Imagine being trapped in an identity that isn't your own, a child grappling with gender confusion, or an adolescent considering transition. This is the reality for many people today, and it's a struggle Kathy Grace Duncan, who once identified as a male, is intimately familiar with. This episode dives into Kathy's journey, from living as a man to rediscovering her identity as a woman, exploring the complexities of gender confusion and the transformation inspired by her encounter with the Holy Spirit.
In this conversation host Helen Todd and Kathy Grace Duncan discuss how the gender issues begin in early adulthood, the impact medical procedures to change gender could have on a person’s life, and the effective ways for the church to reach the people struggling with gender identity and sexual orientation.
At the end, they spotlight the Portland Fellowship program, a faith-based transitional program dedicated to those wrestling with their gender identity or sexuality. Kathy shares the significance of her five-year journey and how surrendering to God played a pivotal role in her transformation.
To connect with the program or with Kathy Grace Duncan, follow the links below:
https://www.portlandfellowship.com/
kathygrace@changedmovement.com
Thanks for listening! Visit our website rfwma.org and follow us on Facebook and Instagram!
Help us make more inspiring episodes: https://rfwma.org/give-support-the-podcast/
Imagine being trapped in an identity that isn't your own, a child grappling with gender confusion, or an adolescent considering transition. This is the reality for many people today, and it's a struggle Kathy Grace Duncan, who once identified as a male, is intimately familiar with. This episode dives into Kathy's journey, from living as a man to rediscovering her identity as a woman, exploring the complexities of gender confusion and the transformation inspired by her encounter with the Holy Spirit.
In this conversation host Helen Todd and Kathy Grace Duncan discuss how the gender issues begin in early adulthood, the impact medical procedures to change gender could have on a person’s life, and the effective ways for the church to reach the people struggling with gender identity and sexual orientation.
At the end, they spotlight the Portland Fellowship program, a faith-based transitional program dedicated to those wrestling with their gender identity or sexuality. Kathy shares the significance of her five-year journey and how surrendering to God played a pivotal role in her transformation.
To connect with the program or with Kathy Grace Duncan, follow the links below:
https://www.portlandfellowship.com/
kathygrace@changedmovement.com
Thanks for listening! Visit our website rfwma.org and follow us on Facebook and Instagram!
Help us make more inspiring episodes: https://rfwma.org/give-support-the-podcast/
What if you had a guide who could tell you how to bridge a gap between who you are today and who you are destined to be? What if, each week, you could hear a story of someone who has tried and succeeded, or perhaps tried and failed but learned something in the process? Limitless Spirit is a weekly podcast where host Helen Todd interviews guests about topics and personal stories on defining life's purpose, pursuing personal growth and developing a deeper faith in Christ.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to another episode of the Limitless Spirit podcast. After having been gone for almost a month on a mission to the southmost tip of Argentina, I was excited to do this interview on a topic that has been on my mind lately, and the topic is how should the Church reach effectively the transgender and homosexual communities with love and compassion, but also without compromising Christian beliefs and convictions? I could not have found a better person for this conversation than Kathy Grace Duncan, who longed to be a boy since childhood, underwent hormone treatments and lived as Keith for many years until she encountered God, confronted her brokenness and discovered her true identity. Her story is especially relevant because she came to church as Keith and for some time, the congregation was not aware of her secret. Whether you have a person in your life who struggles with gender identity or sexuality or perhaps this is you, your own struggle I encourage you to listen to this conversation to the very end. This is a story of courage, hope and Christ's boundless love that helps us uncover who we really are in him.
Speaker 2:Hello, kathy Grace, welcome to the Limitless Spirit Podcast. How are you today? I'm good, thank you. Where are you located right now? Are you in Portland, oregon?
Speaker 3:That's correct. Hometown Portland Oregon.
Speaker 2:Awesome, awesome. Well, let's jump into your story first. I was very excited when I found your story and it addresses the issues that we want to touch on. I will be honest, what inspired this whole interview was when I watched the movie Jesus Revolution. That is really a wonderful movie and it was very inspiring and I was reminded of how the heroes of this movie really captured the struggle of their generation, which made me think what is the struggle of our generation? And that brought to my mind that probably the hippies of the 70s to who are the people that would be comparable to the hippie movement of the 70s would be the people who struggle with gender confusion or sexual orientation today, and it made me think that the church today is really not doing enough or maybe is not equipped to meet the need of this generation. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3:Well, I think the church is about 40 years behind and I think it started, as you know, back in the day. It's like we don't know what to do and they're sinners, so let's reject them, you know, let's tell them you're not welcome here. And then they began to realize, well, that's not the approach, so let's just love them. So then, in just loving them, they became over-affirming, which they allowed the gay identity, trans identity into the church and didn't require change. And Jesus being Jesus, he's like yes, I love you no matter what, but I love you too much to leave you here, and that was true in my own life. You know he was like you're living as a man, but I want you to be who I created you to be, and I think the church needs to come alongside those people, for sure, without compromising the truth.
