SEL in EDU
SELinEDU Podcast is stories and insights from outstanding teachers, administrators, leaders, and students on all things Social Emotional Learning in education. These 30-40-minute podcasts are perfect for a commute, a nice cup of joe, or a self-care walk.
SEL in EDU
060: Exploring the Transformative Power of Wise Tenderness with Meena Srinivasan
What does it mean to truly connect with others, and how can tenderness transform our educational spaces? Join us for a heartwarming conversation with Meena Srinivasan, a celebrated leader in mindfulness and social-emotional learning (SEL). Meena's personal journey and inspiring TED talk on the power of tenderness offer a profound look at how these concepts can create transformative classroom environments. We also discuss the importance of pronouncing names correctly, viewing it as a powerful act of respect and acknowledgment.
Through our dialogue, we uncover the multilayered nature of tenderness and its pivotal role in fostering empathy and compassion. Listen as we share personal experiences highlighting how tangible and embodied tenderness can be and how it can build bridges, especially among those with differing views. Meena's insights shed light on how tenderness can strengthen human connections, creating a more inclusive and compassionate world.
Inspired by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s notion of having a tough mind and a tender heart, we explore the concept of wise tenderness. This combination of vulnerability, compassion, and right action is crucial for educators and leaders in creating safe spaces where young people can express themselves. We wrap up with a celebration of life and well-being, emphasizing the importance of self-care and personal growth. This episode is a rich mosaic of warmth, connection, and transformative insights you won't miss.
EPISODE RESOURCES:
- Connect with Mina: website, Transformational Educational Leadership (TEL) website, X, Instagram
- Watch Mina’s TED Talk and explore her resources.
Welcome to SEL in EDU where we discuss all things social and emotional in education.
Speaker 1:I'm Krista.
Speaker 2:And I'm Craig, and we are your hosts on this journey.
Speaker 1:Hello SEL and EDU family. We are back for another exciting and amazing conversation. Craig, you are looking like a ray of sunshine. My friend, how are you?
Speaker 2:I'm doing as well as well can be. I'm just telling you. You know, it's just. You know, I'm like, as I look at the time the sun is outside, I'm a little close to a little bourbon, like life is good. I'm just saying.
Speaker 1:I need a bottle of bourbon. I got to get that.
Speaker 2:A little Knob Creek don't hurt nobody.
Speaker 1:A little into your cooking.
Speaker 2:Hey, that or a little Cabernet. We're going to see how the day goes, but you know, I'm feeling tender because we're going to talk about a little tenderness a little later, so I'm just excited, yes, but I think that what, where, where we are today, so it's like february 2024. Now, when we're recording, it will be a different temperature and vibe. You know, whenever you get to have, uh, have the opportunity to hear this podcast. But I think that, um, my morning started off a little crazy, rocky, and I called it robust this morning because all kinds of things were going on. But each time that we've had an opportunity to connect with some other dear hearts and there's an incredibly dear heart that we're going to talk to in a few moments I feel like I'm getting a little bit more energy. Right, like all of that positive energy is hitting me in a hard space, and I'm really most honored to be in space with our guests today. So I think that's probably what you're experiencing in regards to like a radiance that is present.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and for those of you who are just kicking in and listening to us, because of our schedules, we usually batch our recordings and so we get to spend some quality time together with people that we love and respect, and it was a bit of a robust morning. So if you're like, wait, you've said that word before, like yeah, that's you know. So we're trailing this through, but the really cool thing about community and connection is that we're lifting each other up throughout this day and it just keeps getting better and better, and so I'm also excited for you to welcome on our guest. So, um, craig, uh, take it away, let's hear it.
Speaker 2:Where are you all? It is exciting, um you, you can turn on a little Otis red and little trial, little tinnitus in the background. Uh, you might even decide. Hey, I'm going to put on a little Nina Simone, but I am excited about our guest today, dear heart, someone who I revere and love so much because of how much they have radiated in the global space. But for me personally, I believe I'm a better human being because of my connection to her Nina Srinivasan, mina Srinivasan Srinivasan.
Speaker 3:You got it.
Speaker 2:You got it. I was trying. I'm going to keep working on it because I feel like in pronouncing someone's name, I want to honor all that they bring to the world and I always get anxious. So this is actually me being very, very transparent and vulnerable about. I know that people want to be seen and heard and affirmed for the fullness of who they are and their name is important to them and so I shy away when I'm like I'm not going to pronounce their name correctly and I feel like that may dishonor I'm not going to pronounce their name correctly and I feel like that may dishonor their family heritage. So for me, I love Mina, but I also want to honor her name. So I'm going to keep working on it and I've been in community with her for years now a couple of years so it's my thing.
