envoPAP: Turning waste into sustainable wealth

Meet Kaushal Shah, the impact entrepreneur behind envoPap, who is on a mission to help save the planet while making a profit. He turns agricultural waste into sustainable paper and packaging, and in this conversation, he shares his secrets to success in business and beyond.

Key takeaways

- Sustainable Innovation: Learn how Kaushal has built out an end-to-end sustainable business model focused on both community development and economic growth

- Smart scaling: We peel back the layers to unpick how Kaushal achieves economic growth whilst successfully diversifying the business

- Grounded Mindset: How does Kaushal deal with cultural differences and large supply chain issues? By staying grounded through self-care practices like meditation

Finally, hear why falling in love with the problem, not just the solution, is vital to entrepreneurial success

Have questions about this episode? Ask our hosts, chat now via our website

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

I think every hour is different. And every hour, your mood changes quite a bit. It is very important to not get distracted to your long term goal. You're listening to find it and grounded with Ollie collard and Dr. Becky sage. The podcast brings you the honest realities of startup life. If you're a founder or aspiring entrepreneur, this is for you. We know running a business can be lonely and tough at times. And we want to help you get ahead with simple tips and sound advice. Every fortnight we hear inspiring stories from an early stage business owner, who's only a couple of steps ahead of you talking about what they've learned. And as your hosts, we share our insights and experiences as famed as so you can apply this to your own business. Hello, I'm Dr. Becky sage. I'm co host of founded and grounded. And I'm here today with Ali Ali, how are you today?

Ollie Collard: 1:16

Yeah, I'm not too bad. I've got a bit of a lurgi has come down in the collared household. But the show must go on Becky. So ploughing ahead. And I'm just pleased that we've got it now because it's just be going away at the end of the week. And

Unknown: 1:30

we'll get to enjoy your husky voice throughout this podcast today.

Ollie Collard: 1:35

Well, I don't know about that maybe.

Unknown: 1:38

And it's quite a challenge. Again, this is something that as entrepreneurs, I think we often just pretend like we don't get ill. And we don't have these moments of feeling a little bit more lethargic and down and not being able to necessarily run at our normal pace. But it's pretty normal. It's very human for us to pick up these bugs and have to deal with it. Right?

Ollie Collard: 2:01

Yeah. And I think it puts founders and entrepreneurs in a bit of a hard place sometimes because like, you feel like you should be working and you have to work. But often I find that if you're really bad, then it's actually more productive just to rest and recoup. And then actually, you're going to have more energy to go again. Yeah,

Unknown: 2:19

I completely agree. I have an autoimmune conditions as a chronic illness. And sometimes I get fatigue with that. And for the early years in the business, I would just beat myself up about it and still try to push through. And I've realised now that if you take those small moments of rest, then it's much more sustainable. You can you know, you get over it a lot more quickly. And then you can get back to it. So yeah, I'm definitely an advocate for taking that break when you need it. 100%.

Ollie Collard: 2:48

And I think self care as a founder is something that you learn along your journey. I mean, I'm kind of six years in and still learning it. So I think it's something that probably doesn't come naturally. So we just want to kind of get that message out there to any founders listening.

Unknown: 3:04

Yes, please do look after yourself. So talking about founders, and we'll discover in this interview whether this founder looks after themselves and how they do it. But who are we talking to this week, Ollie? We've

Ollie Collard: 3:16

got a great founder on today's episode. So we've got Kishore, who is founder of a company called invoke pap, which is a sustainable packaging company. And

Unknown: 3:27

I really love this company. And I have really enjoyed listening to the interview, I think if there's a theme to take away from this is that there's a really strong ethos that over time has been woven throughout this whole business. So this business is a little bit more mature than maybe some of the other ones that we're talking to. And from a time perspective, as well as been around a little bit longer. And so I think that that gives us another set of things that we can learn from commercial as a founder, I should also say that I've worked with because you'll previously and for me, I was so impressed by that integration of Commercial and Impact success being able to do both. And I think so many of the founders that we talk to this is what their mission is to build both Commercial and Impact success. And so I think that this is a really perfect story for everyone to listen into. So let's jump to part one of the interview so everyone can find out more

Ollie Collard: 4:30

crucial get off afternoon. How you doing?

Unknown: 4:33

Wonderful, Ali, thank you so much for inviting me.

Ollie Collard: 4:36

That's great. Okay, it's me, it's an absolute pleasure to have you on founded and grounded. So thank you for making the time and coming into the studio here in London in Soho. Because you're first of all I wanted to share something so we actually share our country of birth, which is India. Wonderful to know, indeed a fantastic country. You saw firsthand a significant waste problem I'm in India. Tell me about this and how did this lead to you starting envelope app,

Unknown: 5:07

I might have to go a little back to really showcase how and mobile app all began. So I come from a family in India, which has been in the paper and packaging space since 1965. And I was pursuing under graduation in India, and that time I was working in the family business. So back to 2010. That's when being one of the leaders in the country we faced a huge shortage of food pulp. And that is the main competent for making paper and packaging boards. So it was quite, you know, astonishing to know that there is a shortage because the world has very limited number of trees to cut down fast for 2014, I applied for Master's at University of Southampton, Gordon, and my family, shipped me out here to one year of study work, understanding the European market and come back and join the family business. But this is the same time when I was here, I started visiting few exhibitions of packaging seminars, and going across the market to understand what is different in the European region. And that's when the whole idea came that the whole world is trying to move away from single use plastic, which is derived from fossil fuels, to wood based paper packaging. And that reminds me of my 2010 experience working in the family business. I was like, How is it possible right now that companies are saying very proudly bold claims here, we're moving away from plastic wonderful. But we are moving to another problem. So how can we solve one problem to another like, I feel that's the humans most biggest mistake. And that's when the whole idea came. So going back to India, glad to know that you're born in the same country. I'm a Western boy born in Pune. But in India, we face a huge problem, which is waste management. In India, we generate about close to three 70 million tonnes of waste agricultural waste, which is not being able to use for any food for any cow or any any animals. But more importantly, it usually gets burned or then dumped. And every later end of the year, if you look at the media reports of Northern India being smoked with smoke, that is because of the rice harvest and wheat harvest being burned down. So that's where the waste management crisis came in. But if we go in one step deeper into that, it's because for a farmer, you have to understand the India is a country where a lot of farms are owned by small and medium sized farmers. So it's one day goes by because now for them. One, they have to take it on the side of the field, put an effort to take it on the side of the field. The second is because the crops they're growing are only a certain height, and they take off only half of it. So the offices left. So instead of putting manpower and labour to clean it up, it's rather better take a matchbox and light the whole farm on fire get up in the morning, you're done, done dusted for that farmer, he has the least amount of concern about the environment. So we looked at the problem from two ways if yes, there is a problem of waste management. The second is farmers don't have enough opportunity to get into the waste manage proper waste management cycles, or are they making good money if offered. So we looked at that and that's how InfoPath was started. The model is very simple. We want to empower farmers, so we buy their waste at a price. Once we've bought this, we convert that into different materials. And that's how we are utilising the consumption of waste, which would have been burned down or then dumped into the ground, and then making them into products which can be utilised in industries across you know, print packaging, and now into the replacement of single use plastics. So we're getting there. It's

Ollie Collard: 8:38

a very clever solution, because you'll absolutely love it interest to know how do you connect with all of these small farmers that are owning sort of one to five acres of land? That seems like quite a large job to be able to go out contact them for film and make these payments to buy their waste? How does that happen on the ground.