Speaker 3:One of the things that I needed from the church is I needed a place that was safe, where I could go and I could just be and figure stuff out. Now, yes, I needed people to come around me and I needed truth, but the most important thing was that, even though you looked at the outside that was screaming, you know truth. I need truth because I'm living in this deception. My heart was screaming, I need help.
Speaker 3:And so it's coming alongside, loving them first and allowing them to open their heart and say okay, now I'm ready for you to speak truth, because what I've watched is we approach them with well, you're kind of a leper, but I'm not going to allow you to stay in this leper state, so I'm going to give you truth. And they're like no, no, no, no, no, no. I want to know that you care about me, I want to know that I'm loved, and that's you know. That's how friendships start, is we come to a common ground, we get to know each other and then if that person says to you I think I want to be your friend, then they begin to open their heart and you get that opportunity to speak truth into those places that are that need truth. So it's about relationship and that's how Jesus approaches. Everything is about relationship. So if I don't have relationship with them, I can't speak truth.
Speaker 2:This is interesting and it kind of addresses the conversation that I had with my friends, who were very well-meaning individuals, and this was a conversation where we were trying to figure out how would we, what would be the right and proper way to reach out, and hopefully our conversation towards the end is going to answer these questions. But before we get there, I want to talk about you personally. So how did your journey begin? Or, a better question, I guess, where did your struggle begin?
Speaker 3:Sure, mine started way before kindergarten. So, like the ages of three and four, I began to struggle with wanting to be a boy. I believed I was born into the wrong body and I felt that I should have been a boy. So I struggled continually. I would ride my tricycle over to my girlfriend's house to pick her up before we were going to get married, and this was way before kindergarten, and kindergarten here starts at like five. But yet I knew that that wasn't normal. So I kept it a secret and I knew my parents wouldn't agree. How I knew that, I don't know. It was just, you know, intuition, I guess maybe what do you think was the cause of that?
Speaker 2:Because I mean, I guess there is a debate whether it's a psychological condition or a biological condition. But looking back, what do you think? Was there some outward influences that made you feel that way, or you literally don't have an explanation for that?
Speaker 3:Well, I don't believe that you're born that way. I believe you know they say nature versus nurture and I tend to lean on the nurture side. And the reason I do is because my home life was dysfunctional. You know, I watched my dad be verbally and emotionally abusive to my mom and I watched my mom being a victim. Now, at that young age, at that tender age, you know my mom is supposed to be my role model and I'm looking at that going. I don't want to be a victim and I don't want to succumb to this abuse. But since I feel like I'm a man I don't want to be that man that I see my dad.
Speaker 3:So I made this vow at a very early age that I'm going to be the man my dad is not, and I also took away three lies. You know that women are weak, women are hated and women are vulnerable and I don't want to grow up and be that either. So you know, and if you look at it, from ages zero to five, the child is pretty much in the home, you know, the whole time. So they're surrounded by this atmosphere and, yeah, there's parents who love. But there's something within the child there's a perception like I had a perception that it's not safe to be a woman. You know, if I grow up and I'm going to be hated, you know I'm going to be taken advantage of. You know I'm going to be weak and I don't want to be that. So it's better to be a man. You see the opposite sex as being better and safer, and so that's why I believe that's what drove me to want to be a man.
Speaker 3:And at you know, between the ages of 10 and 12, I was molested by a family member, and so that really cemented in those three lies that women are weak, hated and vulnerable. Because if those weren't true, then why is this happening to me? And I also had a little brother come along that was adored by my dad, which told me that again to be you know. You know I have the affirmation that I need to be a boy because, see, my dad now adores my brother and he kind of doesn't pay any attention to me, and it must be because I'm a girl. So all these lies are in there, you know, creating a belief system, and from there I'm acting out on this belief system. This is in order for me to be safe and to be lovable, to have value. I have to be a boy because all these other things are telling me it's bad to be a girl.
