S2E9: Over-Apologizing and Minimizing Yourself

It's amazing what comes out of your own mouth, and at times, how much of what you say seems designed to "make yourself small" - to minimize yourself and what you're saying. In today's episode, I am joined by my dear friend and long-time coworker Emily Hastings, and we're revisiting the topic of over-apologizing with some additional tips and insights, plus exploring how apologizing, like several other speech habits, doesn't serve you. In fact, it can serve to minimize you and devalue what you have to say in the minds of those you are speaking to. 

Please forgive any audio issues, we tried out a new program for remote podcasting. It will get better! Also, I used a swear word. #sorrynotsorry.

Referenced in this episode:

• S1E4: The Effects of Overapologizing
• Poem: Our Deepest Fear by Marianne Williamson

More on minimizing in a future podcast! In the meantime, you can learn more by reading How Women Rise by Sally Helgesen and Marshall Goldsmith [affiliate link].

• Check out the Show Notes for this episode!
• Give us a review and ranking to show your support!

Transcript

Dianne: 0:01

Hi everybody. It is Dianne Whitford with Coffee, Grit, and Inspiration and this is your weekly Coffee Break podcast where we are making personal development accessible, one episode at a time. Today I have a very special guest with me, Emily Hastings. I've known Emily for a super long time, like 16 years or something like that, 18 years. We worked together for a really long time so I just want to say hi to Emily really quick.

Emily: 0:30

Hi Dianne. Thanks for having me.

Dianne: 0:33

I'm so excited to have you here. We're experimenting a little bit. This is the first time I've had a remote guest on the podcast. I've had Heather with me but she's been sitting next to me so it's been a little bit easier. So Emily and I are adventuring this morning and it's been really, really fun. So we wanted to talk today about a topic that is really close to our heart and that is over apologizing. So I originally talked about this in a podcast in season one, episode four and it was called the effects of over apologizing. And what it was really about to recap is that when we over apologize, when we apologize for things that are not our responsibility or not our fault, we give an impression to those around us that we really may not intend. Like that we are lacking in self-esteem, that we don't have self confidence, that we don't deserve to be there. And what's worse, is we start to believe that ourselves. And so it's almost a form of negative self talk. So Emily and I bonded over that initial episode. We've both been working hard on stopping that apology pattern. And so we wanted to kind of share our experiences today and I wanted to check in with Emily to see how that's going for her.

Emily: 1:37

You know, one of the really awesome things I think about that podcast and having you as a direct friend and teammate that I work with on a frequent basis, is the opportunity to have an accountability partner in this. As I was listening to your podcast for the very first time, I realized it came very timely because I had actually been called out by one of my peers on a call for apologizing repeatedly for being on mute. So I had been on mute and I said, I'm so sorry I was on mute. I said it three times in the course of half hour long conversation. And so it was very timely that I listened to your podcast that day and has been awesome to have you as an accountability partner to recognize the impact that this has had potentially on people's perceptions of me. And then to be able to, because we work so closely and so frequently together, have you challenge me. And even to know you're just watching kind of helps to"Oh yeah. Okay. I got to remember", you know, because even though I have now this awareness of the apology, it is still difficult for me to remember each time because it's so become a habit. So thank you for being my accountability partner and helping me to really stay, you know, in front of that and find alternative ways to show gratitude versus apologizing.

Dianne: 3:03

That is so awesome. I feel the same way about you. Knowing that someone else is kind of helping us keep track of the things that we're saying without even realizing it is a huge thing. And I think having an accountability partner, whether it's for apologizing or anything else, is really a great way to help yourself, help yourself, keep yourself on track, help keep you on track. A good, a good tool to use. It's a good tool to have in your toolbox. You know, when you're struggling with something and you want to change it, having an accountability partner can really help. And I feel the same way. Like when we're on calls or we're having conversations and I, and it just comes out of your mouth. You know? And, and I think you were saying as we were prepping for this for this episode that it is a work in progress. You know, it's, you're not gonna wake up one day and be like,"Oh, I'm just going to stop apologizing" and then you never have to do it again or you never do it again. I still catch myself a lot,"Oh sorry. Sorry." Because it's habit. It's a habit to say it and you think,"Oh, it's just a habit. It's not a big deal. It's just something I say." And that's true, but it's also- people hear it and then you, you just internalize it, you know. With all, all those kinds of bad habits in those speech tics or behavior tics, there are things that you internalize and they kind of become part of who you are. And I don't want to be thought of as the person that apologizes for everything.

