Episode 1: The Reality of Gender Mainstreaming in Logistics and Supply Chain Management

Podcast Series: Gender Mainstreaming, Episode 1

Sudipa Sarker, Lecturer in Logistics and Supply Chain Management and Programme Lead for MSc Global Logistics and Supply Chain Analytics interviews Jacqui Paterson.

Jacqui Patterson is the founding director of JP Executive Search. Jacqui has over 20 years of recruitment experience, 12 of which are in the logistics and supply chain management sector. 

Transcript

[00:00:00] [00:01:00] 

thank you for tuning into this podcast series on gender mainstreaming. We are recording five podcasts and today marks the first episode of this series. In this episode, we will explore the reality of gender mainstreaming in the logistics sector, setting the tone for why we are looking into this topic.

Our guest today is Jackie Patterson. The founding director of JP Executive Search. Jackie has over 20 years of recruitment [00:02:00] experience, 12 of which are in the logistics and supply chain management sector. Jackie, thank you for joining us today. We appreciate you taking the time to share your insights and experiences with our listeners.

First, can you talk about the male female ratio in the logistics industry? Is it balanced? Thanks, Deepa. Thanks for having me on as well. So um, no, it's not balanced at all. It is very, very male dominated. It's very, very difficult to find females who want to work in the sector. To start for a starting point but the existing foundation of what actually exists within the sector is, is incredibly male dominant.

I mean, we're looking sort of 80 percent plus will be males.

that doesn't really include kind of, I suppose, the more sort of senior positions, that would be a broad, spectrum of roles.

So why do you think the sector is so imbalanced? I think that there are a number of reasons for that obviously it could be quite intimidating and off putting because it is [00:03:00] such a male dominated environment and it has been for, you know, really since, you know, any sort of memories of the sector were available to any females potentially considering it as a career um, working hours are pretty inflexible for, say, females who have childcare, I mean, if you're looking at warehouse roles or You know, even if you're out at sea or freight or any of these types positions they run hours that are, you know, perhaps into the night, or there's, you know, it's quite an inflexible working environment and not easy to work around.

Also that there's not a huge awareness, I think, of the types of positions within the sector that females could potentially apply for. So Men have traditionally probably fallen into these roles over the course of a number of years. In terms of education or promotion of these types of roles, there's very little being done in schools to obviously promote these types of positions.

Um, So I would say there isn't enough grassroots efforts, you know, making it attractive to females. And then you've got to cover things like safety as well. So I think there you [00:04:00] know, that actually for female cadets, there are certain rules of, of no females at sea. So if you were looking at sort of logistic rules with that, you know, at sea, you will find very, very few females and part of that is because, you know, having looked into that, it was because males didn't want to be taken for harassment charges or, or things like that that can happen, you know, while this is a very, very gritty environment and basically females are very discriminated within, those types of rules.

So. what opportunities are available for women in the sector?

So there, there are opportunities that, you know, males and females would apply for like for like the opportunities will get advertised that you won't see no females apply for this. It's just that females will not apply for some of these types of roles for some of the reasons we've discussed.

But The other side of it is that a lot of the roles that you'll find a female in will be office based, you know, some of the supply chain roles like head [00:05:00] of supply chain, head of logistics where yes, they might be traveling around and fairly mobile in some of those roles, but they might not necessarily be on the shop floor.

And, and the blue collar types of roles like production, warehousing, those types of roles. You will probably find a sort of significantly less uptake in females applying to those types positions. So yes, they're available for them to apply to, but they won't necessarily apply. And that would be related to the reasons we've sort of discussed previously.

So what skills are crucial for women to enter and succeed in the sector? there's a, there's a number of different skills that they have naturally. I mean, I think it's, it's quite well known that Stakeholder management, having good interpersonal skills, being able to speak to people varying different levels, being able to manage difficult situations.

