Lunatics Radio Hour
Episode 124 - Hellier, Goblins and The Paranormal with Karl Pfeiffer
What if the world of paranormal phenomena is connected in ways we haven't even begun to understand? Join us for an eye-opening conversation with filmmaker and paranormal investigator Karl Pfeiffer, as we unearth hidden connections and delve into the mysteries behind his work. From Ghost Hunters International to creating the cult favorite series Hellier, Karl brings us behind the scenes.
We discuss Karl's holistic view of paranormal phenomena, exploring stories like the Mothman Prophecies and the work of John Keel. From connections between UFO sightings and poltergeist reports to the mind-reality link between the spiritual and physical realms, prepare to have your perspective on the paranormal transformed. Plus, we discuss the creation process behind the captivating paranormal show Hellier, and the importance of maintaining an open mind in the field of paranormal investigation.
This episode is a treasure trove of insights for fans of the paranormal and the curious-minded alike. From examining the global nature of folklore and its potential connection to paranormal phenomena to Karl's memorable experiences investigating the Stanley Hotel, we leave no stone unturned. Don't miss this opportunity to explore the unknown with the captivating Karl Pfeiffer as our guide.
Email filmsaboutlunatics@gmail.com to submit your short stories and paranormal experiences.
lunaticsproject.com
Get Lunatics Merch here. Join the discussion on Discord.
Check out Abby's book Horror Stories. Available in eBook and paperback. Music by Michaela Papa, Alan Kudan & Jordan Moser. Poster Art by Pilar Keprta @pilar.kep.
What if the world of paranormal phenomena is connected in ways we haven't even begun to understand? Join us for an eye-opening conversation with filmmaker and paranormal investigator Karl Pfeiffer, as we unearth hidden connections and delve into the mysteries behind his work. From Ghost Hunters International to creating the cult favorite series Hellier, Karl brings us behind the scenes.
We discuss Karl's holistic view of paranormal phenomena, exploring stories like the Mothman Prophecies and the work of John Keel. From connections between UFO sightings and poltergeist reports to the mind-reality link between the spiritual and physical realms, prepare to have your perspective on the paranormal transformed. Plus, we discuss the creation process behind the captivating paranormal show Hellier, and the importance of maintaining an open mind in the field of paranormal investigation.
This episode is a treasure trove of insights for fans of the paranormal and the curious-minded alike. From examining the global nature of folklore and its potential connection to paranormal phenomena to Karl's memorable experiences investigating the Stanley Hotel, we leave no stone unturned. Don't miss this opportunity to explore the unknown with the captivating Karl Pfeiffer as our guide.
Email filmsaboutlunatics@gmail.com to submit your short stories and paranormal experiences.
lunaticsproject.com
Get Lunatics Merch here. Join the discussion on Discord.
Check out Abby's book Horror Stories. Available in eBook and paperback. Music by Michaela Papa, Alan Kudan & Jordan Moser. Poster Art by Pilar Keprta @pilar.kep.
Hello everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Lunatics Radio Hour podcast. I'm Abby Branker sitting here with Alan Kudan, hello, and we are joined by Carl Pfeiffer. Hi, carl.
Speaker 3:Hey guys, how you doing.
Speaker 1:Doing well. Thanks so much for being here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thanks for having me on, i'm excited.
Speaker 2:This is very exciting. I think this is the biggest celebrity we've had on the podcast so far.
Speaker 3:I'll take it.
Speaker 1:For anyone who doesn't know Carl, he's both a filmmaker and a paranormal investigator, which are two of our favorite things, and it's really cool to see all of the. I, admittedly, was looking up your resume a little bit as I was putting together the research for this interview And it's cool Like I had some awareness of you know of what you've done, because you talk about spirits of the Stanley and Hellier, but I had no idea that you were on Goat Hunters International and Sci-Fi. You know it's like kind of endless all the cool stuff that you've done.
Speaker 3:It's been quite the resume of false starts and various different obscure projects that I think really laid the groundwork for where I'm at now. So it's been very cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's very aspirational, i think, also as people who are both in like the film and media and horror, paranormal space, to see like how you've kind of been able to craft a career around this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's been very gradual and it's fun to see some of those, how some of those individual pieces seem to come into place later on in ways that didn't always make sense at the time, or I wanted something else out of an experience, but you know, just kind of that way that life works out and sets the stage for what I'm doing now.
Speaker 2:It is really interesting just how, almost like you know ships in the night, how I actually got to work with Carl years ago which is how we know each other But it wasn't until after the so I think it was in 2021. We did a shoot for National Geographic together out in Oregon and that was an experience, but it wasn't until after the fact that I was working with Ronnie Thomas on a shoot. I was just talking to him about this series called Hellier that my girlfriend's obsessed with, and he's like, well, shit, that's Carl's thing, you know Carl. And then, yeah, all the pieces just kind of clicked into place.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's one of those small world moments that I love and I love hearing about, because you know Hellier has been cult favorite, you know mildly successful and whatnot. But you know, seeing the numbers never really translates until you know you're out in the wild And you know, i think that Ronnie was familiar with that work too, being in the same spaces, so that's not super strange that he and I kind of were working together. But you know, just someone like you after the fact to kind of be like, oh yeah, this show Hellier I love, I love hearing about that stuff.
Speaker 1:It makes it a little bit more real for me other than just sitting in my office looking at numbers and, and you know, not having faces to the numbers, Yeah, i mean I learned about Hellier because there's a group of New York City paranormal podcasts and you know different people and media that that I hang out with all the time and Hellier is so important to a lot of people, especially in the paranormal space, and that some of the different methods that I want to talk to you about as, as we talked today of investigation that you've developed, you know that really is like a big deal for people And so it really is a sensation, i feel like in my peer group, so much so that for like years, i feel like I was talking to Alan about Hellier because he's a skeptic, he's a big skeptic and that's kind of the dynamic of our show.
Speaker 1:No, i'm very much a believer, he's a skeptic, and I've been like I think Hellier is the thing that's going to convince you for for like many years, until finally he was like oh yeah, i know, carl, and it was. So it was like of course you do. Of course you do, after years of me begging you to watch it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it just goes straight to the top. You know like.
Speaker 1:I'll just.
Speaker 3:I'll just skirt around watching it and I'm just going to go meet the guy that shot it. You know, that feels like the best way to get to the heart of the matter.
Speaker 2:I mean it's not a bad way to do it.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 2:It is funny how Ronnie does seem to be a kind of paranormal glue, how he just kind of to your point so many people just like in the world are connected in one way or another and how, if you know someone, even tangentially connected to the paranormal, they know somebody who knows somebody, who knows somebody who is an expert on the exact topic that you want to talk about.
Speaker 3:Yeah, i think it's both a small community, small world, and also I think you know, there's various factions of the paranormal and we'll get into stuff later, i'm sure. But I think the folks that are into some of the weirder stuff, rather than the quote, unquote, traditional type stuff, tend to have a very interesting rolodex of people that they know that are like, oh man, you know that person, like that's amazing. You know some of the folks that even Ronnie knows I'm like, oh man, i got to meet that person one day.
Speaker 2:Yeah Yeah, interesting is the right word. I don't think I've ever. Most of my experience with the paranormal is their work on film shoots and whatnot, and just I don't think I've ever gone on one of these shoots and not walked away with a great story.
Speaker 3:Yes, which is half of the fun.
Speaker 1:And still you're a skeptic.
Speaker 2:Well, we're going to talk about that.
Speaker 1:So I want to kick things off, Carl, with what's probably an annoying question for you, So I apologize but, it's helping to set the stage for people out there who maybe aren't familiar with Hellier or you specifically.
