Do clinical psychology and the Bible contradict each other? Should a Christian seek help from a psychologist and medications or rely on faith and prayer?
This interview with Dr. Don Ott, a pastor turned clinical psychologist, challenges some common misconceptions and presents a riveting discussion that marries the worlds of faith and psychology. The conversation unpacks the surprising roots of psychology in Christian theology and explores the complex landscape where secular and biblical psychology intersect. Discover how both pastors and Christian psychologists can emerge as lifelines for those grappling with major mental disorders including schizophrenia, depression, and bipolar disorder. Unearth the spiritual implications of mood disorders, decode the rising depression rates in the United States, and understand the critical importance of cognitive behavioral therapy and medication in treating such ailments. This enlightening conversation with Dr. Ott will surely leave you with a fresh perspective on how faith and psychology can coexist and complement each other.
Dr. Ott's book: https://www.amazon.com/BIBLICAL-PSYCHOLOGY-END-TIME-BELIEVERS-Scripture-ebook/dp/B0C51JX23S/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Biblical+Psychology+for+end-time+believers+Don+Ott&qid=1696264921&s=books&sr=1-1-catcorr
Thanks for listening! Visit our website rfwma.org and follow us on Facebook and Instagram!
Help us make more inspiring episodes: https://rfwma.org/give-support-the-podcast/
Do clinical psychology and the Bible contradict each other? Should a Christian seek help from a psychologist and medications or rely on faith and prayer?
This interview with Dr. Don Ott, a pastor turned clinical psychologist, challenges some common misconceptions and presents a riveting discussion that marries the worlds of faith and psychology. The conversation unpacks the surprising roots of psychology in Christian theology and explores the complex landscape where secular and biblical psychology intersect. Discover how both pastors and Christian psychologists can emerge as lifelines for those grappling with major mental disorders including schizophrenia, depression, and bipolar disorder. Unearth the spiritual implications of mood disorders, decode the rising depression rates in the United States, and understand the critical importance of cognitive behavioral therapy and medication in treating such ailments. This enlightening conversation with Dr. Ott will surely leave you with a fresh perspective on how faith and psychology can coexist and complement each other.
Dr. Ott's book: https://www.amazon.com/BIBLICAL-PSYCHOLOGY-END-TIME-BELIEVERS-Scripture-ebook/dp/B0C51JX23S/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Biblical+Psychology+for+end-time+believers+Don+Ott&qid=1696264921&s=books&sr=1-1-catcorr
Thanks for listening! Visit our website rfwma.org and follow us on Facebook and Instagram!
Help us make more inspiring episodes: https://rfwma.org/give-support-the-podcast/
What if you had a guide who could tell you how to bridge a gap between who you are today and who you are destined to be? What if, each week, you could hear a story of someone who has tried and succeeded, or perhaps tried and failed but learned something in the process? Limitless Spirit is a weekly podcast where host Helen Todd interviews guests about topics and personal stories on defining life's purpose, pursuing personal growth and developing a deeper faith in Christ.
Speaker 2:Welcome to another episode of the Limitless Spirit podcast. I'm your host, helen Todd, and if this is the first time you're tuning in, this podcast covers various topics important to people of faith and especially those who want to grow and live a meaningful life in Christ. Today's episode explores the relationship between Christian faith and psychology. We will cover questions like should a Christian struggling with mental health seek help from a psychologist? What are fundamental differences between Christian and secular psychology and other related issues?
Speaker 2:I was looking at statistics. For example, in the year 2019 through 2020, over 20% of adults in the United States were experiencing mental illness issues. This is equivalent to over 50 million Americans. There are the numbers showing that over half of adults with mental illness do not receive treatment. That totals over 28 million individuals. Six percent of youth in the United States is reported to have substance abuse disorder, and that is equivalent over 1.5 million young people in America. They meet the criteria for an illicit drug or alcohol use disorder, and the numbers go on and on, reflecting how the issues of mental health are so prevalent and also reflecting how people either do not have the opportunity to receive help or are hesitant to receive help. So these are frightening numbers and they probably don't take into account people who never seek help for any mental health related issues.
