Saving Orangutans and Rainforests: Leif Cocks’ Holistic Conservation Approach

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**Protecting Orangutans: A Conversation with Leif Cocks**

In this episode of the World Vegan Travel Podcast, Brighde sits down with Leif Cocks, a dedicated wildlife conservationist and founder of The Orangutan Project. With over 30 years of experience working with orangutans, Leif shares his journey and the vital work his organization does to save these incredible animals from extinction.

Leif talks about the challenges facing orangutans today and the broader issues affecting their habitats. He explains why it's not just about palm oil but about protecting entire ecosystems and taking collective action to make a real difference. Leif also discusses The Orangutan Project’s unique approach to conservation, including creating safe spaces for orangutans and other wildlife.

We also dive into the eco-tours offered by The Orangutan Project in partnership with Orangutan Odysseys. These vegan-friendly tours give travelers the chance to see orangutans in the wild and learn firsthand about the conservation efforts happening on the ground. Leif highlights how these tours not only support conservation work but also create lasting connections among participants.

Leif also touches on some of his other conservation projects and his books that reflect on the relationship between humans and nature. If you're interested in wildlife conservation or want to learn how you can help protect orangutans, this episode is a must-listen. Join us as we explore the inspiring work of Leif Cocks and The Orangutan Project!

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Transcript

Brighde: [00:00:00] Welcome Leif, to the World Vegan Travel Podcast. 

Leif: Oh, it's great to be here, thank you.  

Brighde: I'm so thrilled to have you on the podcast and we're going to be taking a audio trip to Indonesia today and you're going to be talking about species of animals and also ways that travelers can interact or observe these animals and that is orangutans which is very exciting. So Leif, why don't you tell us a little bit about what it is that you do in this space?  

Leif: I'm a wildlife conservationist but my main expertise or experience over the last 30 years has been with orangutans. So that is the center of our conservation work, but not the boundary of it. We extend conservation work to all the megafauna, biodiversity, indigenous communities in the ecosystems we're working in.  

Brighde: That's amazing. You have created an [00:01:00] NGO called the Orangutan Project. Can you tell us a little bit about that? 

 that  

Leif: The Orangutan Project is set up to save the critically endangered orangutan species, and there's three of them, before it's too late. And so critically endangered means they're very prone to extinction in the immediate future. But it's always meant to be the umbrella, for holistic conservation work about all the other species and biodiversity. 

 So we've been working with many wonderful partners, in Indonesia and Malaysia, forming foundations and companies to affect meaningful change. Our big picture strategy is to save complete ecosystems of the right type shape and size of rainforests to take the Orangutans and all the other biodiversity through this extinction crisis. 

Brighde: That's a huge job. Props to you and all of your team for taking on this monumental task. I am sure it is not always easy at all. So tell [00:02:00] me how is it that you got into working with in Orangutan conversation because you're Australian, you're not from Indonesia or Malaysian Borneo.  

Leif: Yeah, I'm Australian. I was actually brought up in Southeast Asia, so culturally probably not necessarily your typical Australian. But I was working with 15 orangutans here and discovered that they're self aware persons and don't belong captivity. Also quickly discovered that they'd been slaughtered to extinction and it bothered when I started working with orangutans until now more than 100, 000 have been murdered and killed as their rainforest home has been destroyed. So, I started my journey to help save them in the wild, also to bring the orangutans that were in captivity back to the wild.  

Brighde: So, what made you start this organization? Because on one hand, maybe you could have got a job with an organization doing work in this [00:03:00] area, but you decided to set up the orangutan project. How did that come to be? 

Leif: It's a very good question because I often actually discourage people starting up their own organization, etc. Because what you want to do is focus on the outcome and the process. There's only one valid reason to set up your own organization, is there a gap? That is needed to be filled, that can't be filled by supporting existing organizations and people? 

So, yes, there was this huge gap that we needed to fill. But that said, is how we approach our conservation work, is we connect with many other organizations and people, to most cost effectively make that meaningful change. So the Orangutan project is really just a necessary evil to fill in the gaps for fundraising and conservation work that our wonderful partners could not do on their [00:04:00] own. 

