👩‍🏫 BIZ BTS SERIES: Shadow work: what is it & how it can transform your life & biz with Caitlin Hosking 💡

Welcome to the first episode in the ‘Biz BTS Series’ on the Mind School Podcast and this week Bre has a deep, intriguing conversation with Shadow Work coach and trainer Caitlin Hosking @complete_bycaitlin

Caitlin’s introduction to shadow work is so interesting and this conversation is a really powerful insight into what it actually is. 

Tune in to hear them chat about;

💡 Caitlin’s life before discovering shadow work
💡 What actually IS shadow work?
💡 The role of the ego in shadow work
💡 Triggers and what they mean about you (from a shadow work lense)
💡 How to discern what is yours and what is someone else’s shadow

There are so many gold nuggets in this chat especially around identifying your shadows and how they can show up in all areas of your life – particularly your relationships. 

If you’re a coach and you want to take your business to the next level, Bre is opening The Mind School Method to the waitlist with an extremely limited number of places available TONIGHT. Make sure you’re on the waitlist HERE.

We love hearing from you! Let us know your thoughts on this episode by taking a screenshot and tagging Bre + Caitlin in your stories.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Hey guys, I'm gonna start today's episode with what I think is actually a magical universe manifestation synchronicity story, which I think is just the best, I want to share it. So this guest who I am speaking to today is someone who I virtually met online. I think like back in June, maybe, I think it was around June of 2023. Because I remember I was in Bali, and I was balls deep in shadow work, I was studying shadow work, I was just in it. And then I came across this guest and working with this guest inside of her shadow work certification. Both of us many times were like, Oh, wow, we're, we're really similar, like really similar. And with that came both confronting things from a shadow work lens, which we'll talk about, I'm sure. And my thought of like, fuck, I'd be friends with this chick, like, I wish we lived in the same state because we would be friends. Like I feel that mainly just to eat sombreros and maybe talk about our dogs. But I was like, Wow, that's so interesting. Anyway, I came on Caitlin's podcast last week, and I put it on my stories. And one of my ex students DM me and was like, get out. That's my cousin's fiance. So I've messaged Caitlin. And I've been like, oh, you know, one of my ex students. And she's like, Yeah, I'm going to her wedding next year in Perth. Same. So we are actually going to be of all the places and all the events happening in Australia, we are actually going to the same fucking wedding. And you're not even from WA. And it's just, I actually thought that was the wildest thing. So I feel like the universe was like, here, you too, you need to actually meet in person. So I'm really looking forward to that. And I'm really excited to have this chat, because you're just a wealth of knowledge. And I'm really, really happy to have you here. Oh, it's so funny. I love so much when you sent me that message. I was like, I literally got the Save the date, like two days before getting on my sitting on my fridge. And then you're like, Yeah, I'm going to this wedding. I was like, Oh, Thank you universe. So cool as Yes. And we were like, both of us was sort of going but not really going to know anyone. So How funny would it be if we just rocked up and like saw each other but didn't know we were going It's wild. Wild. But thank you can't you know, we know. And it's gonna be so good. Because I can just like, spend time with so many people are winning, and most people just know each other, and we know hang out together, and it's gonna be so good. So that's my, that's my little story. Because I just thought it was so cool. And I know, I know, a lot of people listening to this just love stories of synchronicities, and like collecting evidence of magic everywhere. And I just choose to see this as an example of magic. So let's dive into all things shadow work. So before we go into the nitty gritties, of what it is, and how it shows up, and what it does to change people's lives. I'd really love to know, I guess, the deep backstory for you. So like, you're obviously really deep in the shadow work world. I want to know what led you to it? And was there any sort of like childhood instances, memories, any main pivotal moments in your life that you feel led you to exactly where you are now? Yeah, it's a great question. So I have maybe a little bit more of an interesting upbringing than like, what most people would probably expect from the work I do. And so I had a pretty normal childhood. My parents are still married. They're very loving, we had money, we had safety, we had security. I had a sister, she was fine. She was what she was. And, but I always had this sense of I don't belong. And it wasn't anything that my parents necessarily did, or anything like that. But I just felt like I didn't belong very, like in this world. I didn't think I belong to my family. I honestly thought that I was adopted until I was like, 15. And my mom told me about when she was about 15. And I was like, Okay, well, definitely not, I'm definitely going to say, and, yeah, so I kind of just was navigating life through this lens of I don't belong, and I feel broken, and I don't feel like I should be here for some reason. And so this led me to feeling very confused because, you know, I was I went to a public school, I would try to go to a private school and I felt like I belonged and less here. And so I went back to public schooling, and I had friends and you know, I could see their households and what they were growing up with and I was like, Man, I'm still so stable like, Why do I feel like this? And it's almost like I wanted to create the reason why I felt like that. And this is on reflection now like, I didn't know this back then. But it's like, you know, I would started ending up in like these really toxic relationships. And my childhood best friend from when I was like four years old, was white manipulative, quite emotionally abusive, like passed down her family trauma almost onto me. And so I started to receive a lot of that messaging, and then started taking that into my relationships growing up. So I was in these abusive relationships, like emotional abuse, a lot of control. All of that stuff. I was doing drugs from quite a young age. I, like very young, like, I was taking ecstasy at school and going was like, I don't