Phasecraft: Leap into the future with Quantum Algorithms

What comes to mind when you think of the future? Flying cars, human-like robots, time travel? But what about quantum computing?

Prepare to have your mind blown.

Join us for an exhilarating journey into the future with Phasecraft, a groundbreaking startup that is pushing the boundaries of algorithmic innovation in the quantum realm.

Get an insider view from Ashley Montanaro - co-founder & CEO - as he unravels the mysteries of quantum computing

Key Takeaways

- Explore the Infinite: Discover the transformative potential of quantum algorithms and witness how Phasecraft will help create breakthroughs in battery development and material science.

- Inspiration: Hear the unvarnished accounts of the co-founders' personal lives that blend life and work, whilst raising young families.

- Shape the Future: Uncover the impact of quantum computing on future technologies and industries

Have questions about this episode? Ask our hosts, chat now via our website

Transcript

Unknown: 0:08

The amazing thing about quantum computing is that we can actually take advantage of these features to perform computations that are just beyond the reach of even the world's best supercomputers today. You're listening to find it and grounded with Ollie collard and Dr. Becky sage. The podcast brings you the honest realities of startup life. If you're a founder or aspiring entrepreneur, this is for you. We know running a business can be lonely and tough at times. And we want to help you get ahead with simple tips and sound advice. Every fortnight we hear inspiring stories from an early stage business owner, who's only a couple of steps ahead of you, talking about what they've learned. And as your hosts, we share our insights and experiences as founders. So you can apply this to your own business. Hello, and welcome to a brand new year here. I'm founded and grounded. I'm Dr. Becky sage, and I'm here today with Ollie collard. Happy New Year Ollie, how's 20/21 starting for you?

Ollie Collard: 1:21

It's great. I always like the buzz of a new year and new opportunity and what the future is going to hold in 2024. Feeling very optimistic about it. What about yourself?

Unknown: 1:31

Yeah, I feel really good. I feel like 2023 was sort of a clear out year kind of gotten rid of a lot of stuff and, and 2024 There's no space for new things. And in fact, I'm starting the year with a new role I've just become entrepreneur in residence at SETsquared in Bath. So really excited to be working with lots of entrepreneurs who I haven't yet met. Congratulations,

Ollie Collard: 1:57

what types of businesses you're going to be supporting there,

Unknown: 2:00

I'll be focusing on the health tech sector. So it's health and wellness, which is quite broad. And working with all stages ready from idea businesses, right up to those who are a lot more mature, who have already got revenue already got investment. So supporting them in all sorts of different ways from, like we said, kind of going through that investment process to thinking about building your teams and leadership. So lots of opportunities, I'm really excited to be working with a new set of entrepreneurs.

Ollie Collard: 2:33

Amazing was a good way to start the new year with a new role back here.

Unknown: 2:37

Yeah, absolutely. Hopefully, the year continues as it started. So Ali, who are we talking to this week.

Ollie Collard: 2:46

So we've got Ashley, who is the founder, but also the CEO of phase craft phase craft develop quantum algorithms to help solve real world problems.

Unknown: 2:58

As we said at the beginning, this business might seem mind blowing to many of our listeners. And it is incredibly different from a lot of the businesses that we work with and that we speak to. For me, this is actually a lot more familiar. I have a PhD in chemical physics. And I actually do still read some things about quantum physics for fun sometimes. So it's not so alienating. And of course, I'm very used to working with high tech businesses and innovative businesses, which have to be built on partnership and collaboration and aren't necessarily using traditional revenue models. In the early stages. They often also need a lot more early stage investment, because it's such a technically heavy product or service that they are building and delivering.

Ollie Collard: 3:51

Good afternoon, Ashley, how you doing?

Unknown: 3:53

I'm okay. Thank you. It's great to be here.

Ollie Collard: 3:55

Fantastic. Well, it's a real treat to have you on the show. So thank you for taking time out of your hectic schedule to join us. Ashley, firstly, could you share with us what inspired you to co found face craft? And I'm interested to know, was there a pivotal moment that led you on your journey here?

Unknown: 4:12

Yes. So maybe it's helpful first me to go right the way back to when I first got into the field of quantum computing. So back in 2004, which is the time when I guess not all of your listeners are even alive. And I was working in the software industry working on software for smartphones before they were known as smartphones. And at that time, I started hearing about quantum computing. And I looked into it a bit and I thought, Okay, this seems like a very exciting technology, but I just can't believe all of the stories about it. I can't believe it could actually do these things that people are saying. But then I started reading more and more about it. And I started thinking well, you know, it seems like these are some pretty serious people actually work on it. This actually seems pretty exciting. And eventually I got so excited by it that I ended up doing a PhD in the subject at University of Bristol and then I've been work in the fields ever since. And then it got to sort of 2017 2018 kind of time. And my co founders, Toby, Kuba, and John Morton, and I who are all of us are working in the field of quantum computing. We had seen all of the amazing developments that are happening in quantum computing hardware, there had been amazing progress over the last 10 years or so. And it was clear that the field was moving beyond just an academic theoretical exercise to genuine commercial viability. But we thought that, really, there was still a lot to be done on the algorithms and the software side. So we felt that in order to really make the most out of quantum computing, and to really take advantage of the technologies promise, it will be essential to actually develop breakthrough algorithms breakthrough software that would really make the most out of the near term quantum hardware that we had then or that we have now. So we decided that the right thing to do to do this was to form a company to really develop these algorithms in this software. So we set up face craft in order to do that to take the knowledge that we've built up in academia, but really apply it in a commercial context. And then that's our face. Crawford's been

Ollie Collard: 6:13

amazing. And they're, they're two quite different worlds, aren't they academia and building a commercial business? So was there any areas that you kind of struggled with collectively in these early days?

