Lunatics Radio Hour: The History of Horror

Episode 123 - The History of Goblins

• The Lunatics Project • Season 1 • Episode 153

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Join us as we explore the origins of goblins and their varied representations across different cultures, from the Pyrenees Mountains in France to the British Isles, and even the tengu of Japan. We'll also discuss the cultural and historical significance of goblins, kobolds, and trasgu, analyzing their portrayal in popular culture and the problematic aspects of J.K. Rowling's work. Uncover the mysterious connection between goblins, Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, and the eerie paranormal encounters documented in the Hellier documentary series and the Hopkinsville Goblins case.

Finally, we'll dive into the portrayal of goblins in films like The Descent and Sam Raimi's Spider-Man, comparing them to characters like The Joker and exploring the concept of alien goblins from space. We'll also examine the power of folklore in reshaping our understanding of the paranormal and its representation in modern media, such as metal music videos. Don't miss this captivating journey into the enigmatic world of goblins and their impact on our collective imagination!

Email filmsaboutlunatics@gmail.com to submit your short stories and paranormal experiences.

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Check out Abby's book Horror Stories. Available in eBook and paperback. Music by Michaela Papa, Alan Kudan & Jordan Moser. Poster Art by Pilar Keprta @pilar.kep.

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Speaker 1

Hello everybody, Welcome back to another episode of the Lunatics Radio Hour podcast. I'm Abby Branker sitting here with Alan Kudin.

Speaker 2

Hello.

Speaker 1

And today we are talking about the history of goblins. Before we jump into it, I want to note two things quickly. One, that there is certainly some anti-Semitic history that we're going to talk about today in conjunction with goblins Just be warned. And two, I want to give a major shout out to April Branker for a ton of research help with this topic.

Speaker 2

And spoiler alert, because we're going to be giving some Spider-Man spoilers about true identities of goblins. Goblins revealed.

Speaker 1

Very good For today's sources, which we'll also put in the show notes. We have a paper by Anilia Shaijohn from the Global Journal of Human Social Science called Goblin Mythology a brief study of the archetype. A Forbes article by Danny D Placido, the Harry Potter anti-Semitic controversy explained. A Hay Alma article by Evelyn Frick, the anti-Semitic history of goblins. A CBRcom article by Ben Hardwick, why goblins are the Lord of the Rings biggest misconception. A historycom article by Volker Janssen, how the little green men phenomenon began on a Kentucky farm. An Irish Centralcom article by Leo Casey, the Irish legend of the Puka. A book called Vampire Universe by Jonathan Mayberry, a PA Wildscom article by Lou Bernard, the Goblin Scarecrow, a medium article by AL Treadwell, the Goblins of Old Detroit and, of course, project Gutenberg, imdb and Wikipedia.

Speaker 2

I couldn't help but notice that one of those was not like the others.

Speaker 1

Which one?

Speaker 2

Vampire Universe by Jonathan Mayberry.

Speaker 1

Yep very excited to get into it.

Speaker 2

Did you read it?

Speaker 1

Parts of it.

Speaker 2

I do enjoy, jonathan Mayberry, do you?

Speaker 1

Yeah, oh, tell me more.

Speaker 2

I mean, he's a science fiction horror guy.

Speaker 1

What have you read by him?

Speaker 2

I've read a few things, the most notable being Ghost Road Blues. Ghost Road Blues And it's follow-up of Dead Man's Song.

Speaker 1

Dead Man's Song. Are you a fan?

Speaker 2

It's interesting. I like his world building.

Speaker 1

So these are fiction books, I'm assuming.

Speaker 2

I mean debatable. I mean there's lots of ghosts and monsters and shit.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's fiction, but are they like theory books or are they written to be novels, full novels?

Speaker 2

Okay, but who knows, maybe something happened, maybe Maybe he knows about ghosts. Yeah, the books are a lot of fun. He's a wildly prolific writer who just cranks out book after book.

Speaker 1

Some hits and some misses, I assume.

Speaker 2

Some hits, some misses. He also does like a lot of legally endorsed movie novels. So like there's an Alien one, there's a Predator one there's X-Files And these are just like novels in those universes that are. you know, it's not fan fiction.

Speaker 1

There's an X-Files There is. Oh, I would love to read that.

Speaker 2

But yeah, everything is obviously endorsed because he's kind of a big. He's a big writer, sure, cool, all right, awesome. He's not just sneaking it through on his blog like you do.

Speaker 1

Adding some credibility to what we're doing here today. We love that.

Speaker 2

One other thing we should add to the bibliography is the Necro-Goblokon videos.

Speaker 1

Very good. Alan's research.

Speaker 2

They're a real forefront in modern-day goblin mythos. Awesome, along with the goblin soundtrack. No, that's sorry, not. not soundtrack to the movie goblin, but soundtracks that the band Goblin has done, which are great, i'm sorry. Guess how many films, according to IMDB, goblin has scored.

Speaker 1

How many films, according to IMDB, has the band Goblin scored?

Speaker 2

I'm sorry, not IMDB Wikipedia.

Speaker 1

How many films has the band Goblin scored?

Speaker 2

That is correct.

Speaker 1

Seven.

Speaker 2

Fifteen feature films have been scored by Goblin.

Speaker 1

Any of note.

Speaker 2

Suspiria.

Speaker 1

Oh, hell yeah, The new one from 2018?.

Speaker 2

No, the OG, the 1977. Huh, like all that really iconic music. Yeah, that shit's goblin.

Speaker 1

I didn't even know goblin was a band until we started recording this episode. What That is? a blatant lie. No, it's not a lie.

Speaker 2

No we were playing many times we were playing game night. Goblin comes on the soundtrack and we're like Abby, come listen to goblin and you'd saunter out.

Speaker 1

All this is fictional. Is goblin. What kind of music is goblin for people?

Speaker 2

According to Wikipedia, goblin is an Italian progressive rock band known for their film scores, but also they just got some bangers, you know.

Speaker 1

Should you make a Spotify playlist for everybody of your favorite goblin songs?

Speaker 2

You don't even need to. These already exist. Just type in goblin in Spotify, listen to the greatest hits and you're going to be like, wow, bangers.

Speaker 1

Are you getting paid by this band for this endorsement?

Speaker 2

All I can say is you guys should really check out goblin.

Speaker 1

Anywhere you listen to music. Okay, let's get into it. Perhaps a little bit surprising to me at least There's a lot more to the history of goblins than I anticipated, which maybe at this point during this podcast I should be used to, but I think it's going to be pretty cool. We're going to explore some different layers of goblins and what they mean in culture, but let's start at the very beginning with history and folklore. According to Britannicacom, a goblin in western folklore is defined as quote a wandering sprite that is usually mischievous but often malicious. Goblins supposedly live in grottoes, but attach themselves to households, where they are believed to bang upon pots and pans, snatch nightclothes off of the bodies of sleeping people, move furniture at night and flee after wrapping on walls and doors. They are thought to help parents discipline children by rewarding the latter with presents when they are good and punishing them when they are disobedient. The word goblin derives from the Greek kobalas, meaning rogue, end quote.

Speaker 2

The word goblin is a Greek root.

Speaker 1

You can trace back like very similar words to goblin in almost all cultures. There's a few different sources that I found that kind of had different takes on this, but essentially a ton of different languages have words that are all spelled differently but kind of sound like goblin across many, many languages.

Speaker 2

So while I was trying to watch goblin music videos on YouTube, I came across a goblin history video.

Speaker 1

Oh, look at you.

Speaker 2

And it said that this was the etymology, coming from German, of gobold, which eventually just turns into kobold, which is very confusing because those are completely different races in D&D, kobolds being the little descendents subservience of dragons.

Speaker 1

We're going to actually talk about kobolt today and goblins.

Speaker 2

Kobolt Like the metal.

Speaker 1

Yes, exactly. According to the article from the Global Journal of Human Social Science, there are writings about goblins in France dating back to the 14th century And, in short, a goblin, in most of these Western European cultures, is considered a type of fey.

Speaker 2

Wait, wait, wait. I thought that the French goblins were called redcaps.

Speaker 1

That is a different type of sub-goblin.

Speaker 2

It's a sub-goblin.

Speaker 1

It's like a hobgoblin. It's like a secondary type of creature.

Speaker 2

Hobgoblins are a subset of goblins, yeah.

Speaker 1

I mean I don't know if that's a thousand percent right.