Speaker 2:So would you say that for the parents of a child who is struggling with gender issues, that puts an enormous responsibility on them, and sometimes maybe it's not within the household that the situation happens. Do you think that parents who notice these tendencies in their child they need to investigate deeper whether there was a traumatic event in their child's life or you know something that they're not aware of that is causing that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would agree with that because I did have a friend outside the family that was a boy and he encouraged me becoming a boy. So there definitely can be outside influences as well as outside trauma, and a lot of it is sexual trauma, and I don't mean necessarily rape or molestation, but it could be something as easy as exposing them to pornography, you know, seeing images that they shouldn't be seeing at such a tender age. You know, because between zero and eight is like the informative years and that's where you begin to get shaped and so, yes, and then going to school, it's taught in schools now. Comprehensive sex ed teaches you who are you, and is that really true? And they're teaching a whole lot of other things to you that are very inappropriate at a very young age like that, because they just don't have the tools to understand who they are. So part of the home life is for them to be shaped as far as who they are and their identity.
Speaker 3:Now, parents see my child wants to play with dolls. Sometimes that's okay because you know boys tend to be curious about that. Girls tend to be curious about wanting to be a boy, and then they reach a certain age and they're like I don't want to be that. You know, I like being a girl. I just I had a friend who had a neighbor. That's like we're really concerned about our neighbor because she plays. She comes over and plays with my son and she just says she wants to be a boy.
Speaker 3:Well, once she reached like age 16, she's like no, I don't want to be a boy, I really like being a girl. And so to degree there is a certain tomboyishness and they do grow out of that. But I think they grow out of that because they're still at home, they're still identified and affirmed as who they are, as a boy or a girl, as a son or a daughter, and they know that they're loved and for whatever reason that opposite sex looks good because maybe they have it easier or whatever the interpretation is, but usually, left alone, they grow out of that.
Speaker 2:And, of course, if they're being reinforced in school, you know that it is okay to change your gender, that it is normal or acceptable. That doesn't help either, probably, for them to be able to step out of that. So that started at a young age. And then what happened next?
Speaker 3:So, you know, I went through school struggling privately, fantasizing about having girlfriends. Finally, at the age of 19, I was desperate and the self-hatred was so deep that I'm like I got it. Get out of this body. I got to start living as a man and be who I really believed I was. So, at the age of 19, I moved out from the house, started taking hormones, changed my name and started to live as a man and I thought I had arrived. I thought this is it. I'm finally who I am supposed to be.
Speaker 2:So did that make you happy.
Speaker 3:It did for a short term. I didn't realize the depression that I had At a very early age. I understood that emotions were dangerous and so I detached from that. So I lived a lot of my life just thinking logically. So logically, I feel this way, so logically, this is who I'm supposed to be and I'll do these things to help me to live that life.
Speaker 3:And so I didn't really understand the pain that I was in and the decision to make to live as a man, in making that was driven by pain. It was driven by the trauma and all those experiences telling me that I'm bad, I'm trying to escape that and I wanted to be safe. And, as far as I could tell, I thought I was. And I lived that way for 11 years, dating women and that type of thing, and not dating women. You know, I didn't become a man so I could date women. I dated them. I lived as a man so I could be safe and I thought that was the way to live for 11 years, taking hormones, going to church as a man, portraying as a man, never telling anybody. You know that I was a woman. I just wanted to have a normal life. That was my whole goal to have a normal life as a man and to live that way, and I thought that would be happy ever after.
Speaker 2:So and I apologize in advance for maybe my ignorance, but were you sexually attracted to women or you just wanted to be, to have the identity of a man? And is there a difference, then, you know, between homosexuality and gender confusion?
Speaker 3:It's a great question. I would say yes to your yes to both questions. Yes, I was sexually attracted to women and, yes, I just wanted to be a man and I believed that, living as a man, I was heterosexual and I honestly believe that being gay was wrong.
Speaker 3:I didn't want to be gay, I wanted to be, identified as a man and I believe the reason why I had the attraction for women is because of the nurturing I lacked growing up and so I was seeking that nurturing from them, because all the women I dated were very sweet, very nurturing.