Unknown: 8:59

So one looks more than lemonade. It's a very simple idea but it's like we're very passionate about improving the lives of farmers being a third generation farmer myself. So it all starts with we use a different types of wastes now and we work with multiple vendors on the ground so it will be working with sugar mills who are generating hundreds of tonnes of waste then wheat Mills or rice mills again, or then we work with contractors, a contractor would work with multiple farmers he would go send his trucks or carts and collect all that waste and get it to the pulping facilities we have in India and then it gets cleaned so because when we collect it from farms you you're expected to have lots of dust lots of dirt or some other plastic items. So the first process is cleaning of that waste after it has been cleaned with goes through this screening process. If we find any metal items or aluminium or cans or something like that, for the cleaning once we have cleaned it up and it is good to be used in pulping that's when we convert that into a liquid pulp. And then the process is very simple. So we once we have created that into pulp now, let's take a step back what paper production is made in the similar process. So you take a tray, cut it down, make that into chips, the chips are then pulped. And that wet pulp is then put on a machine where it is being dried on into making paper. So if you touch any of your paper materials in available, I mean you know all your foot all the way from your magazines to your books, you will see there's a certain amount of extra if you look at into the light, and that's the same technology we have utilised here is the making of the paper is as good as wood fibre. So products have become plug and play. So when it comes to pushing out materials into where wood fibre paper packaging has been used, it's like a plug and play. So the convert or the printer or packaging company doesn't have to think once or twice again, will this work on my machine?

Ollie Collard: 10:52

Amazing. And I like the fact that you've got all of those contractors, as you called them that the essentially the distribution in the country. And essentially that's creating more jobs and economic wealth as well locally, isn't it?

Unknown: 11:05

Yes. And at the end of the day if we are growing and we are inspiring a world with better carbon negative packaging, we also want to focus on community development. And right now we are working with an organisation called Fairtrade. So with Fairtrade we are looking to buy all our sugarcane waste with Fairtrade certified sugar mills in India, so that they have their own you know, setup where a certain number of farmers are part of the cohort. And then we are paying a premium which goes into that escrow account. So those those farmers who are contracted with a certain Sugar Mill is able to get the federal benefits and as a company for us the benefit is that yes, there is a demand for Fairtrade certified products in the packaging sector as well. So just an example like you're buying Fairtrade certified soap or a coffee or what if the packaging is also Fairtrade certified? It's a full feelgood factor, right? And for supermarkets, it's a great story to tell them good product to sell. So we're looking at from that side. But community development is very important for us. And that's why we are also a B Corp for the last four years now. 2019 amazing.

Ollie Collard: 12:09

And interestingly, you said there about you know people selling these Fairtrade products, but if they aren't Fairtrade over all aspects of the product, including the packaging. Are they really fair trade or not?

Unknown: 12:24

I think it's a process. It's a process of transition, and it will take time to for a lot of the products we see in the supermarket to be 100%. Fairtrade certified. Right now it's starting with certain components. So your coffee is Fairtrade certified or your sugar but the packaging material is not all the printing ink on that is not or the supermarket as a whole is not buying 100% Of all the coffee and sugar being Fairtrade certified, I think we are starting in that phase where you have certain sections in the supermarket, Hey, these are the Fairtrade certified products or green products or vegan products. So I think we are in that phase, and it's a transition. And I don't doubt in the next 10 years, I think we'll have more and more Fairtrade certified because individuals can make a larger impact in such a way by helping companies or doing community development. Excellent.

Ollie Collard: 13:13

And I like what you said about the manufacturers of the final products not having to adjust their manufacturing processes in order to make your products as well. And I think that's really key to make it easy for them. But also it reduces your costs as well, which will then enable them to pass on to your customers as well as

Unknown: 13:34

Yes, so remembering started off the first time when we made out of material, I still remember 2015 It was at a studio, where I was staying in St. John's Wood. And the whole idea at that time was, hey, we have a lot of ways let's push that make some paper, put it into a4 size packs, put some good branding, make it into a great story and just set it up. So from there, now it goes on, I think the product has progressed quite a bit. We used to get customers saying we weren't even right on it. It's so it's not even that wide, because it's made from waste, to now the same customers buying it in full flakes. So it does take time. I think innovation with waste has its own journey, and it will have its own strengths and weaknesses because the fibres are different at the end of the day. But this is where collaboration plays a huge role. And I think we were very blessed to have some amazing collaboration customers industry partners University as well, who worked with us in making our product better and which is why today I can sit in front of you and confidently say heck my materials are plug and play for a lot of the printing packaging industry. And they're not losing any time on the efficiency. So if they're using plastic materials are wood fibre and they're producing 1000 units, if they use my material, they're gonna make the same number of units so their cost is not going up. If they are using a certain amount of ink. It's the same amount of ink being used. So it is making their convenience to change easier. And that's what we focused on for the last eight years in terms of innovation and research.

Ollie Collard: 15:09

I love that as well. Because often a big barrier to change is these, the friction that is there. But essentially, you've removed all of that friction to make it easy for people to be able to convert the process of turning into either PayPal or other sustainable packaging products, which is, which is fantastic. Just take me back to those early days then of sort of 2015. So you've done this first batch of a4 paper, you know, you fought the idea probably had a bit of legs, but how did you go from this very kind of grassroots idea to actually turning it into a business.

