Flow Neuroscience: Pioneering a Drug-Free Pathway for Depression (season finale)

Depression affects 1 in 6 adults in the UK, with medication being the most common treatment.

But what if there was a drug-free approach that actually works?

The CEO of Flow Neuroscience, Erin Lee, reveals how their innovative headset is changing the game in mental health treatment.

Key Takeaways

- Embracing uncertainty is part of the startup journey, and as your knowledge grows, the awareness of what you don't know increases.
 
- Authenticity in leadership, Erin reveals how sharing your flaws and uncertainties can unify a team and contribute to a more genuine work environment.
 
- Persistence and passion are critical for startup success, and why you need to be starting a business for the right reasons

Have questions about this episode? Ask our hosts, chat now via our website

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Oh no one has the answer. And so you can talk to a lot of people be like, Hey, I don't know, like, what do you think? And I think it's a great unifying factor in many ways. So I embrace it every day. I realise how little I know. And that's just part of the journey, right? You're listening to founded and grounded with Ollie collard and Laura Rawlings. The podcast brings you the honest realities of startup life. If you're a founder or aspiring entrepreneur, this is for you. We know running a business can be lonely and tough at times, and we want to help you get ahead with simple tips and sound advice. Every fortnight we hear inspiring stories from an early stage business owner who's only a couple of steps ahead of you, talking about what they've learned. And as your hosts, we share our own insights and experiences as founders. So you can apply this to your own business. Hello, welcome along to the founded and grounded podcast with me, Laura Rawlings, and business startup coach, Ollie collard. Hi, Ollie.

Ollie Collard: 1:15

Hey, Laura, how you doing?

Unknown: 1:17

Good. Thank you. How are you today?

Ollie Collard: 1:18

Very well. Yeah, I can't believe we're at the end of season four founded and grounded, it's been quite a journey.

Unknown: 1:26

I know, I feel like I want to kind of look back and sort of comb through some of the key things that have come out because undoubtedly, at various points usually in in every episode, actually, there's something that I take away and then a few days later, I'll be doing something completely different. And I'll be like, the words from founded and grounded from our founder will pop in my head. And that's what I must do. That's what they were talking about when they said that this is the time to channel this wisdom. But yeah, there's been so much packed into the series, what an eclectic selection of founders we've had.

Ollie Collard: 1:57

No, it's been a great season, I just wanted to say thank you to you, as well, or refer coming on boards, you know, for season four. It's been so fun working with you. And I'm really looking forward to Season Five as well.

Unknown: 2:08

Yeah, well, likewise, thank you for the invitation. I'm very much looking forward to getting going again in September, at some point all the details to be sorted. So in terms of stay, then Ali, we've got a startup, which is all about helping to treat depression.

Ollie Collard: 2:22

We do indeed. And it's an episode of a bit of a difference they, Laura, because we're interviewing a CEO of a startup rather than the founder. So we have Aaron Lee, who is in charge of flow neuroscience. And as you say, they're a startup all about trying to help and treat depression.

Unknown: 2:40

Yeah, which is such an important thing to be able to do. And I was really interested to hear exactly how they're a part of this solution. Now, Ollie, just before we jump straight into here, the first part of your conversation with Aaron, we just want to flag up at this stage that we have a very exciting opportunity for one lucky listener. And that is that the team at flow neuroscience have kindly given us one free headset so someone can win this. It could be you listening to the podcast right now. It's very simple to be able to do it. You got to listen all the way to the end of the podcast, or is that a bit mean? It is a bit mean? No, you need to listen to the podcast, obviously. But then subscribe, so that you always get a podcast and leave us a review. Okay, and we'll pick a winner at random. All the details will be on our social media. And I will remind you of all of this right at the end of the podcast. But yeah, just want to put that out there. There is a chance to win what we're talking about in the show today. Right. Let's jump straight into your conversation, shall we?

Ollie Collard: 3:43

Good afternoon, Aaron. It's an absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast. How you doing? I'm great. Thanks for having me. Flow, neuroscience and amazing business solving one of the biggest problems in the world right now, which is depression. The World Health Organisation estimate this to cost the global economy, over 1 trillion per year, and one out of four people in the UK are currently suffering from mental health issues. So can you tell us a bit about how flow neuroscience came to be? And how your home headset helps treat depression?

Unknown: 4:16

Yeah, absolutely. So the company was founded by Daniel and Eric are two co founders. And it really sort of sprung from, as you said, the recognition of sort of the global epidemic nature of depression, but also really the lack of valid treatment options and alternatives. So Daniel is a clinical psychologist by training he spends a lot of time in clinics treating depression and PTSD and effectively for the treatment options that you have are antidepressants and drugs. And while they do work for some users, the reality is, you know, 60% of people have side effects. Less than a third of people will go on to see sort of effective treatment and So Daniel was really like, there's gotta be something better. And so you know, he had been following this sort of out there concept of tDCS. There were some pivotal trials in 2017, that really showed some promise. And he sort of decided to roll the dice. And that's sort of how flow was born, was really out of the impetus, there must be a better treatment option for depression. Wow.

Ollie Collard: 5:20

And they're in talks to be a bit about the headset. So I've actually got a copy. For the people on the audio version, you have to check out our socials, but I got a the actual headset here in front of me. So I'm just actually gonna unbox it and bring it out. So talk to me about how it works or in.

