Allison Park Leadership Podcast
A podcast where we have culture-creating conversations.
The world today is too complicated and messy for Christians to avoid tackling the difficult questions.
Hosted by Pastor Jeff Leake and his son Dave Leake, the Allison Park Leadership Podcast is a series of conversations designed to help Christians advance their leadership and equip them to lead through uncertain times.
Allison Park Leadership Podcast
Was Jesus a Christian Nationalist?
What is Christian Nationalism? Would Jesus have been a Christian Nationalist?
Jeff and Dave Leake discuss the growing movement of Christian nationalism, its potential to undermine the separation of church and state, and the limitations of various alternatives.
They explore the definition and impact of Christian nationalism, its good and dangerous aspects, and the potential dangers of idolatry and a culture war.
Lastly, they discuss the complex relationship between Christianity and patriotism in America, acknowledging both the positive impact of Christian values and the danger of Christian dominance.
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Email:
Jeffl@allisonparkchurch.com
Davel@allisonparkchurch.com
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@Jeffleake11
@Dave.Leake
On today's episode, we're gonna be talking about Christian nationalism. So what is it? Is it dangerous? Is it good? Is there an alternative? Is there a better way? If you're wondering even, what is Christian nationalism, tune in. Find out more. Hey everybody, welcome to the Allison Park leadership podcast. We have our culture creating conversations. I'm one of your hosts. My name is Dave,
Jeff Leake:and my name is Jeff, and of course, we're both on staff at Allison Park church, and I'm the lead pastor there. Dave is Northside campus pastor. We're in more father and son. What makes this conversation interesting? We talked about culture creating conversations is that oftentimes we talk about controversies, theologies, and, you know, other kinds of things that are going on in the world, current events. We try to do that from a multi generational and biblical
Dave Leake:worldview. Examine social and spiritual issues through a Christian worldview. Yeah,
Jeff Leake:and specifically for church leaders and for those who are followers of Christ, and we're trying to interpret how we should think, because how we think often shapes you know who we are and how we behave and the culture we create around us. So we just want to say, thanks for joining us. I know we always do a little bit of welcome. So you want to do that in terms of the reviews. Yes,
Dave Leake:give people a shout out. No, no new reviews. To do a shout out today, but we just want to say thank you for listening, thank you for being a part of this. If you are first time joining us in this podcast, welcome to the family. If you're a longtime listener, thanks for being here. And we would love to give you a shout out. If you can leave us a five star review on whatever platform you're listening, that'd be great. But specifically for those who can lead a five star review an apple pop, we would really appreciate it. Yeah, we can see your name, and we'd love to give you a shout out, just to say thank you for being a part of all this. Yeah. So
Jeff Leake:as we talk today, we are in the middle of July, 2024 this is an election year. We are just a few months away from the November election. Currently, the Republic national, Republican National Convention is going on, and actually, I'm a little surprised that the tension levels aren't higher than they they they were in in you know, what I thought they would be. I could just because 2020, was crazy, high tension. Although just a couple of days ago there was the assassination attempt on President Trump, someone here locally in our community, because some you know, happened in our backyard. We have a campus in Butler, which is where the the shooting, shooting happened, and then we have relatives who attend Ellison Park Church of the man who was actually killed. So I guess it's I say the tensions are as high as I expected, and then there's an assassination attempt. But we, of course, are in the middle of what has been a culture war.
Dave Leake:Maybe the divisions aren't as intense as they as they felt. Yeah, although
Jeff Leake:I was surprised, Dave, I was on social media yesterday, and I was I don't go on to threads or Twitter very often, but I happen to be reading threads about the assassination attempt, and what I discovered is that on both sides of the political aisle, there are conspiracy theories about the assassination. Some think it that it was planned by Trump, and it's a hoax, and I think that it was planned by the Secret Service and they wanted to kill him. And there's all these theories that are going, I'm not saying either one is true or untrue. Honestly, I don't know who to trust in terms of sometimes the sources of information. Obviously, it was potentially, it was very tragic for the family involved, and could have been potentially way more nationally impacting if Trump had died. But all that to say, in this election year, we were debating whether or not to wade into this territory at all, because the political world can be but we decided we should probably talk about a term that is being used now to describe a lot of people, especially on the right side of the political aisle, called Christian nationalism. What should we think about it? Is it dangerous? Is it good? Is it holy? Is it the right way to think? Is it completely at odds with Christianity in general. This is the term that we want to address, and we know that as we wade out into these waters, there's there's danger here. So we're going to try to do this in a way like we, like we do with everything, where we have an open conversation, we we try our best to wrestle through some things, and no way are we trying to offend. But you know, places like this are the places you were supposed to talk about stuff like this is this is how we've decided to do it, not on, you know, posts or memes on social media, but in a podcast where we can have a meaningful conversation. So why don't we start with defining it? Yeah, right.
Dave Leake:What is Christian nationalism? Because maybe not everybody even knows that term.
