The Fangirl Business: A Supernatural Podcast

42.2: Deconstructing "Carry On" - The Barn and Dean's Death Scene

• The Fangirl Business • Season 1 • Episode 42

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*CONTENT WARNING: This episode discusses and analyzes "Carry On," starting with a discussion of the barn setting and including the entirety of Dean's death scene. We are including chapter markers in this episode so that you can skip moments that may be too difficult. There are no audio clips in this episode, as we feel that they could be triggering. Please take care of yourselves, friends.*

In this episode, Chrisha and Catherine discuss the barn set and its connection to Season 4's "Heaven and Hell" before approaching Dean's death scene and the dialogue between him and Sam. Pulling out key lines of dialogue, they discuss the implications of what each the brothers said. 

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Episode 42.2: Deconstructing “Carry On” - The Barn and Dean’s Death Scene


Disclaimer: The information presented in this podcast is intended to be for entertainment and educational purposes only. It should never be used in place of advice given by a mental health or medical professional, or as a substitute for mental health treatment. If you're struggling with a mental health issue, please seek professional help.


*Intro Electric Guitar Theme Music - “Play the Game” by VooDoo Blooze*


Chrisha:

Hello, and welcome to this episode of The Fangirl Business. 


Catherine:

I'm Catherine. 


Chrisha:

And I’m Chrisha. And today we are getting into part two of our deconstruction of the 20th episode of Supernatural’s 15th season, “Carry On.” And I will be very honest in that this episode is a tough one. I think it's an important one, but it's a tough one. So we are looking at Dean's death scene. In this episode, we are going to deconstruct the scene in the barn, some of the symbolism there. We are going to deconstruct the dialogue between Dean and Sam. And we're going to go kind of line by line and really dig into the layers and the issues.


Catherine:  

Yeah. And I think that part of the reason that we're doing this as an exercise is because there was so much packed into this one scene, this one dialogue. And the emotional impact was just so profound that I think that the individual elements have gotten lost a lot of the time. And the individual elements are important, because they're doing specific things. They're building a specific image of Dean and his relationship with Sam, and a lot of other things that are important are happening here. So we want to kind of break that down and tease out the details so that we can make better sense of why this wasn't just an emotional scene but this was a deeply problematic scene by looking at the language, looking at the visuals, looking at the cues that we were given as a whole within this scene.


Chrisha: 

Yep. I don't know for sure, but I think that you and I right now have our analytical hats on. So I don't necessarily foresee this being a particularly emotional episode for you and I. I understand it may be for people listening, so we want you all to take good care of yourselves. But in the headspace that we're in, we're very much in an analytical headspace. So we're really just sort of going point by point and looking at what makes sense and what doesn't logically and from a storytelling perspective. We understand that, regardless of where we may be, this is heavy stuff, and it's painful. We understand that the episode itself, and especially this part of it, is pretty triggering for a lot of folks. And so we will continue to not add any audio into the podcast. So you don't need to worry about that. It does mean that you just get to listen to that much more of us. And, Catherine, I think you said you're gonna continue to put in timestamps so that people can jump ahead if they need to. Yeah?


Catherine:  

Yeah. Yep. There's a way to put in chapter markers that will show up with different headings, and you can kind of skip through based on those. So I'll continue to do that for this episode.


Chrisha:  

Okay. So yeah, feel free to take breaks, to skip this one all together. Please take care of yourselves. Please only do what's going to be helpful. I think our goal with this episode is to try to dig into why there's a lot that doesn't make sense. That's what we did in our last episode for the beginning of Episode 20, and that's what we're going to continue to do. So this isn't about emotional processing. This is about deconstructing the story and the story elements to figure out what didn't work for us.


Catherine:  

Well, and why it doesn't fit canonically― 


Chrisha:

Right.


Catherine:

―with the story that we've gotten so far. And for me, this is helping me to put aside this episode mentally because it doesn't fit with the established canon on multiple levels. It doesn't fit with the story trajectory. There are multiple elements that are calling into question the reality of what is happening as well as just not fitting... not working within a way that makes sense with what we know these characters and the world that they inhabit. So because of all of these things, I feel comfortable putting this episode aside as I move forward. And so for me, that's part of the importance of this work, and I think I'm already feeling better! *laughs* Like, honestly. Yeah, after our first episode and everything that we went through, I’m like, there really is a lot!


Chrisha:  

There is. And I have said, and will continue to say, that the only way out is through for me. This episode had so much power for me. It hurt so much. And it was just... it stole so much joy. And it was just so painful. And really sitting down, finally, after a couple of months to really dig through, it has been liberating in a strange way, because it's really helped give evidence to the feelings. It's matched up my logical brain with my emotional brain, which is always soothing. So.


Catherine:  

Yes! What you just said? Like… chef’s kiss. Yeah, it's matching up the logic with the emotion and that is always a very comfortable feeling when you can bring those different parts of ourselves into unity and come to the same conclusion.


Chrisha:  

Yes, yeah.


Catherine:  

Okay. With that being said...


Chrisha:  

Yeah, so we are going to go back to the barn. So you know, one interesting thing that we didn't get into in the last episode is the fact that the barn that they're in looks exactly like the barn from Season Four―with Anna and Ruby and Uriel and Cas and Alastair. Like, everybody was there. That's... and I bring that up, because as we're going through the emotions of this episode, that was a strong visual cue. Like, we talked about that in our emotional reaction episode, in that this whole time we've been looking for Cas, right? This whole time, we're like, “Okay, but why haven't you gone to get Cas yet?”


Catherine:

Yeah.


Chrisha:

“What is happening? Where is he? He has to be here. It's the finale, of course he's gonna be here.” And so we walk into this barn. You know, we talked about how... that Sam was in the kitchen making breakfast, and that invoked Eileen. And so it was so loud that she wasn't there. And Miracle is in bed with Dean and it invokes Cas, and that Cas isn't there. And then they're sitting in the library, and it's the same visual as when they were with Cas and Eileen in that other future and so it invokes that they're not there. And then they walk into this barn. 


Catherine:

Yeah.


Chrisha:

It looks exactly like this barn where all of these celestial beings were… the angels and the demons. And so I'm like, “Yes, here we go! Here we go.”


Catherine:

Yep.


Chrisha:

And then it was vampires in masks. 


Catherine:

Yep. 


Chrisha:

Because vampires wear masks now. So, um … 


Catherine:  

Especially when they're fighting. 