Unknown: 15:46

So firstly, a lot of thanks to my family, they supported me from the very beginning, they still are, and being part of a business where we've already done paper packaging for years in the business. So for me at a younger age, I would love to go to the factory and sit on the forklift, tie myself there and go up and down, I would enjoy that more than being on the roller coaster. So but if we go back to the early stages, one was making the product but also getting the product out to the market. And the best way to get to the market was, that's when I noticed the exhibitions, which I went, I wanted to make sure that we are there. So we started exhibiting, and we started exhibiting every two, three months at large expos where they used to be 50 60,000 people. So that's where the brand got a lot of traction. We did that five years in a row, I still remember we used to do that for five days, kind of like eight o'clock, we're on the stand until then. And it's just selling. And that's when it's also motivation. Because when you tell the product story and the concept and people Oh, wow, this is something I would love to get into my country. And we are currently doing business in 58 countries. That time in the first year itself, I remember we export it to 14 different countries. And that was the love the product God, it was something a lot of people relate it to, because a4 paper something like you know it's there in your office, you don't really care what brand it is right? But oh, if it is made from a different waste source, let me try it. Let me see if I have got a market for that. And 2015 Nobody was talking about sustainability. It was just oh yeah, there are some green products and very early stages. So we've been through lots of, you know, human convincing challenges. For our packaging, materials business, it used to be like the management or the sustainability team or the operations team used to be like, Oh, we love this. But when it goes to the production side, the operators were not very comfortable moving it to because they said you know, they are very happy with what is going on. They don't want to put that effort of moving to a new material supplier and going through that phase. So it does take a lot of time with larger businesses to get them completely hooked on and then move into contractual commitments. But it's a journey. And I think survival is good. Because if you survive a few years, then the same customer comes back. This innovation was great we saw a few years ago. Now they're selling now we see a lot of them in multiple places. Now let me take that risk. And so early years, I think God that we kept pushing, kept going for lots of expos. Being in London, I think that was a great benefit. Because you're exposed to this amazing startup ecosystem where everyone wants to help you. Everyone knows someone who's out here on the other end, they really like and relate to your story. There are people who have open heartedly just made introductions, hey, you should speak to these guys. They use a lot of packaging, it might be worth the conversation. And this way, we have developed some amazing relationships with incredible clients.

Ollie Collard: 18:49

A fantastic journey, as you say, like a shill. And I guess in terms of the kind of macro climate in terms of, you know, the climate crisis coming more to the forefront and people's awareness of sustainability being embedded into everybody's daily life, and also the explosion of E commerce person says, I guess that has helped the business along those years.

Unknown: 19:12

Yes, so funny 2020. We raised around on Cloud cube, and we went live on our campaign on the 17th of March 2021. Day before Boris Johnson comes on the TV and says Hey, from tomorrow there's a lockdown. So, but the lockdown, we did manage to raise and beat our target by two 50%. But that was also the same time when ecommerce deliveries went too high. And thanks to our research, which we started in 2018 on our E commerce packaging material, our 2020 we actually survived because of our sales in the e Commerce Industry. And new customers came on board and the E commerce boom has been great because if you look at The amount of packaging waste which has been used, so we focused on reducing the amount of material being used. If you're getting a book, you don't need three different types of packaging can one single material do the job. So we started researching with lots of companies of how we can reduce the amount of material, make a different material, which has multiple end of life, so that if it's a consumer at home, they got a book. And if they have a home compost bin, just trash it and put it in there. So it turns into home composting, or even if it goes into soil, or water or seeds, it doesn't impact ocean life or the land itself. And for us, it was very important of making sure that material is recyclable, so that it can be made into paper at the end, these are waste fibres, and they can be converted into new materials. So we looked at these two aspects of reducing the amount of material being used. And the second is focusing on the end of life of it. And these two factors definitely helped us survive the pandemic, work with the E commerce sector and keep going.

Ollie Collard: 21:01

I love that. And from an outsider looking in now, it seems like a no brainer, I'm just curious about, you know, who's competing with you what the what the objections that you get when you're trying to sell this product to an organisation.

Unknown: 21:18

So, a lot of companies think they are using FSC certified wood products or be EFC certified and these are protected forest across the world by FSC, or PEFC. organisation and a lot of customers think you know what we are doing the right thing by using FSC certified products, it's coming from protected forests, or then we are using recycled materials. But when we did an LCA, and we understood our products, even though coming from India, the waste collection is in India, but if we compare it to London or UK customers, we still have a lower carbon footprint, even if they're manufactured in Europe, or even if they're coming from the US. So that definitely helped with a lot of the clientele in convincing why and will pap is good choice. Then second is a lot of times it also on the technical parameters, because not all machines, we have used our material. So the more we get into different industries, like right now we are making protein powder pouches, like something which you can just pick up from a supermarket one for one time you is now that there are multiple materials inside. So how do we make sure that our materials have those patio properties of making sure that the product inside is fresh when open, or it has the barriers of water resistance. So it's in that transition phase, each industry is very different. We have to tackle that in a very different way. People are very different. Because we work in so many different markets. I think understanding cultures is also very important. And being respectful of that is also very important. So lots of learnings in the last few years for sure. And more importantly, I love that this industry is so buzzing, right now everybody is looking to collaborate and that collaborative approaches where we will take it forward to a better, greener, sustainable life. But coming back to the sustainability right now, as you saw in cop 28, we need $4 trillion of investments into climate finance. And right now it's $80 billion. So we are far off right now. And I really hope the next you know few years, we are able to get closer to the targets. Fantastic.

Ollie Collard: 23:28

And I'm interested about how you balance all of this kind of new product development. So you started out with the paper and books and talking about protein packaging, etc. Now, how do you balance developing new products versus using that money to reinvest to grow the business?

Unknown: 23:46

So from the very beginning, we've always focused on that we focus on products where we have the highest amount of impact number one, where our quantities can be scaled up. And number three, the bottom line is good. Like the profitability for every industry is very different. So every year we used to make a product analysis Hey, you know what, today we are working in the cosmetics sector, we're making some facemask pouch packaging, or we are making boxes for your perfumes or stuff like that. Or if it's in the food industry, we are making burger packaging or your coffee or tea packaging. If we move into your confectionery products or FMCG products, we kept continuously going into understanding which different products can our materials replace? Do we have the clientele for that? And if we have to innovate with this, how do we go about it? So we've been blessed with some amazing university partnerships here in the UK from university about from the 2018 they've supported us. Henry Joyce Institute of materials and University of Manchester we've worked with University of Warwick in Germany we have worked with to dressed in and in India, we worked with it root key and it carpooled. Some of the finest institutions who have helped us in this transition? So, for me, I love going to supermarkets wherever I travel in the world. And one of the things I don't go to buy, I actually go to understand what kind of products are being packaged, what's being imported. How are they, you know, getting about it? Is there any credentials being mentioned in the packaging? And that's how a lot of innovations have come through either us going out to the market and looking at how we can do it better. Or customers have come to us, Hey, we love your story. We like your product. We like our material. Can you do this for us in our industry? And yeah, we lost years, our project was for us was to make wine packaging, and we've created one of the most beautiful wine packaging, I would buy the box rather than the wine. Amazing.

Ollie Collard: 25:39

I'd love to check that out. Because surely I'm really interested in what different all of this has made. In terms of difference to your customers sustainability, the planet? Can you share how INVO perhaps products have contributed towards environmental conservation, particularly in reducing deforestation and waste?

