Let's Talk Fandoms

On this month's bonus episode we discuss book fandoms and their impact on the book community. 

Tune in to hear us argue about the pronunciation of Don Quixote...

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Transcript

Welcome back to the Badass Literature Society where badasses come together to rate and review novels recommended by you. Hi, I'm Michael. This is Barbara. And I'm Lauren. Today, we're gonna talk about literary fandoms and the power of passionate readers.

As a disclaimer, we will be talking about the Harry Potter fandom at some points in this episode. We did just want to be clear that we do not support the author or her beliefs, statements, or actions. We are able to separate the works from the author. And for this episode, we are only referring to the written works and the world that she created, the fandom, that's kind of associated with that world rather than the author herself. And with that, we will jump into our main discussion.

So what do you think defines a literary fandom? Is it simply a group of fans, or is there something more that makes a fandom truly passionate and influential? I feel like this is a really interesting question. I'm not really sure how to answer this. Obviously, I'm not a professional.

I have no idea what makes a literary fandom, but I do think it starts with a group of fans who are just excited to to discuss, I don't know, all things the book, you know, the the characters and the themes, the overall plot, all that fun stuff. Like, I I think it's just people who get together and don't get sick of just talking about it over and over again, and then you find your little community, and then it grows and grows. And there you go. It's just a common interest that kind of grows with more people interested in talking and putting their their 2¢ in. Yeah.

I feel like the like, then it gets momentum, and then the hype is there, especially with social media. And then, like, that grows it even more. Yeah. I was gonna say social media and technology have made it the the growth exponential. Like, because I'm pretty sure you could you could find any author who's written, a series of of popular books, some level of popular books.

There'll probably be a subreddit for that author. There's probably a Discord server out there somewhere where there's people, fans discussing that author's works or that specific series. Probably a podcast about that author and their books. I mean, it it, there's there's all sorts of stuff. But I I think, like like Barbara said, I think it does start with, you know, a group of fans that are excited about what, about that that author's creation and wanna talk about it over and over and deeper and deeper and never tire.

Yeah. I feel like the biggest difference between, like, just a group of fans and a fandom is probably just the level of passion slash, like, identity in that thing, sort of. Like, people, I feel like, in certain fandoms, like, they focus more on like, yes. They do character analysis and stuff like that, but I think, like, the overarching themes and, like, the, I don't know, like, the little Easter eggs that are hidden and just the the level of interest and passion for a fandom versus just like like, you never hear some oh, I like Harry Potter. It's okay.

It's either, like, people are like, I read it. It was fine. Or or they're, like, in the within the fandom, and there's not really a lot in between, in my opinion. Or there's those heathens that just watch the movies. What are some of the most prominent literary fandoms today?

Can you share any personal experiences of being part of a literary fandom? And how did it impact your reading experience and connection to the book. I'm gonna let the 2 of them talk about Harry Potter. So I'll I'll leave that that to you. So then you needed to talk about your own?

But, yeah, this is a number I was I was going to do that, and then you both gave me a dirty look. So, I mean, some of the I think some of the prom prominent literary fandoms today, like, obviously, that's one of them. The, the the Tolkien verse, Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, all of that. Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere is, there's a big literary fandom there. Sarah j Moss's books, there's a big literary fandom there.

I mean, there there are a lot of, You forgot Game of Thrones. I'm surprised you didn't have a lot of I did. Did I write George Orwell? I think out of all those that you mentioned, Game of Thrones is bigger than all of them, personally. See, I think that's tricky though because I think Game of Thrones is is there's a big fandom because of more so because of the TV series than because of the books.

And then the books. Whereas the other ones I mentioned are literary fandoms originally, and then some of those have spun off into other forms. I think the Game of Thrones fandom, like, started almost with the the series and then read the books. And now they're like, Yeah. Always.

There there's definitely a no. Book them around. There's definitely a song of ice and fire fandom that existed before the TV show was even an inkling of an idea at HBO. But I think that fandom exploded with the success of the TV show. Okay.