Unknown: 6:25

I think that's quite right, that they are different, they have sort of different fields to them, they operate at different speeds, obviously, I mean, academia, famously, you know, operates in a very sort of considered sort of pace where people take a long time to think about things. Whereas in a startup, you often need to do things straightaway make decisions straightaway. But actually, I think all of us felt that there are a lot of the skills that you learn in academia, which are actually very relevant to running a startup. So often, in academia, if you become a faculty member, you end up running a research group, you end up working with a team trying to enable them to do the best that they can do, you end up working on promoting your own work, you ended up doing a lot of the sort of management side as well. So actually, I think a lot of these skills are transferable. But there's definitely a learning process. Because there are many things that you do in a startup, which you just don't do in academia, and vice versa. And so I think everyone that comes into this startup world from academia, has a real sort of uphill battle to go to learn some of these things.

Ollie Collard: 7:28

And Ashley, for our listeners that might be new to this field, can you explain in very simple terms, what quantum computing is, and how it differs from classical computing?

Unknown: 7:39

Sure, so a quantum computer is a machine which uses quantum mechanics to do things that are just impossible for any standard or so called classical computer that only uses classical physics of the kind that was familiar to Isaac Newton and and people of that sort of era. Quantum mechanics has some amazing features such as quantum superposition and quantum entanglement, which go beyond standards, you know, traditional physics. And the amazing thing about quantum computing is that we can actually take advantage of these features to perform computations that are just beyond the reach of even the world's best supercomputers today that do not use quantum computing. So one area in which quantum computing is particularly valuable, or particularly natural to us, is modelling and simulating physical systems where quantum mechanics plays a key role. So physical systems where in order to understand them, you need to understand quantum mechanics. And it turns out that the entire universe is quantum mechanical, that everything around us is ultimately based on quantum mechanics. But in many cases, we don't need to think about quantum mechanics, if we understand our day to day lives, we don't use quantum mechanics everyday to do so. But there are some things such as batteries and solar cells were actually it is critically important to understand these quantum effects. So it's modelling physical properties of things like this, where quantum computing is, we think, going to be incredibly valuable in the coming years. Amazing,

Ollie Collard: 9:09

and how is phase craft really disrupting the space.

Unknown: 9:13

So what we're trying to do is we're trying to develop the breakthrough quantum algorithms and quantum software that really cut down the resource requirements of quantum algorithms, so that we can run them on the sort of quantum computing hardware that we have in the next few years. So what we often say is that the equivalent of today's quantum computing hardware from the classical perspective is about the 1940s or the 1950s. So we're really in the very early stages of quantum computing, these machines are still able to outperform the world's best supercomputers for some particular tasks. But so far, nobody has actually demonstrated quantum computing outperforming classical computing for a task, which is Something that people genuinely care about, for practical reasons beyond just demonstrating the capabilities of the quantum hardware. So the sorts of problems where people have demonstrated a quantum advantage so far, are ones which are specifically targeted to show that the quantum computer is great their problems where the quantum computer naturally finds it very easy, but a classical computer would find it very hard. Whereas what we want to do is we want to develop algorithms for problems which people want to care about. And they don't care how it's solved. Like, they'd be happy with the quantum computer, they'd be happy with anything that just solves this critically important problem, perhaps in the development of a novel battery, cathode materials, something like that.

Ollie Collard: 10:39

You're obviously partnering with some of the leading hardware companies like IBM, and a number of other companies as well. Is there a point where you've got potentially too many partnerships? I imagine there's lots of people queuing up wanting to work with you guys. But is there a point where there's a bit of a tipping point? And you have to say, No,

Unknown: 10:59

that's a great point. So a fascinating thing about the quantum hardware communities that actually there are already quite a number of quantum hardware companies out there, there's a number of different efforts underway to build quantum computers, many different technologies, many different great startups here in the UK and elsewhere. And we're a relatively small company, we have to think in quite a focused way about the best way of partnering with companies on the hardware side. So we are indeed having to be pretty selective, pretty focused. And we aim to work with the hardware companies, which really are going to enable us to get to a quantum advantage as quickly as possible. Can

Ollie Collard: 11:38

you tell me about some of your exciting projects or research areas that phase Krause is currently working on? And how do these projects really push the boundaries?

Unknown: 11:48

Yeah, so I can discuss a couple of things. So one, for example, is some work we completed last year, which was a project together with Google, where we implemented our quantum algorithms for modelling a famous system in quantum mechanics and condensed matter physics, which is called the Fermi Hubbard model. And this is a model, which goes back about 50 years time, it is a notorious unsolved problem in condensed matter physics. And it might underpin the theory of high temperature superconductivity. And what we did is we developed an ultra efficient algorithm for modelling this particular physical model. And we implemented this on Google's worldleading quantum hardware. And our our algorithm, and associated error mitigation techniques enabled us to solve instances that were four times bigger than had previously been done in the literature, and also significantly more complex quantum circuits that we were able to execute. So this was very exciting for us, because it really validated our approach for these algorithms. And it's showed us that we could get meaningful physical information out from this still very early stage, very sort of relatively limited quantum hardware. And it was obviously fantastic to work with our partners at Google as well. And so that's an example of the work we're doing on implementing on hardware. I can also mention other work where we are actually trying to develop Ultra efficient algorithms for modelling materials systems. So physical systems that in particular, are relevant for material science, such as developing batteries, developing solar cells. And in this work, we were able to reduce the costs of modelling certain materials by factors of a million or more compared with the best previous work in the literature. So again, this is all part of our mission to bring down the resource requirements for the algorithms and bring them closer and closer to the real world hardware that we have today.

Ollie Collard: 13:57

Amazing Ashley and rewinding back a bit further than going back to the days where, you know, there was a three of you that knew each other, you know, your area of expertise in quantum computing, you're obviously very passionate about it. How did you go from taking that leap of faith to start the business to actually validating the business idea into a commercial entity?

