Unyoked: Tapping into mother nature

Twin brothers.

A unique vision.

And a determination to create a global nature brand against all odds.

This is the remarkable story of Unyoked: hear from co-founder Cam about his unstoppable startup that has overcome bushfires, floods, and a pandemic to bring sustainable off-grid cabins to the world.

Key Takeaways

- Creating a category is a bold move that differentiates your startup from competitors and requires deep market understanding, a clear USP, and significant marketing efforts to educate consumers.
- Having a co-founder with aligned values and life stages is crucial for a harmonious relationship and the success of a startup.
- A startup journey will inevitably encounter challenges, and maintaining resilience and a problem-solving mindset is crucial in navigating and overcoming these obstacles.

Have questions about this episode? Ask our hosts, chat now via our website

Transcript

Unknown: 0:09

That's the governing lawyers, the startup world that just whatever can go wrong will go wrong all the time, whenever you like, don't think it's going to. You're listening to founded and grounded with Ollie collard and Laura Rawlings. The podcast brings you the honest realities of startup life. If you're a founder or aspiring entrepreneur, this is for you. We know running a business can be lonely and tough at times, and we want to help you get ahead with simple tips and sound advice. Every fortnight we hear inspiring stories from an early stage business owner who's only a couple of steps ahead of you, talking about what they've learned. And as your hosts we share our own insights and experiences as founders so you can apply this to your own business. Hello, welcome to founded and grounded I'm Laura Rawlings. Hosting the podcast today alongside Ollie collard business startup coach. Hello, Ollie. Hey, Laura, how you doing? Yeah, all good. Thank you. Really nice to see you. It feels like we've had a little bit of a break in between as things have been going on. But great see today

Ollie Collard: 1:21

we have and what a break to have when the the weather has been like this over the last month or so. So yeah.

Unknown: 1:27

Last, we've been waiting for this. Finally it's delivered. Ali, let's talk about who we've got today as our featured entrepreneur, someone whose conversation I've really enjoyed listening to tell us who it is.

Ollie Collard: 1:40

Yeah, so I spoke to Cam, who is one of the cofounders of a business called unoaked. And essentially, they're all about reconnecting people back with nature. They have these sustainable, off grid cabins in remote locations around the world. And they are accessible to people in large cities. So they want to get people back into nature. But with less than two hours travel from a

Unknown: 2:06

big city. And they are as good as they sound, aren't they?

Ollie Collard: 2:09

They are amazing. I mean, if I had to sum it up in one word, I would say blissful. You've got these like beautifully constructed cabins with the most amazing like stunning views.

Unknown: 2:22

Well, I know he's got he's glad when you gave him that feedback. Okay, so Ali's already sampled this as he get the image, as you can tell there. But should we do a little rewind and go back to how this came about in the first place? Because actually, Cam had a background in something completely different, didn't he? Something very useful, but rather different? It was in banking. So let's find out what prompted him to set up on yoked with his twin brother, Chris.

Ollie Collard: 2:51

Good evening cam. Thank you so much for coming on the founded and grounded show. How are you doing this evening?

Unknown: 2:56

And thanks, man. Yeah,

Ollie Collard: 2:57

thanks for having me. Quite Okay, Cam. And I must say to our listeners, you are dialling in from Australia. So it's your evening. So really appreciate you taking time at the end of your day to speak to us.

Unknown: 3:07

No, no worries at all. We've we've been in the UK with unoaked for like eight months, seven months now. So we're getting used to these kinds of days.

Ollie Collard: 3:18

Which is safe. Firstly, Can I know your background is in banking? So I'm really intrigued by your origin story. So can you take us back to 2016? And tell us about what your frustrations were at the time? And what inspired you to start on yoked with your brother? Chris?

Unknown: 3:36

Yeah, no worries, man. I mean, I think paintings are hard words like I was in the strategy department then I didn't study finance. I dropped mastered your 10. So I don't think anyone would call me a banker by any chance. I was working. I was working in a bank. Let's say that. But it actually I guess it came from a lot earlier. So like, yeah, me and Chris twin brothers. We grew up in Darwin and then moved around Australia, a whole bunch. So for those listeners, that's like the top of Australia. But then we moved around like the whole country so that every few years as we were growing up, and I guess one of the constants while we were doing that was the outdoors, like, you know, when we'd move into a new city, we'd have new friends, we'd have new school, we'd just go into the outdoors. And we'd sort of go camping and things like that, and the hiking and gradually that went to overseas trips, which I don't know if it's the same over in the UK, but in Australia, like when you're at uni during the summer holidays for three months, like everyone just goes overseas and you go backpacking, you know, we went to like Nepal, Sumatra, South America. And so all these places where you'd be out in the middle of nowhere, and you'd come back actually feeling different. Whereas we jumped into sort of the corporate life and my brother Chris worked at General Assembly. So it's like a fast paced tech education startup, and he sort of scaled the office in Sydney and then went over and started at the end. Singapore, whereas I worked at Commonwealth Bank, Australia's largest bank, in a strategy department. So very different than where I am now. But you know, we were sitting there with spreadsheets and our screen till 10pm At night, like enjoying the jobs, but getting into that trap of just thinking that we were busy all the time that we had to be busy. And the holidays that we take would be just generally packed with so much stuff that we would feel quite stressed and anxious. And generally not that better afterwards. And the opportunity to have the little trips where you go camping or hiking or just disappear, they sort of disappeared. So what we were looking for was something that would put us out in the middle of nowhere in touch with nature, but being able to do it within our sort of busy city life. So be able to do it on a Tuesday or a Wednesday or Thursday, and then come back to the city. And that just simply didn't exist, like there was camping, which is awesome. And we still advocated a lot and do it ourselves. But it's a lot of hassle, right? You got to get all the stuff and everything like that. And then there was Airbnb, which was sort of starting around then and picking up really big. But then you've got like people's apartments, you got a whole tonne of neighbours around you, or it's just a piece a piece of crap house in the middle of nowhere that's like on a farm or something with power lines and everyone else around you. So it just didn't really exist. And we were like, Well, why don't we create it? And we saw we had a friend, a couple of friends. One was an architect, one was a builder. And we're talking to them about it. And, you know, there's no famous lightbulb moment that we were like, Let's do it. It's sort of just started happening. And before we knew it, we had a couple of cabins. And and then yeah, we can talk about sort of how it went from there if you want, but it's yeah, just sort of blew up. I guess, like we we realise earlier on that a lot of other people were the same as us are looking for this. But we didn't really quite know how many. So when we launched, we basically broke one of Australia's sort of most popular, like websites, kind of like timeout over there, but a slightly different version, and broke it for about 20 minutes. Because the web's there so many people wanted to read the article. And we just sort of realised like, Okay, we've, we've got to quit our day job soon.