Fair. I didn't think about that. As far as personal experiences being part of a literary fandom, I think that, the the biggest thing, I mean so sharing other other people sharing their love of a fandom is is what I'm gonna share. So, obviously, like, Lord of the Rings is one of my Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit, one of my favorite some of my favorite books. I obviously was not alive when those books initially were released in that fandom initially started, but my mom is a huge Lauren and I's mom is a huge Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit fan.

And that was one of those fandoms that, like, my mom was super excited to share her love of that with with me when I got open up to enjoy, to enjoy that story. And so I think that's another cool part of fandom, and I think we see that we see that now too, like, with Harry Potter. Like, people that are our generation are having kids, and they're they're excitedly, like, sharing that love of Harry Potter now with their with their kids. Yeah. So, I mean, I think that, the passing of the torch part of fandom is kind of a a neat phenomenon.

How did it impact my reading experience? That's a good question. I mean, the only fandom that that I can say, I I guess so I'm part of Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere fandom. And I guess I'm also I I subscribe or or a member of the, the subreddit for that, and I'm on a Discord server where people talk about it as well. I'm not very active in those places, but I enjoy, reading the discourse between other people talking about different theories and and stuff like that.

And, I think that that can enhance, a book if somebody presents an idea. It's like, oh my god. I never thought about, like, that being how that might have worked, and then going back and rereading that section of the book. There's there's all sorts of stuff like that that happens. Yeah.

I feel like I did not get into, Lord of the Rings and all that like you did. But prominent literary fandoms, one the one that comes to mind for me or that I relate closely with would be Harry Potter, obviously. I feel as if personal experiences being part of it like, I don't know. I feel like I read them when I was a kid or a teenager or whatever, older elementary teenagers. They were read to me by my mom, then I read them.

And then I probably didn't read them again until, I don't know, like, younger adulthood just because I just decided I'm gonna do a reread. But by then, like, podcasts were a thing, and those weren't weren't a thing when I was in high school. Maybe they were, but, like, not as many people. They definitely weren't as common. And so then I started asking, like, okay.

Well, maybe I want to find some podcasts about this. And so I I found, like, the Swish and Flick podcast and other like, MuggleNet and I don't know. And even when, I guess, way back when I very first started reading it, like, they had the the sort yourself into your house quiz or whatever, that everybody would take, and so that contributes to the fandom. And there was just a bunch of a bunch of different things that made it cool, but then you meet people online that, in person and online, that are also part of fandom, and I think that just impacts the reading experience, the connection to the book, like, the connection to the world, and it gives a sense of community as far as, like, things you know, you walk into a trivia night or whatever that's Harry Potter themed. I'm like, you know, oh, like, you can walk up to somebody and be like, hey.

What house are you in? Like, you just I don't know. It's, a sense of community, a sense of belonging, so to speak, a common common ground, things like that. Yeah. I don't know about the most prominent lure.

I just feel like it was a thing when we were kids just because it coincided with the fact of social media or just the Internet, honestly, being such a massive thing when we were, like, starting to be. So I think it really that helped. I really do. I I feel like nowadays, like, yes, we have all this stuff, but, like, it just you don't see it to that level, and I'm not really sure why. I don't I can't explain it.

As far as, like, the biggest one I was a part of, obviously, it's gonna be Harry Potter just because I was a kid when that was a thing. Obviously, now, like, there's a bunch of books and stuff that have come out, but, like, I'm not what else do you have to do? You know? Like, I'm an what else do you have to do? You know?

Like, I'm an adult now. Like, I've got crap to do. Like, I can't just be, like, all, you know, online all day chatting with my little friends about something. Yeah. And like Michael mentioned, like, we I feel like Lord of the Rings is a thing, but, like, we weren't born from when those books came out.

Like, we were kids during the when the movies were made, and I think that really helped Lord of the Rings kind of skyrocket back into a thing. Obviously, I read the books because because of the movies. Like, I didn't really know what Lord of the Rings were prior to that. As far as, like, personal experiences being part of that fandom, yeah. Like, I remember, you know, going to midnight launches and dragging my poor mom to them because I was a kid.

