Navigating Romantic Life with a Heart Condition: Insights from Dr. Corinne Smorra

What happens when your heart condition becomes part of your dating narrative? Today on Heart to Heart with Anna, we welcome back Dr. Corinne Smorra, a psychotherapist and adult living with congenital heart defects (CHD). Dr. Smorra opens up about her personal journey with truncus arteriosus and sheds light on the myths and misconceptions about dating with CHD. From her early days to becoming a psychotherapist, Corinne's experiences have inspired her to create a support group dedicated to helping others navigate dating without allowing their condition to overshadow their lives. Listen in as she shares practical advice on how to let your condition emerge organically in conversations, ensuring it doesn’t dominate the narrative from the start.

The challenges of social isolation, especially during the COVID-19 pandemic, are examined through the lens of those with CHD. We discuss the similarities between the social experiences of individuals with CHD and retired individuals, underscoring the importance of building connections beyond traditional work and school environments. Discover how modern technology like FaceTime, instant messaging, and Zoom can be leveraged to maintain relationships without physical strain. Energy management and setting specific times for social activities are crucial for avoiding burnout, and we provide tips on balancing social life and health seamlessly.

Our conversation goes further to address the evolving landscape of dating, highlighting the transition from close-knit community connections to today's broader but sometimes isolating online experiences. Dr. Smorra’s virtual support group offers a haven for those navigating the dating world with CHD, covering topics like handling insecurities about visible scars and inclusivity for the LGBTQ community. Through role-playing and peer support, this group provides practical tools and emotional backing for everyone involved. Tune in for an insightful discussion on forming genuine connections, seeking inclusivity, and finding support within the CHD community.

Link mentioned in this episode:
Dr. Corinne Smorra's website: https://www.heartandmindcounseling.com

Dr. Corinne Smorra's previous Heart to Heart with Anna episode: https://www.buzzsprout.com/62761/11148131

Become a subscriber: https://www.buzzsprout.com/62761/support

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:50

What is holding you up from getting out and meeting people? And when you do meet people, what are you saying about yourself? Welcome to Heart to Heart with Anna. I am Anna Jaworski and the mother of an adult with a single ventricle heart. That's the reason I am the host of your program and I'm delighted today to talk to a returning guest, dr Cruins-Mora. She wrote the foreword for my book, the Heart of a Heart Warrior and as a psychotherapist and an adult with a congenital heart defect, I knew she had so much to offer my readers.

Speaker 1: 1:22

Corinne was born with a patent ductus arteriosus and she had a pulmonary artery banding as an infant and open heart surgery at five years of age. Corinne was born in the 1970s with her congenital heart defect and she certainly defied the odds. In addition to graduating from college, corinne is married and now owns her own psychotherapy practice where she treats people with psychosocial issues of congenital heart disease and those impacted by a loved one with CHD. Today we'll be talking to Dr Smora about dating and CHD, and she has a very special group that she's formulating. So welcome back to Heart to Heart with Anna Karin. Hi, anna, it's nice to see you. Actually, I noticed you said I was with the patent doctors. I think that's what they thought when I was first born, but it was actually truncus arteriosus. So I was born with three valves instead of four. Oh wow, so a much more involved condition than what you originally thought, wow. Well then that just makes you even more of a heart warrior, doesn't it? I just want to be clear, because truncus arteriosus is not that common, and especially back in the seventies. So there are few of us around. So the ones that do have truncus arteriosus now, I just want to let them know there's someone else out there, hopefully older than they are and doing very well, which is exciting.

Speaker 1: 2:48

Well, I had a chance to talk to your mother recently and I just want to tell you what a delight it was to talk to her, and she's the one who told me about your diagnosis and the treatment for your heart defects. But I'm sure back then they just probably weren't even able to really explain it to her, because maybe they did it now I know my child was born in the 90s and they changed her diagnosis. I think things are ever evolving and the more they refine the diagnostic equipment and their tests are able to be a little bit more specific with the diagnoses and they're able to tell us more, don't you think I do? I think what happened is when she was in Washington DC, where I was first born, at Sibley and moving around to Georgetown between the hospitals it switched. But my understanding is they banded my pulmonary arteries right away. But once they got more into it they realized it was truncal arteriosus and especially when I was five years old, it was definitely diagnosed at that point. But I think initially they didn't know and they were guessing if that's what it was. But once they were able to find some specialists they were able to pinpoint it better.

