Rival: The man who gave Gary Vee the "jab, jab, jab, right hook"

The former MD of Gary Vee's Vayner Media left everything behind to pursue his dream, and the results will leave you inspired. 

Tune into a thought-provoking journey with Eric Fulwiler, the visionary co-founder behind the growth marketing consultancy Rival.

What was the tipping point that compelled him to take the plunge? In reality, there wasn't one...

Eric pulls back the glitzy entrepreneurial curtain and reveals the unfiltered realities of day-to-day startup life.

Key Takeaways

- Define Your Own Success Metrics: It’s not just about growth; in Eric's case, it's about building a business that is so strong that someone else would want to purchase it. Learn his philosophy: don't challenge the market; change it.

- Prepare for the Marathon: Entrepreneurship is a journey of endurance. Eric's advice? Build emotional and psychological resilience. It’s about ensuring the longevity of both your mental health and your business. Take care of yourself, your team, and truly understand your customers' needs.

- More Than Just Profit: Eric sees Rival, and business in general, as a vehicle for positive change. Aim for a social and environmental impact; embody the challenger brand mindset, and drive innovation that matters.

Have questions about this episode? Ask our hosts, chat now via our website

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

I think if you are currently running a business two things, one, figure out what you need to do for your mental health and prioritise that above all else. You're listening to founded and grounded with Ollie collard and Dr. Becky sage. The podcast brings you the honest realities of startup life. If you're a founder or aspiring entrepreneur, this is for you. We know running a business can be lonely and tough at times. And we want to help you get ahead with simple tips and sound advice. Every fortnight we hear inspiring stories from an early stage business owner, who's only a couple of steps ahead of you, talking about what they've learned. And as your hosts, we share our insights and experiences as founders. So you can apply this to your own business. Hello, I'm Dr. Becky sage. I'm co host of the angel ungraded podcast and I'm here with Ali. Hi, Ali. How are you today?

Ollie Collard: 1:17

Very well. Yeah, how are you doing?

Unknown: 1:20

I'm good. We're a few weeks into 2020 for now. So kind of starting off fresh new year. And I was just talking to you before we started recording, it's been quite a hectic one for me. I didn't take much time off over Christmas. And I kind of feel like I haven't done that. You know the kind of organising that you do when you have a break? Yeah. I've still got if anyone's watching this on a video, then you'll be able to see behind me that there's like piles of paper on my floor because it all needs sorting out. So yeah, it's but having said that I feel very energised for 2024 Quite grounded and feeling good about the things that are upcoming. So yeah, generally doing really well. I just need to have a weekend to sort everything out. How about you? Excellent.

Ollie Collard: 2:09

Yeah, no, on the same note, really very positive start to 2024. We've got some exciting news that founded and grounded is going to be expanding into new areas. Plus, we've got an awesome website that we've just launched, which is founded and grounded.com. So we're going to be sharing more on that in due course. And yeah, on a personal note, my word for the year is health. So that involves Yeah, better nutrition, more exercise. I've actually, for a couple of days a week base myself out of David Lloyd gym. So I'm at the gym working and then going for some exercise a run or a row at lunchtime. So I've got no excuse now. So yeah, feeling very positive.

Unknown: 2:52

Excellent. I have a friend who does the same thing. But I heard that David Lloyd has a very nice jacuzzi, too. So I'm not sure he always says workout soon.

Ollie Collard: 3:02

Well, there's some great benefits from Pewsey that saw very well for Yeah, for detoxing and your skin. So

Unknown: 3:10

keeping that body warm and these cold January days as well. Exactly. Okay, so let's let's turn our focus to this week's entrepreneur. Can you tell our listeners who were talking to you this week?

Ollie Collard: 3:24

Sure, can Becky so we got Eric who is the founder of rival, which is a growth marketing consultancy. Yeah.

Unknown: 3:32

And I really enjoyed listening to Eric's interview. For me, there was a lot of speaking the truth in this interview, I think that Eric is very, very keen to get the real stories of entrepreneurship out there, which, of course, aligns so well with what we're doing here at founded and grounded. It's not always easy, and we shouldn't just be painting these pictures of it being this glamorous lifestyle or a fast track to an easy track to money, because that's not really what it is.

Ollie Collard: 4:08

Exactly. I mean, he's a great advocate of the podcast. And I think, yeah, he really sums up the grounded nature of the show. And he definitely shoots from the hip in terms of speaking the truth. So I think our listeners are going to enjoy this one. And I

Unknown: 4:23

think his background is it's a lot of what's responsible for why he can talk like this. He's got a really fascinating background and it's set him up really well for where he is right now. So let's hear from Eric about his journey to becoming an entrepreneur.

Ollie Collard: 4:42

Alright, good afternoon, how you doing?

Unknown: 4:44

I'm good. Getting towards the end of the year. I'm actually flying back home to Boston in the US tomorrow night and we're recording this in mid December. So trying to wrap everything up and can't believe that 2023 is done. But looking forward to a bit of a break and getting Back at it for next year.

Ollie Collard: 5:01

Yeah, what was the personal highlight for you first 2023?

Unknown: 5:06

personal highlight for 2023. I mean, you know, I'm sure we're going to talk about this, my life is so wrapped up in work right now. So that's kind of where my mind goes show immediately. I mean, we're in year two of starting this business. So sometimes I'm just like, we're still here is a bit of a highlight, we did have some wins in terms of like clients that we brought on board, some great people that we brought on board and things like that. So I think that's one side of it. But I don't know another one for me, I took my daughter with me to Munich for the weekend, just like she and I have three daughters. And I'm trying to spend more time with like each of them one on one. So I put that up there as well trying to create like meaningful, long term memories. Amazing,

Ollie Collard: 5:50

Alex, what I love to hear. And I have to say it's the absolute pleasure to have you on the show as well. So thank you for taking time out your hectic diary to come along. Before we dive into rifle, I'm really interested in your background. So you've worked with some of the biggest brands in the world from billion dollar startups to Fortune 500 companies, specifically, one of your past roles was the former MD of VaynerMedia. reporting directly to Gary Vaynerchuk. For seven years. Can you distil down your career? And what was it like working for Gary, specifically? And what was the biggest thing that you learned from him?

Unknown: 6:29

distilling down my career? I think. So one, I think I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up to I've kind of fallen into everything that I do. You know, you talk some of these people, I'm sure you've had them on the podcast where they're like, Yep, I knew that I wanted to be this by age 50. Therefore, I did this when I was 25. And I'm just kind of like, Man, I went to music school. And then I realised that did not want to be a professional musician, I thought I wanted to get into government nonprofit, found that kind of frustrating. So I ended up kind of trying to get a job in business. And started@forbes.com, back in the day when the.com was kind of a separate thing from the magazine. So it was like the early days of web and web 2.0. And all that. And just ended up in this world, you know, the last 15 years of kind of digital marketing and Gary Vaynerchuk and advertising agencies, and now what we're doing at rival, but I guess if I had to distil it down the red thread for me, is one. I'm totally figuring it out as I go along. And I think if people were more honest, I think you'd hear that from a lot more people. My I don't know, I'm kind of taking it one step as I go. But too, I'm fascinated by people, and how people's perception and behaviour changes based on what they think. And that really is marketing for me, you know, spending so many years in advertising agencies, I never really feel like I fit into that world because, and I'll do, you know, all respect to them. Like a lot of those people, like love creating ads. And I'm like, I don't really give a, I don't know, if I can swear I don't give a shit about the heads I care about, like, is this gonna drive growth of the business? Like, that's the challenge that's compelling to me? And how do you get people to believe in something, you know, marketing, branding, like, something that literally is not there, the apple that's on your computer, that means something to me, that means something to you, I find that fascinating. When it comes to Gary, I mean, I don't know how long we're gonna record for, we definitely don't have enough time. The way I describe it is for people who know him, it is everything you would expect. It's hectic, it's intense, it's full on. And then it's a lot of things that you wouldn't, meaning he's by far the most brilliant business mind I've ever come across. He's also the most empathetic and caring person that I know. You know, we're still in touch. He's involved in what we're doing at rival. And so there's kind of a side of him that people see with all the content and like the real aggressive American entrepreneur. And then there's the human side. And I think that that was a big, he's, by far had the biggest impact of anyone on me professionally. And I like to think of my best days, it's kind of both of those fronts. It's the hard charging entrepreneur, business person. But at the end of the day, certainly one of the biggest things that I learned from him is like, that's just what we do for work. You know, life is so much bigger relationships are so much bigger. It's all about the people and how you make them feel at the end of the day,

Ollie Collard: 9:30

in terms of starting rivals. So a marketing innovation consultancy started two years ago. What really drove you to working with some of the biggest brands to starting your own agency, was there a tipping point?