Unknown: 26:02

Sure. So let's go back all the way to the start. When we buy the waste, we are helping from getting burned, reducing the amount of air pollution from there, the more waste we use, the less Woodfibre are going to be utilised. So for us, yes, it's not a direct direct impact, but it's an indirect impact, where a number of trees being cut down have been reduced every year for the paper consumption packaging. For us, our waste gets generated every single year, but for a tree, it takes 20 to 25 years. So there is this a lot of amount of waste. Though it is, end of life of it, we can make as different New Age materials as we want. But if you're not able to recycle, they're just gonna be on this planet getting going to get burned or incinerated at some point of time. And then the amount of reduction of carbon emissions because today our packaging materials have a 28% lower carbon footprint, when we compare it to wood fibre packaging, or when we compare it to plastic materials derived from fossil fuels, we do have a higher impact because fossil fuels have very limited end of life. And even though it is recyclable, but the cycling rate is male, less than 50% 9% of all the plastic which we produce is recycled. So we look at these four pillars. One is communities, one with farmers and the air pollution aspect of it. The second is deforestation, how we can utilise more waste and take the number of trees being cut down reduce that. Third is the carbon emissions cycle for overall because for us, it's not just the production of raw materials, it's also transportation all the way to the customer location and comparing that to the materials which they were utilising before. So are we doing a good job and then the end of life of it as well, where all the materials we are utilising in our production processes. So we last year, we recently got vegan certified in October of 2022. And we were very proud we went through that journey of going through every single chemical we're putting into our manufacturing and how it impacts the future of you know, the process of utilising it getting it packaged, then it goes to the customer and if it goes to recycling in different parts of the world, because we might be sending a packaging to a company based in Poland. But that Polish company is selling that packaging across Europe, so it's going to go to multiple different countries. And having that certified end of life I do feel is a very important factor. As a founder for me, if I'm innovating with a new material, the end of life also shouldn't be on equal ground. A word about our sponsors. The security threat to UK tech startups is growing. Protecting your innovation is crucial to your business success. Secure innovation is here to help and it only takes a few simple steps to get started. Don't leave it too late. Visit npsa.gov.uk forward slash innovation. To find out more and download the quickstart guide for free today. Are you looking to access finance for your business but unsure where to go and who to trust? Introducing hexa finance providing growth funding to startups and scale ups throughout the UK, Ben and stews started exa finance with a clear mission to make finance more accessible to business owners like you. Launched in 2020. They know firsthand the growing pains you're facing their fast growth business is the proud winner of the startup of the Year Award and has recently been recognised for its economic contribution. So if you need funding now, or it's on your horizon, the experienced team at hexar finance are here to help. To access your free consultation simply go to hexar finance.co.uk forward slash contact so I said, going into this interview that we might learn more about what it is to create an impactful business and a business that is a commercial success. And I don't know about you, Ollie, but I feel like this was a masterclass in how to create an impactful and commercial business

Ollie Collard: 30:16

100%, I was blown away by how well because she has actually balanced the two. And that's where the real magic happens. And you can just see how much because she cares about the business and sustainability, and making sure that all stakeholders win. And I think that's why it's such a great business. And it comes back to that love and caring, and

Unknown: 30:37

it felt so integrated, didn't they, the two things. It's not like, Oh, we're focusing on the business on one side of it and making money. And then we're focused on creating impact, and we care about sustainability, the whole thing is completely integrated. And I think the reason they were able to do that, and the thing that struck me in this first part of this interview, is something that we talk about a lot. But I don't think I've ever seen it as beautifully executed as odd certainly, as described by Kushal in this interview, and this is about having this love for the problem space. So really interrogating being curious. And doing that across the whole problem space.

Ollie Collard: 31:20

Yeah, let's not beat around the bush here. This is genuine love and care for the problem. It's not all that so understand our, you know, target audience a bit more and make a business out of it. It's so much more than that. And my advice is always the founders and I'm sure your Echo This is trying to fall in love with the problem, not the solution. But I think cuz surely is on another level here. He is literally knee deep in this and this isn't like some honeymoon period. This is eight years in. So his love for it hasn't changed.

Unknown: 31:52

Yeah. And I think what struck me is it's this love, like you said for the problem space. And the problem space then encapsulates such a wide group of stakeholders, such a wide range of skill sets required different sectors that they're working in. But because you have that underpinning love for the problem, space, all the rest of it becomes integrated via that. And I think that's why it feels very connected, is that there is this this real deep love understanding curiosity around the problem space, and so on. That, of course, is sustainability. But I think it also went back to, you know, right back to childhood, I loved hearing the cars shoes, kind of wouldwould, just as much as be sat on a forklift in the factory is he would want to be on a roller coaster, it in fact, I think he said he'd prefer to do that than be on a roller coaster. So you can just feel that as he was growing up, he was getting integrated into the industry. And this is giving him I guess, the love for manufacturing the business for the specifics around, you know, paper packaging, and starts there. But it's kind of grown so much since then, as well. Yeah,

Ollie Collard: 33:06

I mean, two things that I'd say there is firstly, having this macro view of all of the different stakeholders, making it all connected li in a very seamless way is an incredibly hard skill to master. And it's a very hard one to teach. I think sometimes, you know, you have to have this strategic brain within you to be able to coax out these skills. But I mean, obviously, he would have made mistakes along the way. But as I say, his strategic capabilities absolutely outstanding. And I think like you say it comes back down to things that influenced him in his childhood. I mean, sustainability definitely isn't a buzzword here is integrated into every single part of the business. It is the core feature of the business. And I like what you said there about his childhood, because often in our childhoods, you don't actually realise but actually later in life, there's things that you do then, which are influenced by your childhood and I, I kind of really hate quoting kind of overused quotes, but Steve Jobs does really summed this up well, that you can only connect the dots looking backwards.

Unknown: 34:15

Yeah, but I think that's a lot of what's going on here as we listen to the interview as well, which is cuz y'all has found and Embo pap has found this win win win win scenario. And it really is not just a win win. There's multiple stakeholders, including the environment, including the farmers, including the business and everyone who's involved in the business itself. And of course, the manufacturers and the end users as well. So he's got this win win win win. And I think it looks very clear from where we are now. But as we mentioned before, this business has been around for eight years. And actually he's been involved in the industry before that as well. So getting at that Um, that when when when, when being able to see this picture very clearly, is something that has evolved over time. And it's not something that I think we find, just immediately when we start our business, it's through that kind of deep exploration, but also the discipline of stepping back and finding perspective, which, of course, is incredibly important for entrepreneurs, where we often can get trapped in the day to day, or how are we stepping back and seeing what's the most important thing right now, in order to help us with the bigger picture, and finally, figure out how we're going to build this wider strategy. And having said that, about it evolving over time, I think something else that for sure does very well is that he's very bold in his vision. And he had to be from the beginning of this business, because again, it doesn't work unless you consider all stakeholders, and how you solve problems for all those stakeholders. So right from the beginning, he had to believe, Oh, we're going to be able to access this waste, we're going to be able to process this waste, we're going to be able to engage with manufacturers, we're going to be able to build the products that's going to be able to plug into those manufacturers. So he did have to start with this bold vision, and actually believe that they would be able to move the needle on all of the aspects of this business. So crucial, has had this big vision and has managed to carry out this end to end analysis. Many businesses shy away from this. And do you why do you think businesses struggle with being bold with their vision?

