Ethical AI in Recruitment with Nicky Hancock, AMS

In this HRchat episode, we discuss actionable ways companies can  recruit top talent, why skilled-based hiring is important and the responsible use of AI in the hiring process

The guest this time is Nicola (Nicky) Hancock, Regional Managing Director, Americas, AMS

Nicky is responsible for all global staff and clients in the Investment Banking sector and the Americas region at AMS. She ensures the agency is building a strong understanding of clients' businesses and translates this into solutions, delivering services that meet their strategic objectives. Through operational excellence and a great candidate experience, Nicola and her teams enable AMS’s clients to attract and retain the best talent in the sector. In direct relation to this, Nicola is also responsible for supporting the agency’s organization in attracting top talent, enabling AMS’s employees to realize their potential through creating great career opportunities for them to develop, in turn ensuring our clients have the best possible support.

Nicola has over 15 years of experience in resourcing. During her 5+ years with AMS, she has led a number of our key clients globally including RBS, Deutsche Bank, HSBC, and BAML, She has built extensive experience and understanding of financial services and the challenges and opportunities this brings to talent acquisition and management.

Prior to AMS, Nicola's experiences included consulting directly for a number of blue-chip organizations in a range of areas, from Executive Recruitment and Assessment to Employer Branding and Talent Acquisition Technology.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's most downloaded and shared podcasts designed for HR pros, talent execs, tech enthusiasts and business leaders. For hundreds more episodes and what's new in the world of work, subscribe to the show, follow us on social media and visit HRGazettecom and visit.

Speaker 2: 0:22

HRGazettecom. Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show. Hello listeners, this is your host today, bill Bannam, and in this episode we're going to ask what are some actionable ways that companies can adapt how they recruit high quality talent, why is skills-based hiring important and why are HR teams adapting to this? And how should companies think about the responsible and ethical use of AI in the hiring process? Here to answer these questions and many more, is Nikki Hancock, regional Managing Director Americas, over at AMS. Nikki, it's my pleasure to welcome you to the HR chat show today.

Speaker 3: 1:09

Well, thank you very much for having me, Bill, Obviously great to be here.

Speaker 2: 1:14

So why don't we start by getting to know you? Can you take a couple of minutes and tell our listeners all about yourself and what you get up to?

Speaker 3: 1:22

Yes, of course. So I am the regional president for the Americas at AMS. I live in Atlanta and I have been with AMS for 13 years, six in the UK and seven here in the US and actually this is my third state in the US. So I originally relocated to New York and spent an amazing three years in New York, and then lived in Florida for a few years and most recently have moved to Atlanta.

Speaker 2: 1:55

Do you know? You haven't lost your accent at all.

Speaker 3: 1:57

No, unlike my son I have to say so me and my husband have maintained our accents, but my son to say so, me and my husband have maintained our accents, but my son, he's definitely got an American accent.

Speaker 2: 2:09

What's the number one best thing about your job, Nikki?

Speaker 3: 2:13

The best thing about my job is the people, whether it's, you know, our team, whether it's the clients that we work with and the partnerships that we have, is definitely all about the people, and I think you know, for anyone in talent acquisition or HR, ultimately that's why you love your job. It's the relationships you build, the problems that you get to solve, um, and I think also, you know, we're very fortunate in kind of talent, that we're working in an extremely innovative industry, um, and I think that gives us huge opportunity, um, and it's something actually that's really really exciting so we have recorded, I believe, well over 700 episodes for the hr chat show over the years.

Speaker 2: 3:01

Wow, I've been. I've been doing this since before.

Speaker 2: 3:03

I was grey, since before I was grey. Um, we very often talk about talent and the shortage of talent. Yeah, whether that's the war for talent or, uh, ways to entice top talent, this year, of course, is the great stay. Forget about the great resignation. This is a great stay. Lots of people are staying in their jobs this year. They're not so interested in moving around. I'd love to get your thoughts now on why there is a talent shortage at the moment and what can companies do about it yeah.