Speaker 2

I think there's a lot of goblins out there that'd be like hey, hold the phone, you're racist.

Speaker 1

There's a lot of different types of goblins True.

Speaker 2

You know what the last one I sent was going to be.

Speaker 1

We have now. one is probably a very outdated episode on the history of Celtic mythology. In that episode we talk a lot about different types of fey and how they're classified And it's if you remember right, it's very complicated and there's a lot of hierarchy to it And it depends It changes a ton depending on if you're in Ireland or the UK or you know Germany or France. It's all kind of very bespoke. But regardless of where the word goblin initially came from, what it really means now is an ugly fairy or a devil. quoting from that article quote they come from the folktales of France. They are believed to have emerged from the Pyrenees Mountains of Southwestern France, the dividing mountain range between France and Spain. After leaving the mountain, they spread throughout France and multiplied over Europe. After infesting Scandinavia they came to the British Isles.

Speaker 1

The native Celts of Britain called the invaders as Robin Goblin. The term hobgoblin derives from these invaders. The stories about these creatures spread throughout Europe. The reputation of the goblins became more sinister over the ages. Hobgoblin shortened to the goblin. end quote. Depending on the region that the folklore can be traced back to, the abilities and view of goblins change. At their best goblins are seen as mischievous and classified as household spirits. Household deities are usually thought to protect the home. They look after everyone in the family or a specific family member, if you're lucky enough. 1. Similar to a brownie from Scotland, a cobald in Germany, a taun-tu in Finland or a niece in Norway. 2.

Speaker 2

A taun-tu. What is a taun-tu?

Speaker 1

According to Wikipedia, it is a miniature mythological humanoid creature believed to live in the forest and in or near people's dwellings, similar to an elf or a gnome. 3. Oh, it's like a goblin. 4.

Speaker 2

Right, very good, 5. And what was the other? A niece 6.

Speaker 1

N-I-S-S-E Again. according to Wikipedia, a niece or a taun-tu is a mythological creature from Nordic folklore today typically associated with the winter solstice and the Christmas season. It's sort of like the original elf. 6. A little Christmas elf. 7. Christmas elf, yeah. 8. Wearing a knit cap in gray red or some other bright color, and they're generally described as being short and having a long white beard. 9.

Speaker 2

Okay, 10. And when do we So? these are the origins of goblins.

Speaker 1

These are the vast origins of goblins. We see across different cultures, that different regions, similar to when we do this shit for every topic. Different regions have their own versions. It's very hard to trace things back all the way because they populate throughout Europe and everyone has their own take on them. But these are just very early folklore examples of goblins in different cultures. 11.

Speaker 2

So you just mentioned that it's kind of hard to lock down the origin of this type of mythological creature because it's so widespread. But you also said that all different parts of Europe view it similar but different. Have you researched any origins that are based in Eastern countries?

Speaker 1

12. So there is the tengu in Japan, which is hard to say if it's one for one, but I think it's similar enough maybe to be representative. It's depicted as a short creature with a long nose and a red face, which is, according to Wikipedia today, one of really the defining characteristic. It can be traced back to Shinto belief, but it's kind of similar actually, because one thing we're going to talk about is that goblins are shapeshifters in a lot of Western Europe And in Japan the tengu really like appears in different ways, visually, across different works of art or historic texts. Sometimes it's a giant bird of prey. 13. So there really is a lot of variety. today it's depicted 14. So again, it's hard to be like. okay, this is the Japanese goblin. 15. But I think there's some overlap maybe in some of the folklore and the characteristics associated with it. 16.

Speaker 2

Well, i mean, i ask simply out of curiosity. I've been on kind of a kick for Japanese classical literature. 17. And there have been multiple references to goblins in these books. 18. But in just like colloquial phrases or just like in just like off the cuff comments. You know, apparently, if someone's really good at climbing, that that must, that guy must be a goblin in disguise. Apparently they're actually really associated with climbing, which is hilarious. 19.

Speaker 1

Well, i guess it makes sense if you can trace them back to, like mountainous regions 20.

Speaker 2

Yeah, there's like a big old, you know bear, bear, rockin' crag. It's like ah, this is where goblins dwell. If you're just acting crazy, you're either possessed by a demon or again it's actually just a goblin in disguise. I was just surprised. you know, i knew this was coming up and I keep hearing the word goblin as they just talk about it 21.

Speaker 1

Well, how old is that literature that you're reading? What years 22.

Speaker 2

What years 23. The one I'm reading now is from 1930. 24.

Speaker 1

Right. So that's not really that could. they could be borrowing from western cultures Like what I sort of think. if they're using the word goblin, then that's derivative from, you know, european, versus if they're using their own folklore, like the Tengu or something else, that's not called goblin 25.

Speaker 2

Well, 1930, but set in 1600s, Japan, written as a historical fiction To your point. they absolutely could be pulling in western influence and obviously a lot of this has been translated into English, right, so it's being translated.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it'd be interesting what the word in the original text is for that creature.

Speaker 2

Same idea where, like so many times, people call each other son of a bitch and I'm like is that?

Speaker 1

really a Japanese phrase? I don't know. No 26.

Speaker 2

But if you know what in the comments, let us know what. What's the Japanese? what is the classic Japanese phrase for calling someone a son of a bitch? 27.

Speaker 1

In the comments of this podcast 28. Right, so, at their best goblins are sort of like house spirits. 29. And at their worst, goblins are seen as pretty malevolent. 30. In some cultures they have magical powers, for example, what we just talked about, the ability to shape, shift 31.

Speaker 2

I mean at their worst, they are downright murderous beasts 31. Yeah.

Speaker 1

Or perhaps at their worst. they're a prog rock band from Italy 32. How dare you Abby 33. The term pop goblin can be traced back 34. Goblin fucking rocks, 35. Okay, i've never listened to goblin, except when I've seen those movies, i guess 36. I've never knowingly listened to goblin, so I can't comment on it 37.

Speaker 2

You've literally had goblin on and you're been like, wow, what's?

Speaker 1

this? 38. I don't think that that's true. 39. Okay, the term hobgoblin can be traced back to at least 1530. 41. This is a loaded example, but we'll talk about why later on. the best way to really visualize a hobgoblin versus a goblin is to think about the depiction of Dobby in Harry Potter. 41. Hobgoblins are small domestic creatures that can be banished by giving them a piece of clothing, though it would be an insult to do so. They're also similar to brownies, but they're kind of more of a wild card creature. They're little. again, they have this mischievous edge to them that other spirits don't always. They're known to help out with chores around the house, small jobs while the family sleeps. In an exchange, they only need to be fed. but again, they're going to kind of take feeding themselves into their own hands, right, so you might hypothetically wake up and your Christmas roast is gone. 41. Billy Blind is a creature found in ballads from England and Lowland Scotland. In these ballads he often acts as an advisor to the main character, and again, billy Blind is a hobgoblin 50.

Speaker 2

In the one video that I watched while trying to find goblin videos, they also mentioned the difference between goblin and hobgoblin. But there was a third category of just hob And I was a little confused by this. It seems that hobbs are just benevolent house spirits that are very similar to what you're describing and just like help out with house chores, guard the household. People would try to pray to the hobbs to get them to. you know, help out in their household.

Speaker 1

In their toilets.

Speaker 2

And maybe if they had an oracle.

Speaker 1

Let's start praying to the hobbs.

Speaker 2

But yeah, I guess if they did it incorrectly they would summon a hobgoblin instead, Which?

Speaker 1

which was like the bad boy of the goblin family.

Speaker 2

I guess, well, I guess so My understanding of hobgoblin versus goblin. There's a much bigger line And while they were similar, they had some like very fundamental differences, Hobgoblin being a mercenary out only for money And goblin being a absolutely insane scientist out to kill spider-man.

Speaker 1

I see You're making a joke.

Speaker 2

No, that's not a joke. I mean sorry, spoilers, you're talking about this in terms of comic books. It's Norman Osborn.

Speaker 1

Right, we're not quite to that section in time yet.

Speaker 2

Right, but hobgoblin predated goblin, which was interesting, the whole idea of goblin.

Speaker 1

Are you talking about from Spider-Man?

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

Okay, i just want to make that really clear. You're not talking about from ancient folklore, you're talking about from the Spider-Man comic books.

Speaker 2

Right, but they both ride gliders And that's the confusing part And they throw the pumpkins and everything.

Speaker 1

When you say goblin, you mean green goblin.