Unknown: 14:20

Yes. So when we started face craft, all of us were actually only working for the company for a small amount of the time we were. Toby and I were each only 20% of the time with spacecraft and we still were primarily keeping our academic roles. And in this very early stage, we were effectively starting with nothing beyond our own sort of backgrounds and knowledge of the area. And the confidence that we were going to have some ideas which were going to enable us to do some really interesting things. And then over the coming months, we firstly got some funding some precede funding from Last summer on great investors, which enabled us to start hiring a team. And we were also working with some amazing PhD students as well from Bristol University and UCL. And this enabled us to really start to validate our approach and to start the process of working out the algorithmic ideas that that we had, and checking that they actually performed as we expected. This involved some theoretical work, some numerical simulations. And this really, in the early stages enabled us to build up some confidence that there really is something quite exciting going on here. And we think that we are going to be doing something very important, very interesting with relatively near term quantum hardware. And this, this early stage enabled us to build to then raising more funding in our seed funding round, which was actually during COVID, which is an interesting time to be raising money. And then we went on from that and to continue to grow, the team continue to make some of these breakthroughs that I just mentioned, and right the way through to our recent series, a funding round, and we now have a team of around 25 people. So throughout this whole time, we were building the technology, we're developing the algorithms developing the software, but we're also developing the partnerships that we have with our great end users that we're working with also quantum hardware companies we've discussed. And we were also bringing in grant funding as well from the EU, from UK government and elsewhere, which has also really helped us to push the technology forward and also build some of these relationships with our partners.

Ollie Collard: 16:42

And talking of relationships and partnerships, particularly with educational institutions. So you partner with obviously UCL University of Bristol, some of the world's leading universities, can you tell us about the maybe the benefits for maybe some people listening, that's involved in working so closely with university partners. So

Unknown: 17:04

the field of quantum computing is at this really interesting stage to where it's really on the boundary between academia and industry. So we are working in industry, but many of the partners, their collaborators that we have are in academia, we go to academic conferences, we're part of the scientific community. So it's really essential for us to keep these strong academic links. So one sort of very concrete way in which this has been incredibly valuable for us is that we have been working with a number of PhD students during our time at face crafts. And they are doing PhDs at a university like perhaps Bristol or UCL, but they're actually sitting with the company and they're embedded with the team. And they're working very closely with us on problems which are of great sort of theoretical academic interest, but they're also ones which are directly relevant to our business. So this sort of link has been super valuable. And in this context, we're very pleased to be supporting the centres for doctoral training in quantum computing at both Bristol and and UCL where they're training around 10 to 12 people a year in different aspects of quantum technologies. So I think these sorts of links are, are really important, but I think also just on a more sort of abstract level, I think just maintaining part of this academic conversation I think is really important for a company like us. Word about our sponsors. The security threat to UK tech startups is growing. Protecting your innovation is crucial to your business success. Secure innovation is here to help and it only takes a few simple steps to get started. Don't leave it too late. Visit npsa.gov.uk forward slash innovation. To find out more and download the quickstart guide for free today. Are you looking to access finance for your business but unsure where to go and who to trust? Introducing hexa finance, providing growth funding to startups and scale ups throughout the UK, Ben and stews started extra finance with a clear mission to make finance more accessible to business owners like you. Launched in 2020. They know firsthand the growing pains you're facing their fast growth business is the proud winner of the startup of the Year Award and has recently been recognised for its economic contribution. So if you need funding now, or it's on your horizon, the experienced team at hexar finance are here to help to access your free consultation. Simply go to hexar finance.co.uk forward slash contact. So let's delve into quantum a little bit more, shall we? See if we can unpick and demystify. So much of what we take for granted in the world around us. And the things that underpin our lives are actually built on quantum phenomena. So even the sun shining is a quantum process that's behind this. And many of us will remember from school, so called Newtonian physics, or classical physics, this is what we would have had to have done for our GCSEs. And this serves a lot of our needs. However, it doesn't explain the full picture. And this is why we need to also understand quantum phenomena, and why quantum computing is ultimately going to be so helpful for solving many of the problems that exist in the world today. To date, a lot of investment in quantum computing has gone into hardware, but really not much is gone into software or algorithms yet. So do you think that Ashley was really jumping on on opportunity here in terms of building a business on the software side of quantum computing live,

Ollie Collard: 21:11

he was jumping in an opportunity because he's spent so many years in the field and has got this deep understanding about the sector. And hands up from my perspective, I haven't done anything to do with physics since GCSE. So some of it has gone over my head, Becky, so I was asking your academic background a bit more about some of the ins and outs of it enables a lot of possibilities and so many different fields. And I think we were having a conversation before about, you know, if we were talking 10 years ago about the development of AI, you know, the average person probably wouldn't have much to say on the topic. But I think because AI is now quite a big part of a lot of people's lives. And, you know, the tangible ways in which they're using it, whether it's things like chat, GPT, or the new Google product, Gemini, I think that it's already had a big impact. Whereas we're on a cusp of a big impact with Quantum. And it's actually really, really exciting.

Unknown: 22:13

Yeah, it's incredibly exciting. And I think into for many of us, until we get our hands on something, and we're able to use it, we're not going to build that in depth understanding. And I think the beauty of this interview and understanding more about quantum is really to look at it from the point of view of a business that is still being you know, it's run by humans. I mean, maybe once quantum computing and AI come together, we'll have many businesses not run by humans, but until that time, and we, the a lot of the things that underpin business are still the same. But there are also differences. And I think that being in a field that is still so research intensive, has a very, very different feel to it than many other businesses. But I think it's really interesting to hear about business from a completely different perspective. And the key things I took away in terms of just what what is this technology? How does it work? Why is it important to have a business in this space, is the fact that, like we said, we've got this hardware, and now we need software in order to use the hardware. And I don't think any of us can, in our heads really compute how much better this thing is, than the computers, the devices that we already have. But we're talking society 5.0. Here, we're talking a new phase, we think that charge GPD is different, we think AI is different. But once quantum computing comes on board, it's the kind of problems it's going to be able to solve and the speed at which it's going to be able to solve those problems, like nothing that we have known before.