Brighde: Yeah, I'm not surprised that you say that about not wanting to create just organizations willy nilly. First of all, they're really hard to set up. They're kind of like a business in that sense. And then, why not collaborate or work with organizations that are already doing this work? You set up the Orangutan Project. When was that?  

Leif: 1998.  

Brighde: Oh, okay, so you've been going a while now.  

Leif: I was working with orangutans; well, before that, and even when I could, going in and rescuing orangutans, and other, and doing my master's research on the welfare of orangutans, et cetera, and behaviors. So my work started well before that. 

But it was only in 1998 that they were the obvious pressing need to start the organization to be able to affect the meaningful change of saving orangutans and the welfare that we required.  

Brighde: Something I would love to ask you as an expert in orangutan [00:05:00] conservation, a little bit more of an in depth explanation of what the challenges are that are facing orangutans, because we often think, oh, palm oil. I don't know, this is just my wondering, like palm oil, that's the reason. But I wonder whether it's maybe a little bit, more nuanced and a little bit more complicated than that. Would you be able to tell me that I'm right or explain why I'm wrong? 

Leif: Well, actually it's a fantastic question and the answer to your question is actually in your question itself, which was very intelligently applied, because most people would look at and go, okay, there's rainforests and replaced by palm oil. So, if I go sustainable palm oil, well what does that mean? It doesn't mean anything because all monocultures are unsustainable by their very nature and destroy the environment for the grown. So sustainable palm oil is, yes, that's not true. Well we go palm oil free, and of course it affects no meaningful change because the true driver is that rainforest is given away to big multinationals and they destroy the [00:06:00] trees for the value of the trees and they'll plant whatever unsustainable monoculture makes them the best outcome or put or dig it up for coal and so you can ban all the palm oil in the world tomorrow it won't save one tree and by extension won't save one orangutan. So it's very important that we intelligently apply our knowledge. Many great people spend their lifetime on issues, which don't affect meaningful change in the world, because they don't understand the true drivers of let's say deforestation and orangutan destruction in this case. 

The second important issue is, people when they go palm oil free, as an example, are under the misdirection, that we as individuals can make meaningful change. And it's not true. It's never been true. We can only make meaningful change by collectivizing our capital or labor together. 

I'm not saying for integrity of our own individual existence, we won't make those changes in our life, but it will not change the world. The only way we can change the [00:07:00] world is uniting, collectivizing with others, either in our capital or labor to make that meaningful change. The Orangutan Project, this just provides one opportunity for people to collectivize, in order to make a meaningful change in the world, which they wish to make. 

Brighde: I really love this concept of, collectively coming together. I'm wondering whether government policy plays a part in that as well? 

Leif: Government policy obviously played a critical part but in Indonesia, Malaysia, and not dissimilar about in other Western democracies, we've somewhat lost our democracy to big business interests. So it's a nature of duopoly democracies that we tend to exist in is, they tend to favor their funders over their voters, because if you've got your funders, you'll get your voters. We see all over the world that governments do not, by and large make, decisions in the interest of the people. This has been declared by several studies, [00:08:00] including Princeton University, that for example, America is no longer a functioning democracy. Because there's no correlation between the desires of the people and the decisions of government, but there's a strong correlation between the desires of big business and the decisions of government. 

So Indonesia is the same case. We have to deal with an environment where we as people in a democracy have less and less power. That doesn't mean we can't achieve meaningful outcomes and make the change. But we cannot rely on governments to do it because unfortunately our governments are not representing us in the way that we would hope in a modern democracy.  

Brighde: Could you share some of the ways that we might be able to preserve the habitat for orangutans and for other species in an approach that aligns with what you say would work?  

Leif: The first thing is that, we just can't save rainforest and we can't just say primary forest or whatnot. We have to save rainforest in a right type, shape and size. Now I'll just [00:09:00] quickly explain that. For example, size, rainforest creates its own weather patterns, rainfall, reduces temperature. So if you're just saving small patches of rainforest, those rainforests are unsustainable and will collapse over time. For example, a lot of scientists are thinking that the Amazon is now collapsing back to a savannah because it's not on Amazon to support the Amazon. So just saving small patches of rainforest doesn't work. 