Speaker 2

Well, yeah, green goblin.

Speaker 1

Willem Dafoe.

Speaker 2

Well, now we're out of the comics, but yeah, now we're into the Toby McGuire movies Did he reprise his role in? was there a green? was there a William Dafoe goblin in Far From Home.

Speaker 1

That would be a question for you, my friend.

Speaker 2

I don't think so. I don't remember. No, no, no, it wasn't. Toby's villain was Doc Ock.

Speaker 1

In Ireland, the legends of the puka are somewhat similar to the characteristics of the goblins that we know and love, Though puka is not just of Irish descent. there are similar legends across the Channel Islands and the United Kingdom.

Speaker 2

The puka looks nothing like a goblin.

Speaker 1

Let me, let me let me make my case. So, first of all, there are writings of this creature as early as the eighth century And in some legends, the puka is a changeling similar to the shape-shifting abilities that we see with goblins.

Speaker 2

So this is an interesting point. Why would you need to be a shape shifter if you were permanently invisible? That's a philosophical question, I suppose.

Speaker 1

I don't think you would be both. I think you would either be permanently invisible or you would be a shape shifter.

Speaker 2

Okay, pukas are permanently invisible.

Speaker 1

They're not permanently invisible. Permanently invisible, that's not true.

Speaker 2

They're a six-foot-tall bunny rabbit.

Speaker 1

They're shape shifters. They can shift into bunny rabbits, but the only way anyone would know that is if they saw them. We really need to bring on some kind of expert to this podcast.

Speaker 2

So you, I think I feel that niche That's a good point How If a tree falls in a forest, you know. How would Jimmy Stewart know what a puka looks like if he's never seen one?

Speaker 1

You're really making me fact check a lot of things today. What are you talking?

Speaker 2

about. Well, he has a painting over his mantle of his best friend, Harvey, who is a puka in the movie Harvey, And it's yeah, it's a giant bunny rabbit.

Speaker 1

How would he be? No, I know that, but I'm not convinced that they're permanently invisible.

Speaker 2

No one else can see them.

Speaker 1

Are you just again? are you just going off the lore from the movie Harvey? Or are you going off puka in general and the mythology around it? I mean, that's unimportant. Our listeners are really going to have a field day with you today.

Speaker 2

But there's also Donnie Darko with their puka.

Speaker 1

Yeah, who's visible?

Speaker 2

No, he's not only in dreams and shit.

Speaker 1

No, he's. He's visible to Jake Gyllenhaal.

Speaker 2

During his space time continuum leaps.

Speaker 1

Yeah, and he's visible to the audience. Some regions in Ireland think of the puka as a helpful fairy, others as a malevolent one. We also see a depiction in Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream, where the character of Puck fits the description In Sheridan LeFanu's 1861 novel which I'm going to mispronounce Ultaar de Lacy, a legend of Capricullen children encounter a puka tower. But perhaps most famously for modern audiences is the play and later film remake Harvey, starring, as Alan already said, james Stewart as a bunny inspired by a puka.

Speaker 2

Also worth noting.

Speaker 1

Berserker, berserker. We also see a puka named Puck in the popular graphic novel series Berserker. I was waiting to see if you were going to mention that on your own.

Speaker 2

First off, the American release is just Berserker, Not Berserker. And I have a friend who who's native language is Spanish. He's always known as Berserker. Interesting.

Speaker 1

So, very.

Speaker 2

I mean also, yeah, Berserker would make perfect sense for the character. So, yeah, perhaps it's it very well could be the more appropriate translation from the Japanese. However, the character of Puck and yeah, it's like this little sprite fairy thing that you know it's they're mostly there for comedic relief, sure, and to add just like this tiny bit of light into a very, very bleak and dark world. Oof, but still, bad things happened to Puck too Didn't make any of like the anime releases or anything. They just omitted it because it's just so out of tone with the rest of the piece.

Speaker 1

Interesting. There's a characteristic of the puka that reminds me a lot and stick with me, alan of the Mothman sightings in Point Pleasant, west Virginia. There's an understanding that a puka shows up just before disaster strikes. quoting now from folklorist Owen Harding, quote On Wednesday 1st November 2006, about 7.30 PM, dennis O'Rourke, a businessman and investor originally from Cork City but then living in Malahide County, dublin, believes he met puka.

Speaker 1

A strange and well-dressed man was outside a front gate of Dennis's home. This man struck up a conversation with Dennis, claiming he had known him for years. He went on to tell Dennis about his family true facts that he could not have known, going back three generations, and how over years they had lost and gained money. This man, who did not give a name, also said that family finances were based on more than just heritage. They were also subject to greater economy of a nation. Over the next couple of years, o'rourke witnessed not merely fiscal fall of country but his own financial ruin, including his business, his family home and two other houses he had invested in. end quote.

Speaker 1

In Germany there are legends of the Earl King, a forest-dwelling creature known to kill children who play in the woods for too long with a single touch. Jacob Grimm traced this back to the Scandinavian Elkong, or King of the Elves. Also of German legend is the Kobald, an interesting deviation from other creatures in this vein. The Kobald is often thought to be invisible, as you hinted at earlier, invisible, kind of like what you thought the puka was Invisible, invisible.

Speaker 2

Kobolds aren't invisible, they're sneaky, they're thought of to be invisible. And they have pack tactics.

Speaker 1

Though they can appear as fire a person or an animal if they wish to, but they can also be invisible.

Speaker 2

Kobolds are also notoriously sycophantic.

Speaker 1

Tell us more.

Speaker 2

Well, they just frickin' simp so hard over there dragging overlords.

Speaker 1

Who taught you the word simp?

Speaker 2

The internet.

Speaker 1

You learned that from Reddit.

Speaker 2

Maybe, maybe. They're basically bootlickers that do whatever for their glorious leader, that is, literally bend over backwards to just try to get the smallest shred of approval from their glorious leader.

Speaker 1

Is bootlicker an offensive term? Bootlicker Yeah.

Speaker 2

It's an insult, I wouldn't say it's offensive. It's offensive to the person you're saying, but not to society as a whole. Kind of like saying hey, you're an ass kisser.

Speaker 1

Depictions of the kobold can be traced back to the 1200s, a pagan belief that survived the Catholicism of Germany. Fun fact, the word kobolt comes from kobolt. Medieval miners blamed the kobold for the poisonous elements that ruined other mined materials.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I don't eat that shit. That's bad for you.

Speaker 1

I want you to pay close attention to this one, Alan, because this is going to come into play at a later episode. The Trasgu comes from Spanish and northern Portuguese lore, specifically Austrian lore.

Speaker 2

Okay.

Speaker 1

It's described as a goblin-like domestic creature known for being nervous and tricky. The creature often has a limp and red clothes and a red hat.

Speaker 2

So this is the red hat.

Speaker 1

This is the Trasgu.

Speaker 2

Red hats are different.

Speaker 1

Well, you start to see right kind of like the similarities across regions. Often he is thought to be responsible for night sounds and he has a similar energy to that of a poltergeist. Legend says that the best way to exercise a trascu from your home is to give him an impossible task that he can never actually complete.

Speaker 2

Hey trascu, before you go home for the night, just please fix the US health care system.

Speaker 1

Exactly. The interesting thing is the translations of Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings often use trascu in place of troll or orc. What?

Speaker 2

I mean, I understand in Harry Potter, but in Lord of the Rings, really.

Speaker 1

We're gonna get into the Lord of the Rings piece. That's a whole nother thing to talk about.

Speaker 2

Because that gets convoluted. I tell you what.

Speaker 1

A duende is largely from Spain and has many variations, one of which being a trascu. The same characteristics are present here A house-dwelling spirit, also known as Master of the House.

Speaker 2

One last thing I would like to say about kobolds and goblins.

Speaker 1

Sure.

Speaker 2

So, according to my own research, kobolds and goblins have an antagonistic relationship. They do not get along and often require a zwart to act as an intermediary.

Speaker 1

What's a zwart?

Speaker 2

A sub-three-foot humanoid somewhere between a goblin and a kobold.

Speaker 1

So they're the mediator, just because there's like the mesh of the two.

Speaker 2

The half-breed, the half-breed.

Speaker 1

Yeah, most people of modern times speaking of would have been exposed to goblins through various fantasy depictions in film and different book series, most notably The Lord of the Rings, the Hobbit and Harry Potter, and even in Dungeons and Dragons, like you mentioned.

Speaker 2

What.