Unknown: 9:44

So it's funny you hear these kind of origin stories from founders where they're like, I just had this relentless drive to put a dent in the universe or whatever it is. I don't know if this is right or wrong for For me, it was I couldn't find another cmo job that I wanted. You know, CMO of FinTech business called 11, Fs, I knew I didn't want to go back to an agency job. So there was that I was really kind of ready to leave where I was. So like, didn't want to stay another year, or whatever, until I could find something. And then, I guess, having worked so many years in startups, you know, pretty early stage, but never having started one myself. I kind of wanted to see if I could do it. So it is certainly not, you know, you're gonna start a company, at least not the way that I'm doing it. For work life balance, you definitely don't do it for the money. And I guess for me, it was you always think about that, quote, If you've heard it, there's like an inside joke with the people that climb Mount Everest, like I haven't done it. But this is what I hear where they're like, like, why would you put yourself through this? You know, the strain, the stress, the cost, the danger of like, why? And they say, because it's there. And that, for me, for better or probably for worse, a lot of things in my life are like my want to go climb that mountain just to see if I can. So yeah, those were kind of a combination of what led me to start rival. But I think if you play my career route 100 times, you know, I know there's a lot of, there's a lot of conversate, Gary certainly pushed this conversation of like, you're either a thoroughbred entrepreneur, pure entrepreneur, or you're not, you either could only ever work for yourself, or you're just kind of moonlighting are kind of like temporarily be I don't believe that. I think that the scenario is aligned for me to start a company, who knows if it's going to work out, who knows if it's going to be the right or the wrong thing. But I'm learning a lot. I scratched that itch and got it out of my system. I don't know if however, this goes I would start a second company. But that's my story, at least. And I actually think that with more and more entrepreneurs, and maybe some of the people listening, I think oftentimes this idea of entrepreneur, capital II, you know, think of any of the any of the top 1% examples that you want Gary being in there as well, I think, for the most part, entrepreneurs are people that are just trying to make it work, just trying to start a business and kind of figure it out. You know, my wife started a business this year as well, she takes a very different approach than I do. But I think there needs to be a broader conversation around what it means to be an entrepreneur and why people become entrepreneurs and founders as well.

Ollie Collard: 12:31

I love that honest response, Eric, and I feel like it probably was a bit of a natural progression from everything that you've achieved in your career, and like you say, this itch that you wanted to scratch. So actually, it's not so black and white. It's this natural progression of all of this experience that you're now going to monetize into starting your own agency. So I really liked that origin story, and hopefully will inspire other people listening to maybe take that leap of faith arrival, your headline and your ethos is don't challenge the market. Change it. What's the difference between a challenger and incumbent brand? And tell me about your brand? Oh, s methodology.

Unknown: 13:11

So with rival so yeah, we set up the business two years ago, it's myself and two co founders who were part of the leadership team with me at Vayner. We're about 20 people now mostly London, New York based couple of people in Europe, including our head of product. And we are a marketing strategy and technology firm focused on challenger brands. So most of the work we do and almost all the revenue right now is kind of project based strategic engagements around branded product positioning, go to market customer data martec customer acquisition capability building within the marketing function, sometimes I say it's like a very mini McKinsey for CMOS, right. But we also did raise a small round of funding to build out a product and tech division as well. And so the idea there is how can we build technology that strengthens and differentiates our services and potentially maybe build some type of martech SAS thing as well. So that's the business model, I guess. But I'm a big believer in having a clear vision and a why, for the company. And the why for us for rival is over the life span of however long we're in business, the consulting engagements we do the technology that we build the content, you know, a lot of the content that we put out about challenger brands. It's trying to understand what drives the growth of successful challenger brands. Because and this is the reason that our kind of slogan is don't challenge the market change it. So many businesses call themselves challenger brands. And actually, in effect, there are so many companies that are trying to disrupt the status quo of how categories operate, so few of them actually succeed. What is it about the few that do now the products that they build have a huge role in that and even as a marketer, I'm always the first to say the best marketing is a great product, but to build long term, sustained success and fulfil the potential of your business you need great product and you need great marketing. And that's kind of what we focus on. So for us that idea of challenging the market, not changing it, and who we study, document with the content that we do work with, from a consulting perspective, is either challengers that are trying to disrupt the category or change them, which typically means like startups or growth stage startups and help them scale, or it's incumbents that have been around for a while that need to innovate. One of the other quotes that I like is growth in a category is a race between the challengers trying to get scale and the incumbents trying to get innovation. Because basically, if you're an incumbent, you almost need to be constantly putting yourself out of business before somebody else does. If you're only focused on and this is how I would define what it means to be a quote challenger. It really, you know, the connotation is always startup fast moving, risk taking, etc, it doesn't really have to do with the size of company or the stage of company, it has to do with the mindset and model that they take to growth. You know, Amazon, and the whole day one thinking from Jeff Bezos, they're constantly trying to put themselves out of business before somebody else does. So you can be a challenger, when you're the scale of an Amazon. But of course, for the most part, challengers tend to be smaller startups because they have less to lose, in trying to change how things are done, they're more willing to take risk. And they don't have the legacy of hey, our business model that was built 50 years ago, heck, even five years ago, with how much the world has changed since then. They're not tied to how things were done. They can think and this is why our podcast, our CMO podcast that I host is called Scratch, they can think from scratch for the world of today, and make sure that they are as close to and able to deliver on the needs that exist in the market as anybody else. Love that. I

Ollie Collard: 16:54

reckon that leads nicely on to my next question was about your podcast actually called Scratch, which is focused on the brains behind challenger brands. I listened to the episode with Tom Rainsford, the marketing director of beaver town brewery, which was a fantastic episode. Got lots from it personally, how does your podcast feed into your business strategy.