All of these things actually, you know, these softer skills you tend to find that females are very, very good at. And also looking at their, you know, the academic track records required depending on the position they may apply for, you know, a good [00:06:00] level of numeracy being able to sort of untangle Certain problems and issues I guess, you know, but being probably, I mean, you would look at your core subjects somebody that would be Yeah, definitely be studying your English and, and maths and you know, obviously with logistics, you, you, a language skill is gonna be beneficial as well. Could be dealing with all sorts of movement of you know, goods and services across multiple different countries.

So, although an academic track, a strong academic track record is not necessarily always the be all and end all you know, because there's a heavy weighting on the interpersonal and the stakeholder management skills, which are kind of innately developed. They have every, every right and every bit of ability to, to be able to apply for these roles as any male who goes forward for the roles and successful.

Can you discuss the salary range in the logistic sector compared to other sectors?

Depending on the size of the company, to be honest logistic sector is pretty large. Relatively well paid. If you compare it to the public sector, it's considerably better paid. [00:07:00] Some of the roles can be quite stressful. And obviously will require and some of those positions, you know, extensive travel or you know, just probably a lot of plate spinning.

And I, and I think the salaries will reflect that. The nature of responsibility that the person will be carrying out within that role. So if you were to take, if we maybe need to take some positions to give an example. So if you're looking at a director of logistics with a sort of blue chip or a larger company, I mean, you could be looking at 120 to 130 K.

Maybe possibly more. And I would say that would maybe be more of the Scottish marketplace. You'll get far more down South and London, you know, you add London waiting to that. If you're looking at a head of supply chain within a medium size business, you might be looking at sort of 55 to 75 K. If you're looking at a sort of entry level role if you're coming out of university and maybe you're going for a supply or a planning role, or uh, at a procurement role or.

I guess, you know, there's a supply chain [00:08:00] analyst, probably a sort of entry level, about 30, 35K ideally with maybe some student intern experience to match that to, to be able to position that properly. again, you know, you're probably looking at some of the bigger companies because then you'll get the better benefits, you know, healthcare.

all of these types of kind of rewards will go with some of the opportunities hand in hand. But, you know, the sector is pretty well paid. It's up there with accountancy. you can earn more than a lawyer and the right position. So that is a really, really good sector to be involved in.

it's just obviously, I think it's. Really not well communicated what types of opportunities there are available for people who are perhaps studying degrees that are related and what types of positions they can apply for. There's such a huge range it's the world of supply chain you could go on forever with the types of roles but yeah.

Why should companies want to be gender balanced? I think, you know, why wouldn't they want to be gender balanced? I mean, I think that it's really, really important to have two sides of the coin being represented in [00:09:00] businesses. You know, decisions and decision making that could be wrong or unquestioned are seen through one set of eyes.

how can you ever evolve if you don't have other people's input or a different point of view? we are two different species after all. So, you know, everybody's opinions and everybody's ability and level of contribution is far more successful than, you know, just going down one path.

You know, it's all male dominated. You'll always get the same output. You'll always get the same results and you'll, you know, you'll never change what's happening. You mix that up with some, Just as resilient, just as able bodied females, you know, you've got the best of everything, really think I'd be struggling to understand why you wouldn't want a balance in the workplace.

What advice would you give to companies in the sector on how to attract more women in the workforce? I think businesses need to look, first of all, you know, some of the businesses that are doing it well if they're, they're struggling to, to think of ideas or, you know, they don't understand why they're not getting a good footfall of females coming [00:10:00] through an application process.

And it goes down to things like even at the start of the job description, the wording that's used When you know, for instance, a working mom, a non working mom, doesn't really matter, you know, looks at job advert, they want to see things that are attractive, that offer career progression if they want it.

Or, if they're not wanting career progression and they're happy in that particular position, they're not going to be ostracized for not wanting to climb a career ladder because they're putting their family first. They want to see part time opportunities, Perhaps you can work a 9 day fortnight, but you can do your 40 hours in that 9 day fortnight.

They want to see a level of flexibility and a level of understanding. I think to the working world of a female. It's completely different to a male so. You know, and then we would want to address safety issues as well. They need to have clarity, and again that goes down to the application process as well, that they will be safe if they're out on site, that, as we discussed this as well, that things will fit them, that, you know, that they're not going to actually be [00:11:00] faced with coming into a man's world and things are not adapted.