Unknown: 5:40

Yeah, so it's actually pretty straightforward once you sort of get past sort of the different appearance. But effectively, the flow platform has two parts, it has river headset and our apple, let's start with the headset that you have on now. So that is a brain stimulation wearable. And what we do is we leverage transcranial direct stimulation, or tDCS, which is a mild electrical current, so less than you'd find in a household battery. And we're stimulating the left dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex. So it's quite a mouthful. But in effect, that is the area of the brain that's responsible for mood emotion, impulse control. And what studies have shown is that when you're suffering from depression, there's often less activity in that region. And so what we're doing is we're stimulating those currents and reactivating that area of the brain to sort of treat those symptoms like brain fog, low mood, depression, etc. And that's in a nutshell, really how it works. So quite straightforward.

Ollie Collard: 6:39

Amazing. And I know that obviously, it's been rolled out at the moment in the UK with the NHS trial, can you talk to us a bit about how that's going? So far?

Unknown: 6:48

As you mentioned, we do have a few pilots with a Northamptonshire trust. And, you know, we've been available direct to consumer over the counter for a little over two and a half years. But as I mentioned earlier, our real sort of founding mission is to deliver an accessible and affordable treatment alternative. And the reality is that only really comes with reimbursed coverage or coverage available via the NHS. And so we are working with the the Northamptonshire trust to trial, a couple of different things. One, like let's see how users respond to a different option to antidepressants have clinicians respond, how does it fit in the pathway? You know, are there cost savings associated with using Flow versus drugs, we believe that there are and then we're also exploring some other user groups like potentially postpartum depression and sort of social care. So, you know, it's sort of early to say, but you know, directionally, it looks very positive.

Ollie Collard: 7:43

Amazing. And talking about when Daniel took the bold decision to launch the business, what kind of validation did he do to ensure that, you know, this was a solution that actually people did want and need?

Unknown: 7:55

So we looked first, you know, at the science, and I think fundamentally, that's sort of core to who we are, we always try and lead with science and clinical evidence. And so we were actually the first company to run our own trial of the technology and the headset. And so first and foremost, we wanted to demonstrate that it works, right. And that, you know, maybe if it doesn't work for 100% of users, it does work for the majority. And so that was the first step. And then I think what may be surprising to most people is that there's actually quite a bit of dissatisfaction with traditional treatment options today, right. And that's true of patients and clinicians. So a recent survey sort of showed that, you know, over 75% of people would prefer a drug free alternative. And then clinician see every day, the impact of side effects, you know, ineffective results, withdrawal symptoms. And so there really was a hunger for something different, you know, that could demonstrate effectiveness. And so that was sort of the validation that we needed.

Ollie Collard: 8:50

Amazing. And I just wanted to ask a bit about your background. So I know you've got a career that you spent building out teams are some of the biggest kind of tech Titans out there, including Google, Uber, Babylon health, but I'm really interested in what attracted you to the world of joining a startup and how are you bringing your knowledge of world class customer service to flow neuroscience?

Unknown: 9:13

Yeah, so I, effectively over the course of my career, I think, you know, I've been very fortunate to work for some incredible companies. But I've really effectively been getting earlier and earlier stage. And so I think one of the things I've realised about myself is I really prefer to build things from scratch. And I'm not the person that likes to go to meetings and talk about meetings and talk about the next meetings that come after that. And so, getting earlier in earlier stage, you know, transparently, I never started my career thinking about healthcare, I recognise that that's probably a very privileged perspective. You know, I've always been very healthy. I've always had insurance and so it was really not until Babylon where I sort of saw firsthand. You know, really how terrible quite frankly, the health care system is for most individuals, right? It's either better than nothing or inaccessible, it's not affordable. And particularly, you know, with mental health, I don't think people realise how badly that impacts physical health. And so, you know, after four and a half years at Babylon, I was really looking for, you know, that next early stage company, but that was really doing something transformational. I wasn't looking to optimise around the edges or sort of play with supply networks or clinic, like somebody who was going to take a bold risk. And if it worked, it would sort of disrupt the industry, but maybe it would fail. And what Daniel and Eric were doing, you know, in my mind was really that transformational thing. And so then you asked a little bit about, okay, so what can we learn from, you know, Uber, and Google and even Babylon? And I think, I think healthcare is really the last sort of frontier where patient experience is sort of not considered, I mean, some will argue that, like, the airline experience isn't great, but it's sort of take it or leave it. And I think what, you know, Google does very well, and, and Uber did very well was sort of this obsession about the experience, and is there this joy, and it's in what I'm doing, and that was just for ads or taxi rides. And I think, you know, Babylon, we tried to bring that to healthcare, right? Could you enjoy a trip to the doctor? Could we make a clinician as accessible, you know, as Netflix? And I think that's really what we're trying to do with flow, like, can you treat depression, which is a horrific illness in a way that is simple and delightful, and serves a user name?