Ollie Collard: 36:44

I think in this circumstance, it comes down to cachorros personality, I think you've got to understand that he's been embedded within business from a very young age, from his family's business, he's come over to this country to do his education. He's got this international mindset as well. So I think taking all of that, and his strategic mind, I think, has actually enabled him to build this end to end business quite naturally. So I think it was inherent within him. And others actually have to learn that skill set along the way. So I think he had a bit of a standing start there.

Unknown: 37:21

I think you're right, I think he should have had many opportunities, including, like you said, that inherent approach that has he's been able to apply to the building of this business, and his upbringing and what he was exposed to, I think there's also things that we can all learn from his approach so that we can take it with us because I guess people might be listening in and thinking, well, maybe I haven't even got it in me to be this kind of business person. But I think we can definitely develop the skills and take some of the strategies. So as we mentioned, he definitely had knowledge of the industry and had exposure when he was very young, which is going to mean that a lot of that knowledge is just built in. But of course, we can all gain experience in different ways. So I think that's that's the key to this really is thinking if there's an industry, you really want to be a part of find different ways to gain experience in that industry, if you haven't already. And perhaps understand that you don't have to jump into a business. Or immediately if you don't feel like you've got the experience to do that. Or you can start up a business and you can build knowledge and experience as you go along. So it's just knowing that you can build that over time. He also talks a lot about doing research, and of course, kind of academic research, but also research from a commercial perspective. And certainly doing a lot of networking that helps him to build his knowledge, during lots of trade shows, getting them out there, but also gaining the information from doing that. And I think that's something else that he really embodies is this notion of the entrepreneur who's always learning and they're, and they do that by focusing on one thing at a time, and really taking the learning from each thing. And then something else that we teach a lot when we're talking about kind of building the business and figuring out your model and figuring out how you're going to make it work is ecosystem mapping. Now, because she'll didn't explicitly talk about this, but I think it's he, he demonstrates it in terms of the business and the model, where he's looked across the whole ecosystem, looked at the key players and how they currently interact with one another, and then looked at where does Embo pap fit with each one of these people across the ecosystem? So getting a real understanding of how he fits across the whole ecosystem, instead of just thinking of kind of a singular interaction in terms of like customer business. It's like where do we actually sit in this whole ecosystem? Some

Ollie Collard: 39:56

great advice there Becky, which can be applicable to founders listening I think the ecosystem mapping piece is vitally important. But as you say, also just getting out there on cashews example of the the tradeshow circuit and not being afraid he's going out there interacting with customers, suppliers, selling in what his vision is, and just getting that feedback. And that's so critical to building a business. It's just not being afraid and putting yourself out there. And just getting rid of any inhibitions. And then just to pick up on one more point as well about if you're looking to go into a particular industry, or learn more about the world of startups, if you're not sure in your idea, yet, the best thing you can do is actually go and work in a startup yourself. So I'd say if you're not sure if your business idea just yet, try and get some exposure working within one, before you launch your own business. Many

Unknown: 40:47

of our founders talk about that don't know that many of the entrepreneurs that we speak to have had that experience previously, I certainly did. And actually even now doing mentoring and coaching and training with businesses alongside doing my own businesses is so valuable, because you get to really understand the ins and outs of different businesses. And again, you can learn about different sectors if there's a sector focus. So there's definitely lots of different ways that you can do that. And Kishore really did demonstrate this learning. Of course, a business with so many stakeholders is going to have a lot of learning along the way, and it must have its challenges. So let's go back to Cushaw. And let him tell us about what the challenges are and have been and how the here has overcome them. I think fundraising is still because it's a great journey. You'll learn a lot by meeting lots of great people, some bad people as well. But it's a lot of time, and you have to have those conversations, you have to put yourself out to the market. And it's a very hard thing at the end of the day, because you're passionate about the impact you're creating, you want to create more impact. But then it's also very important that you get the finance in for the business to stay alive and keep growing and keep scaling up. So balancing that time between fundraising, business development and innovating. I think that is quite a hard thing. And I hope we fared well. But we can do better.

Ollie Collard: 42:22

Good answer. And I'm interested in a bit about the scale of the business, obviously, it was started by yourself. And you've had the support, as you said of your family in India. But what kind of size is the company here in the UK at the moment.

Unknown: 42:37

So we are spread across three locations. We are headquartered in London. And then we have a European base in Frankfurt. And we have office right now in Pune. And last year, we acquired a piece of land in Bombay. And we've started construction of envelopes first manufacturing plant. So by the end of next year, we'll be more than 50 plus people and globally across. And right now we are about 20 people working in the business across the three offices, and we are selling our products right now in 58 countries.

Ollie Collard: 43:11

Fantastic. And during that time of growing the business from yourself to a team of 50 people, I'm sure there's been some failures along that journey. Has there been one that's been kind of your favourite failure? And what was the lesson that you took from it?

Unknown: 43:29

I think across every year there is one failure, which defines that one single year. One of the last years I do remember, we worked with a much larger clientele. And when we work with larger clients, I do feel we need to go through a very stringent process of due diligence on them as well. We do want to work with every bigger client. But I do feel sometimes we get carried on that, hey, I want that big name on my deck or I want that big name to start using my material. But we don't really look at the intricate details of are they going to pay me on time? What are their supply chain processes? Is this something where a lot of other companies have suffered? And can we take lessons from that? So we have been through a few clients like that where we wished we wouldn't have done the time we wouldn't have spent the time developing the product, making the product giving them the best service make me you know delivering the product and then literally begging for money, your money and it's a horrible experience. And I think that's a great learning for me. It has been of course every client is different. You cannot generalise it but I think that's something which did take us back a little bit.

