Virtually Anything Goes - a WebinarExperts Podcast
The "Virtually Anything Goes" podcast covers a wide range of topics centered around digital events, webinars, and livestreaming - as well as virtually anything else.
Lev Cribb talks to his guests about their passions in business and what drives them to achieve great results, while leaving plenty of space for their personal stories and achievements as well.
Listen in to hear, and learn, from subject matter experts and leaders in their field.
Virtually Anything Goes is a Webinarexperts.com podcast
Virtually Anything Goes - a WebinarExperts Podcast
Mastering Public Speaking: Expert Tips from Maryanne Johnston. Virtually Anything Goes podcast
Public Speaking Expert and Coach Maryanne Johnston joins host Lev Cribb on the Virtually Anything Goes Podcast Expert Series to share advice and insightful stories about Public Speaking.
Curious about the secrets of mastering public speaking? Our latest episode features Maryanne Johnston, a seasoned public speaking coach with over two decades of experience, who compares conquering stage fright to learning to drive a car. Maryanne breaks down how understanding your natural communication style can help you transition smoothly into more formal settings and conquer common fears, like stage fright and the fear of the unknown. You'll discover tailored techniques to harness your strengths and build lasting confidence in any speaking scenario.
Unearth the art of crafting engaging presentations with our deep dive into audience analysis and message structuring. Maryanne passionately explains how understanding your audience's background and expectations serves as a compass for your narrative. Learn the power of compelling stories, case studies, and visual aids to create memorable and impactful presentations. We also discuss the dual importance of preparation and delivery to ensure your content hits the mark every time.
Our episode concludes with practical tips on mastering delivery strategies, from maintaining a conversational pace to using strategic pauses and embracing silence. Maryanne shares cautionary tales about the pitfalls of humour and underscores the significance of cultural sensitivity, especially in international settings. You'll also get insightful advice on balancing scripting with spontaneous speaking and strategies for recovering from mistakes. With lessons drawn from TED Talks and real-world anecdotes, this episode equips you with the tools to excel in any public speaking endeavour.
This episode is part of our Expert Series, where we speak to experts from a variety of different backgrounds, including Sleep & Insomnia, Addiction, Public Speaking, Eye Surgery, Crisis Communications, and even Magic! So be sure to subscribe and check out our other episodes on our Youtube Channel at @WebinarExperts
Find out more about Maryanne Johnston at https://www.maryannejohnston.co.uk/ or connect with her on Linkedin at https://www.linkedin.com/in/maryannejohnston/
Find and listen the audio-only version of this episode on your favourite podcast platform.
For more information, content, and podcast episodes go to https://www.webinarexperts.com
Connect with Lev Cribb at https://www.linkedin.com/in/levcribb/
I seriously advise you not to use the joke. He was so determined he just said no, I'm not taking the advice, I think it's going to be brilliant. You know it will be great and I will never forget just leaving the session thinking, oh God, you know how's this going to go. And the next morning rang him up how does it go? And he said it absolutely died.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Virtually Anything Goes podcast. This episode is part of our expert series, and each episode features a new expert from a range of interesting topics. Throughout the series, you'll hear about sleep and insomnia, addiction, mentoring, crisis communication, sales, eye surgery and even magic. You don't want to miss what the experts have to share, so subscribe and follow this podcast now, and then sit back and listen in.
Speaker 3:Today's expert guests helps individuals and teams build confidence in front of an audience, whether it's a small audience or an audience of thousands. Her expertise helps others to overcome their fear of public speaking and hone their skills ahead of important events. Marianne Johnston has been a public speaking coach and consultant for over 20 years. During this time, she has worked with organizations such as Specsavers, the University of Edinburgh Speedo, the NHS and Salomon. Marianne has helped hundreds of teams and aspiring speakers to understand their own unique style and how to relax into it. Rather than adopting generic public speaking best practices, marianne's approach provides speakers with a range of tools, techniques and tactics to draw on, allowing them to confidently and continually grow their presentation and pitching skills. Marianne offers a variety of online and bespoke in-person public speaking courses and is also the host of the Agile Speaker podcast. Marianne Johnson, welcome to the Virtually Anything Goes podcast. I'm delighted to have you on the show.
Speaker 1:Thanks, Lev. It's an absolute delight to be here. I'm really excited about our conversation.
Speaker 3:Wonderful. It's great to have you on the show Now. For those of you who have not listened to this podcast before, we have something very special at the end. You should know that at the end of the podcast, I turn control over to Marianne for the Virtually Anything Goes question. This is where Marianne can ask me any question she likes. It doesn't have to be related to today's topic and I will have to answer it, no matter what it is. I won't know what the question is before Marianne asks it, but the only caveat is that Marianne will have to answer the same question after I've given my answer. And, of course, if you liked today's topic and today today's episode, please help us grow this podcast by liking and subscribing to it and share it with somebody who you think will like it too. So, marianne, let me start with this question Is public speaking really only for select few people who are confident and experienced senior business leaders and people, perhaps, who have already a following, or can anyone become a public speaker?
Speaker 1:perhaps who have already a following, or can anyone become a public speaker? Do you know, lev? I firmly believe that this is a skill that everybody can learn. I really believe that it's something that, once you understand the tools, the techniques and what makes you a good communicator, when you're relaxed, this is something that, with those tools and toolkit, you're relaxed. This is something that, with those tools and toolkit, everybody can learn. This skill, you know, we often hear people talking about public speaking or presenting as being an art, and I think there is truth to that, but I think it's also a science and that when you can understand what is it that makes you personally, as an individual, a good communicator, when you're relaxed, in conversation with family and friends and colleagues, then you sort of look at all those elements, what makes you good in conversation, and then transfer them into those more maybe formal environments, maybe less comfortable environments, then you know it really is a skill that everybody can learn and it's really about analyzing your conversational style and understanding that and so, yeah, and it's a skill.