Speaker 1:But a lot of the discussion and a lot of really what I resonated with from Hellier and I think really has like changed a lot about what I believe in is this idea of breaking down these boundaries between you. know, i think what Greg says and Hellier is like if Bigfoot hunters were talking to you, we're talking to it, right, and I'm like, yeah, and that's come up for us a lot when we've done episodes on Mothman and a lot of these like big, big things, and I kind of think that's also the part that gets Alan a little bit is like, when you start to think about Bigfoot as maybe something from outer space or a different dimension, it suddenly becomes a lot more interesting. I wanted to ask you how do you really think about the paranormal holistically? How do you define it Like? how do you sort of translate all of these experiences that you've had into like a belief?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's kind of tough to lump together exactly how I think about it And I'm always of two minds about all of it. I think you know there's obviously that kind of surface level of the paranormal of just like you know aliens are from space and Bigfoot's an undiscovered primate and ghosts are you know people after they've died And I can understand that sort of like from that like simple boxy cataclyse perspective that it's a bit of a leap to try to connect those you know. Like forcing an undiscovered primate to be like a ghost is very confusing, i think, for folks to think of it in that way And I think that that's still kind of my baseline at the end of the day. It makes me reluctant to try to like force everything too holistically together. But I think that for me I like the weirder the better And so stories like obviously a big part of Hellier in various ways is the Mothman prophecies and the work of John Keel And that's one of my, if not the favorite story in the paranormal because it has so many weird disconnected elements happening at once that it starts to make you question a little bit and wonder what it is that is bringing those elements together. Like he found that poltergeist reports were much more higher in these flap areas and these towns that were experiencing things like UFOs, and so that makes you start to wonder, like what the heck does poltergeist phenomenon have to do with UFOs? And I think that when you start getting weird like that, it both gets really interesting. That's a great tapestry for a story And you start to try to put some of those pieces together And I find where they start to come together which could exist in tandem with sort of the simple approach.
Speaker 3:But I think that the deeper you start to go into these things, you start to see a little bit more of that like physical slash, spiritual connection, the mind reality connection And what that dynamic is between this sort of like imaginal spiritual world of ideas and possibilities and the non physical and this world of the physical reality that we're familiar with in science and our day to day life.
Speaker 3:And I think that when you start to see that sort of like mind physical connection happening and you start to introduce these ideas like psychic phenomenon and telekinesis and ideas of like aggregators in magic and thought forms and tulpas and whatnot, and that sort of idea of like what's our consciousness in relationship to the world around us in terms of, like, the manifesting of these things and belief, and like how much is our belief in these things affecting the paranormal phenomenon that's happening in a certain area?
Speaker 3:And whether that's on an individual level, which is like your house is haunted maybe you're more of the source of that, which is where psychic researchers find the source of poltergeist to exist, you know, is that it's not actually an entity that's just mischievous and has a lot of chaos, but it's actually typically sourced in, like someone going through puberty in the home And what's that connection like.
Speaker 3:And if that expands in bigger ways to flap areas and this other types of phenomenon that we see, it starts to open up the doors of possibility on all sorts of phenomenon and the engagement where big foot could be an undiscovered primate. But if enough people are believing in this thing and concentrating on it in one place, well, maybe you're getting something else as well, and so I think that that's where my kind of two minds about it goes. I don't want to try to lump everything under the same umbrella and say that it's the same thing, just prima facia, but at the same time I think that going down that rabbit hole of the mind reality dynamic, i think, is where things get really weird, really exciting, great stories, and I think that the possibilities are just off the charts in terms of potential on all levels.
Speaker 1:Totally. It's kind of like this idea of taking a step back and shaking off some of like the predetermined ways that we're kind of like, even within this small group of the paranormal, like taught to look at things right And just like taking a step back and seeing what organically comes up.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned them often was your favorite not to put words in your mouth, but your favorite, maybe paranormal event, and that was one of the things I wanted to ask you Is there any other things like that that really resonate with you, that you kind of have this obsession over?
Speaker 3:Yeah, i think it kind of goes in stages and phases, you know, even looking back on childhood, like the different types of paranormal phenomena that I've been into in the past, and I think that being into aliens was really formative when I was a kid. You know I was into aliens before I was into ghosts. That I think is one of the most frightening but also interesting kind of paranormal phenomena stuff. So like it was definitely a bit of a dance being a nineties kid where alien abductions are very much in the pop cultures, like Geist, and being fascinated by that.
Speaker 3:But also I think that the other big one that I'm really fascinated about is like poltergeist phenomena in particular, and I'm kind of you know, i guess as a storyteller at heart I'm always interested in the most intriguing and mysterious and interesting like hooks of the phenomenon rather than just like the nuts and bolts of it. So I kind of lost a little bit of steam with the sort of perspective on it that you know it's just psychical energy. You know going haywire is like well, that's less exciting than some sort of like crazy ghostly activity. But regardless, i think that there's so many, so many stories of these famous, legendary poltergeist type cases from like the seventies, that are just so wild, and I think maybe what it comes back to me frequently is just sort of like the likelihood and the overtness of the phenomenon that's manifesting because maybe I was just a ghost hunter for too many years, where you're just on too many investigations where you hear a creak or two and you're like that's all I got.
Speaker 3:Like, was that? what even was that? Was that a ghost? I don't know, and then you hear stories about, like, walking into a poltergeist case and it's just like, oh yep, the spoons are floating through the kitchen again, like that's just, it's three o'clock in the afternoon, this is what happens. You know that I think that there's something really compelling about that And I don't, i don't know where they went.
Speaker 3:You know, i feel like we don't have any legendary poltergeist cases in the last 30 years. So whether that's men in black or poltergeists, it feels like the activity seems to come and go in its own ways. But I think for me it's sort of that super weird, super overt, super wild sort of instances that compel me the most, and stuff like Mothman, where you just get everything in one basket And it's just like you know how much of Mothman actually happened, i don't know, but in terms of being a good story that just makes you want to be boots on the ground. For two years down in Point Pleasant it was like that sounds bizarre as hell And I wish I was there.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm always happy when it just does come back to Mothman, because that was the. If I ever had a turning point which I don't think I have, but if I ever did, it would be Mothman, just because for me that is the most convincing story of the, of the paranormal, just because there are so many things, and the way it was explained to me was just, you know, once you'd take a big step back and think about it as just being like the idea of extra dimensional things. Then it just kind of becomes like all these little paranormal instances are like the islands poking out of the ocean And then you just get rid of the water and then just like everything is connected. It's just poking up in kind of different ways And so, like I don't know, you know I've never felt a very strong calling for ghosts or Bigfoot or anything but aliens. Sure, statistically they got to be there And then, like Mothman just kind of ties it all together, like maybe they are just in a not little green men kind of way.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think it's. it's funny, working in the hellier space, in the Mothman space, working with Greg and Dana, when I think that there are so many people in the world that are skeptical like you, that are sort of like of the idea that, like aliens, yeah, something's got to exist out there And maybe they found us and they're taking their time, you know. and then we're over here like, but what if aliens are interdimensional beings? It's just like we've we've taken a potentially reasonable explanation and we're like no, let me. let me propose something that's even harder to swallow as the explanation for this thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what swayed me. It's interesting too. I totally agree with you. We actually did an episode early on in the podcast on the Enfield Pulture guys And the thing about it that frustrates me about is, you know, for me it's like there would have to be so many people lying about that experience, like it's not just like one little girl is in her room and she's like there's spoons floating in the kitchen. There's, you know, it's the police officers and the neighbors and the parents and X, you know, and all these different people. So it's just interesting. It's really interesting too when you have these big things like Enfield or Mothman or whatever, that have all of these witnesses And of course, there's something to be said for mass hysteria and all these other things. But you know, that's the the hook. I feel like that gets me with a lot of these is just like that's a really big conspiracy theory If all of these people are in on it together, you know.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah yeah, I think you know I'm, I'm a very kind of skeptical person, you know, at heart as well. I think that it's almost like more of like my imagination is like what I engage with, the, the paramilitary, because on any investigation of any kind I can't turn off the brain, impulsive, just like uh or was that this?
Speaker 3:you know, is this my mind run? You're like it's always analyzing the experience And to some extent I think that that might dampen a lot of the activity that actually happens in some way, because, uh, it doesn't happen around me too much and I can't turn off that side of my brain. So in any approach to it, whether it's telling a story or doing the investigation itself or just consuming the literature, I have kind of that like skeptical brain constantly in the back of my mind. We'll talk about the ethnic method in a bit, I'm sure, But I feel like, as one of the co-creators of the Estus method, I'm one of the more skeptical people of it And you know, in this space where it's run away from us, I'm still skeptical of it.
Speaker 3:At the end of the day, working at the Stanley hotel and whatnot doing, the ghost sense as well.