You know, it's an even playing field. It's not a man's world, it's everybody's world. So But as I say, it goes down to the job description. It goes down to educating at school level, making these opportunities look attractive. But companies do need to do quite a bit more. They need to really be selling their business, talking about flexible opportunities and talking about Transcribed by https: otter.

The company's culture and support and how we've moved on from some of these sort of dark ages types of opinions that people might have of logistics industry if they're coming from a female perspective.

So do you want to mention any companies that are doing particularly well in promoting gender equality in the sector? Yeah, I mean, I could mention a couple of companies. I mean, I think we're still, you see, we're still very, very behind in the times with this but some of the companies that I've worked for that have, you know, I feel that are, you know, on the ball with things definitely have to be, we've spoken about this before, but it's definitely food and drink industry companies like [00:12:00] Diageo, They are hugely supportive of all of their workforce. I feel that they're doing really, really good things. And the world of supply chain, their adverts are great. They're inclusive. they have a policy where, you know, actually they want to see more females on the board. They want to see more females in, you know, seriously.

Good decision making processes because they know that's good for business. Edgington group. Absolutely. Same ag bar. Absolutely. Same as well. I mean, most of the people I speak to in these businesses when I'm, you know, looking to hire for them. I'll be looking at a panel of at least serve 2 females and 2 males.

and that that's a great opportunity for a lady coming into that process in the first instance. She's not looking at five or six middle aged men who are making a decision and whether she gets that job opportunity or not. She's coming into that process and seeing people who are.

Already successful in that organization, representing what that could look like for her. And I think they're doing, they're doing super late, you know, super job of that. And, you know, they're all big [00:13:00] businesses. But then, you know, you can take the family run business. Malcolm logistics as well. You know that they've got a really diverse workforce.

There's girls just doing everything there. They don't care. And the family are all involved in that as well. So you've got a really good blend of that. And I think for a sort of medium sized family run business in Scotland, they're really flying the flag for logistics industry as well.

So that's probably sort of three or four companies off the top of my head. But not to, you know, sort of, Keep it just to those those companies, but they're the ones that kind of, you know, I feel are doing a good job. So last question, can you give some examples of your the recruitment that you have done so far in the logistics sector of women who are doing particularly very well?

So some of the roles that have recruited up probably would keep the company confidential because obviously then it will Okay. Name the individual that's secured the role. So one of the last kind of big appointments, which was made just sort of the start of this year and logistic sector, there was, it was actually a real struggle to find, you know, some high level ladies to get into the [00:14:00] role. well, this was a director of supply chain role. And then that role, the bulk of the applications were male. It actually, it was offered to a female in the first instance but she turned it down and she had another offer.

And so it wasn't anything to do with the business. So it wasn't ultimately a male who got the role. And You know, that will often happen just due to the numbers that you have. the presentation of the candidates that went forward, you know, they were fairly balanced trying to get, like, sort of equal weighting of sort of three female, three male to go into that process.

And again, you know, I would say, you know, some businesses are really kind of actively trying to find people to appoint like that, but it's not necessarily always easy. And certainly from a recruiter's perspective, it's not easy for us to, To place females into these roles, because if they're in one process, they might be in four or five, because there are actually some businesses out there, probably like the ones we've mentioned, who are actively seeking females to get onto the board or females to come into some, you know, senior management positions, and, you know, They don't have a huge picking to go [00:15:00] for.

So I know that's kind of probably not an exact and most accurate answer to what you've asked, but the problem is there's just not enough females in the sector to say, here's a list of females I've placed because there's, you know, but that lady was offered and she was exceptional and got something else.

So she was obviously going to have a few things lined up. But yeah, process was good and I don't think she had any complaints either. So I think she, you know, I think she was impressed. She just got a better offer elsewhere. So thank you once again, Jackie, for sharing your valuable insights with us. We truly appreciate your time and expertise.