Speaker 1

JK Rowling has been called out many times for her racist, transphobic and homophobic characters.

Speaker 2

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Speaker 1

Storylines and tweets.

Speaker 2

She does way more calling out than anyone does calling out on her.

Speaker 1

Well, that's not true, but she is problematic. On his podcast in 2022, john Stewart called her out. Quote. It was one of those things where I saw it on the screen and I was expecting the crowd to be like holy shit, she did not, in a wizarding world, just throw Jews in there to run the fucking underground bank. End quote. Quoting from a Forbes article by Danny De Placido. Quote. While the books absolutely echoed anti-Semitic tropes, the Harry Potter films took the racist association a step further, with the Goblin's appearance, particularly indistinguishable from a Nazi propaganda poster. Worse was the star of David Pattern, clearly visible on the floor of Gringotts Bank. This was a feature of the filming location, london's High Commission of Australia, and did not appear in subsequent films. End quote.

Speaker 2

Wait, it was already in the location.

Speaker 1

It was in the location, but they didn't remove it out.

Speaker 2

I see, so it was a natural feature that they did not cover up Where they shot, yeah. I see.

Speaker 1

Placido argues that while some of these characteristics are intrinsic to Goblin folklore, no legends illustrate them as bankers. In an article on hayalmacom, evelyn Frick points out that this issue isn't specific to Harry Potter. There has been a longstanding issue with how Goblins have been portrayed throughout folklore and history. Quoting from her article, quote At the same time that Goblin folklore was emerging in medieval Europe, common anti-Semitic stereotypes and myths like blood libel decide, jews' association with money and what Jews looked like were also beginning to form.

Speaker 1

Beyond the violence and displacement this would cause for European Jewish communities in the Middle Ages, anti-semitism also had the effect of spawning art. By the 12th century, the stereotypical Jewish look was established In primarily woodcuts and drawings. Jews were often portrayed as having an oversized and crooked nose and either appearance to be demon-like or consorting with the devil himself. This was done with the aim of making Jews easily identifiable, as well as seemingly as ugly, grotesque and subhuman and evil, so Christians would not want to associate with them. When you compare the illustrations of Jewish people from this time period with depictions of goblins from this time period, you cannot deny the similarities.

Speaker 2

I think it's just like once you get a certain amount of money, you just get this like curse put on you that causes all this stupid shit to start coming out of your mouth. Happens to them all, it seems. every billionaire just cannot keep their fucking mouth shut and just gets so and like just has to just start spewing garbage.

Speaker 1

You're talking about JK Rowling.

Speaker 2

Yeah, and other billionaires.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I actually just had this conversation with someone yesterday about the Trumps of the world, the musks of the world. You just get to a certain level where you don't have somebody checking you.

Speaker 2

I was reading a thing where someone put it very succinctly about how it's not money that corrupts you. It's that once you lose to your point the checks and balances, it just money allows you to just be your absolute self. Once you remove consequences, you lose your empathy.

Speaker 1

You get this like inflated sense of pompous assness. Yeah, exactly, but like sort of this small bubble of a world, because you're not getting. if you might be getting pushback from people on Twitter, but you're not getting pushback from those in your circle. So you start to think that I don't know, i'm not a psychologist, but it's just kind of crazy. It's also crazy that people like Trump and Musk become the every we don't need to get into all this.

Speaker 2

Yeah, what the heck Abby Way to make this podcast political.

Speaker 1

Yes, I agree. I think JK Rowling has tons of problems, but the anti-Semitic history of Goblin spans far before she walked into the picture.

Speaker 2

Right, she's nothing but an appropriator.

Speaker 1

Well, what she really is is appropriating problematic tropes that existed, right. Not appropriating, i guess, as much as perpetuating, but a thousand percent It's not like she invented. she wasn't the first person to say goblins and Jews, you know, like that comparison, but she is someone who had extreme power and did so in a way that really got into the brains of modern society, right?

Speaker 2

Yeah, why couldn't she just like lean into the other stereotypes that, like goblins are really good rock climbers?

Speaker 1

That's right. The belief in goblins predates this anti-Semitic wave, meaning right that people believed in goblins way before there was this association with Jewish people, with the exception of knockers or tommy knockers, which can be traced back to Cornwall and Devon in the United Kingdom. Tommy knockers are peaceful goblins that dwell in minds and are thought of as the ghosts of Jewish people. They're known to not be able to be in the presence of a cross, similar folklore to that of a vampire. So you can see that association right Like oh my God, because they're not Christian, they're evil, they're demonic, they're vampiric.

Speaker 2

It's like having to check the boxes of, like you know, Hispanic or non-Hispanic.

Speaker 1

Christian or non-Christian, or evil?

Speaker 2

Christian or vampire?

Speaker 1

Think isn't making the point that all portrayals of goblins, or even goblins themselves, are anti-Semitic, but there were clearly some historic wires crossed during certain time periods that resulted in this problematic imagery, and it's up to us, as modern audiences, to help set this right And be mindful about where we're spending our money.

Speaker 2

We all should be mindful of how we spend our money, but everyone wants to play Hogwarts Legacy, so my best advice for all of you feeling conflicted is to steal it. Just take to the high seas.

Speaker 1

Be a pirate. You're a pirate, i've heard it's not that good anyway.

Speaker 2

What.

Speaker 1

Who are you talking?

Speaker 2

to.

Speaker 1

Tolkien's depiction of goblins in The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings is actually a bit different than how the creatures are portrayed in the movies. You ready, Alan, This is I'm going to blow your mind.

Speaker 2

Please do.

Speaker 1

According to the CBR article by Ben Hardwick quote within the Hobbit novel, the term goblin is used multiple times, notably within the Misty Mountains where Bilbo finds Gollum. But the Lord of the Rings revealed that orcs and goblins are one and the same And their descriptions would often go back and forth between the two. For example, as Saruman creates his army of Uruk-hai in Isengard, they are first described as four goblin soldiers of greater stature.

Speaker 2

Four goblin soldiers.

Speaker 1

Four goblin soldiers of greater stature. Number four Number five, despite it later being said that they are a stronger breed of orc.

Speaker 2

Okay, so this is where it gets confusing.

Speaker 1

This is where.

Speaker 2

Oh yeah, not cobalt versus. No, everything is really cut and dry so far. This is where it gets confusing, because you look at the depictions on screen. We're talking about the movies now. I've been reading the books and I'm trying to think if there was any reference to goblins in Lord of the Rings, outside of just orcs.

Speaker 1

Well, here's so. there's one time that we actually see goblins portrayed as a separate species in the Lord of the Rings, in the minds of Moria, but Hardwick points out that they are visibly different from orcs, which we see throughout the rest of the series. We see orcs the whole time, meaning. Peter Jackson made the mistake of treating them as a different fantasy creature, as goblins, and not, as Tolkien intended, as orcs.

Speaker 2

Okay, so it's just like a different breed of orc.

Speaker 1

So you know that scene when they're in the minds and they all run across the ceilings. In Tolkien's book they're meant to be orcs, but they clearly come across as something totally different.

Speaker 2

Right right, because they're just a bunch of archers, Which was.

Speaker 1

Peter Jackson's kind of like creative liberty. Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 2

However, they are still all part of the same species. Because they're close now we're basing this off science Because they are close enough genetically right, because their presence still triggers Sting the Glow.

Speaker 1

The goblins in that scene trigger Sting. Is that what you're saying?

Speaker 2

Yeah, so like which one? is it Marry or Pippin? I can never keep them straight. Pushes the guy down the well. The skeleton.

Speaker 1

Yep.

Speaker 2

Pippin In the movie. You know everything's fine and they hear the drums. everyone's panicking.

Speaker 1

Well, there's also orcs in that scene, in addition to goblins.

Speaker 2

Are there orcs? I thought there was just a shit ton of goblins.

Speaker 1

There's like that big troll, they have a cave troll.

Speaker 2

Yes, but I really thought that they were mostly just goblins.

Speaker 1

Hm could be.

Speaker 2

We'll have to rewatch it for historical accuracy.

Speaker 1

We just watched it.

Speaker 2

We watched Lord of the Rings non-stop in this house. Kudos to you, Mr Jackson.

Speaker 1

Why? because you fucked up.

Speaker 2

No, because he still made the goblins trigger Sting.

Speaker 1

They're orcs. They're just different looking orcs. Hypothetically. We'll have to fact check that.