Speaker 3:I think that skepticism was a part of me, but I think that what I came back to was always that validation element. If two people have the experience, if something records that experience that you also had, like adding that second person in there doesn't make it real, but it takes it so many steps further than just the personal experience, because I am so aware of, like, how fallible the human uh, human mind is. So, whether it's on a large scale and you get tons of of witness reports of the same thing or the the story of the thing, I think that that's very compelling as well. But I do appreciate the skeptical mindset and that's where this phenomenon seems to reside at the end of the day, Really like I'm a huge fan of trickster in the paranormal, That book has sort of become like my paranormal Bible lately and it just really seems like the phenomena hangs out in those areas where you constantly are like well, could it be this? or there's always that little element of doubt that's just going to fuel the skeptical mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:The majority of my paranormal hunting, if you will, has been through working on other people's ghost shows. We did a number of these and every single one of them was completely fabricated. You know, i'm I'm sure you've had some similar experiences when being brought onto someone else's production. You know, they bring in some big names in the paranormal world, right, and then just like to make good TV. It's completely fake. Was there like a turning point for you of you know, like, how, like, how did you like start to believe? I suppose?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it was.
Speaker 3:It's always been a bit of a dance and cause, like I say, with the investigations.
Speaker 3:It's always been this way where, like stuff doesn't really seem to happen to me And I didn't you know, i'm no Zach Baggins, where you know the first time I ever believed in ghosts was when I came face to face with one, mine.
Speaker 3:For me was this always this passion for the unexplained and the mysterious and the spooky, and that drove me to want to go have these experiences that other people are reporting And that's just become sort of a lifelong goal of trying to put myself in as many situations as I can to have these experiences. And in the way of the paranormal, they're typically very subtle. You know, whether that's how your season one or just being on a ghost hunt, they're typically very subtle. And by approaching it that way, i think that for me it's really about that dynamic between that sort of like that's where my skeptical mind comes in And the more that I learn, the more that, like, that idea of belief is kind of sticky territory, because my current leanings are towards this framework, that the belief in such things is a big element of what happens.
Speaker 3:But I also think that belief is kind of dangerous in any sort of spiritual sort of space because it becomes very quickly narrow minded. You know, or thinking that you know, how these things operate, even just the fact of them existing. I try to take a step back from So that's where I'm sort of in between, constantly at all times is believing that something seems to be going on but being reluctant to determine anything that that is. And going back to what you said earlier about some of the shows, i've not myself been around anything that's overt fake. But I also know that lucky you, yes, i mean, at the end of the day I was only really on Ghost Centers Academy and like one episode of Ghost Centers International And Academy was very reality oriented, I'd say for better or for worse, but it was really for the worst.
Speaker 2:And international.
Speaker 3:I don't think that there is anything going on there but at the end of the day, with one episode, if there was something suspicious, i don't think I was high enough up on the totem pole to be aware of any of it, so it was sort of a simple toes in the water thing. but I know how TV operates and I understand when there's money, that much money on the line that you can't have a whole season of Go shows where nothing happens because they need to be able to make their money back. I get that which isn't to justify it from an ethical standpoint with the paranormal but I get how those things happen and how a lot of, i think, viewers look up to their favorite paranormal investigators on these shows and have opinions about those people's integrity. But at the end of the day, for many of those shows, especially these days, those people aren't in charge And so if the boss is on high, come through and say like either.
Speaker 3:This has to happen because there's too much money on the line, especially for live shows. In my opinion, there's too much money, there's too many people involved in this. Nothing has to happen. If you don't go through with it, all your friends on the crew are going to lose their jobs because the show is going to be over. What are you going to do? I see these things happening. I see them happening and it makes sense to me. Kind of a way, it's also part of the appeal of why we did hellier ourselves. Is we just didn't want to put ourselves in that kind of a sticky situation? Sure.
Speaker 2:In fairness, the very first ghost hunting show I worked on was a pilot.
Speaker 3:So they have to find it. Everything goes out for that. They're like this is just a pitch, this is just the hook, this isn't how it's really going to go.
Speaker 2:I really set up myself for failure with that one because I was just so excited to go see ghosts They brought in. I remember one of the guys was on one of the Amityville investigators and it's like, okay, this guy's definitely going to find some ghosts. They're going around the house trying to use the laser thermometer just trying to find cold spots. Of course they're just like, okay, here's how we do it. They send a PA to go get ice and they put it behind the radiator.
Speaker 2:And then we just get a scene out of it. From that point on I'm like, okay, i got to take everything with a grain of salt.
Speaker 3:You see that slippery slope start to develop very easily there.
Speaker 2:But again, in fairness, this is a pilot, it's a one-off. It has to look spooky. The idea like, oh, we didn't find anything is not an acceptable answer, unlike a series where we didn't find something but we found this other thing which was interesting, which let's go investigate that. Circling back to Hellier, i really, really loved Looking from a skeptic standpoint. Nothing was ever like aha goblins there they are. It's like here's what we found, this is what it could mean. This is what it could mean. This is the more interesting answer. So we're going to go with here and then see where it goes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was important to us And I think a lot of it. I mean, it always comes back to the crew of folks that we have working on it and sort of my proclivities as the creator editor on the creative side, and I think a lot of it was in response to everything that's come before. This was the show that we wanted to see, the show that we always wanted to watch in a world of paranormal TV that's become very cookie cutter and very stale in my opinion, and I think that sort of that ghost hunters approach of like trying to prove or debunk something had gotten very sort of tired or at the least it's their thing And we just didn't want another show that debunked.
Speaker 3:But there is a mystery involved and we are trying to figure out this mystery, And so it's important to us one to keep an open mind, so we didn't want to jump to any conclusions and we did want to kind of get to the bottom of things.
Speaker 3:But there's stuff, like you know, super mild spoilers.
Speaker 3:But in season one, like we can't, david doesn't exist in the town of Hellier.
Speaker 3:No one aspect of the story hinges on another, so it can keep it interesting when various things develop where it's like, ok, if David doesn't exist, that doesn't answer the whole thing.
Speaker 3:You know that doesn't negate all the other weirdness that's happened, and so it's a fun dynamic the whole way through to constantly be challenging ourselves on camera and off camera certainly, and I think that seeing our thought process, seeing us try not to jump to any conclusions, trying not to like prove goblins and get the footage that will convince everybody, i think that that makes it a much more welcoming environment for people of all beliefs, you know, whether pro or against the existence of the paranormal, in a way that is also going to be honest about it.
Speaker 3:So we all know that these things happen much more subtly and when we present it that way, as it happens, i think that there's that element too of just kind of it doesn't work for everybody, but I think those that are willing to engage with it, who can recognize those subtleties as they develop. By the time you're in the middle of season two, the subtleties are getting pretty overt and all of a sudden, trying to link all the pieces together, to figure out how we could be fooling ourselves or faking it or what have you or what's actually happening, just gets so complex that I think that it becomes very compelling, in a way that's far more interesting to us than just trying to get a video clip of a goblin which would be great.
Speaker 2:But sure, yeah, yeah. But in the process you build a lot of credibility for you and your team.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So you know, like when stuff does come on, it's like got it, Love it, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And this is sort of my sales pitch to everybody as I'm convincing the world to go watch it is to me as a viewer, it's very similar to the emotional experience to like the first season of the serial podcast, where, to me, regardless and this is literally verbatim what I've told everyone like, like, regardless of whether or not you believe in the paranormal, somebody sent the emails and that's like the thing that I can't get over. It's like it's in the whole thing with how they connect to the mothman and all that stuff. It's like to me that's the hook of. I still like who the fuck sent the emails? where did they come from? What do they mean? Why did they reach out to?
Speaker 1:Greg's like old ghost hunting. Like it's the weirdness of that that is concrete and real and really happened. So who cares if you believe in ghosts or not? Like that's the piece I can't get over And that's why, like, everyone has to watch it and have this, you know this like strange obsession around, like where did How did this all start? And to me it's such an important part that's unsolved And that's why it's so intriguing too.
Speaker 3:It is. Yeah, it grounds the uh, the entire show, and it's that magic sort of formula that in some ways makes it stressful to shoot, because it's like this is a once in a lifetime kind of a story Like.
Speaker 3:I better execute. but, um, that aside it, it's amazing how it always goes back to that, where it's the perfect blend of high strangeness and things that are happening to us and things that we're navigating throughout. But, as you say, it comes back to something that's firmly rooted in reality that, no matter what your engagement level with it, it's a good mystery, and there's just enough layers and twists of that premise that it's not as simple as like one email.
Speaker 3:Is this is this true? Did this guy exist? Is it not true? It's like then you add in the Terry wrist emails and it's like okay, is it both? And there's so many questions that come from even that simple framework that I think you know, i think it's it's well presented at the end of season two, without spoiling anything.