Speaker 3: 3:32

So I think overall, the talent landscape is quite complex, um, and I think it's definitely difficult sometimes to understand what the challenge is and therefore the solution. So you know, overall a macro perspective, the solution. So you know, overall a macro perspective, I think we all recognize, you know, low unemployment, generally speaking. We've seen, you know, the exit of the baby boomer generation from the workforce. We see low birth rates and we see lower workforce participation rates and so overall, for many, many populations, in many countries, the working age population is shrinking or stagnating at best, and so I think it's important to recognize, kind of some of those macro drivers.

Speaker 3: 4:18

I then think you know there are still key areas where there are skill shortages. If we think about some of the tech skills we need today, I think there's about a million unfilled roles. That's projected to get to 4 million in the next 10 years. So I think there's still skills gaps that companies are experiencing, but also the types of skills are changing. So you know we can see that especially around things like AI, machine learning, data processing.

Speaker 3: 4:50

You know new skills, skills that are in high demand, but also skills that are needed by all industries, and so you've got a lot of organizations competing for the same talent, same talent. I think the other piece is you know, for top performing talent, I think you know they've got a lot of options and I think certainly some of the clients that we work with you know they are. You know the leading companies in their industry and they're probably very used to because of their brand and their profile. You know top talent coming to them and that's just not happening so much anymore. I think all organizations have to really think about their proposition and how they proactively reach out to high quality talent.

Speaker 5: 5:34

The HR Chat Podcast is one of the world's most popular shows, offering insights and tips from HR pros, business leaders, industry influencers and tech experts World of Work. Topics covered include HR tech, ai, leadership, talent, recruitment, employee engagement, wellness, dei and company culture. The show, produced by the award-winning HR Gazette, has released over 700 episodes so far, each offering fresh perspectives and tips to help you better understand the changing future of work. Check out the latest HR chat episodes on your podcast platform of choice and read the latest articles at HRGazettecom.

Speaker 2: 6:14

Very good. I can tell that this isn't your first time. You've done this before. Very, very good. Ok, we're going to talk more about the skills-based hiring piece in a moment, and personally I love that more companies are getting that skills are more important than perhaps the professional experience. But before we get there, let's give our listeners some tangible takeaways, some actionable insights and takeaways. What are some actionable ways that companies can adapt how they recruit high-quality talent?

Speaker 3: 6:45

So I think the first thing is really using the huge amount of data and insight that we have available to us today, because I think that helps to understand what skills are available. Where are those people and what are the levers that we have to. Really we look at different locations. If we think about people from you know, different backgrounds, what does that do to the talent pool? And all of that kind of data and insight is instantly available now. So I think it's really starting with that kind of data led approach.

Speaker 3: 7:24

I think the second piece is just thinking more creatively. So I think the days where we can, as an organization, just go out and buy talent are gone. Ultimately, that's not going to be just focusing on buying talent into an organization A it's not going to be sustainable, because not all of that talent is available, but B it will just be very, very cost prohibitive. So if I think about one of the clients that we work with, for example, which is a global consulting business, you know they needed more tech talent, and so what we ran for them was a program where we took graduates, we trained them in the skills that they needed and then place them into their business with some ongoing training and support and upskilling for the first 12 months. So that's just one example of how you know I think organizations can think more creatively.

Speaker 3: 8:15

I also think you know another huge opportunity is really thinking about the talent that you have across your whole workforce, not just kind of FTE or perm talent, but also thinking about contingent talent, and I think that's another opportunity where you may have a particular need or role. But does it really need to be, you know, an FTE or permanent employee? Could it be someone who's a contractor, a freelancer, a gig worker? Could that fill that need? So I think the second piece is really around thinking more creatively, around trying to solve some of those talent strategies. And then I think the third piece is just around thinking more creatively around trying to solve some of those talent strategies. And then I think the third piece is just making sure that you know we have a very clear strategy based on the insight and data, aligned to that particular skill set and the candidates needs.