Speaker 2:But let's talk about Mina, because it's not necessarily about Craig. Let's talk about Mina, who is an incredible leader, speaker, author, entrepreneur, activist who has championed mindfulness, social-emotional learning and belonging. Mina has been featured as Mindful Magazine's 10 Powerful Women of the Mindfulness Movement. She's also been recognized in Education Leadership Magazine for her insights. Very much a creative force and author of Teach, Breathe, learn Mindfulness in and Outside of the Classroom, sel Every Day, integrating SEL with Instruction in day, integrating SEO with instruction in secondary classrooms. Also, mina just completed a TED talk that focuses on the power of tenderness and just unlocking those secret powers that, in our world today, is absolutely critical. And I could go on and on. Mina is also the founder of the TEL community, which is the transformative educational leadership which I had an opportunity for the last two years to grow and be nourished in and, as I said, a dear heart, and I hope that today you just come away electrified by her incredible grace, genius and care. Mina, how is your heart today, dear?
Speaker 3:Oh well, well, after that I'm like I'm feeling full and I also am just remembering back to my first connection with you, craig, which is through our mutual friend Rose, and she's like you got it. You got to meet my friend Craig and I just remember in that one meeting we got to really touch the kind of depth that you don't usually do in a first time meeting with someone and I had invited you to think about being part of our TEL community and you answered the call and are such a beloved member of our community and this is kind of mutual love, admiration, society. Here is also, as I'm getting to know, krista, and just really feeling a lot of joy and I can, in my body, just feeling a lot of warmth. I can, in my body, just feeling a lot of warmth, just being in space and being in community with you both all right.
Speaker 2:So we're done. All right, no, just okay. Oh my god. So I had an opportunity to see your TED Talk, which is already I mean, was just released last month and is already at almost a half million views, and you talk about the secret powers of tenderness, and I know that you have such a global footprint. And I know that you have such a global footprint. I'm curious for you where we are today, 2024, kind of top of the year what made you decide that you wanted to actually spend some time really having us do a deeper examination of tenderness? Yeah, what would would? Would center you on that being part of what you wanted to share with the world at this time that it's something that you know, craig.
Speaker 3:I know you and I both share this connection with the divine and that you know a lot of our work in the world and our work in education is really coming from this deep place of the sacred, the spirit, the heart. And, not to sound too boo-boo, although I do live in California, but the universe spoke to me about a year ago and it was so interesting, craig, because I've been involved in the world of social emotional learning for a while and it was when the Collaborative for Academic Social and Emotional Learning had put a call out for submissions and I'd been also for the past few years really exploring this, what it means to be a bridge builder, particularly, I think, with my identity as a non-Black woman of color, I really see that that's a role I feel called to play. I was exploring that and like working on the submission and like I kind of came to my meditation, because in my personal life and my spiritual practice, um had been really exploring a lot about, you know, tenderness, you know which I think is. I can talk a little more about um, about what I think it is and how I think it's something that is, you know, profound but often overlooked and that actually can really enhance our capacity to have a deeper compassion in the world. But you know, we're sort of having a discernment meeting and kind of talking about ideas and and, and I was like you know.
Speaker 3:I know that there's this, this submission and this bridge, but I'm really being called to, what I'm really being called to explore is tenderness, and oftentimes we're called to explore what we need most, right, just like that saying of like we teach what we need to learn most. And it kind of took me on this journey of really becoming intimate with what this quality is, and I found that I mean, I personally think that tenderness is quite magical because it is somatic, it is embodied. So just play along with me right now. Just take a moment, take a breath and bring to mind just something that softens you into a feeling of tenderness.
Speaker 3:Into a feeling of tenderness it might be, a pet, an elder, a scene from nature, a child, whatever it is, just touch into that. What are you feeling and where in your body do you feel it? And if your eyes are closed, you can gently open them. But I I'm just curious, and maybe this could be a starting point for us to kind of dig a little deeper and explore, because you know, this is all this tenderness kind of exploration is from my living lab and where we are. I am working with an emotion scientist and we are trying to do some deeper research and develop a conceptual model around this. But I'm just curious, krista and cra Craig, like what comes up for you when you, when you touch into tenderness, like from personally, professionally. Yeah, I'd love to hear from both of you.