know how I did. I had like, headphones on with, like, you know, this is 2000, sort of like being in music. And I'd be like writing my history notes and having losses it was, it was a wild time to be alive. I don't know how I managed it. Teachers didn't notice. I remember one day. So one day, me and my friend went off school grounds to get high. And we're like smoking dope. And so we came back, and I had sunglasses on. And this one, this is really creepy for a teacher to say this, but to it's also kind of funny. So he comes up to me, and he goes, Caitlin, I haven't seen your beautiful eyes for some time. Like, can you take your sunglasses off and show me and I was like, Fine, when I know that I've got bloodshot high eyes, and I look caught. And so like, my sunglasses off, and just look like dead in the face. And he was like, Oh, my God. And how, like, yeah, so I was just, I was running him out. And I was very rebellious, really. And I just wanted to kind of prove that I was broken. And so this kind of went on until I was around 16. And then I decided, You know what, I need a fresh start. I'm going to move halfway across the world, Canada. And so I just asked my mom, hey, we moved to Canada, is that possible? And then it was like, I had to get good school grades and all this stuff. So I turned everything around was like this Good, good enough student and got all these recommendations from the teachers. I'm not sure how I managed that ended up halfway across the world thinking this is going to, I'm not going to be doing drugs, I'm going to be away from those influences, blah, blah, blah, fell into the same patterns, right? And it was Canada, everyone smokes dope in Canada. It was like, and I just kept this like train of relationships, relationships, people cheating, I'm cheating, like, it's just a mess. And I ended up coming back to Australia a year later. Skipped you 12 Because I went to like a university bridging programme, and got to university because i Amongst all this, I was like, I want to be a psychologist I knew. So I went to uni bridging thing, got into psychology, moved to Canberra, and ended up in probably what was the most traumatic relationship. And he was very, like, I remember, I looked at a thing at this time. And it was like emotional abuse looks like and it ticked every single bucks. And I didn't know about emotional abuse back then I was like, Oh my God. But I didn't know what to do. Like, I felt so unsafe, either like, and I was so under his control that I couldn't do anything about it, really. And he would just tell me, like, he will take my food away from me and telling me that, you know, I shouldn't eat like that, and I'm fired, and he will never love me. And he would say, I'm not going to invite you out, because we're going out the boys. And then literally, I'd be standing there and he would invite another girl out with him and the boys. And would like I wouldn't be sobbing every single day at work. And everyone knew us because we both worked in the same place. So they knew that was happening. Do no one had the resource, it was like a bar. And that led me to going back on drugs. And I was doing coke at this point, some somehow passing University. And I moved back to Newcastle where I'm from and had a really fun summer, like how to get a free summer ended up in this other relationship because he left me so the other guy had left me move back to Russia, and said to me, I'm gonna go find someone better than you. And I was like, okay, so I ended up in another relationship. And then he left me because he was like, You're too needy. You're too much like you need to sort your life out which fickle, okay, fickle, led me to my rock bottom. And I was literally sitting and I wouldn't get out of bed. I wouldn't eat anything. I would just like live in the darkness. I was so depressed. I thought there's no point in living, I'm literally a worthless piece of shit. And then I was going to a wedding in France with my family. And then I was like, I don't ever want to go. I think I want to travel. I don't want to move like why are you making me go? But I had to go also, or whatever. And so I got on, I got to the airport. And for some reason I was like, looked at this book and thought I shouldn't read that. And so I picked up this book by Paulo Coelho and it's not the alchemist at all Was it it was another book and I got on the plane sat next is really hot Portuguese guy. So the first leg of the trip, we just got drunk. And he got off and went to Portugal and I went off to France. But my second leg, I read the entire book from cover to cover. And it was almost like looking into the future of this is going to be my life if I do not change something. And it also showed me I had choice. And so I started really getting to like personal development. And I was like, I'm going to better myself, I'm going to, you know, all of those things. Still long story anyway. But like, I kept bettering myself, I was reading like the Dalai Lama, I read every Paulo Coelho book, I was reading, like just anything I could get my hands on. And you know, I was going to the gym, I started eating while I was eating healthy anyway, because of my ex, but like, I was like, eating more and less on the anorexia side. And then I thought, like, I've sorted all out, I'm good, like, you know, I'm healthy. I'm going to gym, I've got a job, you know, I'm good. I'm not the same version. And it was about three years and actually gotten a relationship with that guy that left me that started this whole thing. So we got back together. Because someone told us we were kindred spirits, or twin flames or something. And I believe that was situations. And that over time, just got worse and worse and worse. And my eating was getting more restrictive, more restrictive. And I was training a lot. And I was very lean. And I was going to uni again. So I studied nutrition. And I just was fat. Like, I was so depressed. I thought I was back in that place for thinking I have nothing to live for, even though I've changed everything. And then I came, I went to like this powerlifting seminar, and part of it was mindset. And I was like, I need that I even went to a de Martini thing back then I was like, I don't need that. I don't need that. Like, look how much I've changed my life. And it was that mental who's still a very good friend of mine, who was basically asked me about my life, and then just goes, how's that working for you? And I was like, good, good question. Not actually not working for me. Yeah. And then I started to deepen into the mindset space, but still