Speaker 3: 9:03

You know motivations, what, what they're looking for. Um, I think sometimes we can have a very generalist approach and versus really about okay for these types of skills. We need to think about this proposition. We need to think about how we proactively go and find those people. We need to think about that candidate experience what does that feel like for them? To ensure that we can maximize the opportunity of bringing that talent into the organization. Ensure that we can maximize, you know, the opportunity of bringing that talent into the organization.

Speaker 4: 9:33

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Speaker 2: 9:59

Okay, thank you very much. You mentioned recognizing contingent talent just a moment ago. I'd like to follow up on that point. So, when it comes to your contingent workforce, your gig workers as well, there's so many of those now right. How can companies better recognize and reward and engage those people because they are becoming such a huge proportion of the workforce?

Speaker 3: 10:24

Absolutely. I think there is an amazing stat I was reading that I think by 2050, 50% of the US workforce will be a contingent gig freelancer. So I think that's really interesting and I think typically contingent programs in many organizations have really been run by finance and procurement teams because obviously the focus is on cost and compliance versus really thinking about that population as talent within the organisation. Now I think over the last 12 months we've seen definitely a change in that strategy, in that that workforce population is now more increasingly falling under HR, because I think organizations recognize actually it's all talent, regardless of the contract type. This is all talent in our organization which contributes to our organization. So I think we've definitely seen that step change.

Speaker 3: 11:21

I think, then, organizations are working through OK, what does that mean? So how can we really identify the skills across our organization, whether it be permanent, fte or contingent? The first step is really understanding what are the skills that these people are bringing and then how can we utilize them effectively to meet the needs of our business and how do we, you know, to your point keep them engaged, keep them, you know, wanting to continue to work for that organization, to find a new assignment? So we're definitely seeing some of the practices that we see for permanent hiring now extending into that contingent hiring space. So an example of that would be creating talent pools for that talent to keep them engaged, talent pools for that talent to keep them engaged, understanding, you know, looking at silver medalists, for example, in that population and how we can engage them. So we're definitely seeing some of those practices extend into that contingent hiring space and more and more companies are using, you know, their brand to engage with that population versus third parties, and so that's something we expect to see definitely increase over the next 12 months okay, let's talk a bit more about skills-based hiring then.

Speaker 2: 12:41

Um, why is it so important? Why are hr teams adopting skills-based hiring more and more? I mean, this is not a new thing, you know. People have been talking about several years now. And is it more fruitful to go down the line of skills-based hiring than to try and find someone who's got certain experience, certain qualifications and I guess the other part of this is is AI? You know, I can now supplement so much of what one does the traditional qualifications and and technical expertise, perhaps not needed in the right way, but the aptitude, the, the personality, the communication skills are needed. So you give us your thoughts yeah.

Speaker 3: 13:25

So I think again, I think that the data tells you why this is so important. You know a third of jobs will need new skills in the next 10 years. That's a billion people. Um another stat I was looking at, you know 33 of job skills will change in the next five years. So I think the research, the data, tells us why this is so important, and I think what we can also see is how this increases the talent pool that becomes available to you. So if we look at skills versus experience or education, for example, which is typically how many organizations look at candidates today If we look at skills, what we know is that the talent pool increases, but also the diversity of the talent pool increases tenfold when you look at a skills-based approach. So I think you know, I think the data gives us the business case, I think that we can see where we have seen this deployed, what the benefit is in terms of increasing the pipeline, especially if there is a skills deficit, but also increasing the diversity of the talent. So I think the overall case is very compelling and I think from the organizations we speak to, I think most recognize that strategically.