Speaker 3:You know, all needed to be rescued and since I've detransitioned out of that, that attraction has since left, because I've received the healing for that. And I think, for you know, gay and lesbian, they're fine in their gender. I'm not saying they haven't thought that they haven't wanted to be a man or anything like that, because some of them have. They're like I've thought about being a man, I thought I should be, but yet there wasn't enough self-hatred. I think that it was enough to force them or to encourage them to begin to live as that opposite sex. And they also found a partner who was also a woman or a man that you know said you don't need to change, you know I'm happy this way, and so there's something that either was more disconnected in me or something that wasn't connected in me that wanted to change. Where that doesn't happen in the gay and lesbian, I think they have just enough affirmation from home that my sexual identity is okay, but my orientation is I'm trying to get an unmet need met through this other person, through this lifestyle.
Speaker 2:But you do believe that the root of the problem is the same. It's just a different solution, perhaps.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it just manifests differently and I think in the LGBTQ, when we look at that lifestyle, I think that's all manifestations of pain. If we look at that, it's like that person has some wounding in their past that they're looking to get met through this, or there's severe unmet needs or there's trauma that they're trying to fix or get met in. You know this lifestyle and if you talk to a lot of them, they say that they're happy, but when you look at their life, it's really it's really not a happy life.
Speaker 2:So I want to pause a little bit on your adolescence, because right now there are two different legislations that are fighting against each other, and one is titled a bill, is titled Help Not Harm. That requires prevents medical professionals from administering gender change treatments to young children, adolescents. And then the other one, I think it's called gender affirmative care, that says that it is vitally important to provide those treatments to adolescents to prevent the suicide and depression. So did you feel at any point suicidal, as you were in your adolescence, in high school perhaps?
Speaker 3:I did not. Depressed yes, suicidal no, and it wasn't. Yes, I desperately wanted to live as a man, but not so desperately to the place where I would take my own life if I couldn't.
Speaker 2:So what do you think is the solution? Because you know, when we talk about adolescence, before they reach the age of accountability and adulthood, and they are in this situation and they are on the brink of suicide. What hope do parents have in that situation?
Speaker 3:I believe that they have to understand that it's not that their child wants to transition. It's the why they want to transition. It's looking at those underlying issues. There's deep underlying issues there that the child in the transitioning. We need to look at. That that's a cry for help and it's not helping them to transition.
Speaker 3:In fact, once they transition, that underlying current that's stirring everything up does not go away. It doesn't get better. It may for a little bit, because you're like I experienced that started the hormones. I'm like whoa, I've arrived, look at me. And then I just went back into the same old, same old.
Speaker 3:And in fact, the anxiety rises when I watch these young adolescents begin to take hormones because now they do have to present this way and it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work to continue to live as something that you're not created to be or, you know, present this person every day of who you're really not. It's a lot of work, it's exhausting, and so you take that depression and that anxiety and that stress and that exhaustion and you pile more of it on there. You know, of course, you know they're going to self destruct, you know, and they're going to start cutting, if they're not already? And I think we need to get down to the root of why they want to live in that opposite sex. Why is that so important? What is it that they believe about themselves? That has no value. It comes down to their value and that they're enough in their identity as they are. And it's interesting. I've watched some other detransitioner stories and when they get out of puberty they're like what was I thinking? I don't want to do this. And then they have to detransition. So again it goes back to looking at the underlying current. That's, you know, putting them in this depression and parents to be watching.
Speaker 3:For what are the behavioral changes that my child is going through? Are they dressing different? Who are their friends? Where are they on social media? They really need to be aware of what's feeding you. You know, looking at what's your curriculum, that you're being taught and go into school board meetings, getting involved in that.
Speaker 3:Looking again, going to social media. Where are they on social media? Because there's a lot of platforms that are out there. They're like, if your parents don't accept this, we love you, and so they create this welcoming environment and this child is vulnerable and hurting and wants that attention. They're desperate for attention and I'm not sure why that's not happening at home, or maybe it is and in the child's perception that's not what they want or they think that they need. So they're going to go out outside of the home and they're going to look for that and there's a ton of welcoming things that will bring them into that to say, hey, look at this.
Speaker 3:So I would encourage parents, when they begin to see these changes, especially if the child is on social media, how long are they on their laptop or their phone, you know, taking a look at that, and then are they isolating. Because when they start to isolate, then they're going to be on their laptop or their phone even more. And if they have a social media account and they're presenting as the opposite sex, it's kind of like this, it's an addiction. So if I get a like for wearing lipstick, I get 10,000, you know, or 5,000 likes. And then I wear eye makeup and a dress and I present that on social media. How many more likes will I get?