Like, I you know, my mom's gonna let me go by myself. And, yes, I had little friends and stuff like that, but I feel like I was I've always been a reader outside of, like, anything else. That was really something I've always enjoyed. And, like, yes, my friends enjoyed it, but it wasn't to, like, the fascination that I had. And it was really nice to finally I feel like it kind of put reading back on the map for kids, and they showed that, like, yes, kids do enjoy reading if you let them and give them these books that let them think about stuff.

And not ban them from school libraries. Yes. Exactly. That's just a whole another freaking conversation. But, like, I remember staying up all night once I got my book to finish reading them and my mom being so mad at me because I wouldn't sleep.

And then, like, going online to see, like, what other people were talking about because, like, yes, I had friends that read Harry Potter, but like I said, they were not in the level that I was. And so I would literally go online to muggle net. Like, that's I remember going out to MuggleNet and seeing the the the chats that everyone was talking about, and we were theorizing about what was gonna happen and all these things. And it's like, I've never had that before as a kid, and it was kind of nice because, like, yes, I had friends at school who were talking about it, but, like, not to this extent. So then I would go home and be like, this is what I my friend group at school talked about, but, like, what is, like, the rest of the world talking about?

Like, I remember, like, you would have discussions with these kids that were in, like, Europe and South America and Asian about it. It was just so fascinating to me being a part of that As much as I hate, what's happened because of the stupid author and all this stuff, like, it sucks because she tainted something that was so special to me growing up as a kid because I finally felt like I belonged somewhere with this. As far as reading impact, like I said, I always read, so it didn't change anything, but I feel like it made reading cool. So all of a sudden, I was like, hey. Yeah.

I'm not embarrassed to say I read a lot of books. You know? Connection to book. I mean yeah. Like, yeah.

Like I said, I've I feel like I've already answered that as far. The only thing I would always it was always unfortunate. It's like, there's no Latin kids there, so that kind of bummed me out because not seeing any Latin kids, like, little zero when I get it. Like, it's based off of, like, England, but, like, come on. You have to have someone.

Like, we're everywhere. Foreign exchange student or something at least? Right. I don't know. Like, it was really yeah.

What I think is crazy too with with Harry Potter is that the we we haven't and I might be wrong. You can correct me if I'm wrong. But I don't I don't think there's been a book series that had the same hysteria surrounding it that Harry Potter the Harry Potter books did. Like No. I mean, there's stuff that's gotten close.

Like, twilight was close, but, like, it wasn't so broad, I feel like. Like, that had a bit of a hysteria, but not I don't think it was Twilight was like a fast burn, and I feel like it burned out a lot quicker. Like, I feel like that there's a lot of adults that still identify with, like, the Twilight fandom like they do Harry Potter. Well, I was just thinking, like, the the brand Sanders and, like, the his cosmic, the stormlight archive series specifically. Like, there are people in the communities that I'm in that go out and get the book the day that it comes out and, like, try to read it or take the day off so that they can sit there and read the book.

It it happens, but it's not to the extent I feel like it was with with Harry Potter. And even then, like, there's not midnight releases for these books. Like, these are Right. Games. You have to go to the bookstore, like, the day it releases and get it.

Yeah. I feel like it was Harry Potter and Twilight for a little bit. I feel like I remember Twilight having a midnight release. They did. Because I was there.

Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. I I feel like I I wanna say I remember that, especially because, like, someone grabbed one of the books and, like, posted a few of the chapters online, and it was like a whole thing. I remember it turned into a thing.

Like, that I feel like that was kind of close, but like Lauren said, like, it didn't last very long. It was it was like meteor meteoroid. How do you say that word? Meteoroid. Yeah.

And then kind of fell and, like, people make fun of the movies because let's be honest, they were not good. No. The movies really their movies struggled. I mean I mean, and the books are great either. Like, she's not a great, writer.

No offense. I liked the books, but much better than the movies. And, like, I think if I were to go back and read the books as an adult, like, I don't think I would probably like it as well. And I can even look back and see things, and I'm like, yeah. That probably wasn't the best for young teenage girls to hear about, like, model wise, but I enjoyed them at the time.

I mean but I mean, you can say the same with Harry Potter. Like, there's a lot of prop super stuff in Harry Potter too. It's just as adults, now you can see. And as a kid, obviously, when you're reading this, like, you don't pick that up because it's just way over your head. Yeah.