Ollie Collard: 11:42

And then leads nicely to my next question, in terms of treating depression? What results are you seeing from your customers so far? Yeah, so we see

Unknown: 11:50

results that are two to three times as effective as drugs, we work for about 80% of users. So as I mentioned, we don't work for everyone. But, you know, for those that sort of go ahead and follow the 15 session, over three weeks, if that five sessions a week, initial Stimulation Protocol, you know, 80%, will see an improvement in depressive symptoms, and then, you know, over 60% of users do go on to continue for six months. And some of that is around maintenance. And some of that is around sort of sticking to the sort of a dedicated focus on improving mental health and sort of addressing physical and sociological sort of elements. So the results are very compelling. And we're, you know, Razor focused on making sure that we continue to improve that

Ollie Collard: 12:29

by no users can sort of log into an app that you've got, as well as to actually track their mood in real time. So how does that work hand in hand with the

Unknown: 12:38

headset? Yeah. So you know, depression is really sort of a holistic illness. And so the headset for us treats sort of the physical components of depression that I mentioned. But there's also other elements like sleep, diet, exercise, you know, things that you will discuss in therapy, for example. And so really, what we wanted to do is empower users with that information, allow them to sort of track their own behaviours, across sleep, mood, etc. And over time, that will allow us to personalise the experience and sort of surface more relevant content for a user who may be struggling with sleep or diet. And for us, it's sort of like you don't get depressed overnight. And so you're not going to get better overnight. And so it's really about empowering people with the tools that they need to address their individual experience, because it's different for everyone.

Ollie Collard: 13:29

And so the customers are all seeing an uplift in their mood and reduction in anxiety, what kind of the long term implications? So they are, they're encouraged to keep using the headset for the rest of their life, or how does that work?

Unknown: 13:42

So I think it's really a personal like, and, you know, we partnered with over 80 clinics, so many of our users do work with their clinicians to sort of figure out how flow is gonna fit into their life, I think the great thing about it is that you don't need to use Flow every day for the rest of your life. As we said, we sort of had that initial treatment of three weeks, we do encourage sort of a treatment, sort of continuation maintenance phase, for about two to three months, many of our users do use it for six months, they like the habit of it, and then many of them will stop, right. But depression can be cyclical. So even if you're in remission today, maybe in a year, something comes back, it was a job, you have sort of a relationship issue. And the great thing about flow is you can pick it back up and you can start again. And so again, we want people to keep it in their home, sort of use it as they need it. And that will depend really based on the individual

Ollie Collard: 14:34

fantastica. And I know you've come into obviously as CEO of the company, but I believe you have actually got an equity stake in flow. So I'm just wondering what what's the difference you see between being a founder and actually running a business on behalf of a company? Is there any conflict there?

Unknown: 14:51

I guess I would say like my biases, I don't think you can come into a startup and not particularly one a smallest flow and not Feel like a founder like, quite frankly, you know, I think there's been a lot of buzz about startups over the last few years. And everyone's got many millionaires and billionaires. And the reality is like, quite frankly, the vast majority of startups fail. And so my advice to people on my own sort of guidance to myself is just you have to do something that you're incredibly passionate about. And fiercely committed to it will eat your life in a good way, if you know if you can control it. And so it can't be about sort of, I mean, of course, it is about sort of running a business and the bottom line, but it has to, you have to think like a founder at a company that stage regardless of the role, and I sort of say that to every member of our team, like every single person is the founder, whether it's at their function or you know, the role so the word about our sponsors, as a founder, cybersecurity isn't top of your priorities, yet alliances as identified cyber threats as one of the top three risks facing business globally. This is where Nova blue comes in. Its founder Steve Mason, with technical director with GCHQ he was in charge of keeping the nation safe from cyber threats. He set up Nova blue to help keep businesses safe. Nova blue are offering founded and grounded listeners, a free cybersecurity health check. Simply go to Nova hyphen blue.co.uk, forward slash podcast offer. Do something you're passionate about that is that is the number one starting point. I think every time that is the message that comes out loud and clear from all of our founders, and in this case, our CEO, but I just want to touch on the point about mental health, you know, yes, we a lot of us have got a lot better at talking about it, and maybe sharing some of our own experiences and how we're feeling. But it is a significant problem. And I'm fascinated how, with all the new developments in technology that we have the ability to see a bit more about what's going on in the brain, which we can we no longer have to, you know, cut someone's head open to kind of find out pharmacological answers have been there, you know, for for decades now. And that's been one of the key ways forward alongside other therapies as well. But interesting to see what's happening here. I feel like this area is just going to grow, isn't it? It's so exciting.

Ollie Collard: 17:26

I heard on the radio this morning, something saying about one in four people were on medication for depression in the UK. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, they'd been on it for five more years as well. So, you know, you can't expect different results if you're having the same input. And I think it's great to see innovation in this area, from flow neuroscience. And I think what's really encouraging is actually hearing from some of their initial customer base, I think they said that 88% of depressed patients who trialled the device, were in remission after six weeks, which is absolutely incredible.

Unknown: 18:02

Yeah, especially as I know the story you're talking about, because it's about kind of getting on antidepressants. And perhaps they are working. But there's not, we don't know too much about the when you start to taper down and reduce them and try and come off of them. And whether it's the withdrawal from the drugs, or whether it is the impact of a mental health condition, which obviously was something like this, I'm guessing is going to be slightly different. Because you're not putting a chemical into your body. Yeah, so I think we're going to hear a lot more and find out a lot more developments. But this team don't know anyone else is doing anything quite like this. This makes it particularly interesting. It also must make it particularly tough, though. And I'm reminded of several people I've met over the years who've tried to kind of get into the NHS with products or services that they think might help. And how do you gain credibility in this area, when what you're doing is completely new, and usually require a huge amount of research, peer reviews, you know, in order to get that credibility, so Ali, what I wonder how, what advice you might have from the people you've worked with, about getting in with the right people, especially in the world of health.