Chrisha: 

Because, why― 


Catherine:

Why would they ever want to use their fangs?


Chrisha: 

I mean … *takes deep breath* Oh, we're hitting the sarcasm early this episode. 


Catherine:  

*laughs* I’m so sorry.


Chrisha: 

I started it! *laughs*


Catherine:  

*laughs* I followed very enthusiastically!


Chrisha: 

*laughing* We’re gonna do some more deep breathing! *deep breaths* Okay, here we go. So― 


Catherine:  

*laughs*


Chrisha: 

Oh, pain laughter. Pain laughter. *laughs*


Catherine:  

Okay. 


Chrisha: 

Okay. 


Catherine: 

I also wanted to bring up the fact that this was the barn outside of which Dean has sex with an angel. 


Chrisha:

It is indeed.


Catherine:

In the Impala. So, because of these associations with the barn, not just with one angelic character, but with like, multiple angelic characters. Because of this association with the barn, and sex with an angel in the Impala, I was like, “Oh, this is going to be the scene where Cas comes back from the Empty and saves Dean and brings the horde of angels with him. This is the thing that I've been hoping for.”


Chrisha:

Yeah.


Catherine:

And, uh, that's not what happened. And at first, that hurt me? But now I'm wondering if this is another one of those moments... because we talked in the last episode about how there's sort of one thing going on with the surface level of the story that we're being told, and then there are all of these visual cues that are undermining that story. 


Chrisha:

Yeah. Mmhm.


Catherine:

And so, to me, I'm wondering if this is another moment of the surface story telling us one thing, and the visual cues undermining that narrative and telling us that again, there's something… something is wrong here. This isn't the way that it's meant to go, or the story isn't matching what it feels like it should be. And the visuals are leading us in a very different direction than the surface narrative. 


Chrisha:

Yeah, I’d agree with that. 


Catherine:

And so they're, they're in conflict with each other, I think in a way that is really doing something interesting, because that barn is so iconic. 


Chrisha:

Yeah. 


Catherine:

It's such an iconic moment. Like I don't... there are a lot of sets that I don't remember. But this is one of the ones that I do, because it was such a big reveal moment, for so many of the characters and what they stood for and what they didn't stand for. And the space was very striking. And people have actually taken the two scenes and kind of looked at them side by side and confirmed, yes, it is the same barn with a few minor changes. So again, there's this ongoing theme with the surface telling us one story, and then the visual cues undermining it and telling us something else. So I think it's interesting that that goes into this barn scene in this way.


Chrisha:  

Yeah. Well, I think one thing that we want to be really clear on is that we have absolutely no idea what the intention is from any of the creators of this. We're just sort of guessing. And so as we go through this and we analyze it, it's really just, we're talking about what the story says to us, you know, what the visuals, what the narrative… what all of those things say to us. What message we are taking so that we can decide what fits the narrative for us, versus what contradicts what we know to be true.


Catherine:  

Right. I think we talked about this in the last episode at the beginning of the episode... we don't know what happened. There's a sense that something happened. But there has been no information to tell us really what happened or why or when or how. So we can't make statements like so-and-so did this, or so-and-so wrote this to do this, like, because we just... we don't know. There's not enough information. There's no information. So all we can do is go by what was presented to us and the canon that came before it. And look at those two things side by side and say: Does this fit with canon ? Does this fit with the literary trajectory of the season? Does this fit with characterization? Does this fit with the themes of the season? And over and over again, in this episode, the answer is no. 


Chrisha:

Right.


Catherine:

This doesn't fit with canon. This doesn't fit with characterization. This doesn't fit with the trajectory of the narrative. This doesn't fit with the themes that were being explored. And so when we say things like, this doesn't fit, we're intentionally trying to be very careful to not ascribe intention to it. 


Chrisha:

Yeah.


Catherine:

Because we don't know intention. All we know is the story that was given to us and the canon that came before it. So.


Chrisha:  

Right. Thank you. Yeah, and so in that same thread, I mean, even just the word barn....


Catherine:  

OOOAAAAAAH, yeah.... *makes pained noise*


Chrisha:  

It used to... it used to mean something else. And it still does. You know, for years and years, when we talked about “the barn”― 


Catherine:

The barn scene…


Chrisha:

―it was Cas’ introduction to the show, which is, in my mind, the most iconic of entrances of any character probably ever on television. And so I get that filming was complicated and such under the circumstances, but to invoke a barn that had Cas in it, that had sexual partners of both Sam and Dean in it, in an episode where the lack of romantic partners is so loud… also “barn”, that is so closely associated with Cas just in general. There's a reason why, I think for me, I was already at a heightened emotional state through all of this, even if I couldn't figure out why. So.


Catherine:  

Yeah, visuals are important, man. They really are. 


Chrisha:  

Well, and when the visuals tell you something different than the words are saying, it is such a profoundly difficult experience. And that's what this whole episode was.


Catherine:  

It's interesting, just random aside, this brings back a memory from my childhood, where I was watching a television show. And my dad was listening, and he happened to stop in and watch it for a few minutes. And the audio was talking about all these really positive things like sharing and being a good friend. But the visuals were doing the opposite of all of that. And so it was this dissonance. And I was deeply confused and upset by the inconsistencies between what was being said and what was being shown as a child. And if my dad hadn't stopped into watch when he did, you know... it all sounded good. So it's really interesting how there's a deep power in imagery and the story that it tells versus the things that you hear. So it's just that, just as an aside, that just brought back that memory really viscerally. So yeah, yeah.


Chrisha:  

Well, we talked in our last episode quite a bit about vampires and their literary history and how they are often used as queer coding. And so now we're in this fight with Sam and Dean and these vampires. One thing that really struck me the second time I watched it is, when Sam and Dean had captured the one vampire and were working to get him to talk, Dean told him that if he was honest, if he was truthful, then they would kill him quick and clean. But if he was silent, or if he refused to be truthful, then he was going to die a long, slow death. And as we transition now into talking about Dean's death, I feel like that was another theme of silencing and foreshadowing that... because literally, in the next scene, Dean dies a long, slow death. You know? Which would indicate to me, perhaps, that he wasn't honest. That he didn't speak up. He didn't speak his truth, which we already believe is true. And... that sucks, and I hate it a lot. I don't know how to pretty that up.