Ollie Collard: 7:20

Absolutely love it. And I've had the pleasure of going to one of your locations in Wales. But for people listening, what is the unmute experience?

Unknown: 7:29

Question? So our our kind of mission is to get more people into nature more often. So if you think about it, like, by way of an analogy, like what headspace or calm did for the meditation, like it for most people, like there's a lot of people meditating before that, just like there's a lot of people going to nature before now as well. But we're trying to raise awareness for the benefits of nature, and how it can help a whole bunch of us in our day to day. There's decades of scientific research they had, but for some reason, we all know it when we're there, but we don't connect with it and realise, like, hey, you know, getting out to nature actually helps me de stress way better than UberEATS. And Netflix does. Or it helps me think and prepare for a big project or, you know, be creative way better than just sitting there like fluorescent box does. So we're trying to raise awareness of that. And then we provide in mercy of unique and secluded nature, easily and conveniently for people to get those benefits when they need them most. The way we do that, at the moment is through a network of Off The Grid, intentionally designed cabins that we tuck on private land, within about two hours drive or public transport access from a major city. We also design sort of every single little touch point of the experience from where you park your car, to how you grind your coffee, which is by hand to help you slow down and sort of turn it what's usually a routine into a ritual. And we do that across the whole experience to promote the way that you can connect with the nature out there. And to sort of slow you down and disconnect you from that day to day. So you can really get those benefits yourself and then get back to the city. Feeling that

Ollie Collard: 9:13

well I have to say come having the two day retreat myself. I completely agree with everything that you've said. I mean, from the minute we arrived, like the sign in the where you parked your car says you know, leave your worries behind like the small things like having the water metre there showing your water consumption. You know, grinding the coffee taking life a bit slowly, like the windows in the cabin, but the view how we were secluded in a field like I was saying to you before we went on there that yeah, me and my wife both live in a city, Bristol. We've got two young children and we you know, took the time to go away for the weekend together, spending some quality time together, but also getting away from it and as a as a founder myself, I felt you know, sometimes life can get quite stressful and just giving Good opportunity to reflect on everything that's happening, thinking about opportunities on the horizon. And just that changing mindset was really fundamental. Just in a two day period, I came back feeling like a different person.

Unknown: 10:13

Yeah. 100%. And, you know, like, people, visionaries, and founders, and artists generally have got this for like, 1000s, hundreds of years, you know, like, lots of people use nature, because they realise this, but for some reason, the most of us don't. And that's what it's all about is to help people get on your to be on yoke, to have that sort of feeling of, of freedom, and connect with all those benefits easily. And when we need the most. Like, you know, there's so much science out there, like, I think two days drops your cortisol levels almost completely, two days also boosts your creative problem solving skills by up to 50%. So, you know, instead of doing some brainstorming and trying to work out, you know, your potentially your fundraising situation, or our run pace coming up in three months, and stuff like that, and doing it in the office, they go out into nature, and you could actually come up with a totally different solution. With a lot, a lot easier.

Ollie Collard: 11:11

Yeah, no, I say very impressed with the ascension to detail, the entire experience from start to finish. And me and my wife loved the outdoors and go to the Lake District every year. But actually having that that space that was secluded, being in the field on our own, not seeing other people was just quite magical and quite special, actually. So it's what feed that back to you guys.

Unknown: 11:32

Thanks, man, that's really good to hear, you know what, I guess what we're trying to do is help people create what we call a nature habits. So it's, it's less about sort of going on the, like, the weekend for holidays and things and replacing like that lakes district holiday, it's more about sort of plugging that into your Thursday. So you're Tuesdays or, or like coming up around a certain event or a time or something like that. So it's sort of, we kind of explain it like we're trying to make people see nature, like they do the gym or meditation. So when they you know, you're training for a certain thing, you go to the gym, or if you're, you know, you're stressed or anxious, you usually meditate. Whereas nature out conflicts, a whole bunch of modern life's problems. And we're just helping people understand that and then letting them connect with an easier.

Ollie Collard: 12:16

The solution was created from personal frustration. I want to know a bit about what kind of validation you did to ensure that there was enough demand, obviously, you said you kind of built the two cabins and then did this article in the equivalent of Time Magazine there in Australia. But was that the point with which you knew that there was enough demand? Like, talk to me about how you validated the concepts?

Unknown: 12:38

Yeah, I mean, I mean, it's probably not to say this, but we we kind of just knew to some degree, like, you know, we, we, we were the target market, and we were the people that that kind of knew that this was out there, and that we're stressed. And working around the clock that thought that busy was a word that you had to say to every single person you meet. And, and this thing just didn't exist. So we sort of predicted that this was going to be a cultural movement across the world, that people would start moving to work more flexibly and be closer to nature. And it had already been happening for some time. Like, you know, bouldering, for example, is getting more and more popular all the time there. Bouldering gyms popping up show, you've got one in Bristol, knowing what crystals like. And those sort of things, you'd see a lot more nature in like car ads and watch ads. And that's generally because it's such a commodity that basically is so many different competitors of equal value. They use things like that to try and differentiate themselves when they actually have nothing to do with it. So the more you see them picking up concepts like that generally means that it's a trend that's surrounding a stay. We also did do some some classic research as well, though. So like one of our one of our best pieces of advice to people that ask us like, why would you give advice to new founders is actually that generally having worked in another job beforehand is a is a huge help. So you know, as part of the strategy department and my brother working in a high tech startup, we knew all about the sort of lean canvas we knew about user journey about being like we knew about all the research of different markets. So so we did do a lot of that like one of the biggest things we did at the beginning was that was the most helpful was Airbnb did an exercise back when those guys were starting. And they mapped out what a 10 star five star experience was. But they also mapped out from one to five and from five to 10. And we did that back at the very single beginning before we even had a cabin so we sort of was like what's the five star experience gonna look like for you? And then that's how we built the experience around that. Similar thing for customers. We did a lot of surveys we sent surveys with good old fashioned survey monkey around to a bunch of our friends and got them to share it and then to share it. That's how we came down with two hours distance from the cities for example, because we found that the vast majority of people were willing to drive three hours after work on a Wednesday to go somewhere like this. And we wanted to make it extra easy and even have a delayed for them. So we pulled that down to two. So we did a lot of customer research, a lot of talking. And just some planning around what we wanted things to look like, you know. And then it's kind of how we approach things now as well. So it's just a good, good foundation to kick it off with