Ollie Collard: 19:14

I mean, it's a tough cookie to crack and obviously rightly so I think, first of all, obviously, Daniels clinical background and his credibility in the industry have massively helped here. But that doesn't mean that it's been plain sailing, I'm sure. I like what Aaron said about obviously, taking the regulation side of it very seriously. Because I've that's obviously of most importance as well. But what I would say if you're trying to break into the NHS and you don't have a medical background, I would highly recommend reaching out to your local H S n, which stands for the academic health science network. There's 15 regional bodies throughout the UK. And essentially they bring together the NHS industry, academia, the third sector are local organisations across the full spectrum of health and social care. So they're really responsible for improving health and generating economic growth locally. So they can really help you potentially trial products and services with the NHS and get that route to market. So I would highly recommend reaching out to your local HSA Yeah. And touching base with them.

Unknown: 20:24

I never heard of that. So there is a way that's, that's really good to know. Thank you, Ollie. One of the other key points, you've liked this right at the start, we usually have founders today we have a CEO. I know friends who set up businesses and often in those first few years, like what am I, I'm everything. Am I the CEO? Am I the founder? What is the difference between the two?

Ollie Collard: 20:45

It's a good question, Laura. And obviously, if you're a founder, then you've got complete ownership over the business. Whereas obviously, if you're coming in as a CEO, then you might have some equity. I think in Aaron's case, she does as well. But ultimately, you don't have full ownership of the business, even though you're in charge of running it. So sometimes there can be a conflict here. And I think what I really like what Daniel and Eric have done, is they've relinquished some of this control in the business. So lots of people compare starting a business to having a baby, and they've managed to let go of it, which is a hard thing to do. I think it's great that they've got Aaron on board, you know, they've raised 9.3 million US dollars in 2021, to grow the team. And obviously, Aaron came on board last year. I mean, she's a proven team builder, with a very solid CV working with some of the largest tech giants, including Babylon health as well. And I think that, you know, ultimately, being a founder and a CEO require different skills. And often founders don't make great CEOs, unfortunately.

Unknown: 21:56

Yeah, that I feel like she definitely comes in as a catalyst to move things forwards and to take on different parts of the business. Yeah, it's really interesting. Okay, along the way, though, doesn't always smell of roses. As we know, behind the scenes, there's always something that goes pear shaped. So let's hear about some of Aaron's favourite failures. Um, gosh, there's a lot of failures. I would say, you know, I think for us, as I mentioned, our goal is really is really accessibility and affordability. And you know, for many that go on our website, and they'll probably say, like, how can you say that when your device is priced? You know, 399 pounds? Like, how do you see that it's affordable, and we get it. And that's why we're partnering with the NHS. And that's why we're so focused on continuing to be sort of ruthless on costs, and, and really making sure that we can get it into the hands of the people that need it. But when we launched, we really wanted to figure out if there was a better way to make it more affordable and accessible to people. And so we played with some free trials, we played with, like, you know, try it for two months, don't pay anything, we dropped the monthly subscription price. And the great thing was we got a tonne of users. The bad thing was like most of them didn't ever open the device, they didn't use it, we had a tonne of returns, people were super unhappy. And what we realised was, there is some expectation setting that has to happen. And there there is a benefit to some friction, right? Like we want people to stop and think a little bit about, am I going to commit to this experience? Am I going to do this sessions. This is an economic investment for me today. But it's also time investment, right? It's 30 minutes a day for 15 sessions. And so, for us, we weren't getting the right type of users or people who hadn't done enough homework because it was too easy to purchase. And so we actually had to roll that back. And we gave up some growth to have a better user experience and an experience that fit that fit better with sort of our target user, that cost us a lot of money. It costs us a lot of time. It costs us you know, I think some unhappy people who didn't really understand what they were getting. And so that was a pretty painful one took us a couple of months to get out.

Ollie Collard: 24:05

Yeah, that's really interesting. So just to kind of summarise, you are kind of going for the opposite of Amazon. So rather than removing frictions, you were adding them into the journey,

Unknown: 24:14

but we have added them back a little bit. And I say that by we try and we try and empower people with information, right? We're really all about choice. And so we want of course, we want people to choose flow, and we don't want price to be a barrier. And that's what we're going to work towards long term. But we found that if you make if you remove that price barrier entirely, at least while we're still we were still a new company. Many people jumped in without sort of doing the initial research like what is that? How do I have to use that? You know, how long do I have to use it? And so there was a missile misalignment of expectations. We're doing a lot on education and awareness. And so we hope that people are more familiar with the technology so that when they come to flow, they understand what they're signing up for and then they have a great experience.

Ollie Collard: 24:57

Interesting and talking a bit about the can avoid a market? Are there any competitors? Are you first a market? Where are you kind of positioned?

Unknown: 25:05

So I would say that, as I mentioned, we were sort of the first to run our trials. I think Daniel had incredible foresight there. And so we are first to market. What I will say, though, is we absolutely expect competition. And we know there are others out there and other countries that are doing similar things. And we all honestly, we think that's awesome, right? I think this is a global epidemic, it's a massive market. This is not winner take all, I think competition is great for the end consumer. And I think if we can have help sort of explaining and celebrating the technology, like we'll take it. So there aren't any competition that I would point to today. But absolutely, there will be in the next year or two.