Unknown: 17:15

So I believe that modern marketing, particularly for b2b is about building a media company around what you stand for. So my previous role as CMO of this company from 11, Fs, you know, I got brought in, they were a venture builder type of business. So basically, they'd come in and if Lloyds Bank wanted to build their version of Munzo, we would do that. So kind of consulting, but we also built some product as well. But what I did when I first got there is actually split the marketing department into a marketing function that did the things that you would expect, you know, they manage the website, they generated leads, they plugged into the sales team, etc. But then I hired somebody who did not come from FinTech did not come from marketing background and came from a media background. And I said, your job is to build a media company around this brand, for the audience that we're trying to reach, which for 11 Fs was financial service professionals. So with rival that's how we think about it, there are marketing jobs to be done, how do we drive leads for our business, etc. But actually, modern marketing to me, is about trying to think and act more like a media company than a traditional marketer. And the biggest distinction there is where you place your focus in terms of the value exchange with the audience you're trying to reach. If you're a marketer, obviously, I'm generalising but you're about extracting value, how do I get somebody to do this for me so that I can get something out of them? If you aren't, I mentioned you, I spent that time in the media world that Forbes, a media companies business model is about putting out content, events, experiences that are so valuable that people want to spend time with them, and then you monetize that attention. And so it's a it's a slight shift, that opens up a completely different perspective with how you think about it, because instead of saying, What do I need to deliver for my business, right now, you say, what would my audience want to hear from me. And the idea there, because the only reason you do any marketing is ultimately to drive growth of your business, is that over the long term, if you can build the successful media company model, then it brings the audience to you, and also builds a bit of a moat around your brand. Because particularly in the b2b context, you know, I forget the exact stat, but they say 76% of stats are made up on the spot anyway, the vast majority of potential buyers for your services, especially if you're selling enterprise, are not looking to buy what you're selling at the time that you're trying to sell it. So if you're only going to mark it with a sales message. It's not going to be relevant. But if you go to market with a hey, I think you would be interested in this podcast and this white paper in this cmo dinner that we're doing, then what you're asking for is just some of their time and attention to start a relationship. And if you can add value in that relationship, then you'll at least have the awareness, if not the consideration and the equity when that potential buyer becomes an actual buyer for what you do,

Ollie Collard: 20:10

or we just want to pick up on something you said earlier about, obviously, being from Boston, and I know you spent time in New York as well. Why does the UK lag behind the US? And what edge is being American given you living here in the UK? Who?

Unknown: 20:28

It's interesting. I think that, you know, I'm one guy in one industry, I'm not sure if there's like a macro economic advantage or disadvantage that I've had personally, but I think, you know, my perspective on it, and particularly coming over 10 years ago, to open a digital advertising agency AMEA HQ, what I found and kind of how we thought about it was that at least from a digital marketing perspective, because a lot of that gets pushed back then at least from San Francisco, from New York, that maybe the US was about six months, ahead of where the UK was for digital. And I think that's probably about right. I mean, to be honest with you, when I knew I wanted to leave the ad agency world, part of my thought process and how I ended up at 11. FS was like, Hey, that was a bit of an advantage. But where's the advantage of where the UK is ahead of the US? And I would argue it's fintech. Maybe that maybe they're starting to catch up a little bit. But, you know, it's kind of why I identified FinTech and financial services as an industry to get into going next, I think, you know, being American, I don't know. I mean, there's still an always, even after 10 years, and two of my three kids that have been born here and to the utter delight and entertain of my wife, and I just, like start straight up British. And we love it, because my wife is also from Boston, with me. I don't know, I mean, I think when it comes to kind of doing businesses and building professional lives in different countries, you have to kind of understand the cultural context of where you are. But you also can't try to be somebody that you're not, you know, I put a post post post out on LinkedIn yesterday about like, why can't we make 15 minute meetings? The default? I'm happy to do a 30 minute meeting a 60 minute meeting, but like, why can't it be 15 but I know that in this part of the world, that's gonna kind of be seen as like a snob or something like that. I remember even when we were interviewing a lot of people at Vayner. And the first round interview would be 30 minutes, I got some feedback from people that are like, well, it's kind of disrespectful, because really, it should be an hour. So maybe it's American. Maybe it's spending a lot of time in New York, maybe it's spending too much time with Gary, who literally would schedule a five minute meetings with people. But I think I do have, you know, you can't use stereotypes to generalise everyone, but there's typically a reason that they exist. And so maybe I have a little bit more of the American New Yorker. Let's get down to business. Great. That's done. Let's move on to the next thing. Remember a fader we had a head of delivery at one point he was French, and again can use stereotypes, generalise everyone. But he was like, well, it's Friday at three o'clock. Why are we going to the pub? How am I cuz it's Friday at three o'clock. But anyway, love having he definitely helped me understand a little bit more of the work and culture over here. Love that.

Ollie Collard: 23:16

Moving on, Eric, you're B Corp isn't a wonderful accreditation to have. And it means a lot to a lot of people. But let's rip that label off. What does doing good business really mean to you?

Unknown: 23:32

Hmm, it's a great question. I think the place to start is, you know, I mentioned that part of why I started rival was I couldn't find another cmo job that I wanted. And actually, as I was thinking about leaving 11 Fs, and I was like, if I could wake up tomorrow and have the perfect job, it would have been some type of marketing job in a clean tech or green tech business. Because I think the dream for all of us is to do well, while also doing good. And for me, and like, I'm not shattering any minds by saying this. But climate change is the biggest challenge that is presented to and kind of incumbent on our generation, I believe, to try to fix. So unfortunately, particularly at this stage, there's what you can do. And there's also who you know, and I just didn't have enough of a network in that space to be able to find the right opportunity and also wasn't patient enough to kind of wait it out at the job that I was at. So I ended up doing this, that's totally fine. But that was part of it is like, to the extent that we can, as a marketing consultancy, you know, it's like we're not exactly changing the world over here or saving lives day in and day out. But to the extent that we can, how can we make sure that we do our part? You know, when I think about my kids, I want to be able to tell them that like? Yeah, you know, I wasn't Secretary General of the United Nations, but like I did, what I could write while still being practical about having to provide for them and make money and all that stuff. So the B Corp is a clear and obvious way to kind of signal that to the rest of the world. And there is an element of this of like, I've actually been very surprised how little that has seemed to matter to clients. But to talent, for sure. So there is that element of it. But I think it's you know, we talk about with rival wanting to also challenge the way that our industry operates marketing agencies, consultancies, etc. And so even though we're tiny, we're 20 people, I think we can do our part to say like, Hey, you can be a marketing business and be a public benefit corporation. In the US instead of an inc. You can be a B Corp, we're part of 1% for the planet, we donate 1% of our revenue to environmental nonprofits. Yeah, it's 1% of a pretty small but like, we're kind of doing our part. So I think that's what it would be for me is like, to the extent that you're able just do what you can, and I think a little bit if everybody does, it adds up to a lot

Ollie Collard: 26:01

of thyroids may have a great quote as well, which is a Danish proverb, which is, bake with the flour that you have word

Unknown: 26:11

about our sponsors. The security threat to UK tech startups is growing. Protecting your innovation is crucial to your business success. Secure innovation is here to help, and it only takes a few simple steps to get started. Don't leave it too late. Visit npsa.gov.uk forward slash innovation. To find out more, and download the quickstart guide for free today. Are you looking to access finance for your business, but unsure where to go and who to trust? Introducing hexar finance, providing growth funding to startups and scale ups throughout the UK, Ben and stews started extra finance with a clear mission to make finance more accessible to business owners like you. Launched in 2020. They know firsthand the growing pains you're facing their fast growth business is the proud winner of the startup of the Year Award, and has recently been recognised for its economic contribution. So if you need funding now, or it's on your horizon, the experienced team at hexar finance are here to help to access your free consultation, simply go to exit finance.co.uk forward slash contact. Bake with the flower that you have Ali, you're you're getting profound in this interview, maybe maybe Eric bring brings that out of you.