Catherine:  

Well, it's just― I think what's interesting is, so much of the story… we can talk about it in terms of Sam and Dean do this and it's out of character. And this happens, and it doesn't fit canon. But when we start talking about Dean, we talk about how things were done TO him. And it becomes much more personal, just in the language. Like, we're protective of him in the language that we use to speak about what's going on. And so it's upsetting, first of all, on the surface level, that the death that Dean dies is a very slow and painful death. 


Chrisha:

Yeah.


Catherine:

That is just... that's upsetting. It would be uncomfortable to watch, no matter who it was. If it was just a rando that this happened to, it would be uncomfortable and difficult to watch. But this is a beloved character that this is happening to. The implications on top of that, that he's dying this slow death that's associated with vampires being impaled, being staked, that is part of the wider vampire lore outside of Supernatural. The associations with queerness that vampires have. And then you pair that with the fact that in the previous scene ― *cat noises in background* my cats are being really vocal ― the vampire... the queer coded character is threatened with a really long slow death if he refuses to be honest and is silent. And then we have our queer coded character killed in a queer coded kind of way. That is painful. That is difficult. And again, we tie that back to the silencing. You know, it's interesting because I think they really made the mom into the vulnerable character here. Her husband is taken out and cannot “protect” her. And she is trying to get between the vampires and her children. And she's, you know, she's sacrificing herself for her children. But she's made into this very vulnerable character who kind of like... the last thing you hear from her is this scream. And I think that there is a similar vulnerability in Dean, when we consider how close his character was to happiness, how close his character was to freedom, how close his character was to claiming his authentic self. So to see this further parallel with vulnerable characters being silenced and not being able to speak important things... not being able to share important information because of fill-in-the-blank… we don't know why. But there is silencing happening. And in both cases, it just, there's an inherent lack of sense to do these kinds of silencing. Why couldn't Dean come out as bi? Why couldn't he speak his truth when his whole character arc of Season 15 was building towards that? 


Chrisha:

Right.


Catherine:

Just like, why would vampires cut out a woman's tongue? It doesn't make any sense. It also doesn't make any sense that Dean could not speak the truth about this deep part of who he is, which is his bisexuality.


Chrisha:

Yeah. 


Catherine:

So I think all of these things kind of tie together. And there are a lot of complex layers going on.


Chrisha:  

Yeah, and even if we look at it at just surface level, or just under surface level, maybe? At this point in the episode, Dean had been pied in the face, which is something that is often done to silence people. Politically, you know, people will get pies thrown at them to shut them up or humiliate them.


Catherine:  

Yeah, there's an element of humiliation in it.


Chrisha:  

And it also originated in silent films, which I think is fascinating.


Catherine:  

Yep. And there was a really interesting tie in about how they found this silent movie called Vampyre. And, it was like, very dreamlike. And there was this blending of reality and fantasy and what's real and what's not. And it was also critically dumped upon. And so they were... they kind of went through this whole thing about this movie. And then we're like, it's really interesting that, you know, silent film, silent vampires, mime-pires, vampires that don't speak, the silencing of the women, the silencing of Dean, the queer coding that's going on. So they were drawing all of these really interesting parallels. And through that whole theme was silence. And so as you say, the fact that pieing in the face was like something that happened a lot in silent films. Really, again, really interesting layers here, right?


Chrisha: 

Yeah. And I mean, also, Dean was stabbed in the back. I mean, even if we just take it at it's just most base level. He was stabbed in the back, which is absolutely, you know, that's betrayal. That's what we say, when we're talking about someone being portrayed is that they've been stabbed in the back, and he literally was. So it's been really hard to see his death as anything but a betrayal and a silencing. Not only on an emotional level, as it was happening, but logically, also, when we start putting together analytically the things that are strange or don't make sense, as you just did, the common thread that we keep coming back to is betrayal and silence. Obviously, the ironic part is that Dean then spends the next seven minutes talking. Which is, again, so confusing. 


Catherine:

Yeah. 


Chrisha:

And I think it's important to point out: Dean's death scene is seven minutes and 36 seconds, which is 18% of the episode. So, it's a … That is statistically significant. 


Catherine:

Yeah.


Chrisha:

It's a lot of time that we spend in this emotional space.


Catherine:  

So we are going to, at this point, talk about what Dean and Sam say to each other in that seven minute and 36 second death scene. Again, there will be no audio. But we will be describing things and pulling out phrasing and looking at it to kind of say why this doesn't work for us. So if you need to skip ahead, please do. I will mark this section very clearly on the audio. But yeah, this is what we're transitioning into. Just a heads up.


Chrisha: 

Yeah. You know, one thing that I didn't notice the first time I watched is that there is a point after Dean tells Sam that there's something in his back, and Sam checks it, that Dean screams angrily. Like he is MAD at this situation. And I missed it the first time―I think because I was in shock. And I can't decide if it was comforting to see? Or if it made it more painful. I think I'll probably just go back and forth on that. But it showed me that Dean didn't just immediately accept this fate for himself, as he said he did. He was mad. He didn't want to die today. But he saw that Sam was starting to panic or was upset or whatever, which is a completely rational and reasonable response to the situation. But Dean reverts to old habits and immediately shuts his own emotional stuff off and goes into “calm and collected” to help Sam.


Catherine:  

Yeah, he goes into Big Brother mode. He goes into protective mode, which is deeply ironic. 


Chrisha:

Yeah. 


Catherine:

But that's absolutely what happens. And there are parts of this that feel really authentic. And there are parts of this that completely just don't fit with the Dean that we've come to know over the course of Season 15. And so I think part of the difficulty for me was I was getting whiplash between these moments. 


Chrisha:

*emphatically* Yes, yes. 


Catherine:

Where it was like, “Oh, this! Yes.” And then like, “What?!?!?”


Chrisha: 

Right. 


Catherine:

“No!” *makes pained noise*


Chrisha:

Well, because being protective of Sam should mean fighting for himself, fighting for his life. Trying. Letting Sam go get the first aid kit, or call for help. But then again, there's no reason why Sam couldn't have stayed with him and called for help because he has a cell phone. So… 


Catherine:  

In his hand, that he puts away. And it just― That, like, that is so out of character with Sam. I know that this is his brother; I know that this is his worst fear. But he's watched his brother die multiple times. And it's always been, “We can fix this.” So I can see him staying with Dean and getting on the phone, calling 911, and saying, “I'm here with you. Operator, we've got a penetrating wound injury. I can't move him. We need help at this location, please come quickly.”