Ollie Collard: 25:44

It's really interesting, because we've had a couple of past guests talking about creating their own category and being the first to market. And actually they want people to come in, because obviously, it educates consumers. And it makes everybody play at the top of their game. And ultimately, as you say, it benefits the the end consumer, in terms of the industry, so obviously is very heavily regulated, and rightly so. Can you talk to us a bit about how you've navigated the regulatory side,

Unknown: 26:11

there is no shortcuts there, right. And I think, you know, we were the first class to where the only CE marked device in the UK, I won't mince words, like we do not mess around with regulation. And I think it's one of the largest parts of our team, we work hand in hand with sort of BCI McGraw, you name it. And so it is an investment, but that also sort of helps us build trust. And, you know, honestly, we think regulation is important. Like, of course it can be, it can be difficult to navigate as a startup, it's not as well resourced as some of the larger competitors. But in general, there's a good reason why it exists. And, you know, in our opinion, the worst thing that can happen is unregulated. You know, other parties come in, and they give everyone a bad name. And that's not, you know, that's not something that we're interested in. This is a, you know, a very serious topic. And so, you know, that was sort of a major investment for us. And that sort of drove our clinical trial, we're in the process of applying for FDA approval in the States, we had breakthrough designation in July of last year from the FDA, which was sort of a recognition of Yeah, of the work that we've done on the regulatory side, the clinical research side. And so we think that's important.

Ollie Collard: 27:26

100%, and we talked at the start of the podcast about, you know, one in four people here in the UK suffering from some form of mental illness. And, you know, lots of founders will experience kind of self doubt, you know, impostor syndrome. So I'm just wondering about any moments of self doubt that you've had in your career and how you've kind of overcome that.

Unknown: 27:48

I'm totally blanking on what it's called. But there's that curve, right? It's like, the less you know, the more arrogant you are, I'll come back to what it is. But I would say never have been more competent than when I was just starting out. I knew everything. And you know, my dad used to say, you know, I'm not young enough to know everything. And I finally understand. I think I doubt you know, of course, you're going to question everything constantly. I think my goal is really just to lean into it. I think, you know, the narrative that we see, externally is that there are these superhuman Gods CEOs that are just, you know, they're everything to everyone they know, you know, they know, you know, like Elon Musk, for example, right. And I think maybe there are a few Elon Musk's and Steve Jobs, although I think we're seeing some flaws there. You know, that's not who I tried to be, you know, I have my flaws, I'm human, there's things that I'm good at. But my goal is to build really an incredible team that sort of, you know, supplements and complements my flaws, I guess, in that way. And I really do think, you know, we're better together. And I think the more that people are open about, hey, I don't have all the answers. And I think in some ways flow because we're a new device in a new industry, and in a sort of category that no one's really done before. It's sort of very freeing, because no one has the answer. And so you can talk to a lot of people be like, Hey, I don't know, like, what do you think? And I think it's a great unifying factor in many ways. So I embrace it. I don't I every day, I realise how little I know. And that's just part of the journey, right?

Ollie Collard: 29:19

Love the answer, and very honest, and I think it's a great mindset to have. I'm keen to know about, you know, building a very successful career and coming into flow neuroscience, what is kind of one sacrifice that you've made, either consciously or subconsciously?

Unknown: 29:36

Absolutely, in my personal life, and I think it was conscious for a while, I always said, I'm gonna just commit to my courage. I'm 34. And then I was like, I was 35. And then, you know, I'm coming up on 40. I think, you know, I sort of felt like you've got one life you've got to do. You got to do the most that you can. With that time. I think now that I'm older I You sort of appreciate what I did sacrifice. And I've been very fortunate to have an incredibly supportive family, and partner. And, you know, that's been tremendous. But it has come at a cost. And I'm not always, I'm so proud of what I've done. And I wouldn't change a thing. But I am trying to be more conscious about sort of where I invest my time. So the money then Ali, let's talk about this pricing and why it's why it's so hard, also, why it's so important, and how lots of us take a little bit of time just to get it right. And that's okay. But ultimately, it's with the aim of while making your business sustainable and profitable, but finding your right client, and I thought this was a really interesting part of the conversation, especially as they're trying to educate a client as well around something that they don't know. But yeah, pricing, finding right clients, any pearls of wisdom on this, is it a bit always gonna be a bit trial and error? What can you do,

Ollie Collard: 31:03

you do have to test the market, I think, generally, speaking, people do often undervalue their product or service, they go too low, which I think is always a big mistake. Because if you go higher, then it's easier to come down rather than raise pricing. So I'd always say go higher than you, you think you need to. And I mean, in the case of this business, it's really hard, because, you know, they're trying to solve this really complex problem, which, you know, is really hard to treat as well. And clearly, I'm no expert in terms of depression and mental health. And I think you know, that the problem has so many awful effects in terms of the individual level, the family level, but also the wider society level, in terms of the NHS and the economy at large. So I think part of the complex nature of this is really understanding where the responsibility lies, and the lines are actually very blurred, because obviously, you know, the government and the NHS is obviously trying to help. But you know, mental health services are clearly underfunded and oversubscribed. So I think, you know, some individuals will take the matter into their own hands, and look at what's available on the private market. And, you know, if you've got 400 pounds to spend on the headset, then great, you know, you could potentially buy it, but it's not just a monetary issue, it's obviously a psychological issue as well. I think if the headset was available in the NHS for free, I know they're doing some trials at the moment, it doesn't necessarily mean that there'll be a higher uptake. Because if people aren't actually purchasing it themselves, they're not investing in it, they might not be committed to it. So there's, there's a very complex situation here where they've got to educate, get the pricing, right. And also remember that some people aren't very ofay with tech, and they don't like using tech. So it's a difficult issue to solve, I think.