Ollie Collard: 44:50

I think big business has to make a bit of a step change. Because startups we work with startups they pay each other on time every time you know because they We understand the value of that cash flow to a small business. Whereas, you know, you're talking about doing business with big businesses. It's a whole different ballgame. You know, their standard terms might be 90 180 days, and then it comes late and you're chasing. And it's, it's not right, is it? It

Unknown: 45:16

is not. But that's how the world operates. And they don't do any business without the terms at all. But I think we were only exposed to this kind of it after a few years in the business. So the early years were very different. Now, I think the challenges of scale are very different. But these are challenges. And if we take the right steps, we wouldn't be able to navigate through them. What's

Ollie Collard: 45:39

your biggest growing pain, I assume, obviously, buying this land in Bombay, and doing the manufacturing in house is going to be a significant step change for the business. So that might be one area, but it is an area aside from that, which is the biggest challenge for you at the moment.

Unknown: 45:56

So one of the reasons why we decided to acquire this land was the supply chain of it, because today, our material across India goes through multiple locations. So the time to get it to port in Bombay, is about six weeks. So if I can get all my materials in Bombay keep them ready when a customer places an order and dispatch it within five to six days, I'm reducing about six weeks. So supply chain in India or internally itself was quite a challenge for the last first few years. Now we have a plan to navigate through that. But now if we look at the international side of it, yes, that our supply chain challenges every single month, every single week, I think I don't have one week, I can tell you where we have not had a supply chain issue. It can be as simple as the material has arrived at the port and the customer has not paid the import duty for it to be cleared, the charges are back to us. Last year, I remember we shipped about a few containers to Hamburg port. And at that same time, this was April, the war in Europe in Eastern Europe was very fresh. And it had created a huge supply chain crisis at all the ports it was, you know, delays, they didn't have the manpower or they were too busy. And that created about we had a huge penalty from the port because one we didn't get a train line to move the material from Hamburg, to interiors of Germany. And the port material was lying on the port. So supply chain is every year, every week, every day challenge. And the only way we can do is good communication with customers and having our contracts very tight so that we protect our assets every time when some external factors are driving our losses. And

Ollie Collard: 47:37

that's the point, isn't it? Sometimes it's things that are completely out of your control that you couldn't have planned for the Suez Canal. I don't know if that affected you. And yeah, it's

Unknown: 47:47

right now, for every container, we used to pay a certain amount of insurance, the insurance cost has gone up because all our goods come from the wire, the Suez Canal on the Red Sea. And there's some issues going on right now. And we need to pay a higher price. So supply chain, yes, it's a big challenge. And I think you have to accept it as a product business. Wanting to work internationally, I think we have to take it as part of our business and just be better at it. There is no way you can complain about it. If you want to sell to a customer in Africa, you have to have supply chain flexibility.

Ollie Collard: 48:25

Building a business can be all consuming Kishore. What's one sacrifice that you've made either consciously or subconsciously.

Unknown: 48:35

being away from family. I love my family. And I love spending time with my family. And I'm the only one here living her and all my families back home in India. And we are a very closed family. So I think that is one sacrifice. I do feel I think it's the biggest one. But now by making my factory in India, I got a chance to visit them quite often. So it's great, very strategic

Ollie Collard: 49:00

of you there. And it makes complete sense as well. And I guess when you originally came out here The plan was to learn and educate and go back to India wasn't it but that didn't quite work out. That didn't work out for this day. Which I'm sure your family are definitely happy about very

Unknown: 49:17

proud of what we've been able to do. And there's a lot of love and support, always

Ollie Collard: 49:22

amazed think, what are some of the differences because you're doing business across three different continents as you say, what are the what are the cultural differences in terms of doing business?

Unknown: 49:33

So today 40% of our market is Europe. The rest would be Africa, a little bit of Middle East, and Australasia. Something new we have been doing since 2021. So the last two years. Each market is very different. Each country is very different. Each region of a country is very different. All the way from like my early years, I suppose that a lot of Africa. We got a lot of traction in 2017 at In, in Africa itself, and the east and the west work very differently to now when we look at Europe, the western parts of Europe is very tickbox heavy. And the Eastern European is yes, tick box, but the decisions are far more quicker. So to get a clientele in legislate Hungary to Poland, or Greece, it would take us, let's say six to nine months. But the same in Western Europe, like France, Belgium, UK, or even Germany, would take 12 to 18 months. So the decision taking is a lot more different. That's one very diff definite difference I can feel after decision making. It's also the thoroughness required for due diligence from the customers. And so different customers have the different approach of going into the detail of understanding the technology, or making sure no errors are there, when they're going to be putting some money or investing some capital into trying new product or a new material. And communication. I think these three factors are very different in multiple parts of the world.

Ollie Collard: 51:10

Because sure, you definitely got your work cut out there in terms of all of the different cultural differences in all the regions that you're operating in, it must be a bit of a minefield at times. So hats off to you they're

Unknown: 51:25

learning to work with different cultures, countries markets is something that so many small businesses overlook. I think many businesses I see think that all they need is the product market fit, and then it can be adapted easily. But listening to crucial highlight some of the big challenges that may arise. So I think it's so important to be conscious about what it takes to diversify. And that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to know the specific challenges that are going to occur when you enter a new sector Country region. However, I think it is really important to understand when you are doing your business planning, when you're determining your business strategies, that there are going to be unforeseen circumstances, and there are going to be new challenges, it's going to take new investment if you are looking to diversify or enter a new market.

Ollie Collard: 52:22

Yeah, 100% Berkey. And I think what you don't want to do is try and run before you're walking. So I think diversification really has to come at the right stage in the business's journey. Because if you try and diversify too early, you're going to lose focus, you're going to dilute your offering. So what I would say is do for one thing very well, and then look to expand from there. The Department for International trades used to have these funded missions where they take out businesses looking to expand into new regions, and get them exposure over there and let them learn about the market. I think the funding for that has been cut at present, which is a real shame, because it provides invaluable insights for founders looking to expand on an international basis. But I'm sure we're like these things funding goes in cycles. So I'm sure it will be coming back and potentially a new guy. So I think if you're looking to diversify into new regions, do contact your local Department for International Trade about what they can do to help you.

Unknown: 53:24

Yes, we definitely took advantage of that when we were in the education sector going out to Southeast Asia, and getting to be part of different events, meet different businesses out there meet different potential clients out there, it was very valuable. And like you said, I think the there is definitely less funding at the moment. But there are different opportunities to do this too. So they it's always worth keeping an eye on both the kind of more general funding, places like the British Council will support businesses. But I believe when we did it, it was a very sector specific thing as well. So definitely worth keeping an eye on that. One of the other things I thought was really interesting thinking about focusing and what it takes to go into into new sectors, and develop new products is when she was talking about the focus on protein powders, for example. So I think this is a really great example of being incredibly specific and incredibly focused, but also generating a whole new opportunity. And so doing that through research thinking about where is there something that he's getting manufactured all the time. And of course now because she's been in this for eight years, he's probably knows the manufacturer as well. He understands what they're what's going on where there is a good market opportunity, and then really putting that focus on the one thing to make sure that that product is really, really good. And I loved that example because I thought that was just a really good answer. trouble for other entrepreneurs to hear as well, in terms of how directed you can be, in terms of your focus.