Speaker 3:So it's really goes down again to that affirmation of them understanding that who they are is enough and it is valuable and they have something to offer and they were created on purpose, for a purpose and getting to the root of that through counseling and sometimes it takes family counseling and the parents to look at. Okay. So let's risk and ask the child what are the offenses or where did we not meet your needs? And allow the child to express that. And it may not be true, but it's their perception and that perception needs truth and it needs to be dealt with and understood.
Speaker 2:Exactly. So what made you realize that living a life of a different gender didn't really make you happy or solve your issues?
Speaker 3:Well, I was confronted by the church and they asked me because I'd been living as a man and I'd been involved in ministry. And they somebody told them hey, this is this person is presenting this way, but that's not who they are. So they asked me a question and they're saying we're hearing rumors about you and we want to know who are you, who are you really? And I confessed and I said I'm a woman, living as a man and prior to that I believed I was a man who used to be a woman. But it was when I confessed and told the truth that I'm a woman, living as a man, I encountered the Lord and it was in that encounter with the Lord, you know, the Holy Spirit blew into me and when I encountered that breath of God, it was like the truth came all tumbling forward and it was like, okay, wow, I'm not living how I was created to be. And when I said yes to the Lord and walking that out, it was. Then I began to work back through all of this stuff, seeing the pain, seeing the molestation, forgiveness of my dad for how he treated my mom, how he treated me, understanding that I am enough and you know, god created me for a purpose and I was created in his image, so I'm an image bearer. And what am I doing with that? How can I steward that? And you know, embracing the truth that being a woman is good, you know, just confronting all those lies and then tearing down I guess the buzz term now is deconstruction. I'm just deconstructing all those lies that I believed about how a man is better. And then I also realized that I had this fear of men and I had to work through that. Men not all men were my dad and that there were good men out there that had good for me, that weren't just it and just taking from me, you know. And then I was put into a family. I got to live with the family and I got to see what a healthy family environment was like. So to a degree I got to grow up all over again. I got to see healthy parents and a healthy marriage and how the kids respond to parents who love them, you know. And it was just this whole process and it took about five years for I got to a place where I'm like Okay, I'm ready to really go back to living as a woman, because I was kind of in this not really a man but not really a woman place, kind of not really androgynous, but this very neutral place, and I had to trust the Lord for a lot of the truth and I also had a really great community.
Speaker 3:And then, going back to the church, I had a church where I could just go and be and they weren't inspecting my process, they were with me in the process and sure, there were those that how come you're not doing this and why aren't you doing that and what's taking you so long? And it's like you're doing the best I can here. You know, because there was so much stuff to work through, there's so much pain, and I had two really great, very straight women come alongside me, nurturing moms, to walk with me, to help me understand, and I can remember one of my mentors saying you asked me questions. It was like how come you don't know this? You should have been taught this when you were six. How do you not know this? I'm like I don't know it. So I feel like they came in and they filled in the gaps.
Speaker 3:And same with the church, you know, they came in and they're like, hey, how you doing today? You want to go out for coffee and they made space for me and again, it wasn't all about examining my process. It was like how do we just walk with you in this? Because they saw that yeah, you're struggling and yeah, you're trying to figure out the truth and you're trying to figure out who you are, but there's more to you than this struggle. You have giftings, you have things to offer. You know the Lord's going to take you places, and how do I partner with Him in that? So it was, yeah, five years of that, and I would say even 10, because even once I crossed out of that lifestyle and began to live as a woman, I was still figuring out okay, what do I do with men? Because you know, I dealt with the fear of men, and not just the fear of man, but the fear of men forever.
Speaker 2:It felt like, you know, and just realizing you know I have to ask this question have you been able to fall in love with a guy?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I have dated, I've had my crushes, you know. I've like, oh you're, you're pretty cute. So that whole attraction thing has changed. And in fact I was talking to a friend about this just yesterday and we're joking. She said you should, you should get on a dating website. And I'm like, are you crazy? And she's like, no, what, what happens if you would meet somebody? I'm like I don't know what would happen, you know, but I'm very much open to that idea. And now I notice men. I mean, I've been noticing men for a long time but I'm like, what about you? What it would be like if you were my husband? And I've made a list for the Lord okay, these are the qualities he needs to have you know, I'm afraid when you fall in love, the list goes out the window.