The other aspect to it is you need large enough ecosystems to support the biodiversity in the numbers required for biodiversity to maintain and also you have age effects. So, up to a kilometre within the edge of your rainforest, you have 80 percent less biodiversity, because of the edge effects from it. So you need large, almost circular forests.  

The second aspect is with type, they tend to conserve rainforests in this example, and you can talk about the same thing National park in western nations. Okay, we'll put it in the hills to help with water catchment for our cities and [00:10:00] no one wants to put a farm or a palm oil plantation on it, so win win. But unfortunately all the nutrients flow downhill, all the biodiversity, the orangutans, elephants and tigers and indigenous communities must and can only live and survive long term in the lowland forests and orangutans in particular need the riverine forests. So by just conserving the national parks and conservation areas, those areas will collapse eventually but all the orangutans, tigers and elephants and indigenous communities will go extinct because they pretty much all live outside of protected areas in previously logged forests because the highlands is not suitable for them. 

So the first thing is we have to intelligently put together. Functioning ecosystem is the right type of shape and size in rainforests, rather than just saying we're going to save trees or save the rainforest.The next problem is because our mind always wants simple solutions for complex problems. That's why you [00:11:00] always get these slogans, elections, like stop the boats or build the walls. People love that. But I always say, for every complex problem in the world, there's a simple solution which is absolutely wrong.  

So what we have to do is diagnose the disease of each ecosystem. And it's not about planting trees or community development or habitat protection or ranges, it's about looking what is the disease that rain for us and apply the solutions in the right dosage and intelligently apply the medicine to cure the disease and so that's what we do and then of course as we're flipping back to a previous question is why replicate things? Let's find the key resources and partnerships and knowledge which already exist and support and work with them and fill in the gaps to effectively save these last viable ecosystems and we only got the next decade to do this. 

Because after this, yes, there'll be rainforest, but the rainforest will be too small and fragmented to survive and [00:12:00] collapse. Yes, there'll be orangutans, tigers, and elephants, but their populations will be too small, fragmented, and then collapse. So we're living in the most important, decade in human history, both from a global perspective, but also the local perspective in saving the last beautiful megafauna to save our planet. So, unfortunately, no time to rest. 

Brighde: No, no, that's quite dire prospect that you've said there. I'm wondering whether rewilding can play any role in the work that you're doing at all. I'm thinking, for example, if you had two small pieces of rainforests. Would there be a way that you could rewild life to make a corridor between them that might, get you towards the goal? A little bit closer, at least. 

Leif: One of those corridors have some value but limited because it tends to be very narrow contains very low biodiversity and some unsustainable because the age effects of it. So what we want to do is just build complete functioning [00:13:00] ecosystems, and if that's uniting two bits of land, and in the broader prospect as possible, that's great. It's actually a great question, because our goal is to save these viable ecosystems before too late. 

However in order to stabilize our planet, particularly in the tropical areas, we have to rewild about 25 percent of the planet, as well as going vegan and going carbon neutral and all these other things. All these things have to happen, at least we will offer the biodiversity and the resources to allow that rewilding to occur, as well as the economic models we're developing under the Rainforest Council with Indigenous communities to make those economically viable. 

Because, remember, the vast majority of Indonesia is under pulp paper and palm oil, unsustainable monocultures, which will collapse in 50, 60 years time. It's not like these things will continue in their monocultures to supply income. So without rewilding, we're not necessarily going to save the environment, but we're also not going to be able to save the [00:14:00] economies of the countries that hold the rainforest. 

Brighde: Interesting. I don't know whether I mentioned to you Leif, when we had our little call a few weeks ago now to get ready for this podcast, but I used to live in Jakarta for a couple of years. And I used to work for an international school, which was quite good. Maybe I mentioned this, but it was owned by APP.  