Ollie Collard: 27:39

I do try sometimes

Unknown: 27:41

not saying you're not always provide. It's very real, though, isn't it? I love this idea that we can all make a difference. And we have varying resources. So using what we have to be able to make that difference that we want to make is really important. Given Eric's clear articulation of how important it is to make an impact. It was really interesting to hear that that wasn't actually why he became an entrepreneur. And he said that, we need to talk more about why people become entrepreneurs. So let's do it. Let's talk about why people go through this process. And as he talks about, you know, it's not something that you necessarily do just because you want to make money, because actually, that's not what you're gonna do, especially not in in the early days. So what's your experience in terms of why people become entrepreneurs? And you know, why you've done the entrepreneurial activities that you've done? It's

Ollie Collard: 28:45

a really interesting question, isn't it, Becky, and I think it comes back down to a lot of different influencing factors, I'd say that your attitude to risk is one, your personality type is another. I mean, if I had to categorise entrepreneurs, we've got people who have got that itch that they want to scratch, like Eric, and we've got these people who've got that really big vision and see this global problem, and they've got this solution to it. So I think that's another category of a type of entrepreneur. And then you've also got the accidental entrepreneurs, as I call them. So people who've kind of stumbled into the world of entrepreneurship, which I think is yeah, quite a lot of entrepreneurs as well. And then lastly, I'd say like, there's a group of people who are kind of a bit more analytical. So they look at trends, they look at the market, and they kind of they spot opportunities, so they're a bit more kind of decisive in terms of their route to market and why they're going into the world of business. So I'm going to throw back the question to you first, Becky, so tell us why you went into entrepreneurship. And I feel

Unknown: 29:53

like Eric has given me permission to be really honest about this. Because I think first of all, I would Say, there's many different factors that play into it. I don't actually think it's any one of those things, I think it's all of those things. And the reality is that when I first went into my first business, came together with co founders, and I was freelancing at the time. So it was, in fact, just another opportunity to be like, how do I generate revenue in a way that is like, that allows me to have some freedom and allows me to, like, do something that that feels, you know, exciting to me. And we were able to I was doing it alongside other things. And so it was a case of, well, that's another place where I can pay my bills. And so we don't do it for money. I wasn't doing it, because I was like, oh, that's gonna make me super rich. But it was a case of, oh, okay, I'm gonna write this grant funding proposal. And if that comes in, I have a job. And so that's actually the true reality of what happened. And then that, you know, initially, it was sort of a project and but a project, which did have the kind of commercial plan in mind. And that evolved over time. So that was there. And then the, the thing that gets me now and has has done, since like, really being in the first business, and then coming out of that, is, this is related to what Eric was saying about the itch that you want to scratch. There's part of me that's got something to prove. And I feel like I really am interested in what does it take to make impactful business, a sustainable business, a business where you can have kind of multiple bottom lines? So I'm really interested in how do I build a business that is, like financially sustainable, it does have a commercial aspect to it. But how do you also make an impact? How do you also show Compassionate Leadership as you're doing that and build a culture and a team that works really well. So I kind of have all of these, I kind of want to really do that in a way that is, is successful. And some people say, Well, I've done that in little ways that are successful before. But I think again, the itch you want to scratch, there's like something more that I want to achieve and prove through doing business. So that's, yeah, that's, that's my kind of. So that's not too much warts and all is it, but it's the reality I think of my story.

Ollie Collard: 32:40

Yeah, no, I like that back here. Thanks for sharing, I guess. So a lot of it is kind of circumstantial, at the time in your journey.

Unknown: 32:46

Yeah, definitely that first time, which is, which was the proper gateway into entrepreneurship. But I'd worked for a couple of other startups before that, too. So that was part of the circumstances was, Oh, I've got this experience now. And I understand how startups work. And that that's an opportunity.

Ollie Collard: 33:04

And now you want to make this bigger dent in the world. So to say,

Unknown: 33:07

Yeah, excellent. So talking of kind of making dents in the world, I'm so fascinated by Eric's motto around, don't challenge the market, change it. And this is something that I think a lot of founders want to do, when they first go into business, there's a lot of, it's not being done well, right. Now, we're going to do it differently, we're going to disrupt, and then as soon as you start writing your business plan, and you start getting asked about who your customers are, where your money's gonna come from, you have to do a deck, if you're going to do investment, that kind of thing. All of a sudden, you have to start fitting your pieces of the puzzle into the pre existing pieces of the puzzle, and show, well, we've got, we've got customers, and those customers are often the traditional players within a market. So this whole piece about kind of really going for it in terms of actually changing the market is something that I'm interested to continue to explore further. Why is it? Oh, do you think that it's something that startups are doing effectively? Or do you think many just fall back into this place of, you know, we ended up being traditional and fitting into the pre existing system, because we sort of have to,

Ollie Collard: 34:33

I think most startups do have an aspiration to really change the market. But I think in reality, a lot of them don't I think where a lot of startups go wrong, is they're not being bold enough. Like if you want to create your own category, and completely change the market and turn it on its head, then you have to be very, very bold, in terms of your message in terms of your marketing, in terms of being disruptive. In terms of the actual product or service you're actually bringing to market. And we've seen it with past guests like heights, flow, neuroscience, and Yotes. So do rewind back to those episodes if you're really interested in how to create your own category and really change the market. But I think a lot of startups unfortunately, probably don't have the right execution. If I'm being honest, and I think it's a very hard skill to, to implement,

Unknown: 35:30

I completely agree. And, though you use the word bold, and I think you use this when you were interviewing Eric, as well, and that was the word that kept coming out for me. And it was inspiring me. So I was thinking about this, because this module of kind of building a media company around your startup is, is sort of the aspiration I've always had, I've been talking about issues, I want to scratch like this. And we would maybe use different language around it, we might talk about a thought leadership kind of campaigns, which, again, it's like the slightly less bold version of doing this. Some people might even just talk about PR, or we talk about market education. So there's kind of all these different language, but I think the boldness is to be like, we're building a media company around the startup. And again, I find it really inspiring listening to Eric, because I was like, hmm, I'm, I'm going to be more bold this time around. And I haven't disclosed this on the podcast yet. But I'm getting involved with a new startup at the moment. And I will announce that a little bit further down the road. But yeah, I'm very excited about it. And this, this fit around kind of building the media company around the startup. It made me think like, the mistake last time wasn't to have that approach. It was to not go fully into that approach. And so I think that this is definitely yeah, if Eric is listening back to this podcast, then I felt very inspired by listening to that story. And just thinking, Yeah, we got to take it a step further, if this is genuinely what you want to do, and you can see a way forward, you can build out that plan, then Be bold, take those bold move, takes guts you're going to have there's probably going to need to be money behind it. You need to build your reputation. But who says you can't do that? What

Ollie Collard: 37:27

an inspiring message. And Becky to answer your question, I was always curious about business from a young age. And I just knew that I wanted to set up a business. I was actually born in India, where my mum co founded a Fairtrade clothing company in the 80s. So where I grew up in a retail shop on Gloucester Road in Bristol, spending lots of weekends and time off the school there, learning about the world of business and asking about business terms, and why customers buy things. And also what impacts business can have two people in both communities. So yeah, that's the reason why I went into business very inspired by what my mum did, and seeing what impact businesses can have kind of a global scale as well. So I read a quote you said, 99%, of being an entrepreneur is about grinding, stressing, failing and learning. So can you talk to me about the unglamorous side of being a founder, in terms of your day to day,