Jeff Leake:So let me read it off Google here. So Christian nationalism is a type of religious nationalism that is affiliated with Christianity. It primarily focus on internal politics of society, such as legislating civil or criminal laws that reflect. Uh, their view of Christianity and their role in their of religion, in political and social
Dave Leake:life that long I gotta I got a shorter, shorter one. Go ahead, give me that from Christianity today. I think what it is Christian nationalism is the belief that the American nation is defined by Christianity and that their government should take active steps to keep it that way. And I think a part of that is and therefore Christians should be as active as possible in influencing the government so that we become a Christian nation, yeah. And
Jeff Leake:then, okay, read that statement again. Read it slowly. The Christian that's a really good summary statement to kind of start us out. So it's the
Dave Leake:belief that the American nation is defined by Christianity and that the government should take active steps to keep it that way. Okay, as a Christian nation, just
Jeff Leake:in reading that statement right there you have people. There are some people listening to who say, Amen, absolutely. And there are other people who are also Christians who are like, Absolutely not. That's incredibly dangerous. So depending upon where you are in your worldview, and maybe some people are like, Oh, I never knew that before, right? So there's probably all three of those reactions to that particular statement. So, so where do we go?
Dave Leake:Well, I mean, so you wanted to talk about Christian nationalism, its impact on the world, and how we respond to it. Like, is it a good thing? Is a bad thing? Where should we fall in terms of this issue? It's, it's obviously a huge issue in churches, because there are some churches that are Christian, nationalist churches, yeah, that's like, what they talk about 10 they tend to be Republican churches. Will do we were talking about doing a future episode that's more on left wing issues. This one we want to talk about right wing with what Christian nationalism is anyway. So I think we want to talk about, how do we respond to this, like, is it good? Is it bad? Is it neutral? What are the parts of it that are good? What are the part Are there parts of it that are dangerous as leaders and as pastors? Yeah.
Jeff Leake:So let's ask. What should we do? Yeah. Let's start with the first question. Is America Christian nation? Let's begin there, because I think that is one of these. I guess it's the foundational question of Christian nationalism. Would you say? Yeah, sure. So. So I think when America was founded in 1776 with the Declaration of Independence, it was formed as a country that made a specific decision not to be defined by any particular denomination. So in the Bill of Rights, when it was written and ratified, freedom of religion was put in there, which was designed because one of the things that was on the table was that everyone who belonged to America had to be Presbyterian, or had to be Catholic or had to be whatever. Because in Europe, which is where most of the people came from, there was a national religion, which tended to be a Christian denomination, Anglicanism. Well, Great Britain was Anglicanism, which is, we'll get, we can get into that later, which is really true Christian nationalism, because the queen or king is actually the head of the church. So that's that's very unusual. That would probably be a real good example of of of you know what Christian nationalism looks like. But there was a strategic decision of freedom of religion, which led to the United States being formed as a pluralistic society, meaning that you could belong and be a citizen in the United States and not have to give allegiance to any particular creed or faith or worldview, that everybody would be welcome, and everyone could hold office, and it didn't matter if you're Christian or Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, atheist, whether you were a Christian, but were Catholic or Presbyterian or Methodist or whatever, that everyone was was welcome. So technically, I would say the United States was founded as a pluralistic society, and there was, for the longest time on the currency. I think it's a Latin statement, e pluribus unum, which means, out of many, one, which means that we're all different. We all came from different places with different perspectives, but we're all together, one nation. So it's interesting. I was, I was just researching this, and I read that that statement which was on the money was eventually replaced by In God We Trust, because in the 1950s there was a concern of the with the rise of godless communism. And so In God We Trust was put on the currency in place of E Pluribus Unum to say, No, we are a God fearing nation, so the tension you can see there out of that particular moment. But historically, we were formed with pluralistic expectations, but the predominant religion of the founders was Christianity. So I don't know. That, if that helps, but we would say, technically, we're not a Christian nation. We are a pluralistic nation that has had the heavy influence of Judeo Christian leadership from its inception. Yeah, right, okay,
Dave Leake:I think already and just on that take, not everybody would agree with you. Because I think, I think a lot of people think we are a Christian nation, or will believe that we're a Christian
Jeff Leake:nation. Yeah. Well, so there were some states that were founded that were dedicated to the worship of God, you know, there were, there were a lot of organizations, like Harvard, that were formed for the advancement of the gospel. Yeah, right. So there to say there wasn't enormous influence of Christianity or Christian leadership from the very beginning. I mean, you had, you had George Washington, who was praying prayers and in public, and, you know, days of fasting and prayer that were declared during moments of crisis and but, but, I guess you would say the United States was formed as a republic, Republican democracy, which was designed with a lot of Christian influence, but was never overtly Christian in its label, because, because, again, it was designed to be a pluralistic
Dave Leake:so let me ask you a question, do you think? Do you think that Christian nationalism? I'm going to use another term here, because we're going to describe, but is that, is that, does that ascribe to dominion theology?
Jeff Leake:So those who believe in dominion theology oftentimes lean into the idea of Christian nationalism. But I don't think dominion theology was around when, when America was founded, but, but there was an idea as as the settlers from Europe went across the country, yeah, and settled the United States, there was a doctrine in the 1800s called Manifest Destiny, which is the idea that God has given us this land, and that we're supposed to conquer this land, Just like the people of Israel conquered the land of Canaan, that manifest destiny, theology was actually an improper interpretation of Scripture, as if America now is the new Israel, right in God's eyes, sure, and that this land is being given as a promised land, and therefore we have to overtake the Native Americans to be able to conquer this land, just like Israel overtook the Canaanites. And so the theological backdrop to the expansion westward was this bad idea of America being the new Israel and the promised land. So dominion theology is a contemporary idea, which is that I
Dave Leake:just read the Yeah, go ahead. Um, dominion theology states that biblical Christianity will rule all areas of society, personal and corporate. Yeah, so it's almost,
Jeff Leake:well, it's the idea that we will operate in such faith and excellence as Christian leaders, that we will eventually bring the kingdom of God on earth through our leadership, and then once we have the kingdom of God established here on earth, Jesus will return to take take over what we've built for him
Dave Leake:feels really closely linked to Christian nationalism, well, but
Jeff Leake:it isn't just this nation. It would be every nation. Okay? So theology would be okay, yeah, kingdom of God on earth established by Christian leaders in every nation on earth, whereas Christian nationalism would be that we were founded as a the new promised land, and that we were supposed to take this land to be the new centerpiece of what God's doing in the world. What's your viewpoint
Dave Leake:on dominion theology?