Speaker 2:And especially among Christians, sometimes there is a belief that somehow psychology is contrary to their faith. So for this conversation I invited Dr Don Ott, whose career started as a pastor who became interested in the field of psychology, went on to receive his Bachelor of Science degree in clinical psychology and pre-med at Oral Roberts University, and later Doctor of Psychology degree in clinical psychology at Biola University. So he's a highly qualified, very well-trained professional and recently he completed a book that is titled Biblical Psychology for the End Time Believers. In this book he points out how psychology takes its roots in the Word of God and how it can help Christians to know themselves better. Hello Don, welcome to the Limitless Spirit podcast. How are you today?
Speaker 2:I'm fine, helen. How about you? I'm doing wonderful. I think I'm going to have a pretty interesting conversation. I'm excited to talk to a psychologist with wonderful credentials, like you have, but also a man of God who just recently wrote a book about the fundamental difference between Christian and secular psychology, which I found very interesting and helpful. But before we come to that point in our conversation, let's talk about psychology in general. So I've heard two extreme opinions, one of them saying that psychology literally is a pseudoscience and doesn't qualify as science, and then people who consider seeing a therapist sort of a status symbol and are quite proud of that. So what are your thoughts? Is psychology really a science?
Speaker 3:Well, psychology comes from the Greek word suke, and the letter psi that begins. The word suke is kind of the universal symbol for psychology, and so psychology literally means soul science. I would agree with Oswald Chambers that when the Bible mentions something over 500 times referring to the soul, that the church needs to take it seriously. And so, yes, psychology is a systematic science or study that originated in Christian theology.
Speaker 2:That is interesting. That was an interesting fact that I learned from your book that origins of psychology are in theology. But if we set this aside, some people say there are five basic requirements for a field to be considered science and some of them are like clearly defined terminology, quantifiability, highly controlled experimental conditions, reproducibility and predictability and testability, and I don't see how psychology falls into that category. Like, let's say, we take the definition of happiness, it's highly subjective, right?
Speaker 3:Yes, Well, what I would observe is that secular psychology did to start out in the philosophy department of most colleges and universities, and only in the 20th century did it begin to gravitate into the science departments. And then of course now today we would think of behavioral science as a subset different from the natural sciences like chemistry and physics and so on. And so there has been kind of a transition, particularly in secular psychology, between the 20th or the 19th and the 20th century. It kind of became a little more associated with medicine, with health care, that sort of thing. But that's all development that took place after the field was dominated by secular psychology, starting at the beginning of the 20th century. Some of my early seminar presentations used as a theme biblical psychology before Freud, and of course that's what I was emphasizing is that there are deep roots of biblical psychology that go way back, even to the 1700s. There's literature that's still available today from the 1700s on the subject of biblical psychology.
Speaker 2:And basically secular psychology only dates to the beginning of last century.
Speaker 3:Yes, freud and his contemporaries started writing around the end of the 1800s and the beginning of the 1900s, and so that's really when secular psychology became a distinct discipline and became then most of the early psychologists were medical doctors. That's the reason why today we have psychiatrists, who are medical doctors with a specialization in the mind and the mood and the will and so on, and then psychologists whose focus is specifically on those areas, those faculties of the soul the mind, the will and mood.
Speaker 2:So let's talk about when does a person know that they need a help of a psychologist?
Speaker 3:Well, that's one of the problems. It's kind of I suppose it's a corollary to the people who are most trapped by Satan being the least aware that they need spiritual help. Similarly, most often I find in clinical practice that the people who are the most pathological, the least healthy mentally and emotionally, are the least likely to pursue professional help. So, to answer your question, a lot of times people don't realize they need a counselor. In fact, they will sometimes protest that if other people suggest to them that they need a therapist, they may question that and challenge that. You're the one who's crazy, they'll say.
Speaker 2:So are you saying that a person who actually willingly shows up in your office probably does not need their help?
Speaker 3:Not really. More often, people voluntarily go to see a psychologist because they're in crisis, and so, for example, a person who has suffered some severe loss, a death, a health emergency, other things, they're aware of how different their mood is, and so they might voluntarily seek out a therapist. Or someone who has gone through, let's say, a marital separation or a divorce, or has suffered the death of a child, for example. Those are people who most often seek out mental health care voluntarily because they're going through a crisis, and so those cases are sometimes more time limited. You see them for a period of time, they improve and then they go on with their regular life. But the most serious diagnoses and the three that result the most often in hospitalization are schizophrenia, which is a thought disorder, major depression, which is a mood disorder, and bipolar disorder, which is a mood disorder that goes in both directions. The person may be either severely depressed and unmotivated and lethargic, or they may be manic, bouncing off the wall, emotionally excited, and so those are the three that most often result in hospitalization.