Chrisha: 

Right. Right. Yeah, like, he knows how to do that. He's a leader. 


Catherine:

He is!


Chrisha:

He knows how to handle lots of very stressful things all at the same time and to go into problem solving mode. That's the Sam story that we've been told over season … Gosh, lots of them lately, but definitely Season 13, 14, 15. So.


Catherine:

Yes.


Chrisha:

That he would just stand there. 


Catherine:

Even if he couldn't have saved him, he would have made the attempt. 


Chrisha:

Yeah. 


Catherine:

That is the Sam that we know. He … he multitasks. He thinks his way through solutions. He wouldn't stand there for seven minutes while his brother dies and not try to do anything.


Chrisha: 

He doesn't give up. I mean, that's the whole theme of the show, is they don't give up. So.


Catherine:  

So the Sam characterization there just doesn't make sense to me. The fact that he's holding his cell phone and puts it in his pocket and never dials 911 just doesn't make any kind of sense to me. And I just want to say that―to be clear, here―that neither of us is disparaging any of the acting in this scene. 


Chrisha:

God no. 


Catherine:

Because the acting was incredible.


Chrisha:

So good.


Catherine:

It's the only thing that held this scene together, really, was the incredible performance from Jared and Jensen. 


Chrisha:

Like I forgot to be mad for a second as I was rewatching. Like it got me for a second, even with all of my armor on―all of my emotional armor― 


Catherine:

Same!


Chrisha: 

―and Jensen still got me, and I was mad. *laughs* Like, can you just let me analyze this?


Catherine:  

And Jared, too, like after Dean is gone, and he has that emotional release? Like, I've been there, I've done that, I've been that messy, and it was just like, “Oof, yeah. Okay.” So the acting was so good. So I just want to be clear about that. Because what we're looking at is the lines and the wording and the way that the dialogue was structured. It's not the delivery; it's the structure.


Chrisha: 

Yeah. Exactly.


Catherine:  

So you know, there are these moments of real vulnerability. I understand him wanting Sam to stay with him. He says, you know, “Can you stay with me, please?” 


Chrisha: 

And I love that he asked for that. 


Catherine:

Yeah. 


Chrisha:

That was one of those things that did feel like―  


Catherine:

Authentic Dean.


Chrisha:

―current Dean.


Catherine:  

‘Cause it was vulnerable. 


Chrisha:

Yeah. 


Catherine:

It was vulnerable, and Dean now can be vulnerable. That's part of the healing process that he's gone through to get to a point where he doesn't snark it off. Like, he doesn't, you know, try to be tough. He lets his vulnerability show and asks for help. But then it's juxtaposed against―a couple of lines later, he says, “You knew it was always going to end like this for me. It was supposed to end like this. Right?”


Chrisha: 

*lets out a long breath* That was significant emotional whiplash for me. 


Catherine:

Yep. 


Chrisha:

Because I was immediately furious. 


Catherine:

Yep.


Chrisha:

Ummm … Mmhm.


Catherine:  

I mean, we've seen all of the things that people have brought up on Twitter that directly contradict this statement.


Chrisha: 

Right.


Catherine:

There's a scene from a couple of seasons ago where Dean is in a church and he's in a confessional booth. And he's like, “You know, I, I used to think that it was going to be this way, you know? I was going to go out on the job. But now there are things that I want to experience, you know, people that I've never experienced before in the way that I want to.” So he's given voice to the fact that he wants more. He talks in another episode about how he wants to be toes in the sand, with little fruity umbrella drinks― 


Chrisha:

Yeah.


Catherine:

―and retiring. And so the, “Always going to end like this for me―you knew it was always going to end like this for me,” ―  


Chrisha:

And, “It's supposed to end like this for me.” 


Catherine:

*agreeing* And, “It's supposed to end like that.”


Chrisha: 

That’s―that's where my head exploded. Because― 


Catherine:

Yeah!


Chrisha:

―I could see him saying things like this to try to comfort Sam, and to try to comfort himself, but … it's wrong. And he knows it's wrong. 


Catherine:

Mmhm.


Chrisha:

You know, I mean, Dean, he lies to protect the ones that he loves. That's a standard Dean thing. 

Catherine:

Yep. 


Chrisha:

I mean, Sam denied that and was just like, “No, no, no, stop. Just stop.” But … I don't know. I just … Hearing those words from Dean after this story arc. Just, was so invalidating. *makes pained noise*


Catherine:  

“It was supposed to end like this.” And Sam says, “No, stop, just stop.” And Dean says, “It's okay. It's good. It's good.” 


Chrisha:

*negation* Mm-mm. 


Catherine:

That is just like … that? It's so far from “good.”


Chrisha:

Right. 


Catherine:

And like, and he didn't say it like it's, “It's all good.” He said it like, “It's good.” And I was like, “No.”


Chrisha:
Right.


Catherine:

No-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no-no. No-no. But as you say, and this is part of that emotional whiplash for me, Dean puts on a front for his little brother. And I was going back, because later in the episode, where they get that phone call from Austin, Texas―and we'll go on to that later―but, the person who's calling is looking for Agent Bon Jovi. And I was like, “Why that? Why that one out of all the ones?” Because we know that Dean was sort of like, “Eh, you know, Bon Jovi is okay, sometimes.” So I went back and looked to see the last time that Bon Jovi was referenced―or the big moment of reference―and that was when they sing “Dead or Alive” in the car, and it's Season Three. It’s the end of season three. Dean's run out of time: He's having the hallucinations that come when your time for your deal is running out. He knows that the hellhounds are coming for him. And he goes into this whole, like, you know, “I don't want this to be awkward. Let's just do this thing. And here, we're going to turn on the radio and I'm going to sing and I'm going to be full of bravado. And he starts off and he's singing at the top of his lungs, and he looks carefree. And Sam gets drawn into it against his will―’cause he's really worried about Dean. 


Chrisha:

Mmhm.


Catherine:

But he gets drawn into the moment, and he starts singing along. And once he fully lets go and starts singing, Dean stops. His face falls as soon as he realizes that Sam isn't watching him. He allows himself to show what he's really feeling, which is absolute terror. 


Chrisha:

Yeah. 


Catherine: 

And so he was projecting one thing for Sam. But what was underneath the surface was in direct contradiction with what he was showing us on this one level. And so I think that that is a part of what's happening in this moment. He's projecting something that everybody thought was going to happen to him, ‘cause that's how hunters die. 