But and I think that's the beauty of it. Like, you should be able to be a fan of things and still be able to critique it. Because I feel like if you have this whole, like, rose colored glasses on anything, like, you're you're not doing that book or that thing a service. Like, you should be able to critique it and still be a fan of it and not be like, oh, it's perfect because nothing's perfect. Right.

It's obviously, they're all gonna have problematic things. Mhmm. I still remember, like, almost pretty much camping out at the Warren the West Warren in Wichita, Kansas, those of you who know where Kansas is, to see I don't even remember what Harry Potter maybe it was at this point, but we my we camped for, like it was a long time. And we had to, like, switch out to go to the bathroom, and, like, we had, like, a little mini cooler with, like, our snacks in it. And I just don't think that the people that are growing up today will ever understand that because I don't think they really do that anymore.

No. That's not a thing. I mean, I remember when the first HP movie came out, like, you couldn't get tickets. They were all sold out. And our teacher, our, lit teacher, English lit teacher, I don't know if she had connections with the people who I don't know.

Somehow she got tickets for all of her classes. She got 2 tickets, and then she was doing a little A raffle. A raffle. Right? And my best friend and I okay.

I was in one class. She was in one class, and and we're like, okay. If you win, I'll take you. If I win, I'll take you type thing. And she her class went first.

She didn't win. And then we got to my class, and I won. And, oh my god, it was just Did you cry? Euphoric. It was a euphoric feeling of winning and just thinking like, oh my god.

Like, we wanted to get so badly. We didn't get tickets. And then, like, I remember meeting her in the hallway and, like, pretending for, like, 2 seconds because I can't I'm not very good at that. Like, oh, it didn't win. Just get it.

And then we're, like, screaming and That's awesome. It was amazing. But, yeah, like, I don't I don't know if that's a thing anymore. Like, I feel like now it's I don't know. It it was just a place excited about reading anymore.

Like, I feel like some of them I don't know. Like, I know kids just in my teaching days, but then also, you know, my cousin is a reader, and, like, she gets excited about the books that she reads. But I just don't feel like there's been any big, like, literary craze in the younger generations since, like, twilight because Harry Potter is first. I guess some of the Harry Potters came out after, but I would say the the Olympic one, the Percy Jackson had a, like, a thing, but it wasn't it's not it wasn't as big or isn't as big. No.

Yeah. It wasn't as big. I also think that some of that is just the way that media is released today versus when we were kids. Mhmm. Like, if Harry Potter happens today, you wouldn't have massive midnight release at Barnes and Noble because people would just download it midnight on their Kindle or their iPad or whatever.

And it's, I mean, it's the you could look you could make this in comparison to other stuff. I remember when I was at, like, middle school and high school, like, going with my friends to GameStop for midnight releases for a video game we were all super excited about. Whereas now you just wait until midnight, and then you can just play it on your console that already downloaded it at your house. And so there's not that same, like, communal gathering that you got. Well, that's unfortunate for our children or my children.

Maybe we'll get some hysteria, around a book series again when George RR Martin if George RR Martin ever releases the winds of winter. And, That man's gonna die before any books come out. That's why I said If that happens, there'll be hysteria. Just because he's been working on it since, like, 2010, I think. Anyway, we can move on to our next question.

What role does social media play in the development and sustainment of literary fandoms? How has it changed the way fans interact with each other and with authors? I mean, I feel like social media definitely helps sustain well, yeah, sustain literary fandoms. I think there's Facebook groups and, funny fandom meme pages, like memes and whatever that people make, and there's podcasts too that are associated with like, if you just look up on Apple Podcasts or whatever, just look up Harry Potter, and there's, like, a there's a ton of them of just people discussing the books and the fandom. And then there's groups.

There's, like, social media groups for those podcasts. So, like, oh, you like Swish and Flick? There's a Swish and Flick podcast group that you can go join and, like, talk to each other. And they go to, like, Comic Con, and the podcasters, like, go to these big events. And they go to Universal Studios, and they, like, you know, share their experiences there.