Jeff Leake:Okay, so dominion theology, I think I think I disagree with it eschatologically, meaning that I don't think that things get better and better and better. And then Jesus comes back to take over what we've built for him. I think actually what what the Scriptures seem to indicate is that there eventually is a spiraling out of control of the world and the coming of Antichrist and the Tribulation. And then eventually Jesus returns for one final moment of conquest. So I do believe that we should believe in faith that God has given us dominion over the powers of darkness, and that He has given us dominion over our lives, and that we should expect His blessing and favor in what we do. But I wouldn't believe it in terms of a worldview or expectation that way? Yeah, so let's but let's go back. Sure. Let's go back to the topic at hand. Okay, so a lot of people will say, I think Christian nationalism is incredibly dangerous. Why do people think it's so dangerous? You're asking me, yeah, I
Dave Leake:think people that think of Christian nationalism, it tends to be, I'll just say it conjures images in my mind, of of gun toting. You know, people that, through violent means, want to take every form of government back to establish conservative, traditional Christian laws. Yeah. So it's. To I think people feel like it's dangerous, because it almost feels like modern crusades, like you use, you're able to use whatever means necessary, yeah, as long as the ends are Christian, if the ends are Christian, whatever means go. And I think people think like that's a crazy yeah.
Jeff Leake:Well, a lot of times people use Christian nationalism, and they put the term white in front of it. Yeah, right. White Christian nationalism, which is the idea that this nation was founded for white people who are Christians, and that everyone else needs to get on board with white Christian thinking. And if you don't, you're considered almost a second class citizen. So it's like this, we are the dominant population group, and everyone needs to conform to us. Yeah, that's how it's viewed from some vantage points that it's that it I don't think that the people that I know that would lean into Christian nationalism as their worldview actually think that way. Most of the people that I know are not trying to be white, Christian nationalist, and, you know, spread out white superiority across the world. I think, I think it has more to do with a cultural change that's happened in our society, and people longing for the way things used to be right, because there was a certain societal structure that was set up with a value on marriage and a value on life and a certain view of sexuality and in a certain view of the world, and patriotism. And then the world changed, and a lot of people who are, you know, leaning into Christian nationalism, just long for things to be the way they used to be. But there is that, that feeling that it's dangerous now I think, Dave, it might be good for us. Because here's what I often feel, is when someone criticizes something like Christian nationalism and they say this is really dangerous, what we don't get is the idea of what they would propose in its place. So almost like Christian nationalism is bad. So what should we have? And the idea is we should have utopia, which is like a perfect world where everybody gets along and everyone's equal. And, you know, there is no problems that exist so well, I
Dave Leake:have a okay, I want to hear this. Am I going to disrupt your point if I No, jump in, interrupt with an alternative? Yeah, I think, I don't think that people usually think of an alternative, no, I know they don't. So, so it's like, it's like, Christian nationalism is bad. What's the alternative? It's like, well, I don't, I don't think a lot of people have an end goal, no, of what things should look like. It's just, you know, you don't like that. That's bad. Well, that's what we have bad right now. Yeah, it's also bad, but that's extra bad because that sounds so
Jeff Leake:let's compare. So Muslim nationalism is what we call Sharia law. Many countries in in the Middle East operate and in Africa operate off of a Muslim nationalism, which is the idea that the imams in a culture set the moral rules for society, and then everybody has to conform to that. It's a merging of religion and governance. And so Sharia law is one form of religious nationalism, sure. Okay, other alternatives. Why I say is Great Britain was actually the ultimate Christian nationalism. In fact, when I went to London in November of last year, and I visited the great cathedrals in London. It's really disturbing to me, because what is on the stained glass windows is not pictures of Jesus and his apostles only. You get some of that. You get the kings and queens from the past. So you have this mixture of monarchy and religion, right? And so, you know, the king or queen is the head of the church. The Anglican Church was formed because the king wanted a divorce. And so he names himself the head of the church because he rejects Catholicism. And so the British Empire was true, complete, you know, Christian nationalism now it's not anymore, because basically, Great Britain has forsaken its Christian roots. Basically it no longer really even believes in much of Christianity, but in its original form, it was that okay, so if it's not if it's not Sharia law, it's not monarchy mixed with religion. What are the other options? Well, there's Marxism, which is basically another episode in this in the future, bro, yeah, Marxism, which is basically where you pit one class against another and attempt to tear down those who have power so that everything can be shared equally. But communism, almost communism and Marxism almost always ends in brutal violence and then quickly moves into dictatorship, sure. So you never find in the last century communist Marxist countries and leaders were saw over 100 million people, 100 million. Billion people, like we talk about the Crusades as an evil of what would have been considered, you know, a Christian nationalistic idea, to go back and take Israel as being terrible, where 1000s of people died, but we're talking about 100 million people died because of Marxism in the last century. So Marxism never lasts long and never promise delivers on what it promises, because there is never equality, which is the vision we hope communist China's lasted a decent amount of time, but there is an equality, sure, and when there is, it tends to be a quality of poverty. Yeah, that's what's happened in Venezuela, or it shifts into dictatorship. And dictatorship is another option, which is what's happened in Nicaragua, where you have what was a Marxist revolution that then became an Ortega dictatorship, sure, and where everybody that disagrees with
Dave Leake:it, but it sounds like this have to be as if, like, the best option out there is Christian No, what
