Dr. Steven Radowitz completed his MD at Chicago Medical School, worked in general medicine & HIV/AIDS units & was Medical Director of an alcohol & opioid detox & treatment unit.
His traditional path was disrupted after seeing remarkable & measurable medical outcomes with patients who got psychedelic treatment. He has since refocused his practice & joined Nushama, a ketamine treatment clinic in Manhattan.
In this episode, you’ll hear how to choose a ketamine clinic & real patient results. We also discuss whether it’s clinical or mystical, therapy loops vs real progress & the truth about Mattthew Perry’s death.
If you like this episode, you’ll also like episode 160: COULD MAGIC MUSHROOMS CURE ADDICTION?
Request to join my private Facebook group to give your opinion & participate in giveaways https://www.facebook.com/groups/mfrcuriousinsiders/
Guest: https://www.instagram.com/nushamawellness/ | https://www.facebook.com/nushamawellness | https://twitter.com/nushamawellness | https://www.linkedin.com/company/nushama/ | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuifHRBnRfr6fT8_tEElBfw
Host: https://www.meredithforreal.com/ | https://www.instagram.com/meredithforreal/ | meredith@meredithforreal.com | https://www.youtube.com/meredithforreal | https://www.facebook.com/meredithforrealthecuriousintrovert
Sponsors: https://www.jordanharbinger.com/starterpacks/ | https://uwf.edu/university-advancement/departments/historic-trust/ | https://www.ensec.net/
Dr. Steven Radowitz completed his MD at Chicago Medical School, worked in general medicine & HIV/AIDS units & was Medical Director of an alcohol & opioid detox & treatment unit.
His traditional path was disrupted after seeing remarkable & measurable medical outcomes with patients who got psychedelic treatment. He has since refocused his practice & joined Nushama, a ketamine treatment clinic in Manhattan.
In this episode, you’ll hear how to choose a ketamine clinic & real patient results. We also discuss whether it’s clinical or mystical, therapy loops vs real progress & the truth about Mattthew Perry’s death.
If you like this episode, you’ll also like episode 160: COULD MAGIC MUSHROOMS CURE ADDICTION?
Request to join my private Facebook group to give your opinion & participate in giveaways https://www.facebook.com/groups/mfrcuriousinsiders/
Guest: https://www.instagram.com/nushamawellness/ | https://www.facebook.com/nushamawellness | https://twitter.com/nushamawellness | https://www.linkedin.com/company/nushama/ | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuifHRBnRfr6fT8_tEElBfw
Host: https://www.meredithforreal.com/ | https://www.instagram.com/meredithforreal/ | meredith@meredithforreal.com | https://www.youtube.com/meredithforreal | https://www.facebook.com/meredithforrealthecuriousintrovert
Sponsors: https://www.jordanharbinger.com/starterpacks/ | https://uwf.edu/university-advancement/departments/historic-trust/ | https://www.ensec.net/
This is Meredith for real, the curious introvert and I'm Meredith here, we explore the taboo less obvious and paradoxical aspects of society, questions that you think, but don't ask questions. Any nuanced answers, not just Google results. These are the conversations you thought you'd never get to have and the goal to inspire curiosity over judgment. Each episode is different. So bring your add and your earbuds and have a look around. This was an episode. I wasn't that sure about making, to be honest, but after polling those of you in my private Facebook group, I decided to move forward with it. You can find that group by the way, on Facebook, obviously By searching MFR, curious insiders. There's a link in the episode description too, But ketamine treatment is something I knew nothing about. I expected my guests to be kind of a ketamine pusher, but as you'll hear, he had a very grounded approach and we had a really beautiful conversation that included. Practical aspects like the different ways that ketamine is administered and what to look for in a good clinic, as well as more I'll call it Wu aspects. Of ketamine like it's psychedelic personality and therapy loops versus real progress. If you end up liking this episode, you'll also like the one I did with the university of Alabama Birmingham, a researcher studying magic mushrooms as a cure for addiction that's episode one 60. All right, friends. Keep it curious.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:Quality mental health has become a higher priority in recent years, but along with increased effort. Has come increased frustration as many have found traditional routes to wellness, ineffective or short lived. Some have resigned to their depression, anxiety, PTSD, or addiction as chronic companions for life, while others have turned to psychedelic modalities. But how do you get professional treatment when the medicine's illegal? Enter ketamine. My next guest completed his MD at Chicago Medical School. He's worked in general medicine, in HIV AIDS units, and was medical director of an alcohol and opioid detox and treatment unit. His traditional path was disrupted after seeing remarkable and measurable medical outcomes with patients who got psychedelic treatment. He has since refocused his practice and joined New Shama, a ketamine treatment clinic in Manhattan. Today he's going to unpack the stories and stats of ketamine therapy. Is it safe? Who should use it? And what is it working for? Digging deep, integrating and upgrading, humanizing medicine, Dr. Steven Radowitz. I'm so glad you're here.
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:thank you for having me.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:So I feel like we should kind of start with some basics because until really recently I at least, I mean, and I could have my head in the sand, I had no idea what ketamine was or like who was using it and why. So where does ketamine come from? How long has it been around?