from that place of like, I want to be good. I want to like tick all the boxes and have all the money and have all the things and be like the shiny epitome of societal expectations, and then I'll be worthy. Yeah. And I ticked all the boxes. And were they still having a bad day, still having a breakdown, still self sabotaging, going, what's going on? I've got all this mindset stuff and still not landing, am I really this broken? So I was feeling what a shame. And then I picked up a book on chain, which was covertly a book on Shadow Work. And as I started to read that I was like, light bulb, light bulb light bulb light, like, every light bulb went off. And I realised in that moment, I'm not broken. This is all a part of me. And it's my job to learn how to love this, it's my job to learn how to integrate this. That propelled my business. It propelled myself love, it propelled my relationships, it propelled every single area of my life to like, where I am today, where it's like, I could be having a bad day, I could have like, repeated a pattern, I could have done something that used to like, break me. And I'm like, thank you guys, for showing me this lesson. And I never ever feel broken. And shot for me it was everything. That's so big. I have so many things I want to pull apart there. And I think what you said is so true. It's like, really, I think one of the key things that shadow work does is it dissolves people's shame. And it really allows people to look at patterns and look at parts of themselves with love even the quote, dark parts, even the parts that are quote, not good. So before we sort of unpack that, and really get into how Shadow Work can change people's lives, what how you know, signs that you might need a bit of shadow work for people listening, what in your, and I've heard so many different definitions. And it's almost it's beautiful, because it feels like every practitioner takes it through their own lens to a certain extent and has their own processes, in your perspective. And from your definition, what the fuck is Shadow Work? That's why I have a whole podcast on this. But I mean, I always explain it a little bit differently, and depending on whatever it is, but what's really coming through today is that it's when we're born, we just have this wholeness to us, like children just have that wholeness and they just express whatever is there and that's why we say little Timmy go and punch your sister in the face. But we'll never generally see that little Timmy punching a girl in the face when they're older because it's so wrong in society to do that, which is fair, okay, no one should be punching anyone. And so we but we have these innate impulses and we just follow them we don't know right or wrong, what is doing whatever people's right. And as we said to grow our parents and our society and the messages we get start to create a fracture in the psyche and in the nervous system. And as his fracture is created, we start to the ego is formed in here, the ego becomes that voice of right or wrong. And that's the we internalise a lot of the voices we heard growing up. But the ego is also just the gatekeeper of like, this is how I get my needs met. And so if you are high achieving white light, I don't speak unless spoken to all of those messages, then you are good, and you will get your needs met. Because every child has to have their needs met, and they have to be met by adults, because we're very reliant on that. And then it goes these parts of you about, and if you show them, you will have love taken away from you, you won't have a sense of belonging, you will be punished in some way you watch your sister get punished for that. So don't you do that, and you start to push it all the way away from you. And you over time literally forget that you will hole you literally don't know most of the time that these parts exist. And even when we think about wholeness now, there's still so many of us out there being like, yeah, yeah, I get it, but I'm not that. And it's like, Yes, you are. And it's our job to start to see that and bring that into awareness. So they're doing Shadow Work is how do we create this? We're how do we repair this fracture in in our psyche, and start to bring what's called the persona. So there's the shadow, the ego and a persona, start to like, realise that persona, who we're trying to be who we think we should be, isn't necessarily truth, that's just bowing down to stay safe. And realising that these parts actually aren't bad. We've just been taught that. And if we bring them into wholeness, we'll get more control of our behaviour, we'll get more control of how we feel about ourselves. And then we'll feel better. That was an awesome, I love it. And it's almost like, I don't know how to articulate it. But I feel like Shadow Work is really a completely different level of consciousness. Like when you are into when you see the world through a shadow work lens, you're seeing everything through so many different lenses and your judgments of others are actually a gateway for you to see yourself more. And that's why I feel like it makes you such a self aware human. And then you follow it up with the integration work with the healing work, and it just, it dissolves so much of the quote triggers that are impacting your life and your reactivity. So from that lens, how would people know I've just mentioned triggers, projections, judgments? How would people's judgments of others be an indicator of some shadow work for them to do internally? How would the judgments about someone's getting triggered by someone else? Yeah, what's going on from a shadow work lens? Yeah. Okay. Got it was like reword the question. We got it. So when we're being triggered by someone, and I just want to, like always put this caveat, because sometimes people can go really fucking over the top. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, someone's literally being such a con to them. I wouldn't say disabled. But like, someone's actually treating someone badly. I know, like, I'm triggered by that and must be a shadow. No, that person is triggering you because they're actually really not being nice. And the shutter here is maybe your inability to set boundaries. And so that's the piece that and so I always want to say like, look at your know your values. Know that people will trigger you when they treat you badly. And you shouldn't be triggered because it's telling you alarm bells are going off, hey, I'm unsafe, right now I need to move away from the situation. But when we're being triggered, because our partner left their socks on the ground, or someone is being loud, and they're not harming you in any single way, that's telling us that they're pushing on something within us that we haven't integrated, that makes us feel unsafe. And so it's not that it's a bad thing or anything. It's just like, oh, this person being loud. If I grew up in a either kind of two ways here, if I grew up in a really quiet household where I was told I had to be quiet all the time, someone being loud is going to make you feel unsafe because of the messaging. And but if you grew up in an abusive household when someone was yelling all the time, and you associate that with punishment and pain, that's also going to trigger you into being quiet and small. And so what it's asking of us to start to bring that out and go not that you have to have their expression of being loud or whatever it is that you're judging them, but go well where am I keeping myself really quiet? Where am I not using my voice? Where am I not expressing myself? And then as you start to bring that back, you'll not be so bothered by the person who is being loud, who's being the centre of attention, who's whatever it is, because you'll be like, Oh, that's so fine. Like it's just like that charge is just taken out of it because you see how that was a reflection of yourself. Now you've encoded safety into Your system around it. And then you're all good. So good. And so that's really looking at more of the get, I guess the dark shadows, the parts of you that are feeling really frustrated, really angry really activated in that way. What about when you're looking at someone through the lens of complete admiration? You've got them up on a pedestal, you're like, Oh my God, this person is incredible. I love them. I want to be like them. What would you say there could be going on underneath the surface? Again, from that shadow lens? Yeah. So when it comes to shadow work, we have a most people associate it as you said, like that dark piece. And it's like selfish, rude, obnoxious, loud, like those sorts of words that when we look from a societal umbrella are bad or wrong. Yeah, especially in a western society. Like, if you just look at how Western society works, you will see all of the shadows shadows, yeah, you'll see them. But we also have this golden shadow. And this is where we've actually suppressed our power. And we're seeing that power in someone else as a mirror. And so this happens a lot when when someone gets into a new relationship, and they just think that person is God's gift to Earth. And they're like, Oh, my God, they have so much creativity and so much love and so much theists. And they're so smart. And that like you just see it come out so big, and it actually blinds them from seeing any of the like, bad or negative things about that person. And over three to four months, those other parts start to come out and we see them and we go, you're not who I thought you were. And they're like, oh, no, I was always the same person I like. And when we start to see that, that and then we start to get pushed on. And so when it comes to even the coaching space, we see it all the time, like your minds probably have done it mine have done it. People doing it online to other coaches, they're seeing them being like this person's larger life, this person is like God to me, and they could do no wrong, even when you're like, clearly, sometimes they're not doing the best that people. And so when we're doing that, all we're doing is projecting our power onto them. And for women, for example, let's just say confidence. Most women don't feel confident, they'll be like I struggle with with confidence. And there's a whole, like, there's a lot of traits to unpack around that umbrella. And then they'll look at someone who's showing up online and using their voice and all that they'll be like, Wow, she's just so confident. If only I was like that. And that break of like I'm not that allows them to stay in their story allows them to not have to push on those things that are going to feel unsafe for them to be confident. What happens if I get rejected, what happens if I get abandoned, what happens if my family doesn't love me or my friends leave me or I change too much, or whatever it is. And so we tap into that sense of belonging and we move away from that confident person just enough that we still see them. So we can still experience a bit of it by not enough that we have to go Oh, that is actually me as well. So cool. And I love how you touched on something that I've noticed which like you said, it's so important to point out that it's important, we don't look at every single thing and go, Oh, that's a mirror or like that's just a youth thing. Or that's it. Because what it can do is create almost like gaslighting behaviour, where it's like, oh, well, if I triggered you, that's obviously a youth thing. And it's almost used for some or it could be used as a permission slip for people to behave badly. And I would love to know, like, from your perspective, how do you discern? What's yours? Like, what is your shadow work to do? And what somebody else's? Yeah, it's a great question. And something I've had to journey a lot, because I, especially women, women tend to take over responsibility. That's, that's generally the pattern. And until they get into personal development, and then they get really deep into it. And then they can start shift out of that. And they're like, I've got boundaries on all these things. And now it's your shit, I can't possibly be the problem. So depending on where you're sitting, it's going to be a little bit different. But let's just start with self gaslighting, because that generally tends to happen, especially like in a relationship. So if you're looking at someone, and you're helping them, and they're trying to understand their relationship dynamics, and the shadows coming out in the projection, all of that, they'll be like, Well, my partner triggered me because of this. And their partner might actually be behaving badly. But they're like, Oh, it's my trigger. So I have to, I have to integrate it, I have to do the work. It's always MY fault. And especially if they're in a dynamic where the partner actually tells them, it's always their fault, that that starts to play out. And what you'll notice with someone like this, it's really easy to spot in relationships is if you ask them, has your partner taken any responsibility here? And if the answer is no, then they need to start looking at that differently. Yeah, right. And then for the person who's like, it's not your fault. Where am