective.

Weekly stories by email from Bonnie’s HERE

Connect with Bonnie: Instagram, Email (hello@bonnieweeks.com), Website
Listen to Bonnie's other podcast Sexy Sunday HERE

The music for this episode is Threads by The Light Meeting.
Produced by: Grey Tanner

Transcript

Bonnie (00:04.974)
Hello, friends. Welcome to the podcast today where we're gonna have some fun. I am delighted today because I know that I'm going to walk away having learned things that I do not know. And it's like one of those times where, I mean, zero pressure, right? You're like, right? I just.

I think there's just times when you know you're going to walk into a place or like have an interaction and you're going to leave knowing different things. Like I just, I know that that's going to happen today, which makes me super excited. I'm like, please like put me in all the rooms where I don't know all of the things so that I can walk away changed and, and be able to kind of weave that into my own story. So all that said, with not a whole lot of pressure for you, sorry, Woby. I guess today is somebody.

who is moved, right? You know what it's like when somebody is doing their thing and they are moved from the inside out and you can't not be stoked because you're watching them do their thing and you're like, they've got it. Like there's the spark in them that lights you up, that makes you want to do your thing because they're doing their thing. And I think that's like my hope for the whole world is let me help you.

Find your thing, like whatever it is, and maybe not me help you, but like do your thing. Like whatever that thing that is moving you, that makes you sit up straight, that makes you like lean in and keep asking questions, like whatever that is, keep going that direction. And so that is exactly where we're gonna land today. And this is like, you can't fake it, right? So this is somebody who's passionate as fuck and is excited about all the things and places he's going and things he's going to build. So.

Today, our guest is Wobi Leng. Welcome to the podcast.

Woby Lang (02:03.712)
Hello everyone, thanks for having me, Bonnie. This is really exciting and thank you for the introduction. It's heartfelt in many ways and appreciated and the sentiment is mutual and reciprocal. So yeah, you inspire me too. So thank you.

Bonnie (02:22.702)
Yeah, thank you. So you are all about feet.

Woby Lang (02:32.576)
Yes, I'm all about restoring foot health and just overall mobility optimization and you know for injury prevention and longevity and body autonomy as we get older but I have been learning how to not only design but also construct and develop barefoot quote -unquote shoes.

to help with mobility. I think people are, as the health and wellness and fitness industries grow, more and more people are realizing that their feet are fucked and they need to restore their health, but they don't know how to restore their health. And it all starts with the feet. And so, and it all starts with what we put our feet in.

Bonnie (03:26.446)
Hmm.

Woby Lang (03:30.866)
in because unfortunately our built -up societies and urban environments and just societal norms keep us in shoes and having to wear shoes all day long. And so after a lifetime of wearing what we think are good shoes,

Woby Lang (03:54.368)
we started breaking down a lot quicker than what I think evolution intended us to, you know, intended us to be able to move for as long as we should be able to, if that makes sense. And so, so yeah, so for me, my personal journey started with the fact that I have two centenarians in my bloodline. So one on each side of the family, my great aunt.

Bonnie (04:06.446)
Mm -hmm.

Woby Lang (04:19.584)
My mom's side lived to 103. My great grandmother and my dad's side lived to 102. My grandma passed away just before her 90th birthday and my grandpa on my mom's side and my dad's side, my grandpa just turned 94 in October and up until like...

within the last year he was driving. So, and both my parents are 75 and or older and in good health. So I've got the blueprint, I've got the genes to potentially live a long life. I'm 35 now and I've always just been active, playing all sports, basketball mainly.

Bonnie (04:58.946)
Hmm.

Woby Lang (05:01.344)
and just always loved dance. You know, it's always just like a freestyle being from Miami, being Hispanic. It's just what we do. And recently started training in Afro dance for the first time in any type of like training environment. So the last two years I've been focusing on that. But because I knew this about my bloodline,

Bonnie (05:16.11)
Yes.

Woby Lang (05:26.592)
friend from the urban, he's a doctor, his name is the urban barefoot, kind of grew up having, grew to have a big following and he was promoting and advocating for the benefits of literally walking barefoot and starting from there, just like literally like restoring the connection to the ground, to nature and not only the effects of grounding but then

Bonnie (05:44.556)
Hmm.

Woby Lang (05:55.808)
he was correcting the gait patterns of collegiate and professional athletes and helping them restore proper.

copper, not only gait patterns, but building and restoring like kinetic chains and access to your glutes and all that stuff. And through his learnings, he was realizing that it all starts with your feet. And so from there, he joined forces with the Foot Collective, which is this global health initiative started in Canada by Nick St. Louis. And now they've grown to be found all over the world.

from Australia to Europe to North America. And so I connected with them, studied under them, did their footner program. And in that time, I was just kind of like, I injured myself. And I think that's where like everyone's story kind of originates is like, we know, we know.

Bonnie (06:54.894)
That's true.

Woby Lang (06:57.056)
Things might be better, things might be healthier for us, but it's very typical Americanism. I think it's like we isolate ourselves from the rest of what's going on and until it happens to us, we really don't care. And I think, not just American thing, but maybe overall society now, especially with how disconnected we are from each other. Yeah, so not to go in too far with unintentional now, but yeah, so I was working on this.

Bonnie (07:10.156)
Hmm.

Woby Lang (07:26.962)
working and I injured myself and I had dropped a stack of chairs on my foot and I thought it was fine and then like two three weeks yeah it's like the like yeah it was painful in the moment but I kept walk I was I kept walking you know I was able to walk it off and then like two three weeks later I was playing basketball and at the end of like the third hour of playing basketball all of a sudden I couldn't even put pressure on my foot.

Bonnie (07:33.55)
Hmm. That sounds really painful.

Woby Lang (07:54.88)
And I was like, what is going on?

And I was like, is this from when I dropped the chairs on my foot? And I didn't have health insurance at the time. So I went to him and talked to him and we kind of bartered. And I was just like, I know you, you know, he was making his own like foot health products, like slant boards and stuff like that. And I have a background in industrial design from Pratt. And I was like, let's make something, you know, let me like, let's let me design something for you. And he's just like, actually, you know, I've been working with some

athletes and it would be interesting to see like what a basketball trainer would look like that had columns inside the shoe to separate your feet or separate your toes to achieve full splay or to be able to wear your toe spacers inside and what that would look like for like just to shoot around or train in as a basketball shoe a trainer and from there that kind of like

Bonnie (08:31.926)
Mmm.

Bonnie (08:51.724)
Mm -hmm.

Woby Lang (08:54.72)
He was just like, I did the first round of drawings and he was just like, yeah, that's cool. This is your project. If you want to take with it, you'll run with it. And since then, I've come to Portland now since 2020, learning from Jason Hobatter, who goes by the laughing crow or the shoemaking school. He makes anatomical lasts out of wood and also teaches you how to pattern and how to sew and hand sew the shoes together in cobble.

them like a true like old school cobble cobbler and and so I learned from him and so I developed my own last that has like it's like pizza shapes this is a 3d this is a 3d version of it yeah last so the way

Bonnie (09:24.974)
Wild.

Bonnie (09:41.006)
Okay. Is the word last L -A -S -T? Is that what you said?

Does that mean it's a pattern?

Woby Lang (09:51.392)
It's the volume inside the shoe that you use to then construct the shoe with the materials that you're working with. So like...

I don't have a full history of glass making but basically before the Industrial Revolution they would measure your foot, you know...

Basically people only people with money only wore shoes, right? Like people couldn't afford to have like shoes made for them one -to -one like bespoke but usually it was like a class thing that people had shoes and So that shoemaker would like take the measurements of your foot and then recreate it out of wood and And then from there would like

draw on it or tape it up or you know cover it with like wax paper or something and then design on it and then from there lay it flat and then make the pattern and then use the last to then nail the leather usually around or textile around the foot or around the last I should say and then construct the rest of the shoe. And so in

in industrial, during the industrial revolution, when they started to mechanize the production of shoe making, you know, you had to have a left and a right last and feet are not symmetrical.

Bonnie (11:20.878)
No, or the same size even.

Woby Lang (11:22.782)
or the same size. So up until then, everyone, you had a left and a right that were different. So, but the engineers and the businessmen, they didn't want to have to include the cost of making an individual left and an individual right when everyone's different. Like no one has a A from one foot to the other.

Bonnie (11:40.142)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (11:47.786)
they're not identical. And then from one person to the other, like maybe my left foot is short and fat and your left foot is tall and skinny. So how can you account for fit for majority of the people then if you're mass producing a shoe? You really can't unless you 3D scan, which is a whole nother thing, but.

Bonnie (12:02.606)
Yeah. Yeah.

Woby Lang (12:10.624)
And so at the time they were like, okay, well how can we cut production costs and time and cut the patterning costs and how can we be more efficient? And so they just made the foot or made the last symmetrical and not as wide.

just for like cost of materials. And so they kind of created the shape. And then since those were the first shoes that were mass produced, people just stuck with it. And then the whole point, the whole pointy shoe thing came from a classist belief or elitist belief that only poor people who don't have shoes have.

Bonnie (12:44.174)
Fascinating.

Woby Lang (12:57.68)
wide fat feet and to prove that I don't work and that I'm in this elite class, I'm going to have pointy feet to show that like I don't work a day in my life type thing.

Bonnie (13:08.105)
Wow. I mean like, body, like the way that body size goes over time to be like, okay, skinny is like, that's in style or people who are like heavier, that's in style. Cause that means you're well fed or, you know, like the way that those, I don't know, the social norms of how like this is the ideal quote ideal or the way that we dress, like to put that even into shoes. I hadn't even thought of that for.

for pointy shoes.

Woby Lang (13:39.68)
So the history of footwear generally, there's like, there's I think like, there's at least two or three museums dedicated to the history of footwear in the world. A really good one is in Toronto, I believe. And then another one in Belgium, it's a private collection, but, and that guy's really cool. Like he goes on this whole tangent about ancient civilizations and...

connections to extraterrestrials but it's he has a whole book about it but it's actually it all gets it's all connected somehow but but essentially you know the modern human skeleton is around 200 000 years old plus they say and so you know if you were to take if you were to clone the dna from someone from 200 000 years ago and put them in a suit and put them in time square you wouldn't know the difference.

Bonnie (14:16.938)
Interesting.

Bonnie (14:36.174)
That's wild, right?

Woby Lang (14:36.192)
Right. And so.

Anthropologically speaking or archaeologically speaking, shoes weren't discovered until about 80 ,000 years ago. So for 120 ,000 years, human, our bodies and skeletons were walking 20 miles a day, running and jumping, accessing their athletic energy or athleticism whenever they needed to at any given moment, whenever, you know, if there was a line behind them.

Bonnie (15:02.798)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (15:07.2)
They could run, you know, if there was a bear in the forest, they can climb the tree whenever they needed to. You know, if they were hunting for three days without eating, they could do it and accessing their energy and potential at any given moment. So it wasn't until 80 ,000 years ago that they started to wear shoes. And the main thing was just protection. Right. So it was like some type of animal skin, leather.

Bonnie (15:08.622)
Yeah.

Bonnie (15:30.605)
Mm -hmm.

Woby Lang (15:35.936)
had it, it was naturally shaped because they just covered it and that was it, just from the elements, right? You know, to protect them from rocks or whatever it was, the cold mainly probably. And you know, if you look at old Eskimo boots or Native American tribes who live in Inuits, they're wide, right? They're super wide. And wasn't until about...