Speaker 3:Like we have kind of another aha moment about the numbers from the Terry wrist email And I think I've seen, you know, and in just one or two places, just to feedback, uh, comment section or something which I try to avoid as much as possible, but um it, you know, i think someone was like Oh, i think that they're stretching here about trying to make these numbers work or whatnot. But the thing that I sort of went back to was I was kind of like, well, we may or may not be stretching, because it gets pretty convoluted to try to get to the solution of these numbers. But we're not saying that. That's like there's synchronicity elements that are huge in that, but they're what we're actually trying to get at with those is not trying to justify a supernatural situation where, like, we're trying to decipher what a human being sense and what message he was trying to convey with that.
Speaker 3:So like stretch or not sort of the idea that we're basing all of that on like a synchronistic explanation or something was not what that scene Right Heart was. It was going back to trying to like figure out magic or supernatural stuff aside what he was trying to communicate with a string of numbers And and that that was wild. I think that's super compelling if folks can follow it. But yeah, at the end of the day that was like a big moment for us And it's just. That's just the human part, that's just trying to figure out some emails.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Maybe, maybe that's one of the reasons why it just like it works so well, because, to your point, it's not necessarily focusing on a yes or no about the paranormal, you're just solving a cool mystery, or just not even solving, just following a cool mystery, which is just really. It's a really engaging story.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you, and that I mean that was definitely part of the goal. I think that was part of what I picked on when I first heard the the Ufomet podcast with it was. it spoke to me because of all those different levels and having that very unique opportunity to tell a story like this. that doesn't come around every day.
Speaker 1:Do you have any theories around anything that happens in Hellyer that maybe we don't see as an audience, like who sent the emails or causes of some of the other things? Like, is there anything you know that's you know that you must like I just feel like if it was me it would drive me crazy to you know, like you must be thinking about it, yeah.
Speaker 3:I think for the first two seasons I was thinking about stuff like 24 seven, and I think after we kind of like went so hard on those for a little while, it's been more of a kind of a roller coaster of stuff.
Speaker 3:We've got a new project coming out, so that's taken a lot of our attention and allows the brain to take a break and then dip our toes back in and out and out.
Speaker 3:And you know, i think it's a tough one to answer in some ways, because it's ongoing and we're working on season three, probably about to hit that pretty hard now that the, the unbinding is wrapped up and almost coming out.
Speaker 3:For me, though, i think one of the things that was kind of an aha moment for me, that I can talk about that for a lot of other people might be like obvious, and they've come to this conclusion ages ago, but you know, for me this was a show that was very cool, because it was a show that started out about like gobbling creatures, little aliens, and then it was like, oh, the show's so cool because it goes down so many other directions, and then it's a show about magic and stuff like that, and for me it was probably a year ago that I had this, this moment, where I realized that the whole show is about magic, and that was like a really interesting perspective because, of course, it has all these elements. It's very multifaceted, but when you look at a lot of the conclusions that we developed and came to in season two which is a lot of where my head space still very much is at the end of season two is where I'm at now It colors everything that came before it in season one.
Speaker 3:And you look at all these TV shows in the air right now that are like this is an alien paranormal show or a ghost paranormal show or a bigfoot show. Ours, i think, is kind of the first and only magic paranormal show And it's been there the whole time. I mean even synchronicities like our latest. thinking about synchronicities is that these and nobody has a very cohesive theory on them. trying to read books about them and stuff over the course of this, people have ideas all over the place, but I think the one that we're probably at least I'm subscribing to at the moment was illustrated towards the end of season two, where the synchronicities are side effects of initiatory experiences.
Speaker 3:side effects of magical workings And that was a pretty fascinating one for me because it did seem to click. And so, going back through season one and all those synchronicities in there, if those are side effects of the magical working, then in that way you know, it's magic the whole way down, and so seeing it from that perspective was sort of like an interesting moment where it came to my theories about the whole thing And just like what the show was about.
Speaker 3:Is it just kind of like whichever avenue this goes down? I think here onwards it's very much like it's, and here before it's been a show about magic And we'll see where that takes us and continues to take us. But my operating theory is that that's what's at the heart of it all for the most part.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i love that. That's intriguing. I have an. I feel like that certainly comes through more in season two, but yeah, i hadn't also made that connection to apply it to the whole project.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's not as overt, obviously, in season one, but it's sort of like if that's the foundational part under season two and that's the framework we're looking at it, then it's there in season one. We just didn't know it at the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we talked about this briefly but I'm wondering if we can expand on it a little bit, which is sort of the balance. Again, like Alan and I are both in the film world, We both have this other thing that we do, this horror, you know, paranormal thing. And what's really intriguing about Hellier is watching you document it, but you're also a star of it, right, and so, like you're also an active paranormal, you're not just like a cameraman, that's in the, you know the reflection of something, like you're really a core member. And so what was that sort of balance like, like you know you mentioned, like you have to execute, like you want to get the shot. You also have this like emotional time, sure, to the paranormal side. So how did that sort of come together?
Speaker 3:Yeah, It's been an interesting journey. My dynamic in the shooting of it has been as evolving as actually shooting it, because season one of Hellier I was as rusty as you can be. Really. It was kind of my first and a half, my second project, my first real project, And there was a lot that I didn't know what I was doing And in some ways it's kind of lucky that I think it came out as well as it did. So it's been an evolving process and one of the fun supplies And so plots of Hellier is like my evolving skills as a filmmaker figuring out what I'm doing as each season gets it's a little better and better.
Speaker 3:But I think that my role in the show is also kind of evolving as well. Because season one I brought out my, my buddy, rashad, to be the second cameraman And I was like, ok, this is a cool dynamic. Because at that point in time you know, it wasn't so long before that I was, you know, you know, talking to people about being on shows and wanting to sort of get back into that space and having that sort of young perspective of wanting to be on TV and all that. So I was like, ok, this is cool, i'll be the shooter. But you know, rashad is kind of the cameraman, so like there's nothing wrong with panning over to me to get a take, even if I'm holding the camera. And that was a good dynamic.
Speaker 3:But in season two it started to change because that one was a little bit more scattershot of a season, so we didn't have Rashad with us for any of season two. So I was kind of like the only cam-op. So most of the time I became more in a position of just being behind the camera all the time where there wasn't as many opportunities to be on the camera, except for those situations mostly of like being like well, i'm still doing research too and I've got something to share. So, connor, hold this camera real quick. But it got a lot harder. And there were moments too, especially early in that season, where I kind of like see shots of my self and I'd be like oh.
Speaker 3:I'm kind of a mess right there And it brought to light the whole idea that's like maybe in a scene I can communicate with the team and do stuff while filming, But in terms of like the overall experience, I'm like I don't believe that I have enough time to focus on myself as an on-camera person and worry about how to shoot the thing. And so there was kind of a decision in season two where I kind of just accepted the fact that like my goals aren't to be on TV anymore. You know, like I don't want to be my face, to be on the cover of the season. You know, it's like my priorities are making the best thing that I can, And so that was a bit of a shift where I started being on camera less and less.
Speaker 3:But what's fun is that, as someone that was part of that team going up through the show to this point, it makes me an interesting character because the camera sort of becomes me And so everyone's kind of hanging out side by side with me, even if you don't see me in the shot, which is kind of a fun role to be because we can talk about. Greg says a lot that I'm like the eyes of the audience. You know, And in more ways than one you know, I'm the camera, So it's like the audience gets to experience it through my eyes in that way, But I'm also the one telling the story later on in the edit as well. So and.
Speaker 3:I'm thinking the most about like okay, is this too much of a stretch? How do we convince people of this? you know, like, or by that I mean like get them from A to B to C to D in an understandable way And instead of making the jumps. So I think that that's been sort of the evolution is less of balancing on camera and off camera and becoming more of just sort of like an invisible character that you know ever.
Speaker 3:all the audience members gets to constantly be along for the ride with, and that's nice and easy because I can just talk over the camera if I need to. You know, just like. Hey, greg, you know, did you think of this? you know?
Speaker 2:and it's natural.
Speaker 3:So I think in that way it makes it more engaging too, in a way that other paranormal shows where the crew is invisible maybe don't have as much, which is, i think, another one of those areas that Hellier, as a totally real show that feels like a scripted show at times in the presentation format, continues to dance around that line where you know we're trying to make it feel like a movie, but it's all real, but you're also like you know that there's a cameraman where other shows you forget that there's a cameraman, but those shows are the reality shows and our show is the movie. You know it's. I love that dichotomy and that dynamic there And I think that it's cool that my role on camera or not as it is contributes to it.