Speaker 1:You know, if you think about, um, being able to learn to drive a car, you know that's a skill that most people are able to learn to do, no matter what their background, experience or whatever. And, as with driving a car, you start having lessons and your instructor shows you all the different ins and outs of learning to drive a car, and about theory and also putting into practice around the roads, et cetera. And with practice then you pass your test and then you do it for as many years as you want to do it, but in the same, you know, I think it's like. I like to compare it to that as a skill, because I really believe it's something that we can all do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I can see. And what I can see also is that I mentioned a sort of unique approach that you have. I think that seems to be reflecting your answer there just now as well. We'll dive into that, I'm sure you have. I think that seems to be reflected in your answer there just now as well. We'll dive into that, I'm sure. But you know it's such a, I would imagine, anxiety inducing topic for some people. What are some of the most common fears that people have or aspects of public speaking that people struggle with? And I guess how can anybody who aspires to be a public speaker deal with that fear and stage fright and things like that aspires to be a public speaker deal with?
Speaker 1:that fear and stage fright and things like that. Yeah, so I think you know there's a variety of different things I come across with clients. I think actually, probably the biggest thing is the fear of the unknown, isn't it? If, particularly if it's something that, if a client comes to me and says I've been asked to speak at this big event, and if it's something they've either never done before or they haven't done it for quite a long time, so they're a bit rusty. It's that feeling of walking out on a stage in front of a large group of people and the unknown of what's going to happen next. But other, perhaps more specific things that I come across are people will say that they maybe think they speak too quickly. They will say they're worried about going blank.
Speaker 1:I think there is a bit of a myth. I suppose that to be a good public speaker, you need to be able to stand there with no notes, no script, nothing, and just be able to speak. And I think that people see that and think is that what I need to be able to do? And then they're terrified that they're going to forget. You know, they're going to freeze Then other things. I suppose, following on from that, they might see other people and think I want to be like that. You know they want to emulate somebody else's style and of course that's just not going to work because you are not the same person as them. So I think that's also probably adding an extra layer of pressure, if that's part of it. And then there's other things, like waffling I've just done it myself Umbs and errs. You know those kind of little conversational tics that can happen and perhaps happen more when you're under pressure. Then lack of preparation time you know, I think a lot of people struggle with putting time into preparation and maybe don't know how long something's going to take, and therefore they just keep putting it off and leaving it to the last minute. So, yeah, I think those are probably the main things that are quite common.
Speaker 1:Uh, you know fears or struggles, and I think, as I just said earlier, you know this is a skill, it is something that I believe we can all learn.
Speaker 1:So, to counteract all of those things, if you, you know, if you can, then therefore do a course where you get opportunities to learn how to be more efficient in preparation, so you're not thinking oh my goodness, this is going to take me hours to plan this narrative and do the slides, but you know I can help someone put together a structure pretty quickly and actually it means that the procrastination and the you know thinking of all through actually is quite quick and streamlined, and you know so, doing courses, you know you can read books, you can listen to podcasts, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:Ultimately, I think it's it is as a skill, it is a practical skill, it's something you actually have to do so you could read a book and go, oh yeah, that will make sense, but you have to put it into practice. So getting experience, um, I think that helps people to overcome those fears. And then other things around, like breathing techniques, are a really good way of helping people to settle themselves and calm their nerves and get into the zone before an event. And also, I think there's a big part of your mindset and how you're framing, how you talk to yourself ahead of an event as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, interesting because I think the breathing one I think we probably mostly fall short of, don't we? Interesting because I think the breathing one I think we probably mostly fall short of, don't we? I remember having it explained to me once when somebody said, when you seemingly become out of breath during a talk or your voice starts to sort of quiver and you're struggling to inhale, it's because you've inhaled too much and your lungs are full and you're constantly trying to top up and and you know that really affects your, your speech. Um, but that's fascinating because I'm sure everybody will relate to certain aspects that you mentioned with it. But they think, well, yeah, I do this or I do that and I've experienced this before and, um, I'd love to dive into that a little bit more. But, uh, you mentioned structures as part of the answer. There as well, are there particular structures that um, um, or certain aspects of a talk that people can deploy that will have a real impact on the audience as part of that speech that they've prepared?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so. It's interesting because I listened to a couple of your other podcasts recently with Sam and Sam, who both talked about you know it's all about communication for both of them and it was really interesting hearing you know what they're talking about, because probably your first port of call, the absolute first thing that you need to do with structuring your plan is to think of your audience and if you can think about who is it I'm speaking to and both Sam's talked about this as well if you put yourself in the minds of your audience, your listeners, and think what are their expectations of this presentation, event, conference, whatever it is, what are their? What do they need to hear from my narrative? What messages are most useful to them? And think about, get inside their heads and think what kind of background do they have? Are they extremely technical and experienced in this topic, or are they perhaps a bit more generalist? And how do you pitch it to either audience? It's really getting inside their heads and thinking what do they want to know rather than what do I want to tell them?
Speaker 1:And if you, then, having done that audience analysis and I often talk about the audience analysis as being a little bit like a compass because once you've really done as much as you can on that audience analysis, it sets the direction of travel for your narrative and sometimes you might glean a couple of snippets of intelligence from some.
Speaker 1:You know. It might be something you've read up on LinkedIn or on somebody's website or a conversation you've had with someone who's connected to that audience, where you glean something that just shifts your compass a couple of degrees in a different direction. So the audience analysis is absolutely critical and I've, you know, a couple of examples in my time of business where if I hadn't done the amount of research I'd done on the audience analysis for a pitch, specifically where I was pitching for work with the bank, um, the information I gleaned about the board of directors I was going to speak to completely it was like a game changer for how I approached my pitch. And afterwards I looked back and thought if I hadn't found out the information I'd found out beforehand, I don't think I'd have got the work. You know know it was absolutely critical. The audience analysis piece.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's what Sam McKenna talked about, wasn't it? The show me, you know me.
Speaker 1:Show me, you know me Totally.
Speaker 3:And just looking at individual, you know, perhaps not as publicly available, publicly available but not as commonly chosen by people to talk about. Yeah, the conversation partner.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and it might be. If it's an event, say you can speak to the event organizers and say you know, what can you tell me about the audience? I mean, clearly, this is something that's a lot easier. If it's a smaller group, you can get into a lot more detail of what those people are looking for. If it's a you know, if it's a huge conference, you're not going to be able to find out about everybody, but you might just glean a bit of you know, what level are these people working at? You know, are they very senior level? Or you know, as I said earlier about that sort of technical, non-technical, that kind of thing? And just what are they coming for? What do they want to learn about?