I not taking responsibility? Is it really always their fault? If It was always their fault. Would this pattern still be playing out? What can I do differently here? How can I help create a relationship with this person? Where both of us are actually stepping in to that responsibility? am I expecting them to change before I can change? So if you start asking yourself these questions, you'll start to really discern what's mine, what's theirs. And when I had to journey, this, I journeyed this in a friendship as well. So I was the ability person, I was constantly I was doing so much shadow work, like, I was like, it's funny shit, it's this. It's this. It's and I did it. And I did it. And I did it. And I did it. And as soon as that person exited my life, I was like, oh, oh, it's actually not coming up anymore. I actually feel sorry, shine. And so that was when I really started to get into the piece of where are we taking over responsibility. And if we keep trying to change something, and it's not shifting the dynamic or anything, and that person still blaming you. It's so interesting. Hey, like, and I do find, especially for all the people listening, who probably do a lot of personal development work, do, they're always working on themselves, there tends to be and it's amazing, radical responsibility, right? Like, we talk about it all the time, like, all the time, and then there becomes a point where over responsibility is actually just, it's no longer serving us. So I think, again, like when you're seeing things from a shadow work lens, it's like, you're always looking for that fine line where a strength can become a weakness, and where a weakness can actually be a strength. It's like, you're seeing things from multiple angles and lenses, so you're able to prevent behaviour that is taking you further away from what it is you want. That's what I've found. So could you just give for like, listeners who are like, Okay, I want to put this into practical kind of real life examples. Can you give an example of either yourself or from a client, where there was a behaviour or a shadow that was kind of running the show? And after going through a shadow work process, or after doing a bit of healing and integration, there was a shift. So like, how can this practically play out in someone's life when the shadow is really running the show? Hmm, that's a great question. Just like letting what everyone's the land. Okay, so let's go binge eating, because that's a common one. And it's not about the behaviour. It's about what's actually underlying that behaviour. Yeah, so I had this client a few years ago, and she wanted to lose weight so badly. And she would go on all these diets and do all this crazy shit like Isagenix, whatever, all those shakes are like every single one, but she'd always end up saying weight. And she was so like, why is this happening? Like, I want it consciously. I want it. But it's not happening. So what is that piece. And as we started to dig into the psyche, and around this, this thing, she had actually created a shadow around skinny. Mm hmm. And she had pushed it so far away from her and her sense of identity and our sense of safety. And she identified as being bigger as being safe. And like, if I'm bigger, I'm safe. Everyone associates me with being like kind and sort of fluffy. And like that big bear mother energy. I associate skinny with my mother. And my mother was Mother was skinny as a rake. And she was horrible to me. And she was horrible to everyone and no one liked her. And so she's constantly pushing on this show, every time she tries to lose weight, and she's like, No one's gonna like me, everyone's gonna think I'm a bad person, blob like so that's playing out unconsciously stopping her from actually being able to lose the weight long term. So as we started to work with this shadow around being thin or skinny, or whatever it was, we called it, it allowed it to integrate in her to start to feel safe in that and realise like, there is no new people or shapes or sizes or colours, who can be really great people, or there can be total costs. And it has nothing to do with their shape, their colour, their size. It has to do with whatever's going on for them. And we actually get to choose how we are in any shape, size or body that we're in. And so as she started to go, Well, what does that look like for me? The weight started to come off. You start to binge eating, she stopped needing all of these shapes and diets and all of that stuff, because it was effortless because she wasn't fighting herself anymore. So beautiful. I love that example. And I want to like switch gears a little bit and start to have a conversation around the coaching industry, your coaching business and I would love to know, like following on that vein, how has or how can you see that in the coaching space or maybe even in your business? How sometimes, again, the shadow can be running the behaviour. This could be a huge conversation, but I'm really interested to hear what you see sort of happening from a shadow lens inside of the coaching industry. Yeah, I mean, I think it can play out in so many different ways. And I would say like, my biggest journey with shadow is in my coaching business. It's where I had to do the most work like yes, I've had to do in my relationship. But the amount of work I had to have had to do around being a facilitator being a space holder, my imposter syndrome, my golden projection onto coaches around me that they're better than me. I'm somehow inferior. Money stuff like the rich wind guilt. Yes. It's like anything you want to touch on. Like, if you just want to have a whole spiritual journey without having to do iOS go plant medicine or anything, just fucking start a business. 100%. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so for me, like when I started, I was really hooked into other people, and that they knew more than me, and I didn't know enough. And my imposter syndrome was so big. And the problem with that is that one I got lost in a sea of looking like everyone else. And so my business didn't go very far. I couldn't listen to my intuition and what was right for me, so I built a business, not out of my values, but out of what I think I should do. And I'll swing weight loss back then and hated it. Yeah. And I was like, I don't want to promote weight loss, like, Yes, I believe that, you know, if you want that goal, that's perfect. But it's not like promoting it a lot of times, like, if you lose weight, then you are worthy. And not what I'm seeing play out. Because comes when you see that you are worthy, exactly as you are. Yes. Not that way. And so all my values are out of whack. All of my imposter syndrome was like fights. I was projecting all my money share onto people who were making a lot of money. You're bad, you're money hungry. You're this You're that like so much. You are struggling with fucking money. So interesting. And so my biggest one around money was that making money is selfish. It comes into that like, I guess what we see, right? A lot of people in the in the world who hold a lot of money, a hold, hoard it and they don't give back. And it does. You know, there's some there's some shady shit happening. But for me, I was going, you're selfish, you're selfish. You're selfish. Like, I'm not selfish. That because I'm a good person, because I'm not making all this money. And I'm not harming other people. Look how good I am. So I started to look at that shadow of selfishness. And ask myself, How am I being selfish right now. And I got steamrolled by myself. I was like, Yeah, I've done this before with the selfish thing. Yeah. Wow, this is brilliant. I am selfish. And I can own it, too. Yeah. And so I saw like me, keeping myself small, not having enough money, constantly, kind of getting rid of it. I was actually turning in, like, I was being really manipulative. And I would try to manipulate like my partner, my mom, anyone who's around me as like, you pay for dinner. You get this, you get that and I would just I could feel it in my body that I was trying to get them to pay, because I didn't want to let go of my money. Because I was afraid that I couldn't get any more back. Yes. And so I was like me not having money is actually selfish, because I'm not giving the way that I want to. Yes. And and that was when this kind of major breakthrough happened for me, where it's so obvious, but you know, when it actually lands, you're like, yeah, it's thinking about water. And I was like, because I was doing this meditation around like money and water and all this stuff. And I was thinking about water. And I was like, water can be seen as like lifeforce. It can remind you, rehydrate you when you're thirsty, it can save lives. All like we need water. Water can also be used to drown someone. Yes. And it's not about the water. It's about whose hands it in. And we actually get to determine what we do with that resource. It's just a resource of God, it's just a resource on the universe. And so I go, Well, who do I want to be with money? Use it if I received it. And that's the relationship I've constantly been working on and looking at people who do good in this world with their money as well. And just making those decisions from that place, but the more money I have, the more giving I can be and that's actually in alignment with who I am. That's so brilliant, and I reckon there'll be so many people, especially with businesses who can see this playing out, you know, or I don't want to be salesy because then I'd be perceived a certain way, etc, etc. One of the ones that I really I want to touch on too, because you mentioned like, oh, no, I'm good. Like, I'm not selfish. I'm not blah, blah, blah, one that I find so interesting when you really dissect this behaviour from a shadow lens, people pleasing. And I've seen it probably in the coaching space, this is slightly different. But in the coaching space, one of the things that I've observed, and I'm sure you have, too, is people come into it, but they want to be the Saviour. Like they need to be the Saviour, they need to come in and save everybody. And that actually can be really debilitating as a coach and really unhealthy because it perpetuates codependency. And so that's one part that I think is just I wanted to add to what I saw about what you said about the money thing. But secondly, people pleasing, and I've seen people with businesses who want to keep their clients happy, who want to keep every Tom, Dick and Harry happy, who want to be perceived perfectly. And there's people pleasing playing out, not just in their business, like the business is a great mirror for everywhere else, usually. But what's going on with people pleasing, really, at the root of it, yep. We just want to belong. And people pleasing is that part of us, that's the persona, right? It's how we've learned to receive love and validation and a sense of belonging. And so if we're going and you know, a lot of the conditioning around women is you've got to help everyone else, you know, put yourself last sort of thing. And so you've got these people who like coming to you for help, and you're like, I've got to help them. Because if I don't help them, my encoding is that I'm a bad person. And so I need to sacrifice myself whenever they want. I'll do and you'll see that play out in your relationships all around like someone calls you and you're busy, you drop that you like cool, I'm gonna drop it I'm doing I'm going to come help. You're constantly calling your friends. You're overstepping your boundaries in every area of your life, and helicopter coaching. Yeah, it's something I had to traverse as well, because I was like, always, like, it's fucking 11 o'clock at night. I'm messaging my clients. And I'm like, are you okay? Do you need me, I'll get on the phone. And I saw that that was so harmful, because one, they're not they're not being taught self reliance and self lead, and they're not being mirrored back that, hey, you actually have got yourself you can do that's our job, as coaches is to show someone you know how to lead yourself. I'm just mirroring that back to you and to basically, amen. That's so powerful, so, so powerful. And I would love to know, so obviously, you've gone through heaps of breakthroughs and like the money thing was huge for you, all of all of the things that you've transcended with Shadow Work, you're in a place now, and I've been following your journey for the last year and it's so cool to witness. You're in a place now where your business is, you've got your retreats, you've got your shadow alchemy certification, you've got clients, you've done really well you've hit multi six figures. I would love to know, how have you for anyone who's listening and who is aspiring to be a coach wants to be a coach is growing their coaching business? How did Shadow Work, help to Quantum Leap you. So, as I said, like, a bit ago, whenever it was, I was stuck in this paradigm of basically people pleasing doing what everyone I thought, doing everything I thought everyone else wanted me to do. So it was that I was taught selling what they want, give them what they need. So I'm