Speaker 1:I'm laughing because I'm crying right now. Oh, just that was like whoosh, and I'm kind of glad we're not video videoing right now because I'm an ugly crier Like wow. But when you said that like that place of tenderness, the picture that popped up for me was this one of my boys when they were little, playing in the beach in the sand, and so I mentioned that Long Beach Island is really important to me because that's where we have family memories and my kids are older, 19, and my young, my middle, will be I'm sorry, my oldest is 22. My middle will be 19 next week and I'm like wow, like that just was everything for me that moment, and that I have a black and white picture of them at like ages Two and four and a half playing in the sand. Thank, you.
Speaker 1:It was a good, it's a good cry, it's like a good time Well let's stick with this.
Speaker 3:Let's stick with this. So, and then we're going to move on to Craig, but I want to explore this a little more with you. So you touched on your boys, who are now older. It brought up these feelings. You said it was a good cry, but tell me more like what were you feeling in your body? What do you think was happening internally for you as you were touching into tenderness?
Speaker 1:I think I, I, I personally felt like a tightening in my chest a little bit because it was such a magical moment and I hope that I valued it as much as I do now. In that moment, and then just the pride that comes with seeing people that you've created and nurtured grow up to be amazing human beings, and I would like to say that I think that they have tender hearts and that's what I want out in the world, like to perpetuate that.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So in this, like you know, less than one minute exercise invitation experience I I'm trying is this sense of time, perhaps even like the impermanence your boys are older, they were young and it's like there's a depth, there's a texture, there's a quality that is not in the head, that is in the body. I think that tenderness elicits, that puts us in touch with our humanity, and I feel, like you know, craig, you're like well, how did you come up? I was like I don't know, I didn't come up with this. The universe told me to explore this, but we have lost touch with our humanity, others, but we have lost touch with our humanity, and I think these tender moments, they bring us back into, like, the depth of what it means to be alive, which isn't, you know, all good, it isn't all bad, it's life, it's the, you know.
Speaker 3:We often say, in transformative education, leadership, the 10,000 joys and the 10,000 sorrows. And so for me, you know, just hearing you and experiencing you like drop into a deep place in a short time. I feel like there is just some great power in that, because we also are like conditioned not to feel right. We're like moving through our day and and I'm also curious, kristen. We'll come back to you after we explore a little bit with with Craig. Um, just what are the implications, to even explore a little bit from our lenses educators around tenderness, like what are what, what could be the implications of that? So now we're gonna move on to my brother, craig. I'll let you think for a little bit. But, craig, what came up for you? What came up for you?
Speaker 2:I thought about something that you mentioned in the TEDx, just about the fierceness of safety and you gave this really great illustration of being held and what I experienced was warmth in my shoulders and just around my chest, and I could feel a hand rub across my face, my ears, which is, you know, very sensitive space, but also like the crest of the back of my head, which, for me, just said everything is OK. And that hand represented different and it's interesting, like women who have done that for me from, you know, childhood birth mom to even to the late stages of my adulthood, and everything about that action is reassurance and safety, and so that's what came over me as we went through the experience.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I like how you use the word fear, the fierce tenderness, you know, this sense of being protective of, you know it seemed like there was like a maternal quality that it evoked, this feeling of feeling held and these women that were holding you and nurturing you. And you know, and it's so interesting, right, because this is something that and I say in the talk when you search tenderness in scientific publications, almost all the references have to do with meat tenderizers or physical pain. But throughout history, across cultures, this nurturing love, I think the human species, it's, our survival depends on it. And at a time when it seems really hard to give people grace and at a time where there's so much division and a time where there's such a longing for belonging like another kind of origin story of this talk and sort of this you know what feels like the next chapter of my work in the world around, you know, focused on tenderness. I was one of my best friends, was visiting, she's an anthropologist and I was really, really digging into this concept of radical love. And you know, and I was also sharing you know, of radical love and you know, and I was also sharing you know, radical love feels very abstract but, like tenderness, feels so much more accessible. And she put me through like she's you know, she advises doctoral students she put me through like an academic exercise and I think what ended up happening was this sense of there's so much pain, there's so much suffering in the world. What is one small thing that can offer a bit of a balm or a bit of a soul, a bit of comfort right now to help us deepen our capacity for courage and to meet this moment? And for me, I feel like tenderness, like I can have tenderness for someone. It's a lot easier to access than radical love. For someone it feels more accessible. Or even tenderness for ourselves. And even we've taught our son my son is five and even now you know that you'll say, mommy, I'm feeling tender, and it's just like everything will melt and like we all need to feel that warmth that Craig was talking about.