Speaker 1:And that then drives in terms of your structure what key messages do I want them to walk out of the room thinking about? And I'm not saying topics or subjects, it's messages. What are the messages you want them walking away about, thinking about? And that then basically sets up a backbone of your narrative, and it might be anything between you know, one to five key messages, depending on how long you've got it's probably everybody talks about it being in threes, but so you might have three key messages and those supply that, that sort of backbone.
Speaker 1:And then you sort of flesh those that backbone out by thinking about how can I, what are the proof points, what's the evidence I can use to support my messages? And for that you'd be thinking about examples, case studies, facts and figures, data, stories, anecdotes, analogies, all that kind of thing, and that's what then brings the narrative to life. And all the way through you're always thinking is this relevant to the audience, is this interesting to the audience? So you're always coming back to that audience and that is what really drives your direction, as I said, like the compass yeah, I mean, that's that's the structure, isn't it?
Speaker 3:but yeah, I think you seem to be touching on sort of techniques that you know there are some talks that really captivate us, where, you know, we hang on every word and and it's just almost impossible to sort of not listen and and and look away. Are there some additional techniques that that allow us to create something that's really memorable, really engaging in a talk beyond the structure that you covered, or are they sort of related?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I suppose I often think about the preparing for any presentation and I always think about it in two parts. There's preparation and then there's the delivery. So on the preparation as I said, audience messaging and then on the structural bit, you're really thinking about that. What stories, what case study, what anecdotes, what can I use that brings colour to the subject? And those can really be the things that you really hook people with, Because if it's all relevant to that audience in that room, they will be really hooked on every word that you say there might also be, you know, you might want to bring in any visual aids, so there might be something visual that you also use that also adds colour and makes the presentation memorable. But you've got to be selective about that. That's a whole other topic. But you know they can really earn their place around what you're talking about and, done appropriately, can create a really amazing presentation for you that creates impact.
Speaker 1:On the delivery side there's you know I talked about how one of the fears people have is often about speaking too quickly their their pace. So on the delivery side, it's thinking about delivering the narrative at a conversational pace. So you're speaking, you're using silence, you're using pauses, which we all do in conversation. Naturally, Many people aren't aware that they're doing it, but it's a very, very natural part of our style. So by using silence in between your ideas, you're allowing the audience to stop and think about what you've said, digest and process it, and you're also creating silences for you as well that add weight and add credibility to what you're saying. So we think before we speak. Very often, If you ask me a question, I'll stop and think for a second. So that creates almost a moment of, I suppose, suspense for an audience of what are they going to say next. So it's a little bit like it's almost like a dance, I suppose, between the delivery of what you're saying and the content that you're saying, and the two things really are what bring together a really successful presentation.
Speaker 3:What role does humor play? Because there are talks that will never use any kind of humor, and perhaps certain situations either, but then often it doesn't have to be a best man's speech or anything like that to use humor. But where does humor come in in a, you know, in a speech, perhaps in a business setting, and, and are there some um considerations for presenting to an international audience, perhaps where that doesn't necessarily work?
Speaker 1:yeah. So humor is high risk, you know you not be funny, and that's the biggest risk. So I think, and even if you are funny, you've still got to capture the audience's attention to what it is that you're actually talking about. So it comes back to the audience again. Who's in the audience? How well do you know them? Is the humor relevant and appropriate for them? That's the answer to whether humor should be used or not.
Speaker 1:I think that you've got to think about what's your intention for using humor. If you're thinking and this is what some people, clients, will say to me they'll say thinking, and this is what some people, clients, will say to me they'll say well, it just kind of breaks the ice, doesn't it? And I say, well, who are you breaking the ice for? You're breaking it for yourself. If it comes back to you're doing it because it helps you in that situation, then it's probably not the right thing to do. So I would always be very cautious with humour, as you just mentioned. If it's best man speeches, wedding speeches, birthday speeches, you know that's a more appropriate kind of audience. But you still need to think about who is in the audience and whether they get the stories and the jokes. You know, we've probably all been to weddings and I have helped people with wedding speeches where you know, know, the best man has shown me the first draft and I'll look through and think, listen, you guys, the stags all know that story, but it doesn't make sense to me and if I'm a member of that wedding party, your story needs to be told in a way that everybody gets it. So you're not anybody.
Speaker 1:But I have also in a business setting and it's quite rare that this happens actually, because it's high risk but I did have a client a long time ago who was a senior banker for a bank here in Scotland and he was based in Glasgow and he was doing an after dinner speech for a business event in Edinburghinburgh and I was helping him with the speech that he was that he was going to deliver, and I remember when we were writing it and then rehearsing it and he said I've got this brilliant joke I'm going to use at the start, marianne, it's absolutely hilarious, it's really good and I um, okay, run it by me. And you might be aware, some listeners might be aware and this happens, I think, across different countries, cities in the world, but in Scotland there is a little bit of competition between Edinburgh and Glasgow around lots of different things. So he's Glasgow, the events in Edinburgh, and the joke was about that sort of competition. He was basically having a dig at the people of Edinburgh and I was like you cannot use this joke, it's not going to be good, it's not going to go down. Well, I seriously advise you not to use the joke. He was so determined he just said no, I'm not taking the advice. I think it's going to be brilliant. You know it will be great and I'll never forget leaving the session thinking, oh God, you know how is this going to go.
Speaker 1:And the next morning rang him up, how does it go? And he said it absolutely died. The joke fell flat, you know. There was no reaction and it was the first thing he did. He used it as his kind of strong start at the beginning. And so you know he said it's so hard to recover and I was like, well, I told you not to do it. So, yeah, you've got to be so careful, but the same.
Speaker 1:And then you know you mentioned international audiences. Again it comes back to audience and thinking, um, again, look into where that? What? Where is the audience from? Is it a specific country that you're going to present? Is it a mixed audience? And, just doing a bit of a recce on, are there any specific things around that culture that you should be aware of or to expect?