Ollie Collard: 24:02

Yes, it's quite hard to fathom, isn't it? It's going to be this massive step change. And I think you just did the mind blowing emoji, which pretty much sums it up, where the opportunity is really interesting as well is that what this will enable is previously, lots of businesses that were developing in this field were very technical, but also what this does it in a way opens up the playing field and levels there. So I think it's a really exciting point of time. Absolutely.

Unknown: 24:31

And I think, you know, if anyone's kind of wanting to jump on it immediately, you probably still going to have to wait a little bit longer to really see this market come into fruition. What we're seeing at the moment is still lots and lots of different use cases more than anything else. Most of the work being done is being done in a very project based way and it's looking at specific problems. And I know that there has been lots of different you Use Cases looked at by different companies. So for example, things to do with asset management things in the financial sector, of course, this often is where things take off initially. But you've got lots and lots of transactions, as quantum computer can work very, very quickly, to predict to model what's going to happen. Same goes for other aspects, for example, in healthcare, in drug discovery, and climate, tech and energy in education, there's all these different use cases. So and that's the phase that this whole market is at at the moment. But that's how everything starts. Yeah,

Ollie Collard: 25:33

I think I was jumping ahead a bit there, Becky, looking at the possible opportunities. But yeah, I think, ultimately, is very exciting, even though if we're not there quite yet. It's on. It's on the horizon. And we can see it

Unknown: 25:45

honestly, I saw the entrepreneurial glint in your eye. I was like, maybe there's something we've got here, Ali, if our listeners don't get there first. And so I guess people might be listening in and think like, what can I even learn about this. But I think one of the key things is around future gazing. And like you said, I think I think that actually didn't get into this field. From an opportunity, Mystic perspective, this is an area that he has deep interest in, that is an area of research. And ultimately, they've just continued to do that and focus that and they've chosen to run it from a more of a commercial entity than inside a research organisation. But what he has done very, very well, is to look ahead and say, look at all these investment that's going into the hardware, the hardware alone is not going to be able to do the job. We need software, we need algorithms. And that's the expertise that he and his team have, have got, and are continuing to develop, build those partnerships, and turn into this successful commercial entity. And

Ollie Collard: 26:50

I think what you said that it's about the team, like there's obviously the free co founders with all of their amazing, wonderful expertise in coming together and having that combined expertise. But as you say, it's about what kind of partnership piece and working with the right organisations that also believe in their vision. And then you just have to look at the amount of money that they've raised to see that this is a very big opportunity.

Unknown: 27:14

Yeah, I know, something a lot of people do think about in the context of business is research and innovation. And a lot of the times we think research can only exist inside a university or inside some kind of academic organisation, or, yeah, some kind of research institution. But we do see in many cases research happening inside of commercial businesses. And here's one example. And so I thought that it was it would be interesting, just to quickly look at what we can learn from Ashley, as somebody who's leading this business that is a kind of hybrid, really, in terms of research and a commercial business. And I like that Ashley challenged a common perception that the academic and commercial worlds are very different. In fact, what I think is that the academic and commercial worlds, of course, have their differences. But there's more of a difference between some businesses even think about the one we that we talked to last our last interview seriously low carb, and this business phase craft, much bigger difference between those two than there is between probably phase craft and a university department, for example. So why do you think this perception prevails? That the academic and commercial worlds are so different?

Ollie Collard: 28:40

It's a great question, I think it probably stems back down to if you think of the word academic, you probably think of probably somebody quite elderly, dedicating their life to a particular topic or, or area of research. And I think obviously, the commercial world works quite differently. But as you say, I think Ashley's point about having lots of similarities as well, although they are different worlds, as you say, to businesses can be very different. And we've just summed that up with the last two episodes of this podcast. But I think Ashley has looked at how can he apply what he's learned in an academic setting, particularly around the kind of rigorous thinking and how can you apply that to the world of business? And I think that, you know, at this stage, the business model is still in its infancy, and a lot of it is based around research. They also so yes, while while there's challenges and differences between the two, I think that there are a lot of similarities as Ashley is highlighted, and I think it's always a sign of a good entrepreneur, is to actually challenge the status quo or common misconceptions and actually, that can be your strength.

Unknown: 29:55

I've seen a lot of research intensive startups try to behave You've more like maybe a DTC business. So you know, and I actually think that, like you said, the being entrepreneurial is about understanding what works best for you. And being in a business that is very research intensive, you've got to understand that that's where you're at. And maybe the way you're going to build out your business is going to be different, especially if you've got a big tech build to do, you can't get to that revenue quickly. And you can't measure yourself against those other organisations that are going, I did a we built an app in three months, and then we get out there and we've got a million, you know, annual recurring revenue, and in the first year, or whatever it is, you just can't compare yourself to that you have to build your strategy in a different way. And I think that, and again, Ashley described a lot of this, so much of it is about partnerships that become so important in terms of both doing your r&d, getting the right kind of credibility around your work, but also is your revenue driver in those early years. And your marketing will be sector specific, quite often probably academic conferences that you go to your marketing, we'll be getting papers out there. That's something that we did in, in my first business, which was you publish academic papers, because some of our audience, much of our audience was was a research intensive audience. So you definitely need to be adapting your style, your strategy, depending on who the business is. And I think that Ashley has just shown a complete kind of inherent understanding of what's going to work for the business. Because of course, Ashley didn't make this happen on his own, he has a team of co founders. So let's hear more about them now. Toby, and Jonathan I've known for for many years now, Toby in particular, was a long term collaborator of mine. So he's also a theorist working on quantum computing. But with a background more on the physics side, like theoretical physics, and whereas my background is more on the algorithms, and computer science, and whereas John's background is actually an experimental quantum computing. He's an expert in silicon based quantum computing. And this sort of feeds into actually how we've worked together as a part of the company. So it's totally an either to really sort of setting the direction of the company day to day and working, working together very closely to do that and solve the develop the scientific, and indeed, the commercial strategy as well. Whereas John, was critical in setting up the company because he actually has a lot of experience in quantum industry, having set up to previous companies in this space, and is now still providing us with with excellent advice about all aspects of the company's development. So Toby, and I have now I've got respect for these titles of CEO and CTO and Chief Science Officer. But which I think is somehow reflects the rough areas of focus that we now have within the company, in that I'm perhaps taking more of a role on the sort of commercial and business end, whereas Toby's taking more of a role on the science end. But I think that we were still working very much on freight in many different aspects of the company and trying to ensure that each of us has a good idea of what's going on across across everything and is indeed, you know, consulted and involved with everything. But this has, this has definitely been something which has been a, an ongoing process since the company started that when we began, they were just a few of us, and everyone just did everything. And now, as the team gets bigger, it's just impossible for everyone to do everything. So we are trying more and more to make things more efficient, and ensure that we're not duplicating work by everyone feeling that they do need to do