Leif: Asian pulp and paper. They're owned by Cinemass, which is one of the biggest Chinese Indonesian affiliates. They literally has Pulped half of the Indonesian Sumatran rainforest as well as other places. So huge massive destruction as well as human rights abuses.  

Brighde: Yeah, I didn't have any idea, until I started working for them and Sonamus was actually in the name of the school as well. 

Leif: Yeah, well, that's one of the things is, they're kind of, a mafia owned business and by the time you're at the little store which is owned by the mafia, you've got this really nice guy who's really polite and shares all your [00:15:00] values, helping you out, but behind it there's the destruction and human rights abuses and that sort of stuff. So it's very hard for people to make really good decisions. 

We have this cognitive dissonance when it comes to our self interest. The people working for these big companies at the face end, running the banks and the schools, they don't know or want to know, what's really behind their organization. That's not because they're horrible people. That's just how human beings are, which makes it very difficult for us to make ethical decisions. 

Brighde: Yeah, that was a very interesting time for me working with that school. I've got some stories that I will not share publicly on the podcast, but my goodness, there were some funny things. Anyway, some work that you've done that I think is really interesting, is the reintroduction of zoo born orangutans into the wild.  

Leif: Hhmm  

Brighde: Tell us about that because I know as vegans we're often really skeptical and we don't like zoos. [00:16:00] So, it's very interesting to hear a kind of a zoo success story. Can you share that with us?  

Leif: One of the things to understand that orangutans and the other great apes and animals such as elephants, can never live in zoos properly, because they're self aware persons, with anxieties about the past and worries about the future. Just as human beings don't do well in captivity, despite great care. So for example, we know the long term psychological damage people in refugee camps, despite the most gracious, loving people who are working in refugee camps to help people. Even though you could be the most loving, caring zookeeper, right? There's certain animals we cannot adequately be cared for because of their personhood and intelligence and needs. Orangutans are certainly one of them. 

So I had a unique opportunity, working and supporting conservation in the wild, doing my research and my masters, part time and then working with orangutans. [00:17:00] So it was a unique opportunity to bring those two things together to help get as many orangutans I could, back to living free in the wild. The last aspect, which was very important, when I started working with orangutans, I was given no training, back in the old days before occupational health and safety and I was the only one at the zoo that had a university degree, including all the management. 

 So they basically just handed me the diet sheets and said, here's some 15 orangutans. No one told me that they were dangerous and they didn't look dangerous. So I just went in and had my lunch with them and became friends and when they had the babies, I was with them. Well, I play with the babies and give them back to the mum and wrestle the young male orangutans, which is really cool when you're a young man, to have that kind of rough and tough play. 

It was only later that I discovered people thought orangutans were dangerous and kept them behind bars and had this standoff distance. I had a very good personal relationship with orangutans, which made them very happy. Because imagine if your jailer was [00:18:00] some distant person, or your friend that would go in with you and take care of you. It makes a big difference to your captivity. But this also allowed me to be able to take them on their journey back. Because once we got them back into the rainforest, they didn't just run off in fear, they would stay with me. Myself and my staff and the Indonesian technicians could take them on a slow journey to, build up their skills and return to the wild. So that was all part of the journey.  

Of course, the first step is, we can't return orangutans in the wild when they're being murdered. It is a mass genocide of orangutans. So it's protecting the ecosystems, but where I could is to start bringing back the orangutans I was working with, so they can live in freedom and dignity. The second aspect is I'm actually developing right now in two locations, rainforest sanctuaries for orangutans. So they can live in the rainforest but be supported. These are the ones that can't live in the wild because of physical or mental [00:19:00] problems and so they can live in the rainforest but be supported and their offspring can then go back to the wild. 

 Up until now we've never had this option because it's either been okay you can go back to the wild , if you can't survive, well, you either die or we have to put you in a zoo or zoo like situation. We never had this option before. So I'm hoping to develop the option of sanctuary. So they don't have that binary decision of captivity and in wild. This becomes extremely important, not only for the welfare of orangutans but with the crudely endangered species, not losing the genes are required for survival of the species. 