Unknown: 38:31

I told you, when you reached out like this was not going to be a problem for me, because this is probably the thing that I'm most passionate about. Having worked in startups, you know, most of my career, and now being a founder, it is such a different thing. And to me, I guess a couple things. One, there is the cash flow payrolls on you all that there's the time that goes into it. But I think the bigger thing for me, you know, there's always a debate of like, is it better to kind of start a business when you're young? And you don't really have that many kind of commitments or restrictions or whatever? Or is it better to do it when you have a few grey hairs like I do? More experience? But of course, it's a little bit harder. And yeah, with three kids and a wife was a business and a mortgage and all that stuff. It's certainly difficult. But I think the other aspect of it for me is, I am, you know, my oldest daughter is 12. Her growing up in a world where she's had a phone since she was 10. She can't have social media on it. But let's be honest, like social media versus the internet, like it's all the same pressures on a preteen, especially girl. And I'm fascinated by what I call the Instagram ification of LinkedIn. LinkedIn has pulled off an amazing strategic move five years ago, 99% of the revenue was from recruiters and now they're a legitimate content platform, especially with Twitter completely shooting themselves in the foot now And so the same tendencies back to what I said about being fascinated by human perception and behaviour change, the same tendencies that play on on Instagram, where everybody only wants to post the most beautiful picture that maybe they even filter it out a little bit or like the best moments that that you only post when you're doing something cool and fun. And same thing on LinkedIn, most of it is I'm starting a new job, I won this award, super humbled to be listed, very excited that we just won this client, whatever. But much like the downside, and the second degree consequences of social media that we are now coming to terms with in our society, and particularly our youth, I think there's the same thing on LinkedIn, in business, which is, that's not what the reality is really like, for most people most of the time. And so again, to what I was saying about, you know, just do what you can, even if it's a little bit, that's what I'm trying to do. You know, it's like, sure I shout about the new clients that we went and all that stuff. But I also say things like, you know, what, 99% of the time, it is just me sitting there, at my desk at home, grinding and trying to figure it out, and knowing that I'm making so many frickin mistakes as I do it. And I guess that's not necessarily too self deprecating, it's more to be honest, try to change the conversation a little bit. And also just let people know, because the problem going back to my daughter, and Instagram, and the same thing of what's happening on LinkedIn is if you're an entrepreneur, and you just see feed after feed of everybody winning and crushing, and whatever, you're like, shit, what am I doing wrong? I'm not good enough. And I just want people to know, at least for me, it is fucking hard. Like, it is so hard. And that's okay. I think that's a feature not and I should have prefaced all this by saying, This is my experience. Maybe it's not hard for other people. Maybe for other people, it is, you know, easy, and they have figured it out. I would wager most people are closer to my end of the spectrum than that end of the spectrum. But that's been my experience. And I think a little bit of what I can do, as I'm on this journey, is share the honest, hard realities of what it's been like for me. And, you know, just seeing kind of how people engage with that content that I put out compared to the marketing content that I put out. I think that it is a story and a voice that needs to get shared more.

Ollie Collard: 42:32

I love it. I can, I can say that, you know, the 70 Plus founders that have been on this show would definitely agree that it's definitely hard works. Yeah. I'm interested now a bit about your personal life. You've obviously mentioned having three girls and your wife now going into business as well. We often talk to founders on the show, and they say how supportive their partners are, when they're busy running the business and sometimes putting unsociable hours and trying to get that balance between family life and startup life. So I'm interested to know how do you support your wife with her venture? And how does she do vice versa?

Unknown: 43:11

We are totally figuring it out as we go along. And I think one of the things that's hardest is feeling, at least for me, like, I'm never winning at everything. You know, there's really kind of three pillars to my life right now. There's my family. So my wife, my three kids, my extended family, etc. There's my work with rival and then the other one is is fitness. So competitive athlete and all that. And I can never win at all of them. Some weeks, one of them will be better than the other. But it is. It's just a matter of how much you're losing, as opposed to winning. And I think that's okay, I think me at this stage of my life, I'm about how can I try to fit it all in knowing that I never will. But I would rather shoot for the stars land on the moon, strive for success, whatever other cliche, you kind of want to throw in there. So I think absolutely, there's no way that I could have done what I've done so far without the support of my wife and family. Because let's be honest, even as much as I try to compartmentalise and prioritise. And like I'm leaving here to go back up home so that I can go to my kids concert, and then I have to come back down for another meeting like you try. But there's only so many hours in a day. And if you're an entrepreneur trying to build a meaningful business like I am, it takes up a lot of time. So what we did is my wife was very supportive of me doing this. She was like, I know you need to get this out of your system. And so what we said actually was, you know, there's so many reasons why it might not work. But I know the one that's easiest for me to control is how much time and effort I put into it. So for the first two years, because two years is a long time, but it's also not a long time. I'm going to give it everything. Saturday was a workday by default. Anytime I have an opportunity to hop on a plane Lean, go see a client be at a conference, I would take it. So the priority for the first two years would be how do i maximise the potential for rival to be successful. And then, you know, we just passed the two year mark. And so now I'm downshifting. There's still the demands of the business, it could take eight days a week of me, if I had that to offer, you just gotta cut it off somewhere. And you gotta say no, sometimes. So Saturday is work by exception, as opposed to rule. Now I'm only travelling if I'm on stage, or kind of, there's revenue tied to it. So getting paid to be there with the client, and you just kind of reprioritize you know, I take my kids to school, maybe three or four days a week when I can, and you shuffle things around. So my wife for a lot of that extra responsibility in those first two years, still does now. And I try to, to the extent that I can support her with her business getting off the ground now as well. But man, two startups under one roof, and three kids, one of them 12 going on, like frickin 18. It is sometimes you feel like you're losing more days than you're winning. But like I said, we're figuring it out as we go along.

Ollie Collard: 46:08

Excellent. And a quick plug for your wife's business, Eric. So

Unknown: 46:12

super funny. She's amazing. She has a law degree, she actually worked in marketing at a legal tech startup, when we were in the US. She's done a bunch of different things. When we had our two younger kids, she took a break from working outside the home. And the conversation was always Hey, when our youngest goes back to school, she'll figure out what she wants to do. And so as that started to happen, as we started to get closer to that milestone, she was like, I don't know, I think maybe I want to be a therapist, I just I don't know how to figure this out. And we bought a house a little bit more than two years ago, and she started an Instagram account about the renovation. And it now has, like 60,000 followers. So she's done a little bit of the influencer thing. Like she did a partnership with John Lewis. And for Dan and Bowden, the fashion company was in our house doing a photo shoot recently. But actually, because of that, a lot of people reached out and said, Will you help me with my interior design? So now she has an interior design business, and it's so interesting, tying it back to our conversation about being an entrepreneur, man for rival, I took six months of planning everything getting the strategy, right, the business plan, the cash flow, forecasts all that. And she's just like, No, I'm gonna start taking pictures of this. And we'll see how it goes. And arguably, she's so much more successful. Like she's got, she got written up to the Wall Street Journal, and she's been at home and garden. And I'm just like, Man, I could not buy that PR for my business.

Ollie Collard: 47:40

I'm sure she's learned the finger to a few articles, I'm sure. Excellent, and gun to your head. You have to pick only two of those three buckets you mentioned, which you pick,

Unknown: 47:53

family and work, I guess. Or if

Ollie Collard: 47:57

I'm interested to know about one of your favourite failures with rival? What was the lesson that you took from it?

Unknown: 48:05

I think a practical one that maybe it's easy for people to action is I spent way too long in the beginning, overthinking and over building things. So for example, spent so long, trying to write and design our first creds deck. And what I realised through that through a lot of the other things I spend time on the early days is like, the only thing that matters is, you know, if it was a product business, use a product market fit. But really, it's like getting clients on board and starting to service them. So I think I spent too much time planning and not enough time doing and you just gotta get to the frontlines. Talk to your customers start getting some customers on board. And then you do need a certain amount of planning, of course, but I think it's easy to over engineer in the early stages. You know, one of the biggest failings for me for sure. And I don't know how relevant this is for people. So I'll keep it short. You know, the plan from the very beginning with rival is start with services, consulting that advertising, right, like higher value, higher call point, etc. Build the mini McKinsey for CMOS. As we grow, then product becomes kind of the scale bull part and higher valuation and all that stuff. And even even spending three years in a product business. I just I've made so many mistakes about how we try to find product market fit how we define the audience that we're going after how we market and sell product versus services, because I've been in services for most of my career. And so I think the learning there for me, is you have to be a lot more humble with what you don't know and recognise that particularly in a market like this when it's Uber competitive. Just trying to figure it out. If it's not something you've done before is probably not going to set you up for success.