Speaker 3:Well, that is good to know. I mean, don't hold it too tight, but I can make off, check off the little things, right?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 2:Well, so this is an incredible story and I was very encouraged when I read your story, because you hear a lot more stories of where this didn't work out for people and they still find themselves miserable and unhappy and unfulfilled.
Speaker 2:So it seems like your experience with the church helping you get through this was mostly positive, or whether some moments. I guess my question is what would you want, how would you want the church to address that? Because here's the conversation that I had with my friends and we were literally talking after this movie, watching the movie Jesus Revolution, and how we want to capture the struggle of our generation, and then it just came down to this well, let's say, transgender person or gender confused person comes to the church, and so where do we start? You know, of course we receive them, we love them, but we have to let them know that this is wrong, like if it's, let's say, if this is Keith that came into the church, do we call him Keith or do we call him Kathy Grace? What is the right thing to do? So what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3:Well. So it goes back to a level of relationship, you know, and sometimes the transgender person comes in and you don't know. So I was so deceptive in my looks, you wouldn't have known that I was a woman, you would have accepted me right off as a guy and would have been in relationship that that may have been discovered. Because, you know, in talking with people you begin to have friends and it's you select those people that you're like I want to trust you. You know we've connected. I want to trust you so they can fight in you. And you know, sure, the first response is like, oh my gosh, now what do I do? You continue to be their friend. It's no different than they've told you. I've committed adultery, you know. And one of the examples, because I was asking the Lord, lord, how do we, how do we meet these people? And he showed me this, these three examples. So you're a greeter at the door and the first person comes in. His name's Frank and he's a pillar in the business community. He, you know, funds different events and he comes in and you're like good morning, frank, how's it going? He's like, oh, it's so good Life. God is good, you know. And then behind him. Mary comes in. Mary is, you know, she's the founder of the co-op and they do, you know, home school. She leads Bible study. And she comes in and it's like good morning, mary. I gotta tell you that Bible study that was out of the park, man, it was so good. And she's like thank you. And then in walks Becky, now Becky. When you look at Becky you can tell Becky's not Becky, becky Sam. And you're like good morning and hi, welcome to our church. And all of a sudden everything gets uncomfortable. Why, I get that. That's not normal and you can tell that's really not Becky. But Becky goes in and the Lord pointed out to me. He said you know, frank is a pillar in the community but he's embezzling money from the company. But you don't know that because you can't see that Mary is cheating on her husband. But you can't see that either. But Becky comes in and Becky's wearing her pain, being wanting to be Becky, sam, wanting to be Becky. Becky's wearing her pain. So out of respect, because we don't have that level of relationship to tell them the truth yet, though, we want to right that's kind of the religious answer. So we have to form a relationship with Becky, we have to meet Becky where she's at, becky where she's at, so that he can come into the truth. And it's in that relationship we earn that place of trust. We give them that respect. We meet them Because I think about Jesus and the woman at the well.
Speaker 3:He knew all about her and he risked his relation or his reputation as a Jewish man to talk to a Samaritan woman which was like whoa, what are you thinking? But he risked that and what he? What he said to her? The first thing was give me a drink. He asked her for something and she's like well, I don't have anything. And then what does he do? He offers her a different way Well, I'm the living water. And he doesn't say anything about knowing where she's at until she confesses. Because he says, hey, go get your husband's because, well, I don't have a husband. He's like you're right, you have five right. So he opens that space for her to tell him the truth.
Speaker 3:And we as a church, you know, and I think about it's in levels of relationships. So if we're just meeting this transgender person for the first time, we don't know them in any other capacity. And you know, before the Lord confronted me and I, and I confessed I'm a woman living as a man. The Lord came to me four years prior to that and said to me will you now? And I said yes to him. And in this next four years the Lord wooed me and I served in the church as a man. I still lived as a man for another four years. So there was four years where the Lord was patient with me until he came to the place where he knew he, if I, if I bring her this truth now, I think she's going to go for it right, and so we have to have that same patience with this person and understanding.
Speaker 3:Becky didn't get there overnight. Sam didn't start struggling with this that morning when he got up to came to church. Sam's been struggling with a really long time. So because Sam didn't get there overnight, he's not going to come out overnight and Sam needs a safe place to feel loved. First, he needs to know that he's loved so that when he gets ready to confess you know what. I'm struggling with this and I think this is the only way to live. It's in that place, when he opens the door and says I need help, that we can come in and say I want to help you, and it's not necessarily again by saying you need to go back to being a woman, but it's asking him those questions and allowing him to continue to invite us into that space. So, sam, tell me how you got here, or Becky, tell me how you got here. Why did you want to live as a woman?