And it's just I think social media allows all of that to be shared and for everybody to feel more connected. Because, like, there were chat rooms and platforms and stuff for that, obviously, back in the day, but it's just a lot different now. It's a lot easier to access and slightly less sketchy because you at least kind of know who you're talking to now versus back then, when there were, like, no pictures or anything. I'm saying kind of. I think, you know, like, if I'm gonna buy something on Facebook, I can click somebody's profile and kinda know if they're fake or not, to a certain extent.

But I think I think, yeah, the social media plays a big role in fandoms and kind of keeping them alive, I guess. And it changed the way that fans interact with each other and authors just in the sense that, you know, it makes it a lot easier to interact with other fans and to, like if you join a Facebook group, you already got, like, thousands of people in there that you know are gonna be of similar mindset sort of thing about the thing that you're trying to discuss. So So if we're just talking about, like, Harry Potter, I I I feel like one of the reasons it did so well was because, like I mentioned, it came out around the time that we, as kids who were reading these books, were hitting the Internet and there were websites. We were creating little websites for it and and chatting and all the stuff about it. I really don't think if, like, Harry Potter came out earlier or later, it would have had the same hysteria just because it was very fortunate.

It came out during that time when, you know, the Internet was, like, the wild, wild west, and you couldn't create it was so easy to create fan pages and this, and then there's fan fiction, and, like, people were writing all this stuff about it. Like, it just turned into this monster, and I I do think it helped because of that. As far as nowadays, I think it's cool because it helps the smaller fandoms, like smaller groups and pockets of of books that don't have such a huge following, and they can still connect on, like, Reddit forums and and on BookTok and stuff like that, it definitely helps that be, a, be seen, and, b, that you can connect with these people. Because, like, back then, you wouldn't have that. Like, it's it's either, like, you're a fan of the massive thing that blew up, and you might not have a chance to talk about, like, the niche thing that you really like.

And there's only a few people that do, but, like, a few people in, like, per state or per country and stuff, like, you can meet them now and still talk about it. And I think it's cool to have, like, to give the smaller fandoms a chance to, like, talk and discuss things that they enjoy on these different forums. As far as interacting with other fans, same things. And same with authors. Like, I know some authors aren't a fan of of, doing, like, book talks and all their or TikToks and doing that kind of stuff.

But I know, like, Victoria Aveyard, she is all over book talk and does stuff like that. I think it's really interesting to see them some authors really embrace booktok, and and I don't blame the ones that don't want to do that. Like, sometimes you just don't. Like, I get it. So but I I think it helps some fans interact with one another and stuff, and I think it keeps, like I said, the smaller fandoms alive.

I 100% agree with you that it does keep the small fandoms alive, because it gives people a way to interact that they maybe wouldn't have had before outside of just, like, chatting on or chatting with their friends, or like minded people that maybe they have, like, a a book club at the library or something. But, I mean and I also agree with you, Barbara, with the whole, like, social media really skyrocketing in some ways, Harry Potter. But I I was I was looking it up, and and Harry Potter really is like it it's it's an anomaly. Like, the if you look at, like, the top selling books of all time, like, in all of human history, like, number 1 is Don Quixote, which came out in 1605, then the tale of 2 How did you pronounce that? Don Quixote.

That is not correct. I don't even know what it is, so I would probably butcher it too. Well, how is it pronounced? I've that's how I've always heard it pronounced. Quixote?

Mhmm. Don Quixote. Oh, how do you spell it? I don't even know what this is. It's a q.

No. Like, what is the term text? Oh, Don Quixote. Anyway, not important for this the the point I'm trying to make. That's the number one best selling book of all time.

It's had since 1605 to make those sales. Number 2, Tale of 2 Cities, Charles Dickens. That's had since 18/59 to make those sales. Terrible book, by the way. And then you've got Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, 1990 7.

Like, that's that's just crazy. Like, it's it's higher on the list than than books you would think that would have surpassed it, like The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings or The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, all massively selling books that came out decades, if not, like, a century before. Then there's Harry Potter. So For what it's worth, Michael, you were correct. I just listened to the pronunciation.

Thank you. Is it I've never heard someone pronounce it Keoty. Quixote. Don Quixote. I mean, I just I just did Don Quixote pronunciation, and it said it pretty much exactly how Don Quixote.