Ollie Collard: 49:51

Excellent. And I'm interested to know a bit more about the business model, as you said obviously, about the tech product, SAS based business and obviously the traditional console thing as well, alongside that, what's the current split in revenue? If you're able to share that in percentage terms? And where do you want it to go over the next two to three years. So

Unknown: 50:10

the current split is 95%, consulting, revenue, probably 2% product and then 3%, to everything I was saying about building a media company around what you stand for, we actually monetize that as well. So we do some sponsorship for some of our content, some of our events, but it's very, very small. And this was one of the biggest mistakes that I made was under estimating how difficult it would be to build a SaaS product. Because we raised a very small round of funding, like kind of not really friends and family, but angel investors. And man in the, especially with the market where it is right now, that was like having a toothpick in a nuclear arms race, like, might as well have just like, let the money on fire trying to build martech with that budget, right, and that roadmap. So that was a huge mistake on me as CEO. What we've done now, and like, you know, we're figuring it out. But the pivot is instead of start with services, and then springboard into martec, SAS product, it's how do we build technology that differentiates and strengthens our service offering, so it becomes tech enabled services. And that is that, you know, I should have figured out that that should have been the strategy from day one. And at some point, maybe down the road, maybe we do build kind of SAS, but that's the approach that we're taking right now.

Ollie Collard: 51:30

Lovato rather than these separate products and services, it's essentially a blended hybrid model between the two. Yes,

Unknown: 51:36

and sorry, I forgot the last part of your question. You know, we've talked about and to my thing about over engineering and planning everything, you know, with rival, we've got a five to seven year kind of plan of what we want to do, we want to build a scale boutique. So call that 50 people, there's obviously revenue and profit targets that we have against that, but we want to have at least 30% of our revenue be product. So we're obviously scaling that it's still very small. But that's where we want to get it to. So initially, we were like, can we become 51% product so that we're a tech business. But again, with the shift to tech enabled services, as opposed to services, and then tech, it changes the equation slightly.

Ollie Collard: 52:15

Thank you for that Eric, business can be all consuming. And you've made connotations, to you know, what it's been like, in your first two years of running the business? What's one sacrifice that you've made either consciously or subconsciously,

Unknown: 52:32

certainly the time with my family, you never get that back. And I know, the sacrifice I'm making going into that. And this is something that, you know, my wife and I and my family have decided to do, who knows if it's gonna end up being right or wrong. I think the one you know, if I'm being really honest, you know, I said, I've got family, I've got work, and I've got my fitness, the bucket that is obvious and not there as friends. And with who I am, I'm more of an introvert. I'm very kind of competitive and focused on like, you know, certain ranking, I want to get my sport, there's obviously a certain level that I want to get my business to. But kind of friends and social life is not there. Right now. Like, of course, I have friends and we see people, but it's not I don't define it as like one of the four buckets in my life right now. And I know that that is I want to say wrong. I know that that is a sacrifice that I'm making. Because you look at everything about what true happiness is and where it comes from. It it will save you all the reading, it is quality and quantity of relationships. Why that's it? It's not, did you build this business and exit it? Did you rank that in your professional, it's quality and quality of relationships. So I'm making that sacrifice, I want to come back to that. But something had to give families obviously not gonna give fitness for me is like the physical but much more the mental Foundation, like I'm probably too dependent on it. But if I don't have that there, I get a lot more unstable. And Rocky when it comes to my mental health. So I couldn't give that up. So it's got to be that for now. I'm always intrigued to hear the answers to the questions about what people feel like they're sacrificing when they're working on their business. And sometimes I wonder if what people perceive to be a sacrifice is actually a sacrifice at all. In the sense that, I mean, we're always sacrificing something, right? And there's many, many things in the world we could be doing but we're not doing and actually when I listened to many of the entrepreneurs that we talked to, I'm sure I'm sure they you know, definitely would love to be spending more time with with family or or with Friends, but I think the meaning that the work carries and the impact they can have with the work. And actually the connection you can make with other people through doing the work is incredibly powerful. And this is something that I definitely have experienced, it's the, my best relationships have come through my work. And so there's this kind of interplay between the passion that you have for something, the purpose that is behind it, and how that connects you to other people. So I definitely would kind of always rather be working one way or another than than socialising. I think, for example, Ali like we would have probably never connected if we weren't doing this. And it's so nice to be able to kind of, we get to sit down and talk and get to know each other and, and share certain passions through doing this. And something that I felt very seen in this particular episode, because I have been banging a very quiet drum about how for how much I get comparison itis on LinkedIn. But I've never found that on other platforms like Instagram. And I wonder if that's because my work is so important to me, that I feel like that's where I'm seeing everybody else's highlight reels. And that's the part where I'm often feeling like, I don't know how to position myself on this platform, I don't know how to how to sound as expert as everybody else sounds and is confident and to have all these kinds of wins that they've got going on. And so when Eric said about, about LinkedIn, and the kind of the challenges of this platform, and the fact that yes, this is very much everyone's highlights, highlight reel. And I think in some ways, even more so than the other platforms, because that's our professional environment. We don't want to show warts and all in an environment where you might be talking to future employers or collaborators or customers that, you know, you might be worried about showing certain aspects of who you are. And when we're, when we've got that kind of fear, or when we feel like we have to put up walls, it actually means that it's much harder to connect. So whilst LinkedIn is this platform, which has such a wealth of Well, certainly network, can we really, you know, how do we really connect on this platform? Have you got any thoughts or tips on how to do that?

Ollie Collard: 57:30

Yeah, it's a really interesting point, isn't it? And I think for me, LinkedIn is my favourite platform. Personally, I've built up, you know, 8000 connections on there. But let me be very clear, but it's a complete vanity metric. What is really important for me, and what everybody else should get from LinkedIn is the relationships and the opportunities that have ensued on that platform. We've had sponsorship deals, PR opportunities, connecting with some world leading founders. So there's so much opportunity there. But I do agree there is too much of the very varnish talking about the the winds, not the failures on that platform, I do think there's been a bit of a change a bit of a headwind coming in about people more talking about the the ugly, unvarnished truth. So I think, you know, that's why this podcast actually exists. And I think we probably need to do some more content on the platform about showing about all the mishaps and the efforts that we have along our way, because there's definitely been lots of them. So yeah, 2024 that's both be more conscious to talk about some of the mishaps and when things go wrong, because it's not all plain sailing, that's for sure.