Speaker 2

Are there any orcs out? like no, tolkien invented the orc, didn't he? You are correct, first time all day If this was the first iteration of the orc. The orc is technically a subset of goblins. That's right, not the other way around, correct? There you go.

Speaker 1

There you go.

Speaker 2

Because again, that's science.

Speaker 1

We should amend everything in the dictionary to point that way.

Speaker 2

Sting just has an arrow.

Speaker 1

We cannot talk about goblins without talking about Hellier. Hellier is a documentary series available on YouTube and Amazon Prime starring paranormal investigators Greg and Dana Newkirk, directed and filmed by Carl Pfeiffer and featuring Connor Randall. Season one specifically centers around a report the team receives from an individual in Hellier, kentucky, claiming that Hobgoblins were terrorizing his family. We're going to talk a lot about Hellier in the next episode as well, but Hellier is a modern documentary series, probably the most modern documentary series we have about goblins, right And.

Speaker 2

I mean, yeah, of the massive library of goblin documentary series, I'd say Hellier is absolutely at the forefront.

Speaker 1

And so one goblin encounter that comes up in Hellier is the Hopkinsville Goblins case. On August 21st 1955, 12 individuals, three of which were kids, claimed to have encountered aliens on their farm in Kentucky. And I do want to say that I've read many articles about this and every single one had a different adult to child ratio. But there were at least 12 individuals. I'm not sure exactly how many were adults, but the majority were adults.

Speaker 2

It gets confusing because they were all there to celebrate their 18th birthday.

Speaker 1

The incident took place on the Sutton farm and is still one of the most detailed and bizarre paranormal encounters of recent history. During the evening of August 21st, billy Ray Taylor, a family friend of the Sutton's, was getting water out back of the house when he claimed to witness a silvery object land from the sky. He described it as quote real, bright, with an exhaust, all the colors of the rainbow. end quote. Initially, the Sutton family didn't take Tyler's claims to heart until a few more people started to witness something strange. The creatures were described as being about three feet tall and had quote oversized head almost perfectly round, its arms extended almost to the ground, its hands had talons and its oversized eyes glowed with a yellowish light. The body gave off an eerie shimmer in the light of the night's new moon, they said, as if made of silver metal. end quote.

Speaker 1

That's cool, very cool. This encounter escalated further when those inside the Sutton farmhouse started shooting at the creatures who they claimed flipped and kind of scampered off, like did some kind of gymnastic movement and scampered off into the night.

Speaker 2

I see.

Speaker 1

Everyone eventually ran for their cars and headed to the police station. Coming from the historycom article quote. in the following days, after radio stations and newspapers, including the New York Times, reported the incident, hundreds of curiosity seekers descended onto the farm, often ridiculing the Sutton's as ignorant or fraudulent. When no trespassing signs proved useless at discouraging them, the family tried charging admission 50 cents for entering the grounds, $1 for information, $10 for taking a picture. After that, skeptics blasted them as fortune seeking fabulous. As the Kelly story spread into the world, it took on a life of its own. The number of little men grew to a dozen or more. A few years later the little metallic men were conflated with an Eastern Kentucky woman's report of a flying saucer and a six foot tall man in green, helping launch the myth of little green men, end quote. I also believe that there was kind of a shootout involved, that the Sutton family members shot at the goblins. The police were unable to find evidence, but they did note that the Sutton farm was completely sober, meaning nobody was drinking at the time.

Speaker 2

No one claimed to be drinking.

Speaker 1

Correct. But they also all went to the police station after no one was noticeably intoxicated. It wasn't like they were kind of hallucinating on. I mean, who knows, maybe they were. A local radio station host, interviewed the family and created renderings of the creatures that have now lived on an infamy. He noted the consistency between family members, that every single person who kind of came to the host and described what they saw, that they all ended up with a very similar looking picture. So back to the Hellier series.

Speaker 1

One of the things I really love about the New Kirk's as paranormal investigators is the concept, which we've talked about in this podcast many times, that all phenomena can be related. All these paranormal things can really be part of the same puzzle. This came up a lot on our Bigfoot series, that paranormal investigators can be very compartmentalized. You have ghost hunters, bigfoot hunters et cetera. There is this swirl here where the Hopkinsville case can be dismissed as aliens and not relevant. But if you kind of take away those labels, maybe suddenly goblins and aliens throughout history have intersected. Maybe what we think of as goblins has historically been aliens or vice versa.

Speaker 2

Once you start thinking about how the idea of Bigfoot being an extra dimensional creature from outer space a lot more makes sense, which is a crazy thing to say.

Speaker 1

Or about Mothman being maybe not a cryptid giant moth, but being some sort of interdimensional warning system, right?

Speaker 2

Sure yeah.

Speaker 1

Which also could be the same thing as aliens, which also could be the same thing as goblins.

Speaker 2

So is this a good time to talk about goblins from outer space?

Speaker 1

Yes, it's a great time. What do you want to say about that?

Speaker 2

Thank you for your permission. I like this, i like that, i like that idea.

Speaker 1

Have you read about it? Or are you just going to give us some improv material right now?

Speaker 2

My sources I cannot reveal at this time. No, i haven't read about it. So I watched a lot of goblin movies getting ready for this. And again, hellier is a great series for literally anybody that just thinks paranormal stuff is neat. You don't even have to believe in it, and that's actually a big selling point for me, because being a skeptic watching this series unlike so so many other paranormal hunting shows where the littlest thing happens and everyone goes like, oh my god, that's it, that's the spirit, we have our proof. Every time something maybe or maybe not, supernatural happens, they treat it very, very matter of factly. Here is the situation, here were all the factors that went into it. Sure, these are the explanations, but on the paranormal side, which we're choosing to believe, here is what this other thing could mean. And if you follow this line of thought, all these other pieces kind of click into place, not saying that's exactly what it is, probably saying the opposite actually, but it's kind of a stepping stone to put together a bigger picture.

Speaker 1

I'm going to say this. For many years I have been a big fan of Hellier.

Speaker 2

And it took me a little convincing to first watch.

Speaker 1

It took Alan a little convincing And he's skeptical And I knew a paranormal thing isn't as much his thing as it is mine.

Speaker 2

There's a lot of baggage I bring when watching ghost hunting stuff.

Speaker 1

And he loved it. He was eager to keep watching it And I felt very validated that you were as into it as you were.

Speaker 2

It's because it's well done.

Speaker 1

Well, yeah, it's absolutely well done.

Speaker 2

It's such a delicate subject matter that is very rarely handled with delicacy. It's so easy to turn off audiences by just turning into the Discovery Channel and just being like aliens You just can't, you just can't without losing your audience. Granted, there is a massive market for that kind of media, but I'm not that audience. But one of the reasons why I just Hellier really clicked with me was because everything was dealt with practicality and plausibility. Yeah, they're definitely taking some leaps of faith to tie things together. That as an abstract, outside of the paranormal it's like no, those things don't have anything to do with each other. But in the context, yeah, it works. Yeah, and all things considered, it tells a really good story. Even if you're not looking at this as a paranormal documentary, if you were to just watch this from a movie standpoint, it tells a really wonderful story.

Speaker 1

Well, it's very yeah to your point. It's very, very well made. Carl is a filmmaker, so it makes sense that he's.

Speaker 2

Oh yeah, But these are all made by filmmakers, but this one is very. A rare gem. Yeah, even if you're just watching it for just the cinematography and the story, it tells a really fun little mystery.

Speaker 1

The thing about Hellier that has always intrigued me and kind of is my pitch to people who are not into the paranormal when I'm trying to get them to watch it is that whether or not you believe in the paranormal pieces that they explore whatever, put it aside The hook for me is that somebody in Hellier, kentucky or wherever, but claiming to be from Hellier Kentucky, emailed them in this very bizarre way And then this other person emailed them And I'm not going to give away the whole thing because everyone should go and watch it, but these emails are real things that exist. I believe that they exist. I believe that they receive these emails. They are not. Found footage, ghost hunting, things Like that is super concrete And it's such an alluring mystery to me.

Speaker 1

Exactly when you described it as a mystery, it's like who the fuck? And that's one of those things where it's like the serial podcast, where you just can't let it go. You're like who did this? Why did they do it? How did this happen? And to me, those emails still are kind of like the thing that And I've watched Hellier many times And I'm sure I'll watch it many more And a lot of it is that It's like this kind of came to their doorstep And I'm very grateful that they decided to turn it into this thing that we could all go on the journey with them. But who the fuck sent these emails? I need to know.