Yeah. Well, but, like, is the basic I've never even heard of it, so I had no clue. That's the American pronunciation. Can you switch out the pronunciations too? I mean, it just says how to pronounce.

Let's see. Yes. Social media has dramatically changed that, though. Like, we were talking about before, like, Discord and Reddit and all these places that are, like, specific Facebook groups. Lauren's saying podcasts.

Like, if you look up pick pick a fandom and search the the in the in any podcast app, and you're gonna find a whole list of not just episodes, but whole shows that are based on the fandom. Like, I I know for a fact there's there's you you both have talked about 2 separate Harry Potter podcasts that you guys listen to. So yeah. I mean, social media and just technology in general has made a huge difference in how fans can interact with each other and obviously the authors because previously, maybe you run into the author or you see them at a signing event or you send them a letter in the mail and hope that maybe they'll send you a letter back. And obviously, some of them did, but authors as well as really anybody is way more accessible today than they ever have been throughout, you know, history history of famous people.

And so so, yeah, it it gives you a platform. It gives them a platform to be able to out host, like, q and a with fans around the world that they maybe never would have gotten a chance to interact with in, you know, just a few decades ago. So it's pretty wild, but all it's done. I'd like to point out that his Spanish name, and it's Quixote, like Spanish. Just pointing that out.

Don Quixote. Quixote. Quixote. It's Spanish. It is a Spanish author.

Right. I I know, but it's a Spanish name. Therefore, you should pronounce it the Spanish way. It's a Spanish the title of the book. It's not an author.

The author is Miguel de Espinosa. Author is still Spanish? Yes. From Spain? Okay.

Well, that is what Spanish means. Yes. Thank you. Have you seen examples where a fandom has divided over a particular storyline, character development, or ending, and how does this impact the community overall? Oh, yeah.

I feel like that's the best part of being a fandom. I love that we don't agree on everything because I feel like life would be so boring if you did, and that's where you get that fun discussion with people. As long as, like, we're there's no personal attacks. You're name calling other people. Like, you should be able like I mentioned earlier, you should be able to have discourse in in as long as it's a nice discourse.

Like, I don't like it when it veers off, like, real bad. Not not a fan of that. But, oh, of course, like and, I'll let Lauren talk about Harry Potter. But, like, in twilight, I remember everyone's like, what's his face as a creep watching you sleep? Like, yeah.

That's creepy. Or, like, the whole, Edward versus, Jacob. I was thinking of the actual guys who played the in the movie, but, Jacob, like, that was a whole thing. The, I mean, the divergent kind of had a fandom, and then the the final book came out, and that's one, a great one. No one liked the ending.

It was a terrible ending. Like, you love to hate those, but, like, no one talks about it anymore because how terrible that ending was. Like, oh, yeah. There's, you know, a bunch. Like, Lord of the Rings, I know people were, discussing certain characters, like you know, especially, like, there's not a lot of, women characters in the book and all this other.

Like, it it yes. Like, I think it's it's cool. Like I said, it's some people will die in about how Legolas isn't a character. What? Is that a thing?

Yeah. He was invented for the movie. Legolas was in the books. What are you talking about? I didn't read the books.

I've never seen anything in the Hobbit. If that's what you mean. He wasn't in the Hobbit. He's in the books, dude. What the hell are you talking about?

In the Hobbit, he wasn't, but he wasn't the movie Hobbit. And, like That's what I'm talking about is in the Hobbit. They added him. They didn't even said Lord of the Rings. Hobbit is completely different than the Hobbit.

They added him to the Hobbit. He was not in the In the movies. They added Legolas to to the movie. Not he's not but, I mean, the the the book is, like, super short, so there is no reason for them to make that into a freaking 3 parter. But, like, I digress.

That's a whole another freaking issue that we're having. But yeah. No. Like, I I think it's amazing when we talk about this stuff because I I think it's cool. Like, that you should have disagreements and you should have because everyone's reading a book how they see it.

And I I I wholeheartedly believe especially I love when the authors say this, like, one it's their book until they put it out in the world, and then now it's the fans. You know? Like, how they interpret it, how they see it, it's up up up to us to see that. And as as long as you're being polite and not just blatantly attacking someone for no reason, like, I I love to see that kind of discord. I think it's really funny, actually.