Speaker 2:I've always found that, like when you get to see the crew and see all the gear. It adds that extra level of authenticity but also I mean, maybe just because I can relate to that, but like yeah, it just, it seems a bit more not quite gritty, because it still looks super, super pretty, but just like, yeah, this is like a visceral filmmaking.
Speaker 1:Well, i guess it's also like you know. I know that there's not a producer on the edge being like, oh, we should hear something And, right like you get that from it. It feels very like I can see what's happening and I trust that, like everyone that's happening behind the camera.
Speaker 2:I also love when you, you know, especially in season one, when you're you see both cameras very often and like you see, like you filming in the shot and then we cut to your camera.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean maybe that's just a filmmaker side of things, but like that's really fun. Something that I've noticed on a lot of projects is just difficulty in balancing the verite aspect of things to like we're trying again, we're trying to make a movie here. It has to come off at the certain level of cinematic quality And like I felt like there was a really great balance of that in Hellier. Thanks Is there. Is there some kind of trick to the trade to making that balance work?
Speaker 3:I mean, that's another one that's evolving, where you know, season one was just kind of a matter of of winging it and figuring out how it all works. I think the number one trick of the trade for me, as kind of a cinematographer role in the project as well, is it's part of the area that I excel. So I learned photography before I got into video.
Speaker 3:I was kind of learning the ins and outs of video as the basics anyways, as I was doing photography, and so with photography I was learning all about lighting. You know going down that rabbit hole key lights, rim lights, fill lights you know like contrast ratios, everything with that And so I think that shooting, that verite style for me, really complements how I work really well, because I've got that toolbox in my mind of what the good lighting is.
Speaker 3:And so the first and foremost part is kind of the filmmaker's ability to move around the space quickly and recognize the best shots for that area and then to settle into that and rule there And that's the sort of like natural balance as Hellier evolves to. We don't like to do it like reality show style where you know everybody half circles up and has a conversation. I like to have the scene just happen organically, but there is going to be some elements of like okay, we're about to shoot this scene.
Speaker 3:I got to get everything ready And so some of that has that just that moment of pause at the beginning of just kind of being like Greg Connor, dana, it's going to be better if you guys stand over here in this scene and you kind of talk to each other this way And that's where the structure of it comes from.
Speaker 3:And then, more recently, with the little bit that we've shot of season three already and just from shooting other projects, some of the limitations and the problems I've run into in season two. Lighting solves everything, And so my latest kind of project is trying to light the scene a little bit out of the way to try to like bring up that production value just a little bit more in a way that like doesn't take much time. The stuff we've shot already, the lights are a little more visible than I'd want them to be, but that goes back to kind of the artifice of Hellier is just kind of like yeah, you see that stuff like we're not trying to pretend, But just like hiding a light above a lamp or a window just to try to get it to not blow out, you know what.
Speaker 2:I mean.
Speaker 3:So that's the sort of evolution is wanting to let the scene unfold naturally, having the eye to recognize where a good shot is and then more recently actually light it a little bit to give it kind of that cinematic edge in a nonobtrusive way that can still let the scene unfold organically. Is the sort of balance so far between the Verite and the making it look good. Production element the movie, the movie part.
Speaker 2:That was actually a really great answer of just find a pretty space and then just let it happen.
Speaker 3:Yeah, completely.
Speaker 1:My last sort of behind the scenes question about Hellier. I'm Super curious because I feel like you know, greg and Dana have before you. You see in Hellyer how you guys kind of come together and meet And they have kind of an established paranormal career. You and Connor have an established paranormal career coming together with, i assume, different methods and ways of thinking about the paranormal. Specifically, how did that sort of unfold initially? You know, how did you kind of meld your way of thinking?
Speaker 3:It was fairly miraculous for how it all worked, because what you see on screen is pretty accurate to how it actually happened, to an unbelievable fault, because I really had spent time with Greg and Dana at that Stanley event over the course of a weekend and we became buds. But then it was like a year and a half later, greg and I stayed in touch just kind of chatting about, because he wanted to bring me out for a photo shoot And I was pushing for this Hellyer thing and I was like listen, dude, if we're going to come out and do a photo shoot, like let's, let's shoot this Hellyer thing and just see what happens. And the first miraculous thing was that he even agreed to it.
Speaker 3:Like knowing Greg now I'm like, wow, that was quite the quite the coup. But it was just so absurd and kind of that perfect thing that you can kind of only do in your 20s, kind of a thing of just like. I literally grabbed Connor and Rashad. Connor had barely met Greg and Dana for more than like two minutes at that Stanley event. Rashad was just a rando, like he's my friend but like he's not in the paranormal space.
Speaker 3:He didn't know anybody And we drive out to Cincinnati and Greg and Dana have a two bedroom apartment and like we all just camp out on the floor and on the couch, you know, and the fact that that worked at all, you know with these people that we'd met for, like you know, two days and only hung out that much, and the fact that we did all that and we were like instant best friends, like it felt like we'd been doing it for years the way that we have now. So that was kind of the first like crazy part, but in terms of more of that paranormal philosophy, it was just kind of the perfect meld of like. We all had very similar perspectives on things And the first night was a lot of fun, because I think anyone that spent time with Greg and Dana, they're full of stories, they've got so many great stories and ideas. And so the first night we just sat down with some chili and I think we must have talked for like eight hours and just like they were telling us a bunch of stories, we were getting ideas for other projects And it was a lot of fun because I think I'm just open to everything, the word, or the better, lay it on me Tell me some great stories.
Speaker 3:Connor was kind of our more conservative, so to speak, in his thinking, like more of the traditional ghost hunter You know he had. He had some religious background with his faith, you know, being a Christian, and so like he was open to stuff. Hard to go, that guy, but like it took a while to kind of come around to see He was very cautious as you see on screen, very cautious about a lot of this stuff, but not in a way of just shutting it down and leaving.
Speaker 3:And Rashad is just, like you know, your classic film set guy of just being like down to do anything, down to work hard and super open to just hanging out and having experiences. So he had kind of an interesting like every man, non paranormal, skeptical ish perspective on everything the whole way through And so he didn't chime in with it too much. But when we heard his takes about those things it was always really compelling because it gave us that step outside of our own weirdo brains to kind of get an idea of how some of this stuff was playing for the average person. So, long story long, it's just we're all on enough of the same page that we were just best friends from the get go And then, now that we spend so much time together, i think our ideas have kind of evolved into one big snowball, while also keeping our own kind of individual personalities and perspectives maintained.
Speaker 1:Super cool, Very kismet right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it feels like it. I mean even in the behind the scenes, the production side of it, like we each bring things to the table that the others didn't have. You know In a way that, like I've always struggled with the marketing side of things, I can make something cool, but it's very hard for me to put that out there.
Speaker 3:And Greg and Dana like literally worked for a startup for years doing SEO and you know they had a paranormal website, so they knew press releases and they had everything I didn't, And so even just that aspect of it which added to hellier success on the back end that nobody sees was just like the miracle thing that you never work with a team organically where everyone happens to have those pieces that you're missing. Yeah, Very, very kismet, very weird.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:So my final hellier question and I do want to circle back a little bit after this to the Stanley Hotel and the Estes method, and all that, but my final, hellier question, which is not really a question, but just to sort of say that the whole reason why we're having this interview right now is because we're smack dab in the middle on lunatics radio hour of a series on goblins and the history of goblins, and I don't even know how the topic ended up on our topic list, but we like hellier, so much, maybe, maybe, yeah.
Speaker 1:But hellier really isn't, at the end of the day, about goblins. Right, there's a lot. What we've learned from the research is, you know it's largely about the folklore of goblins and the belief in goblins and how that's evolved and you know sort of problematic belief in goblins and all of that. But I think the question I guess I have for you is season two, i think, really becomes a lot more about folklore. You know, with the green man and all of that Then season one does. But how do you think about things like goblins? It seems kind of silly sometimes, but you know these folklore elements and how they intersect with actual paranormal. You know high strangeness now in this way. You know I think hellier is a really good look into that. But as the filmmaker and the paranormal investigator behind it, like, how do you think about these things connecting in actuality?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean there's a million different kind of rabbit holes with it. That I think it's interesting. That sort of the moniker of goblin is a very folkloric type term.