Speaker 2

They're pretty cryptic.

Speaker 1

So bringing this full circle now, the interesting thing here is that the description of the creatures, both from the Hellier case, which takes place in Hellier, kentucky, and the Hopkinsville case, which also takes place in Kentucky, are nearly identical. So you have many years between these two things. They're both these totally random standalone things. One is thought of to be aliens, one is thought of to be question mark, but the descriptions of these creatures are identical. And then you get into the caves And so again, i don't want to give Hellier away. Everyone, just go watch it.

Speaker 2

Hellier was a great stepping stone for it I'm sure there's a name for it The fact that the theory about all pernual being connected.

Speaker 1

Right, i'm sure there is The New Kirk theory.

Goblins as Ultra Terrestrial Entities

Speaker 2

We'll get back to you on that, definitively on the next episode. However, the idea of goblins being aliens And I use what was the term- Ultra terrestrial. Ultra terrestrial, thank you. So being from another dimension, another space time, another planet doesn't matter. They're just not from here and now. That at least helps tie together a lot of different things How there's these sightings of these sort of similar creatures from the beginning of recorded history to you know, for all intents and purposes. You get similar type creatures in all walks in life around the planet.

Speaker 1

Yep.

Speaker 2

You know, for me I'm like OK, no, i get it. And then, once we start talking about films, some films delve or just lean very heavily into this. It makes for really good horror and science fiction too.

Speaker 1

If I was going to have a tagline for our podcast which isn't the history of horror, it would be like the thing that happens with every episode that we do, whether it's something like vampires or goblins or something like cannibalism or whatever, But like killer clowns.

Speaker 1

There's always this global tie-in And of course there's reasons for that. Right, you have something that can start in one culture and ancient mythology and it can make its way across the globe. But it's always kind of mind blowing to me that these it's not just like, in some cases, the legend and a tale, but in a lot of these places it's this belief in a thing And there's sightings And there's you know, think about ghost sightings and all these things mermaids. It's just really interesting And it makes you think what if they, you know, back when they were writing down this folklore initially? you know what if they weren't there worth sightings? What if we didn't doubt everybody in what their personal experiences were? What if we chose to believe them, knowing that some people hallucinate and some people have dreams and some people have this? but like what if we, instead of choosing to think that all of these people who have these experiences are crazy? what if we trust people?

Speaker 1

You know, like I was in a car yesterday driving home from a shoot And we were in the car for hours with a bunch of people in a van And every single person. We just started telling our personal paranormal experiences And every single person in the van had a personal paranormal experience. But nobody like we don't. You know it's such a taboo thing to believe in the paranormal, but everybody either has one, or their mom has one, or their aunt has one or whatever. And like, three people in the van were like oh, and my cousin is a medium And you know, and it's just like. But still as a society we're so close minded instead of at least choosing to say I don't know, i don't understand.

Speaker 1

You know, the kind of the moth man John Keel line is still one of my favorite ways to describe the paranormal. Where are the cockroaches? Like? think of explaining algebra to a cockroach. The paranormal is algebra and we are the cockroaches And we just haven't quite figured it out yet. But everybody has some kind of experience. Everybody's got something. Maybe not you but everybody else.

Speaker 1

Hopping across the pond quickly to Scotland. There's an estate called Yesterhouse which is near Gifford, and there's an audio interview from the 1970s where a woman named Agnes McGaw claims to have seen a goblin on the property during an archaeological picnic. The lecturer was describing a building on the property called Goblin Hall, also known as Goblin Hall. When Agnes claims to have seen what she describes as a quote we man who was watching the group with some trickster energy she explains the lore of Goblin Hall. Quote neither hammer nor tools were heard in the building of it And when the people rose in the morning, the Goblin Hall was there, supposedly built by the goblins end. Quote Agnes wasn't the only witness. Another woman at the event also claimed to see the wee man. Here's the thing. So Yestercastle on the grounds of Yesterhouse dates back to sometime before 1267. So it's quite old. The original inhabitant was a man named Sir Hugo de Gifford And he was a rumored necromancer and magician In addition to his work as the guardian to Alexander the Third from Scotland.

Speaker 1

Goblin Hall is a subterranean structure underneath Yester Castle. Cirque Hugo was also known as the Wizard of Yester. It was believed that Cirque Hugo had made a pact with a devil that allowed him to summon an army of hobgoblins in order to execute his orders. It was also believed that his army of hobgoblins built Goblin Hall. Here's a quote from the 1500s from Walter Bauer. Quote The death occurred of Hugh Gifford, lord of Yester.

Speaker 1

Old tales tell that his castle, or at least his cellar and keep, were wrought by witchcraft, for there is a mischievous underground cavern, wonderfully constructed and extending under a large area of ground that is popularly called Bow Hall. Quote. When you look at pictures of Goblin Hall, you really understand why some of the rumors may have started. It's incredibly gothic and dramatic looking. It's kind of like a almost like a Viking Hall, but underground.

Speaker 1

According to a BBC article from 2021, the castle was closed because of stone thefts. The stone that was stolen was from a support wall and there are concerns not only about the loss of history but as it's protected site, but also stability and safety. Jumping ahead a little bit to the 1950s, there's a legend in Pennsylvania called the Goblin Scarecrow truly a horrifying creature. According to Vampire Universe by Jonathan Mayberry, goblin Scarecrow's were first reported in the 1950s At least that's when they were first recorded. This legend seems to be concentrated in Potter County in Pennsylvania, a northern region that borders western New York. Goblin Scarecrow's have jack-o-lanterns for heads, gloved and clawed hands and ragged clothing. The sighting from the 1950s came from hunters who encountered one in the wild and claimed that it chased them.

Speaker 2

But this is just the thing that farmers put in their fields.

Speaker 1

Right, but think of one coming to life.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that's scary.

Speaker 1

The Goblin Scarecrow seems to be related to Goblins through its name, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

Speaker 2

Okay.

Speaker 1

Finally, Alan, have you heard of the Goblins of Detroit?

Speaker 2

No.

Speaker 1

According to a medium article by AL Treadwell, detroit has its own Goblin cryptid, specific to the Gross Point suburb.

Speaker 2

That's exciting. What does it look like?

Speaker 1

The Goblin Horseman or Lelutin, a horned creature, allegedly steals local horses and rides them until exhaustion kicks in. Essentially he kind of rides them to death. Allegedly, lelutin was a known entity. The town's folks would draw crosses on their livestock to keep the animal safe, which is kind of a callback to that anti-Semitic Tommy knockers who are afraid of crosses. Right When Jock's Jocko-La Esperance moved to the area, he was perhaps a little too vocal and bragged about his incredible horses and his own equestrian skills. As payback, no one in the town warned him of the Goblin Horseman and Jocko had to learn the hard way.

Speaker 2

What does the horseman do? I know he runs down his horses.

Speaker 1

He steals your horses and rides them to death, until they die.

Speaker 2

Okay, so he encountered this person.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

And.

Speaker 1

And he stole his horses and rode them to death.

Speaker 2

Okay, no, it just seems like he's mean to horses, he's not mean to people.

Speaker 1

Yeah, but at that time your horses are part of your wealth.

Speaker 2

Sure.

Speaker 1

They're like your cars.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

But they're living.

Speaker 2

So they're even more. He's a horse, thief.

Speaker 1

He's a horse killer.

Speaker 2

He got horsejacked.

Speaker 1

Horse murderer.

Speaker 2

Yeah, he takes them. Okay, sure Yeah.

Speaker 1

It's pretty upsetting, it is upsetting.

Speaker 2

Who finds the horses?

Speaker 1

Dad, in the fields, the locals.

Speaker 2

The locals? Well, probably the locals the next town over, unless he's like doing fucking loops in these tiny towns.

Speaker 1

Yeah, that's right, rides them up to Canada.

Speaker 2

Where The only thing I'm trying to peg down is where does the trope come from of Goblin's hoarding treasure? So Because it's not JK Rowling, it happened way before that, because I'm thinking about video games and everything And how, like Goblins and you know, collecting gold, like being gold fiends and hoarding treasure and everything that predates Harry Potter by a lot.

Speaker 1

So I'll say this when I was researching Goblins, i didn't find any descriptions of Goblins that talked about treasure. really, when you look up leprechauns right from Ireland, that's a thing. They are treasure hoarding creatures. They are at the end of the rainbow. They want the gold. That's like the whole thing.