I mean, I agree. I think that it it there's a line and there's some that go way past it. But I think that that generally, like, disagreements on things can provide in any situation, stimulating conversation with someone else that has a different viewpoint than you and provide alternate perspectives. I find that in a lot of fandoms, and this is both books and movies and other things, that a lot of the people that argue a lot of the arguments, at least online, that I see are about, like, who they ship characters with. And Oh, yes.

No. That shouldn't be this person. They're supposed to be this person. You're wrong. And it's, like, the There's whole fan fictions written of, like, the Yeah.

I mean, that's the beauty of it. Like, that's the beauty of it. Like, if you didn't enjoy the person that they ended up with, you can just ship someone else on fan, on the fansides. Love that for us. But as far as, like, me personally, I have I don't have any examples that I've seen in book fandoms that where they disagree because the the the first thing that comes to mind when I read this question was Star Wars.

Like, the the big divides That is not as a book. I know. It doesn't count because it's not a book. Erlug wasn't originally a book. And so I don't I don't I've never seen this in the literary fandoms.

Scene to You did in Harry Potter when you were growing up. Like, your sister's gonna mention it, but, like, that was the whole discussion for a long time. Like, is Snape evil? Is is, not Gandalf. Is, Dumbledore.

Dumbledore. Yeah. Such a great character. I was like, no. They're all trash.

That's true. They're arguing about, like, those plot points and, like, how like, you're each other making, like, predictions. So, like, one person thinks Snape is evil or he's trying at the end of the story. It's just that at the end, like, you can still, like, people are, like, oh, he, you know, he was a great man. Yeah.

But he still bullied, like, 13 year olds. Like, that's not a good look for anyone. I don't care what you did after the fact. Like but like I said, I wanna leave all that to your your sister. We'll get get into that.

But, like yeah. No. I think, yeah. I mean, fandoms are definitely divided over story lines and relationships and character developments and endings and all the things, and I think the impact that it has on the fandom communities is really just banter. And, I think as long as people are civil and they're not like, you're just, like, name calling because you have, like, a one think one way or think another way.

I think as long as you're like, well, agree to disagree sort sort of situation, then it can be entertaining. Obviously, in Harry Potter, the bigger divisions that I guess I think of are with Snape's character. There are either like, there's a whole camp of people that, like, love Snape, and then there's a whole camp of people that hate Snape, and there's not really a lot of in between. And having been the person that, like, hated Snape all throughout the novels and then, like, realized, oh, actually, he probably had some redeeming qualities. Now I don't think that I would name my child after him, like like Carrie Let me okay.

Let's this is a great example. What is a redeeming quality that he had? I'm just dying to know. He ended up making some choices that were I felt redeeming. Now does do I when I say redeeming quality, that doesn't cancel all of the shittiness of the rest of him, but it makes him less shitty in the end.

And I don't I don't know, man. Okay. So he had a toxic bully. One-sided relationship with a woman. Toxic.

Toxic, mind you. He was awful regardless in anything. Like I mentioned, he was awful to children. There is 0 excuse for that as a teacher. That is not okay.

Like 0, I don't care what you're doing on your days off. You are a teacher. You should not be bullying 13, 11, 12 year olds. I'm sorry. If you get off on that, there's something wrong with you, mister Smith.

Unpopular opinion, Harry deserved it. Wow, Michael. I'm just kidding. I mean, but if you think about it, there were times throughout the novels where he did save Harry's life and Harry otherwise would have been dead, and we wouldn't have the rest of the books. I mean, it was the first one.

Mhmm. Yep. Yep. So if we would have allowed Quirrell to murder Harry like he wanted to in the first book, we hadn't had Snape's step in chosen one. This never would have happened.

I know. For a lot of reasons. Interesting. This is a perfect example, you guys. I know.

Exactly. Agree. I am not by any means, just for clarity saying the snape is a good guy. I do not think he is a good guy. I think the bullying of the kids apologist.