Speaker 2:Let's look at the flip side of this coin, though. You know we talked about the fact that now it's part of the school curriculum to teach the children that it is okay to change their gender upon their wishes and be a different gender than you were born, and so you can't help but feel that we are living in the time of war on gender, war on war on sexuality, war on family, and so it's only natural that the church feels a little defensive, you know, when it comes to protecting our values, at the very least within our church building. So let's say there is Becky, who is not Becky, and she's warmly welcomed and received as she is, while we're waiting for the Holy Spirit to do his work in her heart. But let's say Becky wants to serve in some capacity. So what do we do then?
Speaker 3:You make a boundary and it's okay when Becky comes and says, hey, I want to serve here. We cannot give them a leadership position. I don't believe in that and I don't believe we just open the doors and kind of lay down the welcome mat everywhere to Becky. Sam needs to be loved, sam needs to know that he's safe while he's figuring out that being Becky is not okay. And we have to trust the Lord in them, that he's working to and that they're at that church for a reason. They're there because they're searching. They're like I don't know if there's a God, but if there is, I need him to show up. And so while they're searching, we have to understand the Lord met us in our mess too. And what did that look like? He didn't expect us to change our mess overnight. Instead, he came in and he began to woo us into a deeper relationship with him, so that when he said, okay, we need to do with this mess, we're like, yeah, we do.
Speaker 3:And so if Becky says, you know, I want to serve in the children's ministry, then I believe it's okay for the church to go. We need to talk because we need to know your history, we need to understand you know why you came to the church and you know forgive us if we're wrong about this, but you know we're not sure that you've always been a woman and we need to talk about that, because we do have boundaries as far as who serves in the church. And you know we don't know you that well. Maybe you've been here for two years but you haven't really been involved in a lot. And maybe if Becky wants to join a women's Bible study, a boundary needs to be set with that too. It's okay to hold your biblical standards, but at the same time we still have to try to figure out how to say no in an encouraging way. You know, if Becky wants to join a women's Bible study, it's like you know we need to talk about that because I'm not sure that that would be a good fit for you.
Speaker 2:I was just thinking that we have discussed the scenario where a person actually reached out. They came to church. Do you think there is? It makes sense? Because many of them won't just for the fear of being rejected and shunned and judged. You know so and of course, you know me being involved in the missions ministry and, being a missionary, I'm always thinking outside the doors of the church, so you know, naturally the desire is to go out and meet people where they are before they express their desire or courage, have the courage to step inside the church, but at the same time. So what are your thoughts on that? What is the best way to do that?
Speaker 2:Missionary going out meeting people yeah reaching out to this community where they are.
Speaker 3:Sure. So I have a friend trans man, so a woman living as a man. He goes by Harley and I started interaction with him and we meet together and he loves meeting with me. He wanted me to start the fight with the hormones and all of that stuff, as far as it being dangerous. And I said Now, I don't know Harley's female name at all, he's never shared that with me. So I've met him. Where is that? And I said you know, that's not my fight. I agree with you as far as the hormone thing is bad, but that's not my fight.
Speaker 3:Because if I entered that with you, I'd want him to be, to become detransitioners. I'd want him to come out of that lifestyle. And he said, okay, I can appreciate that. And I said you know, with you understanding the harms of the hormone, what keeps you from detransitioning? And he said to me so if I detransition, would I have to look at all that pain, all that sexual molestation and rapes that I've went through? And I said, yeah, you would. If you want complete healing, yeah you would. And he's like Then I can't do that. So there's a fear of them being vulnerable. But yet Harley loves hanging out with me and he says to me you know, if I was to go back to being a woman, I'd want to be like you. I'm like, okay, but it's like it's still breaking through that place of under for Harley to understand. Harley, I love you where you're at. I don't want you to stay there. I want you to have that healing and I will continue to meet with you until I'm able to get to that place where you're like, okay, I'm ready. I'm like, praise the Lord, you know, because I I live that way for 11 years, you know. And so I think about that and praying for Harley and walking with him. You know, I've probably hung out with him off and on for about two years now and people are like, well, how come he's not in the truth yet? How come Harley hasn't become a she? And I said, you know what I live for 11 years as a man, how patient God was with me for 11 years. I can't expect Harley to come out, you know, and be whoever his female persona is until he knows he can trust me. And we're getting there Again, going out on the street and meeting people.