Because all zoo populations that make a fauna are unsustainable, so zoos can't save themselves, neither can they save anything in the wild. So the idea of this arc of orangutans or elephants that's going to somehow support conservation is not true. It may be difficult to save them in the wild, but impossible in captivity. By having many of Orangutans in the wild and then in sanctuaries and allow them to [00:20:00] breed, is going to be a critical part of saving these critically endangered species. 

Brighde: Wow, that's amazing and that leads me on to asking about your eco tours. and the opportunity that people can have to travel with you and to learn and see for themselves the work that you're doing. Can you tell us a little bit about your eco tours? 

Leif: Well, with our tour partner, Orangutan Odysseys, we do echo tours into the wild. I used to do them all, but now I'm getting a bit busy, so I'm doing two a year and my project manager, Kylie who was instrumental in taking the first two orangutans back to the wild, it's going to take one a year. My orangutan program manager in the field, Hardy, who's a fantastic photographer, it's going to take one a year and, you know, with a very much photography focus, all of us have over 30 years experience each in orangutan conservation. So there's now three options. So what I [00:21:00] do is I take people to see orangutans, the rainforest, and other species. What I also do, I do talks at night, so I talk about orangutans and conservation, and take fireside chats and take people through the journey. 

But one of the important things which is connected to your podcast is, I stipulate that the food must be vegan and support that because I think that's one of the critical ethical frameworks that we as individuals should hold. Also I'm a firm believer that conservation and goodness is a two way street. It helps the world, but also helps yourself, by ethical decision making and expressing intelligently selfless love to others, we become happy and healthy within ourselves. Our diet, as well as other things is an important part of that. So I hope by introducing people to a vegan diet, one of the things they come back, Well, this food's fantastic. I thought I was going to be really suffering, not eating meat for 10 days. And they go, Well, I had a really good [00:22:00] meals, I had a good time. Because it's forced in that sense because they're kind of trapped on the tour for 10 days, they overcome that barrier, it doesn't make sense, that cultural barrier that sinks somehow by not eating meat, they're going to be affected physically or be deprived in some way. 

So I think it's an important step in the process, because what I'd always hoped to do, and I think I've achieved this in many cases, is not only we raise funds for rent and conservation for the tourists, but we make people who have been on the tourists happy and healthier. The test on this is, I have many people who've come back two or three times. 

My last tour, I just came back last week. I had three people. It is their second tour this year. So they go back and they book for the next one to come on, which is a great sign that people are themselves getting something really great out of it. The last aspect to it is, we've evolved as hunter gatherers, in the natural environment, such as the rainforest. That's our home. [00:23:00] And the agricultural industrial revolutions are insignificant in time period to make a effect on our genes and in many ways our behaviors. So coming back to the rainforest is like coming home and people then feel this connection and oneness doesn't make sense and see a beauty that they're not really understanding in a normal industrial lives and that, makes them happier and more connected with the world. 

 Hopefully, we have a lifelong convert to believe that selflessly working for the good of other living beings is a great way to spend your life and saving the rainforest is probably the lowest hanging fruit, in order for us to do that.  

Brighde: Amazing. So, I've spent a little bit of time in the rainforest and well, you've already said it's this very special environment, but it's also quite physically challenging as well. So I imagine, that maybe, this kind of tour might not be suitable for everybody, like what's the accommodation like, is it physically [00:24:00] demanding, what could they expect in that area? 

Leif: Yeah, Great question. I'm nursing several injuries from rainforest adventures myself as we speak. I am actually transiting to Central Kalimantan, and to Sabah, are what I call my soft tours and so we're doing a rainforest experience, but I'm still having that level. Kylie and Hydi are gonna do the more hardcore ones. They've got a couple of decades on me as far as being youth. So people have a range. So if you really want that adventure, Orangutan Odysseys, through our tours and their own individual tours can offer you that but we can do the more softer tours as well. So there's something for everybody.  

Brighde: I'm imagining that the orangutans are in a quite a remote location. So how do travelers get to wherever it is, the start of the trek, or the trail, or the road where the orangutans are? Because there aren't that many airports and it is a huge [00:25:00] country. So tell us about that. 