Speaker 2:So I want to talk more about these three disorders that you mentioned, but before that, let's talk about your path to psychology. So you were first a pastor, a minister that was your original training and then you decided to pursue degree in psychology. So what was the idea behind that? Did you feel like? I assume pastors have to be trained a little bit in psychology, I would imagine, because they're constantly approached by their congregants with various life situations and sometimes personal and mental health situations. But so what was the motivation behind wanting to pursue psychology?
Speaker 3:When I graduated from high school, psychology was not even offered, and actually a year or two later the high school I graduated from offered a class in psychology that my now wife actually took.
Speaker 3:She graduated the same high school. So my first introduction to psychology was as a Bible college student, and it was taught by Ralph Merrens at Ozark Bible College, and it was taught strictly from a secular point of view, and so I had no idea about the theological roots of psychology. In the division of systematic theology it's called anthropology, which is the study of man, and so I went about my business as a typical preacher of a local church congregation from 1970 to 1977 and realized all of these issues that involved mental health issues, and so I started reading more about it, became more interested in it and then went on a path to become a specialist in the area of mental health, with the idea of helping other more traditional pastors with their counseling responsibilities, and so it was actually not until the 80s, when I was in graduate school, that I started learning about the theological roots of psychology, before it had become dominated by secular psychology in the 20th century, and so that's what started my pursuit of biblical psychology as a graduate student.
Speaker 2:Which makes you somewhat of a rare bird, right Don, because people normally who have high credentials in psychology very rarely also have credentials in ministry, and I think that positions you very uniquely to help people. So let's talk about what is fundamentally the major difference between the secular psychology and Christian psychology in its approach and methods.
Speaker 3:Well, in the introduction to my book I point out that it really comes down to a person's comprehension of scripture. Do they acknowledge scripture as the word of God, as divine revelation, like the scripture presents itself? It says that all scripture is God breathed, it says that holy men were carried along by the Holy Spirit, and Paul says that the very words that he used are spiritual words, so that they can only be understood by spiritual people. And so secular psychology is limited to human observation and reason, what we can figure out on our own.
Speaker 3:Biblical psychology, on the other hand, does not reject what we can observe and figure out on our own, but it says that there is a foundation, under that of divine revelation, that includes things that cannot be known in any other way. For example, secular psychology can tell us nothing about the origin of human beings. All we know about the origin of human beings had to be revealed by God in scripture. And then also, secular psychology can tell us nothing about the ultimate destiny of human beings, which again is revealed by God in scripture, that there is a glorified human nature. That, of course, is a part of the salvation process that's only accessible through faith in Christ.
Speaker 2:So why are those two things important to psychology and the results knowing the origins and knowing the destiny.
Speaker 3:Well, I think that our sense of identity, who we are as human beings, is solidly rooted in what the scripture reveals about created human nature that we are created in the image of God.
Speaker 3:In my book I mentioned that over the course of my career I've done over 6,000 face-to-face psychological evaluations of adults and children and adolescents, and every one of those interviews was like a glimpse into what it means to be created in the image of God, whereas a purely secular psychologist is going to reject that he's going to see a human being is just a product of evolution, just a more highly developed animal, and then, of course, has no idea what happens to them after they die or what their potential is for a future life. And of course, I think that if a person is sick or injured or dying, knowing that their body, their lowly body, can be transformed into a glorious body like Christ is profoundly significant to them. They don't see life as just ending at death. They realize that there is something beyond that. And, again, secular psychology is not going to discover that by research or observation or reason.
Speaker 2:So is there a cross-section, though, between the secular psychology and the Christian psychology, because otherwise-.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Otherwise, why would you know if a person is on the same page with you in acknowledging scripture being the absolute authority and divinely inspired? Ultimately, a pastor could guide them in their mental health just by affirming the scriptures. So there is something that a Christian psychologist is aware of more than a pastor would be to help people with mental issues. So there is a certain cross-section, potentially right.