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:Yeah, so ketamine has been, was approved, as an anesthetic agent back in the late 1960s. it was unusual in that it was incredibly safe. It didn't, you know, affect people's respiratory drive. It didn't affect people's cardiac or heart function. Didn't even raise the blood pressure, didn't lower it, which was unusually safe for an anesthetic agent. And it, you know, didn't affect their gag reflex, so it was unusually safe. And it was used for many years, as that. It's actually World Health Organization's list of essential, compounds or drugs that every country should have significant stockpiles of in case of emergencies. It was used in the Vietnam War. Actually, troops would have vials of it on them. If another troop member or another, soldier was injured in the field, they would use it, they would self administer, to get them to decrease their pain and to decrease their anxiety to get them to help. because of its safety, it's been used for many years. And then, you know, currently it's also, used in emergency rooms, and the back of an ambulance in case, you know, a child, should they need, pain control and anti anxiety medication, it's used for pediatrics as well. So it's, an unusually safe medication. And it was only in the last few years that we've been using it, for treatment resistant mood disorders.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:Wow, that's so interesting. so is it synthetic entirely or is it from a plant and then we made it synthetic?
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:So it is synthetic, but there it is found in nature. There isn't actually an amoeba. Don't ask me that. It's a long name amoeba. It is made
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:I want to know how did they figure that
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:I have no
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:they're walking in the forest. They're like, you know what? I think I'm going to snack on this amoeba. I feel great.
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:exactly. Yeah, no, they did. So it is, found in nature, but it's generally, it's, it's a, it's a synthetically created, compound.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:So it's an off label use kind of like how, Viagra was for heart and then it became for
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:Exactly. Well, actually it was approved, so Viagra was approved for you. But yeah, most of the medications actually in psychiatry, probably about 40%, 30 to 40% of medications are used for off-label purposes. So, The drug companies go in and they apply for a, approval for a specific indication. And then as we, you know, use it in real world settings, we find out it's could be used for many other settings. And you know, obviously to do the studies to get other, indications, it'd be very, very expensive. So, it's not unusual that we use a lot of medications off label.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:Is it considered a psychedelic drug?
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:I mean, anyone who's done it, you know, in a proper setting, you know, with IV, yes, it is a psychedelic drug. It is, it does affect similar receptors in the brain to things like psilocybin, LSD. Not completely, but similar. Especially these serotonin type receptors. So it does induce a psychedelic type effect. A little bit different from those other agents, in that, you know, really with only with an eye mask, earphones, the music really drives the experience. But, without the eye mask, if you take off the eye mask and earphones, your disruption of reality comes back to normal. So,
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:Oh, interesting. Interesting. That is unusual because I was going to ask you about its psychedelic personality, if you will, because like they say MDMA is a heart opener, right? And then, ayahuasca is mother ayahuasca. She gives you what you need, not what you want. And I was going to ask you if it had like a particular personality.
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:You know, it's very specific in its ego lytic, I call it ego lytic, or ego dissociating, properties. It's unusual. it gets you out of your sense of self and lets you step outside. It's almost like very deep meditation. You could reach similar states, I think, like this. Tibetan monks and different types of people who can go into a very deep states of meditation where they really dissociate. They go into what we call like very deep states of mindfulness. It brings you into those states very similar to that and it's very specific. So I would say its personality is, is its specificity in this ego dissociation. And when you start to sort of dim the effects of this sort of brain process, the way we process, the way we see the world, we get to appreciate what is from a very, more of an innate. Soulful or intuitive, view of reality.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:It's taken me a while to understand exactly what. Ego means when we talk about psychedelics and in the world of yoga and meditation, can you explain how you explain it to patients who are like, I don't know, man, I'm addicted to cocaine. I'm depressed. I got PTSD. What the hell is an ego?
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:I mean an ego is a very limited sense of how we see the world, you know, it's a program I see the brain the machine is almost like an AI a very very sophisticated Computer that's here to make sure that we exist in this world That's its only job is our existence our physical existence and it does so by trying to predict any future danger So when Something is in front of us. We have to determine whether this is safe or not safe and how we want to respond or react to it and how that gets programmed is based on our past experiences, you know, sort of a traumatic event as a child will get sort of imprinted in our brain. and we will see the world through those past events. So that's part of the ego. It's this sort of there to make sure that we stay safe. It's our intellect. It's our intelligence in a certain way, but then there's a deeper part of ourselves. That's more expansive. it's more creative, you know, anyone who's had a very creative, especially creative or artistic people will always sort of, or writers, you know, people who write often find that. You know, they call it like they're thinking too much. You have a writer's block. It's because they're thinking too much, but then they go off. They'll go walk in nature. They'll do something to sort of distract themselves. And suddenly like, it's almost like a download, you know, of wisdom. And that's, that's not the ego. That's so the ego sometimes holds us back from that. We need both in this world, but it's our, it's a more of a creative part of ourselves. That's a way that we can see the world in more open ways, not based on what happened to me in the past, but where I am today and how I choose to see. the world or whatever is in front of me. it's like, someone sees a tree in front of them, you know, and some people say, Oh my God, this beautiful tree. That's taking all this carbon dioxide and creating oxygen. And I mean, this is an amazing thing. Another person say, Hey, this thing could follow me. This is a dangerous tree. Let's cut it down before it falls on me, and 10 different people see that based on their life, and how they were sort of programmed throughout their childhood. Based on their parental, the way their parents responded to things. That's the ego. That's the ego. You know, and the soul, or the intuitive part of ourselves, sees it for whatever it is. It doesn't have to label it. It just is. You know, does that make
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:Oh, that's so that's a really good way to explain it. It reminds me of flow a little bit. Like when you're in flow. ideas come to you, you stay focused, there's less resistance around, I don't know, it seems like there's less resistance externally and internally. For ketamine, do you feel like it's a mystical experience? I had my first well, first psilocybin experience, I think it's been two years now. And I would definitely describe it as mystical. Like there was symbolism that I didn't know about and I had a guide and he's like, later, he was like, Oh, these are, The symbols all have this in common. Maybe that will be helpful in your integration process, da da da da. But it was mystical. Is ketamine a little bit more on the clinical end of that?