Jeff Leake:I'm saying is that there is no perfect governance structure. Okay, so when we point and say, well, Christian nationalism isn't bad. Well then, well, what's the other options? Right there? There are, there are a lot of options. Socialism is another one, capitalistic social more of a moderate version of, well, America has become very much influenced, I don't so you have capitalism and socialism with these economic systems. And pure capitalism is bad because it abuses the worker and pure so socialism tends to be bad because it doesn't create economic engines for growth. In Sweden, you have this mixture of capitalistic society that has a heavy emphasis on socialism that has a queen, right? It's like, it's like the whole mix of it together. So would you say that's the perfect governance structure. I don't think there is a perfect governance structure. What I love about the United States of America's governance structure is that it it realizes, and this is some of the Christian influence that everyone tends towards selfishness and evil. And if there isn't checks and balances on a society, even pure democracy typically ends up with the majority becoming a mob that destroys its opponent. So we have these checks and balances built into our society, where we're a Republican democracy, and you have these, the House and Senate, the presidency and the Supreme Court, who check each other. And you have the or they're supposed to, or they're supposed to. And then you have the Electoral College, which makes sure that the small states aren't dominated by the large ones. And you have these checks because the system, and you have the justice system, which is designed where you're tried before a jury of your peers, because it recognizes we all have a tendency towards evil and to want to dominate each other. And so there should be built into the structure, some checks and balances to make sure we don't do that to one another. I actually think that's a beautiful Republican democracy has typically delivered freedom to various parts of the world. When you say Republican, you don't mean the party. You don't mean the party. I mean Republican means rule by law. Sure, democracy means rule by majority. So it's a combination of majority rule with checks and balances provided by the system of governance and the law. And here's what I would say, I think that a lot of times the resistance to the Christian nationalist movement is a desire to remove Christianity as an influence in the world. Okay, I'm in favor of Christianity, having influence in every sector of society, but not dominance,
Dave Leake:right? Okay, so, so I think you were gonna talk about alternative. Did you have an alternative percent? No,
Jeff Leake:I just gave you them all. Okay, what I'm saying, utopia, and then you got, oh, utopia is where everything works perfectly, and everybody's selfless, and everybody gets along like that. That doesn't exist, right? That's heaven one day. Yeah? So, so we often compare Christian nationalism to utopia, and what I'm saying is, or to nothing or to nothing, yeah, right. What I'm saying is, I think the idea of Christian dominance, which would be equivalent to what we see with Sharia law, is is not how our country was founded, and I say that
Dave Leake:it's dangerous. So
Jeff Leake:I don't think Christian dominance has ever produced the results we hope for. Like Christendom was what we called the European continent when it was governed by the Pope, who was the king maker, and he would basically appoint the kings in various provinces. It didn't result in revival. It didn't result in a harvest of souls. It didn't produce a great commission. It was just simply a way for the church and the state to be merged together in the way it functioned. So from a Christian perspective, I don't think having Christian dominance accomplishes the purpose of Jesus in the world. And I think if we have Christian dominance, or we think that America is the new Israel. We are now moving away from what Jesus said is the centerpiece of what he's trying to do in this world, which is to work through the church every nation, a multi ethnic movement of God in every nation across the world, where one nation is not held up over another, but we're. Are seeing the people of God come together to pursue a kingdom which is not of this this world. It's a Kingdom that's greater. So I wouldn't want to see Christian dominance, because I don't think it produces the fruit that we're after. I think what we need is a move of God, and we need to see the church be what it's designed to be. Yeah. So is it dangerous? I'll say something a little bit radical. Okay, so I don't think Christian nationalism is as so dangerous to the United States. I think it's dangerous to Christianity. So yes, it's dangerous, from my point of view, because it can lead you into idolatry, where you're now no longer worshiping Jesus and participating with his multi ethnic move throughout the the world, in every nation, through the church. And it replaces the church in in the Great Commission, with a national establishment of power, yeah, which is not what, what Jesus came to produce. So I don't think it's our mission on earth to produce a Christian nation. I think it's our mission that we are a people of God from every nation on earth, every ethnicity. God's holy nation, his royal priesthood. You can't substitute that. But now, now, now, should I? Should I goes down some so I was raised with this. I was just gonna ask you this I was raised with, are you gonna talk about statue of green? I was raised with this Christian, nationalistic thinking. And because I love my heritage, I love the fact that my family came from, from Italy and became a part of this country I love, I love the Republican democracy, although I
Dave Leake:do want to hear some good news. Yeah, yesterday, I was looking at my 23andme DNA report, yeah, because I don't know, I was talking with somebody else about this, and it updated my gene markers. And whereas you're 50% so I assumed I'd
Jeff Leake:be, well, I'm actually technically Dave. I'm 38% Italian according to my DNA, that's crazy. I'm 34%
Dave Leake:okay, so I must have gotten all you had to give me 34% it's the majority that I have out of any other ethnicity. So, yeah, go Italy. Anyway. Sorry, going back into this. Oh, by the way, I also think it's funny, just just to give a little bit of a background behind the scenes for behind the scenes for this. So you were telling us the story, which you're going to tell in a second, about growing up in your heritage, and one of the songs you sang. And I just thought it was funny because you pulled up this YouTube video from what, like, 1975 or something, of these people singing this song, and instantly it's like people Debbie Lynch was like, her Eagle ear senses popped out, and she was like, I was, I was standing
Jeff Leake:out in the office space, and when I was playing it for a couple of people, because we were talking about this podcast, and instantly, when the song started playing, people came from everywhere to watch the video. Like, what are you guys doing over here? Oh, so
Dave Leake:why don't tell us about the video? Okay, so