Ollie Collard: 15:29

Austin, come and talk to me a bit about the funding side of it, you had friends that were an architect and a builder. But I assumed that the kind of startup cost to get a couple of cabins up and running was quite significant. So could you talk to us a bit about how their business model and the financials work?

Unknown: 15:46

Yeah, no worries. So I mean, yeah, that was, that was good old fashioned bootstrapping. So we, you know, with salt, like, we were in the lucky position to have had decent jobs and save some money. So it was mainly our own cash, like we sold any sort of shares that we had sold any sort of belongings that we didn't need, like old surfboards and stuff like that. And basically just patch to the cash together. It wasn't as much as you think, like the cabinets now are a lot more expensive than they were back then. Because back then, the first two were pretty basic. But still awesome. Like, you know, we, that's how we, that's where we build the business from, and got great reviews and all of that. But yeah, we just scratched it off ourselves, essentially, we got a little bit of a loan from the bank, sort of pretending that it was for a car. When it definitely wasn't back, I think, I think after the first kind of year to help with the next slide. But then after that, we were again pretty lucky and humbling position to be approached by a whole tonne of different investors, after we launched, like, we got so much media because no one had done this before. So it was quite unique and interesting. And it was, as we kind of predicted something that luckily everyone was looking for. So from then on, we were able to sort of fund via via investments, equity investments. So we picked a great handful of investors to come on board for that seed round. Again, not too much, I think was around 400,000. Australian. And that brought Chris in a full time, like we worked two jobs like this, and as difficult time day jobs for the first almost two years, or 18 months. And then that brought us full time got us six cabins more. And then a little bit of cash to play on some marketing and things like that. But we've actually, you know, we've kept it until, until recently, like we've kept it pretty lean. And we've sort of taken the approach of, of racing less in smaller amounts. And really getting to the milestones we wanted to, rather than sort of, you know, doing the classic startup approach of getting a bucket load of cash and running really fast and fixing it out as you go. We've sort of been a bit more, I don't know, if focus is right word like, there's nothing to say that one way is better than the other. But we really wanted to create a brand that was authentic and real, and stood for something and an experience that was the tangible representation of that. So we took our time at the beginning there to really do that and build the operational backbone that that we need to run essentially one room boutique hotels in the middle of nowhere, often without reception and hard to get to. So we knew that that was going to be a big piece. So yeah, we took it slow, on purpose, built those pieces. And now, you know, we're now we're in our sixth year, which is pretty late for most startups, but we've really started putting the foot down or in three countries and, and doing some really fun stuff.

Ollie Collard: 18:44

You don't want to completely go rocket fuel and blow up the business, you actually want to take it sustainably which fits in with your values. Yeah,

Unknown: 18:52

exactly. Like, you know, we sort of look to companies like Patagonia, some of our idols and things like that. And, you know, we, we'd love the startup space, and what a lot of guys are doing out there where, you know, we've never been one to just like, boom, or bust sort of approach, like we think does take time to build things, right and solve it. And especially, you know, when you're building things in the physical space, and and basically running a decentralised hotel, it's, there are a lot of different pieces to solve there. So it's been fun and exciting. And there's been ups and downs. But right now we're yes, we're in a really awesome position where we've dealt with all of that. We've proved it at scale. We've proved it globally. And we've sort of got the category creating an owning brand in this space that's expanding across the world. So it's a super exciting time to do some cool stuff.

Ollie Collard: 19:43

Excellent. And talk to me about how you find new locations and what diligence and research you do in regards to that.

Unknown: 19:50

Yeah, that's right. So you had asked before, when I'll take you back through how we found our first locations and then how it's changed. But basically The back when we started, it was definitely one of the challenges we had to overcome at the very beginning, like no one, no one had done this before. So no one had heard of it. No one knew what a tiny house was, like we said a cabin on wheels. And they were like, what? And, um, you know, no one, like Airbnb was picking up. So people were getting more comfortable with having strangers on their property. But we're going to regional areas. So often, you know, people hadn't been that familiar with Airbnb yet, because it was mainly in the cities. So we basically printed out a lot of postcards to start with. And we targeted one particular area south of Sydney, because of the type of geography and vegetation and because of the land sizes, and then we basically did a lot of, of letterbox drops. And it just had a website landing page had asked for a few details. And then we just made a huge amount of phone calls. So like I went, I was working at the bank, I'd like you know, cast aside some of my calendar time, put like a fake project name in there, and then go and just make a shitload of phone calls to landowners all day. And then, and then we'd go and visit them all, basically. And that, again, after we launched, that all changed, like we essentially were operating purely organically, with inbound leads, or for four or five years, we've only just like started turning on our first digital advertising campaigns last quarter, that's for the consumer and for the host side, which is really cool. Like, it's kind of humbling to know that the word of mouth is that strong, and just the brand is creating all that. But yeah, we sort of have quite a, I guess it developed approach now that where we take what's an intangible sense, when you get to a place of what it needs to be to be, like we there's a term that we use called Wilderness vibe, which sounds a bit lame, but basically, that's a description of like, when you when you get to the spot, and it's that tingling, the back your neck, it's that feeling that time slowing down, it's just that feeling that you are, you know, in the middle of nowhere and this and you're out there in nature. So we've boiled that down into essentially a set of criteria that we can now pretty easily pick a property, looking at some 3d mapping software that we've got, and a bunch of different tools, and then we validate it. We work with the hosts a little bit and do some research, and make sure they're our sort of right type of person. And then we'll send all of our scouts out to do the final check. And then from there, it gets put in the pipeline. And then once it's prioritised, we ship it out Kevin. A word about our sponsors. As a founder cybersecurity isn't top of your priorities. Yet Alliance has identified cyber threats as one of the top three risks facing business globally. This is when Nova blue comes in. Its founder Steve Mason, with technical director with GCHQ he was in charge of keeping the nation safe from cyber threats. He set up Nova blue to help keep businesses safe. Nova blue are offering founded and grounded listeners, a free cybersecurity health check, simply go to Nova hyphen blue.co.uk forward slash podcast offer. Ali less let's first of all pick up then on the point that you asked him about which was around validating the concept. So how do you know? How do you know you're on something? And how do you know when you've actually done enough research in the first place? Are these people representative? Do I know enough to attract funding? Do I know enough to build something? Do I know enough to flog you know or remortgage part of my house? These are these are important questions, aren't they? And it was interesting how they started from the position of where we did something which we were the target market for actually, we had a hunch. And there are lots more people like us. And it turned out that's right, and then drawing on their work, previous work experiences to help them. But yeah, as ever really interesting to hear how they got to the stage that they are now in those very early days.