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:It's pretty mystical. we have a certain protocol and we start off at a lower dose. The lower dose is more, almost like MDMA. It has a little bit more hard opener and it's almost like taking a dimmer switch to the ego and then gradually, if I dim it too much all at once, it's a little bit, it'll be jarring for us once we start you know, removing, the usual bounds by which, or the filters by which we see this reality. So as we escalate the dose, you get more into these sort of mystical ways of seeing the world. The mystical is more of a, I see it as a science in a way that we don't have the know how to understand at this point. If you read about quantum physics, let's say, which is, you know, sort of the
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:like spooky
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:spooky particles. that's what it is. That's mystical. But you know, we have a science to explain it, although we can't understand it fully in our current form. But we understand it on a, from a scientific standpoint. So it's the same thing is that it does get mystical but the point of, I think, psychedelic experience is not always to have messages. It's also sometimes to accept. Not understanding, so you have these wondrous things that seem much more, real almost than what we're currently witnessing. And we're more, almost more conscious than we are right now in these ketamine experiences. But sometimes you just can't make sense of it. And the same thing in real life, you know, sometimes things happen to us, some traumatic event. The more we try and understand why this person did this to me, it can take us down into loops that can really get us stuck. Sometimes we just have to step back and say, okay, I'll never understand why that person did this to me. They probably will hurt themselves and we can go into the whole thing. But what we can ask is just lurk at it and take it for what it is and learn from it and say, Hey, how could this, this situation that was presented to me, help me? How can I become more wise from it, grow from it, accept it for what it is, remove the jewelry, the, the bit of wisdom within it, and then let go. You know, and, I think there's a lot of help, and that's where, these experiences really help people.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:I can start to see where the therapy comes into it, like where the assisted part, because it's not just the colors, it's like, okay, the unpacking. I had a question come in from my private Facebook group, and she asks, what is the difference between ketamine as therapy versus a party drug?
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:So, like we said, it's all about the dose. You know, ketamine's an interesting drug, because at different doses and different routes of administration, it's a completely different experience. You know, in the party scene, in the recreational scene, it's often inhaled. and in those cases, it can be. It could be, it could be no, like a nasal spray. It's inhaled through the nose, like almost like it can come as a powder or as a liquid. And, it's usually done as a powder, recreationally, and people get this sort of jolt. And in lower doses it can be euphoric and it can be addictive in lower doses. some people go into these deep states, they take a little bit too much, and they go into what's called the, K hole. Ka hole is just taking too much all at once. being standing up on a dance floor and going into a very deep dissociative state. It's not very comfortable. But when you give it in an IV set, like intravenous, so we give it to the vein and it's slowly infused gradually over an hour period in that setting, you ease into it. Number one, it's very calm. You're sitting in a chair with the music and you're an eye mask and, you know, medical staff around you, you feel safe and you're able to get, let go into it. That's a more clinical setting. And then with integration, we have people who talk to you before to prepare you for what comes up. And then, afterwards to help make sense of what you experienced, that becomes more clinical and it can be very, very helpful in that setting. Also, it's, you know, it is spread out over an hour, so it's a gradual. And a very controlled infusion over an hour. So that has more clinical effects rather than taking a big jolt of it through the nose all at once on the dance floor. It's all about the set and setting. You hear people talk about set and setting a lot in psychedelics. And set refers to mindset. Like what do you want to get out of this? What are you bringing into this? So if you're on a dance floor just wanting to have fun and whatever, that's, that's your mindset you're bringing into it. It's not going to be very clinical, but when you come in here trying to work on something, trying to work on yourself, you know, trying to grow personally and spiritually and whatnot, it's a totally different experience. And then you bring that in and then, and then the, the setting is the environment in which you do it. So on the dance floor versus doing it in a clinical, you know, or even in a, you know, some other psychedelics are done. like ayahuasca and psilocybin might be done in a forest or with shamans and whatnot. Obviously there's a lot of intentionality put into it, so it's a very different experience and a mindful experience, so. That's the difference between the two.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:Yeah, there's a lot of different, like you said, ayahuasca and psilocybin, what do you feel like makes ketamine different from other psychedelic assisted therapies?
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:you know, besides the fact that it's legal, so that's a big deal. But that doesn't mean, yeah, no, I'm not saying that everything legal, those things can be very helpful. I personally have tried those as well. I think they can be very helpful when done in the right settings. You have to be careful where you're doing it. Same thing with ketamine, even in a clinical setting, they're not all the same. So you have to make sure you're going to someone who you trust And so, I think like ayahuasca, psilocybin, they're just different, almost like different chemical keys to the ego, different ways of reducing the ego in different ways. I think they all have their own. natural intelligence, and they can help you in different ways. And I think in the future when these things become legal, likely they will, I think there might be a way when you treat people, it might be, a series or different types of treatment, protocols that might involve mushrooms, ketamine. even ayahuasca or ibogaine or with some of these other things. So, I think they all are beautiful, but it really, you have to have respect for these things, including ketamine. It's not something, to take lightly and I've done them and it's, could be very humbling and could destabilizing if not done in a place where you feel safe. I think that's very important.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:Yeah. I talked with a, psilocybin coach, and he was saying sometimes after these experiences, it can be, as you said, unsettling because you go back to a world which is very much ingrained in whatever ego version of life you had previously been living in. And so that high contrast can be upsetting.