Chrisha:

Right.


Catherine:

And so that's just something that he should accept. But he―he's not quite committed to it. He makes it a question. “It was always supposed to end like this, right?” There's a question at the end of that. And so there's that little note of uncertainty. And then he says, “It's okay, it's good. It's good.” But it's like he has to convince himself, even as he's putting on this front for Sam, that it's fine. When really, he's terrified. He's terrified.


Chrisha:  

And he's angry.


Catherine:  

And he's angry. Yes. So again, it's interesting that we've been talking about how there's this surface layer to this narrative And then there are these cues that are underpinning [meant to say “undermining”] that. And I think that's exactly what's happening in this moment. There's what Dean is saying on the surface. And then there are these cues that are showing us that what he's saying is not what we should take at face value.


Chrisha:

Mmhm. Well, it's Dean Winchester, you know? Like, that's what he does. But you know, the thing that I thought was interesting is that then Sam is like, “No, no, no, I'll find a way. I'll bring you back.” And Dean is the one that says, “No, because that always ends bad.” Which is not true. 


Catherine:

YES!


Chrisha:

It doesn't always end bad.


Catherine:  

It didn't end badly with Eileen.


Chrisha: 

Yeah. That we're aware of. Not that we would know, because she's not referenced, but―


Catherine:  

But, like, there was the fear that it was going to end badly because of Chuck. But then she was no longer useful to Chuck, and they had moved back into a place where they were dating. They were going on dates, he was coming home all ruffled and mussed, and it was adorable! So as far as we could see, he cared deeply about Eileen. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been so distressed when people started disappearing. 


Chrisha:

Right. 


Catherine:

So what Dean said isn't true.


Chrisha:

Yeah. Well, it's old. That was a storyline from years ago. The, “They keep doing stupid stuff to bring each other back.” So it's not that it's not a theme of Supernatural. It's just that it doesn't quite fit at this point. You know, at this point in the narrative that's not necessarily true. And so, if it was set five years ago, when they were so toxically codependent, this part of this speech would have resonated quite a bit more. Because at that point, it got bad. You know? With the two of them risking the world constantly just to keep saving each other. It was not healthy. 


Catherine:

No.


Chrisha:

And at that point, I would have seen it as Dean is being the adult and breaking that cycle of trauma and codependence. And so it's like, on the one hand― *sighs* It’s so confusing. So, given what we've seen in this episode, it seems like somewhere in there that we didn't get to see, Dean came to a place of acceptance of Cas' death. 


Catherine:

Yep.


Chrisha:

And not bringing him back?


Catherine:

Which makes no sense.


Chrisha:

As some sort of breaking of a cycle? Except that we didn't get to see that; we don't have any understanding of it. And so it doesn't make sense.


Catherine:  

Well, and I mean, it's not that it is an unseen, it's that it happens with Jack. We see it happen and it makes no sense. There's no reason why he couldn't have asked Jack to bring back Cas. There is no reason why he should have had to ask Jack to bring back Cas. Jack would have just brought Cas back. 


Chrisha:

Right. 


Catherine:

So there's … like, we've seen the thing that makes no sense. And then it's just like, from there on out he doesn't care anymore. Which, again: out of character; doesn't make sense.


Chrisha:

Yeah. Something got missed in the narrative thread there. Something really important. If they wanted us to believe that this is an authentic Dean just saying like, “Oh, well, Cas loves me, but he's gone. Bummer.” Which is what it ended up looking like, honestly. And also that Dean is just accepting his own death, despite his own feelings, despite wanting to live, despite having things that he wants to do.


Catherine:  

Despite him getting to a place where he wants to define himself. “That's not who I am.” He tells God, “That's not who I am. You think that I'm all of these things? No, that's not who I am.” But here, *taps table for emphasis* he's acquiescing to this notion of who he should be, of how it should end. And that's directly contradictory with what he tells Chuck before they walk away.


Chrisha: 

Well, and it's contradictory to free will, which is what this entire show is about. “It was always supposed to end this way?” 


Catherine:

*emphatically* YES.


Chrisha:

That's literally 15 years of what they've been fighting against―what Dean, specifically, has been fighting against.


Catherine:

Fighting against destiny. 


Chrisha:

I just … *inhales deeply* I’m gonna breathe. *exhales slowly*


Catherine:  

And so the message that this sends―and this is huge, Chrisha. Thank you for bringing this up―is that it is all just fate. And it is all just destiny. And that's not what the show has ever been about. Ever. 


Chrisha:
Mmhm.


Catherine:

And they're in a place now where there is no destiny, there is no fate, because God is not shaping the narrative anymore. So to accept something as destiny and fate, in the midst of this free will space that's unlike anything that they've had before? Again, it just … The structure of this breaks down.


Chrisha: 

Yeah. Yes, it does.


Catherine:  

And it's deeply, deeply, deeply out of character. For Dean to acquiesce to the concept of fate, the concept of destiny. Anywhere. But especially about a death, that is just the expected death. 


Chrisha:

Mmhm.

Catherine:

So shall we move on to the next part of it? 


Chrisha:

Yeah.


Catherine:

Where he talks about Sam.


Chrisha: 

Mmhm. So Dean transitions into building up Sam, which is very Dean. The idea that he would want to say wonderful things to Sam I think is very authentic and in character. I think the fact that he can so easily talk about feelings at this point? I don’t know. Kind of reminded me of Cas. Cas opened up and it was so authentic. Said these big emotional things so easily. And so it was like Dean had kind of learned from that, perhaps, or had seen that example. And wanted to do that too. Except that some of the things that he said didn't make a ton of sense to me. And so I feel like that they wouldn't have made a ton of sense to Sam. And if you're going to build somebody you love up right before you die, I would think being as authentic as possible would be important. 


Catherine:

Yup. 


Chrisha:

So he said, “I've always looked up to you,” which I think is strange coming from someone who has raised someone. 


Catherine:

Yeah. 


Chrisha:

I love my kids. I have various aged ones. There are things about each of them that I love and adore. But I'm the adult in those situations, even with the adult kids, you know?


Catherine:

Yeah. Yup. 


Chrisha:

So the idea of saying that I always looked up to them I just think is kind of an odd way to phrase that?


Catherine:  

It would have made sense if he said, “I always looked out for you.” 


Chrisha:

Yeah. 


Catherine:

But, “I always looked up to you?”