Ollie Collard: 34:02

everything. Yeah, it's a bit of a transition, isn't it from being aware of many hats to having more defined roles? And as the team grows? Have there been any moments where there's been conflict between the three of you and how do you agree on making a final decision?

Unknown: 34:20

So I think in any startup, it would be impossible if everyone just agreed on everything since you know, day one of the company and probably that's not very healthy, to be honest. So I would say, inevitably, there have been times when we haven't agreed about one thing or another. I think we have always resolved any of these disagreements very amicably. I think it's quite helpful. And on a basic level, it's quite helpful just having three founders because it means that in fact, you know, you're outnumbered usually generally as possible to break any ties. So this is not always true. There are cases where, you know, there are two people each thinking differently. And the third person actually is pretty neutral. So, yeah, there are cases where it's helpful to talk to somebody else. And we have a fantastic Chair of our Board in Hogarth, who is also the chair of the UK government's frontier AI Task Force. And he's been incredibly helpful in helping us kind of develop a framework for for building the company together since we started. But yeah, I think the key thing there, it's, you know, probably sort of obvious observation, the key thing is to just try to keep communicating, I think, and it's a very sort of intense relationship, I think many people would say, being startup co founders, and it's one that you have to build and work out over a long period of

Ollie Collard: 35:51

time. Yeah, and I guess you've got the benefit of having that history between the three of you as well. And between the three of you, you've got eight children. And so how do you manage running a startup and having busy family lives as well? Yeah, this

Unknown: 36:07

is definitely an interesting one. I think, in some respects, it actually kind of helps that all three of us have busy family lives, because it means that everyone's in somewhat similar boat, though, you know, John, is, the end has got twice as many children as each of Toby and I do. But yeah, I think that basically, all of us appreciate that. It's critical to be flexible, about, about balancing work and family lives. Each of us has different constraints on that front. And in my case, for example, I always try to pick up my son from nursery and take him home and be around for early evening for dinner and try to be around for bedtime. And, you know, this generally works out okay. I mean, the result is that sometimes I might have a meeting later in the evening or something like this. But generally, I think it is viable to make this sort of thing work. I mean, it's not easy, and it needs some sort of flexibility from from everybody. But I think that all of us agreed that that's really the kind of company that we want to build one where we do have respect for people's family constraints, and we try and enable them to achieve good work life balance. So really, that should definitely apply to the founders as well. So I think we are pretty good at appreciating that and trying to ensure that this happens.

Ollie Collard: 37:41

So face craft have published around 17 research papers. Can you name one benefit of being a scientist and academic in helping you run a business and one downside?

Unknown: 37:57

So I think one benefit of being an academic is basically the training that you have in rigorous thinking, which is not just being able to do maths, I think it's also enabling you to decide when when an idea isn't sort of working out when something actually is not going to succeed when an answer is something is just kind of wrong. And think, sort of in quite a hard headed way about, like, you know, we're not going to do that this, this approach just is not correct. And, and I think that this, this is very helpful for both internally for enabling you to decide when some ideas of where he actually should move on to something else, but also, in how you present yourself externally, and trying to take a an honest and realistic view about what the company's achieved, and what the challenges are, but also what the opportunities are, and thinking about downsides. I would say, possibly the thing I just said, you know, it's possible to go too far, actually with that. And one thing that I think you do learn when coming into this startup space is that the the level of optimism is a different sort of plane to in academia. And I think there's nothing wrong with that. It's just a different viewpoint. And I think it is important as an academic coming into the startup world to try to, to restrain any scientific pessimism that you might have and think, Well, actually, maybe this is going to work, maybe we should be enthusiastic about it and positive about it. Because like the field that I was in, in quantum computing, many people spend their entire academic careers proving that something is impossible. And like what we're trying to do is exactly the opposite, basically. And I think it's just important to get into that mindset and Some people do struggle to do that.

Ollie Collard: 40:02

I know you've just closed your series a funding round of 13 million pounds. Firstly, obviously, congratulations on that. It's been led by some of the most prestigious institutional investors. If you're a founder going into your first round of fundraising, what should you be aware of?

Unknown: 40:23

I think the main point I would make for founders going into this world for the first time, is that it is critically important to have advice from somebody who's done it before, I think it is extremely difficult to do it without anybody on your team or in your corner who has been through this process, because effectively the people that you are talking to and ultimately negotiating with, they have seen 100 different deals, and you have seen zero. And I think this is just inevitable, it's how it works. And I think it is just very difficult to end up getting the right conclusion for yourself and for your own business, if you don't have at least some knowledge around the table of how things have been how things work, because it is just a different, slightly different world, like the terminology is different to what you may be used to from academia, the way people think is maybe a little bit different. And also just getting an understanding of what is standard. What's normal in the world of startup fundraising, is something that is hard to get without some previous knowledge in this area as well. Correct advice, or

Ollie Collard: 41:35

Ashley? And talking of real world problems? You mentioned at the start about some of the areas that you're working on? Where do you see some of the biggest gains in terms of quantum computing coming in the next 10 years.