Speaker 2

Okay, after a little bit of Googling I didn't get a clear cut answer. What I did find, however, was that there has been So on TVTropescom Since 2000,. Goblins have been depicted as obsessed with wealth, hoarding money and being like swindly merchants and everything. I guess that does actually line up with JK Rowling.

Speaker 1

Wires could have gotten crossed earlier in history. I don't know a clear cut answer, but Well, it does also line up, i don't think she was the first person to say to do that.

Speaker 2

Well, no, this does also start to line up with the beginning of big 3D games, where you have these like big, open fantasy worlds and there's a trope of just having Goblins be merchants, so just like they are being obsessed with commerce as well as being tinkerers, making devices and stuff. Yeah, you see that It was also perpetuated a lot by D&D, where these tropes kind of got laid into heavily because it says right in the stat descriptions these are characteristics of this type of creature. But no, i'm surprised. I really thought that Goblins and wealth was going to be a very historical thing, and that's based off what limited googling I could do. I didn't find anything like that.

Speaker 1

Again when I've been researching this, they're like household helper spirits. It's nothing about gold. And if you even think about the Lord of the Rings, right like Tolkien depicts them as orcs, like there's nothing to do with the economy or money, you know that's not like. again, i'm not saying JK Rowling started this, but I don't think it's really like in the nature of the creature.

Speaker 2

when you look at mythology, Well, hang on The Goblin and I'm basing this simply off the depictions because it's never clarified in Lord of the Rings. When Frodo is captured by the orcs and brought wherever, to that little tower thing, the Goblin is the one that takes the Mithril vest off of Frodo And he's like eyeing it and it's all shiny. He wants to keep it And then the other orc says you can't keep that. Everything goes to the eye along with the rest, and they start fighting over the shiny thing And that's why it meets back on the menu, boys.

Speaker 1

Right, right. No, i think that's a really great point. You know, we just sort of blindly and I'm saying this as a society we can perpetuate these things because like, oh it's, you know from this book or this whatever, without really questioning the origins of it, and I think that's a really good point. Okay, there is one story from Charles Dickens. Alan, did you know that our friend Charles Dickens wrote a goblin story? No he wrote a story called The Story of the Goblins Who Stole a Sexton in 1836 as part of the Pickwick Papers.

Speaker 2

Were they trying to become seafarers?

Speaker 1

What's a sexton?

Speaker 2

What's a sexton? Yeah, you should really ask your parents. No, your father's a Navy man. It's a thing that measures the horizon with the stars and it helps you give. it's how you measure. I don't know if it's longitude and latitude, but it's definitely one of them And it helps for global positioning when at sea.

Speaker 1

I also want to touch on a few important films that depict goblins that we haven't really discussed yet. One horror film that demonstrates the subterranean aspect of goblin lore really well is a modern and terrifying film, the Descent from 2005. Those are goblins, not verbatim, but I think enough. I mean, listen, here's another part of goblins that is kind of question mark. Right, you mentioned goblins are good mountain climbers and we see goblins a lot in caves. But again, if you trace back the mythology, goblins are household creatures. But when you see the goblins or you see the creatures in The Descent you can be like, okay, cave dwelling, pointed ears, kind of like elves, but creepy elves, you know.

Speaker 2

I think, yeah, goblin just kind of gets described as smaller, small humanoid, monstrous carnivores.

Speaker 1

From caves.

Speaker 2

Well, not necessarily carnivores, As we learn in the cinematic masterpiece Troll 2.

Speaker 1

Tell us about Troll 2 from 1990.

Speaker 2

Why don't you tell us Abby, because that's your favorite movie.

Speaker 1

I fell asleep. I thought I was horrifying. It is, it's like the room of fantasy movies.

Speaker 2

It's hailed as one of the worst movies ever made and it's fantastic. Troll, troll 2, i haven't seen Troll 1. I think Troll 1 actually has a Troll. Maybe I haven't seen it, but there are no trolls in Troll 2.

Speaker 1

It's all about goblins, they're all goblins. What's the name of their town?

Speaker 2

Neil.

Speaker 1

Bogg, neil Bogg.

Speaker 2

Which, if you write that backwards and hold it in front of a mirror.

Speaker 1

Goblin.

Speaker 2

You got to write each letter backwards, but in the correct order. Then hold it in front of a mirror.

Speaker 1

You've cracked the code.

Speaker 2

That's right. Watch out Dan Brown. But yeah, this movie, everyone should see it. It's fun, it's just like this is a movie to all watch with your buddies.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's a good group movie if you're drinking or doing something.

Speaker 2

No, you can watch it. Stone Cold, sir. Watch it in your church group. It's a great film, the premise being that all the goblins are vegetarians, so the only way that they can eat people, which they have to eat people. It's their favorite food. Well, hang on, they give people this goo that turns them into plants.

Speaker 1

Food pole.

Speaker 2

Yeah, And then once they sort of become plant-ish, that's when they eat them because that's their favorite food. That's the entire plot of the movie is goblins turning people into plants so they can eat them?

Speaker 1

The Hole in the Ground from 2023 is an Irish film from A24. It's really good, it's scary, it's a great depiction of Irish folklore And similar to the Gate from 1987, the film centers around a sinkhole, a link to the subterranean terrors below. So again, examples of films where there's caves or underground associations with goblins, which we see in Hellier actually, which is really interesting but we don't necessarily always see in mythology, except for the fact that in France they came from mountains.

Speaker 2

Well, okay, so I'm glad you mentioned the Gate. I didn't see whatever the Hole in the Ground was, but we did see the Gate. Yes, that movie fucking rocks, you think so It's a fantastic movie.

Speaker 1

It felt like similar to like Gremlins to me, Like it had kind of like this 80B horror movie, silly teen.

Speaker 2

There's nothing B about Gremlins. That's a Spielberg movie.

Speaker 1

But I'm talking about the Gate, it just felt. It felt a little. You know, it was fun, but I would never watch it again.

Speaker 2

More Gate. For me, the movie was great. First off, had good child acting, which is so hard to pull off. Had just the right amount of satanic panic, which is throwing all of the satanic mythos in there and just dabbling in just enough. Where you're like man, that sure is cool. Without like, the overhanded like, and if you keep falling through you're going to get into trouble. No fucking satanic shit for the win. That's how they also save the day. The soundtrack rocked.

Speaker 1

Yeah, the soundtrack was good.

Speaker 2

The character design was super cool Of the Goblins, yeah, the Goblins, of the gigantic Goblin monster.

Speaker 1

Well, that's one thing too. I want to say about the Gate is that the Goblins in the Gate, along with a lot of these examples, actually have that shape-shifting quality that we talk about. And one really interesting thing the Goblins are kind of like almost like how the Ghosts function in Ghostbusters, where especially the most recent one, where they sort of like can break apart into a hundred different Goblins or be one big Goblin or be different, you know. So it's kind of like a fun mechanic.

Speaker 2

Honestly, they're kind of terrifying creatures where they're like, yeah, they're little and mischievous, until they're like, no, we got to fuck this guy up, and they all merge in together and just become a giant fucking thing that can hurt people.

Speaker 1

Yeah, there's also a film called Hobgoblins from 1988 and a film called The Field Guide to Evil from 2018, which is an anthology film that delves into the horror of folklore. One of my favorite cross sections.

Speaker 2

Well, just circling back for a second, the whole idea of these little mischievous guys that are, you know, kind of cute, kind of dangerous, but can morph together to be a big thing. Speaking of little guys that are all mischievous on their own, you know, a little dangerous, but then they kind of come together to be like super awful is. It reminds me of the movie Critters.

Speaker 1

Ooh, tell us about Critters.

Speaker 2

So I mean they never say they were Goblins, but it's like all these like little guys, that kind of fuck with you right.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

But they come from outer space And I'm like, oh, I understand this reference.

Speaker 1

Just like Hellier.

Speaker 2

Just like Hellier, They're actually intergalactic criminals. that are they like? break out of jail.

Speaker 1

Yeah, intergalactic jail.

Speaker 2

Intergalactic jail? Well, galactic jail, sure, because then, like they leave their galaxy to come to us. So intergalactic jail or intergalactic police force? right, Because they send bounty hunters after them. But then you know, like Earth's cut in the crossfire? These like little things that are literally just like puffballs of fur you know little cuties. Yeah, but then look at their face. Can you please just pull up a picture from Critters?