Isn't that what He has a lot of, like, problematic qualities, and overall, I think he's really just kind of a dick. But there were aspects that we learn about him, especially like, okay. He's got some trauma. Okay. He's got like this.

So where I can empathize with some of that, not that it excuses his behavior. It doesn't, but I can empathize with it. And there were some things that some decisions that he made along the way that I that were more selfless and, I think redeemed some of the hate that I had for him, but I still don't think he's a good guy. So there was him, and then there was, like, Dumbledore. Like, everybody's like, oh, we all love Dumbledore, but then if you really look back at it, it's just like gaslighting.

Gaslighting. That's the piece. He like silent treatmented Harry for like a whole book. And it's like, when Harry needed him the most, he he was like NASA and like you're on your own. Do some diet.

And like looking back, obviously you can see that, okay, he was separating because he knew that he was gonna he was not gonna be around anymore, and he needed Harry to be able to, like, function on his own. And so I can see why they did what they did, but I still don't think he's just a completely, like, well, we all love Dumbledore sort of thing. Right. Also, he's super biased. Like, oh, you know, 20,000,000 points to Gryffindor because you finished you finished your pumpkin pasty.

Like I was gonna say Slytherins have a real reason to hate Dumbledore. Yes. They probably do. He was very biased, but so those are just some examples of, obviously, like, fandoms being divided on characters. I think, you know, shipping wise, I just still truly feel like Harry and Hermione would have been a better pairing.

I agree. Harry and Ginny, I just don't I liked book Ginny way better than I liked movie Ginny. That's not even a discussion, and it's not even the actress's fault. That's just No. It's not.

Bad. It's poor writing on their part, removing everything that made her really cool. Because she was a really cool character and then just, like, made her very flat in the movies. Yeah. And they they did the same thing to Ron too.

Like, all his great lines in the books, they gave to Hermione in the movies. They did. Like, they really did. I'm just like, what is happening right now? Like Yeah.

Hold on. I love Ron. I love Ron. I just feel like chemistry wise, Harry and Hermione should have ended up together. And Ron was right to be having all of the worries about Harry Harry and Hermione together because, honestly, they just made more sense in my mind.

But And scene. That was a great example that you guys read from a script that we wrote ahead of time about a disagreement and a fan. What? Yes. It did play out fairly well.

You know, some people think Draco and Draco and Harry end up together. I've seen that on fan like yeah. Seen that on fan fiction. Deep in fan fiction, man. Let me tell you.

You got some interesting combinations. I mean, everyone shipped, Draco, like, Draco and Hermione. Draco and Hermione. They're actually like They're very They had chemistry in in the IRL. Yeah.

They had in the movies. But the actor the actors actor and actress, like, I assume they like Right. That's what I'm saying. Like, the the actors in the movies had had, multiple chemistry and stuff like that. But, yeah, I mean, as much as Harry and Draco hated each other, meh, one of my favorite ships of the books were, Sirius and, what's your guys' favorite dude?

The dry the Wolf Lupin. Lupin. I love it. I love that. The little ship that came out of that.

Love me some Lupin. And with that, we have reached the end of another bonus episode. Okay. Well, I just like to preface this that we completely forgot about Hunger Games, and I'm extremely disappointed in myself because I was in the trenches with the Hunger Games. I think the only issue is that was I wasn't that old, but I was a bit older when the Hunger Games came out, I feel like.

Like, I wasn't were we, like, starting middle not middle school. Came out. Yeah. When the books came out. What like, middle school or something like that.

And I think the same thing was, like, it didn't really hit, like, crazy fandom until I I feel like the movie came out. College for you, Barbara, because the hunger games came out yeah. The first book came out my senior year of high school. When did it come out? 2008.

Oh. Oh, shoot. Okay. Well, JK. JK.

That's what I'm saying. Like Yeah. We were older for Hunger Games. Older, and so it's not like that crazy, like, fanatic. Like, I actually had to, like, start, you know, thinking about the future and not just staying up late and reading books.

Oh, the good old days. Anyhoo, have feedback about today's episode. You can contact us by writing to badassliteraturasociety@gmail.com. You can also send us a DM or leave a comment on Instagram or Facebook. Make sure you're following Badass Literature for free in your favorite podcast app.

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