Chrisha:  

Well, and it's also just not genuine, because―and Sam fans, I love you guys. Please don't come for me―Sam had a tough start to this show. The first five years, that poor kid made a lot of bad decisions.


Catherine:  

He did. And it was always like you wanted Sam to be right. But it was always Dean who actually was. *laughs*


Chrisha:

Yeah. 


Catherine:

And I always, like, my heart was always with Sam. I was like, “Oh, Sam, I feel this. I want you to be right.” And then it would be Dean with his jaded, cynical, pessimistic outlook, who would be like, “Mmm, yep, he [Dean] got it right again.”


Chrisha: 

Yeah. Yeah. So I―yeah, that part of it was just very, “Hmmm, did you, though?” *laughs*


Catherine:  

*laughs* Yeah. ‘Cause he was literally being like, “No, Sam. This is the reality. We’ve got to face it.”


Chrisha: 

Mmhm. Yeah. And then he says, “Man, when we were kids, you were so damn smart. You never took any dad's crap. I never knew how you did that.” That line made me want to jump in the TV and just sit Dean down and have a talk. Because if he genuinely, at this point, doesn't understand that the reason that Sam was able to stand up to John is because he had Dean there as a safety net? Like, if he really doesn't get that by this point? 


Catherine:

Yeah.


Chrisha:

It makes my heart hurt.


Catherine:  

Well, and I think this is part of the rejection. Because he does know these things now. He's said to Sam, “I took Dad's crap because if I didn't he would send me away, and I wouldn't be there to protect you.” They literally had that conversation. And so he knows the reason that Sam got away with what he got away with was because Dean was acting as interference between Sam and John his whole life. He was actively doing that. He knows this.


Chrisha: 

Yeah; Sam had protection. Dean had no protection; he had no safety net.


Catherine:  

No; that's why he ended up at Sonny's place. That's why he left for periods of time, because he'd be sent away if he disagreed with John. And Sam got away with more because Sam was the favored child. It's just the way it was.


Chrisha:

Mmhm.


Catherine:

So I think for me, part of the issue that I have here is that Dean has had some moments over the past few years in relation to his understanding of self and his relationship with John. And one of those big moments was in “Lebanon,” where he looked at Sam and he said, “I'm good with who I am.” And another one was the moment with Chuck: “That's not who I am.” And so he was starting to reject those things that he told himself about himself for so long. And I think part of my issue with this part of it is so much of what he's saying is praising Sam. And there's that unspoken echo of, “You were this―but I wasn't,” you know? So, “You were so damn smart.” Well, what did he think of himself as? Daddy's blunt little instrument, right? And this was just addressed. It was addressed by Cas.He took it on; he was rejecting those old notions of himself. So to me, this is a speech that is pulling back from where he was―taking a step back from that progress. And it's tragic that he's doing that as he's dying. 


Chrisha:

Yeah.


Catherine:

“You're stronger than I am. You're smarter than I am. You never took any of Dad's crap, but I did.” So all of these things are negative things that he's saying about himself. He's praising up Sam at his own expense. 


Chrisha:

Yeah. He literally says, “You're stronger than me; you always have been.” So that's like a blanket, “You have always been stronger than me,” which is so obviously untrue. They work as a team because they go back and forth. 


Catherine:

Right! They each have their moments of one can be stronger and and then the other can be stronger. And that's, like, the natural ebb and flow of any relationship between siblings, between friends, between partners. On all of these different levels there's give and take. And so the absolutist language that's happening here is just deeply uncharitable towards himself. It's deeply self-deprecating. It's deeply self-flagellating. And again, this doesn't fit with the corner that Dean had turned. This doesn't fit with the Dean who rejected this deeply negative version of himself that he had accepted for so long. And that he just rejected in the previous episode and was sort of a culmination of this journey that he's been on: of esteeming who he is. 


Chrisha:

Mmhm.


Catherine:

And so for his dying speech to be reiterating these very old senses of self―building his brother up at the expense of himself―it doesn't mesh with the Dean that we have seen come into his own.


Chrisha:  

It's tragic. 


Catherine:

Yeah. 


Chrisha:

So we're watching him die, which is excruciatingly painful. And then to hear him disparaging himself while he's dying―after we've spent 19 episodes watching him come into his own and finally feel comfortable with himself and feel good about himself―feels cruel. Especially to people that see themselves in him. 


Catherine:

Yeah. 


Chrisha:

And then, talking about the whiplash. So, you know, we have these few lines where he's sort of disparaging himself to build Sam up. And then it goes into, “Hey, did I ever tell you that night that I came for you when you were at school? When Dad hadn't come back from his hunting trip?” “The Woman in White?” “That's right. I must have stood outside your door for hours, because I didn't know what you would say. I thought you'd tell me to get lost or get dead. And I didn't know what I would have done if I didn't have you. ‘Cause I was so scared. I was scared.” And that feels so authentic. 


Catherine:

Yeah. Yup.


Chrisha:

So real. And he's just saying he was scared. Like just putting it out there, which is so beautiful. I mean, sad. But absolutely I could see baby Dean standing outside of baby Sam's dorm, terrified to knock on the door. But then having that bravado, having that cocky confidence. 


Catherine:

“Easy, Tiger.”


Chrisha:

Yeah. Totally makes sense to me, for sure. 


Catherine:

Yep. 


Chrisha:

So the emotional whiplash of that was a lot. 


Catherine:

Absolutely. 


Chrisha:

But then he goes into, “Cause when it all came down to it, it was always you and me. And it's always been you and me.” *sighs*


Catherine:  

Again, erasure of found family. 


Chrisha: 

That’s a loaded sentence. That sentence I have wrestled with, because I get that it was the two of them: they grew up together; they hunted together. Like I get it. I think it's honestly fandom culture more than anything that makes me just really get my hackles up at that sentence. 

Catherine:

Yeah. 


Chrisha:

But he's dying. It would be cool if he could reference the life that they built together. I mean, you were talking about “Lebanon” and that episode. And the other thing that he says in that episode is, “I have a family.” And that's such a profound and important line. And it's all just gone. Disappeared. Nowhere to be found in this episode. 


Catherine:

Yeah. 


Chrisha:

So, I don’t know. 


Catherine:  

Yeah. And it's just … it's very lonely. And it's very, very sad, because there's so much more. There's so much more than just Sam and Dean. And I think this underscores what's happening in the rest of the episode and that deep, deep dissonance. 