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:Right, I mean it's all about letting go, all of these things, it's all about letting go, letting go of control, and it's hard, letting go of the way we see the world, which can be very limiting, like we talked about the ego, it gets programmed when we're kids, so if you have a traumatic event as a child, You know, the kids program. It's almost like an operating system. We haven't updated since we've been a kid. So we're still seeing the world through that event as a child. But where we are today is that it's not valid anymore. Like we update our computer, we update our iPhone, we don't update this AI system. And, you know, it can be very limiting to see, you know, the world through that. So I think, all these psychedelics are here to sort of almost open up the neural pathways, these connections. in our brain, that, limit or filter the way we see the world and hopefully open it up in a good way that we call, you hear about this neuroplastic process. So there's these sort of connections between our memories and our emotions. Right and they're there to sort of again to protect some I'm repeating myself again But you know and you know as a child, let's say you go and you run into a table You hurt yourself as a child. So that memory of you running into the table gets put into our memory It's connected to the pain that you felt and the emotion related to the pain you felt through It's called a default mode network, you know in very simplistic terms, but there's a relay station between that memory and the emotion. So next time you see the table, your brain predicts that if I continue running into the table, I'm going to get hurt. So it triggers a little emotion, gets me to stop running, which makes sense, right? but sometimes an emotional parent called or, you know, someone's bullied in school, That also gets programmed into a place of unsafety. And we need our, you know, especially our adults, our, grownups to protect us. infants cannot survive, or children cannot survive without an adult to take care of them. So that also gets programmed. So if we don't feel like our adults are there to protect us, we also go into this sort of safety mode. We go start to wall ourselves in to protect ourselves. But as we get older, you know, obviously we don't need those adults because we're an adult now, but we still, that's still really entrenched in the wiring. So the ketamine and all these other psychedelics open up the wiring system between our memories and our emotions and allow it to settle in new ways. And that's the point. So it's a sort of neuroplastic processor and we can always change that it takes work And it's not just the psychedelics. Also the psychedelics are one tool We also need to put other things into play where from meditation yoga Learning some type of spiritual wisdom exercise, you know There's many other aftercare modalities to put into play the way you eat the way you see food All these things are very important not only the ketamine or other psychedelics,
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:It's interesting what you're describing as self care. You know, when you said, we need adults to be right so that they can take care of the kids. And I thought, Oh gosh, yeah, that's, that's self care, like that's put the oxygen mask on yourself. But I never really equated self care with psychedelics. So that's a new fun thought for me. what disorders have you seen ketamine successfully treat in your
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:yeah, so we, treat generally treatment resistant mood disorders. So you know, depression, severe entrenched depression, usually from some type of traumatic, probably about 90 percent of the people who come in to see us, have, some type of really difficult life event, usually as children that was never properly processed. So, you know, treatment resistant depression, anxiety. which is all a continuum anyways, we use these terms, but they're all sort of one in the same PTSD. you know, I don't really believe in these labels to be honest with you. I think they're just different ways of processing trauma. Addiction is a big one. We see a lot, it's probably actually some of our best results are people who, use substances to help them cope. eating disorders, especially binge purge, also another tool that people use to control their life. I think people use food, use, social media addiction, sex addiction, pornography addiction, things like that. even cigarettes, marijuana, like any type of drug addiction works really, really well for.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:It sounds like any unwanted behavior in general.
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:It's giving you choice. It's just, it's letting you step outside, let go and give you free will to choose how you want to live your life.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:Can you think of any particular patient that you, when you think of a success story of your clinic comes to mind that you're able to share?
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:Yeah, I had this one guy, really, really, really came in, I mean horribly depressed, suicidal. The only thing that kept him alive was he had full custody of his child. and, his wife was not a very, you know, they had a very, very, very difficult divorce. She had a lot of mental health issues herself and his biggest fear was if he killed himself, his daughter would have to go back to his ex wife and it horrified him. And he came in and in the journey, he killed himself in his journey and he was watching, he was at his funeral. Watching his daughter go back to his ex wife and he was screaming. I mean, it was really, it was a while ago and it was one of the most intense experiences. I mean, I've had a few since then, but we really, he was hitting himself. He was so angry at himself, vicious. And we kept him going. you know, we held him, I lowered his drip a little, but I knew he needed to go through this and we, really helped him through it And afterwards he, He was just cute. He never was suicidal again afterwards. He really processed that and he was able to witness what it was, you know, that event and it really helped him. So that was a major, that was a big success story. He was never suicidal again after that. We've had people with severe alcohol addictions really come to us and, and this is a common one. We have an alcohol addiction treatment program as well. where people feel like they just, they tell us that they just feel that the alcohol doesn't serve them anymore. When you're more in a line with yourself, you don't feel like you have to escape it. and psychedelics is the antithesis of alcohol. The antithesis is also, you know, marijuana to some extent, overuse of marijuana, anything that makes you escape. Because with, psychedelics, you're not escaping. Actually, you're more alert, you're more conscious, you're more in yourself, your true self than anything. So when you go into those states, the thought of, going back further into the ego in a certain way seems to not make sense. And so, that's a big one. We've had a woman, She also had a very, very traumatic came from a very religious, background. She was a very amazing painter, and she would paint these hyper realistic pictures of religious figures and what not. And, after her third one treatment. She was just very agitated. She was like, what are you doing to me? She really didn't want to let go. And I calmed her down. I said, you know, it takes really three of these. They stack on, each other. And after the third one, she just had this massive breakthrough. She really let go and all her art just completely changed. she started to paint from her soul. That's how she explained it. She had no other way to explain it.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:What was her problem that she came in
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:You know, childhood, parental abuse, like a lot of parental abuse, sexual abuse. Yeah, like really, really easier. And she had a beautiful family. She had five kids, really nice husband, very, very nice life, but she couldn't even take care of her children. she was so dysregulated, and after that she's been, I keep in touch with her, and, she just became much more present with her kids, and just really got more in touch with herself. And still, you know, still work, and it doesn't take away everything, she still has to do some work on herself, but she's just been in much greater shape,
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:so if ketamine is a anesthetic, how does that help with therapy? Because when I think of the word, Dissociate. I think of, okay, when a traumatic event happens, you disassociate so that you can survive the event. And it sounds like you're going into the event in the ketamine experience, yet it's classified as a dissociative anesthetic.