Speaker 1: 4:01

So obviously being born with a congenital heart defect played a significant role in your life. Do you think that being born with a CHD actually influenced your decision to become a psychotherapist? Absolutely, because what happened is, as I struggled with all the things everyone struggles with in daily life along with the congenital heart disease, finding a therapist that understood the layers that added to the issues, or I should say the extra rocks in your backpack, was extremely difficult. And then, as I got older and navigating my career in my 40s, I called Adult Congenital Heart Association and asked them how many therapists there were in the US that specialized in it, and at that time they gave me two names Dr Adrienne Kovacs, up in Toronto, and then she had gone to Oregon, and then Dr Jamie Jackson, who is in Cincinnati, I believe. So those were the two and that was it that they knew of at that time.

Speaker 1: 5:07

Now, as I've gotten into it, I see there's more of us. Now as I've gotten into it, I see there's more of us. There's Tracy LeBecky, up in Connecticut, but it was pretty small. Even now it's very small. Sure, yeah, it is still just a handful of people. When I really think about it, there might be five that actually have congenital heart disease and are therapists that specialize. Right, right, dr Smora, can you tell me a little bit about why you're starting a special group for dating and people in the CHD community? Yes, I wanted to start this group because I want to prevent CHD from being a barrier to dating and I want to help those that are finding it is a barrier in their mind to dating to overcome it and be able to go out and have a good time and enjoy life and be able to date. We know that there are definitely obstacles and myths that surround living with a CHD and dating. So let's talk about some of those myths and obstacles that people with congenital heart defects face in the dating sphere.

Speaker 1: 6:13

Absolutely what I'm noticing is this overwhelming desire to go on a first date and just kind of lay it out there and I encourage clients to just wait a minute there on that, because there's so much to you aside from your congenital heart disease. I'm not saying to conceal it by any means, but there's also a way to have it come about organically because it isn't entirely who you are. So you don't think that that's something on a first date. You should say oh, by the way, I've had three open heart surgeries. You don't need to say that to somebody, unless it comes out organically and the person across the table from you can really process it. I look at my clients that are men. Men are wearing with someone across from you.

Speaker 1: 7:02

Do you really think she's going to sit there and say I had breast cancer and my breasts are implants on a first date? Probably not. No, if they did, that would be unusual. So why would you sit there and talk about congenital heart disease? I see it as a similar thought process, right Like I broke my arm when I was seven. I don't recall telling anybody I dated. Oh, by the way, I had surgery on my arm. I mean, I guess if they had seen my scar and they had said, oh, what happened there, then I would do it. But, like you said, that's when it happens organically. So one of the first myths or obstacles you're saying is that you do not have to lay it all out on the first date, and I think that's probably going to be a relief for some people to hear.

Speaker 1: 7:53

Now, if somebody sees the scar and asks about it, then how much in depth should you get on a first date? That's another thing, too is you don't really have to get in depth. Keep in mind you don't owe anyone anything, right? I mean, let's go to the concept of dating. You're really going out to have a good time, right? You're going out to see if this person is someone you can have fun with, or you're just out having a good time? This isn't an interview for a relationship, right? This isn't an interview for a marriage contract, for a long-term relationship. It's like is this person fun?

Speaker 1: 8:37

And it all depends, too, on your comfort level, right? Do you wear a v-neck or not? Depending on your comfort level, maybe you don't really wear something that's a v-neck so it doesn't come up. Or if you're fine with it and you're comfortable saying, yes, I had some surgery and you want to just stop there, you can do that too, and you might not even be conscious of what you throw on to go out. Right, you might pick out I want to wear that dress and you're not going to worry about what it is. Or you're not going to worry if you're a guy and your shirt goes open and it's visible, because either the person is going to ask or they won't. Sometimes they may not even know, sure, and you can always say, oh, I had some surgery, it's too long to get into right now, or I'm not really comfortable getting into it right now.

Speaker 1: 9:27

Right, I don't think there's a problem with deflecting a question like that, especially on a first date. But even on the second or third date you're really just dating to know the person and it's not where you have to give a physical history. I don't think that's really appropriate. When you're just getting to know somebody First, you want to know if you even like them, but that's really detailed information. When you're talking as specific as your heart, yeah, at first you're really more interested to find out what kind of person they are, what their hobbies or interests, even if you have anything in common. Right, right, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 10:04

I've had a number of people who have been on my program before who they and their spouse both have a heart defect. How common is it in the CHD community for people to find one another and date, maybe because they each have a heart defect? I have not seen anything like that. Two things you bring to mind. One version would all that big thing so much easier, but on the other hand, it can also make it much more difficult.