Unknown: 33:04

Yeah, yeah, it really isn't. There are lots of different factors that contribute towards someone's commitment to doing something. And in this scenario, one of the factors that often goes with depression is that you're not feeling like it, your lack of motivation. So it's, I can imagine that this particular scenario is tricky, and I think about slightly slightly different. But you know, working as a hypnotherapist, often people seek help, you know, privately, they'll be paying, you know, their own money for it when they've reached a point of desperation, and they really want to make a change. But even then, the fee, the fee charge for something like that makes a difference, because you want to be able to help as many people as you can. But you also know that if you do put on free sessions, the drop off point will be so much higher than if you'd put a charge in there. And you can apply that to loads of different things, can't you events, you know the same thing if you charge a fiver or a tenner, at least people have had some kind of commitment to whereas if you say I'm going to do this free thing, because I want to be really great and helpful. You might not end up reaching everyone it's so interesting and so tricky, just to get it right. But yeah, don't be afraid to experiment and probably make it a little bit more than what your initial thought is, is Ali's advice on that one, which I think is really good. How much do you need to know before you can start he so this came up in the conversation about self doubt, didn't it? And you know, it's a frequent thing. This is doubting what you're doing worrying about it, but also what she said about look, this is a new area, no one's got all the answers and how kind of liberating that be that you know that can be. So don't let this hold you back. You don't need to have hoovered up every publication. Some of this is our own personality type is now I can imagine entering the sphere and thinking I need to read everything all the time. have loads of Google Alerts saying every time the word depression is mentioned that I know exactly what's what. But that can actually really stop you from getting on and doing stuff as well. So I guess it's being aware of some of what your own personality is like here, isn't it? Because you can, you can probably get going a bit more than you might think.

Ollie Collard: 35:19

Yeah, I think when people are asking themselves that question about how much do you need to know, before you can start? I think the short answer is less than you think. Because you know, you probably do have lots of the skills and knowledge already to actually get going. And obviously, that the proposition is likely to change from when you initially launch it. You know, your products and services constantly change websites change, so don't worry about getting it right the first time.

Unknown: 35:47

Yeah, I do feel passionately about this, I think it's a go back to and I think we said this right at the start, when I first joined you the way education is here in the UK, I felt very much he was like you have to be qualified before you can do something. Whereas now all the people I watched flourishing in their business, they're learning as they do it, and they reach out to people around them with more, you know, experience or who are neighbours to them, or who can offer something. And that's how they learn, you learn by making some mistakes. This idea, honestly, it drives me nuts, but I'm a product of it. You have to somehow be qualified before you can even begin. It's just such a big blog. So don't forget to say, let that put you off.

Ollie Collard: 36:26

Yeah, absolutely. Great advice there, Laura. And I think, you know, for a business like this, obviously, is slightly different in the sense that there's, you know, huge startup costs to get off the ground, the regulation, the barriers, and the market research. But I'd say for other industries, the cost to Getting Started will be much lower. Generally speaking, like you say, it's your mindset that's holding you back, rather than anything else. And actually, you just need to have that conviction and confidence to get started. And put that sort of barrier to the back of your mind. And what I generally say is try and fall in love with the problem, not the solution that you're providing. So if you deeply understand the problem you're looking to solve, then it will be a lot easier to take your product or service to market. Because you really have that that true understanding of it. And absolutely, what I'd say is, you know, build the track, lay the track as you're going around, don't build it before, you've got to train on it, you know, because learn as you go. And that's the best way to get started.

Unknown: 37:25

And as Ollie said, a very important point you just mentioned there, what is the problem you're seeking solve, be really clear about that. It's surprising how many people aren't a little bit woolly. And just with a little bit of refinement, they can be absolutely clear about that. And then that makes it so much more straightforward. Let's look ahead, shall we and find out from Aaron what she thinks the future for flow neuroscience is looking like. Awesome. Okay, so let's start with flow. So in the next five years, I hope that we are available to everyone in the UK, obviously, who you know, qualifies that, you know, I would love for us not to have a market and that no one is depressed. But unfortunately, I don't think that's reality. So I would love for us to be available to those that needed in the UK, I would love for us to be in the US as a frontline treatment, and that that will take some very audacious efforts. You know, I think drugs have been the status quo and the incumbent for a while. And we are very small and scrappy. But I think we have, you know, the support of our users and the support of science. And I do think you are seeing a shift in what people expect. And so if you look at things like Speaking more broadly about what I think we can see in healthcare, if you look at sort of the degree of personalization you see on Amazon Prime, or Netflix, or even your ads, like they're incredibly deeply predictive, right, Instagram is so good at selling me stuff, right. And I think we should see more of that in healthcare. For the most part, you know, clinicians are overworked, which means they don't have time to evaluate all of the new trends or protocols, which means that basically, people are treated one size fits all. And that's, you know, bluntly, bullshit. And I think people are waking up to that. And they're saying, I want to be my own doctor, like treat me as a person don't see me as one of 100. And so I think things like chat GPT will empower users to access information that might have been otherwise inaccessible. Like, do we think it will replace clinicians entirely? No, but I think it will give you the ability to review clinical studies and protocols in a way that maybe would have been inaccessible before. I think you'll see a real desire for more personalised treatments. So whether that's non drug drug plus something else, I think I you know, we obviously follow very closely the brain computer interfaces and some of what they're doing for you know, paralysis and stroke is incredible. Do I think that will be sort of status quo in five years? No, but I could be wrong. And so really, I think what I'm excited about is actually people taking back control of their treatment and really getting, you know, I think the health care experience that they deserve, which is meant for them and is fully personalised for

Ollie Collard: 40:17

them. amazing insight into the future there instead. Thank you for that. It just wanted to ask a bit about obviously, the slight conflict there with the kind of the big pharma companies, have they got a hidden agenda not to see you succeed?