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:not a proper term actually, they used the word when they were trying to market the drug. the, the wives of one of the executives came up with the term. They did, psychedelic was not a great way to, describe some of the side effects of ketamine when it was used as an anesthetic. So they came up, instead of using the word psychedelic, They came up with the word dissociate, to dissociate from the ego. So when, in psychiatry, when we use the word dissociate, we use, we talk it emotionally dissociative. So you're, you have less, connection with your emotions. You become cut off. This does just the opposite. Actually, people are very emotive. Men are the most emotive actually during these journeys. They release, they let go, they cry often. So it's, it's not a dissociative, it's an ego dissociative, but not a soul dissociative. So. Okay, I find emotions are sort of the, I use the word term or our inner self or intuitive self. you know, we communicate with ourselves to let us know when we're going a little bit too far away from who we are, when we're too attached to the ego, the emotions come in to sort of help redirect and ketamine does help with that, helps us actually get more in touch with them. I hope that may, I hope that answers the question.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:No, it totally does. Because I was getting a little confused. I was like, okay, it sounds, yeah, it is
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:It was a marketing term, that's all, yeah.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:Well, and sometimes I think it's, we forget that. Okay. Well, the English language is limited a and B just because something is. Helping people doesn't mean that there isn't marketing attached to it, right, at some level, at some point, and you said this is way back in the 60s, so obviously they didn't want to label anything psychedelic because of what was going on at that time. on the medical side, I read that it lowers brain inflammation. If that's true, could this be a protocol for people with Alzheimer's and dementia?
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:I mean, anytime you decrease stress, anxiety and get a lowering of cortisol levels, there's going to be a decrease in, any type of inflammation, whether it's in the brain or in the periphery. it allows for a neuroplastic process, so when we talk about neuroplasticity, it's like it opens up some connections in the brain, and lets brain make new connections. And even at old age, we used to think that, you know, when you had something set, after you got to a certain age, you couldn't really change these connections in the brain. We're learning that's actually not true at all. it does take a little bit more work, but the psychedelics do help, catalyze that process of, you know, sort of opening things up and letting things settle in new ways.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:Have you seen any patients been able to come off of their anxiety and depression medications?
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:Yeah, definitely a significant amount do especially benzodiazepines. There's less use of those Less use of obviously alcohol people self medicate with different substances or even over watching, you know, social media to use of SSRIs like Prozac and Lexapro and whatnot so people do lower the medications and sometimes do come off of them when possible. That's the idea Yeah
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:and with ayahuasca, and I think psilocybin, I don't remember, you cannot be on SSRIs when you take them. What's the case with
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:Yeah, so the problem with, ayahuasca, with MDMA especially, there's a serotonin release. and with psilocybin also, it's a very serotonergic type drug. It wouldn't be dangerous with, psilocybin, it just blocks the effects and some of the psychedelic and the positive effects of So people you know, are supposed to come off of, of antidepressants, especially serotonergic antidepressants, like, Lexapro, Zoloft, Paxil, you know, and even some of the other, they're called SNRIs, like Effexor, Cymbalta, things like that. but with ketamine, you do not. ketamine doesn't cause a release of serotonin. It does affect some of the serotonin receptors in different ways, but does not cause a release, so it's, it can, and most of our clients here who come in are on, antidepressants of some sort.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:I would imagine that would be the case, considering kind of the desired outcome for most people, that they would seek that as a solution. You're in Manhattan. what's been your experience with working with patients who desire to decrease or come off of these psychiatric prescriptions, but they're, you know, prescribing psychiatrist is resistant to this next step. are they getting in trouble for noncompliance? Like, are you having behind the scenes, behind the curtains arguments with these folks? Like what's the reception been like?