Speaker 3:You know, But that we I mean it happened before my time on the project, but we didn't like spend any time trying to drill down on that connection, because the Kentucky goblins you know the Kelly Greenman was sort of a moniker that already existed And this, obviously, as the emails came in for Greg, they made the connection to the Kentucky goblin story originally, and so the whole thing felt like a revisit of that, and so the return of the Kentucky goblins was what stuck in the name alone, but it was never us drawing any parallels to those original goblin stories of folklore in terms of what these people were experiencing. And yet that was very much. What was there? because I feel like a lot of.
Speaker 3:I mean, obviously folklore is going to be global, you know, per culture, and so when you're talking about stuff like goblins, i think a lot of that kind of starts to go back to that more like UK area type fairy lore type stuff, and that goes to passport, to McGonagall and you know, jock Valley and John Keel, making these folklore connections to what we in present day refer to as, as you know, the paranormal phenomenon that we're experiencing. So for me it's kind of tough because it's another one of those areas that I don't want to like have hard opinions about, because it's all like interesting, to just sort of like consume, because folklore is such a liquid thing, you know, that's just like it's.
Speaker 3:It's just the stories that we tell that I think typically exist in the the fantastic realm, because otherwise it would be science or history right.
Speaker 3:And so I think that questioning whether or not a lot of these old folkloric stories have like roots in reality or not is a very hard thing to do when you're when you're dealing with something like the paranormal.
Speaker 3:But then to be in the modern era where you're watching these paranormal things happen seemingly, and as someone like me that's telling these stories, you know you start to realize that we're participating in the folklore of the modern age because we're having genuine experiences As far as we can tell.
Speaker 3:It starts to make you wonder about those old folkloric stories, especially when you start to draw connections between folklore stories in different cultures, about these little people that live in caves and that come from the sky and whatnot. So I think it's a fascinating dance and I kind of dance around it because taking it in a semi-objective approach, like a shock valley where it's just kind of like fairies are aliens, like that's a clear link. You know, there's something connecting here which I think is fascinating and we can use as a jumping off point, but also like appreciating, like folklore from a folklorists point of view, where it's not really about the objective reality of these things or the connections, but like the way that storytelling and the supernatural like integrated into our society, is also fascinating to me as someone that's like actively working in that space, but not as a folklorist per se. So it's kind of tricky to talk about folklore in that regard, because I think each side doesn't do the other side justice, right, and so I, and so I of course wind up taking both, both sides respectively.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So, carl, circling back a little bit to some of your paranormal history and projects you've worked on before Hellier, i have some questions for you, so I would love to hear a little bit more about your experience on Ghost Hunters Academy, ghost Hunters International, you know. How do you think about those experiences now, especially having worked on, you know, other passion projects in the space?
Speaker 3:It's starting to get so long ago now that it feels like a weird dream or something, um, because it happened so out of nowhere and then disappeared just as quickly in its own way.
Speaker 3:Academy was a weird experience because it was a show that they were still trying to figure out what the show was. When we started it, I think that they had wanted to do sort of a training up the next generation of ghost hunters sort of a show for a while And there was a new paranormal state coming out with like a new generation of investigators that was coming out in a couple of months and they wanted to release our project to compete with that. So everything turned into a big rush for ours and we shot the whole thing really fast And you can sort of see it because I think they only like voted out like a couple of people throughout the six episode show.
Speaker 3:It wasn't a consistent thing in my season, because I think they were. They were just figuring it out.
Speaker 3:So it was kind of it was mess. It was weird to be on a show where they're figuring it out as they go. It was very stressful. There was a lot of uh getting yelled at for a long time kind of moments at two in the morning that just like weren't fun. But everything else was so great, you know, like being like doing the thing and being on TV and seeing the cameras and seeing how the whole thing worked and getting to see cool locations. That was all really wonderful And so I look back on it really fondly.
Speaker 3:And then international was only one episode which was too bad, but that one was cool because it just like it was a a bit of a shock to show up to that one, because all the drama, nonsense of the reality show aspect of Academy was gone and everyone was just like great and pleasant and like welcoming And so that was really wonderful too. So I think for me it was just like a really fun experience that I was always a little confused about cosmically at the time, why it was dropped into my lap and then taken away so quickly, like I know why they didn't really call me back on the show, mostly because I just like wasn't being as good on camera as I should have been. I didn't hit my beats as as we say in the industry.
Speaker 3:You think I would have known better after having done six episodes of Academy, but for some reason, being on international, i'm like I don't know, dude, i just hear water dripping and they're like oh yeah good years Yeah.
Speaker 3:And meanwhile, i can just see the producer and editor in my brain just being like damn it, dude, we needed a commercial break here. Like you gotta freak out for a second. So I get that, but cosmically speaking I'm just like and now it's over and what? I guess I'm going to go back to college now and keep living my life. you know, after this, weird sit on TV.
Speaker 2:But looking back, I appreciate your commitment to authenticity.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so yes, thank you. That's, that was what happened, but it's cool to see, like the connections and the doors that that opened, even just the small ones, that sort of like led to the career growth as it went, have been very cool and very interesting in a way that, like I don't know if I would be making my own projects right now. Maybe, but I don't know if I would, if I'd spend another like two years on Ghost Centers International after that, or if I would just be a TV personality at this point now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what was it like being the resident paranormal investigator at the Stanley Hotel? It seems like the dream job to me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't like all things, of course, because I think for a lot of people they have talked to me about that being like the dream job, but it was a mix where the dream was being able to have the opportunity to be at a place like that for, you know, six, 12, 18 hours a week, depending on how many we did. But the flip side of it was that the priority of the job was to like give the paying customers a good time, you know, and so in that regard you're kind of a glorified tour guide, which for me was like less of the dream job, but it was a good balance. So it was fascinating.
Speaker 3:It was fascinating because it's such a rare experience to be able to get to investigate one of the most like haunted locations in the world on that regular of a basis for like five years, you know, weekly, typically, for five years. You really got to see how that activity came and went and evolved And there was a lot of things I wish we had done, kind of like going at it from a more scientific mindset in hindsight But that's always easier said than done But it taught me, i think, more than anything would in terms of kind of the nature of ghostly phenomena, at least in relationship with myself. Everyone experiences it a little differently, i think, but I learned a lot about that, where I think it's one thing to go on a handful of ghost hunts and be like man.
Speaker 3:Yeah, ghost hunting is a really subtle art And another thing to be like 250 investigations at this family and be like, yeah, ghost hunting is a subtle art, But that was also, I think, my first now that I think about it, my first real opportunity to dip my toes in mixing active investigation and experience hunting and being like telling good stories and entertaining people to make sure that they had a good time, whether the activity happened or not which as I verbalize is kind of like. you know, that's the craft of hellier and paranormal TV And that's what we're doing every week.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know you just said it's a subtle art, but did you have any? and they don't need to be explosive, but sort of defining or memorable paranormal experiences at the Stanley.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I had a handful. I think it's interesting to look back on and see how many small things happened over time up there, that there were probably so many that I've actually forgotten more experiences than I remember, because there would be so many nights that you'd hear like super distinct footsteps, you know, in the room above you and you have the building to yourself.
Speaker 3:You know that sort of moment that like in that moment it's absolutely kind of wild to hear that and like recognize it as clearly as it is. But years later, even weeks or months later, like it's just the idea of that experience, like, yes, i know we've heard footsteps up there, but like I don't, i don't really remember the occasion of that because it was such a small thing. So that was what most of the experiences were over time, but I think my my craziest one. For me one of my favorites was before I was even up there professionally. It was just when I was sort of like haunting the place, so to speak, with the resident paranormal investigator at the time.
Speaker 3:For a couple of months before I got hired on, we were doing an investigation one night I always tell the story, but I love it. It was in the winter time. we were in room 1302. And it was probably like one to AM. It was one of the only investigations where I actually dozed off for a minute. You know the cardinal sin as a ghost hunter, investigating overnight, is falling asleep, but I dozed off. I was laying in the bed in that room. Connor was there and the resident investigator, callie, was there Just a split second.