Emily: 4:16

One thing that I did as well is, kind of in the beginning of your podcast, you started ticking off all of the times, you know, keeping track of all of the times you had said that you were sorry that day. And so I started going back and taking inventory of all of the times I was saying sorry. And interestingly enough, then I went and I started listening to some of the leaders both in, in our line of work as well as in my community. So as I sit in church and listen to my pastor or I'm sitting in, in other organizational things that I do, volunteer work that I do outside of work, and listening to people talk. You didn't hear the"I'm sorrys". So one of the things that I noticed is that those people would, instead of where I would say like,"I'm sorry I didn't understand", they would say things like,"I appreciate that approach, tell me more." Yeah. And it was really encouraging and engaging versus I almost felt like when I would say, I'm sorry, when I kind of again went back and thought about the impact of saying, I'm sorry, it was almost like I was making it about me. Versus showing to them, I appreciate, you know, whether that's them being graceful and understanding for the delay that I caused and coming late or I appreciate them, again, understanding when I bumped into them or or misplaced something or had to move something, you know, showing them the appreciation and the gratitude. I was making it about me when I said, you know, I'm sorry. So it was an interesting, it was an interesting way to take a look at how I could be perceived by others. Taking a look at myself in other people's eyes by watching how other people responded instead of saying I'm sorry, you know, what alternative phrases or the way that they would approach things. And it was, it was just an interesting exercise to kind of go back through and observe.

Dianne: 6:11

I really, I really love that cause thank you works in some situations but not all. Like one of the ones that I struggle with the most is when I interrupt somebody. That's right. It just comes out. I interrupt somebody. I know I shouldn't do it and I'm really, I'm trying not to do it and I'm trying not to fall all over myself with apologies when I do it. And there's in some cases like you have to figure out something else to say that is more meaningful. Right? Cause I'm sorry has no meaning. We think we are excusing ourselves or we think we're expressing regret to the people that are listening, but they're just irritated. That's kind of what I feel like is that they're just irritated and it's not, it loses meaning cause we say it all the time. Like when you say the word spoon too many times and it ends up not meaning anything anymore. I'm sorry, coming out so much ends up not meaning anything. And so there's times where we need to say something different and I love those examples that you just gave. I'd love to hear more about that. Tell me more. Like that is awesome. And then there's also times I think where we want to just not say anything, just oops or whatever it is when you, you don't have to say anything. It's just like a hit. It's like a tick I think in a lot of cases where we just respond right away.

Emily: 7:17

Yeah. I love, you know, I often do this and again as we talk about this is a work in progress. We're all works in progress and that's why we listen to you, right? Is we gain a little bit more insight into our opportunities and ways in which we can, you know, logically approach them and, and make a difference. Um, so, so thank you for bringing that to us. As I mentioned, one of the things that I've noticed is even when I say I'm sorry for interrupting cause I do that as well. Similar to you, I work from home. A lot of the interactions- all of the interactions that I have are via the phone. And so you have delays, you have mute problems, you have, you know, people really excited and passionate about the conversation. And so one of the things that I struggle with as well is interrupting people on the phone and what I've noticed is even when I say I'm sorry, I keep going. So I'm sorry I'm interrupting you and I'm going to keep going.

Dianne: 8:17

I'm not really sorry. Actually.

Emily: 8:20

Right. So is there any reason for me to say, I'm sorry and honestly I don't know what the right, but I agree with you. I don't know what the right way to acknowledge that I've interrupted someone and I'm going to keep going. Uh, I think in a situation where you've got someone who you know, you may be interrupting and you're going to let them go, you know, it's not an, I'm sorry, it's a, you know, please, you know, so-and-so, Dianne, please, please continue. Instead of saying,"I'm sorry I interrupted you". Please go Dianne. Please continue. But yeah, I, you know, I say I'm sorry and then I keep talking. So I need to work on that. That's something I think I need to figure out.

Dianne: 9:03

Yes. For the listeners, I am really working hard to plan out the podcast. So I have like this content calendar where I've been trying hard to come up with topics in advance so I always know what it is that I'm going to do and that my list just keeps growing. And the one one that I just added is active listening because the interrupting thing while we end up apologizing for it, and that's why we're bringing it up today. It is also, it means we're not listening. It really does. It means we're not listening. When we, when we jump in with our own thoughts, it's because the time that we're spending to listen is time we're spending thinking about what we want to say and so instead of just being fully present to what that person is saying, we're thinking through what we want to say next and I think everybody does it. I think everybody does it, but one of the ways that we can be better listeners is to focus more on listening to every single word and understanding, listening for content, listening for that understanding. And the interrupting will stop. When we do interrupt by mistake, because we get excited and passionate, just like you said, I love the,"please continue, Dianne, please continue. Emily, please continue". I love, I love, love, love that. In times where I, I have to, sometimes the conversation is going in the wrong direction, you know what I mean? And you have to jump in and you have to be,"I'm going to interrupt" and I'm going to keep going. What I, what I end up saying is, or what I've been trying to say, cause I do the same thing, is"Sorry, I just have to interrupt really quick".