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:It's very mixed, you know, obviously there's a resistance and reluctance, to come off of those, you know, some psychiatrists are very open to it, a lot of people go to their psychiatrists, they see them for maybe 10 minutes at a time, and to start making major shifts drugs, it's, you know, it's like, if it's not broken, leave it. And I think, I don't believe in that. I think we should always have. Okay. always reassess. There are side effects. You know, sometimes when it stops working, we're just collecting side effects, but we're not getting any benefits with a lot of these psychiatric medications and they stop working over, a period of time. so I think we should always, always be assessing it, but I never tell anyone to stop their psychiatric medications unless they discuss it with their psychiatrist. So I do not tell them to do that. we encourage them to discuss it. I will talk to their psychiatrist. if they're open to that and to discuss maybe weaning down or starting to, try and wean down slowly off the medications. You can't stop these medications suddenly. Often many of them, you'll have side effects, some significant side effects. So everyone should, anyone who's interested in weaning off medications, they should do it in a very controlled way with the help of a psychiatrist or whoever the prescribing physician is.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:I read an article that said Matthew Perry died of acute effects of ketamine. What are the risks of overdose with
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:Yeah, I mean, Matthew Perry did not die from ketamine, even, you have to take a lot of ketamine, even in, in really supra therapeutic doses. It doesn't really affect the respiratory drive too much. It doesn't affect the cardiac output. He did it in a hot tub by himself. He drowned, you know, and you can do the same thing happens with alcohol or benzodiazepines. There's many people who die from those. substances. and those have actually, those, you know, Xanax and all those actually do suppress the respiratory drive. Opiates, suppress the respiratory drives. It's not true. I think that's an incorrect, cause of death. I think he died from drowning. And no one should be doing ketamine at home alone personally, but especially not in a hot tub or in a bathtub where they can drown.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:Is there anyone who should not do ketamine full stop, whether in a therapeutic setting or by themselves at all?
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:I don't think people should be doing ketamine by themselves. I mean, that's my medical opinion. it's not a light drug and You know, it has significant effects on our mentation, it can be very dissociative, you know, in some places, it can be very hard to come out of. I think you have to use it with care, and it can be addictive when you're using small amounts on a daily basis, or on a regular basis. It just becomes another Xanax, it becomes another way of escaping. And I don't think that's the point of psychedelics. It's not a psychedelic in that case. We're just using, we have tons of drugs that can do that at this point. You know, we have Xanax, we have Valium, we have alcohol, we have all these other things. We don't need another one. But when you do ketamine in, a proper setting, at proper dosing, it's not addictive. work. It's definitely work and, and it can be incredibly therapeutic. So I think anyone who has addiction issues should definitely not be doing it. Matthew Perry had significant issues, well documented issues with addiction. He should never have had any type of drug like that available to him at home. That's just not right and sad that anyone who, whoever gave it to him, I mean, they should have their license revoked. It's just totally inappropriate. yeah, that's a sad case. Yeah.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:Is there any chance that someone could become addicted to the catharsis of therapy plus ketamine?
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:I mean if anyone who's done ketamine in a in a proper psychedelic dosing you're not going to get addicted to it
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:Okay, that's what I was wondering because like ayahuasca, we'll pick on ayahuasca, right? Because I'm like, ooh, I'm sitting with strangers and puking my guts out in a hot sweaty room. but people have had remarkable results and I'm like, maybe it's good that it's you throw up and it's hot and sweaty. And that way people don't run to it. But there are individuals who are just going from psychedelic experience to psychedelic experience. Like, Oh, I can't wait to do it again. it's unusual to me because I do recognize the element of discomfort. In that process both pre during and post as you pointed out it is work when you're doing it for therapeutic reasons but I feel like there are people who without psychedelics get addicted, if you will, to therapy. I'm like, how much therapy do you need? You know, and it's great to fine tune, but you have to also remember therapy, their business model requires that you keep coming back. So it checks and balances. I don't know.
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:completely agree with you. I think you know therapy should be limited. You know, I have some of my most difficult cases here have been people who go to therapy. I have some people who go to therapy three days a week, after so many years, the problem with the therapy is you're overthinking, you know, there's no acceptance in that. you're just going on and on about like, I'm trying to understand why this happened. Why did this person do this? Why am I this way? and that's the beauty of psychedelics is just to sort of step back and like, not understand. Just to really accept, you know, what you see in this, and often in most psychedelic experiences, and I've done like ayahuasca and psilocybin, sometimes you get messages, but for the most part, a lot of it's un understandable. You just can't understand it. You have to accept what is. You just learn, and I think there's something to be taken into real life, is to say, okay, this happened to me. You try and understand it, and therapy does its good as far as acknowledging what you need to let go of. So that's a process. It has to be done in a set period of sessions. And then at some point you have to say, okay, now it's time, now I have to do my work. Now I have to go in and you know, and I don't think doing 20 years of therapy, I think there's an issue with that. I do. And the same thing with psychedelics. I think people do overuse psychedelics too and overuse a lot of things. it becomes their crutch and they're not willing to do the work. You have to step back you know, that's why we have six sessions and some people come in for boosters. It's usually no more than every three to six months. and sometimes not at all, but they go in and you learn, you can take care of yourself. You don't need to have ongoing therapy and ongoing psychedelic experiences to live your life.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:I think a good therapist gives you tools. A good therapist helps you, increase your executive function. And a good psychedelic session helps you not to, as one of my guests put it, navel gaze. I love that so much. I never heard it before she said it. I'm like, yeah, yeah. A lot of what you're describing the stuckness in that cycle, whether it be therapy or psychedelics, it's that navel gazing, like tell me more about myself, please. but the idea is to dissolve that ego and to live in the present moment and live it in a way that is beneficial to you and the people around