Ollie Collard: 24:06

I love businesses that are started by people who were trying to solve their own problem, because they really understand the problem in a very deep and meaningful way. They were obviously frustrated, you know, why didn't something better exist. And I think that a lot of great businesses are started like this. I think the benefits of starting a business when you're your own customer are that you you obviously know yourself inside out. But also you've got friends who are like minded, and you've got access to them. So what I would say is you've got a really deep understanding of your ideal customer, how they think, what they desire, what their frustrations are. But I guess on the flip side, sometimes what founders can do is they can overcompensate for that, so that they kind of get a bit of a kind of an echo chamber. So you're telling all your mates about this great idea and they're saying yeah, great. Go for it. Yeah, But really, you've got to get objective feedback from the market. But I think ultimately, I think Ken was quite honest about this. They had this kind of gut feeling that this was a real problem, and it was just going to work. And obviously, that was quickly validated by this press release that went viral soon after. And they obviously went on to do a lot more research, post launch as well. But I think when they initially press that launch button, they did it with a sort of inner confidence.

Unknown: 25:31

And it is that inner confidence, confidence, isn't it that, you know, at points, I've definitely liked that I've thought, oh, this would be a great idea, because I really like it. And there must be other people who would really like it. And then kind of stumbled to that point thinking, Oh, I don't quite know how, how the next bit sort of happens. And I suspect that something that can, that does happen to other people as well. But listening to them reminds me that, you know, we should have that confidence. And then you take it, you take it forward. And of course you do wider surveys and testing the market and everything that they did, but that's a good, that's a good enough starting point. You know, it actually, I suppose what we're saying to anyone listening is, if this resonates with you, if there's something we use, but there is a gap in the market, something that you think you would benefit from, and friends or other people have a similar sort of community to you, then that's, that's good enough to to make a start. So, you know, take a bit of confidence from these guys story, because they are, they are proof of that, aren't they? On the subject of growth and raising enough money, I also thought was positive to hear how they kind of started off, you know, looking around the room going, what can we sell or sell our surfboard, you know, to raise to raise the money because I think it's easy to look at where someone is now. And if you look at their website, now it's beautiful. You see their cabins, you have their, you know, their, they are also blissful. But look, let's take it right back, this started in this in this way, a couple of guys selling their stuff, doing it alongside other work as well. And they have gradually grown it to what it is now as well. It's gone beyond a couple of cabins. I think it's easy to forget that isn't it or to just yeah, be put off by the shiny brilliance of what the end result of several years of hard work is.

Ollie Collard: 27:21

Yeah, and I love going back to that origin of exactly when it started, because as you say, selling some of their personal items that they could use to fund the business but also bringing some friends in terms of builders and architects and you just kind of have that hustle about you to kind of put in favours left, right and centre to get things off the ground. I think that's how you go from that initial idea to actually making something a reality. What I really love that I did smile about this was how they got their initial bank loan, because obviously, getting a loan for a business that hasn't got any trading history is very hard, no matter where you are in the world. Here in the UK, we have the startup loan scheme to obviously bridge that gap. But it is still quite hard and comprehensive to get approved for funding. And I know that firsthand from working on the scheme for over five years. So I really love what these guys said, they went out and got a loan for a fictitious car to obviously fund the business and get it off the ground. Because it's a lot quicker. And it's just easier. There's less barriers and friction to actually getting that money.

Unknown: 28:27

Yeah, briefly two things. Number one, if you were going for a loan, I mean, the bank manager is going to expect you to have put in what you can put in you know if they come if they come around your house and see the you've got a really nice car on the drive. And you've got a lovely fish tank with loads of fish. And they might be like, Why haven't you invested a bit more of your own stuff in it? So there is that expectation? I guess, too, but also, Olli? Is that how you mentioned the startup loan? People might not know of that? Where would you go to find out about it? And what sort of money are you talking about?

Ollie Collard: 28:59

Yeah, so if you go on to the startup loans website, if you just Google it, if you're here in the UK, essentially, it's a personal loan that's being used for business purposes, you can apply for up to 25 grand per director of the business up to a maximum of 100k. Obviously, if there's four co founders,

Unknown: 29:19

so you need to be a limited company. No, you don't need to be a limited company.