Speaker 1: 10:34

I think either way, there's your pros and your cons To seek out someone because they have a CHD. I don't know. I mean, we all are so different. Chd doesn't say, oh, we're going to only occur with this type of person who has this kind of interest in this kind of thing. As I've worked with so many clients, everyone has such unique interests and unique views to think that that physical part of you is going to be an alignment may not match as well as you think it would. And it's more important to find somebody who maybe you share the same religion, you both like the same kind of music, you are in the same profession or something like that. That is a different kind of interest. Perhaps something that you equip with them outside of having aD would be helpful.

Speaker 1: 11:33

Yeah, yeah, in your experience, has dating and other opportunities changed for those who are living with CHD? That's one of the reasons why I want to do the group we're going to start up here, because my sense is are people creating self-oppression because of it and are they creating a self-disadvantage for it? Well, maybe I should set off for this person because of my CHD, or oh well, there'll be no one else that'll be interested in me, so I might as well just date this person and see where this goes. That could be a problem because you could end up in a really difficult situation that may not be so great for you. So we have to keep in mind that, although we have CHD, we need to pursue relationships and date people that we find are going to be beneficial to us, not someone that will be good enough because we aren't good enough in our mind.

Speaker 1: 13:11

So, corinne, right before we went to break, you said something about group, that you're starting a group. Let's talk about that, because you are a psychotherapist, you do specialize in working with people with CHD. Let's talk about this new group that you want to start. Absolutely, I would like to start a group and it's in the plans you can see on our website. We have the information up on it. I'm licensed in 16 states, so we'll have it for those who live in those 16 states. It's going to be for those that are 18 and over, because we're going to talk about everything that comes with dating and dating whoever you are interested in dating. So this isn't just going to be heterosexual. Be if you're lesbian, gay, lgbtq, lgbtq+, that will be in the group Because, honestly, dating's dating. You're still running through the same hurdles, no matter who that person you're seeking out to be a partner.

Speaker 1: 14:11

I'm seeing a lot of things focus on the relationship aspect of it, but when it comes to getting out there and doing the in the trenches of actually dating and going out and meeting others and coping with the isolation that comes with PhD and not being able to date as frequently as others do because it is exhausting, those are the things I want to talk about in the group and I want to have the ability to people to bring their experiences to the group and talk about them as well, so there can be some mutual benefit and hear that others are having the same experience, so they can be validated in what they're experiencing as well. So this isn't like a matchmaking group. This is just a group where people who have CHD can come and they can say, oh my goodness, I went on this first date and it was a disaster. And they can talk to you and you can guide them through that and what they can do on the next date if there's going to be a next date with that person or on their next first date, so that they don't have the same kind of problems. And it will be a chance for other people to listen to the kinds of problems that people with CHD are having when they're dating, so that they can learn from that experience too, right, yes, and the other thing I want to focus on, too, is the mindset when you go out on the date, or the mindset when you are dating, because that's so much of a part of it as well. It when you are doing, because that's so much of a part of it as well. If you think you're used goods, then you're going to come across with that kind of perception and it'll be difficult for you. Sure, Sure, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 15:51

I know that I've talked to people in the past who have said to me I'm so lonely. They do live a very isolated life. Their heart defect is so severe. They can't work full time. They can't go to school full time, especially since the pandemic. Even getting out and going to functions like church may be something they're not comfortable with. How can people meet other people? That is true. And again, that comes to what is holding you up from getting out and meeting people. And when you do meet people, what are you saying about yourself? Because there are people that aren't working and they don't go to school. But we look at the people that are 65 and up, that are retired. What do they do? How do they function? They go out and date. They don't go out much. Their energy is draining in some regards. They don't go to school, they don't work, yet they can manage to go out and find ways to socialize.

Speaker 1: 16:51

How do we get it so that you are actually doing something and not limiting yourself in your head as to why you're not going out and dating or you're not going out and meeting people? If you go out and say I'm retired or I don't work. What's the difference? Does that make you any less of a person? You still have hobbies. You still have interest. Everyone's goal in life is to get to a point where you don't have to work and you can pursue all your hobbies and address. So let's focus on that and less on oh, I don't work and I don't go to school. There's so much more to life and you as a person than those two things.