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:absolutely. And it's a process. It's a process. You know, you have to understand, people have to be patient with themselves. Have to know that actually, even when you go in the psychedelic experience and you come back, sometimes it can be scary. It can be very difficult. It's work. It's not easy. But the resilience you learn, you come back here and you learn that, oh, you know, it passed. sometimes you go into these loops, you think, oh my god, I don't even know if I'm coming back here. But you do come back here. And sometimes we get into these thought loops in life, like something happens, even a simple cold, you know? Like when you're cold, I need an antibiotic, like I'm, I'm an internist also, and people come to me, they've had a cold, sniffles for less than a day, and they want, like, take it away, you know? I go, just be patient, drink some fluids, take some rest, some chicken soup, and it will go away, and we're going to be okay. Same thing with an emotional, like sometimes we feel, you know, like, You know, we feel down or something and, you know, just with a little patience, a few deep breaths, a little meditation, some exercise, a walk in the forest. It will pass, it will pass, and it always does, and to be patient with ourselves. Life is like sort of this sort of wave form, or I, I give this example of like riding a bike. sometimes, you know, you have to push in life, and then there's time for coast. It's pushing and coast, and that creates a momentum in life, and we use that momentum to push ourselves through life. And sometimes we get caught in the pushing, we're pushing, we're pushing, we don't stop sometimes, and just take a deep breath and coast,
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:That's so well put. I think it was around the time of my, mushroom trip that I was walking and I was noticing a tree. I also did kind of therapy around that time. So it's kind of all blending together. But, I was walking and I noticed a tree that I liked. cause I have favorite trees. the leaves had fallen down and I noticed that there was new leaves growing. And I thought. Oh, yeah, the old leaves they have to come off for the new leaves to come on. You can't expect this type of tree to have Beautiful new fresh green leaves all the time and I thought oh my gosh, I expect of myself To have fresh new thoughts all the time to be productive in every season, but i'm a part of nature, too So why do I expect? different results from myself that I wouldn't expect from a tree.
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:Yeah, it's so beautiful. I love that analogy. I love it. Cause now we're actually in the Northeast now it's spring here and everything's coming. I live in such, I'm in a beautiful area, right outside of New York. And it was just like the beauty. And it was so like just a month ago, everything was so dead and everything was like, there was a beauty in that too. And all the dead leaves you saw in the forest around us. And then they use that, all those dead leaves actually act as, as fertilizer for the newness to come out. And now it's just beautiful. It's, it's like, I look at my backyard, it's like a garden of Eden. It's just unbelievable. But we had to let go of that to have the beauty it's such a beautiful analogy and I love that. I love that.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:Look at us. We're just like having a psychedelic moment right now. I love
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:but that is a psychedelic moment. That is. psychedelic. That's another thing. You don't have to do a compound, a plant or ketamine to have a psychedelic moment. You know, part of mine was also learning spirituality. Like I started to study 18 years ago, someone handed me a book on. Jewish mysticism, like Kabbalah, and I started reading that, and that was my real psychedelic experience. So just to let you know, I think it's, this is a tool. Like I said, there's, we give you tools. Psychedelics are a tool, but they're not a means to an end. they're not the treatment. It's just a tool to help you get to that next stage. And I really do encourage, and it's so important that people who do psychedelics, also look into other things from, doing meditation, yoga, breath work, learning some spiritual wisdom, connecting to something spiritual, and like we talked about mysticism, I think is a science that just allows you to see the world in a more open way. it doesn't necessarily mean religious either, but just to see things from a new perspective, a different perspective.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:You are not at all what I thought you would be. I really thought that, you would be much more like some of the, medical doctors who have opened marijuana clinics where it's just like now they only have a hammer. So everything's a nail and a kind of like a, you know, not all of them, but Empathic practice is lovely in Pensacola, everyone, but some of them are just, you think, okay, there's a clear following up the money trail here. and, and some regards, I'm like, good for you because that sucks that you go to school to help people and then you have all this medical debt and then you're trapped in this system that doesn't necessarily support wellness. So good for you. but I really thought you'd be a little bit more of like a ketamine pusher. And I think it's so interesting that you're like, Hey guys, we can have conversations and, and that is a psychedelic
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:Right. No, for sure. It is. I mean, I think ketamine, not everyone's open, but I think ketamine or any of these psychedelics can be a beautiful opening to that. Now, some people are just not going to get there. You know, there's some people who can go read and study. They don't, not everyone needs ketamine, but for people who are really stuck. And again, most of the people who come to see us are really entrenched in their story, in their depression, in their past. You know, and they just don't know how to let go, so to tell someone like that to go right into, studying some mystical, they're so cut off, they don't feel safe. This can really act as a catalyst to get them in, and that's how I see it actually, I see ketamine and psychedelics as a catalyst to those other practices. and that's really the treatment and they all work together. And I think it's, it's beautiful, beautiful. I mean, work, it really is. It's, I wouldn't do it. I was an internist, for many years and I feel like I'm really doing real medicine here. And it's not just mental health. everything's connected. You know, our mental state also affects our physical state, like we talked about before. you know, the inflammation, there's a connection between our thoughts and our body through this sort of, it's called a hypothalamic pituitary axis, whatever it is, it's a little connection. So, you know, when we think it gets converted into our hormone system, into our nervous system, into our, cardiovascular cell, everything is connected. Everything. Thoughts are connected to our body, and when we're living in this sort of state of, you know, depression or stress all the time, that affects our immune system. Our immune system is not in balance, you know, if our brain is not in balance, our immune system is not in balance. even from cancer to disease to infection, all these things are influenced by the way we think.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:that's an excellent reminder. I'm really glad that you brought that up because the word that was coming to my mind was fibromyalgia. you know, it's somewhat mysterious and it's, like this unusual symptoms that could be benign or they could be serious. And, I'm really glad that you reminded us of the mind body connection because in, at least in our western pattern of thinking, we like to think of our ourselves as very neat little boxes, like, Oh, this thing lives in this box and that thing lives in this box. So this is another good reminder of why perhaps ketamine assisted therapy could be a good option for someone. Now, for someone who wants to To explore that option more, obviously they could take a trip to New York and it's lovely this time of year. if someone does not want to take a trip to New York, what are some red flags and green flags that they should be looking for when considering a ketamine assisted therapy setting?