Unknown: 58:46

And I often I can see the comfort you have on on that platform in the ways that you posted the consistency that you post and like you said, Perhaps there's more to uncover still. But so for me, and for the other listeners out there, many of whom I think might be thinking, hey, you know, 2024, let's use LinkedIn better. As you mentioned, like, let's put some more real stories out there. Would you give any other hints or tips as to how we can just kind of get out there, perhaps be bold, like we were talking about before, and build some real connections and opportunities through LinkedIn? Yeah,

Ollie Collard: 59:27

so the first thing I would say is, you should be connecting with your target audience. So LinkedIn can allow you to send up to 100 connection requests a week. So I would do that manually. I would click on someone's profile, do a search. First of all, click on someone's profile, see wherever the right type of person, I would look at what they're posting and engaging with. And then I would send a very specific connection requests based on their activity. It is a bit time consuming, but you get some fantastic results from it. So that's it. First thing is about cultivating a network of the types of people that you want to connect to, then it's obviously about being front of mind and posting, you know, should be posting if you can two to three times a week. And then also, the third parts of that is then commenting on people in your network. And that is probably the bit where a lot of people don't realise the impact that that strategy can have as well, if you had to break it down to very free simple steps, connecting with those that you want to connect with posting actively thought leadership pieces, and also talking about the realities. And then thirdly, commenting on your network at the same time. And

Unknown: 1:00:42

I think we as with kind of many of the platforms, your voice will evolve, as you start to say more. And I think that's also an important thing that many of us try to be to make it perfect before we start getting moving on it. But really, as you start to speak, and this is something I've found more on other platforms, although I kind of go through love and hate relationships with LinkedIn, sometimes I'm there, but I definitely like said needed it more in 2024. So I'm going to take on that advice. And I'm going to try to try to overcome that perfectionism that stops me from putting anything out there at all. Yeah,

Ollie Collard: 1:01:21

and lastly is don't oversell everybody hates people who get spammy messages, like, build relationships. Relationships take time.

Unknown: 1:01:32

Yeah, I like that. Be patient with it. So another thing that you need to be patient with is building a SaaS product, or certainly according to Eric, this is very hard. And what I loved about this part of the conversation again, it was just another reveal around what's what's the reality of what goes on in business. So often, we see businesses that look very much like their SAS very much like their product base. The truth is, that consulting still makes up a large part of those businesses or bespoke projects or other things that are going on behind the scenes that aren't that product play. And so I thought it was really important that Eric brought that out and started to talk about his hybrid business model. And actually, in their case, they're still very service focused, I think others, you know, the shift here, he talks about 95%, consulting, 2% product, and then the rest of it on a few other bits and pieces. But you know, even even businesses that are very much a product play and appear to be a product place sometimes might only be 50%. Product, for example. So the it's only part of the picture. Yeah.

Ollie Collard: 1:02:44

And what I'd say is like, everybody loves product, because it's inherently scalable compared to, obviously consulting. But the reality often isn't that, as you say, and I think Eric is talking about that in very candid terms. And I really thank him for being honest with that. And, you know, his original vision of being a lot more product base hasn't materialised, but he's come to realise that actually, it was probably unrealistic in the first place. So yeah, and also what I'd say about Sass companies, there's been a bit of a change, I think, you know, as a business owner, loads of us have got subscriptions coming out of our ears, particularly with the use of AI as well, there's been a lot of blurring between SAS products I found. And there's been a bit of a change, I think, where SAS companies are now thinking about rather than just charging a standard subscription, could we do like a pay as you go model PAY ON DEMAND pay for what you use? And I think that's quite interesting. And I think that will resonate a lot with business owners actually. So what I would say to potential SAS founders, this thing is don't just copy an existing business model, because that's what everyone else is doing. And that comes back to what we were saying before about being bold. Like, you don't have to copy what is already working, because that might not be working tomorrow. Yeah,

Unknown: 1:04:10

I think that that's really good advice. And the the other thing I was going to add there is partnerships end up being a really important play as well, like you said, there's this kind of blurring and, and some of the incumbent platforms, for example, they're able to quite quickly and easily kind of adding new technology often. And so it's also and this was something that Eric did talk about, too, is kind of what's the what's that relationship with the incumbents. And I'm not gonna go into into lots of detail about that now, but there are different relationships that you can build and kind of partnerships and plugins can be very viable business models, as well. So there's different ways to do it. So I know that the product can feel very simple to be like we're going to make a product. People are going to subscribe to it. It's gonna scale and, you know, Bob's your uncle. But the reality is that the actual getting to that point is not necessarily simple. Or in fact, it may not even be possible in your particular scenario. So, definitely looking at those other options is important. So I'd really like to hear more now about what is in the future for Eric and the rival. So the future for us is, as I said, we've had a very clear five to seven year plan from the beginning. And I've got the plan on a page and I've got our 2022 plan and our 2023 plan, and now I'm finalising our 2024 plan. So that part is clear how we measure success. I guess there's the obvious answers of like, we've got OKRs, you know, objective key results, kind of what are the most important battles that we want to fight every year and every quarter? We've got targets. So bookings targets revenue targets, profit targets, but I guess, you know, maybe the answer that would be more interesting to people listening. And going back to what I said about why I started it, is I want to build a successful business, I want to show that I can do it. And obviously, it's not just me, I've got co founders have got people in the company and actually think of my role as CEO is trying to be the dumbest person at my own company. And I think I'm succeeding with that, to be honest. So it is a collective effort. But I want to I want to see if I can climb that peak, that Everest, and that to me, one. And this is something I learned from Gary, it's about the journey as much as the summit, you have to enjoy the climb, because you might not get there. And you don't want that to all be wasted time if you don't. But to you know, the ideal and what have you said from the beginning is that at some point, we exit, we sell to a consulting firm, an agency holding group, maybe a strategic investor. So I guess that that is truly how I would define success is that we built a business that is so successful that somebody else wants to buy it, and we can continue to scale it from there. And

Ollie Collard: 1:07:09

just to be clear, the summer is the exit cracked, cool. What are your predictions for the next big shift in brand marketing and consumer engagement?

Unknown: 1:07:21

So one, I always whenever anybody asked me about predictions, I'm like, I'm, I think you can, I think you can gain and lose a lot more by how quickly and how well you adapt to how things are right now, as opposed to trying to figure out where they're gonna go. So that's always my push with that is like, don't worry about 12 months from now, don't worry about six months from now, you're probably not maximising the opportunity of what the market your competitive set your product your team is showing you at this very moment. But in terms of predictions for brands, I think this media company thinking is particularly for b2b businesses, you know, I'm fascinated by tech companies that are acquiring media companies. And we've actually looked at that, you know, we're 20 people. But there are plenty of like one person media companies out there where someone would just love to have a full time job and continue doing what they're doing. And if you can buy an audience, it's obviously gonna be faster than trying to build an audience given how competitive that is. And then you look at the financial arbitrage of, you know, HubSpot bought the hustle, the valuation of a media company, just selling sponsorship on email, versus the valuation of what that audience means when HubSpot can start selling their sweet. I think that that is super interesting. So I don't know if that's as much of a prediction, but I think, I think brands, everything is only going to get more competitive, right. And that's for dollars, as well as, and what becomes increasingly more important, is attention. And so I think you're gonna see more and more brands start to think and act and potentially buy media companies, because they recognise that, you know, I always love that quote of people don't care where good content comes from, they just care that it's good. People will watch an ad from a brand. If it's good content, the problem is that most ads suck. But I think this media company model focuses brands on creating content, for the purpose of adding value to their audience, entertainment, information, whatever it might be. And so I think that that's gonna see that's gonna be I think that'll be an increasing trend is whether they think of it that way or not marketing to add value to the audience in order to attract or retain their attention.

Ollie Collard: 1:09:44

Yeah, just a side note there about Sam Pars, the hustle newsletter, which is fantastic. I was an early subscriber and they've just changed the model and they've because obviously, you've been bought out by HubSpot, and now it's a free newsletter that you can sign up to. I got a refund Have a day of my subscription. So yeah, just a quick plug there for people listening to go and subscribe there. Eric, one of the key parts of founded and grounded is asking our featured entrepreneurs to distil down just one piece of advice that you would pass on to somebody thinking of starting a business, or somebody who's already running one. So what would that one piece of advice be?