Chrisha:

Mmhm.


Catherine:

Erasure. 


Chrisha:

Yeah. 


Catherine:

Silencing. Because it was more. You know, it started out with Sam and Dean. And that's good. And that's fine. And that's, that's right, because they were all that they had. And that was something that was―oooh―that was something that was instilled to them by John. 


Chrisha:

Yeah. That’s true. 


Catherine:

John was a lone wolf. And, you know, that's brought up really early on in the series when they meet Gordon, because Gordon talks about how other hunters know each other and talk to each other. And they're like, “What?” *laughs* Because they've never experienced that. You know, the closest that they got to, I guess was, was Bobby and pastor Jim, but they were caretakers. Like, they were dropped off to them as babysitters. They weren't people that John tended to hunt with. So there wasn't that sense of community. And then there was when they met Jo and Ellen. And again, they were introduced to this wider hunter culture. They were very shocked that it existed. So John really kept them isolated and really dependent on each other. 


Chrisha:

Yeah. 


Catherine:

And he was the one that instilled that, “There's only you and me,” kind of mentality. And it was Bobby that introduced the idea of, “There's more.” It was through him that we got to meet Jody. And their world just kept expanding. They kept finding more of these people who, you know, sometimes happily, and sometimes not, came along for the ride. And so they slowly outgrew this version of who they were that was shaped by John so heavily. And so it's really interesting to me, again, like, John keeps popping up in this finale. And for them to come back to this place of, “It was always you and me: you and me against the world,” in the finale.


Chrisha:  

Mmhm. Yeah, that wasn't healthy. That wasn't a healthy thing.


Catherine:  

No, that wasn't. It wasn't a healthy thing. Nothing associated with John is healthy. But for them to come back to that thing, to be reduced in that way, to be isolated in the way that their dad used to isolate them at the end of the show is just very sad and troubling to me.


Chrisha: 

Yeah, and I think that going into the next piece: So, as I said, the “It's always been you and me,” line is difficult for me because of fandom culture. Because of the infighting that centers around the relationship with the brothers versus found family. And we've talked at length about how important found family is for so many people. And coming out of that place of isolation, or negative things that we're taught as kids, and then becoming our own people with our own found family and how important that is. And I think that that's why so many of us related to Sam and Dean in that way, you know, that becoming your individual self away from your parents and what that looks like and how important and liberating that is. But then we get farther into the speech here, you know, and they reference back to the pilot. Sam says, “Don't leave me. I can't do this alone.” And Dean says, “Yes, you can.” And Sam says, “Well, I don't want to.” And then Dean says, “I'm not leaving you. I'm going to be right here every day: every day you're out there and you're living and you're fighting, because you always keep fighting.” And that line firmly invokes fandom. 


Catherine:

Yeah. 


Chrisha:

That is a meta line. That is a nod to the fandom, which makes it troubling on several levels, then, because Dean is telling Sam to keep fighting while he is actively dying, and not asking for help, and is trying to just accept his fate, which goes against all of the themes of the show. They're very isolated. It's only about the brothers. Now they're making it about fandom. That was hurtful.


Catherine:  

Yeah, it's hard ‘cause the emotions creep back in, right? I think for me, you know, it could be seen as a passing on of the torch from the older brother to the younger brother: “I've reached the end of my road, but you need to keep fighting.” And so I can see it being intended in that way. But again, we're back to that surface level: that looking at it as the top layer of the narrative―and then thinking about it within a wider context. And specifically within the fandom “Always Keep Fighting” is a mental health call. It's a rallying cry for people with mental health issues to continue their battle rather than giving in to the darkness that can overwhelm us. And I'm saying this as somebody who wrestles with depression, and with anxiety, and I've been working my way through some PTSD. So on the surface, this is like a, “I want my younger brother to keep fighting. Even though I've reached the end of my road, I'm urging him to continue on the battle in my stead. To fight back against the trauma of my loss; to not be overwhelmed by it. But to continue on in my stead.”


Chrisha:

Mmhm.


Catherine:

“And to keep fighting the good fight, even though I can't do it anymore.” And that's kind of the straightforward interpretation/message of it. But what's happening with the visuals that are undercutting this, is it's being said by a brother who actively denies the opportunity to even possibly get helped. It's being said by a brother who basically encourages Sam to put his cell phone away and not get any first aid supplies that could have helped in some way. It's being said by a character who in the past has had suicidal ideation, who has literally killed himself to try to save his brother, multiple times. And it's being said by a character who, throughout this episode we have been told with the visual cues, is in a very bad mental health space. 


Chrisha:

Yeah. 


Catherine:

And so the surface message is very positive. But what's underpinning that surface narrative is very, very troubling, and dangerous, and problematic, and bad. And so again, what's going on underneath the surface is problematizing the surface narrative in a very profound way. 


Chrisha: 

Yeah. You know, there's a part of me that wonders if what they were trying to do was to tell the fandom to continue fighting after the show was gone. Um … 


Catherine:  

*pain laughs* But instead, it ended up traumatizing us all deeply.


Chrisha: 

Right. *pain laughs* I would say they missed the mark on that. 


Catherine:  

Yeah. Big tailspin. Like, that was a fail. Sorry, guys.


Chrisha: 

Mmhm. So yeah, that line being invoked at that time, in that way, I feel was one of those definitive times in this episode where it took something important and meaningful and healing and twisted it to be something damaging. It took something safe and made it unsafe, and I … I just … It's so frustrating, you know?


Catherine:  

Yep. And regardless of the intentions, which we can't know what they were― 


Chrisha:

Right. 


Catherine:

―this was the result. 


Chrisha:

Right. 


Catherine:

And I think part of the anger that is ongoing―and again, we're getting into feelings here, but it's very hard not to. I think part of the ongoing anger about this is that this Always Keep Fighting campaign has touted itself as being a space that is responsive to people with mental health issues. It's drawn in a lot of people over the years who have mental health issues, who struggle with depression, who struggle with suicidal ideation, who struggle with PTSD, struggle with anxiety, who struggle with all kinds of different things. And so, I've said this in the past, this is a very powerful fandom, but it's also a very vulnerable fandom. And to this vulnerable fandom it invoked the words that are a rallying cry in a way that linked it forever for a huge portion of us with an unnecessary death, a death that was linked to failing mental health and suicidal ideation, and a death that was the only release from a difficult struggle of a life. 


Chrisha:

Yeah. 