Speaker 1:Now I've got a client based in London who are owned by a Japanese company and when I was working with some of their teams, who were quite new to going into some of the board meetings, and they said, you know, it's really disconcerting because we can be sitting around the board table and some of the Japanese directors are there and as we're presenting, they sit there with their eyes closed.
Speaker 1:Actors are there and as we're presenting, they sit there with their eyes closed. And I was like okay, and they said, yeah, it's really disconcerting because you're like, you know, has he got jet lag? Is he asleep? But I'm here trying to present something? Um, and they, but they had looked up, you know, and they and they discussed and looked into cultural differences and he said that's how they listen. So when they're sitting in the board meeting, their eyes are closed. It doesn't mean they're not listening, it's just that is how they zone out everything else and that's how they're listening to you. But quite a useful thing to understand that before you're going into that meeting. Otherwise it could cause all sorts of problems for you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, of course you mentioned a few things. You mentioned around scripting and you know scripting your speech. You know I'm sure we've all seen speeches or listened to speeches that were seemingly off the cuff. And I know from my own experience when I do a script for a speech, I know that I will get down everything I want to say and the script will reflect what I want to say and what are the points I want to make. And back to your earlier point you don't want to go blank on anything, so you have that script, but then I do also know that the delivery of that is perhaps not as natural as me telling a story or anecdotes, like you mentioned as well. So where do you stand on scripting versus off-the-cuff speeches? And on either side, are they developed skills or is one better than the other? You know any views on that?
Speaker 1:yeah. So I sit in a very comfortable place right in the middle of the two, the two things. So I think that and this is really, uh, you know something. A lot of people you know this is the thing that everyone thinks it's either you've got nothing, or you're memorizing something, or you've got too much a full script. And, of course, we also need to remember that all the different situations we're presenting in every day are different.
Speaker 1:You know you're in a meeting, you're in a pitch, it might be two of you and a team on the other side of the table, it might be you speaking at a more you know larger group presentation or a conference. So you might have a different tool for each of these different situations. But the so the script, can be fantastic if you're in a formal situation where you've got a lectern, so you, you know you can have the script sitting there. You've got a lectern, so you, you know you can have the script sitting there. Um, and I think where every single word needs to be absolutely you know it's critical that every single word is correct, but it has to be written the way that you speak. It has to be conversational, and that can take a bit of working out, because the way that we type and write is grammatically correct subject, verb, object and therefore the way that we naturally write something. You then feel awkward presenting it if it hasn't been written the way you speak. So that's one part that you can have a script, and I teach people how to deliver from a script so it still comes across being conversational, but it's probably not something that you're going to do on a regular basis. So the on the off the cuff, part off the cuff, or relying on your brain essentially to memorize everything you're going to say, that's another piece that I think is quite high risk, because you are putting yourself under even more pressure to remember everything in the right order at the right time, and we've all seen politicians or people on TV forgetting something they meant to say or doing it in the wrong order, and so, again, I just think that's really high risk and I don't think there's any real need to put yourself under that pressure. And in some people you know Steve Jobs, well known for being able to stand and just speak while he was on stage, and you do see politicians and other well-known people speaking from memory, but it takes a long time to do that, doesn't it? To be able to memorize something that's going to take a huge that, doesn't it to be able to memorize something that's going to take a huge amount of your time to be able to do? And I think the other point about that is can you do that consistently every single time you present? If you do it once and you do it brilliantly, but then you're not able to do it because you don't have the time for other opportunities, then it's not a consistent approach.
Speaker 1:So where I stand in the middle is to have some sort of bullet points or prompts, and you can set them up a bit like the structure I talked about. So you have your messaging and then your examples and your case studies and your stories etc. And I show people how to do it in a really easy format. That's easy on the eye and it's just three to four word bullet points and it means that you've got a safety net to help you to feel comfortable, more relaxed, because you know you've got that safety net there as backup.
Speaker 1:If you need it and it might just be, you have it in your pocket, you know, or you can hold it in your hand, but it's just. It is. To me it's one of the simplest tools in the toolkit for us all to use, and yet it seems to be such a game changer for so many of my clients because it's like wow, I'm allowed to do this, I can have notes, and the key to it is just never looking reliant on them. You know they're there to help you to feel safe. Like you know, it's a bit like an insurance policy you hope to not really need to use them, but they're there to help you feel safe.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I remember a situation where I was working for a company a long time ago and we had an internal meeting and there was some new hires in the meeting as well and we were talking about giving a talk or introduction or a demo of something that we were working on which I'd done literally hundreds of times before, and they said, lev, can you just show the new hires, kind of how you do it? Yeah, no problem. And I remember starting off with the wrong sentence for some reason, I don't know why, but about three sentences in there went blank, completely blank, and I did not know whether I was coming or going, where I was, how to recover. And it was just that wrong start because it was so internalized that, because I started differently for some reason because of the situation we're in, is not perhaps with a customer or whatever it was, I don't recall, but it just made me go completely blank.
Speaker 3:So yeah and and that's probably is you know you mentioned is one of the the sort of most common fears. Do you have any strategies you can recommend to somebody that where they can recover from a mistake when they're on on stage?
Speaker 1:yeah, so well, for that particular thing of your mind going blank, the answer is, I think first of all it's what you do to prevent that from happening in the first place. So having the structure, having the notes, doing the rehearsal, those kind of things can really help prevent something happening. But I think you know the first thing about that. You know mistakes happen and we're all human and there's nothing wrong with that happening. You know these sort of things in conversation as we speak to each other, we trip up, we stumble, we might repeat ourselves. It's no big deal as long as we recover ourselves and keep going. The person we're speaking to isn't sitting there thinking, you know you just made a big mistake. So you know, I think it's important almost not to strive too much for perfection, because that adds pressure, adrenaline causes sorry pressure causes adrenaline to flow and then that's where things can start to go wrong. So you know, number one is don't worry if you make a mistake, because these things happen. But I think the preventing side of it, of having your notes, having those prompts rehearsing if you can get to the venue, rehearsing the venue so that all these things are familiar, and then hopefully you've got some notes in your pocket that you are able to. Then I mean, if I was working with the individual, I'd be saying, you know, I'd be showing them how to use notes and you'd have them there on the desk or in your pocket so that if you need them, you can glance at them and that will help you to then recover.