Speaker 3:I was, i was out of it And just had one of those weird hypnagogic kind of like dreams, you know where you just it's like when you doze off for just a minute or two. But you had a dream in that time And for me it was the split second super crystal clear vision in my head, almost like I was looking out of a peephole in a door at someone on the other side And it was this individual standing on the other side of the door And it was like a pig's face crossed with a man's face with like these goblin ears sticking out. But the creepiest factor was like instead of eyes there were only these two eye sockets. Looking back Sounds terrifying, yeah, and almost like it was wearing a suit or something to like kind of humanish.
Speaker 3:But the weird thing was it didn't scare me, it's, i thought. As soon as I thought that's a little bit weird, like I snapped out of it And so it was only like a 10 second thing And I woke up and I kind of expressed that was weird And I explained the story to Connor and Callie. And Callie said, like that's weirder than you know, you're freaking me out. The resident psychic at the hotel who had been up at the hotel for like 15 years or something. She her name was Madame Vera.
Speaker 3:Apparently about a year beforehand, in that same room, she had seen the same exact thing, Which I talked, talked earlier about the validation element And it's like for me to have like a weird little dream thing pop into my head is one thing, to have that validation is another thing. So she described that as an elemental entity that was part of the land around the hotel and was older than the hotel itself, and I just kind of took it for what it was And it was a weird story. But what was also weird later was I was doing some research into an article or something that I was writing about one of my other like locations that I think is very cool Lep Castle over in Ireland, which has one of these elemental type spirits.
Speaker 3:on the grounds and reading the original journal entries of one of the owners, she described that elemental as half man, half animal with eyes so black that they were or looked like eye sockets.
Speaker 3:And I was like that's another layer of that validation. That's like fasting to me is because I think that I might have had that information in the deep recesses of my mind from watching an episode you know six years beforehand. But to see those pieces linked together where I saw this thing, then learned that Madam Vera said that it was an elemental, then at least consciously relearned that that's a way that elementals present like that. That was just wild to me on so many levels that that's sort of like objective validating experience of something that's cool was not expecting So yeah, so it's not your traditional ghost story, but it's one of my favorites because it's super weird.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, it's. it's so in line with high strangeness, right, it's not your traditional ghost story, but it's still has that same effect on us, yeah, so. I want to talk about the Estes method. How did that come to be Like? tell us, tell us more about the initial impetus of it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, i think with a lot of things it's boringly banal. But like it and this is the problem with the Estes method is I don't remember the original moment of inspiration, because anyone who's ever ghost on it knows that 80% of ghost hunting sitting around in the dark having conversations, you know, just chatting with each other. All I can remember is that it was one of those like super early morning ghost hunting conversations where in some capacity it came up with just being like it would be really interesting to plug headphones into the spirit box and have a person listening to that who can't hear the questions because this thing is just spitting out so many random words. It's easy for that paradox You just hear what you want to hear. We played the spirit box on our ghost hunt at the Stanley all the time, mostly because the alternative was just like a lot of silence where people get bored. But when there's a device that's doing something constantly that people can focus their attention on, that could at any moment spit out something interesting, like it keeps everyone's attention.
Speaker 3:But, like by doing that all the time. We saw how often you hear a voice come through and says something like that rhymes with hello, but isn't. But everyone in the room was like it just said hello And you're like no no, but didn't.
Speaker 3:So I think the initial thought was to or I know the initial thought was to eliminate that and just make it like the word that came out of their mouth is the word that we are operating on, as what it said. And then, in spirits of the Stanley, you see, like that idea kicked around for a while, a year or two or something, and I always had like a pair of spare headphones in my bag just in case I needed them. And the idea was always like well, maybe one of these nights we'll give that a try. And so, for spirits of the Stanley, i think it was just the second or third episode that we were like all right, we got to do something here. It's kind of a quiet night, let's finally try that thing. And so that's why they were just like crummy earbuds. We weren't planning on doing it. And so it just evolved where it was kind of like okay, we need a better pair of headphones that we can have more confidence that the listener can't hear the questions.
Speaker 3:And it was in that first session where, i think, or one of the first two sessions that Connor said something silly like stand up or or whatever, and everyone stood up, but he wasn't blindfolded, so he kind of looked around. He was like oh, you're all, you're all standing up So you could see that they're. You know, to have someone completely cut off from their awareness of what's happening around them you'd have to like blindfold them to, otherwise there's, you know they, subconscious visual dialogue. So we introduced the blindfold. So at that point it was just kind of the evolution of the idea becoming a little bit more constrained And in spirits of the Stanley, you can see us taking it in as many directions as we could, trying to plug two people into the box, trying to record the box at the same time, sending the listener two stories away, you know, with a baby monitor, answer questions and seeing if proximity made a difference, and just doing all these experimental variations.
Speaker 3:We did one that never aired after the Stanley ended our stuff with us. That was trying to be a debunking experiment, you know, where the listener had either a prerecorded session from hours earlier or the live spirit box that he plugged into And the questioners didn't know which one was being plugged into. And we tried to to gauge the compelling, how many compelling responses there were, you know, between the two sessions, one legit and one not legit, But with all things paranormal, we don't know how this works. Is this a synchronistic element?
Speaker 3:Could a ghost throw their answers backwards in time, retro causality style or what. So it only debunks it partially if it does it all. But that's the point is. That's where our headspace was was that this wasn't sort of like an idea that came out fully formed and just existed the way that it is now, like it was an evolution, where we were constantly adding on to it and playing with it and trying to make it better And yeah, but the core crux of it, the blindfold, the headphones in the spirit box just blew up and it's everywhere now And that's insane, yeah that must be a weird feeling.
Speaker 2:I just love the ghost messing with your extra dimensional space time to debunk your debunking.
Speaker 3:I know it's yeah layers on layers. I love it Yes it's, it's anything remotely psychical, which is not to compare ourselves to actual psychical experiments, but like they're, they get so complex, so quickly you know it's like are you reading someone's mind?
Speaker 3:Are you influencing some? You know I love it. I love it, but yes, it's absolutely crazy to me. You know I follow the sdist method hashtag and whatnot and just like seeing how many people use it and just the places it pops up. And sometimes friends of mine will like send me links to videos and stuff that are like these guys are doing it on the show and they're doing it all wrong.
Speaker 3:You know and they didn't even say your names. And that doesn't bother me one because, like, as a creative especially, like I've gotten used to putting something out in the world and it becomes the audience members at that point. And the sdist method is not something I'm making money on or need recognition for it. It doesn't bother me, but it's like almost cool to see those clips because I'm just like it's wild to see how far this thing is spread because, like, if people don't cite us or they refer, to it as the sdist method, but they don't know why it's called as this you know for as this park and the Stanley.
Speaker 3:That's just testament to how far it's spread for me. Yeah, and that's only complimentary in my mind. It's out there in the world and it's huge And that's mind blowing just from a random late night ghosting conversation.
Speaker 1:Totally. My friend actually, who introduced me to Hellier, who's a paranormal, has a podcast called buried secrets. They developed this solo version. It was during the pandemic. We really wanted to use it And what they ended up doing was pre recording questions and having this whole very like complicated way of like having questions appear in random order, right, so it's not just like reading through a list and and having, you know, recording themselves back, you know. So it's really interesting to see how people are adopting it, and that was my first exposure to it was my friend Chris being like you know, i've been doing the solo method. I can you come and do it with me? It's from this, you know the show Hellier and me being like, oh, i should watch hell, you know, but that's the essence method is how I came to even find Hellier in the first place.
Speaker 3:That's awesome. That's awesome.
Speaker 3:I know for a lot of people it's the other way around, And so it's really cool to have it be the reverse in that way and that the two are pairing with each other so well, and I love that so many people have taken it and the same way that we kind of went and ran with it. I think it's very cool that other people are also inspired to think creatively about the method and they see how simple that process is and how effective it appears to be, and then how inspiring that is to try variations and, you know, do solo sessions or record them or you know, whatever, whatever other people have even come up with As much as like it's cool in a pet myself on the back way that so many people have had have spread the essence method around like.
Speaker 3:It's even cooler to me that, like the same way that Hellier inspires people to like go out and read books, it's very cool to me that the essence method seems to inspire people to like try variations on it and think creatively about, about what they're doing.
Speaker 2:I think it's just very accessible compared to many other you know I've humored Abby and many different paranormal hunting tools. I don't know what the term for this is Methods. Methods, sure, and that was the only one where, like it's, you know whether it's from ghosts or not, like I, i, i spooked myself. You know it's, it's so, you, you're going to get results. The source of that, which is why I'm so skeptical.
Speaker 3:Ghost hunting for so long you learn how rare good activity is, And so.