Speaker 3:I think another kind of calling around tenderness too is just, I think, as a woman, as a woman of color in particular, you know there is this like boss bitch kind of archetype out there which is like so not who I am, but it's like for me, tenderheartedness is an even more powerful way to lead in the world as a woman.
Speaker 3:You know, it's that sort of fierce tenderness, the loving, and it's very different from this boss bitch kind of like yang kind of energy. Tenderness is more receptive, it's the yin, it's this in some ways. I don't want to say feminine because I think men we all need it, but if I were to think about the archetype I think of, like the matriarch you know, and I think for a lot of women leaders in particular not just women leaders, you know all leaders, but I think at least a lot of women leaders I've talked to are trying to find their way to like honor their wholeness of being a woman and stepping into their power as leading and knowing that you don't need to do that in a boss bitch way, that you can do that in a fierce, loving, tender way and it does not diminish your power.
Speaker 2:We kind of went off here a little people like boy, homegirl really from california, the yin and the yang this, uh, this, I mean this is very resonant of an observation I'm having in the environment of, like women in the rap industry right now, um, and so there's Nicki Minaj and Megan Thee Stallion who are having this thing in a public square. So I'm going to talk about pop culture a little bit, because I think that it feels accessible in many ways, and so I'm going to embrace some paradoxes here. I understand that I'm a six foot three, cisgender, queer man, know, queer man in this America, who is also an educator, a husband and more so, like I understand who I am situated as an observer of some of the phenomena that I'm about to highlight. So two things that come to mind. One is Howard Thurman that talks about the sound of the genuine, and there's something in you that waits for, waits for and listens to the sound of the genuine. So thinking about, like situatedness, this Embrace of the framework of tenderness, why do I bring up Nicki Minaj and I bring up Megan Thee Stallion, and I think about this in the context of the young people we serve, and there are some women who may have adopted the boss bitch mentality, because there's a, there's a. At least my observations are there's a need for strength. There's a need for this unapologeticness in leading your own life, being authentic, building an empire, own life being authentic, building an empire, being unapologetic for all of the things that come with that.
Speaker 2:But what I saw lately? So we're in February 2024, right after the Grammys for those who are going to hear this podcast and so there were two songs. So there was a Megastallion who released this track, and it has a lot of what I would consider bravado in regards to how it showed up. And then you have Nicki Minaj who creates a quick rap track that then is going to rail on the body of Magda Stallion, really calls her out in these very, very inappropriate and, I feel, disrespectful ways. And so what I wonder for the public square of where we are, for the youth we serve? Our youth and everyone in the world are seeing these two women who are really influential businesswomen, creatives, who have put themselves out in the public square, and we've embraced the bitter with the sweet right. So we love you as a creative, we love you as a boss, we love that you are inspiring us by putting your life out here for us to find inspiration, but we also then simultaneously criticize, judge and try to dehumanize each other in these spaces and spheres and our children are watching this and figuring like.
Speaker 2:This is the way that I need to conduct myself If I am going to be of influence. I'm going to have this legacy of like I can't let people talk to me crazy. I'm going to make sure I get out on social media and say all these things and do these things because I want to dim the light and dehumanize the next person. I'm not going to let you just, you know, take me out. My concern is that we may not have that maternal figure who was calling them in and saying there's a different way. Maybe that is happening, but in the sphere that we can see, we're not necessarily seeing as many matriarchs or many maternal figures as I would hope that we would in my observation that would say, hey, we can do this thing differently, we don't have to do it in this way.
Speaker 2:And I'm just curious for those who are listening to this and like what I'm saying is resonating a lot and they're trying to figure out well, how do I balance the genuine nature of what I want? I want peace, I want to feel loved, I want to express tenderness. I want to, you know, I want to exude it, I want to embrace it. I want that, I want to feel loved. I want to express tenderness. I want to. You know, I want to exude it, I want to embrace it, I want that I receive it. But I'm also trying to not have the world dim my own light or disrespect me. Yeah, yeah, how do you hold that balance?
Speaker 3:Totally Well. First of all, I appreciate you bringing more texture and complexity into the conversation. And one thing we didn't I didn't get to talk about in the TED Talk and I really, you know, with some future writing, is just wise tenderness, right, and Dr King talked about having a tough mind and a tender heart and you need both. It's not one or the other. And when I'm talking about tenderness it's not, you know, definitely just only it's. It's wise, there's wisdom. You know you are so in touch with the situation and with your compassion that you are engaging in. You know what we'd call, you know, wise action, right action, wise action, right action. And so I think for me, and it's that tenderness is not, you know, it's not something like, you know, pollyanna-ish or soft, like wise tenderness is about touching into, you know, vulnerability within yourself and with others. And you know there is a great test to whether your insight, in my spiritual lineage, whether your insight's really an insight, does it lead to greater compassion? You know, if is this really wisdom, it's not wisdom if it doesn't lead to greater compassion.