Speaker 1:And touching back on what I said earlier about how we use silence in conversation, you can also really use that as your friend when you need to recover, of thinking. You don't have to talk all the time. You can just stop, take a moment, recover in your brain where was I, what was I trying to say, and then go back on track. And that gap of time to you will probably feel enormous because the adrenaline is flowing and it will really be flowing at that point, but to the audience they'll probably barely even notice it's happened. You know it's the adrenaline distorts our body clocks, so those pauses can feel huge to us, but to the audience they're a couple of clicks, no big deal. So it's really just, you know, taking that moment to stop, breathe, think about where am I, or check your notes, get back on track and then carry on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean a couple of. I've had a couple of clients who've had moments where actually the the thing that caused the problem was out of their control. So they were both at big events in Edinburgh. One was a pitching competition where the client had three minutes to deliver a pitch and then seven minutes of Q&A and it's really tight timing. You're on stage quite high stakes game.
Speaker 1:She knew her pitch inside out. We'd worked on it really hard. She knew she had done it in her sleep when she was on stage, 20 seconds into the pitch, suddenly there was this blast of music. That happened somewhere and it had nothing to do with the pitch and I was sitting in the audience thinking what was that? And it was something you know the AV team, something had happened and she stopped and I remember thinking, oh my goodness, all this work that we've put into this pitch, I, you know, is this gonna throw her. But she just stopped, kind of acknowledged it looked a bit you know what was that. And then she had a little business card with her notes on in her hand and she just checked and got straight back on track and finished the pitch and it was absolutely fine. Um, so you know the preparation. I think there was what helped her to recover.
Speaker 1:And the other example was a guy at an event in edinburgh again, and the slides and again I think they were being controlled by the av team. He started his presence. It was, you know, big scale. In fact, it was EIE, which you guys worked on a few years ago I think as well, when it was online. This was an in-person event. Anyway, he walked on and it was the wrong slide behind him and he was like, and I was in the audience again thinking oh no, but he just went, just did it and he wasn't reliant on the slides.
Speaker 1:So this, coming back to the slides, ideas don't want to be reliant on the slides being there. You need to be reliant on your narrative in your notes and he was able just to carry on, no problem at all and you know, no issue at all. So it's uh, yeah, the prep.
Speaker 3:I think it's really about the preventative stuff and the rehearsal that really can help the more, the more you talk, the more it brings back memories of different situations I've been in which I'd sort of forgotten about. But I was just messaging with somebody onin a few days ago and they said I remember you from from an event, um that where, where I presented, and he reminded me. Well, the conversation reminded me that that was the event where, two minutes into my presentation, the, the projector, went and I had about 25 minutes worth of presentation on there and you know, at first you'd sort of try and buy a little bit of time and then you know, check with the av guys, it's going to come back. Or is you know? At first you sort of try and buy a little bit of time and then you know, check with the AV guys, is this going to come back, or is you know, in the end he gave me a, it's not coming back.
Speaker 1:It's not coming back.
Speaker 3:So you know, and you know, luckily, as you said, I'd prepared it well enough. I knew what the slides were and I'd sort of tried to describe them with hand and feet, and actually that made it more memorable, not the failure, but the actual. You know, me standing there with arms in the air and trying to show how a graph would would look like, um, yeah, so, but luckily I'd prepared well enough. I mean, there's other examples, I'm sure that I can think of where I haven't. Um, and it made it a bit more awkward, but um, it's all a learning curve, I guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally. But it's interesting because actually it probably does. As you said, it probably becomes more memorable for the audience the way that you ended up doing it and and actually you know those errors that can happen. I think we, you know, I think often people do strive for perfection and and really want to deliver the best thing and for it to be absolutely word perfect.
Speaker 1:But I've been at other events again pitching competitions, where they've got, you know, one minute elevator pitch for investors, so they've got to literally in one minute describe what it is they're doing and why an investor would want to invest in the business. And again there was a lady who didn't want to have the cards because she thought it was just one minute, but actually, if anything, that's the most pressure and she went completely blank halfway through. She managed to recover and get back on track and just kind of wrap it up at the end. She got the most attention at the end when everybody's networking after the meal because everybody was coming up saying, oh don't worry, you did so well and then she got loads of conversations out of it in the end. So it actually really worked in her favor.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I remember one of the. Actually they all come flooding back now. But one of the earliest memories I've got from presenting was I was told I had a minute. It was like a really fast kind of speed dating. It wasn't pitching, but just kind of giving information, but on stage. So you weren't one-to-one and I was told repeatedly I had one minute, one minute. It doesn't matter how many slides you've got, as long as you get through them in one minute.
Speaker 3:So I prepared this and then, just as I was about to go on stage, the stage manager said by the way, we've changed the format, so you have about 10, 15 minutes. If you want, hold on, I've prepared for a minute. What's going on? So what I tried to do was deliver the one minute thing that I'd prepared, which was reasonably quick and it was meant to be dynamic. Whether it was or not, I don't know, but I was trying to do all these things in one minute. And then I didn't really have much more and I could see the audience look at me thinking what was that? What's this guy on? Why is he? Why has he stopped? And and that was it. I couldn't really expand it much more because I'd only prepared for a minute, um, and I tried to waffle on and, and you know, biggest mistake I made after that was to go on twitter and see what people said about it. It wasn't particularly complimentary. Good advice don't do that, it's having to.
Speaker 1:That's a really tough situation of not having enough and needing to expand it. I've been in the opposite situation, where I was asked to speak at an event a couple of years ago and it was at a women in business networking event, and so it's a two-hour event. Everybody there has invested their two hours that afternoon to be there. Everybody there has invested their two hours that afternoon to be there. And the lady, the people organizing, said to me right, you've got a 30 minute slot. I said, perfect, I'm going to prepare 20 minutes plus 10 minutes of Q&A. And there was another speaker. So when I arrived, I spent several hours you know, invested several hours in preparing everything I want to say for that 20 minute slot, and I thought about what the Q&A would be and all that stuff. And when I got there, I spoke to the other lady who was speaking before me. I said, oh, so you know, how long are you planning to speak for? And she said, oh well, I was aiming for 20 minutes, but actually when I practiced this morning it was about 40, but it could be five. I don't really know. And I thought, oh, my goodness, what is going to happen here? And she was really nervous.