Unknown: 41:50

So we think that some of the most important areas where quantum computing will be applied are in modelling and simulating quantum systems coming from material science. So the sort of application areas we're thinking about are developing new battery cathodes developing new solar cells. And the sort of thing that we have in mind is that at the moment, if you want to develop new, highly efficient battery cathode, maybe with better energy density than what currently exists, because classical modelling methods are not accurate enough, you actually ended up having to test these things out in the lab, which can be extremely time consuming and expensive. So what we would like is to be able to test and validate hundreds of different battery materials in the computer on the quantum computer. And then when you've narrowed this down to just a few potential candidates, those are the ones that you test out in the lab. So we think that this is an area where quantum computing could make a genuine impact in the next few years. So this is the sort of area that we're particularly excited about. And we believe that this will have direct applications to new clean energy technologies, for example, for battery storage, for renewable energy. So so we think areas where quantum mechanics plays an important role are really important. We're also quite interested in near term optimization algorithms. So algorithms that solve hard company a very complex optimization challenges, which are currently beyond the reach of classical methods. So there's this these are all areas, which we think are going to be important in the near term.

Ollie Collard: 43:30

Amazing. So for a manufacturer, for example, it would essentially reduce the costs of doing the r&d phase and bring a product to market a lot quicker. Yep, that's exactly right. Fantastic. business can be all consuming at times. What's one sacrifice that you've made? either consciously or subconsciously?

Unknown: 43:53

Yeah, that's a really great question. So I think that, in the end, there are only so many hours of the day. So like, we've discussed our family commitments and how these are important to me and to all of my co founders. And effectively, you know, at least in my case, once you take into account family commitments and work commitments, that is basically the whole week. So I would say anything beyond that is probably the sacrifice that in my case, that I have made over the last few years, which, frankly, I think many people with families would say the same whatever sort of industry or area they're in. But for me, I think the realisation that time is very finite, and there's only so much you can do is the key one.

Ollie Collard: 44:38

And I guess you've got the benefit of working with some of your friends anyway. So you get that time at least in the business. Yeah,

Unknown: 44:44

that's right. I think something that's important to all of us is that we are building a friendly and, and sociable company which is just a nice place for people to work and they're feeling that it's a very comfortable and supportive environment. And this doesn't mean staying at the office, you know, all hours if, if it's not necessary, but we are hoping that people feel that they're not sort of needing to go home exactly at a certain time on the dock, because they're actually having a good time at work, and they're enjoying interacting with their colleagues. So face craft seems to me to be a business that has been built around passion and deep expertise. It feels like it's part of its culture. So I want to talk about quantum leadership, which probably the team of phase craft will not adhere much to. But quantum leadership is leadership philosophy. And there is a principle in quantum leadership, which is about being driven by curiosity, and exploration. And of course, in this kind of setting, that's exactly what's going on. They've got a workforce that is driven by deep curiosity, in one of the most complex and potentially impactful fields. This curiosity is one of the key traits of being an academic. So should we talk a little bit more about the pros and cons of coming from an academic background and taking that into business? And we talked a little bit about this already. But let's dig in a little bit more. What do you think the pros and cons are?

Ollie Collard: 46:27

I think one of the cons that really stood out to me was about having this scientific methodology, and having this bit of a pessimistic view if something isn't working, because sometimes in the world of business, you do naturally have to be quite optimistic that something's going to work. So it's about how do you bridge that gap between the two. And I think that was a bit of a challenge. But the fact that Ashley has identified that means that he's he's already getting to grips with how to overcome it.

Unknown: 46:57

This was such an enlightening moment. For me, it was such a validating moment for me hearing Ashley say this, because I've never articulated it like this. But I've really struggled with this so called Scientific pessimism, right back to when I was doing research when I was, you know, when I was doing my PhD, and I really struggled with the kind of I wanted everything to be applications focused and to have a use, and which is probably why I've ended up in more of an entrepreneurial field than in academia. But it felt like I actually felt it very draining. To the point of I think, impacted my mental health when I was in research environments of everything felt like it wasn't good enough. Any idea and and some of this is the propensity just to question everything, which is not a bad thing. I just talked about curiosity being a positive thing. But some of it is also how do people ask questions, and I think that that was something I struggled with a lot in academia was that it felt like there was no kind of compassion in the asking of questions. And I really liked the way that like you said, Ashley's identified this and still taking the questions, but adding some of that optimism in because I know he did say like some people spend their entire careers trying to disprove a theory, or prove that something's not going to work. And that has its place, I guess, depending on what it is. But it also to me, given the world that we live in, given all the challenges that we've faced, given the that we only have, like the finite resource of kind of our energy in our life, I've always wanted to be definitely looking more at how can we make a positive impact? How can we be optimistic for change? Gosh, I don't know how I could live if I wasn't optimistic for change sometimes. Yeah,

Ollie Collard: 49:00

I don't think that the world of academia would suit me personally speaking, I think I would find it very hard to motivate myself if I wasn't seeing a tangible output or outcome. And just seeing all this negativity, literally, if I was swimming in a sea of poo, and every day, I just don't know how I could motivate myself and sort of benchmark myself and get out of bed every day. So I'm not surprised that yeah, obviously, it led to you questioning your own sanity.

Unknown: 49:30

You just described my PhD experience, was just spinning, swimming in a pool of poo and not wanting to get out of bed every day. Yeah, it was it was tough. I mean, other reasons. It was tough as well. And I should say, not every academic environments like this. And actually, culturally, I think that there's been good shifts in academia in many places. And that's helpful because it's not just this place where everyone's doing kind of blue skies research. trying to disprove theories and be really grumpy about it. But, but it is definitely and but I did think when Ashley explained this concept of scientific pessimism, it did ring true for me. But he also talked about some other things. So the more positive side of it, of course, the rigorous thinking, which is a two sided coin as an entrepreneur, for sure. And I've experienced that personally. And I've seen it a lot with the people I work with, many of whom do have a academic background. And so the rigorous thinking means that we do go in depth into a lot of things. But you can get that analysis paralysis, if you do spend too long on the thinking. So the two sided coin there. Yeah,