Ollie Collard: 29:23

You can be a sole trader as well, but it is a personal loans. You are personally liable for that. So we obviously look at things like your contingency plan. You know, what happens if it goes wrong? How are you going to repay the money? Okay, so yeah, a really good resource to get get your business off the ground. On average, people get around sort of 12,000 pounds,

Unknown: 29:42

okay, yes, about like a car loan, like you say, in the old days, they're also more expensive now. Okay, cool. That's handy. Let's move on then to the next part. And so now we know they're doing really well. They've got quite a few cabins from a couple of cabins to at all In various different countries and plans to go elsewhere to, but of course, they've been experiencing and dealing with failures along the way that's part of the parcel, and they've learned plenty of lessons which they're going to share with us. It's a good question. It's, it's hard to know, because like, I and like, you know, I'm not, we're usually pretty, like pretty humble guys. So not sort of saying this in by way of history, but I haven't really been in many failures. It's more just like, a Murphy's Law kind of thing. Like, you know, that's, that's the governing law of the startup world, that just whatever can go wrong will go wrong all the time, whenever you like, don't think it's going to. So I don't know, like we one of the very early things like, you know, we research like, for example, we got composting toilets in the cabins, right? So that's basically yet like what you think it is. But early model was a little bit different. There weren't many on the market back then. So there's like one supplier for the whole of Australia. And we started cleaning the cabins ourselves, because we wanted to take the operations back to first principles and build them from the ground up to be as scalable as possible. So that would be me every now and then driving down two hours from the city before a board meeting at the bank in my in my like work attire to go and empty a composting toilet, and then hope that I didn't get any of it on me. And then going back to the city, like for 8am for a meeting. So that was, that was definitely interesting. And like, you know, you think you've worked hard until you're doing that at like, you know, 4am going to have to do that. But what what else? I mean, we've been through a lot like we've been through, you know, once in a lifetime bushfires we've been in for like, once in a lifetime floods, which did, I'm starting to sound like the media now. But it's ridiculous and COVID as well, right. So we've had kind of everything thrown at us. And now it's a recession. We've had sort of everything thrown at us every single year. And it's just about basically being resilient, keeping positive. And approaching everything is sort of a problem solving mindset. Like it's, and then luckily, the business that we've built is about helping people access places that can make you feel better and de stress. So we definitely take advantage of our own products, a shitload of the time as well. Which, which really helps the whole time, you know, if you've just gone through crazy bushfires, and then suddenly, that you can see that COVID Is there, like you need some time outdoors.

Ollie Collard: 32:40

Love that. Love that getting high on your own supply that in a good way. Excellent. And obviously, you guys are past the five year point of trading, which, you know, most startups up to 90% fail before then, I want to know a bit about working with your twin, Chris, what what, what are the plus sides of that? But also, what are the downsides?

Unknown: 33:01

Great question. I mean, the plus sides, like, I guess from the fundraising perspective, like a big thing for investors is founder risk. It's something that they don't usually talk to you about. But it's definitely in the back of their mind. Like if you're two co founders that have just met on some co founding dating site, and you've got an idea. Like, that's a huge risk, right? Because they don't know your dynamics, they don't know how you're gonna go. And the statistics are that most co founders do, like they fail because of incompatibility. When you're 20, that doesn't happen. You know, your blood is thicker than whatever they say. But it's, you know, you know that, you're never going to have that opportunity that there's never going to be that sort of worry there. So from the fundraising perspective, it's a big tick. Personally, it's also great, like we were twins, but from very early age, I made sure that we were always in different classes, always in different groups at school and stuff like that. So we weren't the same people like the twins, we were different individuals. So while we've been quite different people have different personalities, we've also obviously had a lot of the same experiences for the last 36 years. So we come at problems from very different perspectives and very different sides, but will often reach the same conclusion together. So that's sort of, I guess, built in us and the DNA of the business, like a huge amount of collaboration for like creative collaboration for how we get to ideas, but it also makes us value different perspectives and, and sort of check a whole bunch of different actions and angles before we get to an answer rather than jumping to it. On the downside of that, you we have got, you know, a lot of shared experiences for 36 years. It's, you sometimes come in with assumptions or with certain feelings and stuff like that. So you know, I'd be lying to say that there's never an argument, but it's it's usually pretty good and I think all in all, it's yet super powerful thing.

Ollie Collard: 35:00

I imagine you get to the bottom of the argument quicker than most co founders with because you can be so open and honest with each other because you know each other so well. So outside of obviously, Chris, who do you call when things aren't going to plan?

Unknown: 35:14

Probably a couple of my mates to be honest. I mean, I mean, my partner, obviously, as well, like the my girlfriend Aireon. Like we confide in each other a lot of that stuff. And like, even though, you know, she's not in the startup sort of world, and like is, I guess, a bit shielded from a lot of the day to day and the stuff that you as a founder will go through. It's such a great sounding board for so many things. One of the biggest benefits that we've got, yeah, our friends who are founders, though, like a network of founders, and people that are going through the same shit, like they're looking at runway and things, and be like, what are we going to do? They're dealing with, like difficult investors, they're dealing with, like, all kinds of Murphy's Law, like, it does help just having a little bit of a bitch sometimes, and getting that off your chest. And so yeah, that I think, founders and then and then just good mates, like, I think it's just such a cool thing to have a strong support network and some friends around you and make sure you're not pushing them away, as you're sort of super head down and running a million miles an hour. It's so easy to do. But if you if you lose that it'd be much harder.

Ollie Collard: 36:21

completely accurate that they can. And can you tell me about one sacrifice that you've made along building of startup, either consciously or unconsciously?

Unknown: 36:33

It's a good question. To be honest. I'm definitely surfing a lot less. That's for sure. But yeah, let me like, we've got a sort of way of thinking that I can't remember where we heard it, I'm sure it's someone, one of your listeners is going to know it. Like we, it's just somewhere out there. But there's sort of three flex spheres of life, there's there's work, there's health and has relationships. And generally, you can only be really focusing well on two of them out of three of them. So I don't feel like we've like, well, I've sacrificed one thing necessarily, I think it depends on the time and the place, but one of those buckets is generally not functioning at its best. Like sometimes, you know, you might not go to the gym for a couple of days, or sometimes Yeah, you might not see your partner for a few a little while. Or sometimes you just you know, well, actually, usually never you drop the work priorities. That's always the focus as a founder. So it's one of the other two that drops, but yeah, it depends on the time and the place to be honest.

Ollie Collard: 37:35

Awesome. Come and talk to me a bit about obviously, the decision to launch in the UK, and how you manage this remotely from Australia.