Speaker 3:Oh, absolutely yes. I would say that the biblical psychologist is in a unique position to take advantage of everything that has been discovered by psychological research. And, of course, my training was in a graduate school approved by the American Association of Psychologists. I am licensed by the state of Arkansas as a clinical psychologist, so I have all of the resources and information that is available to any other secular psychologist.
Speaker 3:I see biblical psychology as more supplemental, in that it answers questions and tells us things that we can't arrive at just by our own observation and reason. The way Paul puts that in 1 Corinthians, chapter two, he says that no eye has seen, no ear has heard. That's human observation. Neither has it entered into the mind of man. That's human reason, the things that God has revealed to us by his spirit. So I simply see biblical psychology as being like the bookends that tell us how humanity originated, their created human nature and where humanity can potentially go in glorified human nature Again, something that in the middle, in the overlap between the secular and biblical psychology, you're not going to find. And so I talk about in my book, in the introduction, the crossroads of secular and biblical psychology. And of course that crossroads is does God know everything about human beings created in his image, and can he reveal that to us? And has he revealed that and of course my answer is emphatically yes that he has revealed in scripture things that we could not figure out on our own?
Speaker 2:So, with that in mind, let's talk about these three main disorders that you mentioned before and how your approach as a Christian psychologist would be different from a secular psychologist. So you mentioned schizophrenia, depression and bipolar disorder. So in your opinion, are all three of these conditions curable or just manageable?
Speaker 3:I would tend more towards saying that they are manageable, because the most severe mental health disorders are very much linked to genetics, and so a person who is diagnosed with schizophrenia or a person who is diagnosed with bipolar disorder probably has a genetic risk factor for that, in the same way that a person can have a risk factor for diabetes or heart disease or other completely physical disorders, in the same way there is a statistical factor in those three major mental disorders, and so a schizophrenic, accurately diagnosed, may be very functional, but they are probably still going to be subject to hallucinations, to delusions, to other thought disorders, because that's what schizophrenia is by definition it is a thought disorder. In other words, the mind is not functioning entirely accurately. Now, in the case of bipolar disorder, that's a mood disorder. The three faculties of the soul are the mind, the will and the mood. Schizophrenia attacks the mind, bipolar disorder attacks the mood, and then of course depression also attacks the mood, but also it attacks the will.
Speaker 3:One of the main symptoms of major depression is anhedonia, which is an inability to experience pleasure, and so a severely depressed person just loses interest in life. They're unmotivated, they're lethargic, they become socially withdrawn. The Solomon in the book of Ecclesiastes talks about, when the days draw near that you will find no pleasure in them, and he's talking about a state of depression.
Speaker 2:So interesting question on my mind is then this disorder of mood or mind or thoughts is it purely spiritual? So you mentioned it is genetic, but are there times when it's purely spiritual and when it is genetic? Is there a spiritual element to that?
Speaker 3:Well, let's take, for example, the symptom of hallucinations. Hallucinations means that you are seeing or hearing things that are not physically there. Well, there are a number of things that could cause that. You could cause hallucinations by drug use. You could cause hallucinations because you have a risk for schizophrenia, but then a Christian is also going to acknowledge that you could suffer hallucinations because of demonic oppression. Or sometimes you can have a vision from God.
Speaker 2:I mean absolutely. Yeah, you know, I mean, there are people so how do you know when it's this hallucination is induced by your genes or it's a spiritual experience, positive or negative?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think again, this is where a biblical psychologist has an advantage to a purely secular psychologist, because a purely secular psychologist may dismiss even the possibility of demonic oppression or a divine intervention and an angel appearing to someone and speaking to them, and so on, whereas a Christian psychologist is going to be completely comfortable with that.
Speaker 3:Of course that happens because the scripture tells us it happens, and so that's one of the ways that I think I, in fact, in secular psychology, people are often dichotomous, meaning that the only thing they distinguish is the physical, material body and the non material, more ethereal mind they often call it. And so the Greeks and a lot of contemporary secular psychologists are dichotomous. On the other hand, biblical psychology has traditionally always been trichotomous. It acknowledges not only a physical body and a soul, but also a spirit, and the spirit is what enables us to be conscious of God, to be aware that there are physical entities, angelic beings, demons and so on that possess or that occupy our universe, whereas if you reject the spirit, then you have no room in your understanding for spiritual phenomenon. I think that's what benefits a Christian psychologist. They're looking at all of those options.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and so, in the most simplistic terms, you could be potentially diagnosed as a person with schizophrenia biosecular psychologist, when you're just having visions, whether it is from devil or from God. So a huge potential for being misdiagnosed. But let's talk a little bit about depression, because it seems like a very prevalent condition in our current times, and the rate of depression across the world is increasing, and statistics have shown that it's not connected with the economy or whether the country is prosperous and developed or not. So what are your thoughts on that? Why are we experiencing such increase in depression rates?