Speaker 1

These are so ugly. Look at these teeth. They're all bloody like a maw.

Speaker 2

That's literally, are They?

Speaker 1

think that this is cute.

Speaker 2

They're just well. they have their moments because they're like mischievous and they're like a little play on, like the clothes and shit, But when they bite, holy fuck.

Speaker 1

Wait, Billy Zane is in Critters.

Speaker 2

Uh, a young Billy Zane Wow.

Speaker 1

He does it all.

Speaker 2

Crazy movie Super, super good.

Speaker 1

Yeah, Okay great.

Speaker 2

And then, yeah, you got these intergalactic bounty hunters falling them around trying to kill these things And, yeah, like a kid, that just kind of like glues the movie together. I don't think it's after they feed, but they have to do something to meet the criteria and then they can all merge together to become the super Critter, which is obviously just like this walking behemoth thing.

Speaker 1

Like the Michelin man.

Goblins, Spider-Man, and Folklore

Speaker 2

Sort of Not that big, he's more of troll size, but still real scary. Yeah, and just like, yeah, fucks up everybody. But yeah, it just reminded me of the whole idea of a bunch of things that break apart to go do shit and then kind of come together and fuck up people. We also watched a movie called Goblin which did not, to our dismay, have anything to do with the great band Goblin.

Speaker 1

Well, the interesting thing is that it wasn't terribly rated And even when I went on time DB after we watched it, a lot of the comments were like worth the watch, Not perfect. To me it was Laughably terrible it is laughably terrible. So I'm confused why a lot of people are like hypnotized by this film. But it felt like Mama get into me, like it felt like, no, like one step above, are you like? if lifetime made llama get in, then you have the film goblin.

Speaker 2

The, the acting was on par the acting, and writing was on par with troll too, yes. however, they also didn't have the charm That troll, too, has sure there's a very little charm in that movie.

Speaker 1

There's some campiness that wasn't here in this one, oh.

Speaker 2

There's definitely Campiness no, there's corny-ness.

Speaker 1

Corny, not campiness campy versus corny.

Speaker 2

That's interesting right. Okay, well, anyways that that movie blows, don't watch goblin don't watch goblin.

Speaker 1

We watch the whole thing so that you didn't have to yeah and we have nothing else to say about it.

Speaker 2

Hmm, i like the dog name, dog names missile and bullet. No, there was pistol, pistol and shmoopsy Slupti shmoops. I think it's shmoopsy. Somebody clearly googled generic dog name.

Speaker 1

Yeah, shlup, see a generic dog name shmoopsy.

Speaker 2

It was like a little fruity thing.

Speaker 1

Just like a critter sorta. And, of course, our final piece of media, perhaps infamy to rival Harry Potter, Spider-Man Fuck yeah, Spider-Man. Alan already gave the milk away with the cow at the beginning of the episode on that one. But tell us, alan, all about goblins and Spider-Man.

Speaker 2

Well, I think you give the cow away with the milk. I remember when the first Spider-Man movie came out and just like With Toby.

Speaker 2

Yeah, but just like leading up to it, like during some interview, Sam Raimi was saying how like he really was excited to have Goblin be the main villain because he was Spider-Man's greatest nemesis. I don't think really. The green goblin Not, oh, I don't know. Venom, the anti-Spider-Man, right, But sure, okay, but yeah, Goblin, what a guy. I never really understood the why he chose to be that like to be a goblin right in that show. I'm thinking like my main exposure to the green goblin and hobgoblin comes from the Spider-Man animated series from the 90s. Sure, A fantastic series and all available on Disney Plus if anyone is interested.

Speaker 2

But that is literally just pulled right out of the comics. It just follows the comic story lines. It's just like X-Men actually is made by the same people. Yeah, Goblin was always just like kind of whimsical, kind of He's just like the Joker. He's just kind of like mischievous and every so often, like you know, hurts people. But it was always like in it for the money and stuff, which I guess falls right in line with the Goblin stereotypes these days. So, yeah, like it was a accurate depiction of Goblins, I suppose. But why could he fly? Goblins can't fly.

Speaker 1

That was literally what I was just gonna say.

Speaker 2

But they can climb.

Speaker 1

Maybe Goblins from Space can.

Speaker 2

That's true.

Speaker 1

I mean the Goblins from the Hopkinsville. Goblins sightings flip and fly off into space.

Speaker 2

Wow.

Speaker 1

So maybe he was more of an alienoid goblin than we're giving him credit for.

Speaker 2

Well, I think it was the hobgoblin, but maybe it was the goblin. It's been a while since I saw this, but when they get their extra-dimensional transporter.

Speaker 1

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2

And he can just like make these little portals through space. That's pretty cool, it's pretty cool. Yeah, but it gets dangerous because it runs low on power And one time it closes on him and it like cuts off the back of his cape.

Speaker 1

Is his cape powerful?

Speaker 2

No, because it was just as costly.

Speaker 1

Osmetic.

Speaker 2

Yes, but in very rare self-awareness that you see in like Saturday morning cartoon villains, he's like, oh my god, what if that was like a foot or an arm? I gotta address this situation And that's all I have to say about the goblin.

Speaker 1

Very good.

Speaker 2

And he has his goblin gas.

Speaker 1

His goblin gas.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

What does he do with that?

Speaker 2

Throws it at people.

Speaker 1

Overall, i'm still intrigued the most when we can reshape how we look at folklore a bit. We've seen this with Bigfoot, with Mothman and again circling back to Hellier. Something I think that Hellier does incredibly well is to break down these barriers between these different quote-unquote categories of phenomenon. There is a book by Frederick Ted William Holiday called The Goblin Universe, and Lost Podcasts on the Left has a whole episode about this. Certainly go check it out. But the idea that paranormal events could be considered psychic phenomena Again something Hellier addresses with alien abduction specifically in season two These events could be taking place in somebody's mind, not to say it's made up. More that the communication with whatever this is aliens, goblins, another dimension is happening inside of our minds. The fact that so many cultures have versions of the same creatures which we see over and over again isn't accidental. There are of course, some anthropological reasons for this, but folklore all originates from somewhere And we will continue to try and trace it back in the pursuit of understanding the mysteries of our world.

Speaker 2

Well, in the meantime, if you would like to see some of these, like, to my knowledge, the most modern day depiction of goblins, just watch some Necrogoblican videos where you're going to see goblins working in an office, going to the bar, driving cars.

Speaker 1

These are those metal music videos.

Speaker 2

And they're amazing.

Speaker 1

Just want to make sure we're on the same page here.

Speaker 2

Are you telling me that there's another depiction of goblins? You can see the very relatable situation of going to the bar pick up a girl. She's really just not that into you and you kind of get made fun of and you get embarrassed.

Speaker 1

Is that a relatable situation for you?

Speaker 2

No.

Speaker 1

Okay, yes, if you're into metal, alan will leave a link to that below.

Speaker 2

I mean goblins getting bullied. Everyone can relate to being bullied.

Speaker 1

That's true.

Speaker 2

And that's why you take your bully into the parking lot and take out your claws and just get your goblin revenge. Just rip out all of his innards. That's right, abby Alan. We watched a lot of goblin movies.

Speaker 1

Yep.

Speaker 2

Which one was your favorite? Troll 2.

Speaker 1

You fell asleep Probably the hole in the ground. I really liked the hole in the ground. I thought it was creepy as hell.

Speaker 2

I regret not watching it. Mine was The Gate. That movie fucking rocks. Check it out everybody.

Speaker 1

Two solid goblin films that maybe you haven't seen before.

Speaker 2

Yeah, i wish there was more goblin media. I didn't think that was the case.

Speaker 1

But the thing is there's not a lot, but there's a lot of really big things that have goblins in them, Like what Harry Potter?

Speaker 2

Lord of the Rings. Stop bringing up Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings.

Speaker 1

I'm just saying those are massive, massive, massive franchises.

Speaker 2

For anyone unaware, that's a sentence. I have to yell at her multiple times a day.

Speaker 1

Okay, thank you all so much for being here. What an episode this one has been. We have something really special and unique for you. Next episode, still on the theme of goblins, then, of course, we'll wrap up with some goblin stories for you to round out the series. Talk to you all soon, stay safe, stay well, as I'm sure you will do, write us in and tell us what goblin movies that we still need to watch. Okay, bye, bye.

Head Shot

Abby Brenker

Co-host
Head Shot

Alan Kudan

Co-host