Speaker 3:I think that that's as one of the creators of the SS method. I think that's why I'm so skeptical is that I've never seen anything in ghost hunting aside from, like, the super broken recording devices that have a lot of static for for ghost TVPs. I don't think I've seen anything with such a high success rate quote, unquote And that makes me really skeptical that I'm just like it feels like 90% of people using this thing you know like every time they use it they're getting some sort of result Guaranteed ghosts.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, And anything like that is always sketchy. So I think part of that is is the question, the questioning that people do with it. I think that we learned very quickly at the Stanley that like asking good structured questions and trying to like keep to those questions in order to make it the most like validating and verifiable response sure, sure Is really important.
Speaker 2:That's what they're saying, yeah.
Speaker 3:Exactly And I think a lot of people run with what they're saying. But I think that only accounts for a small percentage of wild experiences people have. So I don't know. I'm curious to continue to see where it goes. I've written like 50 pseudo scientific pages about how it works or how to debunk it or like what the statistics are of these responses. But at the end of the day it's, it's got a life of its own And I don't know it'll be weird to flash forward 50 years. People are like this was the thing that cracked the spirit world open.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Like okay, well, all right, It becomes standard issue for all citizens.
Speaker 3:You got your your phone on the wall and your spirit box next to it, depending on which state of reality you need to order a pizza from.
Speaker 1:Awesome, i think. my last question for you, carl, which again might be an ethereal one in a way, but how did you initially get into the paranormal, you know? did you have an experience early on, or was it more so kind of a lifelong fascination with what could be out there?
Speaker 3:It's really been. It's that lifelong fascination and it really goes back to as as far back as I can remember. In a way that makes me feel like you know souls or you know your person as a, you know something that was around before your physical body. It makes me wonder, because there was no like one thing I don't know. It's just like my. My fascination with the dark and creepy and mysterious was there so early, like I cut my teeth on Tim Burton's Batman movies, you know loved them.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I was weird for like a five year old in some regards, but I was all about it And like early Halloween's as a kid, I remember making little ghosts to hang on the trees and just being like obsessed with ghosts and those Halloween books And my aunt and uncle sent a postcard from Universal Studios of the Ghostbusters performance that they had. And I saw that and I was like what is this?
Speaker 2:You know, and I'm like five.
Speaker 3:And so my dad like, rents and rips the VHS at Ghostbusters from the library, you know, and I just like treated that shit like it was a documentary you know, just like this is.
Speaker 3:I took it so seriously. And from there is just everything, ghosts and then everything, aliens, in a way that like nothing prompted it so much as just like just being super addicted to all of these things remotely in that space. And I have a twin brother, no less. I'm 10 minutes older than him for eternal twin brother, and he's not into this stuff, not like I am. So that makes it even more fascinating to me that, like two kids that like grew up in the exact same household have such like different interests in a way that makes it feel like this was just like part of just like who I was before.
Speaker 3:I was, you know, but I've always, I've always loved it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you? do you have a memory of the first time you felt something paranormal happen, after this lifelong fascination that like felt, like it validated that or no?
Speaker 3:I wish that I did, because it goes back to that like subtlety of the paranormal experiences where it's like I can remember, like you know, having sleepovers and like freaking myself out about the dark, creepy basement, when you know you put yourself in that headspace. And I can remember small things. You know, at my folks house, which was never like haunted, but like you know, I think, a lot of houses over the years, a weird thing happens once every two years.
Speaker 3:And so I remember stuff like the ice cream scoop rolling off of the towel in the kitchen three and a half hours after it was dried off and put there, you know, and nobody was around, sort of a thing. Or you know, reading on the couch and hearing somebody say hello, but giving it no thoughts. And then my dad says, did somebody just say hello? And I go, oh my God, i think they did.
Speaker 1:But I don't have a concrete enough memory of it.
Speaker 3:Yeah So like remember it because I was distracted and wrote it off immediately. You know, it's like stuff like that, that like there was never. Like seeing a ghost, that's like, Oh my God, this is what I've been waiting for. But like all these little split second moments that make you go like in hindsight like what was that?
Speaker 2:And I know that that's most people's ghost experiences.
Speaker 3:Even at the Stanley, i think, a lot of the people that did see something, a lot of people were worried about getting scared and seeing something scary, but it was very reassuring because it was like, honestly, like I feel like 70, 80% of the people that see stuff here nine times out of 10, just throwing up percentages now nine times out of 10, like you think that it's a real person when it happens And it's only after the fact that you realize it couldn't have been a real person.
Speaker 3:that, i think, is where a lot of those experiences lay, and so they're less of like the aha moments and more of the retrospective, like what the heck was that? Like the security camera show that no one was up there the entire hour, but we saw a person up there. you know, like it's that sort of like space that it seems to live in is it's almost more looking back on it than it is.
Speaker 2:Right, experiencing it. Every time we have a guest, we ask them about their paranormal experiences and it's usually a situation where like yeah, it's like you know I saw this guy, or like this person like you know handed me this thing And then, just like after the fact, we found out that that that person wasn't there. That's crazy.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's it's wild and it's validating to hear And I think it's super bizarre to think about because it's like you know, i think we've got all this like perspective on what ghosts are and how you experience them. You see a see through person, walk through the other room But, like, as you say, i feel like the weirder side of it is almost more the how many people have much more tangible experiences with, with entities that are like interacting with them or the environment in a way that's like well, that's not just like some like smokey figure, like right, that's friggin manifested here. So that's that's where I like going back to those primary sources for people's short spooky stories, because it's a little mind melting when you realize it's. It might not be quite how you imagined, it might be weirder.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i won't, i won't go into the whole thing, but my, i had this paranormal. It's exactly what you're saying, which is the only reason why I'm bringing it up now, where essentially for many years as a kid I I lived in very rural Connecticut. It was just woods and trees And I could hear this like chanting, and like fire crackling drums, like out at night. My whole family was like your imagination's crazy. Like you know, i'm sure you'll be a great writer one day.
Speaker 1:But there's, there's not like anything happening. And then I sort of forgot about it. And then, many years later, as an adult, they brought in like a local team of paranormal investigators to the town because there's like these historic homes and things, and they they went to the town barn and presented their findings And they they said like we didn't really find anything except when we were in the backyard of this house, which would have been kind of the same area where my house was We heard this chanting and we followed it. And as we followed it and it was like it all like flooded back to me, like it wasn't something I was hung up on as an adult.
Speaker 1:But when I heard them say it I was like right, remember when I kept coming to you guys and I was like no, we have no memory of this but it was really validating right To hear someone else like but it wasn't like haunting me or, you know, even in my brain until I heard someone else like echo it back, you know which makes it even more validating, because you weren't like searching out that validation You weren't forcing something to fit, like it just appeared later on and verified everything you experienced, i love it.
Speaker 1:Carl, thank you so much for coming on the show. I can't tell you how awesome this was, how much of a fan I am, and it was so illuminating. You've been so open and generous with us, so thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 3:Of course, it was a lot of fun. Thank you for coming and thank you for all the kind words. that means a lot and it's cool to hear.
Speaker 2:Well, your work holds a very special place in this household.
Speaker 1:It does.
Speaker 3:That's amazing. That's amazing here. Thanks.
Speaker 1:And everyone keep an eye out for the unbinding coming very, very soon.
Speaker 3:It's shaping up really fast but it's going to be available for rental and for purchase on a bunch of different places. We're hoping for a summer release at this point. We just passed quality control on it, so there shouldn't be any big delays. So it should definitely be this summer and feature link documentary about the, the Catskills Crone, one of Craig and Dana's weirdest objects in their collection. And very excited. It's a cool one. It's going to be a good one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, super exciting, super intriguing. And, of course, we're going to link Hellier in the description of all of this so that everyone can watch it. We're also going to link Carl's Twitter and Instagram handles, which are at Carl Pfeiffer, but we'll make sure it's really easy for everyone to find you and keep an eye on what's coming.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Yeah, great, there's a. After the long COVID delay and life situation, it's finally. it's finally time that we've got some new stuff coming out And it's, i think, going to be off to the races from from here on. Thank you.
Speaker 1:The fans are excited and I can tell you how excited everyone is going to be to hear that there's season three in the work.
Speaker 3:So it's been slowly but surely it's, it's shaped up, Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, awesome, thanks so much. Talk to you soon.
Speaker 3:All right, thanks guys, bye, bye.