Speaker 3: 14:50

I think the challenge then comes in how organizations actually operationalize it and I think definitely that's where we've seen a focus and certainly where we've been supporting organizations. Where we've seen a focus and certainly where we've been supporting organizations Because I think you know, we looked at our recent talent climate report and 70% of companies say that, you know, implementing a skills-based hiring approach is just too difficult due to the ability to train teams, the cultural shift and leveraging new technology. But I think what is really interesting about skills-based hiring, when we think about the implementation, is actually the technology is there. The technology, you know there's lots of different platforms that now enable you to not only build your skills taxonomy but also to match skills, whether it be internal or external skills. So, interestingly, the technology is there and continues to evolve and develop.

Speaker 3: 15:47

I think organizations then have to re-engineer their processes to support that. But the big piece actually isn't the technology or the process, it's the cultural change and that's where we can see organizations focusing in terms of how do they change that culture within their TA, hr teams, with hiring managers and leaders, to get that shift from education and experience to skills and actually understanding what skills are, because I think that's a big gap, both with hiring managers and actually with candidates, most candidates only recognize, I think, the five skills they have on average versus the 10 they actually have. So I think it's that cultural change in communication that's actually the big piece.

Speaker 4: 16:34

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Speaker 2: 17:10

So a lot of HR practitioners, HR leaders that I've interviewed on the show over the last say year or so they are super delighted that AI and generative technology and machine learning is taking over lots of processes. But what I consistently hear from them is Bill, we don't yet feel comfortable with passing over most of that power to AI when it comes to the sourcing and the hiring stages. We we believe that human beings have to still be part of that and there needs to be auditing involved and it needs to be ethical. We need to be aware that a lot of these codes are written by middle-class white dudes. Um, where do you stand on this? How should companies think about their responsible, ethical use of ai in the in the sourcing and the hiring stages?

Speaker 3: 18:00

Yeah, and I think this is probably next to skills-based hiring. This is probably the key topic we talk to many organisations about. So I think, overall, like I think we all recognise this huge opportunity for AI in you know, hiring talent and the overall process, and some of those are very, very low risk. So it could just be, you know, tasks that can be done quicker, more efficiently or improve the experience and basic things, such as, you know, creating job descriptions or supporting with screening calls, for example. But where the concern, I think, as you've highlighted, comes in is AI can unintentionally be biased against people just by following an algorithm, and certainly here in the US, you know you can see states such as New York bring in local law which requires AI that's used in the TA process to be audited every year for any bias, making sure that we're demonstrating applicants aren't discriminated against, and you know that's definitely going to create momentum. So, you know, I expect definitely other cities and states and countries to probably follow a similar approach.

Speaker 3: 19:16

I think there's a couple of things. I think we partner with a company called Holistic AI, for example, and that can make sure that we've got the right audits, controls in place and reduce any risk. So there are companies there that can support in managing that. But ultimately I think it's about how we use AI and making sure A there's a benefit. You know there's a business case so we're not using ai for ai sake, but also recognizing the importance of humans in the process. I think overall, ai is great to drive productivity and improve the experience, but it's not the final sign off for a hiring decision I know emra and adriano and the team over at holistic ai.

Speaker 2: 20:00

In fact, we fact we did an event with them. We did a Disrupt London with them last year. Excellent, nice bunch of folks. Yeah, agreed, we are almost out of time today, nikki, before we wrap up, how can folks connect with you? So maybe that's Twitter. Maybe you might want to share your email address. Maybe you're super cool and all over TikTok.

Speaker 3: 20:16

I wish and also, of course course, how can they get a copy of the talent climate report? Yes, definitely so. Um, I can obviously be found on linkedin. Um, my profile and contact details are all on our ams website and if you go into our ams website, you can also get copies of all of the talent climate reports that we've published over the last year excellent, well.

Speaker 2: 20:41

Well, that just leaves me to say for today, nikki Hancock, I've had a lovely time chatting with you. I'm going to pester you to come back on the show very soon, but for today, thank you very much for being my guest.

Speaker 3: 20:53

No, and thank you for having me, bill. I've really enjoyed our discussion, so thank you.

Speaker 2: 20:58

And listeners as always. Until next time, happy working.

Speaker 1: 21:06

And listeners as always. Until next time, happy working.