Bonnie (15:43.234)
Yeah.

Bonnie (16:03.982)
This is so interesting.

Woby Lang (16:05.632)
the Egyptian era where things started to get more ornamental with gold reliefs and sandals and things like that they would wear toe caps and then Roman times they started to develop more sandals and then fast forward to like Victorian era England you know there were laws against platform shoes because people it was so going back to like the classism and elitism

People had to, women had to get helped by having three servants to put them in those big dresses, but then also to lift them up and put them in shoes that elevated them like three feet off the ground. So there was like, there were actual laws place that's like had to like cap.

Bonnie (16:47.814)
my gosh.

Woby Lang (16:52.448)
the like height of your shoe, like the stack height of your shoe. And because, and then people, of course, people like, like corsets, corsets, obviously like, yeah, they make your figure look good for what the standards were at the time, but like how many women died of asphyxiation or, you know, broke their ribs, right? Like honor footwear is no different than, you know, Chinese foot binding. It's just, it's

Bonnie (17:02.422)
Mm -hmm.

Bonnie (17:09.103)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Bonnie (17:18.806)
Yeah, I was gonna say I've read some books about Chinese foot binding and some fiction books about, I don't know, just fiction and nonfiction to be like that is so intense. What is possible? I was thinking, what's possible to do to our human body? Our bodies are very malleable, right? You can train them to do a lot of different things, but it is not without consequence either.

Woby Lang (17:44.768)
Right, and so two things. So the simple way of looking at it, it's like, if helmets are shaped like your head and gloves are shaped like your hand, then why aren't shoes shaped like your feet? Right? If we wanna do yoga and have flexible, stretchy clothing, then why wouldn't...

shoes also allow for your toes to splay when you need to access that width. And then the other thing, well I forgot but we can, yeah.

Bonnie (18:12.748)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Bonnie (18:22.058)
But we're here. This is awesome. I think there's, you know, I don't know if it before yoga even thought about my feet very much. So I've been practicing yoga for about like 10 years this year. I've been practicing and then I was teaching, but I was coaching before that. And a lot of time in my coaching and in workouts, like I already wasn't wearing shoes often. And I had, I was running a lot and I had read the book, Born to Run and.

played around then I had gotten this bright green pair of Brooks that I loved that was pretty minimal. It wasn't like totally minimal. I had, I had picked up one pair that was really quite thin, but we've, we haven't trained our bodies, especially if you're an adult, we haven't trained our bodies to not have cushion. And so I, my ankles were not loving that one. So I got something with a little bit more and love those shoes. And I think there's,

and I wore them for so, so, so, so many miles. Yeah, and the book Born to Run, it was just fascinating to me. And there's even mantras and things in that book that I still bring into yoga practice. And really thinking about foot health is such a piece of yoga practice that sometimes isn't thought of, right? There's so many ways that folks can, and teachers can really guide yoga.

classes and yoga looks like so many different things, just like dance does, right? To be like, I'm a dancer, be like, what does that mean? It's pretty similar in that way to say like, well, what is the focus or what is the experience that you're bringing to the room in yoga? But I was excited to have this conversation because you're absolutely right. Like our feet, it does begin with our feet. And I would love for you to talk more about our foot health being a place to begin.

even if there's other things happening. So to kind of go to that because it is our connection to the earth. It is our place of stability. It is how we walk around the world. Like it's how we are mobile. And what happens when we can't is a really big deal. It's like really big deal.

Woby Lang (20:38.944)
So, yeah, so without trying to go into too many tangents, I'll start with some numbers. So our body is what, 205 bones, I think. 206. In one foot alone, you have 26 bones, 33 joints, four layers of muscle.

Bonnie (20:55.63)
I think it's 206, isn't it 206? Mm -hmm.

Woby Lang (21:08.192)
and over 200 ,000. They haven't even been able to finish counting how many nerve endings you have in your foot. Why do we have so many nerve endings in our foot? It's because our feet are the only part of our body that is in constant contact with our physical environment.

Bonnie (21:26.254)
Hmm.

Woby Lang (21:26.976)
So we need those nerve endings to be as open as possible so that we can A, send those signals from whatever we're feeling from the environment to our brain to know is it safe to walk? Is it wet? Is it hot out? Whatever the case may be. But then also to be able to transfer energy through our bodies as we walk, run, jump and land.

So if you multiply those 26 bones in need from, you know, multiply them by two because we have two feet, that's a quarter of our body's bones in our feet alone. So that right there, like that's a lot. And when we wear shoes, it's out of sight, out of mind.

Bonnie (22:04.078)
That's a lot.

Woby Lang (22:11.552)
And so we don't necessarily pay too much importance on our feet and our foot health because A, at least for the last 50 years, we've been marketed as being told that the shoe is good for you, it does the work for you, these are more comfortable, whatever X, Y, and Z is being sold to you. And so therefore we don't put enough importance on the actual, like how strong are my feet actually on their own.

Bonnie (22:40.75)
Hmm.

Woby Lang (22:41.568)
you know, for trying to perform or just do things, you know, like I have a shoe for walking, I have a shoe for basketball, I have a shoe for all these things, you know, it's just like, so they're performing the function for you and you're not actually allowing the foot to function normally or naturally. And it gets to the point where regular shoes...

obviously they constrict your toe, your toe splay, and so, and then also they shorten the end ranges of motion. So basically it starts with the big toe and understanding like your fascia and how most athletic movement isn't necessarily like.

controlling muscle, it's actually controlling energy through your fascia and like how quickly you can kind of access the backside, front side, different planes of your body through your fascia. And you have tendons and muscles and fibers that connect your big toe directly to your hip. And so if you, you know, if you have bunions and your big toe now,

to the side and you lose your ability to control your big toe, then you also have hip problems and then you also have knee problems. Everything is affected upstream. And now if you restrict the toes, right, and then lift the heel, the arch of the foot, its function is now changed.

because the arch of the foot, it's an arch just like an arch in a cathedral in construction, you have the biggest block in the middle. And then as you go to the sides, you have smaller blocks so that it takes load perpendicularly and disperses the weight or the forces of that load across the arch evenly. And so that's all in well.

Bonnie (24:49.72)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (24:53.792)
So this is my last, let's say, I mean, this is the last that I made originally out of wood and then I got it 3D printed. But you have the arch here, right? And so this is all good when it's all flat and perpendicular, right? Now, if you raise the heel and you constrict the toes,

and when you raise the heel, it shifts your center of gravity over towards the front. And so now that load, that weight is not on the biggest bone of the arch. Your arch is 14 bones.

Bonnie (25:22.254)
Yes.

Woby Lang (25:30.412)
And so now it's in the smaller, it's loaded perpendicularly or at an angle on the smaller side. And that's what actually causes either high arches or flattened feet. It's just by having a heel lift and the toes constricted. And so people think that like flat feet, I mean, yes.

you know, like the, I think it's the Maasai tribe in Africa that they're known for like being pogo sticks and just being able to jump right up. Yes, like their feet are now genetic adaptations because culturally they've been learning how to control their tensegrity in their body and their ankles to jump and control the loads when they're landing and jump right up. And so that has developed their feet to structure a certain way.

Bonnie (26:12.898)
Hmm.

Woby Lang (26:23.328)
But like bunions and flat arches and high arches are not genetic. They're generational because we've all been wearing for the last 150, 200 years the same narrowed shoes. You know, dress shoes, heels, whatever. And so, yes, my granddad, my father, or you know, my grandma, my mother, we all have bunions. So we think it's genetic, but it's not.

Bonnie (26:51.318)
Hmm.

Woby Lang (26:52.212)
it's just because we've all been wearing the same constrictive footwear. And so over time, including conventional footwear, we no longer are like physically working society, right? Like we, majority of the people...

Bonnie (26:55.574)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (27:09.696)
sitting at a computer all day long, you the physical work is now replaced by computer work and mental capacity. And so we're sitting in a chair all day long and that now has other consequences to our bodies. And so we lose, when you lose the mobility, well, let me back up. Having constrictive footwear, when my toes are allowed to splay out,

I can push off the big, you know, I can tow off the big tow because I have that flexibility when I'm barefoot. But if my feet are not constricted, they're bunched together, the metatarsal heads now are in a parabola.

Bonnie (27:43.98)
Mm -hmm.

Woby Lang (27:57.248)
And so if you ever do a walking assessment for most individuals, I would say over 90 people, over 90 % of the people, we don't toe off the big toe. We actually, the last point of contact is in between the second and third metatarsal.

Bonnie (27:58.208)
Woby Lang (28:13.248)
So it's more because it's because the shape of our shoes are symmetrical, it squishes the toes and creates like a focal point underneath the foot where you're pushing off here instead of the big toe. Right? So like we don't even realize that most of us, like when we walk, aren't even using our accessing our big toe.

Bonnie (28:13.934)
Yeah.

Bonnie (28:22.028)
Mm -hmm.

Bonnie (28:30.222)
Yeah. Interesting.

Woby Lang (28:37.408)
And then you add in athletic footwear where athletic footwear has what's called toe spring, where you see this is flat athletic footwear has toe spring that curves the foot, the toes up and toe spring was created because the soles were so rigid that in order for the foot to actually move, they had to create a curve so that like it would take the foot forward. And you put...

Bonnie (29:03.21)
wow, this wasn't like, it wasn't to even like help the movement. It was to then counteract what they had done.

Woby Lang (29:11.68)
Yeah, and that's like been the story of like the floor industry like time and time again where it's like they do something people get used to it and instead of like Saying like is this actually good for us? we just Put another bandaid over it and another bandaid and no so that's like that's a story for like why nike added heel lift and heel cushion Is because the first cortez's when people started wearing, you know nike like the first cortez's were flat

without a heel, like no heel counter, no heel cushion, no heel lift, they were just flat. And they were worn by track athletes who had coaches telling them how to run and how to have proper mechanics. But then in the 70s when running became popular, sneaker culture didn't exist then. So people were usually wearing hard -heeled dress shoes.

for most of the day. And so when you then go back to trying to run in a flat shoe where your heel and your body isn't used to being in this position, they started to complain saying that their heels hurt. And so instead of Nike then taking the opportunity to say, hey, maybe it's because, you know.

You've been watching TV and been sitting all day and not eating right and then you just think you can go and run a marathon. It's like no, you need to learn how to properly move. And instead of doing that, they just added a heel cushion.

Bonnie (30:43.15)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (30:47.392)
And there's all these things where it's like, and I know this because I have mentors who worked at Nike for almost 40 years who told me how this went down. They brought in the top podiatrist and the top podiatrist at the time said, meet your consumer where they're at. If they're used to wearing a half inch heel or higher, put in that half inch heel so it makes them adjusted to, accustomed to what they're used to.

Bonnie (31:11.534)
Hmm.

Woby Lang (31:13.088)
and instead of saying no you need to retrain

your your end ranges of motion to be able to take load in these new positions because what a heel does is it shortens your Achilles and it changes that center of gravity and then it misaligns or maladjust your body has to do all these different calculations that you're not conscious of like so your knees take the load now when you when your heel is lifted and then your hips are tilted forward.

Bonnie (31:24.398)
Yeah.

Bonnie (31:37.334)
Hmm.

Woby Lang (31:48.416)
or tilted back, I think. Yeah, and it creates an arch in your back because now you have to adjust for this new change of center of gravity. And that does a lot of detriment. Adding in a day or a lifestyle where basically in the seated position for more than two thirds of our day, right? If you're...