Speaker 3:But you know, I hear you on, you know the lack of this compassion being a North Star for young people and I think part of that has to do with you know, I think we always go back to the adult culture in the spaces that we serve, that we serve, but, you know, in popular culture as well, you know, I think it's something.
Speaker 3:It's something that, like, I'm grateful that you're bringing into the conversation and, like you know, want to really ground this in what the day-to-day experience of young people is. But even if they have an educator or someone in their community that you know can touch into their vulnerability and make it, make it safe for them to really touch into what they're truly feeling and be that, be that model of resilience for them that in and of itself is really, really powerful. So I don't know if that, but you know, just wanted to add that, like it's not, it's not like tenderness, is not like one dimensional, like it's, I believe it's pretty complex and it's not just this, um, it's not just this, this sense of of, just, like you know, melting, you know, but it's this sense of seeing, of really seeing and being with what is unfolding, um, unfolding for others and being with their pain, being a compassionate witness to what's unfolding.
Speaker 1:I have so many notes written down from what we're talking about and what I'm hearing you say and I think I kind of have two pieces here in that, in working with schools around developing empathy, I feel that so many teachers in my experience were like we want empathetic kids.
Speaker 1:This is what you know.
Speaker 1:But they're all like like Craig brought up, it's not always being modeled by what the students are seeing on television with pop culture or politicians or in sports, and sometimes not in our schools with the way that the adults are interacting with them, and I've often thought about what foundational pieces need to happen there.
Speaker 1:And so I think about having the ability to take somebody's perspective in there. And so I think about having the ability to take somebody's perspective, like knowing that they're going to share something and that we're okay if it doesn't match what our experiences have been, and then truly listening, like a really deep listening, to what that person is sharing and taking us to that piece of empathy where we can relate to and connect to that emotion, even if we haven't had the experience. And I've often looked at compassion as being and you defined it a little bit differently, but we're talking the same thing is like a kindness with action and what doing that next level, but that often does seem like a really big word and unattainable, and I'm really drawn to this piece on tenderness that you're talking about wise tenderness and and that it's accessible.
Speaker 3:Totally. I actually think that like the magic. So you know this, the whole like compassion, empathy, vulnerability, is kind of like a chicken and egg thing, like someone say, oh well, you can't have tenderness if you're not vulnerable. But I'm like, but you can't be vulnerable if the conditions for tenderness aren't great, if you don't, you know. So it's sort of like this chicken and egg thing and I think that you know they've done research on teachers who, like you know experience like burnout or empathic distress. And you know compassion, like there's like in Ekman and Goldman's work, there's like the three, you know three types of compassion. There's our three types of empathy. There's the the cognitive empathy, emotional empathy and compassionate empathy. And like, ultimately right, the compassionate empathy is the head and the heart coming together in wise action. And I think that tenderness, because it's somatic, because it's embodied, because it's something that you can feel, could be like a magic link or, like you know, without tenderness, I think compassion can still stay very analytical and in the head and I think that there's some potential.
Speaker 3:And, again, like super early stages, like nobody's done research on this, we're trying to really figure out, like, what is tenderness? Is it just part of the wider compassion, family, does it have distinct qualities? You know it's still there's, like there's such a long way to go in the research. But you know, 15 years ago people would have been saying the same thing about compassion and now there's so much research. So I think that, um, that you know, there sometimes people would say you know that, you know, without, without tenderness, there's no compassion.
Speaker 3:And even in um, in certain meditation practices, um, I what's been shared with me is that tenderness is the tonal quality. So that's like the embodied state we're trying to cultivate in compassion meditation, that without that feeling of tenderness it is hard to really really engage in compassion. That is coming from like that wise space, but also that space of connectedness. And I think for me as well and Craig knows we talk a lot about interbeing in transformative educational leadership and interbeing is basically this sense that, like nothing exists independently, that everything is a product of infinite causes and conditions independently, that everything is a product of infinite causes and conditions and we are all it's beyond interconnection and interrelatedness. I think that concept can feel super abstract for people, but for me I feel like tenderness could be a pathway into feeling connection, you know, in a way that is not always accessible when we're in our heads Makes sense.