selling them weight loss, and I'm giving them mindset. And to me that always felt thought, to me that felt in genuine, it felt like manipulation. It felt like lying. But I was like oh my god, my business won't take off unless I do this thing exactly how they told me. And then I started to break that down. And this is kind of a folder Shadow Work era by I just went fuck it, I'm not doing it, it doesn't feel good. And I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna follow what I want to do and stop talking about nutrition, stop talking about training, stop talking about weight loss, and I'm just gonna talk about the emotional. That's what lights me I love talking about emotions and human behaviour. And so I started to follow that. And the more I followed that, the more my business took off. I wasn't doing whatever on said, and I have this memory of sitting in a room. It was like a business seminar thing. There was 60 other business owners women in this room. And at this point, my niche was self sabotage. And I put my hand up, and I said, Hey, my name is self sabotage. Is that something that you know, you think is good? Okay, like, I'm still I'm still kind of looking for the validation here. Yeah. And every single woman in that room said, No, I actually I don't like it. I want to sign up for it. I want and I was like, do my, I just I went home and I sat with it. And I said, Do I want to change this in my heart of hearts? Does it feel right to change? No, great. I'm gonna get going. And I just kept going with that until eventually, self sabotage actually turned in Shatta Wale Coaching. Yeah. And so it has been these points of meeting myself in that people pleaser in that needing validation from others in listening to what other people think is right or wrong and unwinding that. And going, it actually doesn't matter what the world says it actually doesn't matter what people think is right or wrong, because it's always changing, right? And what matters for us is our passion and what lights us up. And so if talking about weight loss, like every time I talked about, I felt shame, I felt guilt, I felt disgusting. I was like, I don't want to talk about it. So I'm not showing up on social media. I'm not building programmes, I'm not selling, I'm not doing anything like I'll get on the phone with people and basically not sell them because I was, I don't actually want this energetics was off, energetics was off. And then when I started talking about the things that light me up, and you know, even though I was talking a lot, I talk a lot to pain points I probably more than most people. But for me, that was so important. Because when someone started talking about my pain points, I stopped feeling alone. I was like, someone actually understands me, someone knows where I'm at. And so I don't see it as manipulative. I don't see it as bad. I see it as I understand you. And I see you and I know how to change this and solve this for you. So I've just kept following that. And I talk about what I love, I talk about what excites me, you can see like I'm like, excited about Yeah, and that's what quantum leap my business, I did what I wanted, I followed my heart, I created things that I knew were fucking in so important in this world, rather than I thought what people wanted. Yes, that is so good. And I think it's that it's that piece of personal power and authenticity. letting that be the guiding thing and letting the the energetics I think first and then the strategy, because all the strategies can work, but not if the energy is not behind it. And so you got your energy, right, you started. And, of course, doing that speaking with authenticity, speaking from a place of your truth, that actually takes courage that takes a lot of pushing your edges, that takes a lot of transcending your people pleasing, that takes a lot of owning your bigness. And you need to have the toolkit I find as a coach, to be able to walk yourself through that, to be able to coach yourself through that so that you can be the embodiment of what you're trying to help other coaches do. So obviously, you had that skill set, you had the mindset work, you had the shadow work behind you. And then you got your clients results, which is the other piece like you could coach yourself, and then have the techniques and the skill sets to actually give clients transformation. So if we were to look inside of your coaching toolkit, what would people find? Like what is that extra piece? Or like you actually get results? Yeah, so it's really interesting, because when I first started, I was very much just in the mindset piece, and I'll seeing results here and there. But there was so slow. I was like, Oh, my God is so slow. And look, everyone has different nervous systems. Everyone has different window of tolerance, everyone, whatever. But it was like across the board. Like that has to be something deeper here. It's not just the mindset piece that's helping, but they're still running the same pattern. They're still saying I want this but I'm self sabotaging. And so my journey into why was I self sabotaging and into deepening into that shadow work and cleaning that up for myself. I was like, it's not just the mind. It was how my nervous system was wired. It was what shadows were playing out and how I responded in my body and in my actions to those shadows. And so I started to coach myself in all these different ways I was using more embodiment, I was actually like, not just reframing a shadow, because it's like, you reframe something, you see the gift, you do all of those things, and your brains like bullshit bullshit, it still feels unsafe, I still don't feel okay. Yeah. And so when I took that into the body, and I started meeting these, these shadows in my body, and where they were living, and all of that, and I started to move that through my nervous system and actually create a new nervous system response around it. It just became easy. I was just like, I'll set a boundary, I'll have a hard conversation. I'll show up when I'm fucking you know, I still get scared, but I can just hold it. And I have such a big capacity for holding because my nervous system is so well regulated now. That that extra little bits of stress, or fear and all of that, like it's just not really full anymore. And it's like, you know, someone says all Caitlin you don't know enough. I'm like, great. Tell me what I don't know. Cool. I'm curious, right? I'm curious about that. And that lens of curiosity, both around what's going on in our body and what someone else is saying to us is the most important