Speaker 1:And then when she started talking, I could just see because I could see this happening to people from the work I do do, I can see what's going on almost in people's brains and she went all over the shop in her narrative and she did actually have notes, but she was not following them and I think the adrenaline she started to enjoy it and she just started sort of going all over the place and I was sitting there looking at my watch thinking, right, we're now going into my time.
Speaker 1:And so I was sitting there doing that kind of swan thing of pretending I was completely calm and in my brain going cut, cut, cut, cut because I had my notes, I had notes printed out in a folder. But I was just thinking, right, you just take out that story, take out that example, I won't say this, I won't say that, I'll still get the three messages across. And I was literally just chopping everything out. And then when she eventually stopped and I went up, I said to the organizer how long have I got thinking it's going to be 10 minutes? And she said don't worry, you've got your full half hour. So my brain was like, oh no, and everything goes straight back in again.
Speaker 3:So I just want to dive a little bit into the kind of. You know you mentioned structure and content and the different techniques around that, but there are some other aspects to it as well, right, in terms of the delivery, the vocal range and dynamic speaking voice, non-verbal communication, body language. Can you give some tips on? You know how important that is and perhaps how people can be aware of that and improve it?
Speaker 1:yeah, sure. So, as I said earlier on, my goal is to make sure that clients are being themselves using their natural, relaxed conversational style, so it's really critical that they are being true to themselves, not changing to become something different. Now, thinking about vocal variety, what I talk about is, um, something called your rate of word delivery. So we all have a different rate of word delivery which is as unique to you as your thumbprint, and that's what's really important to keep going at your natural rate, the rate that the words tumble out of your mouth. Now, if you start to slow that down whilst you're presenting, then you will probably become boring and monotonous and your voice will go flat. So it's really about just making sure that you're speaking at the natural rate and that allows that tone to change as you're going along.
Speaker 1:Naturally, there might also be aspects where perhaps in your in, in the narrative that you're speaking about, there are points that require more emphasis or impact and therefore, a little bit like putting bold in a document to make something highlight, to stand out yourself. It might be that perhaps you emphasize that more with your voice, but those are just, you know, small things to consider. Really, it's just about making sure you're speaking the way you naturally speak and not trying to change to become something else. And then on body language, same kind of message again it's. You know I don't have a list of do's and don'ts around that I'm not going to say to a client I want you to stand in a certain way or sit in a certain way or move around the stage in set patterns and then have everybody moving around the stage in set patterns like robots. So you know, if someone prefers to stay in one place and maybe not gesticulate and just stay still, that's entirely their call. You know, if that's what they want to do. Sorry, I'm just going to put that headband that way.
Speaker 1:But equally, if somebody does like to use their hands as they're speaking and I am one of those people a mover and shaker as you're talking, that's part of my personality and so you know, I think you've got to be really careful. You retain those things that are the way that you communicate. Now, clearly, there might be some things where what's happening is a distraction. So you know, somebody's fidgety, they might have a pen that they keep clicking because of their nerves. Put the pen down. If they put their hand in their pockets and they're jangling their keys. Take the keys out, put them on the desk, be aware of that kind of thing, because that would be a distraction to the audience.
Speaker 1:But really, as say, it's about being yourself. And then I think the final piece on that is around eye contact and being appropriate with your eye contact. So you often hear people say the more eye contact you make, the better. Take that to a logical conclusion. That could become a bit creepy if somebody is a hundred percent always making eye contact with their listener. So again, in conversation we use eye contact actually probably not as much as we think we do and we glance away quite a lot as we're talking to other people, but we nearly always come back to them at the end to drive a point home. So again, it's analyzing what it is that we're doing when we're relaxed and then simulating that when you're under pressure so that people see you being yourself.
Speaker 3:Now, we talked about all of this in on the assumption that we're going to be standing on a stage in front of people, um, and then, you know, covid comes along and ruins all of that, and we present to webcams. Does it all apply in the same way? Uh, still, or are there, you know? Do we have to present differently, use different techniques with the webcam if the audience is behind the lens as opposed to, you know, in front of the stage?
Speaker 1:yeah. So I think pretty much all the principles apply, the things that I talk about around preparation and delivery. You're not trying to change who you are. But I mean, probably the biggest thing on this that I talk to clients about is using the webcam for eye contact, because I still find myself in meetings with people where they're sitting looking at me like this and they're looking at me on their screen, their monitor, and I'm kind of like come back to me here and it's self-awareness, you know, they don't realize how they're coming across and it's such an aha moment to a lot of people because they just haven't thought about it. But that's probably the main thing that I think is really important for people to recognize is that they need to look towards the webcam to be making eye contact with their audience at the appropriate times.
Speaker 3:So I mean for me, when I think of public speaking and great talks, I think of TED, I think invariably, and I think probably many, many people do. Is there anything that we can? I'm sure there's plenty of things we can learn. I'm sure there's plenty of things we can learn, but what can we learn from those thousands of presentations that are so engaging, so entertaining, so novel and interesting? Is there?
Speaker 1:anything that they all have in common that we can learn from, anything that we can draw out of that at all. There's probably two things I think are in common. Just to sort of whittle it down to a couple of things. Number one is they all put a huge amount of time into them, don't they? None of those people are just walking out onto that red circle and giving a talk. They will have spent a lot of time preparing and thinking about what they're going to say and rehearsing it, and I know that TED as an organisation, their preparation for events is massive. And if you think about a band going on stage at a concert or a festival being put on or going to the theatre, none of these performers just rock up and think just see how it goes. They're all putting, investing huge amounts of time in beforehand before going out on that stage, as with Ted, and what I see a lot is people just not investing the preparation time into events and therefore it's not surprising that people find it quite a scary thing to do so.