Unknown: 40:31

I don't think so. You know, I think, you know, for many people, I don't say, you know, for some people, drugs work very well. And, you know, I think that's awesome. And I would never take that away. You know, I think they've been tremendously helpful for people in my own family. But as I mentioned, for two thirds of users, they aren't and unfortunately, those users are sort of left behind. So on the one hand, I want to be respectful of what Big Pharma has done, I don't think they've been incentivized to, you know, branch outside of drugs, but why would they that that's their bread and butter. And so, you know, personally, we know that many of our users use flow in tandem with drugs. Obviously, under the supervision of clinicians, we know that many of our users are able to take a lower dose, which may reduce side effects, or when it's time to come off drugs, it can tamper or like stop their withdrawal symptoms, again, with a clinician and so we actually think there's some by there's a very symbiotic relationship. And we would love to partner with Big Pharma, I think, again, our goal is not to be the end all be all to everyone. It's to improve choice. And so if we can do that with drugs, great. If we could do it alone, great. If they could do it just with drugs, great. But at the end of the day, users win, right? So patients win. And that's our goal.

Ollie Collard: 41:43

Hunter said, no, no, I was kind of thinking in the back of my mind that there must be some scope for collaboration rather than competition.

Unknown: 41:50

Yeah, call me Heiser. If you want to if you want to work with us,

Ollie Collard: 41:53

here we go. If you're listening, good stuff. The next part of the show, Aaron is a chance for you to ask our listeners a question. And I know you had something in mind. Okay.

Unknown: 42:04

So my question is, by the end of this decade, so by 2030, the leading cause of death and illness globally is expected to be colon cancer, a heart disease, be war related deaths and murder, see, or depression.

Ollie Collard: 42:25

Thank you very much. Well, we'll get some answers to that on our socials and feed it back to you. The next part of the show, Aaron is a key tenant of founded and grounded. So we ask everybody who comes on the show to just distil down one piece of advice for somebody who is an early stage founder, or somebody who's thinking of starting a business. So what would that one piece of advice be?

Unknown: 42:48

Wow, that's a tough one. I guess what I would say is, make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. And by that, I mean, I think you have to be obsessive. So don't do it. Because you want to get rich, don't do it. Because you want to be on the cover of Forbes or you want fame, honestly, there's easier ways to do it. But if it's something that you're obsessive about, and you're committed to then go for it, don't be afraid and don't quit. So I think almost anything is possible. If you're willing to be tenacious, and you're passionate about something. And that sounds very woowoo. But it's very true, like, far more things are possible with just some effort and commitment. So just make sure you're in it for for the right reason.

Ollie Collard: 43:33

Even if you're gonna fail, you might as well fail doing something you like, right? Exactly. Great stuff. And where can people find out a bit more about flow neuroscience new personally?

Unknown: 43:43

Yeah, so you can find all about flow at flow neuroscience.com. We've got a link to all of our clinical studies, we've got user testimonials, you can pick you can read more, or watch a video on how the device works. You hear from some of our clinicians, so that's all flow neuroscience.com. I'm far less interesting than our product. But if anyone has questions, you can always reach me at Aaron at flow neuroscience.com Or on LinkedIn. I'm Erin Lee.

Ollie Collard: 44:10

Amazing, Evan, thank you for that last question, which is a bit of a curveball, if I knew you better. What's one question that I would have asked you?

Unknown: 44:20

A great question. I don't know maybe how I've made it as far as I have. With such a like a potty mouth. I have actually a tendency for profanity, which isn't always seen as the most professional but I don't know, I think I've tried to be pretty transparent. So in general, I think people feel like they probably know me pretty well, even if they don't know

Ollie Collard: 44:37

what I mean. So what would be the answer to that question in terms of building your career,

Unknown: 44:42

I think and I am not encouraging people to go to the office and start coughing, you know, or swearing, but I think in general, I think people feel like you've got to put on this facade and be this like worker bee this just You know, this image that we have, and in general, I find that people respond very well to authenticity. That doesn't give you an excuse to be an asshole. But it means like, it's okay to be yourself. And I think that means being honest, I think that means admitting when you've made a mistake. I think being humble, right? And that sort of, we all have our quirks. And so unfortunately, like, what you see is what you get with me. But on the flip side, what you see is what you get. So I think that would be my answer,

Ollie Collard: 45:30

then yeah, I completely agree. I think if you're not showing up as your authentic self, then you're putting on that mask. And you're not being true to yourself. And there's going to be in a conflict there, which is going to have a long term consequence on your on your career, isn't it?

Unknown: 45:43

Well, and how boring if we're all the same, honestly, like how boring so

Ollie Collard: 45:48

I just said, I remote. Listen, thank you so much for your time, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you. Thank you.