Jeff Leake:I was, I was raised in an environment of okay, born in 1964 I was 12 years old in 1976 during the Bicentennial, 200 years since the founding of the United States of America, and during the bicentennial celebration, there was tremendous patriotic feeling. Let me, let me just describe now. It was a different world back then. Everyone was patriotic. You were a Democrat. You were patriotic. Regardless of what your racial background. You were patriotic. Everybody had this feeling of America's 200 years old. Let's celebrate. There was no controversy over I mean, there was a little bit here and there where some people tried to burn the flag. There's this one little moment that happens where, I think it was the Chicago Cubs were playing, and somebody jumped out of the stands and went into center field and were was burning the flag, and Rick Monday, who was the outfielder, he ran and he grabbed the flag away from him, and he rescued the flag, and everybody went crazy. And the whole world celebrated, because there was no controversy at that moment over the flag, over the national anthem, over the bicentennial celebration. So there was tremendous high patriarch feeling, gotta remember that coming out of World War Two, after, you know, our troops went to liberate Europe from Nazi control, there was just a high sense of pride in the history and culture of the United States. Okay, so I'm 12 years old. I'm at the Pennsylvania, Delaware youth convention. And probably the most prominent musical presence in our district at the time is a group called the couriers. And many people who, who are here in this will will remember this, you know the song these, these guys were amazing musicians and southern gospel quartet, okay, which, which dates this time? Okay, there was, there was no Christian rock at the time. So anyway, they sang this song, and it came out on the stage. They were dressed in red, white and blue tuxedos. They had Uncle Sam top hats, and they sang this famous song called. Statue of Liberty. Two verses to the Statue of Liberty. The first one was patriotic and celebrated America, and the second one was a song celebrating Christianity. Want to give us
Dave Leake:a little bit of the song here you want me to sing. It really needs
Jeff Leake:three part harmony, so I used to sing this song with an accompaniment track, which was like the karaoke thing that we used to do back in the day. But so the first verse, should I do? The words here I have it. Okay, good. Give me words. No, no, no. You read them, since I'm talking,
Dave Leake:you read the whole thing. Or just the, like, just the Okay,
Jeff Leake:let's first verse first, first one, and then verse two. All
Dave Leake:right. Verse One is in New York Harbor stands a lady with a torch race to the sky. By the way, it's a lot slower than this. I'm like, Yeah, going Lightspeed, based on the video I saw, right? And all who see her know she stands for liberty for you and me,
Jeff Leake:so. And all who see her know she stands for liber so you get the idea for you and me, I'm
Dave Leake:so proud to be calling American to be named with the brave and free. I will honor a flag and and our trust in God and the Statue of
Jeff Leake:Liberty. Okay, so the first verse chills going up and down my spine. They're dressed in red. It's the bicentennial. I'm I'm 12. I'm crying at your camp, right? It was youth convention, 10,000 young people together. It was it was amazing. It was electric. Okay, very patriotic song. Do
Dave Leake:you want to second verse? Very patriotic. Nothing
Jeff Leake:wrong with patriotic songs. I think it's wonderful. So God bless America. I mean, come on now, okay. I remember God Bless America being sung after 911 and how our whole nation came together. So absolutely wonderful. Okay, the second verse then uses the Statue of Liberty to talk about,
Dave Leake:there's, there's one lyric that's sort of like shocking to me to be like, Whoa. I'm sure it wasn't at the time. But so on. Lonely Golgotha stood across with my lord race to this guy, and all who kneel there live forever, as all the saved can testify, I'm so glad to be called a Christian, to be named with the ransom and whole as the statue liberates the citizens of the cross liberates the soul. Oh, the cross is my Statue of Liberty. It was there that my soul was set free, unashamed of proclaimed that a rugged cross is my Statue of Liberty, yeah, what's
Jeff Leake:the, what's the part that just the, oh, the
Dave Leake:cross is my Statue of Liberty. That sounds crazy, well,
Jeff Leake:so it was using it as the idea, just like we're free as Americans, so the cross sets is free as Christians, right, right? I guess I get that theologically, it makes sense. Again, a very moving song mixes patriotism with Christianity, in a way, you could say this is almost like an anthem of Christian nationalism, and it sort of mixes this that, you know, we have, have this great heritage in our country and freedom, and we love what what this country has meant to us, and we we love Jesus, and we love what Jesus has meant to us. And there's a freedom that we get spiritually, and there's a freedom that we get nationally, okay. The only problem I have with this idea is that it sort of puts on parallel the flag and the cross, as if these are the two things that we hold. And in a way, I think, okay, I can see the theological implication of it to say that freedom has come to us spiritually and it's come to us nationally. What's a little bit of a danger is that we can, we need to recognize that the cross and the person of Jesus Christ is so much higher than our love for country, like they are parallel. In a way, they the freedom that we have in Christ is parallel, in some ways, it's illustrated by freedom we have in this country, but the love for Jesus is is so much greater, and our allegiance to his church is so much greater, and it isn't this. So it isn't the same when we look at what the cross has done for us, Jesus did for us on the cross and what we have in America, we should be patriotic. We should honor our country. We should love the heritage we have. I'm not saying anything against that, but I think there is a danger of holding them too closely together, because that's where we can sort of get this. I don't know, confusion over where our real allegiance lies. You know Jesus says this one statement, and he says, if your love for me is literally, say you can't, you can't be my disciples unless you hate your mother and father, your your your you know your children in comparison, not saying hate your family, saying, in comparison, your love for me has to be so much greater than even your love for your family. And I think what we have to realize is that our allegiance to Jesus has to be so much greater than our love for our country that it almost seems like hatred, right? So, so we would say God's not saying hate your family, but he's saying your love for Christ has to be greater than your love for your family. He's not saying. Hate your country, but he's saying your love for Christ has to be so much greater. He's not saying hatred city. I gotta know, right?