Emily: 10:28

Yes.

Dianne: 10:28

I'm not sorry. I'm purposely interrupting. Right. So what I need to, what I've been trying to say is,"let me just jump in really quick. Let me just jump in really quick" or"I feel like the conversation is going in the wrong way. Let me just jump in and throw this out there for you to react to" or something like that where I'm very clearly saying"I'm, I know that I'm interrupting you". Sorry not sorry. I'm jumping in and I'm gonna try to redirect the conversation in the way that it needs to go and then I'll stop. And you can continue because we're, we're getting off track, you know, and there's times where we don't want to interrupt. We want to actively listen, but we also have to ensure that all the people that are on the phone, we're there for a limited amount of time. We got to get the things done that we are here to get done. We can't let people just go off on random tangents and not get our objectives accomplished, I guess is kind of where I'm thinking of with that.

Emily: 11:16

Yes. Yes, and..."Excuse me", is, is another, it would be another great, right? Like,"excuse me, I'm, I'm going to jump in here" cause you're offering, I guess it's maybe it's the same as, I'm sorry. You know, it's, I feel like it's less about apologizing and more like acknowledging"I'm going to insert myself here. I'm not sorry about it". Yeah.

Dianne: 11:43

I feel like that's a more assertive way to do it. And I think that's part of the thing with apologizing and, and there's another podcast that I want to do and it's about how we undercut ourselves a lot in the things that we say. Like I just,"if I could just have a moment of your time", or"this may not be important, but", or"you guys have probably already thought of this, but" you know, blah, blah, blah. All of that kind of verbal hedging is what makes people not listen or not take what we say with the same weight as what somebody else who just says, here's my thoughts, right? Like instead of, Oh, you guys may have already thought of this or this may not be important, or blah, if it's not important, then why the fuck am I saying it? I don't know if I can swear. Can I swear on my own podcast? I don't know. Abso-fuckin'-lutely! Sorry listeners. That comes out. And I'm not sorry, I'm not cutting it and I'm not sorry. Setting a good example. Seriously though, and this is probably yet another podcast, but I think it's all interrelated. We apologize. We hedge our words. We use minimizing language because we don't feel that we have a right to talk or we don't feel that we have a right to be there. We're intimidated by the people that we're talking to or for whatever reason we are minimizing ourselves and it is not serving us to do that. And apologizing is just one way of minimizing our presence and making ourselves smaller. And there's a poem I might need to go find that poem that you sent me because there was a line in there about making ourselves small and apologizing. You know what I'm talking about? And it doesn't serve you and and apologizing is a way of doing that. Hedging is a way of doing that. And when we need to take control of a conversation, when there is a meeting happening, we do not need to apologize for the fact that we are going to jump in and redirect the conversation. That's what we're there to do. You know what I mean? And I think it's a much more assertive way, a much more assertive thing to say,"excuse me, I just need to jump in really quick" and maybe not even,"I just need to jump in really quick"."Let's get back on track". Yeah, I'm going to, this is happening. Right now. This is happening right now. Can't stop it.

Emily: 13:54

This is the Dianne train and you ain't stopping it.

Dianne: 13:56

Oh goodness. My listeners were like seeing a whole different side of Dianne now.

Emily: 14:06

I absolutely agree. I think, and now I'm thinking back through our call yesterday that, but one of those calls I'm thinking, gosh, you probably should have called me out from an accountability partner perspective last week because there were a number of times where I did enter into the conversation with,"well we may need to take this offline" and cause I'm thinking to myself what I'm about to say may not be relevant to this conversation, but it needs to come out. Um, and to your point, yes, it is like apologizing. I'm just essentially saying the same thing. I'm setting up everybody to kind of shut down. I'm minimizing everything that's about to come...

Dianne: 14:45

out of your mouth.

Emily: 14:46

Yeah. Uh, so you know, I'm prepping them. You know what, don't listen to what she's going to say cause she's already admitting that it's not going to be worth their time. So we might as well shut down now go to Facebook or Twitter and figure out what you know, what's celebrities, you know. Clearly she has nothing important to say, but that quote that that piece of that poem is from our deepest fear and it's my absolute favorite part and it's the,"you're playing small does not serve the world. There's nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you."