Unknown: 45:57

Some really interesting future gazing there of touching on lots of different things. Chat GP is one of them. Personally, like more, more and more personalised health care, but all to try and improve choice for people. One of the things Aaron said, though, that struck a chord with both of us I know, is when she was saying about being yourself. And she's got a bit of a potty mouth by her own admission, but just you don't need to put on this, this front. And again, I, you know, I suspect lots of us started and had an idea of what it used to look like or be like, or have had at different points in our business life. And it's just brilliant. When I see people who actually are just themselves doing their business, it's like, yes, you're the ones who stand out the most.

Ollie Collard: 46:44

I absolutely love this, you know, from a seasoned CEO, because, you know, generally speaking, SEO sometimes can be seen as a bit corporate maybe lack a bit of personality. But yeah, I love how Aaron is just encouraging everyone to be their true kind of authentic self, and and sort of remove their work mask as well. Because I think, then you can be absolutely operating at your best if you're, if you're doing that.

Unknown: 47:08

Yeah, yeah. So here, here for all of that. And also what she said about doing it for the right reasons, her piece of advice, whatever you're doing, you should do it for the right reasons. And then be obsessive about it. Yeah, it's what you said, isn't it? Is that being in love with trying to sort the problem? You know, and that deep understanding of the problem really caring about that, and why that matters to people?

Ollie Collard: 47:33

Yeah, I mean, if you're doing it for the money, then you know, you're only going to last so long. One thing that I can guarantee being a founder is going to be a very long ride with so many ups and downs. So you better be damn well sure that you're most motivated by the right reasons, rather than just monetary ones. Because otherwise your your motivation is just going to tail off and you're probably going to close the business or sell it to somebody else who's more passionate about it.

Unknown: 48:02

And it is a wonderful feeling. When it does just click when it feels like this is your thing. This is your this is why you're getting up every morning. This is why you might make the sacrifices that we know, you know, people do have to make along the way. Because this is yeah, this is your thing. This is what you care deeply about. So it's a great kind of state and feeling to be in when you when you find it. Olli, we're almost at the end of this podcast, which means we're almost at the end of series four, which is extraordinary. We are going to catch up with Samantha in just a moment. But I do just want to do a speedy recap to say that if you would like to win the headset that we've been talking about during the course of this episode, you can do that you have the opportunity Aaron and the team have very kindly given us one headset, which we can give away to one lucky person. So if you'd like to test it for yourself, what we're asking you to do is to subscribe first of all to the podcast. And leave a review. So nice and simple, subscribe and leave a review and then we're going to pick a winner at random. The full details will share on our social media. So that will all be there. But that's essentially what we'd like you to do. So if you want a piece of this action and see how it works, then get cracking on that front. Let's let's catch up with Samantha now shall wait to find out what you have been saying on social about our previous entrepreneur and some of the points that they raised in the last podcast. So let's just have a little catch up of who's been saying what last episode our penultimate episode of this season. We spoke to Cameron grant about his journey along with his brother setting up on yoked with the simple goal of reconnecting people back with nature. Such a amazing story of creativity, clarity and calm. It's so important to get out there in nature and especially for entrepreneurs. So if you're a founder stuck in a rut suffering Mental fatigue, low productivity. Swapping screen time for green time is one of these things that's really obvious but so hard to do. So hearing the science behind it, and how the brothers started out with a couple of cabins in the wild, in that homeland of Australia, all the way through to becoming a globally recognised nature brand. Closing in on 100, sustainable off grid cabins in four countries, was an amazing story to listen to. And so important for those of us in business who need to remind ourselves to take that time to switch off and reconnect with nature. absolute bliss, and definitely one to think about if you are in that phase in your business in your mindset right now. But of course, we spoke to Cameron about what his question for you was, as all of our guests come along with a question for you, our listeners. And comm asked you which founder was or is known to use Nietzsche in their routines to help them think and come up with better ideas. Our options were Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Phil Knight for all of the above. Now, you responded, and we had about 25% of you say Bill Gates, 17% of you say Steve Jobs, only 8% of you say Phil Knight, and correctly 50% of you say all of the above? The answer is all of the above all of these founders really utilise nature in their routines. It is such an important tool for getting that clarity, getting the space to think and getting the correct mindset to help you in your business and help you grow. So fantastic to see so many of you, knowing that all of them really utilise nature in that business. So if you'd like to hear more about how it nature helps with that process, how important it is for business, and how to bring it into your day to day, then I definitely recommend checking out our last episode. As usual, if you have any thoughts on this, or if you listen back to the episode on replay at a later date, then please do come and share your thoughts, your answers to the question your own experiences of how nature helps you in your business on any of our social media platforms. We'd love to hear from you. You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, or Twitter. And we would love to hear from you. Fabulous, right? Well, you know where to find us. You know how to enter the competition. You know that Ali and I are going to be off taking a well deserved rest or break this summer and bringing series four to a close but we really look forward to being back with you. around mid September. Just keep an eye on our social media because we'll trail it all on there. But thank you so much for listening. It's been great to be part. It's been great to be part of this and to be here with you too already. So thank you.

Ollie Collard: 53:04

Thank you and thank you everyone for listening and can't wait for season five to launch in September.

Unknown: 53:11

Thank you for listening to founded and grounded with Ollie collard and Laura Rawlings. If you've enjoyed this free podcast, we'd love you to recommend it to someone else. You can leave a review on Apple podcasts regardless of where you get your podcasts from. And join our online community and share your comments with us. We're on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram is always good to hear from you