Dave Leake:Luke, 1425, large crowds were traveling with Jesus and turning to them, he said, If anyone comes to Me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, even their own life, such a person cannot be my disciple, and whoever does not carry their cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple. Yeah,
Jeff Leake:so, so, so I think we have to distance our allegiance to Jesus from our allegiance to anything else, and we can't marry them too closely, because if we do, we can get a little confused over what we really belong to. And so that's why I say Christian nationalism. I'm less concerned about its effect on the country. I'm more concerned about its effect on Christianity, because it can become an idolatry, yeah? Like anything you worship, other than Jesus, becomes an idol in your life. Yeah? I think it's also potentially bad theology. It is because we start to think America is the center of the world, rather than that God's work through the church and the world in every nation with every ethnicity is is the center of what he's trying to do. Yeah, yeah. And we start to think that Christian dominance is the solution to the cultural problems or the moral decay that we see. And I actually don't think that that's the solution to that problem either. I think that's revival, that's discipleship, that's, that's being an influence, that's being a servant, that's, that's, that's so being dominant is not the goal. Actually, that's actually what Jesus says. We're not like the power structure of this world that seek to lord it over others, yeah, but the one who's called great in the kingdom of God should be the servant, yeah,
Dave Leake:well, I mean, even, even Galatians three, sort of is a little bit, I think not. It's not anti patriotic, and saying you can't be proud of your country, but it definitely singles us out as our country, or any other identifier, is not our primary identifier. It can't be. I mean, in Galatians, 2326 says so. In Christ, Jesus, you are all children of God through faith. For all of you who are baptized into Christ, I float clothe yourself with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free, neither is there male, male and female. For you are all one. In Christ, Jesus, we could say
Jeff Leake:Republican or Democrat. There's neither American or Nicaraguan. There's neither, right? It's black or white. Yeah, whatever my primary identity we have is with Jesus and His Church, and the primary concern that we have is with what Jesus is doing, not just in this nation, but in every nation on Earth. That the United States is not elevated in importance in God's eyes above any other nation that exists, because it's not central to God's plan. It's actually a part of God's plan. Yeah, no doubt, but, but the church is the primary way that he works in the world. So I think if we get too caught up in the dominance of Christian nationalism too, we start to fight a culture war rather than preach the gospel. We end we end up on with mission drift.
Dave Leake:So what does it mean to be caught up in Christian nationalism, to be fighting in the culture war? So
Jeff Leake:when you're living in fear and anger over the way the world is changing, and you're thinking that the primary way to bring the change that the world needs is by voting for the right person or getting the right people in office, or passing the right legislation, if you think that's the primary way that change brings, I think then you have mission drift, because that is never really the primary way that Jesus teaches us to bring change in the world. Right? His primary way is love and service and preaching the gospel and making disciples. Is it? Am I saying? Don't love your country, don't be patriotic, don't vote, don't want to see the right pilot. Because here's the other side of it. While I'm not interested in Christian dominance, I do think Christianity should be at the table as one of the primary influences in our country. And I think sometimes people, they sort of poopoo Christian nationalism because they want to get rid of Judeo Christian thinking or influence on society. I think we should be at the table having an influence and a voice in everything that's going on, sure, but not thinking that somehow America is the centerpiece of God's plan, or that gaining political power is going to be the answer to the world's problems, because God's heart's broken for lost people all over the world, yeah, and well, and for people who are here in our country as well. So it's, it's like, I guess what I'm saying is, it's important to to have patriotism. It's important to be political for the right reasons. It's important to vote for the right candidates and want to see the right policies implemented. But it's secondary to the Great Commission. So
Dave Leake:here's the thing, here's the thing I've heard, I've heard a lot of people say, and I think, I think this is on, it's, it's not just from the Christian nationalist camp. I think that this is it's there. There are on both the right and the left leaning sides of Christianity. There's this idea that I've heard said, like from major leaders, that a part of the gospel is fill in the blank. Right with this happening on Earth like, well, it is, and
Jeff Leake:it is, it is the king. When the kingdom of God comes, which is God's plan for the world, it brings societal change,
Dave Leake:okay? But I would, I would, I would clarify that the gospel is not social change. No,
Jeff Leake:it social change is a byproduct of the gospel, agreed, but not the, not the I
Dave Leake:think this is part of what's confusing is that it's often talked about by church leaders as if that social justice or American, not America Christian values like being brought forth for the protection of whatever it might be, like things that we are fully pro 100% like, you know, we've talked about the four Tim Keller social issues that we we stand for that? Yeah, right,
Jeff Leake:but those things all come as a result of people being transformed by Jesus and and us being salt and light.