Unknown: 1:10:23

I think it is different thinking about starting a business than running one, of course. And I go back to my own experience. And, you know, like I said, if you plan on my career, 100 times, maybe 50 of those times ends with me starting a business, I don't know, if it was the right thing for me. I think most people, you know, are always going to kind of reverse engineer and justify things to themselves and be like, Yeah, of course, it was the length, I don't know, I don't know, if I would be looking back on my life in the future happier, healthier, if I hadn't started a business versus as I have that still kind of to be played out. And so I think there's a grass is always greener type thing. But I think, you know, one man story and experience, be if you're thinking about starting a business, be really sure that you are set up, of course, for the financial, of course, for the time commitment, but also for the emotional and psychological Wait, an impact, that at least the way I'm doing it, probably with all my faults, that that comes with, I think, if you are currently running a business, two things, one, figure out what you need to do for your mental health, and prioritise that above all else, you know, I've got my things. It's not perfect, but like, I make sure those are taken care of, and also recognise that it is a marathon, not a sprint. And then I think more more practically, you know, what, it's been interesting in the podcasts that I do, I don't know if you do stuff like this, as well. But we just did like an insight show, you know, we've done 100 episodes, interviewing CMOS, what are the biggest takeaways and things like that? And there's a few things in there actually publishing it today. But, yeah, it's just so obvious to me, like all growth comes from having a differentiated understanding of the needs of customers and being able to deliver on that. And that's really, that's really it at the end of the day, right. And so I think, as a founder, there is never too much time to spend listening to and trying to understand the customers, and the needs that they have like that is where all the answers lie. And I've never come come across anyone that spends too much time. And almost everybody, myself included, doesn't spend enough time. Spend more time with your customers? Or if

Ollie Collard: 1:12:42

you had to sum up marketing in a sentence, how would you describe it?

Unknown: 1:12:47

Marketing is the story you tell to change, perception of behaviour in order to drive growth to your business.

Ollie Collard: 1:12:54

And Eric, where can people find out a bit more about rival you personally online.

Unknown: 1:12:59

So we are rival.com is our website, you can find everything there. I'm most active on LinkedIn. So feel free to hit me up. You can also email me directly, Eric, with a C at WWE. arrival.com.

Ollie Collard: 1:13:13

Eric, thank you so much for your time and insights this afternoon. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. And thank you for being so humble and honest in terms of your answers as well today, I

Unknown: 1:13:23

really enjoyed it. Thank you, thank you. There was such a vitally important message that Eric gave us there about spending time with your customers. And he said, I don't think I've ever met a founder that that needs to spend less time with their customers. And I definitely resonate with that as well. And for many businesses that I've worked with, almost always the answer to one of their challenges is to spend more time with their customers. There's so many different aspects of the business that you can understand better that you can test that you can overcome by spending more time with your customers. And we talked about that in previous episodes, as well as so kind of getting out there being with them. And that, of course, allows you to have more fun on this journey. Being with those people, your apps actually supporting it. That's what helps with this whole piece around enjoying the journey. And of course, this is something that Eric mentioned as well. And we hear it all the time. It's the journey. It's not just the destination. I think I like how Eric was, again, very honest that the destination matters and the destination is really important. That summit is the motivating factor for many of us when we're in business. There's a certain place that we just have in our heads of that's what success would look like to me and I Want to try and get there. But of course, the the importance of that journey along the way is really something to emphasise. And one piece, I think that I found very important in what he said was when I'm paraphrasing, but if it fails, and I still going to get something from this, and I think this is such an important mindset for a founder to have, and it's not about not believing in where you're going. But it is about saying, the reality is, if I'm going on this journey now, where might it take me if it doesn't take me where I want it to go? And it does need to allow us to move forward in some way. And I think the ways to do that, I mean, connecting your with your customers is certainly a good way to do that. Because you're building your network, you're getting energy from that journey. But I think just having this sense of curiosity, which Eric also demonstrated throughout, which was I need to see if this can work, I've got questions about what's going to work, what's not going to work. And having that curiosity and kind of delving into those questions also means that you're learning all the way through doing your business.

Ollie Collard: 1:16:14

Yeah. And also, I think that, you know, as you say, the journey is equally as important as the destination and lots of people have this big bold destination they want to get to. But if you're not taking a step back and enjoying the day to day, the journey, then you're probably not going to get there. I love what Eric says he says, If it fails, will we still get something from this, because what that does is essentially, it D risks your big bold ambition. Because if you don't get there, then it's still a good outcome. And if you're going into a business with that mindset, knowing that you can still win, even if you don't get to the final destination, then you've still achieved something.

Unknown: 1:16:58

We've learned a lot of lessons in this episode, haven't we? I feel like there's been a lot of a lot of profound statements. Maybe Eric Eric's brought it out of us. So make sure if you're interested in anything that Eric does anything that rivals doing, go and check out those links that he has shared with us. So now we need to go back to previous episodes, we actually have two questions that we haven't yet talked about on the podcast. So from seriously low carb, and phase craft, Ollie, who do you want to start with? Seriously? Low carb?

Ollie Collard: 1:17:35

Yeah, let's start with them. Because that was the episode before. So Andy's question was you're in a supermarket looking to purchase a healthy product? What messaging would make you act on a buying decision? He gave four options. Firstly, is it a scientific medical message? Eg keto, for example? Or is it a lifestyle diet? Message around weight loss? For example? Is it more generic? So is it like cheaper or healthier? And then lastly, is it something else that's not on that list? So interestingly, nobody said they would act on a buying decision if it was generic. So Eg is cheaper or healthier? So I think that's quite interesting in itself, the rest of the results were pretty split. So the leading answer was lifestyle, diet or weight loss, for example, with 43%. And then it was tied between scientific slash medical, and something else. So I think it really depends. I mean, it's hard to deduce what Andy would actually take from that, because the results are so split, but I think it comes down to people's personalities and what, what sticks out for them on the shelf.

Unknown: 1:18:49

Yes, there are very specific needs, because I'm trying to think what what causes me to buy things and I think the I actually might have might be in that generic category, you know, but I also get gluten free is usually the thing I'm looking for. So again, that would fall into some of those other categories. So if it's gluten free, and I fancy it, I'll have it. And so, let's let's talk about phase craft, then totally different company, totally different question. What are people saying about phase cross question?

Ollie Collard: 1:19:24

So phase craft, the quantum computing company wanted to know which area of scientific and technological progress are you most excited about at the moment? They gave four options, firstly, quantum computing, their area of interest and expertise, artificial intelligence, AI, nuclear fusion, or space exploration. Interestingly, the results came back and nobody gave the answer of space exploration. The highest answer was, in fact, quantum can Eating. And I don't know whether people were maybe influenced by listening to Ashley's story and interest in quantum computing. So that was the leading answer where 57% followed by AI with 36%, followed by nuclear fusion with just 7% of the answers. How

Unknown: 1:20:18

fascinating that that was the split. And I do I think I think our audience have been well educated by Ashley, and I'm sure our audience are well educated anyway. So yes, that's, that's an interesting one, though, because they're, I guess they're all areas where we're going to see great bands and great exploration and we probably can't even picture the world that we're going to be stepping into as all those technologies continued to evolve. So Ollie, tell us who have we got on the next episode of the podcast, we have

Ollie Collard: 1:20:53

got a brilliant startup who have taken a waste product and turned it into a sustainable packaging company. We've got the founder of envy pap chap named Kishore and he's going to be talking about sustainability and packaging and the explosion of E commerce as well. So very excited for that episode.

Unknown: 1:21:16

Well, thank you everyone for listening to this week's episode. If you like what you've heard, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts. And don't forget that there's a big selection of previous episodes for you on your favourite podcast player, just search founded and grinded. Thank you for listening to find it in grounded with Ollie collard and Dr. Becky sage. Don't forget to press that follow button to help us to grow the show.