Ollie Collard: 55:07

Yeah. And also what I'd say is make sure that you're fully aware of all the resources that you need at your disposal to take advantage of that opportunity. Because, like life and business, everything is a trade off and an opportunity costs potentially. So it's thinking about what you could do with the resources at your disposal.

Unknown: 55:26

Yeah, and sometimes we don't know what those resources are going to be, especially early on. And I think this was very interesting to hear, cuz she will talk about supply chain management, and especially in different regions, as well, and what that looks like, especially once you're exporting, and you've got to think about getting fined for having things left at a port, you know, these kinds of things are really important to know. So if you're trying to do too much all at once, and you're trying to do that with fairly limited startup resources, that money is going to disappear straightaway, you're going to find yourself with more problems and you can deal with. So again, focusing on one thing at a time and doing it really, really well and getting to know it and becoming an expert in that space. And then you can apply that as you grow the business. The other thing I thought was incredibly helpful for Kishore to flag was this idea that big names aren't always the best customers, I think we all have this desire to be like, Oh, I'm working for so and so that everybody else has heard of, and it's you know, it sounds like a really good name. And we think they're going to pay us loads of money, because they're a big corporate, and it's gonna be great because they have endless resources or whatever it might be. And actually, this is where issues can come in these big customers can be really quite difficult to work with whether it is payment terms, or whether it's just kind of the people within those organisations, whether it's because they actually really don't, they don't need to have that empathy built in, perhaps to what they're doing in terms of understanding you as a startup, or perhaps even being bought into the real value that you're offering in your business. And so I'm intrigued to just dig in a little bit more as to why do you think we always want to work with these big names? I

Ollie Collard: 57:14

think it is that, you know, being attracted to the glitzy big name that you can put on your website. But in practice, in practical terms, often it doesn't work out, as well, as you hope and expect. I think, you know, both of us working with startups, we know that it's inherently risky and small businesses. But what I take comfort in is that startups and small businesses, they know the struggle, they pay you on time they get it, they understand cash flow, whereas big corporates, you know, we're big, you know, 90 180 day, payment terms just aren't on the same page. Sometimes. Obviously, I'm over generalising here. But there's a there's a conflict of I think values there. And I would say if you're able to do something on a smaller scale with a smaller client, often, that is a better way forward. Yeah.

Unknown: 58:04

And I think as a small business, there is some value. I mean, when we talk to other customers, when we're talking to investors, for example, there is a little bit of like, Oh, interesting, like you're working with these, this big name, we recognise that name. There's some kind of validation there. But something that, that I've worked on with some of the businesses I've worked with, it's also thinking about how, again, can we be really conscious about how we build this into our strategy. So if we know that bigger businesses are going to be certainly when we talk about payment terms, it might be more challenging, they also may not be able to co create as much with you, you've got to fit in their boxes, instead of being able to, you know, maybe create together, it's being aware of that being aware of the role it plays within your strategy. So doing something quite hybrid can be helpful as well, where you know that perhaps you've got some of those bigger businesses in there, that over time, are probably going to become cash, cows, if you can build some really good relationships. But perhaps they're not good for the quick turnaround for the innovation for other aspects of what you want. And recognise that like they might be difficult in many ways. So I think it's about being conscious and about building into your strategy of those challenges that may come up with them. Yeah, I

Ollie Collard: 59:25

think you said it perfectly there. It's just being aware that you're probably playing on their terms. And if that fits into your model, and it works, then it can be a great relationship still, but it's just going into it with both eyes open. I think that's the message we want people to take away.

Unknown: 59:41

And so because she will certainly explain how he's learned these lessons, and they're now doing so much they're making it work in many different sectors. So I'm really intrigued to hear where it goes from here. I mean, I'm kind of expecting nothing short of world domination at this point. So for us, we are now focusing on building an asset business. Now that of course, a physical asset is one where we are building a manufacturing plant, we will 10 times our capacities of production of what it is today, so that we can impact more companies and more countries across the world. But a larger part of that is this is a demo, this is how we will do it. Now, the waste is I have started with the waste from India. But if I'm not wrong, there is agricultural waste across the world. And stubble burning is not just a problem, which is of India, it's a global problem. So for us, when we look at our success in the next few years, is replicating our technology in multiple parts of the world. But we can't do it alone, we need partners, we need local partners who are as passionate as ours, who want to focus on the community aspect of it, the environmental aspect of it, and then the capitalised business mindset of it. So that's something that we're very much focusing on build the facilities create the most innovative new materials, which have the best end of life and replicate that in multiple parts of the world. So it might be Australia, where we might take wheat, or it can be Canada, or South America, where there's a lot of bigass, or Eastern western parts of Africa as well. So we hope we go in, we be a company in the next few years, where we have the options to choose which markets we want to enter and with whom we want to enter and create a technology which cannot be replicated by someone.

Ollie Collard: 1:01:28

One of the key parts of founded and grounded is asking our featured entrepreneurs to distil down just one piece of advice that you'd pass on to a fellow founder. What would that one piece of advice be?

Unknown: 1:01:40

I think every hour is different. And every hour, your mood changes quite a bit. It is very important to not get distracted to your long term goal or get distracted to your other parts of the day of the work like the work in the day. By some small, medium or large issues, I do feel having that balance of doing different things. And keeping that energy high and completely positive is very important. Like you can have a very bad start to the morning. But if you keep will be better, you can achieve quite a bit of things. So that means it took me time to understand this to the fullest. But I hope I get better. And meditation definitely helps.

Ollie Collard: 1:02:22

So I'm just gonna ask how do you stop yourself getting distracted,

Unknown: 1:02:26

I meditate quite a bit. And every time I want to move to a new thought, I just close my eyes and deep breath five times. Hold it four times, and push it up four times. Plus, I

Ollie Collard: 1:02:40

think it can have massive benefits for founders and people in general if they do take themselves there. But some people are maybe not sure how to start or what to do or feel a bit silly doing it. So your advice again, hold

Unknown: 1:02:53

your breath. And think about what you've got to now and what you can get to small setbacks don't define your future. Where

Ollie Collard: 1:03:01

can people find out a bit more about Enzo papen you personally online.

Unknown: 1:03:08

So we have a very active and engaging social media now, in the last few months we've been really working hard to optimise. So social media, you can follow us on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and now x envoy puppets across everywhere e n d o PAP and a little bit me are more active on LinkedIn. So feel free to hit me up if you want to have a conversation. Always happy to

Ollie Collard: 1:03:34

fantastic well it's been an absolute pleasure talking with you this afternoon. So thank you so much for your time and insights.