Unknown: 37:43

Great question. I mean, we, we don't manage it. Football remotely, like we've got an epic team over there. Our GM Alex is actually a UK kid he grew up in and he's gonna hate me for not knowing this exact but down down towards Cornwall keeps track trying to get me to go surfing down there when we're over. And I'm like, man, it's way too cold. But um, but you know, we've got a great gym, Alex, and then a couple of others, George and Alan and Joel over there as well. So a little office that just hums, but I don't know, the decision for us. Like, again, looking at kind of Patagonia and a few other brands that we value like, we like where you're creating the categories what we see us doing like where we're not accommodation, we're not a hotel, we represent this way of life that's closer to nature. And, and that's what we want to be for people. And we to own that and to be the sort of the ones that drive this space forward and genuinely help people connect with nature more, you do need to be in other places, you can't just be in one country. So from day one, we always knew that we were going to grow and go overseas, not necessarily, you know, putting 1000s of cabinets in every country, but growing just like we did here in Australia authentically, sustainably, but in different locations at the same time. The UK made sense for a whole tonne of reasons like speaks English, big, big, centralised populations around and then lots of nature around as well. And then luckily, our our GM, Alex, he actually worked with us for a few years beforehand as well. So it's sort of a lot of things. Yeah, a lot of things fell together, you know, obviously also the biggest market in Europe. And something about everyone else us why not the US and something about the US just didn't excite us at the time. And we we thought Europe was going to be more exciting and then leading up with all of those other strategic choices. It just made sense to head over there. And, you know, one of the most important points is we think people in London and to a lesser degree that other cities but definitely London like they need this, you know, you spend some time on the tube, and you just like holy shit and it's some nature that We just We just knew that it didn't exist there when we were first planning to move over there. And that I think then a few others sort of popped up doing similar things. But it's it's such a big space and we're just think it's going to be awesome over there and already Ollie I like, I like listening to cam and the way he speaks about this, you know, he is just very matter of fact, in a way that, okay, things might have gotten down, but actually, it's just finding a way forward. And he said, you know, governing law of the startup world, whatever can go wrong will go wrong. But he also said they weren't failures, it's just like, these things will happen, which is an intro, I was listening carefully to his language. And that is, that's a subtle difference. That's the difference between someone who's like, oh, go, this went wrong. Again, what are we going to do, this is just a nightmare, I can't deal with this. And the person who has to ride these various waves, or bucket loads of stuff being sent in their direction, and they have had a lot of floods, bushfires, COVID, whatever else. And just how they keep going, and there is a, he's definitely got the outlook of someone who is going to have a business that will keep going for as long as he wants it to, I sent 100 return and this might have fallen.

Ollie Collard: 41:22

Yeah. And I think, you know, having that attitude of, you know, acknowledging Murphy's law about you know, something's gonna go wrong, it will go wrong, and probably at the worst possible time, when you least expect it. So I think if he's going in with that attitude, then you know, things that get thrown at them, they're not going to be over fazed by it, because they're going to react to it, and come up with a solution. And I think that attitude, and that mindset, as you say, is gonna, you know, ensure that they continue to grow. And as they have been doing from those initial cabins that over at operating in, you know, four different countries. And one of the things that really made me laugh was going in having to go and do these composites lose at 4am. And then going back into the corporate job the next day, and then just thinking about what the conversation was probably like, at the time, you know, Cam, so you know, how was your evening? Well, you know, I had next to no sleep, and I was kind of knee deep and emptying Danny. But yeah, that's the life of a founder, isn't it at that stage of the journey?

Unknown: 42:25

Yeah, I can relate to this, because I've got a relative Yasser campsite, and they have compost toilets as well. And just before we started recording, they sent me a picture of a grass snake in the bit where they're sort of decom where they composting stuff. And I was like, I mean, grass snakes are perfectly harmless, it's awful. You don't need to worry. But yeah, it's true. There is this other struggle, we and we need to see this, we need to kind of be real about it. And it's great that he was sharing that. And that's what they've had to do for several years until they can get to the point with the investment where they could focus on this full time. But yeah, it's what it takes, isn't it? And I guess everyone will have their own story about the things they're trying to combine whether it's, you know, well, being a parent is an extra layer, but you know, whatever, it might be juggling several jobs or more just to try and make it all work. But but worth it, you know, clearly they've picked something they love. And that's what makes it worth it each time. But one of the exciting things about these two, I say these two, I can't help it, it's because they're twin brothers. So cam, and Chris, we've been talking to Cam is his co founder is his twin, and the benefits of you know, having a twin and the sort of reduction of risk as far as other others are concerned and all the shortcuts that you have when you are family. But I wondered, we can't just suddenly magic a twin, even if we might like to what advice what do you sort of see early with all the businesses that you've worked with over the years who do have successful co founder relationships? What things are they doing that, you know, you notice? Or what, what are people looking for?

Ollie Collard: 44:00

Yeah, I mean, I think it's really good at the start of a co founding relationships have that real, honest and deep chat about, you know, what your ambitions are, what are you worried about? But most importantly, I'd say what are your What are your values, because those are going to be deeply embedded in each other. And they probably won't change much over the length of running a say a 10 year business.

Unknown: 44:24

So when you say values, what kinds of things are you saying that to people would need to give me a little example of what you mean?

Ollie Collard: 44:32

So it's looking at your personal values, because often they're going to really represent the business as well. So like, what matters to you? Is it being sustainably minded? Or is it going for growth at all costs? Because those things can often exist together. And going back to Cam he was saying, you know about, they could have taken on perhaps VC money after obtaining their angel rounds for their seed funding. But, you know, it's about growing the business in a sustainable way where if he, if he didn't have Chris's co founder, and he had somebody else who was really growth minded, they said, Well, now let's take on some VC funding that's really turbocharged your business and grow to 300 Commons in the next year. So if you're, if your values aren't the same, then you're going to have conflict and making decisions is then going to be hard. And ultimately, if decisions start to be hard, it is going to impact the business. And then often this is going to result in a failing co founder relationship, because you haven't got that alignment with one another. And it's going to end in a divorce and the failure of

Unknown: 45:39

friendship. Yeah, I think there's, you know, the next thing, if it's not with family, then it might be a friendship. And actually, that can be difficult because you have perhaps an established pattern. So I think it just makes it even more important to have that conversation at the beginning, don't assume that you know, or that you are on the same page, because this is going to be quite a different thing to be doing together to, you know, to anything else that you might have done. So. I certainly think please don't assume that it's all okay. Just because you're good friends? Yeah, I think you definitely need this, it's really important that you want to come out with the friendship at the other end of it. So you definitely should,

Ollie Collard: 46:20

it's a great point law. And also, I'd say, just think about the stage of life that you're both in as well, one person's sort of maybe mid 20s, and the other person's, say, early 40s, then your priorities naturally going to be quite different. You got to think about that, and how that's gonna play out in the longer term.