Speaker 3:Yeah, because, by a lot of measures, the United States is the richest country on the planet and yet, especially since 2020, rates of depression, rates of the prescription of anti-depressants and the rate of suicide have all dramatically increased in what is, again, arguably the richest planet on earth. And so I think that it's resulting from a lack of a sense of identity and a lack of a sense of purpose, a goal and objective in life and, of course, worst case scenario is suicide, and that has dramatically increased in the last couple of years.
Speaker 2:And even among pastors. There have been cases of suicide among high-profile pastors. So how do you explain that?
Speaker 3:Yes, and again, just like with hallucinations, I think that suicidal thoughts could have their origin in our physiology, our genetics, but they could also have their origin in substance use. They could have their origin in spiritual sources. The thief comes only to steal and to kill and to destroy, and so certainly, the goal of Satan and his henchmen for every person is to destroy them, to rob them of any joy in life and any sense of purpose or motivation in life. And so I think that even Christians are susceptible to being oppressed by the devil. The scripture is very clear about that your enemy, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. And so, again, I think that taking out the spiritual dimension, which is largely what has happened in our culture it has become increasingly secularized takes that off the radar for people. They don't even consider that they might be demonically oppressed.
Speaker 2:So, as a Christian psychologist, what is your view on the use of medications, particularly in case of depression? You know, are you for the use of antidepressants, are you against it?
Speaker 3:Oh, absolutely in support of it. One of the pioneers in the field of Christian psychiatry was Frank Minnard and then his colleague Paul Meyer. They wrote a blockbuster book entitled Happiness is a choice. They were both psychiatrists, medical doctors, and so happens that Frank Minnard was also an insulin dependent diabetic, and his attitude was that there is no difference in a depressed person taking an antidepressant and himself, as a diabetic, giving himself insulin injections, that if you realize that there is a physical issue there that is causing you to be depressed, then you ought to treat it Now.
Speaker 3:Also, frank Minnard, who was a psychiatrist, not a psychologist, said that the treatment of choice for mood disorders is cognitive behavioral therapy, which I and most psychologists do.
Speaker 3:So, in other words, he made it very clear that if you're depressed, you may need an antidepressant, but that's not going to solve the problem, because there are roots there that have caused that genetic risk for depression to actually manifest, for you to actually get depressed, and so only cognitive behavioral therapy is going to get at the root of that. Why did I start getting depressed in the first place, and what's perpetuating that depression? Why do I feel anhedonia and inability to experience pleasure? Why do I get no satisfaction from life, and so that's where the therapist comes in. And so, yes, my patients who need antidepressants or other psychotropic meds either also see a psychiatrist or their medication may be managed by their primary care physician in consultation with me. In other words, if their PCP is a general practice provider, they may not be comfortable prescribing antidepressants or antipsychotics, and so they may want to consult with me as a mental health professional to tell them if that would be a good idea. So, yes, I treat a lot of patients who do take psychotropic meds.
Speaker 2:This is an interesting perspective because I think the use of antidepressants sometimes is stigmatized in Christian circles and people feel at times that they should deal with their depression through prayer and going deeper into the Word of God, or maybe talking to their pastor and feel that it's lack of faith to be using medications.
Speaker 3:Well, in fact, I've found that a lot of Christians think that psychology in general is anathema because most of them don't know that it originated within Christian theology, and so they think of it as inherently secular and anti-God, anti-church, anti-christianity, that sort of thing. And so what I emphasize to Christians is Paul, prayed in 1 Thessalonians 523, may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, the one who called you as faithful. And he will do it. And so Christians need to remember that they have a physical body as well as a soul and a spirit. And so I agree that they should pray about their circumstances, they should study the scriptures, but the apostle John said in 3 John may you enjoy good health and may all go well with you even as your soul is getting along well, and so clearly he is saying that if you're not psychologically healthy, you're probably not going to be physically healthy and it's probably going to interfere with your spiritual life.