Unknown: 1:03:40

Thank you so much Ollie for inviting Always a pleasure. Ali, I was right because you will is definitely intending to have world domination. But in a good way not not in a bad way. If world domination is all about benefiting communities and the environment, then that's what they are after.

Ollie Collard: 1:04:00

Yeah, often when you say the phrase world domination you think of these bad political or corrupt business people but if world domination is in consumers hands, I would helpfully hand over everything to him to let him run the world.

Unknown: 1:04:14

Please can we start redefining world domination towards something that is actually beneficial and caring for our planet and our people as opposed to the other way round? That would be absolutely wonderful. So something I've been wondering about as we've listened to this whole interview is how because your manages to make a complex business sound so simple. And it seems like one of his secrets is meditation. Do you meditate, Ali?

Ollie Collard: 1:04:45

Do you know I try. I am on a bit of a journey with it. So I've got the car map. I try and do it before we go to bed. Sometimes doesn't happen but yeah, I'm on a journey. I can definitely see the benefits of it. I'm so I'd say I'm a novice. But I can Yeah, I can start to see some of the rewards from it. And I think, like anything, it's a journey isn't that you go on. But yeah, I'm definitely making a conscious effort to make it part of my sort of daily habits. What about you, Becky? Well,

Unknown: 1:05:16

I've gone through different phases. And I've gone through phases where I've kind of really been like, I have to meditate for X number of minutes. And that means something very specific, you know, every day, or I've got to do some very specific journaling, and that kind of thing. And I don't really do any of that anymore. Occasionally, but not all of the time, and not on a regular basis. But I really liked something that because she'll said, and this is actually what I do. And I think it's very helpful, which is, it doesn't have to be anything more than just like stilling yourself for a second, and thinking about, where am I now? Where do I want to go? And I think this idea of just kind of trying to find these tiny moments of calm and tiny moments of coming back to yourself, is the most realistic way for me at the moment, I've got lots on and it's like just scheduling in even if it is 10 minutes at the beginning of the day, well, that's 10 minutes, I'm going to be late for a train or 10 minutes, I'm going to be late for a meeting, you know. So I think that that idea of being able to just take that moment in time, and sort of go where am I like centre yourself in that moment, and just see what comes to you if you ask yourself some questions about what's going on in your life. So I would say that that's the sort of meditation I'm doing more of at the moment. And then he also talks about the breathing exercises that I think can really help. So I do actually do breathing exercises, as well. And that is in my routine. So again, what was your recommended, which was about deep breaths, deep breath in, hold it, and then push it out and, and hold it. So just having those moments with your breath, I think are another thing that we can do as founders, to bring ourselves just back to to ourselves to be grounded to be more centred, because that's when our strategic brain takes over. I think we talked earlier about, you know, there's something inherent in kachelle, to be able to be have that really strong strategic brain to be able to see the bigger picture. Right, I think one way that many of us can develop that is to take those moments, and to allow ourselves to step back. And that gives us some perspective, which if we're always just in the doing, if we're always just running around, we can get very caught up with that. And then that gets in the way of us being able to see the bigger picture.

Ollie Collard: 1:07:45

Yeah, and it ties back quite nicely in terms of when we're talking about self care at the beginning of the episode. And I think something that is actually so simple and doesn't take a huge amount of time, like, just try and make some time for it. I mean, if it's working for sure, then I'm definitely going to give it a try. And I think, you know, breath work is a bit of a hot topic at the moment. But I think if it makes it sound so simple and easy, then I'm definitely going to take it as a takeaway from myself.

Unknown: 1:08:13

Because she was everybody's new role model. Now, by the sounds of things. He's got compassion for self compassion for the people he's working with, and compassion for the planet. And that's really, I guess, the themes that, that run through this whole episode and run through his whole business. And that's why it's able to be successful. So if you're interested in checking out what mo pepper doing, or getting to know, because you're better check out those links that he talked about in the episode. Ali, what are people saying about our last episode? So Eric from rival, we

Ollie Collard: 1:08:52

had some really interesting feedback to Eric's episode, James Yuan, founder of orca said, Oh, this sounds like a good and prepare for the marathon. Entrepreneurship is a journey of endurance, build emotional and psychological resilience. And he was a quote from Eric and he said, such great advice that really looking forward to giving this one a listen. We also had some feedback from Eric's that work in terms of the episode, Eric, I have to say, was very candid about the very honest nature of running a business. And obviously, we really thank him for doing that, because that's why this show actually exists. So Mark Headley said, as a new co founder, you're not selling it to me, mate. All I want to hear about is rainbows and unicorns. Really, definitely give this episode a listen and get some insights from your journey. And I know you sort of came back on that as well, Becky? Yeah, in terms of those comments. Yeah,

Unknown: 1:09:55

I think that it's part of what we're doing is trying not to sugarcoat I write and I actually kind of enjoyed the comments in the sense of it was, it was kind of tongue in cheek. And yeah, and I think that that's actually it's been a bit of a, something that you and I have been talking about a little bit now is this idea of like having some more fun with it. So of course, founded and grounded is about getting these stories out there because we want to de mystify entrepreneurship, for the good. And for the bad. I think there's a lot of issues that come from the fact that we, you know, when there's this pretence that it's this special rainbows and unicorns kind of journey. And, and the flip side of it, too, I think, you know, if we only focus on the negative things, that's not right, either. This is a reality that millions of people are living it as an entrepreneur, and that looks like many different things, and it has its challenges. And if we're honest about it, then we can be a community together working through those challenges. And if we can then add a little bit of fun and play into that too, then great, because it's, yeah, this, these, this, the lives that we're living, right, this is the choices that we've made. And exactly, yeah, let's throw ourselves into it. But do it with our eyes open 100%. You

Ollie Collard: 1:11:15

know, even in the UK, there's 5.7 million small business owners. So that is a huge proportion of our population. And this is why this exists is to say learn from early stage founders, but giving all of the the upside but also showing the downside along the way as well. Thanks

Unknown: 1:11:36

for that Ollie. And so Who have we got coming up next episode.

Ollie Collard: 1:11:42

So we've got a great founder called Felix, who's running an impact business again, is called Share Z. Essentially, in a nutshell, it's an Airbnb type model for community spaces.

Unknown: 1:11:54

Excellent. I'm looking forward to hearing that interview. Thank you everyone for listening. If you like what you've heard, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts. And don't forget that there's a big selection of previous episodes just search founded and grounded on your favourite podcast player. Thank you for listening to find it in grounded with Ollie collard and Dr. Becky sage. Don't forget to press that follow button to help us to grow the show.