Bonnie (31:59.854)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (32:16.416)
working at a computer eight hours a day, sitting down when you eat your meals, when you drive to work, when you're watching TV at home after a long day. How do you think, and our bodies are master adapters, what does that do when we sleep? We all sleep in a fetal position that's basically as if you're sitting in a chair.

So your body wants to stay in that seated position all day long because that's what we do now. And that's why you see us rise in adolescent non -contact injuries in the ACLs and Achilles because the kids are seated in school all day. They're in these seated positions all day. And then you expect them to just go run and perform without warming up and without wearing improper footwear. So...

Bonnie (32:43.564)
Yeah.

Bonnie (33:08.14)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (33:11.2)
So going back to like what modern shoes do is they create, and then now you add in a lifetime of sitting down, a lifetime of misaligned body geometry, and you want to keep performing and doing sports and to being active and all these things. And the one statistic that kind of like sealed the deal for me when we talk about longevity and all these things is that,

Bonnie (33:14.83)
Wow.

Woby Lang (33:39.584)
It's something like 80 % of patients who receive a hip replacement that are older than 75 die within two years of having received the hip replacement. So what happens? We've lived a long life of sitting down. We've lived a long life of wearing shoes that don't allow for optimal foot function and mobility.

Bonnie (33:58.51)
Mm.

Woby Lang (34:08.8)
and so we've lost the connection of the big toe to the hip so that weakens our and and and we've lost the connection of hip extension from sitting down all day long.

And we've lost the connection to our glutes. And we don't realize that, you know, taking the term from Pilates, our powerhouse is what holds us up. You know, our abs, our hips, being able to control the top of our glutes, you know, accessing that those top muscles is everything. You know, most people don't realize that our glutes are what actually is like starting the kinetic chain of walking. And we just walk with our calves and our hamstrings or, yeah. And so,

and that and so then that's improper and so what happens is we are weak our hips get weak and to the point now where we can't hold ourselves you know we fall we can't hold ourselves up against gravity we fall we break a hip super expensive super long recovery and super intrusive surgery so we're afraid to even

Bonnie (35:14.99)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (35:18.154)
move and mess that up or afraid to fall again and have and break the other hip. And so what does that do then? It puts us in a state of sitting down all day for even longer. Like you can't expect someone at 75 with a hip replacement to now be a yogi, you know, like, so they're just going to go back to what their body is used to doing, which was sitting and then they become better. They didn't, they don't move and then they die.

Bonnie (35:24.494)
Yeah.

Bonnie (35:34.51)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Bonnie (35:44.59)
Yeah. Yeah.

Woby Lang (35:45.28)
And so that's where I start. I say, I say move or die, right? Like motion is lotion, move or die.

Bonnie (35:52.846)
Yeah, I do have to give a shout out to my grandma who had a hip replacement years ago and is kicking it still. So she's had to get another, she did just have to get another hip replacement, but now she's 96. So.

Woby Lang (36:00.48)
Good, good. Can I help?

Woby Lang (36:08.32)
Yeah, and some more statistics is like 80 % of patients who go to the podiatrist for chronic pain are women. And it's because of their footwear choices.

Bonnie (36:18.094)
Hmm, tighter shoes. Yeah, okay, this is, I love hearing all the history and I mean, kind of in the same kind of phrase of out of sight, out of mind, right? You like put your feet in shoes, now you don't even think about your feet. In some ways, I think history, sometimes we are like, well that, like whatever, like it just is what it is now where things are very close to us really.

are really fairly new and still there's no answers about it where we kind of take things as fact of like that's just the way that things are for so many things in our lives. And so I like that this is posing the question. I'm like, that's like all curiosity place of saying like, wait, what are we doing with our feet? And why are people talking about barefoot things? I mean, it's kind of like breathing is getting a lot more.

of conversation about breathing and where to place your tongue actually to breathe and mouth breathing and mouth taping and is becoming more mainstream and where we there's so many avenues to think about our health and how that helps us you know feel good in our lives and how footwear and the way that we use our feet is is something that is growing as well and I think there's just a lot of folks who maybe are coming to yoga who are

You're right. They've been sitting a lot. And I think the benefit of a yoga practice, Pilates can do the same thing. Like there's other practices as well, but I'm speaking to the yoga practice for sure is you're going to put your body in positions that it for sure is not doing sitting at a desk. And, and it is a shoeless practice by nature where, and I always, whenever I coach people in the gym and strength training session, I actually am like, please take off your shoes. And people are all like, what?

or what? And I'm like, yes, take off your shoes. But there's, it's exactly the same thing where people don't put their hands on the ground for yoga, but even to just put your feet, people just put your feet on the ground. And, you know, some people can have feels about their feet and other people's feet or whatever, but it is a practice where it encourages people to move their body in new ways and to actually play with your feet and to move them and to do things. So.

Bonnie (38:44.406)
Yeah, this is fascinating.

Woby Lang (38:45.472)
I mean, play is huge. That type of mentality of like having, enjoying the exercise, right? Like I think now like people define exercise as like something I have to do, but it's like, I mean, it should be like brushing your teeth, right? Like we should all, like, we don't think about.

We just brush our teeth because that's what we're, you know, we were taught, but it's like, okay, it's in order for what? It's in order for it to prevent tooth decay, right? And to keep, you know, our teeth in place. Well, then we should also be lubricating our bodies by...

moving and playing so that we also don't, you know, so that we prevent that decay of our bodies, right? And we don't necessarily think about it that way. We think of it as something like, I just, I have to do this. Or I think we think of it as like super fish for superficial reasons. Cause I want my, I want to be toned and look good in the bikini or, you know, with my shirt off, whatever. But we don't actually think about like, is this functional? You know, like, is this going to allow me to like,

Bonnie (39:33.966)
Yeah.

Bonnie (39:51.822)
Mm -hmm.

Woby Lang (39:57.94)
you know, just doing simple things like hanging and having foot health and like, you know, those little things that you could do like five to 10 minutes a day over time, like are really beneficial. And, you know, and even then, you know, people who come to yoga or training,

Bonnie (40:10.22)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (40:21.504)
even though you do a barefoot doesn't mean that your structure is now going to like automatically realign itself. You have to do like, so I hadn't mentioned this yet, but regular shoes.

Bonnie (40:28.078)
Sure, that's true.

Woby Lang (40:37.6)
because of toe spring, because they flip the toes up and put you in the athletic shoes, put you like this, now you've lost the ability to control the intrinsic muscles in your toes because the shoe is doing the work for you of like pushing off and all these things. And so you literally have to like retrain your brain and your neural pathways to like access these small muscles. You know, like I always tell people,

Bonnie (41:02.254)
Hmm.

Woby Lang (41:05.664)
You know, you've seen the story, the new segment of like the woman who was born, you know, with a congenital disease of like not having been born with arms. And then she ends up like being able to like brush her teeth and paint and drive a car with her feet and all these things. It's like we have the ability to use our feet just as we do our hands, right? Like we have more.

Bonnie (41:29.036)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (41:31.968)
we have more nerve endings in our feet than we do our hands or our face. So it's like, there's a reason why, like we can be mysterious with our feet and our toes, but we just don't, you know? And like, because we've like, you know, when was the last time you went to climb a tree? When was the last time you like, you know, people stopped jumping after a while, you know?

Bonnie (41:39.982)
So wild.

Bonnie (41:44.768)
Yeah.

Bonnie (41:53.006)
Mm -hmm.

Woby Lang (41:56.128)
It's just like, you need to be able to do it. It's so important. And if you don't have a proper base to land on, right? Like, and that base, you know, I always say it's a tripod, right? So if you, if you have your heel, your big toe and your pinky. So now I don't have any conventional shoes to show, but now if you, you know, push this in more, right? You're not going to be as balanced.

Bonnie (41:57.614)
Jumping's so important, jumping so. Yeah, yeah.

Bonnie (42:06.22)
Mm -hmm.

Bonnie (42:23.086)
You push your pinky. yeah.

Woby Lang (42:24.51)
If you push this one in more, you're not going to be as balanced. And, you know, we've all been like wearing shoes like in this range. And so we think that's what's normal. But until you actually like experience it, right, until you actually like not only train barefoot, but then like wear your toe spacers or do Bennett exercises that help shift your big toe back over to where it could be. You know, you're not going to think even think about it. You're not going to be aware about it. So I think awareness is the first.

thing like just like becoming aware of like like this feels good or this like allows me to access you know like or overcome my plateaus in the gym because now I have better connection to the ground or better stability or more flexibility whatever the case may be and so so yeah.

Bonnie (42:55.758)
Yeah.

Bonnie (42:59.308)
Mm.

Bonnie (43:04.91)
Yeah.

Bonnie (43:11.054)
Yeah. Yeah. I like that color because I mean, here I define yoga as the practice of paying attention, which is like even to, I love having this pause moments be like, okay, right. Pinky toe, move it out to the side and bring it back in. Right? Like how much control can you have to the pinky toe? I have more control with my pinky toe than I do like my fourth toe. No, it's hard. but it is the small things and it.

and that make a big difference. And there's, I am thinking about my kiddos. So I have three kids and when they have their new Nikes, right? They have their new shoes. So they're like, okay, now I want to not crease my shoes. Now I'm just thinking about the walking patterns, right? And for kids who are, there's like a whole thing about not creasing your shoes and they look ridiculous. I had my 13 year old, just about a pair.

Woby Lang (43:58.688)
The penguin one. Yeah. The shuffle.

Bonnie (44:09.934)
new shoes for after his birthday and it was all white, Nikes. And he's walking down the stairs and he's keeping his knees straight. I'm like, dude, you gotta bend your knees. Like you look ridiculous. Like you can't just like walk straight legged, you know, like a little waddling statue. It's like you gotta bend your knees still in order to walk. But there is this trend of like not creasing your shoes that I do not remember being at. I don't know. I didn't.

I don't remember that being a thing when I was good. Okay, okay, so maybe it was a thing. But like thinking ahead for, or thinking about what my kids are doing where, you know, there's like this funny little waddle of not entering your shoes so they look nicer longer, which I get. And also shitty foot health.

Woby Lang (44:39.552)
It was a thing. I also succumbed to that, you know. I worked with my life, you know.

Woby Lang (45:02.624)
Yeah, for sure, for sure.

Bonnie (45:05.422)
gosh. Yeah. Were you always, so like with this and with as deep as you've gone into foot health and into all the things that you were like looking to create and are currently creating, have you always been a curious, like dive in deep sort of human, even when you were a kiddo?

Woby Lang (45:29.024)
yeah, 100%. And that starts with just like my racial and ethnic background. It's just like, I'm Hispanic, but I'm also like of different races and religions. So my dad's side is Eastern European Jewish ancestry that made it over to Argentina and...

And yeah, and so there's that side and that side is like a mix of Russian, Polish, Ukrainian, Lithuanian, you know, Jewish ancestry. And then you add in that they, you know, they were a couple of generations.

in Argentina and then on my mom's side is like indigenous Panamanian roots with like obviously because of colonialism, you know, some Spanish blood and then a mixture of like all the countries around there. So Costa Rica, Colombia, Honduras also and Nicaragua and

I was born in Miami. So just being like, and then with a name like Woby Lang, everyone's always like, what are you? You know, like where you're from, whatever. And so just being different always made me question everything. And I think in Judaism also, like you're always meant to ask why and like see things from a different perspective. And it's never, it's never.