Ollie Collard: 50:46

I think we spoke about it in the couple of episodes ago about potentially Arriving at a decision and potentially sometimes overthinking something. But I think, as you say, it definitely is a positive in terms of Ashley's application of rigorous thinking in the commercial world. Because, I mean, ultimately, business isn't that complicated. I think if you've got a very clear understanding of your market, and the deep expertise of as they all have, I think that he can probably overcome any challenge. And it's gonna be a bit dwarfed in comparison. But that says, an outsider looking in

Unknown: 51:26

something he said, which also made me think it was a bit of an aha moment for me. And we've talked about this a lot with when we've talked about co founders, which is to, he didn't say this in so many words, I'm paraphrasing, but he essentially said, expect the disagreement. And that, to me was really eye opening, because we have talked about this with a lot of people who've got co founders where they've said, Yeah, of course, we disagree. Of course, we're not all on the same page sometimes. And I think to almost go in with this idea of, of course, there's going to be disagreement, that's part of the growth, that's part of making great decisions, that's part of innovating as a team is to be coming from different perspectives, and not always agreeing with everything. So this idea of expecting the disagreement was something I thought, I think I'm going to take this away with me when I'm working with other people, just so I don't go in like super kind of excited about a new idea or you know, and then you feel like you're getting shut down by somebody else.

Ollie Collard: 52:27

I think it was really refreshing to hear. And I think you could assume that because of all of their similar backgrounds and expertise effects, they were friends, that their thinking could be a bit of an echo chamber. But I think it's great that they have this slight friction between them. Because ultimately, it's going to lead to better outcomes and better innovation, if you're having different viewpoints. And if you've got different takes on particular bits of research or business decisions, then it's actually healthy. As long as you come to a decision in a relatively quick timeframe.

Unknown: 53:00

Same thing that Ashley talked about, that I think we can all relate to, is the fact that time is finite. And we have to decide where we're going to put that time. And so he talked about family and business is taking priority right now. And we know from the other founders that we've talked to, that we work with, this is often the case and I really liked something he said, which was we people in a job, if they're at a certain point in life, if they've got a family, they don't have to be running their own business. They don't have to be in academia, they don't have to, you know, if you're, if you're working for a living, and you've got a family, the likelihood it is that's where a lot of your priorities are gonna go as well. So we often talk about the sacrifice that entrepreneurs make. But do you think most people are making similar sacrifices anyway?

Ollie Collard: 53:54

I think they built a nice culture where they are allowing people to put their their families first and be able to prioritise them. And I think that's really important. I think that actually having three of the co founders or having younger families is a definite benefit. And that has knock on effects in terms of their staffing and the morale and the way they treat people. I think naturally some industries that in terms of like, if there's really long shifts, or there's differing shifts, and you know, it can make family life very difficult. So I think it does really depend on industry and sectors and employers and businesses to actually enable people to put their families first.

Unknown: 54:36

Yeah, absolutely. And so I think it is this thing of like, not actually putting entrepreneurship on a pedestal and putting entrepreneurs on a pedestal as well and saying, like, oh, well, they're all they've got time for his family and and work when actually there's people out there who are employed who probably like you said, and may not even have that chance to be with their family all of the time. You just mentioned culture. You It made me think of another quantum computing company that I happen to be I wasn't working with them. I wasn't coaching at the time it was when I was in my last business. And we went and visited them out in Palo Alto. We were in their offices. And I remember their CEO coming in and saying to me, when do you think you have to start thinking about culture in your business? Most like, at the very beginning, and this company was already about five or six years in. So I don't know how that was going. But I think in this case, the culture is has been something that has really come from the founders, and their role modelling from the beginning, and particularly like I, again, I, I love that they were talking about this idea of we, we definitely want people to be able to have the flexibility to be able to have their family life will have outside interests, and we're going to role model those outside interests, and we're going to be at home for school pickup or for the bedtimes. We might do other meetings, but and that was the fact that they also said that they shouldn't necessarily want to leave at that time as well. So this idea of creating an environment that is a nice environment to be in that it's a happy place to work that you enjoy being around your colleagues. And at the same time, you have the space to live your life in a outside of work as well. Yeah,

Ollie Collard: 56:30

and I think it's allowing people to thrive in the right environment. I think if you're doing a job, and you've got that flexibility, there might be times where you're coming towards the end of a project and you're in a flow state, and you're, you know, might have spent 10 hours working on it late at night, as an example. But I think if you're getting the job done, then that is the main thing. And that's the culture that they're embedding and going back to the CEO of the company in Palo Alto, wow, where's this person's head been buried? That is incredible. I mean, you should have just gone back for a flip and response and said, oh, we'll just knock up a quick poster and put on your wall.

Unknown: 57:08

I'd love to answer the question about where this person said it's been buried. They weren't more polite than that. So quantum computing is a really big and complex topic. Maybe that's what this person was talking about. And I think throughout this episode, both the questions you were asking and the way Ashley was talking about, it was making it a lot more understandable. Let's have a listen now to hear more about what he thinks the biggest challenges are with quantum computing. So ultimately, the biggest challenge in quantum computing is that quantum computers are just very hard to build. So they are extremely delicate pieces of technology, they are prone to noise to errors, because of unwanted interactions with the environment. So it's just a massive effort to create these things. And anyone working in this area is just in a constant battle against nature to try to make this happen. And really, the entire goal of spacecraft as a company is to make the lives of the hardware manufacturers easier by just developing far more efficient quantum algorithms. So for us, I think this is the biggest challenge in quantum computing, and we're desperate to address it. And what's

Ollie Collard: 58:28

your vision? Like? What is the world that you want to be living in if you are successful?

Unknown: 58:34

So we want to live in a world where quantum computers are an indispensable tool in scientific and technological discovery. So we think that there'll be a future where these machines are actually used to make breakthrough discoveries in science in engineering on a regular basis, and also to solve some of the key computational challenges that are holding humanity back beyond this alone. And we think that the key thing in order to get to this stage is actually to develop the algorithms that will enable us to do that.