Unknown: 46:38

Yeah, that's a really good point. Okay, so to the third and final part of your conversation with Cam and a bit of future gazing, looking ahead to what the next five years holds for an yoked? That's a great question. I mean, hard to say really, like so like, fires, floods, COVID recession, like, I honestly don't know what else can be thrown away. But, you know, our vision has always been to help more people get to nature more often. And that's our sort of guiding star. So we were gonna grow and keep growing in different places. Because wherever we think that this doesn't exist, and that people can be brought closer to this sort of truth about how being out in nature more frequently is better for us. We'll we'll go there. And we've sort of been, we've created a category. So being in the category owner globally, and having a brand that represents a way of life and a set of ideals, like Patagonia, like that's where we're trying to get to. So we're gonna build the business app, across locations, add new ways to access nature, a whole bunch of different exciting stuff that we've got in the works. And yeah, have a sort of global lifestyle brand that just represents this way of life for a whole bunch of people. That's, that's looking to be in the next five years

Ollie Collard: 48:06

to come, you created the category. And you mentioned, obviously, there's new entrants coming into the market. I actually originally worked with the guys from unplugged to help them get a startup loan. And I know there's others that have started up in the UK as well. So how would you see obviously, more people coming into the market impacting the future of unoaked

Unknown: 48:28

we haven't we honest, we still only as a good thing, to be honest. Like, where, you know, again, our mission is what people in nature more often, it's, it's an education thing, and it's going against the grain, you know, that the conventional world is still stuck in that old nine to five way of thinking even after COVID, you know, people are going back to that, instead of changing it. So the more people that are sharing this message, the more people that are helping people get out to nature and realise that instead of sitting in four walls, and under a fluorescent light, you should be outside more often. It's only good for the space, you know, you look at the look at hotels, like there's 1000s of rooms in one city, like let like, let alone outside of that. So there's tonnes of space around. We were keen to be the leader in there and but we're really just happy doing our own thing and staying authentic and doing this and that. So it's, yeah, it's cool to see other people coming up. You know, it's kind of exciting and humbling that this little thing that we thought was gonna be fun back like six years ago, it's sort of become so massive and big. And yeah, we sort of love connecting with all the other guys. There's some really cool shit going on in a lot of different countries and kind of cool to see that a lot of people are doing slightly different things as well, like, you know, like focusing on digital detox or focusing on a slightly more premium market or focusing on like, longer things and there's a whole bunch of different angles there. So yeah, I think it's really exciting.

Ollie Collard: 49:53

Love that cam. And the reason I asked actually because we had a recent guests on the show, Dan Murray Sirsa from a business called heights They created a category of themselves called Brain care. And they like you see it as a good thing in terms of new people coming into the market and actually building out the ecosystem. And it kind of raises everyone's game. And as you say, people will specialise in particular verticals as well, which is great to say. And come I know, you've got a question for our listeners.

Unknown: 50:21

Yeah, yeah, I did. So I think that's great. I think your podcast does and ask a bit of a question. See what everyone knows and get some comments going. Some discussion? So, you know, I've been talking a lot about about, obviously, nature being good for you, and all this kind of stuff. And, you know, we'll see how many people out there listening, believe it already or understand it, but I kind of questions around that, and, and the sort of founder space. So I was interested to know how many people out there knew which famous founder was or is known to use nature in their routines to help them think and come up with better ideas. And those choices are Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Phil Knight, from Nike, all of the above?

Ollie Collard: 51:05

A fantastic question there cam and we get some answers to that on our socials for you as well. Now, the next part of the show is a key tenant are founded and grounded. So I'm going to put you on the spot here, Ken, if you could distil down just one piece of advice for either an early stage founder or somebody thinking of starting a business, what would that be?

Unknown: 51:28

Well, I'll tell you what, I'll give you two. And you guys can either choose to give him both, or you can cut one out, and we'll see how it goes. But the two so one is it's more of a way of thinking. And again, I can't remember who said it, I can't claim that we're smart enough to have sort of made it up. But it's been a guiding light from day one for us. And it's the same that you should be uncompromising on the vision, but flexible on the details. And it's that, you know, it's the way you have to be just as long as you're shooting hard for where you're going to get to and what the business is all about. And that goal, it doesn't matter how you get there, you can see you can zag, you can get back because you can go forwards. But if you say true your vision, that's where success lies and authenticity. The second one, and this is so cliche, but it's it's true, you know, this is how things become cliche, but it's it's choose something that you're actually passionate about, and is actually you and that you care about. Like it's just, it sounds obvious. But doing startup is a lot of work, it is a huge amount of work like this, very unlikely that you're going to be a unicorn in five years, you're going to be you know, at a mid level stage dealing with a whole tonne of stuff and Murphy's Law every day. So being able to wake up in the morning and, and feeling actually good and excited about it. Or being able to use your product and having that moment of connection where you're like, okay, yeah, I know why we're doing this, it really does go a massive, long way.

Ollie Collard: 52:57

Fantastic. Two bits of advice there were definitely keep both of those income because those were great and so true as well. And lastly, where can people find out a bit more about you personally, but also when you

Unknown: 53:09

I mean, unoaked is just unmuted Dotco if you type on European, Google will be the first one there and all over the page. It's very unique word. For anyone that's guessing as well. And Yoga is a real word, it means to be set free. So a yoke used to be the thing that would connect an ox or a horse to a cart in the field. So sort of to be connected to be forced to work to be an element of sort of slavery. Whereas to be unknown, it means to be set free, and that that's what our whole mission is. Me personally, you can find me on LinkedIn, via the unoaked page, or just by looking up cam grant,

Ollie Collard: 53:48

or cam, listen, thank you so much for your time insights. And it's so great to hear about everything that you've achieved and yoked.