Dianne: 15:18

I really love it. And that's what exactly spoke to me when I listened to it, is that there is a lot of ways, and I'm not even gonna say that just women do this, although I think women probably have more of a habit to do it than men do. But, but just like with anything else, there's no generalizations that exist. There's probably a lot of women that don't have the same nervous tic or tic that we're talking about right now. And there's a lot of men that do. So I'm not making any generalizations. I'm just saying, I'm just saying, just saying. See how, see how pervasive it is once you start to listen? Women...I think women tend to do it more often. And that is to, to feel like they don't belong in a situation or feel like the people that they're talking to don't necessarily want to hear what they have to say. And so they lead in with all of these reasons why you shouldn't listen. And it's an, it's an effort to be more accommodating and an effort to be more likable, except it lets everybody think,"Oh, I can tune out now. I don't have to, I don't have to listen to what she says" because, and whether they consciously do it or not. If I come in saying,"you guys may have already thought of this" or you, uh,"this may not be relevant", people are hearing this is not relevant. I don't need to listen. You know what I mean? And, and, and I think what my point was about women is I think women probably do that more often than men do. Although there's women who don't do it and there's men who do. So I'm not trying to make any kind of gender statements. I'm just saying it's something that as women in, in professional careers or any type of career, in life, we need to remember that when we say stuff like that we're making ourselves small. And that is related to apologizing because it is just another way of saying I don't have a right to be here.

Emily: 16:53

Yup. Yeah. And I think, you know, the, the other interesting thing that I've noticed and you know, you have mentioned how we've, we go way back and in multiple roles and in different environments and our paths have yet crossed again. It's interesting how, um, I think also a level of comfort comes with your confidence. Cause as you mentioned, I think it comes back to confidence, right? The apologizing, the belittling or minimizing what you're about to say. All of that comes back to confidence. Um, and, and that's why, again, looking at the leaders and the people that are around you, again, whether that's in the workplace or in the community, paying attention to how they present themselves, noticing that that same approach is pretty much nonexistent, you know? And, and I think that goes back to how they've been perceived by others continuing to accelerate them to higher and higher positions within the community or within the workplace. It's allowed them to accomplish that. It's not by circumstance. It's not like you become a leader and then all of a sudden or you get a higher title and all of a sudden you stop apologizing.

Dianne: 18:01

That's how you get there. That's part of how you get there. Yeah. If you want to be seen as that person, you have to behave as that person.

Emily: 18:10

Yeah. I think, and I think that's what's important to remember, right? It's about that perception and us being very aware about how, what we say, what we do, how we engage, how we show up, leads to those perceptions. And we have the ability. And I see this, this may be as bad as a four letter word, to manipulate that we or maybe influence is a better word, right? We have the ability to influence how others perceive us by just being aware of what words we're choosing, how we show up, um, how we engage. We can influence that. Um, however we want. And so I think it's great that these podcasts, um, the subjects that you're talking about help us do that in a very logical, not complex way. That's what you're doing. You're empowering others through your, you're empowering us to have those feelings, to not be ashamed of those. That's what I hear in you. Like when I, when I was listening to it this morning, I was like, yes, I am empowered and I am enabled to have those feelings and not be ashamed of them. So that's what you're, you should feel really good about what you're doing Dianne.

Dianne: 19:19

Thanks Emily. I know that sounded really cheesy just now. Thanks Emily. But seriously though, I love what you just said and thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I can't thank you enough for all the support that you've been giving me. It's just amazing and I feel, I feel totally empowered. I love doing this. I love doing this and hopefully you and everyone else that's listening appreciates the effort and I really appreciate hearing it. So thank you. I think we're about at time. There was a lot of really cool stuff shared today. So we talked a lot about apologizing and really the conversation kind of went into how apologizing is just another way that we tend to minimize ourselves, especially in situations where we're, we don't feel like we belong, we don't feel like we deserve to be there or maybe we're intimidated by those around us or whatever and you're not going to be able to just wake up and stop doing it. Right? You have to find yourself an accountability partner, figure out a way to really pay attention to the number of times that you do it. Pay attention to people in your community, people at your work that you admire, people that are kind of where you want to be. And and notice how often they do these things right? And finding, find somebody at your work that you interact with a lot of times that can kind of help keep you on the right track. You are worth being heard. What you have to say is important. Don't give the impression to other people that what you have to say isn't important. By hedging your words, minimizing yourself, apologizing, using all that, minimizing language. We'll talk about it more in upcoming posts. Hopefully you enjoyed this today. I want to thank you, Emily so much. You've are an amazing, amazing person. I'm so glad that I know you and I really appreciate you joining me today.

Emily: 20:56

Oh, I thank you so much, Dianne. It was a great experience. Keep on empowering and enabling others through this. Thank you for all you do.

Dianne: 21:04

Thanks so much. All right everybody. I hope you have a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful week. Bye now.