Speaker 1:It definitely does. And I think Craig and Yumina brought in another layer of it for me in terms of then thinking about the pathway to growth and success and a legacy. And so I know that I have and I'm learning the difference between a coach and a mentor and a consultant, and I actually have been working with a coach since last fall because I hit into this, like as a business owner.
Speaker 1:What does that mean? To be a boss? Like, as soon as you said a boss, I'm like, oh, oh, because I have people and they're like boss. I'm like don't call me that Like no, like cause in my head. I have this like stereotype, this archetype of what, and I don't want to be that. And so what does that mean? And I love what you're both talking about like grappling with how we can show up, especially, I think, as a female, in a space where we can be a boss, but not but and show up with tenderness and compassion and a different style, a different strength, still reach the same goals and growth, but do it without hurting other people, doing it with an abundance mentality and doing it with a sense of humility and knowing that we need to be connected to other people.
Speaker 3:Totally. And I think the important thing to name here is, in order to do that, it requires deep embodiment and not just emotional intelligence but a spiritual intelligence. And so you know there's some interesting work happening now, really expanding on those emotional intelligence competencies into spiritual intelligence. And in our program and our fellowship, you know I don't know if you remember Craig, we took the spiritual intelligence kind of, but like there's a whole body of research and work out there, because I think part of being able to to be a tender hearted leader comes from feeling so rooted and comfortable in who you are and your embodied identity. And that doesn't mean that you're not going to, you know, feel hurt. You know, at times when people question your leadership or criticize your leadership, but there is a pathway with which you will attend to any challenges or difficulties that arise and you know there there is wisdom. Um, I think that comes through that kind of consistent practice or taking refuge in something greater. You know, whatever, it's not about religion here. It's really about communing with something greater, understanding that there is a greater intelligence at play. Greater intelligence at play, and I think, in terms of leadership and like wise decisions, it doesn't mean that you're not going to speak up if someone dims your light or if someone's like, but you will meditate on it and you will take you will know the wise, compassionate action and it may look different. Right, it may not be just staying quiet, it might be saying something, but it's the way you say it. And so I guess what I'm trying to really lift up here is I think that tenderness could be a pathway into exploring our internal life and I think that a lot of the growth and evolution for the field of SEL has to do with growing and evolving in that way, right that there's so much happening and becoming intimate with our interiority and cultivating a spiritual intelligence. And I'm going to give you a definition for spiritual intelligence.
Speaker 3:Spiritual intelligence it's like I'm paraphrasing from Cindy Wigglesworth, who has written a book, and it's essentially being able to honestly. It's like resilience is really what spiritual intelligence is. But it's like meeting what comes your way with wisdom and compassion and not being shaken by external events. And you know I often talk about and you know Craig knows that my whole background in history in the mindfulness world. But you know, mindfulness isn't for me about, like you know, present moment, awareness and an attitude of kindness and curiosity. It's like no. Mindfulness is like. I am enhancing my nervous system so I can hold greater complexity and uncertainty, because the world is only becoming more uncertain and complex and we need to cultivate our. Our capacity like to be resilient is to be able to adapt, be ready for change, and you know that's what we all need right now, with the unpredictability of our climate and what's unfolding in our world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm trying to embrace the paradoxes right. I'm trying to embrace the paradoxes right and we've talked about that at great length and I'm going to lean in on some of my TEL learning. So, for those who are like, this is an introduction to like what is TEL and you know we spend a lot of time one cultivating beloved community. But you can't do that if you don't have an inner view, your inner being, and the work that we do is around co-liberation. But you, rightfully, are working in your own liberation of self in a community of witnesses who are doing their own work. But we all are committed to this better world, this betterment that we want for ourselves in the world. And when I think about the environment we're in, it feels at times very toxic. I'll speak just more here in the United States not to say that this is not an issue that is occurring in other spaces, and I think about the paradox it is and I'm gonna situate myself as a leader of color in in what I'm about to say. It is you have to under, I need to understand who I am and be authentic with myself first, about this is all of me and who's showing up in these spaces, and there is a radical re-imagining that possibly happens within your being as you're engaged with people, different faiths and beliefs and whatnot, but you have to recognize that the next person who you're talking to and engaging with is on their own journey, has their own curiosities, their own conditions that landed them there before you to have this conversation or experience. What have you and this could be someone who is your absolute, like they're the pro, they're the protagonists or antagonists, um, in your story, right, and how do you actually sit with them in space to still either have a conversation or move something forward when you have a radically different perspective on each other and how you engage in this work? And where, amina, you really, you really pushed me and us to think about this, especially one of the experiences we had at during this fellowship. We were out in new york, you know, out in this wonderful space, spiritual space and retreats, and I know for folks they're Craig, where are you going with this? Because you're rambling, sir, but I'm going to say this because I think that it's important for us to think about what is the greater ramifications of this in the education space for us who are trying to lead work, who are trying to lead movements and change work and you are really trying to situate yourself as, like I am, part of this greater light and greater being for the communities I serve.