Bonnie (46:58.766)
Mmm.

Woby Lang (47:16.608)
you know, don't take anything for face value. And so you're encouraged to like, okay, if the text says this, why does it say this? Or why did Moses or do that or whatever? And so you're always meant to ask. And so I was always curious and always kind of having internal reflections of like, who am I, what am I?

Bonnie (47:20.43)
Hmm.

Bonnie (47:28.11)
Mmm.

Woby Lang (47:43.2)
people like internal versus external perception and awareness. And, and yeah, and I was always like, a pretty sound athlete. And I remember like, I think in ninth grade or something, I like had bought a pair of shoes like a size too big, but they felt way better. And like, and

Bonnie (48:09.164)
Hmm.

Woby Lang (48:13.918)
And yeah, and then, and I got kind of never forget that because I was just like, or like, I like played a basketball game and like a shoot pair of shoes that were way bigger and I actually performed really well and I was just like, huh, like, what's going on here? And then when my friend,

my friend Jeff Shoop started questioning the healthcare system and conventional footwear and all that stuff. I was like, this just makes sense, right? And then I tried it for myself. I wouldn't say I'm a sneaker head, but I love basketball. I eat, sleep, dream basketball. And...

Bonnie (48:41.166)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (48:54.976)
and I was always about Jordans, you know, like I had family in the 90s that lived in Chicago, that were born and raised in Chicago and I would visit them. And so growing up with this, you know, first generation mixed background.

Woby Lang (49:13.824)
having family in Chicago was everything to me because it gave me like this like pop culture American like Americana tie of just like Michael Jordan and basketball and tying all that to hip hop and dance and then all these things and so I was always just like into into basketball and to dance and

Bonnie (49:22.518)
Hmm.

Woby Lang (49:36.704)
I don't remember where I'm going with this, but it just, yeah, it just made me always, my upbringing just made me question everything, don't ever take anything for face value, and always incorporated some form of movement practice. It wasn't until I think like my senior year where I first tried yoga and then took.

Bonnie (49:53.614)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (50:00.906)
went to Pratt and took more courses like as an elective in yoga and then

really enjoyed that. And then I got into Pilates in my early 20s.

pretty heavily to the point where just before the pandemic I was studying to be a yoga instructor, sorry a Pilates instructor and I was around the same time that I started getting really into foot health and it just all made sense because in Pilates you know you do yoga too like you do a lot of full work and yeah and it just...

Bonnie (50:23.724)
Mmm.

Woby Lang (50:41.728)
Yeah, it just all clicked as a roundabout answer.

Bonnie (50:43.246)
Yeah. I love that. I did not know you were like studying to, so did you finish? Are you, are you a Pilates instructor then? Okay.

Woby Lang (50:52.192)
It's a long story. I still want to be, but I didn't finish because of the pandemic. The gym closed down. The instructor kind of took my money and didn't want to kind of ghosted me. And so that's a whole nother thing. But yeah, so.

Bonnie (50:57.71)
Okay.

Bonnie (51:01.934)
Yeah.

Bonnie (51:07.054)
gosh.

Woby Lang (51:14.624)
But thanks to Tenley, our dear friend Tenley, she's allowed me to kind of hop on the Pilates horse and get back to it. And saying I was lucky enough that I was able to practice down in Miami too, like the last year that I was there before moving here. So yeah, so I still want to, I still believe in it.

Bonnie (51:22.478)
Yeah.

Bonnie (51:39.884)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (51:44.031)
my most fit it was because of Pilates that kept me in shape like I was doing like Pilates like four days a week and maybe weight training like two three days a week and every week in the weight room I was hitting new you know I was gaining adding more weight and it was simply because I was of what I was doing in on the reformer or in Pilates because I was able to

Bonnie (51:48.492)
Hmm.

Bonnie (52:02.636)
Mm -hmm.

Bonnie (52:07.95)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (52:10.976)
control my whole body instead of just doing repetitive movements with load. And so.

Bonnie (52:15.022)
Yeah. Yeah. I, well, and, and yoga very much. I mean, I haven't spent enough time with Pilates, but there is definitely a certain types of yoga where there's less control being asked of your whole body. the way that I teach it, it demands a little bit more of that of like full body awareness and a lot more control of, of using your trunk and your, cause your core is, is.

everything from below your butt to like the your diaphragm, like a circumference. Like it's, it's so much more than just like sucking your belly to your spine. Like it's a lot more than that. And, and so there is more demand or like more ask for, for folks to have to pay attention to have to useful body awareness, depending on class type and teacher. And I think that, I mean, that can extend to a lot of different, I think styles of movement.

Woby Lang (53:06.72)
Yeah, when I when it comes to plies I always tell people like if you have the money

get like 10 private sessions first, so that A, you can get B assessed in what your, where your body's overcompensating and where you're imbalanced. B, it's a, it's a mental checklist. Like you're constantly having to check your body and scan your body of like what's out of position and then control it with your breath and then put it to having a rhythm and cadence. So it's a lot. And when you just, when you just take classes,

Bonnie (53:25.358)
Yeah.

Bonnie (53:30.414)
Mm.

Bonnie (53:37.068)
Mm -hmm.

Bonnie (53:42.604)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (53:44.162)
pass and just kind of like jump into the group classes like you're not gonna get what Joseph Pilati's intended for you to you know be benefited by the practice like you

Bonnie (53:48.94)
Hmm.

Bonnie (53:54.348)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's good advice.

Woby Lang (53:58.56)
you're just not gonna like get you can like that's why people think like the gopal eyes and they're like you know if an athlete like i hear all the time from athletes like this isn't hard right it's like yeah because you took a group class where the teacher wasn't like giving you cues personal cues on like where you need to access and be you know aligned and you're just there doing the motions and not being aware

checking in with your body and you have to. And same thing for ghost free yoga. You see it, I think you see it all the time where people are just like, but no, you want to be graceful and you want to be controlled and have motor control and you know, don't just plop your ankles down. You know, same thing for basketball. It's like, you don't want to just run and jump and then just allow your

Bonnie (54:25.038)
Yeah. Yeah.

Bonnie (54:36.256)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (54:44.5)
to just hit the floor just because your shoes are doing all the absorption for you you want to control and go slow and steady and be able to like we don't like We don't train either like how to fall right like triple extension jumping into the air and then being able to land and absorb and just or just like take the hit and just fall right and

Bonnie (54:50.446)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Bonnie (55:01.324)
Mm.

Bonnie (55:06.83)
absorb it.

Bonnie (55:11.598)
Totally, totally. Well, I actually, I give this example when I work with yoga teachers and I use actually a quote from Born to Run, but about how we land and I actually will demonstrate on video because it's like, it depends on if I'm in the room with them or online, either way. If I'm on video or in a computer, I'm in the room and like, okay, so if I were to jump off both feet, I can land here and I can land with both feet and I can slap them on the floor.

And I can also jump up in the air and I can land and be ninja soft. And the difference of control of your body where you just land and pound or you land and you're a ninja feet, right? Like a panther feet. And the awareness that you can have and build in your body to be able to do that, to have that sort of control. And when I think about the book, Born to Run, it's a coach that talks about running.

If people want to come to him and like want to run fast and he's like, no, don't worry. Don't worry about being fast. He's like, I want you to be easy, like make every step easy, then make every step light, then make every step smooth. Then you'll be fast. You don't have to worry about being fast. Be easy, light and smooth. And I think about that with yoga and the way that I like to structure a yoga class is really in mind with our gate actually and with.

The way that we will walk will be like left leg forward, right hand will swing forward and then we switch. And within yoga world, there oftentimes will be, we might be standing open to warrior two to a side, then we'll go reverse warrior, then we'll go extend side angle, still open to the same side, then maybe it's triangle, then maybe it's half moon. Like it's staying open, like there's a little bit of wiggling that happens, but you don't alternate, like you stay all on one side and.

Sometimes in a power yoga class, it's a burnout of maybe a particular leg where you just keep like the front leg bent. And so you're just like, okay, I'm lunging for the next, you know, three minutes. This is what we're doing. We're not keeping this bent, this leg straight. And so the hips are maybe staying open so you don't have like a square hip, like kind of like a normal standing hip. So it's really interesting, I think to me to kind of create that pattern of.

Bonnie (57:34.926)
where we're alternating and we're thinking like one arm forward, one arm back and like finding that the change continually throughout the sequencing, it makes you have to use a lot more control in your body and you don't realize it. And like the struggle isn't then, and the struggle no longer is in the burn of your thigh for having to hold maybe that position for a long time, but instead the struggle then becomes,

how to control your body through space and where is your foot and how do you find the reach and the pullback and the push and the pull and so it becomes like a different thing but it's all about control.

Woby Lang (58:12.416)
That's very much.

Yeah, that's very much Pilates and the original name for Pilates is actually from Joseph Pilates was Contrology, which is just like understanding how to control your body. And what you're saying is like all that, right? Like, how do you go from this position to that position? But also like, you know, even like what you're saying, if you're, you know, if you're in triangle or a half moon and then reverse warrior, it's like,

Bonnie (58:28.428)
Yeah, fascinating. Yeah.

Woby Lang (58:46.336)
people don't realize like just by having my hands out and you know the whole beach ball pose right like that in itself does so much more than just like I'm gonna go into this position you know and fling my arms around it's like no if you're able to like slowly like have the proper you know engaging of the shoulders away from the ears you know creating tension through your hands right that will like your hands are connected all the way down to your hip through your fascia so it's like you're here and then you're holding

Bonnie (58:59.694)
Mm -hmm.

Bonnie (59:14.766)
Mm -hmm.

Woby Lang (59:16.29)
that tension, then you're also going to get strong hips, right? Like it's like the whole body workout, but like people don't, aren't necessarily put into that awareness, you know? And like, and then, and then also because of just like how it's just like the practice is now like sold and marketed, it's like group classes and all these things. So it's like, you don't really, you're not going to get the attention that you may need to have that awareness.

Bonnie (59:19.31)
Mm -hmm.

Bonnie (59:26.574)
Yeah.

Bonnie (59:39.342)
True.

True, and where Pilates, I feel like in Pilates world, there is more, I feel like it's more accepted, like having private Pilates classes is totally a thing. But in the yoga world, it's not very, if people do it, it's available, but it's not as forward -facing, I feel like, as much as Pilates and having a private Pilates classes. So it's interesting. Yeah. Let's talk about,

I want to hear a little bit about splay. I definitely have like my grandma who has bunions, my mom, my sister. I don't. I was always like the athlete though. I always like had like shoes and I have good toe splay. My kids are always kind of freaked out at how far apart I can spread my toes. But my mom wears spacers and I guess I've always wondered.

like should well should everybody be wearing spacers? I guess is that a question that you what you think like I don't want to put a should on there and then if we're trying to train our feet or if people it's it's of course going to be different if somebody really has aggressive bunions and it's really quite painful for them but is is spacers just is spacers are spacers enough?

Or what should people be doing maybe outside of having a spacers? Cause spacers just like forcing your toes apart versus how do you actually help your toes actually spread without the spacers and where the spacers are the assistant in those other times when you're not doing that active work.

Woby Lang (01:01:23.648)
Good question. So for those who don't know, these are toe spacers. There's all different kinds. Correct toes, they make a good one. But the type of material does matter. You know, if you buy your cheap version on Amazon, they're not gonna last as long. It's gonna feel squishy in the beginning, but then it'll lose its memory and just kind of not really be there.