Speaker 3:It's meeting them where they're at and just taking the time because, again, there's more to them than than that struggle. It's like so what's your favorite color and why? Why is that your favorite color? Do you like ice cream? Let's go get ice cream. You know, or I see you live here. You know why. Why are you choosing this area? And it's finding out about them, asking questions about them and if you notice body language, say, hey, you know, I notice you seem kind of down today. Why are you down? Because it's not always about speaking truth to them, it's about listening from them.
Speaker 2:So my final question is you are a part of Portland Fellowship and it's an organization that specifically helps people from the transgender and homosexual background to transition into their God given gender or sexuality. So what is the success rate of the treatment that you offer?
Speaker 3:You know, honestly, that's up to the individual, because we all have a will, we all have choices. As far as as success, you know, there are some that have gone back into the lifestyle and some of that is because there was areas that were unsurrendered, there was temptation that they gave into. It's a two year discipleship program and at that end of two years some people they come back and they want to go through the program again because two years really isn't long enough to deal with all of your stuff. It took me five. Good grief, I wouldn't have been able to make it through in two years, you know, and even in five there was still stuff I needed to go through.
Speaker 3:But yes, there's been people who have fallen back into the lifestyle, who have gone through the Portland Fellowship program, and there are many who have not, that continue to live that godly lifestyle, who continue to choose the Lord, and for some it's a daily thing of continuing to choose the Lord rather than giving into the temptation. For others it's a continual surrender and for those who don't want to surrender those areas, for whatever, you know there's fear. You know the enemy takes advantage of that fear and it's inviting the Lord into every space that you could possibly think of, and then especially the ones that he reveals. I need to be Lord in this space and if you can't walk that, or you don't want to, or you're unwilling, you're only going to be able to go as far as you as you, you know, can. And I asked the Lord at one point so, lord, how free can I be? Because I'm like I don't want to just go halfway, because I've seen a lot of people just go halfway and then they're in this, stuck in this, this place, and I'm like, lord, I don't want to do that. So how free can I be? So I'm like, either I, just I, you know, I guess, to a point I was looking for a guarantee. You know, if I'm going to continue, then I need to know.
Speaker 3:So I'm like, Lord, how free can I be? And the Lord said to me you're as free as you want to be. And I realized I'm the only one who can hinder my freedom, because the Lord's like hey, the world is yours, you know. And so, as I've pressed in and continue to press in, and same with the ones that I've seen go through the program, yes, sometimes it's hard, it is so hard, it's painful and you think you're going to die and I didn't and I'm here, but as you continue to press in and I've watched those continue to press in, the Lord is amazing. And how he's rescued, how he's delivered, how he's redeemed, how you know the places that he's healed and how he's healed them and how he's met them. It's miraculous.
Speaker 2:Well, and in essence, this struggle is not any different than anyone else's struggle. We, as believers in Christ, we have to crucify our flesh daily. It may be in a different form, and just because our struggles some of our struggles are more hidden than the struggles of others doesn't make them any better or easier. And so you know, it's your story and it has a purpose, and I believe that through what you're doing now, you're really fulfilling a God-given purpose for your life, and so I commend you for that, and I really my prayers are with you. I appreciate this conversation very much. It leaves me excited and inspired, and I believe it will do the same for our listeners.
Speaker 3:Great, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:God does not make mistakes when he creates us. Jeremiah 1.5 says Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart. It is the tragic consequences of sin that creates confusion and discord between us and God's plan for our lives. If you or your loved one are on the brink of despair today because you long to be a different gender or you are sexually attracted to people of the same sex but also want to have a deep personal relationship with Christ, please know that the Lord is not indifferent to your struggle and through him there is always hope, restoration and redemption.
Speaker 2:I am including in the show notes the link to Portland Fellowship, which is portlandfellowshipcom, as well as Kathy Grace's email that she graciously made available. But what does this conversation mean for the body of Christ In the Great Commission? We are told to go to Jerusalem, which is your backyard, judea, your community, and Samaria, the community that you normally don't fellowship with, the people that you may not culturally accept. And the only way we can be effective messengers of Christ's love and hope is by being able to walk alongside with love and compassion and truth. I am very inspired by this conversation and I hope you were too Tune in next week for another interview where I talk with Bill Thrasher about the ways to resurrect and empower your prayer life. Until next time, I'm Helen Todd.