Speaker 1:I think that's. The first thing is they put so much work into their presentations which make it appear so effortless, and yet it will not have been effortless. The second thing that I think is awesome with TED is their approach to slides. You know, very few of the presentations you see have slides that have loads of bullet points and tons of information on, which is what I come across most days in my work is that PowerPoint is still so full and complex with loads of information, which makes it hard for an audience. So TED have been very strict about their guidelines on that and what you tend to see is that if the speaker has slides and not all of them do the slides are visual aids. They have images or really basic chart or graph, but they, you know, they perform that dance I talked about earlier about having really simple, straightforward visuals that interact beautifully with the, the person that's speaking.
Speaker 3:So the speaker leads the whole presentation yeah, it comes back to what you said. You know some people look at this as art. I'm sure there's also a science behind it. Um, it's really fascinating, and and we're not at the end yet but I just want to thank you for all your insights. But now we come to the point where we have the virtually anything goes question. This is the point where I turn control over to Marianne. I've asked plenty of questions. Put you on the spot. Now it's your turn to ask me any question you want. It could be. Anything doesn't have to be related to today's topic and I don't know what the question is going to be, so I'll be just as surprised as the audience. But I have to answer it, no matter what it is. But my caveat is that I will then get to turn the question back to you to answer it as well. So that's my safety net. But go ahead. What's the virtually anything else question you've got for me?
Speaker 1:So I've been a bit cheeky about this. I've got two questions I wanted to ask, and I love this idea, and as soon as you talked to me about it a few weeks ago, my brain just went nuts, thinking of lots of ideas for questions. So one of them, though, I think you've sort of maybe answered already, but I'm going to ask it to you. Well, first of all, am I allowed to ask you two questions?
Speaker 3:Yeah, go for it Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Okay, I think the first one you might. You might feel like you've already answered it, but I'm going to ask it anyway and see what happens. So you know, your work is your. You present during your work and your work is also around delivering. You know the tech side for businesses presenting webinars and all that stuff, which is also really high stakes game, isn't it? And I you know the potential for things going wrong is high, and so I wondered what has been the most stressful situation that you found yourself in when you've been either delivering something for a client or yourself presenting?
Speaker 3:Okay, let me think. Probably quite a few to think, to think of and decide on the most.
Speaker 3:You've mentioned a couple, so yeah, I'm okay with situations where it's stressful for myself because I can ultimately still control it and the examples I gave in terms of going blank and the projector going and all those things I'm happy to deal with. It's when you do something for somebody else. That's when it becomes a higher stakes game, because it's not just about yourself. And we have probably had situations where, especially in the early days of sort of COVID, where everything had to shift online very quickly, all these events that were going to take place in person had to go online. So the kind of lead time was really short and also the I guess, guess the level of knowledge our customers had around how this was going to work was was quite low.
Speaker 3:We would we've been doing this before covid, obviously, but uh, trying to bring that that kind of our customers as an audience along with us in terms of knowing what was going to happen, um, and there is the probably situations where I can, hand on heart, say that I'm um, not as good as the team I've got around me in terms of producing and I know enough. But the situation where you're responsible for a live stream for a customer who's paying for the service, and it has to be perfect, I find incredibly stressful. Who's paying for the service, and it has to be perfect. I find incredibly stressful and I'm very happy that you know everybody in this room who's sitting here helping me record this with our conversation and delivering these events, know so much more than I do on this, because even just being in the room, I find stressful. And there's been times when I've produced events when I know I can do it and I know how it works and all that's fine, but the actual act of doing it is incredibly stressful and I don't think that will ever go away.
Speaker 3:And, to the point, my wife used to be on TV and on the radio and she would say come in, come in, while she was on some advertising thing, and I would stand there, you know, daring not to say anything, and she went don't worry, we're not, we're not online. I said I know, but you know what happens if you press the wrong button. You know it's. It's that sort of that fear of, yeah, um, of something going wrong. So I find that incredibly stressful.
Speaker 3:Um, not so much, to probably speak in bit, although I'm sure 10 years ago that I would have felt differently. But looking back now I think that's probably not as stressful. And the environment, where you're doing something for somebody else, um, and it is, you know, important to them, clearly, um, I find that most stressful and and to the point that, um, I recommend most of the time that, um, I'm not the on the cold face, um, and those, those people who know much more about it and I do do that, yeah, but even being in the room at the same time, I just find uncomfortable, just because that's, I don't know, there's something in me yeah, yeah, it's the things that are outside of your control, aren't they?
Speaker 1:and it's usually something external that you have no control over and that can really be stressful, yeah, yeah. So yeah, I have a quite an amusing thing that happened to me quite recently actually, which I think will live with me forever, which was um. So I deliver courses for a program called scale up scotland, which is funded by sir tom hunter, who's a well-known entrepreneur up here and in the uk, and the courses are hosted at his castle called Blair Castle in Ayrshire, blair Estate, and the latest cohort who came to the program, everybody was invited for an afternoon and then there was a sleepover at the castle and nice dinner, and then I was running the following day's course and there were 12 scaling up entrepreneurs on the course and so they'd invited me to stay. Then I thought that's absolutely lovely it's a beautiful, beautiful big castle and arrived on the wednesday night, shown to this amazing room, four poster bed had a drawing room and a beautiful ensuite bathroom, and the hilarious thing is I sent a video to my husband saying and I was showing him the room going I'm going to have the most amazing night's sleep tonight. This is the most awesome place bedroom, had a really nice dinner with all the group, had some drinks and at 10 o'clock I was like, right, I'm going to go off to my lovely big four-poster bed and have a dreamy sleep all night. And, as I was saying goodnight, my client who's running the whole thing said by the way, the room you're sleeping in is haunted. And I was like you are joking, aren't you? And he just looked at me and then went yeah, yeah, don't worry, I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding. And I walked out of the room and thought he's not joking, he's not joking. And some of the other group who were there heard all this, saw it all and kind of went um night. I go off to my room and then I pick up this leaflet that's there because it's used for corporate entertaining everything, and there is a photo of the room that I am in on this leaflet. That's there because it's used for corporate entertaining everything. And there is a photo of the room that I am in on this leaflet and it's talking about lady so-and-so who died.