Catherine:

And so I cannot understate how angry it makes me, personally, that this phrase was used in this way. And that nobody said― Nobody, nobody stopped this from happening. Nobody stopped this from reaching this vulnerable fandom. 


Chrisha:

Yeah.


Catherine:

Just the absolute obscenity that this is I literally cannot understate. So I think for me, this was one of the moments of real rage. 


Chrisha:

Yeah. 


Catherine:

Because I'm protective of this fandom, you know? I know countless people in this fandom who are vulnerable because of their mental health, and who have found safety in this show, in the Always Keep Fighting movement and then were told via the messaging of this moment, and the way that this Always Keep Fighting was invoked, that there's no hope. And so this for me is one of those moments of utter rejection.


Chrisha:   

Yeah. So the next line, Dean says, “I love you so much, my baby brother.” And he says it so openly. And so … It was beautiful. You know? That he just says, “I love you so much.” And I do feel like that … I mean, it certainly was reminiscent of Cas. Obviously, they're stating different kinds of love. But the openness and the vulnerability, and the, just, finally shedding all of that toxic masculinity crap, and just saying what's real, I thought was really lovely. But, you know, after he says it, he says, “Oh, man, I did not think this would be the day. But it is; it is. And that's, that's okay.” It's like, he has these moments of like, “I cannot believe this is happening.” You know, “This is not what I want to be happening.” 


Catherine:

It's interesting, because there's so much conflict in this entire speech. 


Chrisha:

Mmhm.


Catherine:  

It’s deeply, deeply conflicted with itself. 


Chrisha:

Mmhm.


Catherine:

And, uh, deeply, deeply confusing emotionally to watch and experience. Man, the whiplash is real. 


Chrisha:

Yeah. But and then he asks Sam to tell them it's okay―to tell him it's okay to go. And so, you know, Dean, who never asks for anything, who isn't fighting for his own life? Now asks Sam to be okay with that. And like, I get it on a surface level. Right? He wants to break the cycle. He wants to have it be Sam letting him go, some taking control back in the situation, you know. He wants permission to stop being Sam's protector, you know, to leave Sam. And so at a very surface, like a very superficial level, I get it. But not fighting for his life after spending so much of his life being suicidal. And then, one of the few things he asks for is for Sam to tell him it's okay―that Dean's decision to die without trying to save himself is okay. When we are now firmly in the mental health messaging. We have invoked Always Keep Fighting. Like, that is right at the forefront. I found that to be disturbing. 


Catherine:

*breathes out slowly* Yep. Yep. 


Chrisha:

And then on top of that, you know, Sam tells him it's okay. And Dean smiles. And … he … relaxes. He exhales, and then a tear falls. And we are … In my mind, I think the exhale is supposed to show peace? He's smiling because Sam let him go. I guess he's crying because he doesn't want to go? Which is that conflict again? But … 


Catherine:  

The imagery of death as release― 


Chrisha:

Yeah, I don't―uh-uh.  


Catherine:

No. It's just the fact that is framed in this way …


Chrisha: 

Right. That’s what it is. It's not about that death can't be a release, because of course it can in certain circumstances. But they have tied it to mental health, directly. For a character who has struggled with mental health for all 15 years and whose mental health has been front and center all season. 


Catherine:

*tightly* Yep.


Chrisha:

And that is why it's just so dangerous. So damaging. This is where the trauma comes from. This direct link between mental health and death being a peaceful release. It's just …  I wish that there was literally any other way that I could see it, because I … I’ve tried. 


Catherine:

Mmhm. Yup.


Chrisha:

*inhales deeply* I'm gonna breathe some more now. *exhales slowly* 


Catherine:  

It's, it's, it's hard. It's … *laughs self-deprecatingly* It's one of those moments where I don't have adequate words. 


Chrisha:

No. 


Catherine:

And so I think what we've just done here is important. We've done a couple of things, we've broken down the dissonance between what Dean says and how he feels, which is very much a part of this speech. But we've also broken down the words that invoke mental health with the images and messaging about mental health, and how dangerously these two things were connected within this dialogue. 


Chrisha:

Yeah. 


Catherine:

And so I think deconstructing these elements is an important exercise. As painful as it is, and as angering as it is, and as all of the other feelings that it is, I think it's important exercise to be able to go through it and look at the wording and break down why the wording is problematic and how the images associated with the wording problematize the language that is spoken. And so I know this was really difficult for us to talk through. And I'm sure it was also very difficult to listen to you if you're able to listen to this part of it. But I think that what we're doing here is an important exercise to kind of break down the language and the imagery that is this scene so that we can understand the mechanics of how it worked and why it worked the way that it did in such a dangerous way. 


Chrisha:

Yeah. *exhales slowly*


Catherine:

Okay. So, this was very heavy. 


Chrisha:

*small laugh* Mmhm. 


Catherine:

So thank you for tuning in for this episode. I know that it was a tough one. But we're really glad that you're here with us for it, we hope that it was helpful. And we just want to send out a lot of love to everybody who's listened, because this is hard. And even as we're going through things in a more analytical way, there are a lot of emotions that are attached, because it is a deeply, deeply emotional scene and a deeply difficult scene. So we just want to acknowledge that one more time as we're kind of wrapping here. So thank you for going on this journey with us and bearing with us as we've kind of worked our way through it. And again, we hope it was helpful for you. I feel like it's been helpful for both of us. And you can message us and stay up to date with the latest on our Twitter and Instagram pages that's @TheFangirlBiz, b-i-zee or b-i-zed. We will see you again next time, and until then, carry on Wayward Friends. We love you. Bye! 


Chrisha:

Bye.


*Outro Electric Guitar Theme Music - “Play the Game” by VooDoo Blooze*



OUTTAKE:


Catherine:

Okay, outro?


Chrisha:

Mmhm.


Catherine:

*in suddenly weirdly Canadian/Newfoundland accent* All right there. *pause* So … I went super Canadian there, eh?


Chrisha:
*bursts out laughing*


Catherine:

*snickers* What the f**k was that?


Chrisha:

*continues to cackle, then snorts* I’ve never heard you like that.


Catherine:

*joins in the cackling* I just turned into a Newfie there for a second. What the f**k? *in a horrendous Newfoundland accent* “Hey there, bye.” Mmm. Mmkay. 


Chrisha:

What are we doing, eh? 


Catherine:

*chuckles* Yup.



Transcribed by https://otter.ai