Ollie Collard: 59:12

Excellent. A key part of the show is essentially asking our featured founders to just try and distil down just one piece of advice that they would pass on to somebody either thinking of starting a business or somebody already running one. So what would your one piece of advice be?

Unknown: 59:34

So I would say that it's an incredibly exciting journey with lots of interesting challenges. I think my key piece of advice would probably be that it can also be a stressful journey with lots of things going on, some of which you don't necessarily have control over. And it's just important not to take To get too much to heart, I think and to try to relax, because many of the things that might seem very stressful and upsetting at any given moment, actually turn out not to be in the medium term in the longer term. And so it's important to realise that even if you are the CEO, maybe the founder or co founder of a company, then you are not responsible for absolutely everything that happens in in the world or even that's related to your, your startup. So all you can do is the best that you can. And often that is actually enough. And

Ollie Collard: 1:00:35

what strategies or tactics do you employ to kind of get away from the business and have that downtime?

Unknown: 1:00:42

Yeah, this is a tricky one. I think it's one which I'm I'm definitely not as good as I possibly could be. I think that firstly, just building a company culture where people actually realise that everyone does need some time away from from work is very important that people are not necessarily working 24/7. I mean, for me, as we've said, having family time is important. And in fact, when you're looking after small children, actually, it's kind of impossible to do work. So that makes life a little bit easier on that front. But I think as well, just just recognising that people work in different ways. And so, for example, for me, I, I appreciate actually sort of feeling like I'm generally up to date most of the time, because I, if I am away from things for a very long time, I tend to find that I worry about what's happening, which is completely unfounded. But just psychologically, I sort of prefer to feel like I'm connected to what's happening. Even if I know that, in fact, I don't necessarily need to deal with things straightaway.

Ollie Collard: 1:01:54

Where can people find out a bit more about face craft online and new personally.

Unknown: 1:01:59

So they can go to our website with face craft.io. There have also been a number of articles about us in the press recently, which I'm sure your listeners can find by searching on Google News. And anyone who is interested in the technology that we're developing, they could actually read one of our scientific papers, there are quite a number of them now. And they are all openly available. They're accessible via Google Scholar, you could search for me or for one of my co founders, or indeed several of the other people in our team. And you'll be able to find out a lot more information about our ideas about the algorithms that we've developed and what we're intending to use them for.

Ollie Collard: 1:02:44

Thank you so much for your time this afternoon, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show.

Unknown: 1:02:49

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it, it's been a lot of fun. I'm getting excited to go and read all of the phase craft scientific papers now. So it's been fun finding out about a business that is right at the forefront of novel technology. But at the end of the day, however complex the tech, it's still a human endeavour. So Ashley's advice is really important, which was Don't take too much to heart.

Ollie Collard: 1:03:19

Yeah, and it's definitely easier said than done. I think founders have to sometimes take a step back, it can seem all consuming. Sometimes when you're going day to day of running a business. I think if you're building in time, just do nothing. And it sounds stupid. But literally putting in 15 minutes, 20 minutes, not huge amounts of time where you can just sit and ruminate on problems or just issues or just think about things that are going on in your head, maybe get them out your head, put them on paper, and just get a bit of clarity back. I mean, unless you're doing something that involves things like brain surgery, you know, a lot of the decisions you make aren't going to be fatal. It's about not letting the business consume you. You run the business, the business doesn't renew.

Unknown: 1:04:07

I love that. I definitely could have learned that lesson in my first business. I wish I'd have had that lesson. Yeah, write things down, get them on paper, talk to the relevant people. You're not alone in your business, even if you are a solo founder. Talk to your community, talk to the people around you. And recognise that of course, don't beat yourself up for worrying either because you aren't going to do that. It's definitely something that's important to you if you're running a business and of course you're going to worry but you do need to be able to have that objectivity. Take that distance, and to keep yourself sustainable in this business to keep your mental health good, so that you can continue to make really good decisions. In the long run those things that have that are causing you stress is not necessarily going to make a lot of difference. So is it worth your energy right now?

Ollie Collard: 1:05:06

Yeah, completely. And I think there is a natural element of stress sometimes, which is a good stress. But if it's causing you severe anxiety, and worry, and moments of not feeling yourself, then that's going to have a massive knock on effect on the business. And if you're not looking after yourself, then the business is going to take a toll for the worst, unfortunately, along with your health. And I think there was a study recently that said, you know, entrepreneurs are five times more likely to have mental health problems and somebody who's not running a business, and I can see why. So

Unknown: 1:05:41

before we go, Ashley has a question for you. So go and listen to his question, and then head to our socials to answer it. Okay. So I guess this is a question which I'm just interested in benchmarking what your listeners feel about some different areas that are out there, because I know they're likely to be enthusiastic about many different aspects of scientific and technological progress. And I guess my question is, which area of scientific and technological progress are you most excited about at the moment? And I think you're looking for four options. So obviously, I'll go for quantum computing as the first one, then I'll go for artificial intelligence as the second one. I'll go for nuclear fusion as the third one, and then space exploration as the fourth. And I would just be really interested to hear what your listeners might think about the prospects of each of these different areas.

Ollie Collard: 1:06:37

What a great question. Actually, I'm gonna get some answers to that on socials for you. We're

Unknown: 1:06:43

currently recording some of our episodes in quite quick succession. So we don't currently have the answers from Andy from seriously low carb, who was our guest in the last episode. So listen in next time, and we'll make sure that we've got those answers for you, or head over to our socials and you'll be able to see how that poll is going. So Ali, who are we going to be listening to next time,

Ollie Collard: 1:07:09

we've got a great female founder from a company called Think rev up. So it's all about revenue and operations, a really exciting software company that are doing some great things for their customers.

Unknown: 1:07:21

I look forward to that. Well, thank you everyone for listening today. If you like what you've heard, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts. And don't forget there's a big selection of previous episodes just search founded and grounded on your favourite podcast player. Thank you for listening to find it and grounded with Ollie collard and Dr. Becky sage. Don't forget to press that follow button to help us to grow the show.