Speaker 1: 17:44

It sounds to me like this group therapy session is not just about dating, but on finding value in yourself, finding value in your life and maybe helping you redefine what you want out of your life. One of the things when it comes to dating is if you don't have value in yourself or understand who you are and where you're going. That makes it difficult too, Because how do you know if someone's an appropriate match? Yeah, most people that I meet with CHD are able to at least work part-time, are able to at least go to school part-time. Many of them do work full-time. Some of them even work full-time and go to school part-time, which is pretty amazing. So we are seeing so much better outcomes with the surgical procedures. Nowadays, people are living longer. They're living healthier lives. What's the biggest obstacle they have when it comes to dating.

Speaker 1: 18:27

I think when you're doing all these things, you're going to school and you're working, no matter if you're part-time or full-time. That's a lot of energy to put out there to even just get yourself functioning. So you get home and you're exhausted and the thought of trying to go out there to even just get yourself functioning. So you get home and you're exhausted and the thought of trying to go out and socialize is pretty difficult and overwhelming. You see people that have fully functioning hearts that are impacted and they can go to work on Thursday, go out, stay out till 10, 11 o'clock at night, have a couple of drinks and get back up and go to work Friday morning without any issue. They're not feeling it.

Speaker 1: 19:04

The person with CHD is half wiped out and just can barely make it through the workday, and then Friday night is nevermind, right, because they're so exhausted from what they've done all week long. Exactly. So that's where that isolation comes in, right? You have someone that has pretty much used up and expended their energy and then the thought of going out and dating. They're just overwhelmed. They don't want to be doing it and they've already made so many efforts to do it to no avail. So it becomes a cycle of I just don't want to bother, but I'm lonely, instead of hating yourself. Right, okay, you want to go out and date. Then Saturday night, that's your date night, or Friday night, but you don't have to date during the week and have five dates a week to find someone you can be more permanent with, who you meet up with. Right, I had a completely functional heart and I wasn't dating five days a week when I was a young person. Wow, I can't even imagine dating five days a week because I was so busy going to school and working. Things were different when I was dating. Now it seems a little bit easier. You can still have connection without going on a physical date. You can FaceTime with somebody, you can use instant messenger, you can Snapchat.

Speaker 1: 20:29

It would seem to me that now would be an easier time, in some ways, for people to get to know somebody with CHD without overextending themselves physically. Is that something that you think you'll talk about in groups? Most definitely, because there's advantages and there's pitfalls for that too. Right, you really want to be able to get to see someone in person to some degree and meet them. So, yes, facetime or Zoom is helpful, especially during the week, and you want to see if this is someone you want to spend a Saturday night with or not.

Speaker 1: 21:03

But sometimes if there's overly texting and overly not in-person connection, then it's like what happens when you start meeting in person it gets a little awkward doing things. Or are there people out there that just want to have what I call a texting relationship? All they want to do is text and that's very common. They don't want to ever meet. Is it Really People just want to text? They don't actually want to get together physically. You know people that'll be texting multiple people all the time. Yes, definitely. So I do caution clients when I see that they're spending all this time and having these long, drawn out text exchanges and it's interrupting their work day. At some point you have to make sure you live your life and if this person isn't serious about meeting up with you or doing things with you, then that might not be a geographically desirable person. You, then that might not be a geographically desirable person.

Speaker 1: 22:03

Corinne, I think most people have no clue that CHD happens, especially somebody like you. You look like a vibrant young woman. Nobody would guess just by looking at you that you have a CHD, what is it that you wish everybody knew? I think one of the things is usually when you're dating, you're pretty healthy, you're able to go out, you're able to go see someone and meet someone and talk and you're able to have a snippet of normalcy, and that is one of the advantages of this disease versus some of the others.

Speaker 1: 22:36

If you're like missing a limb or something like that is, you have those moments that you are actually presenting and functioning and someone is perceiving you as a normal, functioning person, right. So then you will explain to someone what CHD is and they're like okay, but what they're seeing in front of you right now is during one of the periods of time that you aren't having any issues, you aren't having any challenges. So they're like okay, I'm in, I understand, I can be a supportive partner to you, but the truth of the matter is they have no idea what is coming when you pass an intervention or a complication or something goes down and it's like trial by fire and I don't think people understand that aspect to it. Even though someone's like oh, I'm in, I can help you, I'll be supportive, you don't know what that person is going to be like until it actually happened, and especially from the CHD perspective. You can't expect that everyone's going to help you like your mom did or your caregiver when you're a young child, because that's just not realistic. You have to understand that putting on a future partner the ability for them to help you and care for you when you need it in the way that a parent or a sibling did as you grew up, is really not realistic.