Unknown: 53:55

No worries, man, it was great chatting. Hopefully I didn't ramble too much. But thanks for having me on the show, and looking forward to getting you and some of the listeners out. And can you actually let's begin by talking about creating a category is something I was thinking about, as the two of you were talking and I made a little note to myself. And clearly you were having the same thoughts thinking about Dan, as a previous guest on this podcast, so I never really considered this. And that's about probably the size of my ambition as opposed to anything else. But the idea that they're creating a new category, and what that means in terms of what they are going to do, and also how they view other people working in the same area, I thought was really interesting and actually helpful to think about. So, yeah, is this about size of ambition when someone says they want to create a new category? Are they really, you know, I'm not gonna say are they really doing that? But what did you kind of think of that?

Ollie Collard: 54:57

I think it's the single biggest thing that you can do. to really differentiate yourself from the competition, because you're literally creating your own lane, and there's nobody else in it. So I think it's a really good point, I think there's like, yeah, there's no competition. But what it does require, it does require real conviction, and being quite bold. It requires a deep understanding of the market. But really being clear on your USP, what it does also need is a large marketing budget to be able to sort of create it, if you don't, you're not going to be able to educate consumers about the importance of the market. And I think what we've previously learned from Dan, and also what Ken was reiterating, was the fact that you need businesses to come and play in your space to make it better for all you know, it's not, it's not a zero sum game, somebody doesn't win, and then somebody else has to lose. It can be better for all

Unknown: 55:54

Yeah, yes, I think he said, but just think about how many hotels there are, you know, for example, or I used to say, to friends, when they'd be like, someone else has started the same thing as me, and it really drives me mad. And I know that feeling, and it comes from a sense of like, fear of, you still want yours to be good enough. And you don't want to miss out on opportunities. So I totally get that. But how many hairdressers are there, you know, just think about high streets, there are tonnes on the high street on there, still, you might have five in a small town, which has then got, you know, charity shops, your paper shop and not a whole lot else. Right. But somehow they still there still there. And it's that same sort of thing. Don't let that don't let that put you off. There are so many differences aren't there between each of us as individuals. And that translates as our business. So you know, personal connection, it really varies as to what each of us wants, doesn't it? But yeah, I thought absolutely the right way to view it. But I know that it would give some people a bit of a wobble. So it's just that reassurance, if that's what you discover that you think you've found something great, and then someone else is doing it? Well, okay, so what?

Ollie Collard: 57:03

Yeah, what I would say is like, if you are so second to market, it's not, it's not a bad thing, because there's an established customer base there already. And you can tap into that. And what I would also say is, if you're creating this category is that it will attract further competition, as we know, and it might attract competition from some of the big players, and you're not going to be able to compete on budget, because or price because they're going to have a lot more purchasing power than you are. So what it means is that you really have to stay true to your original values.

Unknown: 57:38

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think we're all about the encouragement today. That's what I'm feeling the reassurance is of any wobbles that you might have. Cam has shared a question for listeners, I'm not going to give the answer to this. Did you? Do you think you know it

Ollie Collard: 57:53

early? I have an inkling. But yeah, it'd be interesting to see what our listeners have to say.

Unknown: 57:58

Yes. So it's the one about founders using nature to help them with, with their business and their life in general. So if you want to chip in and get involved in this, you can find us on social media search for founded and grounded, and you'll see us there, please do come and comment, we always like to hear from you. And he also shared some great pieces of advice there. But having that, you know, not compromising on your vision, but being flexible on the details, and then picking something that you're passionate about as well. It's always good to hear how our founders just distil that into one little nugget at the end. You can find kam and the team. They are unoaked Dotco, as you know, but whilst we're talking social, and you're getting involved, let's just have a little moment where we hear from our community lead from Samantha and just find out what you've been saying in response to the previous founder that we had, where they also asked a little question. So Sam, perhaps you can do the honours, and just remind us of what that question is and who we had. In our last episode, we spoke to Johnny Palmer, a serial entrepreneur who took us through his journey in the business world. Johnny had a few questions to share with you, just like each of our guests poses a question to our audience. Johnny at this time came with three key questions that really important to consider if you are a startup founder. His questions Where do you want to succeed? And prompted us to think hard about that one? Question two, what does success mean to you? Is it money? Is it changing the world? Is it status or ego? Is it making a point to somebody and prompted us to think about being honest with ourselves about that, and really consider what that looks like. First is individuals. Question three, are you prepared to do what it takes to achieve the kind of success you want? These weren't such interesting and really important questions to be prompted. And this series of questions But Johnny gave us to self reflect on a really beneficial to consider as a entrepreneur ourselves. So many people didn't feel comfortable sharing this in the public forum. But I know lots of us self reflected on this. And really considered each of these questions and how they impact on an individual basis. We did have a few responses to this series of questions, one of which was from Roger Jackson, who came up with an analogy for success, which we loved. He suggested that success as a founder is very akin to how you feel when from the touch line, you see your nine year old score, his or her first ever go in a soccer match or catch their first boundary ball in a cricket game is just the same, but on a slightly bigger scale. And we completely agree, it's so similar. And so many people make those correlations between being a parent and that pride that you feel, and having a business we've all heard the comments of referring to a business as somebody's baby. And of course, it does give people that, that pride and that emotional feeling. So definitely success is a very proud moment and something very personal too. So I hope you found those questions, a good prompt to self reflect on if you do have any comments you would like to share or even just whether it made you think about something in particular or prompted you to reflect on your business, we would love to hear it. We always like to hear your thoughts and answers to the questions and feedback as well. So come and find us on any of the social media channels and share your thoughts with us. We'd love to hear. And Ali, we are at the final podcast in the series. The next one is the final one. This is the penultimate one, and then we're done for the summer. So who's going to be with us next time.

Ollie Collard: 1:01:57

I know it's much closer for season four here already. So we have a great guest for the last episode of season four, which is the CEO of a company called Flow neuroscience. They are a startup looking to cure depression with a medically approved brain stimulation headset and we've got their CEO, Aaron coming on to talk about everything that they're up to.

Unknown: 1:02:24

Oh my goodness, I need to ask you loads of things about that already. Okay, I'm gonna not do that now. We'll finish the podcast and we will return with you shortly here at founded and grounded. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for listening to founded and grounded with Ollie collard and Laura Rawlings. If you've enjoyed this free podcast, we'd love you to recommend it to someone else. You can leave a review on Apple podcasts regardless of where you get your podcasts from. And join our online community and share your comments with us. We're on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. It's always good to hear from you