This is where I started, you know, I just, I wore these. I bought shoes from Bevo Barefoot that I wore these in the shoes when I was working as a waiter on my feet for the only waiter in one restaurant for working double shifts, you know, all day long. And I wore either.

Like when I wasn't in shoes, I was either wearing being from Miami, you can get away with it where you can wear sandals all day long, you know, outside of work with the toe spacers or these that are sock shoes. There's all types of brands. Basically, it's like a knitted sock with like a dipped textured rubber outsole. And that's where that's how I started.

Bonnie (01:02:45.356)
Hmm.

Woby Lang (01:02:48.05)
But my main thing was like wearing these and I'm the type of person that is either all -in It's all or nothing. And so there's no there's no like I went cold turkey which is probably what you shouldn't do like I got rid of all my shoes except for playing basketball and And just kind of slowly build my collection of barefoot shoes, but I wore these like

10 hours a day, like, and I would even wear them to sleep. And yes, it's gonna maybe cut off your circulation. So when it does, when it starts to hurt, just take them off.

Don't put yourself through torture just like take it off Okay, and let your feet rest and then you put them back on and you go five more minutes You know like you're supposed to like where does I'm like where's the five where the pretend where the for 15 now? Go on a walk with them or even I tell people have you even tried them in a yoga class like have you done mountain pose? with these on You know like before and like just trying to do what you normally do like have you worn these to to squat or deadlift like?

Bonnie (01:03:39.502)
Hmm.

Bonnie (01:03:47.278)
Hmm.

Woby Lang (01:03:56.838)
you know, like, have you tried it? I don't know. So, and see what that feels like. You know, the barefoot journey starts with yourself and starts with like, you know, a self exploration through movement. And...

Bonnie (01:04:00.856)
Interesting.

Woby Lang (01:04:17.344)
and just like being mindful. So like the other thing is like, so like, you know, have you worn these and walked barefoot and walked slowly and like what I call like rocking out, which is like a try and achieve triple extension between the big toe of the knee and the hip and just kind of like, like.

waiting to the last moment and putting all the pressure in the big toe and having your leg extended out behind you.

kind of seeing where your body wants to jump and transfer energy like either like you know we're all misaligned so it's like your your mechanics might go from like your toe and then wants to like jump to the rest of the foot and go directly to the ankle but like are you like being aware of like how how is it moving through my arch you know there's seven arches different arches in your foot so it's like all different types of movement so how are you transferring energy through your body you know are you becoming mindless?

Bonnie (01:04:54.444)
Mmm.

Woby Lang (01:05:19.266)
Are you like, are you noticing that your hips is always like, you know, collapsed versus like open and how does that affect your chest or your back or your shoulders? So this was first and you're supposed to dose your usage. And yeah, I just, I just went for it. Now.

Bonnie (01:05:40.398)
but you were like, I'm just gonna wear it the entire day now.

Woby Lang (01:05:49.332)
you know, depending when you start, you know, you're, you're trying to undo a lifetime of habitual, deformation that has happened because of conventional footwear. and a, your subconscious is going to fight it, because it's like, this feels weird. I don't want to do this. Why are you making me do this? I want to go back to what I'm used to. B,

It's gonna take time. It's not a quick fix. And C, just by wearing these is not gonna achieve optimal splay. You have to do exercises. You have to like literally sit there and bend your big toe and your second toe like back and forth, apart.

you know, then go to the next two, put them back and forth apart, you know, like doing like holding it for 10 seconds. And then, you know, literally like putting all like putting your feet or your toes through these exercises. You know, I literally call it toe yoga. And then depending how bad it is, like maybe you need to have a toe band.

Bonnie (01:06:59.724)
Mm -hmm.

Woby Lang (01:07:07.584)
Sorry, I don't know how to turn off my notifications on my computer. And so, yeah, so it's like, you may need depending, like everyone's different, right? Like some people's bunions are worse than others. Some people's ankle mobility is worse than others. Some people have hammer toe.

Bonnie (01:07:10.414)
You're good. You're good.

Woby Lang (01:07:30.94)
you know, maybe their pinky has a bunion, not on the big toe. So it's like, everyone's different and everyone has a start, a starting place that's different. And there's no one protocol that is good for everybody. And.

Bonnie (01:07:45.486)
I love that answer though. I mean, so I think sometimes it's frustrating, but I think I always love the answer. It depends. Like where are you starting? Like what do you, what are you starting with? Like what experience do you have and where do you want to go? Then like, it depends.

Woby Lang (01:07:58.24)
Yeah, like I have a friend who's a dancer and I kind of introduced him to the world of barefoot shoes and mobility and and so we know him a lot and he has a bad bunion from wearing sneakers and

He started, I got him a pair, I was able to hook him up with two pairs of Vibram five fingers, and they're both a little different. And so one pair is like really good for him, he says, but another pair like cuts off the big toe, the circulation of the big toe. But that's because he has a really bad bunion. So it's like, you can do more harm than good by going, by doing too much too fast.

Bonnie (01:08:33.134)
Hmm.

Bonnie (01:08:37.55)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:08:44.076)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (01:08:44.458)
Or like, so like for him, I wouldn't recommend wearing toe spacers all day long because it could actually hurt like him. And so, so you have to kind of dose yourself, you know, little by little, like, and so he got a dislike.

Bonnie (01:08:55.47)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (01:09:04.736)
textured board that helps them. the other thing is break up your feet. Use lacrosse balls, use standing mats, pressure mats, whatever the case may be, you know, rocks, pebbles, texture, anything, gravel, to literally like wake up your feet, puncture your feet, literally create space, articulate all those 33 joints that have been locked together because of constrictive footwear, you know.

Bonnie (01:09:23.118)
Mmm.

Bonnie (01:09:30.702)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (01:09:35.168)
with Pilates and probably with yoga too, you're told that your body's like neural cortex and motor, myocortex functions, whatever. You need to do Pilates like within like seven, 48 to 72 hours of the previous session. Because otherwise your body, your subconscious and your central nervous system is just gonna like reset everything back to what it's used to doing.

And so if you don't have a daily practice and you don't, or at least like every other day or whatever, like.

your body's just gonna fight it and go back to what, how it normally operates. That you're, you know, you've put your body in a, you know, a lifetime of, you know, chairs and footwear that constrict your movements and shorten your end ranges. And now you wanna reset that, but your body's gonna fight it until it finally like, now you've habitually trained it to be in a new state of...

Bonnie (01:10:31.214)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (01:10:36.904)
of standing, of being. And so it takes time.

Bonnie (01:10:38.67)
Yeah.

Well, that totally, and that totally makes sense because I mean, it is a habit, right? Like our body will respond to the demands that we're asking of it. And so if you don't put yourself in very many situations where you have to do the thing or you have to learn something different or, or put your body in a different way or put your brain, wrap your brain and your attention around something differently, then we'll just go back to what is more common and more.

comfortable in a way, just because more comfortable because we know it and because we're so habitually used to it already.

Woby Lang (01:11:16.542)
Our bodies are master adapters and our brain patterns and the we think is like, you know, we are what we think. Well, we are and we aren't. Your thoughts don't define you, right? But if you repeat it enough like a mantra, it'll manifest itself. So if your body, you know...

Bonnie (01:11:25.742)
Yeah. I mean, well, yeah.

Right, are we all?

Bonnie (01:11:38.582)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (01:11:42.496)
If you're putting your body in these things, in these constrictive footwear and you're having repeated improper patterns of movement, then it only makes sense that we start to get injured and break down way earlier than we should be. And the reverse of that is true too, where it's like, we need to constantly be mindful and correct ourselves. Otherwise your body's going to go back to what it normally, what it wants to do.

Bonnie (01:11:56.59)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:12:11.374)
Yeah, yeah.

Bonnie (01:12:16.782)
This is where the conversation is going. I am gonna think, I'm thinking about how when I was a kiddo, I shared a bed with my little sister. We have seven years apart. I'm the oldest and she's the youngest. And I remember thinking that, so she's like very little. In the times when we shared a bed, eventually we had two twins that we had in our room. But.

like it's not that old, but I just remember having the experience where if she put her feet on me, I was like, I didn't want to touch feet. There was some, for some reason I always felt like her feet or us touching feet was too intimate or it was like, it was like a way of intimacy of feet touching, which is funny. And also like maybe there's something to that in a way because people are like, I'm going to play footsie, right? Like you touch feet and like, that's like a,

a whole kind of meme of maybe people like each other is like your feet are touching, right? There's other body parts that could be, you know, you're like your legs are touching whatever, right? But like, so I think it's interesting. I don't know. I don't know what thoughts you have on this. I'd like to know your thoughts on the intimacy of feet and where some people are very like, I'm not touching your feet and other people are like, I fucking love your feet. Like give me all the feet. A feet do.

are an interesting sort of divider sometimes of people and especially on the realms of like kind of intimacy. Like do you have any thoughts on that?

Woby Lang (01:13:49.376)
Yes, so just to be clear, I'm not coming from a side of fetishism when it comes to feet. I am just strictly optimizing mobility and longevity. Because I've definitely been asked that before, do you have a thing with feet? And I'm like, no, I just have a thing with overall good health. But the reason I think, I'm not a scientist, I'm not a doctor, I'm just.

Bonnie (01:13:59.638)
I want the science.

Bonnie (01:14:07.374)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Bonnie (01:14:14.83)
No, I wanna know what you think about it, because this is so interesting.

Woby Lang (01:14:18.048)
I think it goes back to like, well, why are we so sensitive about it? Well, A, we have the most amount of receptors in our feet, right? So whatever contact we have, we're gonna immediately be aware of it because it's a feedback loop mechanism between our brain, our central nervous system and our feet. And so whatever we touch with our feet or if feet are touching us, maybe there's...

something that's connected, wired directly to our brain. And then that's where it's either divisive, right? I think it's like either like we love it or we hate it because either it's out of sight, out of mind, or we're aware of why feet are, and good feet are like good for you.

Bonnie (01:15:01.87)
Mm -hmm.

Woby Lang (01:15:12.512)
The intimacy, yeah. I mean, I think it's because we, out of sight, out of mind, same thing with like orthodox religions and covering up the body, when you now see it, right? It's more sensual, it's more arousing to see.

Bonnie (01:15:23.95)
True.

Bonnie (01:15:33.102)
It's like seeing somebody's ankles or wrists back in the day, you're like, my gosh.

Woby Lang (01:15:37.472)
Yeah, and now you're being vulnerable with me and you're showing me your feet. Like, because I haven't seen it all day, like I think there's something to that too.

Bonnie (01:15:43.598)
Yeah.

Well, you know what's interesting is the amount of memes or times that people have posted on Instagram about folks who take off their shoes on the airplanes and how frustrated people get you're taking your shoes off.

Woby Lang (01:16:02.08)
Yeah, I always take my shoes. Like, your feet get swollen in the air. Like, why would I want to keep them? I don't know. Whatever.

Bonnie (01:16:07.374)
Yeah, well, and yeah, you don't know, wearing compression socks and stuff too. But I mean, if your feet do smell bad, I'm like, just be aware of your foot smell, maybe. But at the same time, I'm like, I'm really not against people. I mean, if you're on the plane for hours, like, let's just take off your shoes. Like, why is that a big deal? But there is a lot of people who do not like that. But it's, I don't know, like.

Woby Lang (01:16:16.096)
yeah, of course, of course.