Speaker 2:For me, when I think about tenderness and I think I don't just think about the like, romantic or parental or matriarchal, but I also think about that radical love where I know that I'm in company with someone who has a different idea I think about Bayard Rustin, who had to be in spaces where, legally, folks could disparage him, dehumanize him, could take him out, imprison him, but still had to situate themselves to say, all right, we're doing this movement, this civil rights event experience that no one has ever done before. We're going to do this march on Washington. And he has to have an absolutely unapologetic belief that his movement, this movement, is absolutely necessary. But I have to do this in partnership with someone who may have differences in how we situate ourselves.
Speaker 2:Tenderness for me is that I can still lean in with my humanity and yours and still try to hear you, actively, be present with you, and I could absolutely disagree with most of the things you say, but I'm going to always treat you as human. I'm never going to, I am never going to say something that's going to hurt you. I'm going to try to reflect back what I'm hearing. I'm going to engage in curiosity, but I'm going to try to reflect that back and I think that that level of tenderness is what will save us, right? I think it's what will save humanity. So, as Joe Biden talks about, you know the, he has a thing about what the soul, of soul of America I like, but I think it's tenderness and it happens in those moments where two people who maybe die about like just diametrically different in their views and perspectives, can also still come together and move something forward together and move something forward.
Speaker 3:Yeah, preach, you said it, craig, you said it, I, you know, I think. I think for me it's this um, yeah, it's, it's a softening in my stance, it's a curiosity, it's a willingness to, to listen, to see someone's pain, to listen to see someone's pain even though I may not agree at all. It's cultivating my capacity to be with their humanity and to also touch into the fragility of life, because we are fragile. What is that saying? The only things that are certain are death and taxes. We are fragile.
Speaker 3:I also think there's something here which part of tell 4.0 as we move through our next cohort, but this tenderness with the earth, and I think about our planet and I think about all that's happening in terms of the needs to happen in terms of planetary health, and so I think there is a tenderness that's not just a human kind of tenderness, but I love my husband been married for we still just celebrated our 10 year anniversary but it's a continual kind of like softening, coming back, seeing, seeing him, seeing his pain, seeing his suffering, being with that and it's almost like a micro practice, like babies.
Speaker 3:It's not something super big, like we can all find moments throughout our day. I think the other thing related to that to Craig, which goes back to kind of like the structures of our schools and like our society, is, I feel like, to really touch into tenderness. You have to slow down and I know me as someone that's working mom, aging parents, young child it's like, and I said at the start, it's like we gravitate towards what we need most and so for me to really become intimate with the quality and texture of tenderness as it manifests in my life, it requires me to slow the F down yeah.
Speaker 1:That I wouldn't mind throwing out to both of you. But, craig, when you not, I keep saying but, and that's not really what I mean. I mean, and when it? Craig, when I heard your story about what?
Speaker 1:And I was putting myself in the mindset of, or in the process of, when I'm talking with somebody who we are just diametrically not on the same page and I want to continue to treat that person with respect, I had this aha that maybe respect is not the word that I want anymore, because maybe it's tenderness Tenderness, because I know there's a story behind why that person is showing up the way they are and holding on to those thoughts and those values and the beliefs that they have.
Speaker 1:And I'm just kind of grappling with this in my head that I don't know that I could treat you with respect. But that doesn't mean that I respect you, and I need to dig into this a little bit more because I've used that word for so long. It's not that I'm not going to devalue the person, I'm just going to be more curious. But maybe the better word for me is I will still continue to treat you with tenderness, or aspire to treat you with tenderness, and show up in that space, curious about why you're showing up the way that you are. And I'm just I'm not sure, mina, if any of your work has kind of brought around or has tapped into that a little bit.
Speaker 3:Yeah well, I think the big aha I had was like you can't be tender while judging, like it's impossible, like really touch into it. Can you be tender if you're judging someone? It they, they can't coexist. And that was like my like holy shit, like this is like. Again, I've been on this living lab journey around. What is this tenderness thing? Why did the universe plant this in my heart and say you need to explore this and shit, because it's impossible to be tender and to judge at the same time. So that curiosity component is such a key part of tenderness, I believe.