Speaker 3:The apostle Peter, who said that husbands and wives should live at peace with each other so that nothing would hinder their prayer lives, implying that their relationships were going to spill over into their spiritual lives.
Speaker 2:This is very good and I think your book touches on many of these points. So what can you tell to our listeners? What should they hope to learn or discover by reading your book? Because we're going to post a link in our show notes to Amazon where they can pick up your book, as well as the link to your website, where and it's drdrdondotcom when they can find more resources and get in touch with you if they choose. So what should they hope to learn from your book?
Speaker 3:Well, the book was not written for psychologists and theologians. The book was written for a very general audience. Basically, I say in the book that it is for anyone who is interested in what God reveals in scripture about human nature. And so I introduce the crossroads of secular and biblical psychology, which is your view of scripture, and then I go through seven stages of human existence, from created human nature to glorified human nature, and of course, in between are basically the corrupted human nature, the regulated human nature, which has to do with the law of God, and then redeemed human nature, which is what Christ did, and then it gets into what is called a soteriology, the study of salvation, regeneration or rebirth, and then sanctification, which is the trance of being renewed in our minds, and then glorification, which is when God will give us a new body. So that's what they're going to learn about, and again, I wrote it in such a way that it should be accessible to any serious reader. It's a relatively short book. It's just a little over a hundred pages.
Speaker 2:I failed to bring it to the studio, but can you please mention the name of the book?
Speaker 3:Yes, the title of the book is Biblical Psychology for End Time Believers, and that last phrase, end Time Believers, came from Franz Dalych, who wrote a system of biblical psychology in 1855. He said that there had never been a time more favorable for biblical psychology than what he perceived as the last days. And then the subtitle of the book is Human Nature Revealed by God in Scripture. And so, again, it's relatively short, just over a hundred pages. But it was forty years in the making, and I spent eighteen months writing the manuscript and honing it, trying to make it as accessible and as readable as possible for a popular audience.
Speaker 2:I found it very interesting and very helpful that this was the reason we scheduled this interview. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast, don. I think it will be interesting for our listeners to know that not only you practice psychology here in the United States, but you're also a missionary and you have traveled across the world helping people a few times with us with World Missions Alliance, and so I look forward to more missions adventures with you.
Speaker 3:Well, I appreciate you having me on the podcast, and let me just mention that I'm already working on the sequel, which will be entitled Council with the Mind of Christ, and it will take these principles and apply them to specific populations couples, parents, the depressed, the grieving, etc. And so I'm already working on hammering out that manuscript, lord willing, over the next months.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm excited in advance. Can't wait for you to finish it. Thank you again, don, thanks, bye-bye. I do believe that the Word of God, the power of prayer, the support of your spiritual mentors and your church family can help overcome most of life situations. But isn't it wonderful to know that there are well trained psychologists who base their practice in the Word of God and are able to walk with you in the recovery process when you need extra help? If you struggle with mental health issues and want to ensure that you receive help that is both sound medically and spiritually, seeking out a specialist like Dr Don Ott is extremely helpful. I encourage you to visit his website, drdonottotcom for some helpful resources. You can pick up his book on Amazon I'm going to post a link for this in the show notes and gain better insight on what Christian psychology is all about, and, having read this book myself, I believe that it is helpful for anyone who also wants to help others in their journey to spiritual well-being.
Speaker 2:As I mentioned in the interview, dr Ott takes time off from his busy practice to take the gospel to the nations, and this desire to be a part of the Great Commission is very important essential, I would say, to living a fruitful life in Christ. Whatever talent or gift you received from God can be used to introduce others to Christ. Your story, your experience with God, shared with people in other parts of the world, could be a life-changing moment for someone who needs hope. I invite you to visit our website, rfwmaorg. After all, this is what World Missions Alliance is all about. We're here to help you discover opportunities to be plugged into the Great Commission Again. Our website is rfwmaorg. I'm Helen Todd. Thank you for listening. Until next time.
Speaker 1:Limitless Spirit Podcast is produced by World Missions Alliance. We believe that changed lives change lives. If you want to see your life transformed by Christ's love, or if you want to help those who are hurting and hopeless and discover your greater purpose in serving Christ through short-term missionary work, check out our website, rfwmaorg, and find out how to get involved.