Bonnie (01:16:35.054)
It's an interesting thing of intimacy, I think, that people sharing their feet that does ignite quite a bit of opinion. So I just think it's fascinating. And even, I think my time on social media where like there's, and this kind of gets to the fetish side of it, but I think it all loops back because then I think there's a lot of people who might think of feet as like fetish land. And then when you're like, okay, put my feet away, right? But then like,

a foot health then lands within that if you're just putting them away. So I think it all does get tied together. And anyway, so my time on social media where if I have showed my feet, there's definitely times when I'm like, wait, if I post this picture, here's my foot, somebody who really likes feet is going to give me a foot comment. And I've got to the point where I'm just like, I don't care. Like, here you go, free feet, whatever. Like maybe it's maybe my feet are on some random website and that's fine.

whenever I have feet. And I don't know, I wonder if then folks do worry about that. And then it also makes you wanna put your feet away, which also then makes you not think about them, which then makes you not want to like expand your thoughts and be curious about your feet. And so I think in all of it, I'm like, we just have to talk about this more. Like, okay, somebody likes feet, cool. And also like,

What does that mean if you don't? Or I don't know, I just, it's so curious to me.

Woby Lang (01:18:04.346)
I think part of it is also like societal norms and so and like cultural norms so you know up until like the Congress was created like sneaker culture wasn't a thing and so before that you shoes weren't all that accessible and so I think even up until like the 70s in the south

Bonnie (01:18:28.91)
Mm.

Woby Lang (01:18:34.048)
It was custom to see people walking around town and main highway of small town USA barefoot. and especially in rural areas.

Bonnie (01:18:44.11)
Yeah, I guess the sign in the stores is like no shirt, no shoes, no service, right?

Woby Lang (01:18:50.176)
Some in some places. Yeah. And so, so then we, you know, because of the silence norms, we are forced to like cover them up all day. And so out of sight, out of mind. And it goes back to everything you were saying. But yeah. And then also because of footwear, it's like, yeah, like I think for women as they're, they have more, you know, more foot problems than men later in life because of the shoes that they wear, like.

women's feet are deformed. So then that becomes an issue of insecurity of like, I've got a really bad bunion. I don't want to show my feet, you know, so I don't want to ever take them off or, you know, take my shoes off or my socks off because I'm embarrassed by them, by the form. So yeah, so I think, I think all that comes into play, but.

Bonnie (01:19:27.374)
Hmm.

Bonnie (01:19:40.942)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (01:19:46.336)
And then, but the thing is it's like, you know, I remember I went hardcore for a while where I was only like wearing.

Either like socks like this or literally like walking my dog barefoot in town and around the beach and stuff and going into stores barefoot and all these things. And they're like, but aren't like, you know, people would say like, but like that's weird. That's gross. That's dirty. Like, yeah, but I wash my feet every day when I go home. Like when was the last time you wash the bottom of your shoes?

Bonnie (01:20:14.862)
Mm.

Woby Lang (01:20:23.166)
bottoms of your shoes are way dirtier than my bare feet. You know what I mean? So it's like, so it's just like, we hope there's a double standard, I think when it comes to like actual barefoot and, and like, like shod versus unshod, like, you know, like having your foot be free versus not. And then also, between like the standards of like,

Bonnie (01:20:26.542)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (01:20:51.232)
barefoot shoe brand versus a regular like corporate big corporation footwear brand because yeah, so there's there's a whole double standard that goes that comes into play when people are like trying to.

not criticized, but when they see something new, they hold it to a different standard than what is the normal. They wanna question it more and they're like, well, when was the last time you questioned the normal things that were provided for you because big corporations are trying to make a profit and not necessarily care about the health of you? Like, yeah, so.

Bonnie (01:21:13.646)
Yeah. Yeah.

Bonnie (01:21:25.166)
Yeah.

Yeah. so good. I think this ties into before we start recording, you had said that when you get closer to the ground, it makes you a little bit closer to the frequency of everybody else. Will you riff a little bit on that?

Woby Lang (01:21:45.824)
Yeah, so everything in nature has a vibrating frequency. High or low, whatever that may be. All our organs, all our body parts, all our muscles, they all resonate at different levels.

Woby Lang (01:22:06.624)
And in the world of quantum physics and entanglement and all these things, you can see the world as a vacuum and of different radiating frequencies or streams of frequencies of different, like waves at different frequencies, right? Some are long, some are short. And it's all about how you...

perceive them that creates our reality at different frequency of wavelength, right? The energy, scale of energy or whatever, and then the scale of light and even physical material, it's all vibrating at a higher frequency. And so, and then if you wanna get into the hologram realm and entanglement, we can too, but.

Everything is moving and everything is revolving and everything is has its own resonance and frequency and so the earth has its own frequency and it creates its own radiating energy within space and we are on that floating rock in space that's going you know thousands of miles an hour into space.

Bonnie (01:23:03.982)
Mm.

Woby Lang (01:23:30.708)
And so when we're grounding, we tap into that natural frequency of the earth. But because we've built up our environment with concrete, with synthetic fabrics, with processed foods, all those things have zero to little frequency. And so that lowers our frequency and that lowers our optimal.

resonance of being for all of our internal organs, our skin, et cetera, et cetera. And so by taking off, by wearing conventional shoes that have like a thick, you know, a hookah or whatever that's super high off the ground, that's super rigid, that's super inflexible,

we've now disconnected ourselves from the earth's frequency, from that natural resonance, from that high resonating level of being, and we've lowered our frequency. And so, you know, there's a reason why they say like cats are healing and music is healing. And, you know, in ancient times, they used to play like in the Moors used to play the guitar over someone's belly and it would like heal them and stuff like that. So like,

Bonnie (01:24:39.502)
Hmm.

Woby Lang (01:24:49.514)
It's because it raises our frequency. It triggers things in our mind and our body that like, you know, it turns on and off DNA. And so lack of movement, processed foods and synthetic fabrics are like the three main things that like lower our frequency at any given moment. Negative thoughts lower our frequency. And so...

By being disconnected from the ground, it lowers our frequency. And now if we are able to then all be closer to the ground and be able to receive and conduct that frequency and tune into that frequency of the earth, we all raise our resonance and our level of consciousness. And we have a better like group consciousness of like.

You know, I believe in it. I think, you know, I was already empathetic because of my diverse background, but there's a perception, a perceptual change in your, in your mind that happens when you go barefoot, like literally like walk barefoot because at first, you know, everyone's like, well, aren't you like gonna step on some glass or, you know, step in on a needle or whatever the case may be and get, you know, a fungus or whatever.

Bonnie (01:26:07.478)
Mm -hmm.

Woby Lang (01:26:19.648)
And it's like, well, your peripheral vision gets stronger, right? Like you don't walk with your head down all the time.

Bonnie (01:26:25.174)
Hmm.

Woby Lang (01:26:30.112)
Right? Like you, yes, in the beginning, maybe you walk slower. You're more aware of like you're forced to literally be more aware of your surroundings until the point where you don't have to look down. And I can like tell like, there's shards of, even though I'm looking over here, I can see that there's shards of glass over there. So my mind's gonna take me over that way. Like, like, and so.

Bonnie (01:26:39.054)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:26:49.742)
Yeah. It's like watching, it's like watching small children learn how to walk. Like you have to look at the stairs. They, and then eventually we're walking on the stairs without looking at how to walk downstairs.

Woby Lang (01:26:58.88)
Right. Right. And like in our minds, like, you know, when you say like, I want to drive or I want to write a pen or I want to shoot a basketball, like, are you telling your body like every single motor control function that you have to do to achieve that? No.

Like you're just doing it. And so eventually like your body figures out like how I should be walking barefoot. You know, shortening your stride length, increasing your, your rate of step. And so it creates a greater sense of awareness of your surroundings, including the, not only the things that are in it, the inanimate objects that are in it, but then also you become more aware.

Bonnie (01:27:21.006)
Mm -hmm.

Woby Lang (01:27:49.376)
the people in your environment, in your immediate environment when you're closer to the ground. did we lose connection? So we like, when you ground yourself and walk barefoot within nature and or have shoes that allow you to be closer to the ground, you're creating a stronger.

connection of connectivity and conductivity of everyone's frequency. And now, you know, like, your thoughts are electrical impulses, we're 70 % water in our bodies, like, we're all just streams of electrical energy. And so when you become close to the ground and are grounded, like we're all connected to one another eventually, like the phrase, you know, we're all one.

Bonnie (01:28:38.286)
Mm -hmm.

Woby Lang (01:28:41.152)
like that's been proven mathematically. And like, so like, yeah, it just plays out in that like esoteric realm of like, woohoo, black magic, but like, whatever, like it's true, it's all true.

Bonnie (01:28:51.276)
Yeah.

Yeah. But I love it. I love it. You know, it does get to the woo -woo part of like things because I mean, if you start to really think and you're like, okay, wait, so my body is just a layer of cells that eventually becomes like the air around my body, but they're like just next to like, but everything is just next to each other anyway. And so where do, right? Everything's like, everything's touching everything.

Woby Lang (01:29:16.192)
Nothing's touching. Nothing. Like, I'm just beautiful.

Bonnie (01:29:22.03)
And so what's mine or yours or theirs or whatever it is, it's fascinating. And I mean, it is true. And I think we can have the conversation that is rather feels quite philosophical. But if you just do it, it's like, OK, hold all judgments at bay for a moment and just go take off your shoes and just go stand in the grass and go walk across.

your driveway and go walk in some woods, like go walk on the dirt, like just go put yourself in it. And we all know, I mean, like it's a totally a thing, like you go stand by the ocean, how does it feel to stand next to the ocean? You go walk in some mountains with some like big trees around you, that has a feeling like to put yourself in spaces that are more heavily nature than they are like.

buildings and pavement has a feeling to it. And so to take off your shoes and put your feet in the sand and to put it in some dirt and to like walk around barefoot. And, you of course, yes, we can do this in the city as well. But like it does it it does change. Like there is a difference there.

Woby Lang (01:30:36.416)
And it, I mean, to break it down, it's all just an exchange of electrical ions and, you know, like, and electrical charges. So like, you're at the beach, and you know, you're exchanging energy with the moving, you know, current, right? Like moving water has an electrical charge.

and now you're in it or you're next to it and that charge is now affecting you and that's why you have...

you know emotions when it's high tide or when the moon's out and the full moon because the high tide is greater and all these things it's like gravity and physics is always coming into play and like nature is always going to give you ions and protons or whatever it's like it's it's going to charge you the sun is going to charge you and so being barefoot can also help with that because now you're closer to the ground.

Bonnie (01:31:36.558)
This is like all of us who are currently here in Portland who are like, there is sunshine, I feel amazing.

Woby Lang (01:31:40.928)
Right? How happy are we now versus in the winter? Like...

Bonnie (01:31:47.246)
So true. Okay, as we wrap here a little bit, I would love for you to share what you're working on, because you're working on some cool stuff. You are currently, you have a cleat available that is a barefoot cleat, and you have a basketball shoe as well, yeah?

Woby Lang (01:32:05.568)
The basketball shoe is a but it's functional. It's my own thing. But yes.

Bonnie (01:32:09.132)
Mm -hmm.

Woby Lang (01:32:16.768)
So yeah, so I have all these shoes with me right now. I can quickly go through them, but I'll start. Yeah, I'll start with the current product offering that I have worked on is this soccer cleat from Natchur Athletics. We offer adult and kid sizes. We're sold out of the adult right now. We're gonna restock in the fall. So that's Natchur.

reverse but N -A -T -U -R athletics and these are clearly flat, clearly wide and flexible.