Speaker 1: 24:12

It's interesting because I've had a lot of people talk to me over the 10, almost 11 years that I've been podcasting and I've had especially young men it seems to me more often young men than young women who tell me they would like to date, but they don't want to put this on anyone else. They don't think any woman could handle what it is that they have. They don't know that they want to be a parent because they don't know if they're going to be around long enough to be there for their child. And it seems to me like a lot of people end up putting a lot of limitations on themselves that they're right. Nobody may be able to do all of that at first, but I don't think that that's what dating is for.

Speaker 1: 24:54

Dating first is just to get you out to meet with people, to be social and to help you increase your influence of friends. Is that right? Or do you think that the way they're thinking that there is some justification to that, my sense would be they're kind of putting the cart before the horse. They're assuming all these things. But is that the reality of it? Right? Even though you have a CHD? Okay, but what happens if that person you like and want to be in a relationship with, but you hold yourself back because of the potential downfalls or pitfalls? Right?

Speaker 1: 25:37

And then how many people do we know that go out and they date someone that's perfectly healthy and all of a sudden, five years of relationship, oh my gosh, they have some form of other chronic illness that's terminal. Yeah, and here you are, the CHD-er, cooking along, no problems. You're on track to have a full life. You might have some hiccups in between, but you certainly aren't terminal like someone else could be. That presented as perfectly normal without any issue. So there's no guarantee with anything. No, there aren't.

Speaker 1: 26:12

I think that kind of goes back to again what are you thinking that that person is going to take on right when you get into a relationship with them? So maybe we need to talk more about how you're going to have more self-efficacy and being able to emotionally regulate and take on things yourself and understand what's coming up in the future for you. And yes, your person may be there and they would be there even if someone else they were in a relationship with had a chronic illness pop up, right. So there is no difference in that regard. You just kind of know the cards dealt in your hand before someone else did. That's right, because as we get older, things happen, doesn't matter if you have a heart defect or not. Things start breaking, things start falling apart and we have other kinds of traumas. Start breaking, things start falling apart and we have other kinds of traumas. It's not just physical, but somebody you love may have been in a car accident, you may lose a parent. There are other kinds of trauma that we have to live with as well, and when you're dating, that's part of the scene too.

Speaker 1: 27:23

That's why, for me, it was important to be friends with the person I was dating. I didn't just want a physical attraction To me, it was much more important that I really liked that person. We could share interests in a variety of ways, not just one or two things. I married my best friend. That has its pitfalls and it has its advantages. The pitfall is that when you have a fight with them, you also fought with your best friend, yeah. But the advantage is that, yeah, I had a fight with my husband, but he is my best friend, so he gets more latitude.

Speaker 1: 28:06

So what advice do you have for somebody who maybe has allowed their CHD to limit who they would go out with or to even start dating at first? What's some advice you could give them, corinne, to maybe give themselves a break and enjoy their life? My advice would be to open up your mind and understand that you aren't so damaged, right? One of the things is someone with CHD pretty much lives close to the edge of a cliff that falls off the precip every day right. And then you have someone that's further back, that doesn't live so close to the edge every day and there's no guarantee that you're going to fall off that cliff right, there's someone that could be further back and all of a sudden get pushed right to the edge and fall off the limitation you have. You kind of just have your cards in your hand before anyone else does and you don't know the person sitting next to you that works, normal and healthy. They aren't going to get a card that could be much worse than any of the cards in your hand, could be much worse than any of the cards in your hand. So most of the time, you're disservicing yourself and someone else would have no issues with what you perceive are huge hurdles.

Speaker 1: 29:19

Well, dating has changed a lot in the last four decades, since I was actually out there, and it's so weird because it feels like the world has become so much smaller since we had the internet, and yet I feel we've lost a lot of intimacy that I had 40 years ago. I had my school friends, I had my church friends. I had a real sense of community that I feel a lot of people today don't have. Is this group going to be sort of a sense of community for your clients? I would like that to be. I'd like for them to be able to come to this group and be able to talk about their experiences and at least feel they're not so isolated as they're out there, going out and meeting people, and also to feel they had some sort of support that they can talk to about these things that perhaps their close friends might get tired of hearing about or might not even be able to relate to.