Dave Leake:And so you're saying that the mission drift risk is when those social changes become our primary objective, as opposed to seeing people come to Jesus and seeing the kingdom of God expand and be the being the church making disciples, being full of love and honor and representation of what
Jeff Leake:it looks like, and yet being being salt and light in our lifestyle and our you know, desire to see policies change and and people treated properly, and all of those things. So, yeah, okay. Here's another thought, though there's an I said, I think that sometimes Christian nationalism is more dangerous to Christianity than it is to our political environment. Here's another reason when we say that America is a Christian nation. Yeah, here's what's problematic for that, for Christianity's sake, there's a lot of things that have been done by America that have been been very Christian, sure. And so when you say America is a Christian nation, and then people think, what about slavery?
Dave Leake:Yeah, so the slave trade was a Christian idea, yeah. Well,
Jeff Leake:what about what we did to the Native Americans when we expanded Sure, what about certain moments of American imperialism where we took territory like Puerto Rico or Hawaii or the Philippines? So what about those moments? What about moments when people have been treated unjustly or lynched or sent to prison for the wrong reasons? Is that, what is that? How? What about when we retaliated against Iraq or WMDs
Dave Leake:or what? It wasn't there. There's so much, there's so much. Or we go, we go, you know, legalizing abortion, yeah, was. It was a part of American history. Yeah,
Jeff Leake:right. So, so if it, if we're a Christian nation, and what we do is Christian, then you have dragged all of the bad stuff from America's history, and you've attached it to Christianity's reputation. And I'm not sure. So there are, so there are, there, there's, there's an example of this that when Christian leaders in the United States of America have acted Christian, and their influence that has been felt on society. It's been very positive. But when they have an acted Christian, then it has been very negative. But if you measure Christianity by America, you end up with this really imperfect picture. Let me give an example. One of the one of the people that's on our dollar bill, President in the 1820s, and 30s, was Andrew Jackson. Andrew Jackson was not a Christian. He was our president, but he was not a Christian, and he didn't act Christian. He was an expansionist. He was one of the people that really early started taking territory from the Native American tribes, and some of the most horrible things that were done between Native Americans and and the colonists at the time, or this the country at the time, were done under Jackson's leadership. Okay, he was running against John Quincy Adams, who was our sixth President of the United States. Andrew Jackson was our seventh president. John Quincy Adams was a Christian, and he was a huge voice to end slavery. So this is what John Quincy Adams, I love this story. John Quincy Adams lost the presidency to Andrew Jackson, and when he did, rather than fading from public life, he was still young enough. He ran for Congress. He became a congressman, and every day he would get up in Congress and propose legislation to end slavery, wow. And every day they would vote him down, because there was enough votes to, you know, to not pass that. And he did that year after year and day after day to became an old man. So he's a former president serving in Congress, which is a lower position, every day, proposing a hopeless resolution to end slavery. And they asked John Quincy Adams, why are you doing this? And he said this. He says, duty is mine. Results are God's. I'm here to do my duty. I believe that slavery is an evil on society, and I'm going to keep fighting against this until it ends. Now it didn't end. There had to be a civil war fought to end slavery. But would you say, do we. Want the influence of Christianity on society. Well, you do if you get John Quincy Adams, yeah, right, where you have somebody step so technically, Dr Martin Luther King, he was a pastor. Christian influence, yeah, in society is a good thing when it lines up with with Jesus attitudes, right? So I don't think we want to remove Christian influence from society. I think what we don't want to have is Christian dominance. Yeah, and that, that is almost a fantasy that a lot of people long for. We can go back to the old days where our culture was primarily, if not exclusively, Judeo Christian, and everybody thought the same, and everybody believed the same, and if we could just get the right people in office, and we could dominate the political point of view, if we could own the Supreme Court and the presidency and the Senate and the Congress and every governorship, then we would be in revival, and everyone would come into agreement. We would all follow Jesus, and then God would start to work through America to change the rest of the world. I think that's the myth of Christian nationalism. And I think what we have to do is realize that we are called to be salt and light. Christianity's voice should be a loud voice in society as an influence, but not as a dominance.