Speaker 1:And all this and I didn't sleep a wink all night in anticipation of this potential ghost that might come in, and I remember just thinking I've got to deliver for a day with 12 people. I've got so much that I need to facilitate in this day Went to breakfast and everybody was looking, waiting for me to come and go. What happened? And I didn't see anything. Nothing happened. But I literally slept for about half an hour over that whole night. Over that whole night and but. But everyone found it was really amusing because I was saying to everybody I am the adrenaline is flying in me today because I've had no, and this is what happens to us, this is what can happen, something outside your control. But you know, I had the prep in place, I know what I'm doing, I know how to deliver when I'm feeling stressed, and so it was all fine. But yeah, oh it's unforgettable.
Speaker 3:on sleep and insomnia um with dr lindsey browning, and she was talking about a similar situation to what you described. I think it was in a post that she'd shared on linkedin um where she said you know anybody who's going through gcse's or a levels um?
Speaker 3:yeah don't worry if you don't sleep, if you can't, if you're too nervous to sleep, that's totally fine, because you'll have done all your preparation, just as you said beforehand. You know, even on a bad day you know this stuff. And even if you don't sleep, if you sleep two, three, four hours and you are tired, that's totally fine, you will still know everything you've prepared for. So don't worry about, don't get yourself wound up about not sleeping, even if you don't sleep at all, you'll still be totally fine.
Speaker 3:Yes, you'll be tired while you're doing it, but you're okay.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's interesting, interesting parallel I just remember feeling like I had sort of matchsticks in my eyes all day, and but it was. It was great because in a way I suppose it was coming back to that thing of how do you recover from stuff or striving for perfection or stuff. The whole group knew that I had had no sleep, they all knew what happened and the stories had been recalled at breakfast, of the stories of the hauntings that happened in the past. Um, so they all knew what situation was in and and so it was a. Really it was quite funny. You know, we all had a bit of a laugh about it and they were all very understanding and I but I was fine, but it was one of those. Yeah, wow, okay, it's happening to me and I'm delivering a course about presentations, a masterclass in presentation skills.
Speaker 1:Anyway, the second question I wanted to ask you. So this came to me after watching a really great film recently that's called About Time. It's a Richard Curtis film and I only came across it recently, but it got me thinking If you could travel back in time to any period of your life, either professionally or personally, which moment, day, week or year would you go to and would you do anything differently?
Speaker 3:Okay. So if I could travel back in time to any moment. And is it reliving that moment or is it starting life again at that moment?
Speaker 1:just what would you do in that moment or it could be a period of time in your life. What would you do differently if you were able to change it?
Speaker 3:good question and it could be to do with work or it could be a personal experience yeah, I think there have been a few moments, a couple of moments, where somebody told me not to take a particular job and I thought I knew better and I ignored their advice.
Speaker 3:And if I could go back in time, knowing what I know now, having done it twice, that mistake and not listened to somebody, I would probably go back to that moment in time and take the other path. But I say that with a caveat, because that decision ultimately made me end up where I am now and had I taken a different path, I would be somewhere else and I might be just as happy or in the situation I'm in. But I think I like where I've ended up and I probably wouldn't have ended up there if I'd not done that back then. So in a way, I think, would I go back and change it? Seeing where we are now, I don't think it would have changed anything fundamentally in terms of I still would have met my wife and all of that that. That happened before, um, but yeah, I don't know. But yeah, those are the situations where I think I probably would have done that differently had I known better or had I listened to somebody else, but then I wouldn't, I wouldn't be where I am now.
Speaker 1:So and I probably would have started started the company that I started. So it'll be a very different life then. Cool, what about you? Yeah, so I had two for this. I thought of it on a personal level and a professional level. So on a personal level, I would go back to my time at university and I'd have used much. I'd have made much better use of my holidays at uni and travelled more.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:Because I ended up working during the holidays and saving up for then being at uni and I wish that I'd just got a job whilst I was at uni to save up to then travel during all the holidays, because you get massive long holidays at university and I've always looked back and thought you know, that's something I'll talk to my kids about and say you've got to make the most of that time because you're young, free and independent and just travel. You know, my husband traveled a lot during his uni holidays, so I often sort of listen with envy of what he talks about. I should have done that. And then, on a professional level, I'd go back to my late 20s when I set up this business and I was so I don't know why I was so determined to just do it all on my own and I think I felt like I needed to know all the answers and to do it on my own and I think if I could go back and do it again. Or what I say to other people now is get help, ask, you know, get advisors, get mentors, go and get as much help as you can.
Speaker 1:People are always happy to offer help, aren't they? And just I just wish I'd made better use of my network of you know, I think I was probably too proud to to get more support and help in that way and I just carried it on in my own way. But yeah, so I think that's the other thing. But the interesting thing about it's a brilliant film and it keeps going back to. The guy in the film is able to keep going back, rewinding and changing a situation and then changing the direction of his life, but of course, towards the end he realizes that he should just be a bit more present in what he's doing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting thought. Um, yeah, thanks, thanks for those answers, uh, the questions and the answers, um, and and sharing, sharing a bit about your own, your own life there as well. Um, you know, it's, it's nice to kind of hear those kind of things and go beyond the interview and beyond the interviewee, so I appreciate that. Thank you very much. And the thing you mentioned there we seem to have loads of segues in this conversation but talking about mentoring and doing that earlier, asking for help, we, of course, have the other episode as well with Chelsea Baker about mentoring, where she talks about that and asking for help or offering help if you feel that actually you can help others who are in that similar situation as well.
Speaker 3:But, Marion, this has been a really fun and interesting and insightful conversation. I really appreciate you joining us and, of course, for our audience as well. Thank you so much for listening to this. We have plenty more episodes. We've referenced quite a few of them on this particular episode as well, so check out those as well. We'd love for you to like this episode, subscribe it, share it, grow and help us share this information that we have from these wonderful speakers and guests as well.
Speaker 1:So thank you very much again and it's been a pleasure having you. Thank you so much for having me, lev. It was really really brilliant having this conversation with you. There's so many different places you can go with all this. There's so much more to learn about it, but I really enjoyed spending this time with you and having the chat, so thank you. Thank you very much, really enjoyed spending this time with you and having the chat, so thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you very much.
Speaker 2:Thank you for joining us on this podcast. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did For other interesting topics. Go to your favourite podcast platform or watch the video versions on YouTube. Just search for the Virtually Anything Goes podcast. See you next time.