Bonnie (01:32:57.518)
Mm.

Woby Lang (01:32:58.506)
So I designed the outsole and the cleat system so that like these pads right here, they all work independently and like they flex and like there's a little cut like a little groove here that allows for like more flexion when you need it. And it goes for all of them, right? So you can really, you can see right there that there's that groove. And so, and then the white is a different density so that it has proper

Bonnie (01:33:15.95)
for like the big toe.

Woby Lang (01:33:28.65)
load and distribution of weight so you're not feeling stud pressure when you're because it is thin and so and the feedback has been great super comfortable the traction is works on turf and grass and

Bonnie (01:33:33.324)
Mm.

Woby Lang (01:33:46.176)
And yeah, so far so good. People love them. People feel like they're ready to, you know, just go versus like their cleats that like they feel like they hurt, you know. And, but that, my journey didn't start with these. My journey, you know, first started with Earth Runners. Highly recommend. Started with Skinners.

Bonnie (01:33:53.326)
That's cool.

Woby Lang (01:34:13.876)
From there I got Vivo Barefoot which is generally like the go -to brand. So I have several Vivo Barefoot shoes but in that I was still playing basketball with regular shoes to the point now where

like your feet will change. Like your feet can go like half a size, like up because now like your feet are more like your feet are not bunched up. There's more space between your bones and joints and your toes are now relaxed and in more natural position. And so like I was always like a nine and a half 10 now.

Bonnie (01:34:45.878)
Mm -hmm.

Woby Lang (01:35:00.832)
at least a 10, a 10 and a half with some brands because not only did my toes relax, but...

Bonnie (01:35:03.82)
Mm -hmm.

Woby Lang (01:35:10.464)
If I want a shoe that has full width, I'm gonna need like I want to go half a size up depending on like the curvature of the toe box. So I wore Vivo barefoot. I was wearing basketball shoes to the point where because not then my feet grew, I couldn't wear my regular basketball shoes anymore and they were actually hurt me from like not allowing me to play. And so where are they? I was wearing...

Bonnie (01:35:20.876)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (01:35:40.48)
these shoes from Vivo Barefoot and thinking that like this outsole with like these hexagons cut out were gonna act like little suction cups. And I was like, this seems like it could work for basketball.

And it did, except for the fact that it's, there's a lot of room, which is called, between like where your toes are and the, like the stick length of the last. So the stick length is like how far from like end to end inside the shoe it is. But then there's something called toe ease, which is like how much room do you have between the front of the shoe and your toes? And so these are like a little too long.

Bonnie (01:36:16.142)
Okay.

Woby Lang (01:36:27.33)
And so when I was trying to stop on a dime, my feet would go forward and get crunched. And like after like the third time I was like, I can't do that anymore. And so that is what brought me to Portland to learn from Jason. And we made the version of this out of wood first. And then a couple of months later I came back and I made my first pair of shoes ever. And these are men's shoes.

Bonnie (01:36:29.678)
Woby Lang (01:36:55.936)
and like they're a little thicker obviously because like there's like layers of EVA and leather and so yeah so I designed this I put like it has like a little gusset you slip them right in I think they're perfect like surprisingly like I had to put this like flat sheet of rubber because I want a cup soul I mean without getting too into the details of design but like

Where am I going to find, like I can't just find an Air Force One outsole to put on this. I have to custom make it. So I've been learning how to do things like that with 3D printing and all that stuff. But here I just took like some grounded up rubber tire, turned it, like use a cheese grater and like grind it into like dust and like mixed it with shoe glue. And I wrapped everything. And then, but then like after the second or third time using them to play basketball on concrete, I had to patch it, patch it every time.

Bonnie (01:37:29.774)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (01:37:54.85)
time and I was like it's not feasible if I want to continue playing so then I like put this on it and it works fine. So I don't wear these often enough to play basketball because you know these are still prototypes and sometimes like this you know comes off and I don't want to like ruin them but the last time I used them to play basketball I played indoors and I was playing with people

Bonnie (01:37:57.486)
Mmm.

Bonnie (01:38:11.874)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (01:38:23.36)
Five on five, 10 years younger than me. And I was hitting game winners, taking, you know, running up full court, finishing at the rim, you know, hitting threes, passing everything, doing it all. And so I started learning that. Then I made like a pair of like skate inspired shoes that like have like, you know.

Bonnie (01:38:33.133)
Yeah.

Hahaha!

Bonnie (01:38:46.926)
cool.

Bonnie (01:38:52.878)
Those are cool looking.

Woby Lang (01:38:53.024)
And but I went too minimal where I didn't put a heel counter. So like it sometimes it like moves around that have heel stability, but like I'm learning and going around that time is when I joined forces with natural athletics to design and prototype the shoe.

Bonnie (01:39:02.382)
Hmm.

Woby Lang (01:39:13.034)
Then I went to Barcelona to learn how to do some more shoemaking and I made this version of an old Spanish farming shoe that was basically like, it's called a porquera, which means two things. It can mean like the porquera from puerco means like the...

Bonnie (01:39:23.118)
That was beautiful.

Woby Lang (01:39:38.528)
like the pig feed bag that's made out of canvas. But porqueta could also mean like the whatever shoe because it's like whatever pieces of leather you could find or whatever like trims of the pig that you were left over, like with a simple pattern, like a five piece pattern, you could make a shoe with the canvas bag. And so it was like a farming shoe that they used like centuries ago. And I just made a modern twist. I made my own, you I used

Bonnie (01:39:41.838)
Okay.

Bonnie (01:39:55.884)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:40:08.142)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (01:40:08.482)
the last and I made my own version of it. I really think that this has like the, I use this for dance and it's great but I learned a lot from this construction and so then from there I made a newer last. This is like my more athletic version so you can see.

I changed the width a little bit and it's not necessarily so flat. It has a little toe spring and slight heel lift because...

Bonnie (01:40:38.637)
Interesting. Yeah.

Woby Lang (01:40:46.816)
In my mind, I'm thinking like, how can I make a shoe put you like in the athletic stance with your heels raised, toes and dorsal flexion? And if this were a knitted upper, something that I learned was that like, you don't need it to be at its widest if it's gonna be able to like move with your foot. So I made it a little more neutral. And then from there, I made using this one,

Bonnie (01:41:08.662)
Ugh.

Woby Lang (01:41:16.882)
I made these shoes. I use these for dance when I go out and dance Afrobeats. So like wide toe box and you know it has a little bit of a heel but also I added in a feature of like the way that this sits it's not 90 degrees it's a little bit at 85 like from here to here.

Bonnie (01:41:24.014)
fun.

Bonnie (01:41:29.006)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:41:45.422)
for your last, yeah.

Woby Lang (01:41:47.058)
So that like when you're cutting It can like hold you embrace embrace the forces and then help you Lift off and so you really feel that with this shoe after that I made A few others So basically I got into like 3d knitting so I took apart

Bonnie (01:41:53.454)
Mmm.

Bonnie (01:41:58.606)
Fascinating.

Woby Lang (01:42:16.)
these pairs of Trey Young Adidas shoes that are like 3D circular knitting and they're performance basketball shoes. But I took the soles off and then I made it fit this last and I constructed it by putting this ram, this leather around.

and then just kind of made it like a dress shoe. And I don't have the cup sold technology, but I'm still trying to understand and teach myself, or through my mentors and shoe making, how to construct shoes by hand so I can learn it. And then how does that now...

Bonnie (01:42:39.596)
Wow. Wow.

Woby Lang (01:42:59.264)
How can that be manufactured with more industrial processes or advanced technology like 3D printing? And so I have this knitted version and then I have these Nikes.

Bonnie (01:43:13.966)
Those are so cool. I want a pair of those.

Woby Lang (01:43:16.232)
This is an Air Force One, a knitted Air Force One that I took. And so this was a size, I'm a size 10, right? In order for me to get the right sizing of material, I have to go like at least two, like find shoes that are like at least two sizes bigger.

Bonnie (01:43:22.766)
Okay.

Bonnie (01:43:36.014)
Mm -hmm.

Woby Lang (01:43:36.896)
And that just goes to show you like, in order for it to have enough surface area across this width of a toe box, a 10 will like end like right here. I needed to go all the way around. I need like a 12, 13, sometimes a 14 depending on the material. And so, so yeah, so I made these and I'm, you know, the whole time that I'm designing, I'm trying to go for aesthetics too, right? Like not just performance, like.

Bonnie (01:43:41.646)
yeah.

Bonnie (01:43:50.272)
Wow.

Bonnie (01:44:00.398)
Yeah, those are beautiful. Like I want to wear those.

Woby Lang (01:44:04.544)
Thank you. And then I have, you know, this was another like a woven, I took an old pair of Jordans that had a woven upper and did the same thing.

Bonnie (01:44:17.422)
For everybody who's listening to this podcast and not watching this section, I'm just like, y 'all say.

Woby Lang (01:44:25.088)
And so right now I'm trying to understand like, you know, I made this basketball shoe that my first one out of leather and I want...

incorporate modern technology, modern fabrics, or modern knitted uppers, ideally it'd be great to have a performance line with all natural materials, natural gum leather, natural gum rubber, woven textures, or knitted textures that are from hemp or cotton or whatever.

but that takes a lot of research and development and a lot of money. And so right now I'm just working with what I'm able to do. And then my last pair that I made, one second, the light went off.

Bonnie (01:45:06.285)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:45:10.83)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (01:45:30.14)
Thank you.

Bonnie (01:45:30.19)
podcast middle to no light.

Woby Lang (01:45:35.072)
No! It happens sometimes.

Bonnie (01:45:41.71)
I think what's, you know, you're going to show us our last pair here, but I think what it feels so inspiring, I'm just going to call it inspiring. It's inspiring as fuck because you're doing the thing. I think of, you know, some people are like, I'm going to take apart a toaster and like figure out how it works. And I hear it so often about electrical sort of equipment, you know, to be like, how are these circuit boards? And like, let's get the screwdrivers and undo this. And.

Woby Lang (01:45:41.918)
There we go, we're back, we're back.

Bonnie (01:46:10.286)
that or like then there's I have other people in my life who are like I'm gonna make my own clothes and how do I knit right how do I knit or what does sewing look like but to look at a pair of shoes and say I'm gonna buy this pair of shoes in several sizes too big for me and then deconstruct them and then reconstruct them and the the

behind this again, Wobi, this is exactly why I wanted you to come on and like nerd out about feet with me here. It's because like, I mean, for yoga and for my hope with like wellness, and I'm like, if we're gonna be in the wellness sphere and like you and I are both in the wellness sphere and we're in it in different ways, but it's all of it. And I think my hope is here in this podcast, not just this session, but like in general, I'm like, here's all these different ways that we can pay attention that matter to our wellness.

And that we all need each other because we're going to, you're going to nerd out about shoes. And I'm like, I will buy your shoes. I will just buy them. Okay. I'm not going to, I'm not going to be the one making it, but, and deconstructing it, but that you are looking at something and deconstructing something that, that I didn't even like think about is so freaking cool because then we're all doing that in our own realms. And to just like, go like whatever it is that.

each of us are inspired by to just go do the damn thing. Like go be the weirdo that's like doing the thing that's like lights you up. That's like really interesting problem to solve.