Speaker 1: 30:19

Right right, dating with a heart disease brings a whole other layer of how you feel about going on dates what you wear on dates if someone sees your scar, how you respond to it Right, and sometimes it might be in that person's mind, but how do we help that person overcome that mental hurdle they're experiencing that someone else doesn't even think twice about. So is this group only going to be for people who are actively dating, or will it also be for people who are maybe in their 20s or even 30s, who have never really dated before but figure that now is the time to do it? I would like it to be people that are 18 and over, because obviously I want to be able to talk about intimacy in it, because that is a huge part of it too. And if you haven't been dating and want to get back in the dating scene, yes, this is definitely for you. If you have been dating and you're frustrated, yes, this is for you. If you're dating but you're seeing someone now, but you what it's like to date again, it's for you, and it's going to be the kind of group that my sense is going to flesh itself out. I think some people are going to come in it. They're going to find it doesn't really work for them or what we talk about isn't really of interest to them and they may not come back or they may go in and out Kind of function as its own living group and we'll see where it goes.

Speaker 1: 31:56

And now, is this an in-person or a virtual group? Corinne, it's going to be virtual because I'm licensed in 16 states, so we'll be online using Google Meets and we'll have people from all over the country where I'm licensed in joining us. That means if someone's in New Jersey and someone's in Texas, they can both join and talk and hopefully creating some sort of community that you can bring these challenges to, even being able to talk about a first date. Should I wear a v-neck and I know this is a pretty basic issue, but should I wear a v-neck or should I wear a top that covers my scar? What do you think? And we're going to say well, how do you feel about that? Do you feel better in the v-neck outfit? And you can just say, yeah, I had a surgery, but let's talk about that another time. Will you give them a chance to do some role playing or actually practice some of these things Absolutely if they want, and also there'll be a chance for them to ask questions of each other and talk to each other as well, because a lot of times when you can get clarification from other people about what they're experiencing and how they reacted to the experience or how they handled it, that also provides a lot of information.

Speaker 1: 33:13

There's a lot of new dating sites out there that have come up in the past year or two. Also, one of the things is the dating sites can be regional as well. One dating site will work well in one market, one won't be so great in another market. I think even talking about those things and the experience and even tricks and tips like I don't really mention this, the HD in my profile, or I do I just want to clean it out right away. Sure, everybody has their own comfort level and that's one of the things that sounds to me like you're going to help people find where their comfort level is, and that's really important.

Speaker 1: 33:51

What about people in the LBGTQ community? Will you have a special group for them or will you just have everybody lumped in together? Right now, I'm going to have everyone together because, first of all, chd impacts all of us. So you're all looking for a relationship and the focus of dealing with the relationship is the CHD. I am not a LGBTQ professional as a counselor, but I'm a CHD counselor. So my sense would be, if someone wants a specific group for LGBTQ and dating and trans and dating, then my suggestion would be to go seek out those specific groups, because those are areas not in my scope.

Speaker 1: 34:39

I work with people in those populations, for sure, but I'm coming at it from a CHD perspective, at it from a CHD perspective. I look to them to help me understand what they're experiencing from an LGBTQ perspective, so I can help them. My sense is that acknowledging that is actually more helpful to a client than pretending I'm something I'm not. Yes, absolutely. They feel they can at least come and confide in me and tell me what their preference is, and then we can align to how to navigate their preferences, their beliefs and their experiences in that aspect and weave in the CHD with it.

Speaker 1: 35:23

Okay, so I'm sure the question that's popped into a lot of people's minds right now is where can I find out more and how expensive is this? You can go to our website, which is wwwheartmindcounselingcom and there is groups and you'll see that it's listed there. I accept Aetna, united Healthcare, blue Cross, blue Shield, the PPO insurance, and then in Michigan I have some VCN and Medicare, because it's not limit on age and if you do private pay it's $45. And, friends, if you're on your exercise bike or you're driving to work, don't worry about getting a piece of paper or writing anything down. I will have the link in the show notes and that's in the description of the show.

Speaker 1: 36:08

Well, dr Corinne Smora, this has just flown by. My time always flies by when I speak to you, but I'm so happy to know that there is something out there where people are acknowledging that dating and CHD might be a little bit different than dating with other conditions and that you're providing a helpful community where people can express their concerns in a safe environment. So thank you so much for coming on the program and sharing that with my listeners. I would like to give you a special thank you for your support and my work and also having me on your program. I truly really appreciate it. Oh well, you are more than welcome, friends. I think that this is something that is possibly going to revolutionize dating in the CHD community Check it out. I will have the link in the show notes, but that does conclude this episode of Heart to Heart with Anna. Thanks for listening today. Please consider leaving a review of our podcast or whatever app you're using to hear it. This helps others in the CHD community know about our podcast. And remember my friends, you are not alone.