Dave Leake:I think my my problem that feels it's a weird line to walk. I understand why it's important to have a major influence as Christians on what's happening in terms of our politics, legislation and things, but I think there has been such a shift towards everything, every issue, that there is moral, social, personal, becoming a political issue. Like everything is political. It's hard to be in and around politics without becoming consumed by them. Yeah, you know. And I think, I think as Christians, our primary, our primary command, is not to be as concerned with the economy or our laws or whatever it might be, as we are with the expansion of bringing Jesus glory, not just like being a Christian, but of people hearing about Jesus, about, you know, ministering to the poor, about about doing the things the work of Jesus, of the kingdom. And it feels like man, it's hard to wade into that world and not get sucked in, you know what I mean, to the tides? Yeah,
Jeff Leake:and because everything is political, there's an agenda to diminish the value and influence of great Christian leaders like John Quincy Adams on this country, where we don't tell the stories anymore of Clara Barton who started the Red Cross, or these various Christian leaders who started the first hospitals or universities, who were started out of Christian influence. Christian influence, on on, on the world, has been a hugely positive thing, but the idea of Christendom, or Christian dominance is actually been a very harmful thing. It when it is applied in such a way that crushes people. And so, by the way, I think we should add one more governance structure into the mix, because we talked about the Christian side. But let's talk about the Christian nationalist side. Let's talk about nationalism that is also a bad word, this idea that nations should have borders and have an identity and a national anthem. And the alternative to nationalism is globalism, which is which is, again, oftentimes not thought. So you will hear the left side say these nationalists, and almost with a disdain, and you'll hear the right side say these globalists. Right both sides are afraid of a small group of people dictating the way that we have to live. And globalism isn't actually a better system than nationalism, it's just different. And so a lot of times on the left, you have people who want more of a global view of the world and a global society and a global governance. And a nationalist wants a local nation and a local society and a local governance. Hopefully everybody still gets along together, but there's sort of a disdain for both the Christian and the nationalism side of things, without really thinking of the implications of what we're actually looking for, which is whatever governance structure we end up with is going to be imperfect, yeah, and almost always, when it comes to systems and power, you Have people who act in their own self interest, and many times you have a few people making decisions and and, and you end up in a place where the little guy gets left behind in whatever governance structure that exists, Marxism, fascism, nationalism, globalism, Sharia law, like whoever, whatever happens to be, there is no perfect political governance structure, monarchy. Everything's gonna have a downside to it, and and there are sinful people running it, and
Dave Leake:so you're saying, and our hope should be placed. And well, we have
Jeff Leake:to realize that when we start to get too much disdain over any particular political system. System that, unless we have an alternative to propose, we're wasting a lot of our energy being mad at something that, in and of itself, is just stained with sin and selfishness, because the powers, power structures of this world are oftentimes very self serving and aren't built in a just way, and aren't going to produce the results that we're looking for our allegiance is the kingdom of God and to the person of Jesus Christ, and I think we have to keep ourselves focused in that direction. Yeah, I don't know if that's that helps anybody. We hopefully we just maybe we pulled apart an animal called Christian nationalism, like we were scientists, and dissected it and we pulled it and examined it in its positives and negatives. Maybe that's a value, because people throw the term around in such frivolous ways that they really aren't thinking deeply about what the implications are and why it's good and bad and what the upside and downside is of this particular kind.
Dave Leake:I think in general, the overriding thing is our allegiance can't be primarily to anything else except for Jesus. And if our hope and our of all of our eggs are in the basket, or half of our eggs are in the basket of something besides Jesus and the Gospel, I think we're gonna be disappointed.
Jeff Leake:And I think it's bad for Christianity to call American a Christian nation? Yeah, because it, it brings too much baggage. Yeah. I think it's a highly so, so many heroes who are Christians, who are part of the founding and execution of leadership in this country. But we, we can't call ourselves a Christian nation, because there really, there really isn't anything like that in the New Testament. So I think that's also important. I think it would be good day for us to come back and do an episode on Marxism, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the prevailing view of the left is a Marxist view, sure. Just like the prevailing view on the right is a nationalist view, sure. So it'd be good to come back and talk about, okay, why are we not Marxists? Yeah, and because
Dave Leake:we're, you're saying we're not Christian nationalists, but we, we, you would say we're not Marxist either,
Jeff Leake:right? We are Christians who want to be salt and light in a in a country that has historically had a lot of Christian influence. That's good, all right? Well, we're out of time now, but we want to say, by the way, if I ruin that song for you, if you love you know, I'll just tell you. So that particular song was a big is a big song for Allison Park church, because my boss, who you know, Ron Bailey, who started this church, that was his favorite. He loved that song. I think that was the last song he sang with the couriers. Yeah, so I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Enjoying that song. Can I just tell you I still love that song, but as I sing it and dissect it, I have concerns with the side by side. Nature of the cross, sure, and the flag, I think there is the need to differentiate a little bit. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with a good patriotic song. Okay,
Dave Leake:you got places to be, so we gotta, we gotta close this down. But I just felt like that little disagreement. All right, all right. Some
Jeff Leake:people are going to be like, I can't believe you did that to this.
Dave Leake:Yeah, probably people in their 30s or 20s,
Jeff Leake:all right. Well, hey, what careers are listening? Man, was that a powerful performance? Yeah, yeah. I
Dave Leake:loved your YouTube video. But hey, we just want to say, thanks for joining us again. Thanks for being a part of this. As always, we would love to ask if you could help us out, like and subscribe on YouTube, give us a five star review. Anything that you can do to help to spread the word is really, really valuable, because we're a small podcast, but we want to help as many people as possible, and you can be a part of that. So anyway, that you can help to spread the word and promote it would be so helpful to us. So anyway, hope you enjoyed today in this episode, and we'll see you guys again next time you.