Leif: Yeah, often it will involve obviously flying into a small airport and then we have the transport. The best way to travel is by the rivers. There's no insects, it's cool, and a lot of wildlife, especially orangutans, accumulate by the rivers. I love the rivers, I always say, if we can get us on the river, get on the river quickly, because it's cool, nice, and see a lot of wildlife, and that's the best way to see. 

The other aspect to it is, I just came back from Sumatra, there came across two young Australians who'd been out in the rainforest there for three days and saw no orangutans, and my group has seen ten, and we haven't got to the morning. So the lesson is, you gotta go with somebody who knows what they're doing. Because if you know what you're doing, have experience like we do, and our partners at Orangutan Odysseys, you've got a lot more chance of seeing wildlife. If you're just there with maybe the local guy who's just going to take you out in the forest and doesn't understand animals and their behavior, you could miss out. So, it's [00:26:00] choosing a really good tour provider is one of the key aspects to get the best experience possible.  

Brighde: Yes, as far as I know, you guys are the only ones that are doing sort of these multi day trips that are run by people that are really genuinely interested in orangutan conservation, and includes a big donation to your organization too, is that right? 

Leif: It does, that's why I do it, for the donations and hopefully engage people to become donors. But one of the aspects to it is, if you're coming with myself or one of my staff, we have access to the people and the conservation programs. They're not open to the public. We go and see them because we're partners with them. So people have the inside experience of meeting the real people, the heroes on the cold face of conservation and all their knowledge and experience. If you just do a normal tour, you have to go to the tourist locations, which are usually pretty dodgy. They pretend to do conservation and that sort of stuff, but probably actually worse than not doing anything at all. [00:27:00] The value is, because who we are and the fact that you're donating to conservation is you get access to places and people that are not normally available. 

Brighde: Absolutely. There's not only that, but there's also power in numbers as well. If you can get a bigger group of people to come together with a bigger donation, then that opens the doors to these things.  

Leif: Exactly, because I need a certain amount of money to make it worthwhile my time. Cause you know, I've got to earn a lot of money to keep these projects going. So it has to be cost effective, but also if we have a group of 10, that also can reduce costs, with transport and food and that sort of stuff. But the other aspect to it is, so many people have been on these tours and they have got lifelong friends, that they've gained through these tours because you bring people with similar values, and it's a wonderful place to meet people and, form friendships that last a lifetime.  

Brighde: Amazing. Leif, I want to thank you so much for coming on the podcast, and getting up [00:28:00] early in Australia. I really, really appreciate it. These are always my favorite episodes to record where we're learning about animals in destinations that we can visit and experience. So, thank you so much again. Would you please tell us how people can connect with you personally? Also, some of your books perhaps, we didn't even touch on the fact that you have some books. As well as the URLs for your organization. 

Leif: Yeah, if you go to theorangutanproject all one word dot org, you can help save for us, adopt the orangutan, donate, and become part of the cause to help save these beautiful animals. I also run three other projects, International Tiger Project, International Elephant Project and Frost for People, which we work with indigenous communities. And so all those combined together is part of a holistic plan to save the rainforest and the biodiversity. Yeah, I'm writing my fourth book now, but my last two are [00:29:00] still available. You can buy off the website. Orangutans. My Cousins, My Friends, and Finding Our Humanity, and they're both autobiographical and also very philosophical about the future and people. People often very much enjoy the books, it's almost like ways of self help books, as well as obviously be teaching us about our most intelligent being that shares our planet, orangutans.  

Now the other thing, from the website, you can connect with our partner Orangutan Odysseys to come on my Eco Tours. Of course, if you're not available for my Eco Tours, Gary, lives in Indonesia with a wonderful team and can supply you any unique or personalized tour to see orangutans and other wildlife. But of course, I'd love to see you on one of my tours. and take you on this journey of saving the rainforest, saving orangutans but also making a better quality life for our own selves.  

Brighde: Thank you, Leigh, for coming on the show. 

Leif: You're welcome. Thank you, Brighde.