Woby Lang (01:47:41.888)
Yeah, I mean, we have like that's that's how we figure life out, right? Like we do it. Trial and error failure. And you learn the lesson. So like, yeah, like I buy you shoes all the time and deconstruct them. I've probably deconstructed. I don't know, 20, 30 pairs of shoes. And yeah, then you deconstruct and reconstruct, you know, you break it, you use and that goes for everything like you unlearn.

been taught and then you got to relearn something new that you want to improve upon.

Bonnie (01:48:14.542)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (01:48:17.28)
in your own life. And so you got to know whether it be like unconscious bias or whatever like, you know, you got to and it all comes down to awareness, right? Like, be aware, and then and then take action and pay attention and then you know, take action to improve yourself. And so say my last pair is these are my New Year's Eve shoes. So they're like my fancy dress shoes.

Bonnie (01:48:27.662)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:48:31.15)
Pay attention.

Bonnie (01:48:38.574)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:48:46.156)
those are so cool.

Woby Lang (01:48:48.48)
And so the whole, it's a long story, but I was trying to work with knits and then I lost access to this knitting machine. So I was like, let me find materials that can like stretch and, and, and, you know, conform. and so this is like, prefer a, like laser cut, preferated leather. and then this like synthetic basketball looking out, leather.

Bonnie (01:48:59.914)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:49:11.086)
So cool. With a light, with like, is that a little lining around in the inside or just around the top too?

Woby Lang (01:49:17.022)
So yeah, so then it's a neoprene lining and it also is on the inside. I don't think you can see it here, but yeah, it goes underneath the perforated. So like when it does expand, it does show a little bit. And then like on this one, I made this one first and I was like, I could probably improve on it. And then like I added the piping because I thought it was a nice detail. And so they're different, but.

Bonnie (01:49:26.51)
Yeah. Cool.

Bonnie (01:49:32.782)
Okay.

Woby Lang (01:49:40.288)
But yeah, then so, but the thing is like there's trade -offs, right? So for a casual shoe, for a wearing shoe, yes, you want it to be flat, wide and flexible, but if you're gonna try and do...

if you're gonna road run and do a marathon, like maybe you need ultras that have some extra cushion underneath the foot, right? So that by mile 25, you're not destroyed, right? Yeah, and so, but it's still wide, right? It still allows for function. So ultra is a great.

Bonnie (01:50:10.062)
Yeah, and your ankles and all the things.

Bonnie (01:50:17.614)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:50:21.742)
I have a pair of ultras.

Woby Lang (01:50:24.352)
great overall hiking, trail running, marathon, ultra marathon, track. They're actually coming out with a track spike within next year. And then what I use for basketball now is these ZeroCore 360s. But I have to buy half a size up. So these are a 10 and a half.

Bonnie (01:50:35.278)
cool.

Woby Lang (01:50:54.336)
And I'm even contemplating now if I should get 11, but I think it's gonna be too big. And then I add in two pairs of insoles for the cushion, for the forces, because that's, it's not like, it's not necessarily natural. Basketball is not necessarily natural, right? And like we haven't, we're not ancient man anymore that like.

custom to like, you know, rocking on rocks all day long and like has built up like the tough parts of their bottoms of their feet of the skin to absorb everything. we never even got in got into like how the cells of your feet are way different than the rest of cells of your body. But that's the whole not that's gonna be a whole.

Bonnie (01:51:38.03)
there's so much more to know here. That's really what I'm leaving here being like, okay, I learned shit. I knew I was gonna learn shit and there's so much more to know. Yeah.

Woby Lang (01:51:49.056)
And for anyone else interested out there like right now there is an unintentional barefoot Nike that's out available It's the collaboration between the fashion house Jack Ma or Jack Moo and they are wide they are decently flexible and it's a great transition shoe so they have now four different colorways in the last

Bonnie (01:52:07.822)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (01:52:18.728)
less than a year that they've started this collaboration for this model shoe.

basically an Air Force One just with a different outsole. Then you have other companies that are doing pretty cool things like Bear Barracks. So if you want your Barefoot Air Force One, Bear Barracks is your option. Like it's a little built up, for the average Barefooter, you might say it's season. I mean, it's bulky, but for a transition shoe or everyday lifestyle casual shoe,

Bonnie (01:52:27.438)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (01:52:53.666)
that you want to like wear up, dress up, dress down. This is a good option. And I don't want to bore you. But my day -to -day are Wildling. You can see how minimal this is, right? This is more for the experienced. But I also then buy half a size up because I want that full splay inside the shoe. And so that I can add in...

Bonnie (01:53:09.902)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (01:53:22.848)
an extra layer of comfort with their insoles. And so, yeah, so, you know, it's a journey, it's a process for everyone. You gotta do what works for you and what's comfortable for you. You know, I'm learning to like not have to like, you wanna spin the negative into a positive, right? It's not about like yelling at people and saying, your feet, your shoes are bad and your body's fucked up and you're gonna die. No.

Bonnie (01:53:24.398)
cushion. Okay.

Bonnie (01:53:36.108)
Mm -hmm.

Woby Lang (01:53:51.328)
It's about like turning the point of view and that perspective from negative to a positive where like good feet are happy feet and happy feet is like a longer life and a more quality life and more quality connections and all these things. And it's just, but like, how do you teach that or inspire that or get people to feel that? And,

Bonnie (01:53:52.718)
Hmm.

Bonnie (01:54:05.23)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (01:54:20.698)
And then educational marketing is like number one and it all starts with awareness. Like marketing, educational content is like just as important as the product itself in my opinion. So.

Bonnie (01:54:31.822)
Yeah. Well, I am sure anybody who listens to our conversation here is going to be like, okay, there's more to know. I know that I ordered a pair of Vivo barefoot shoes and got them in and they're too big. Like it was too big. I was like, okay, I'm flopping all over the place. And so I'm going to get a, instead of a 43.

I'm going to get a 42, which is usually the size that I wear, but they're already, they already are built bigger too. so yeah.

Woby Lang (01:55:04.64)
Interesting. Yeah, that's a problem that a lot of people have with starting their Bredford journey is like, there's nowhere where we can go and try on shoes. And then and like, not everyone wants to go to the hassle, like not everyone has a printer anymore in their house. So like for the brands to say like, just print out our sizing guide sheet. It's like, that's kind of an inconvenience for most people. So there's a lot of ways to like, engage with the

Bonnie (01:55:15.086)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:55:28.108)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (01:55:34.684)
consumer to make this a better process and these are all the things that I'm thinking about as I continue and make and try to you know enter the footwear industry but yeah that sucks that you have to return them and you can't wear them yet because I know it's exciting.

Bonnie (01:55:38.892)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:55:52.27)
I mean, it's okay. I just was like, okay, but then right back, I will just order a pair and these other ones that you'd the bear bear barracks. I'm like, those are cute. I mean, I just want your Nike. So if you want.

Woby Lang (01:56:01.3)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (01:56:05.792)
What size shoe are you in US?

Bonnie (01:56:09.966)
I am like a size 11, but it depends on this shoe size. So I'm like a big foot for like lady size. And sometimes it pushes like 11 and a half depending on the shoe. So.

Woby Lang (01:56:17.984)
Yeah, because...

Cause like right now I'm only, like I've only ever made shoes for myself because up until recently I only had the last that was my size, but I recently made, so I'm making a new set of last and this is my 10. Then I made a size 12.

Bonnie (01:56:25.646)
Mm -hmm.

Bonnie (01:56:32.384)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:56:44.014)
Very cool.

Woby Lang (01:56:45.44)
massive compared to my foot. But then I also made a women's size, eight and a half.

Bonnie (01:56:47.118)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:56:51.214)
Very cool. Very cool. Yeah, I have a kiddo that has a size 14 foot as well. So we're we have the big feet over here.

Woby Lang (01:57:01.144)
And we didn't talk about how, or did I? I don't remember now, but Zero, the company that I made, or I wear for basketball, they just got Justin Holliday, a player for the Denver Nuggets to wear their basketball shoes that are going to be coming out soon in the. Yeah, so.

Bonnie (01:57:12.398)
Yeah.

Bonnie (01:57:25.614)
Cool, I actually saw this posted in your Instagram stories and you were like all about it. I was like, this is cool. Like basketball, like.

Woby Lang (01:57:30.24)
So the movement, yeah, sorry, the movement has arrived and we're here to stay and it's gonna be just a gradual takeover because more and more athletes, elite athletes are training barefoot and then now it's starting to demand, you know, wider toe box, more flexible shoes that allow them to, you know, an athlete.

Bonnie (01:57:34.924)
Yeah.

Woby Lang (01:57:54.592)
People are willing to maybe take a learning curve of, and like losing a little bit performance if it's gonna mean that they're gonna be healthier and be able to play their sport longer, right?

Bonnie (01:58:05.144)
Mm -hmm. This goes back to like nasal breathing. There's going be a learning curve to it, but then over the long run, it's going to make a big impact. Yeah.

Woby Lang (01:58:14.144)
Yeah, and so, so yeah, and then Splay, there's Splay as well. These are a good brand too, just for like everyday casual wear. There's so many, it's a wild, wild west. If anyone wants to, you know, I'm happy to, I talk to people all the time about this. So you guys can hit me up on Instagram, barefoot.

Bonnie (01:58:22.094)
Yeah. I love it. Love it. Well... Yeah.

Bonnie (01:58:35.246)
Well, and you have some links. I'm going to attach the links for some places for people to begin. So if anybody's listening to this and it was like, where do I even start? There was just like so many names of things. I'll drop those links in the show notes so people can go to them and your Instagram. So if they want to reach out to you about anything in particular, or if anybody is listening is like, I would like to give Wobie a billion dollars to do some, some cool shit and make, make shoes. Then like, please reach out to Wobie.

Woby Lang (01:59:04.32)
and change the world.

Bonnie (01:59:05.742)
Yeah, for real. Okay. thank you so much for this time. I, I love the nuance of how this like ties into yoga. I'm all, I'm so here for all these types of conversations. I feel like I am walking away a better, well, more informed human, because of you and your passion. Like your passion for it. It inspires me to keep doing my own thing. So thank you for your time.

Woby Lang (01:59:31.392)
Thank you. And, yeah, and, you know, the whole point about barefoot, I think, is like to stay connected or to have connectivity after your activity, right? So if you're practicing yoga barefoot, right? Like, why wouldn't you want to now have shoes that allow you to still feel connected to the ground, still feel connected to your body and to your mind versus shoes that disconnect you from your environment?

Bonnie (01:59:59.47)
Yeah, yeah, totally.

Woby Lang (02:00:00.192)
So, yeah. So thank you again and for inspiring me to, you know, maintain focus and keep doing what I'm doing because it's, the life of an entrepreneur is lonely and even more so when you're trying to, you know, when it's David versus Goliath here with the fuller industry. So thank you.

Bonnie (02:00:19.374)
Yeah, yeah, we're here. I'm here for it. I'm here for it. Anytime, anytime. Okay, friends, we're gonna sign off. Go get barefoot. Go get barefoot in somewhere. We don't even care where, just like go get barefoot somewhere. Connect to your feet, play footsie with somebody, wiggle your big toes, see if you're pushing off that big toe, and hopefully just start to pay attention.

Woby Lang (02:00:34.752)
Be wild.

Bonnie (02:00:48.462)
in maybe some small ways to your feet and reach out to Woby. Let him know how this episode went, if it lit you up and what shoes you're going to be getting to try out. So thank you all for tuning in. Thank you, Woby.