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:so there's a lot of different people doing ketamine. It's become very popular. I think it's important to have a center that does integration. So you have a coach, it can be a life coach, it can be a therapist, who talks to people before prepares them emotionally for what comes up, because it's not always an easy journey. in a lot of, you know, traditional plant medicine, like ayahuasca, there's very well trained guides that really help people, through those situations. So to have someone who's going to be there to prepare you for the experience and also to be there at the end of the experience to help make sense or to help bring you back here in a safe way to help reposition your thoughts, or when you have a scary experience to help people, see the good and even the difficult experiences and to reframe those experiences can be extremely helpful. And we're finding some of the more difficult experiences therapeutically are the best experiences like I explained in those two, you know, more extreme experiences, but that's very, very important. So I think that's a big red flag. I think that's very, very important. make sure they do a medical intake. I don't believe in take home. So anyone that's going to give you take home doses of ketamine, you know, it'll work for a while, you know, for some people, but again, it does have addictive potential and it just becomes, it's not a psychedelic or just using another agent to just suppress our emotions. And I don't think that's the point of this. The point is to not need things outside of ourselves to suppress. It's to express the emotions, to feel the emotions, and let them pass through, rather than suppressing. So, we already have tons of drugs doing that. I don't want to see psychedelics become that. I mean, that's important.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:How important is it that the practitioner themselves? Have experienced a ketamine session.
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:personally, I think it's important. you know, at our center, it's part of the training. Everybody is encouraged to go through. We can't force everyone to go through, but everyone from the person at the front desk to our MAs, nurses, everybody goes through a treatment because it is significant, you know, and I do them periodically. I don't do them too often, but when I do them, it reminds me of, how important the experience is and to be able to put it into, the right setting here. It's very important that I think that the practitioner goes through an, an experience, very important. And when I talk to people, they can feel like I can reassure them. I know where they've gone. Even scary experiences. I gave myself a nice dose and I had experiences that I relate to when people go through a difficult experience here. I really relate and I, it really helps me reframe. their situation turn it into the positive, which I did with myself. So, I think it is important. Yes.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:Okay. Is there anything else that you want listeners to know about ketamine assisted therapy before we wrap up?
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:you know, we recently did a study on PTSD, one of the biggest, studies on it. it's a retrospective study, meaning we went back into our, into our files and looked at people who came in with reported PTSD and we did all the, you know, certain studies and it was about over 75%, of our patients actually had a significant clinical response. To ketamine treatment 75 over 70 76 actually, I think it was about 76 and 61 went into full remission
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:Oh my
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:It's impressive. We don't see that with anything, similar to what we're seeing with MDMA, even maybe a little bit better and a very safe thing. So I just want to let people know that this can be very, very helpful when done with integration in a proper clinical setting. That's very important. I want to get that out that this is, can be very helpful, very, very helpful. So there's hope. I want people to know that there's hope. That they don't have to suffer. We don't come here to suffer. there's different modalities that are coming out there. And it's going to work itself out. And it's also just the beginning, you know. I think we're all learning how to use this in a, in an appropriate way. And with humility, because you have to use this with a lot of humility. and I think it's going to be the future, I have no doubt.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:Tell people where they can learn more about your clinic and about your Zoom support groups.
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:Yeah, so our center is called Nushama, N U S H A M A dot com. we have a center in Midtown, Manhattan. in, anyone can go to, to our website and learn more about us. Also, we have weekly, we have, these integration circles live, and then we also have them, virtual. So, if anyone wants to pop on one of those, they can go to our website, and there's a way to sign up for them, just to see what people are doing. You know, get some experience and learn what, what we do here.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:Awesome. Well, thank you so much. This has been really, really interesting. I'm sure my listeners will be excited to add this to their toolbox of options. Because I think, as I said at the start of our discussion, everyone wants to make mental health a priority and make their health, health is health, right? Mental health is health priority. But they are finding the effort to match themselves with the right solutions is sometimes more frustrating than they anticipated. So it's just nice to kind of, have a buffet of options that your doctor, your regular primary care physician may not suggest.
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:I think in a few years it will be standard of care. I have no doubt. But, it's going to take some time to change the, you know, the word psychedelic, it has a lot of weight. A lot of heaviness.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:it does. yeah. Yeah.
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:it will change.
meredith_1_05-06-2024_111240:Well, thank you again. I really appreciate this. This is great.
squadcaster-j8fi_1_05-06-2024_121239:Thank you for having me.
Thanks for listening. If you liked this episode, you'll also like the one I did with a university of Alabama Birmingham researcher, studying magic mushrooms as a cure for addiction it's episode one 60, Stay tuned next week for a remastered favorite with an author and speaker with practical and hilarious tips to help convert awkward, small talk into real talk until then. Keep it curious.