Speaker 3:And as we move deeper into kind of this next evolution of the work we're doing on transformative educational leadership, I think we're going to invite our fellows to really explore tenderness and what it, how does it manifest in your life? What is you know? What is you know? Is there a power? I mean and for some it may not land at all, but I do think that you know what you said about respect, like even if I think about, like vulnerability, empathy, compassion, tenderness, if I were to like say those words and even let's add respect in there like what happens to my body, like it's different, it's qualitative, like, I still feel like it can get a little cerebral, but if we're really trying to honor someone's humanity not saying we are going to agree with them, right.
Speaker 3:But if we think about, you know what, what John Lewis said of, like you know, seeing the spark of the divine in everyone like we have to cultivate a spiritual technology to be able to do that, because that's really effing hard to do, right, it's really hard to do To be able to see the spark of the divine in everyone. And I, you know, maybe with your listeners, I made a little guide that goes along with the TED Talk. I had a guided meditation where you connect with your five-year-old self and you envision others as five-year-olds, and sometimes I feel like that's what it takes for me to shift into this space of tenderness. But, yeah, I, I, uh, the more I explored, I'm like, yeah, I can't be tender and judge at the same time. It's like it just does, it cancels, it does not work.
Speaker 1:So and I'm like, okay, wait, I have this Ted talk pulled up and we're going to link to that. And did you, did I hear you say that that that guide is accessible?
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, so right now, right now, the guide is sort of like a free gift if you complete our survey, but by the time this airs, we already got a ton of data and honestly, I'm like I met with my research partner and I'm like, oh my gosh, we have like a lot of rich preliminary data. I don't know we're going to close the survey soon, but what I'll do is I will email the guide to you all and it has a facilitation guide for sharing the TED Talk in like a professional learning setting or in any kind of setting and a bunch of different practices. So I'll share that and then you can link that when this is live, because I'm sure when the podcast is out in the world, the survey will be closed.
Speaker 1:So thank you for that gift.
Speaker 2:Gosh, we could go on and on and on, but one. I also respect our dear hearts. Time it is, it's good gracious. I'm kind of blushing. I don't know what to do with myself we're flowing over here this is thank you we're grappling with something together.
Speaker 3:That's the sign that we're on to something. That's what I feel. You know, there's no right or wrong. We're like we're, as we'd say, and tell we're mucking about and that's a good thing. We're in it. We're trying to figure out this tenderness thing. So we're onto something.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, uh, gosh, so much I'm thinking about Uh. So how do folks connect with you, mina? What is the preferred way that, if folks feel inspired, they would love to check in and learn more about TEL or the work that you're doing in this field. How would they be able to connect with you?
Speaker 3:Sure, well, you can. Just two websites you can check out Transformative Educational Leadership. We offer a fellowship and Craig was one of our fellows. Every other year we also do an annual conference in New York, and this summer it's on embodying courage and resilience and really focusing on climate, the climate justice work that needs to happen in our schools, and I also have my own website, minasrinivasancom, and there's a ton of resources, a ton of guided meditations. Um, you know, I do a monthly newsletter, um, uh, that has like a tip. Uh, this february it'll be on those three types of empathy and a guided meditation. So, um, yeah, stay connected. I'm on linkedin, um, and just grateful to your community, the seon edu community. You know, I think that social and emotional learning for me is really the vehicle for building a more compassionate and equitable world, and so I just want to thank all your listeners for tuning in. Our time is the most valuable commodity, and the fact that you spent it with us means a lot, and the fact that you spent it with us means a lot.
Speaker 1:Thank you, and thank you, craig, for introducing me to Mina, and I can't. I've been digging in on the website and look and we're going to link to all of the pieces, all of the things, for people who are listening. This has just been really incredible and very thought provoking, and I'm really looking forward to digging in more and learning from you. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much. Take care, oh gosh, sel and EDU family. This conversation today is life-giving, I believe. I strongly believe in all the fibers of me that this is investment in your own well-being. If it doesn't have to be for anybody else, like this podcast and all of the resources and tools and energy, this is for you. Um, it has been such an honor and pleasure to have you, uh, mina sreenivasan, here with us today.
Speaker 3:You got it. You got it. My ancestors are smiling in the ancestral realm right now. Brother Craig got the last name right.
Speaker 2:I'm raising my hands to the ancestors, wherever they're at Hallelujah, hallelujah. All right, loves, we are going to close this conversation, but we are never going to close our arms, our hearts to you. We want to continue to hold you and yours dear and tight and we just want you to continue to stay and stand and celebrate and affirm and ashe in the light. We love you and we look forward to staying connected with you. You take care.