piece, then moving it through actually moving it which is so weird for people and they're like, I don't want to move my body. I don't want to be in my body. I don't like that doesn't seem normal. But that hands down, like visualisation process into the body. Move the body. Right, get the reframe. That's my whole process. I created it with myself and then that's what I teach my certification. And I have seen, like all of my clients Quantum Leap, I see people for four days in my retreats and they contemplate their life leaving that, because everything shifted for them. And I was like, more people need this process more people need to understand that it's not just the mind, right? We all want beating our head is not fucking floating around without our body like we are connected. Mind and body is connected, we have to start seeing it through that lens. Because the trauma, the wiring, what we've been taught is bad isn't a thought. It's a feeling. Yes, or a man, you just got goosebumps, you're speaking my language. I feel like what you do so beautifully. And we spoke about this a while ago, or the way I see it is almost like, there's a polarity of coaching tools. And it's almost like you've got the mind, the masculine the action, the reframe the mindset, the NLP, like all of those real, I would say masculine sort of modalities, which are fucking beautiful on one end of the spectrum. And then on the other end of the spectrum, is the emotional the feeling the like, and I guess emotional intelligence even comes into there, but the the embodiment and all of that beautiful work that you've been teaching for so long now to get people in their body. And when you marry them, instead of create a poll where one's better than the other. It's like you can Quantum Leap everything because you've got these two incredible tools that work together. Even stronger. Well, that's what I found. Yeah. And it's like, if we go because you use masculine, we go back to the original teachings of masculine feminine, it wasn't yes, there's a polarity between them, but Shiva, Shakti and married, they actually work together as the gods. Yes, that is what we need to remember, even in coaching is like it works together. Yes, bring it together, that's when we can quantum leap. That's when we can excel ourselves as when we can do all of these things. Because the mind is it is like, Look, you need the mind. Because if you're saying that it's not going to work, it's bullshit, this is stupid, it's not going to work is actually that powerful. And that's the placebo effect or not SIBO effect that's not studied. And, but it's like once you have the mind and the safety and that's why I love the science side of this design. sciency person and so help me understand as soon as I understand something, I feel safe, and I'll drop Yes. So we bring that in to create that level of safety because that's where most of us are living. And then as we bring the body and then we move some of that shame around feeling emotional around being angry around all of that. You'll just feel like, like the the reason why retreats code Ignite is because you feel like you've ignited that fire back. Yeah. Like, it felt like it was really dwindling. It was just an ember, but it's like, you'll get your fire back, you'll be like, I'm fucking on top of the world. I'm in my shit, like, I feel good. But with that embodiment piece, like, it's such a fuck around, because you're just convinced you're trying to convince yourself it takes years of work, like you know, just repeating things over and over, like, yes, it works. But you also don't get into like, your conditioning you don't get into your trauma you don't get into like these peeling will allow you to be present in your life as well. Like a lot of the time that mindset piece is so based on success, how can I have more more, more, more and more? And what we don't realise is that that is still feeding into your conditioning, you're still feeding into society if I have more and somehow more worthy then we're missing out on that feeling that we're trying to create more to have that peace, that calm that serenity, that happiness, that joy that flow like that's what we're trying to get from war and it doesn't exist there. Yes, sorry to have it now. It doesn't, it's not a there's no, it's not like a million dollars. Good job, here's your column, your happiness, you know, you'll still feel just as fucked. You will resent it. And you probably have a massive existential crisis because you realise that money the relationship, the weight loss, none of it solved, what was happening in your body and you can solve that now and then create those things and it'll feel fucking beautiful. Mic drop. That was the mic drop robot that was beautiful. I just love it so much. I love you. I love you, what you stand for and the way you've integrated such beautiful modalities into what it is now. So if anyone listening wants to know more about the work you do wants to come to retreats wants to do some shadow work wants to do the certification, where can they find you? So it's easiest just to find me at my main page, which is complete underscore by Caitlin. And then I have two offshoot pages of that. So I have the shadow alchemy Coaching Academy, and then I have the shadow alchemy retreats. So my process is called Shadow alchemy, hence why everything's called that. But I generally will put it all on my main page anyway. And then if you're like, I really like the content coming from either of those pages or you're specifically like I want retreats and I want to do this work for myself or I want to learn this work for my clients and also you have to embody it that's a big part of my all of my processes that you're doing this work as well and being guided through it. And I also have a podcast called Shadow Work WHAT THE FUCK WTF so If you just want to learn and you just want to like get it in your ears there are so many episodes and the way that I generally do that is like behaviours. So I look at like an episode on people pleasing an episode on binge eating an episode on you know those things and unpacking that from a shadow lens. So if you're looking for that, then do that if you want to get to know me more just reach out on social media send me a DM say hi. I'm very friendly even though sometimes people think I come off stern and blunt but I am very friendly. It can be both rising. It's amazing. I will put all of that in the show notes. Thank you so so much for being here and I will see you at the wedding. I know amazing. Thank you for having me. No worries. Bye