Episode 2: What has been done to shift the balance? Voices from Women in Logistics

Podcast Series: Gender Mainstreaming, Episode 2

Sudipa Sarker, Lecturer in Logistics and Supply Chain Management and Programme Lead for MSc Global Logistics and Supply Chain Analytics interviews the co-founders of Women in Logistics, Ruth Warring and Clare Bottle. 

Transcript

[00:00:00] thank you for tuning into this podcast series on gender mainstreaming in the logistics sector. We are recording five podcasts and today is the second episode.

In this episode, we will explore the topic of What has been done to make the logistic sector more gender balanced? Our guests today are Ruth Warring and Claire Bottle. They are the co founders of Women in Logistics, which is a cooperative that aims to promote gender diversity in the logistics sector.

Ruth is the chair of Women in Logistics and a multi award winning logistics professional with 34 years of experience. Claire is the CEO of the UK Warehousing Association and the vice chair of Women in Logistics with more than 30 years of experience in the logistics industry. Ruth and Claire, thank you for joining us today.

We appreciate you taking the time to share your insights and experiences with our listeners. [00:01:00] First, we would like to ask you about the motivation behind starting in, starting women in logistics and why you felt the need for such a cooperative back in 2008. 

Thank you, Sudeepa. So I think Claire and I were introduced to each other and we immediately realized that we were kindred spirits and we had a lot in common.

We both had challenging experiences in logistics and we were both absolutely passionate about promoting the logistics. profession as something which is absolutely the right place for women to be. And we both felt that we could, together, we could achieve this amazing ambition. The other thing that was very critical, which was timing related, was the implementation or the tipping point really when LinkedIn became a platform that many, many people began to use.

 when we realized that LinkedIn was becoming such a massive [00:02:00] force within the profession and it got to a million users in 2008. Then in 2009 we had our First ever meeting. We had 40 members in the LinkedIn group and we had 20 people came to the first ever meeting January 2009 and then in May 2009 we had our first in person event and since then we've gone on in leaps and bounds and of course now we're a forum within the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport.

Well, yes, I agree with everything that Ruth just said. I think we, we spoke to a lot of other women that worked in logistics and Ruth in particular did some research on that. And the findings in general were that people who work in logistics, women in particular, absolutely love the job, but sometimes feel the need for solidarity feeling the need to sort of feel part of a community of other women who would understand our experience.

And don't forget Back in 2008, less than 9 percent of the logistics workforce was made up [00:03:00] of women. So we really were in more of a minority than we are today. And so I think it was that need for solidarity that prompted us. Is that right, Ruth? Would you agree with that? 

Yes, absolutely. And I think I'd benefited from that in certain circumstances where I'd had a great female role model or a woman to work realised that when that's lacking, How isolating and lonely that can be, our strapline now is connect, engage, inspire, and I think one of the big things to start with was connecting and just feeling that we were part of something much bigger, and that there was this group of other women out there who had had perhaps similar experiences, and we could share, safe space where it was okay to say this happened to me or how could I tackle this situation and just feel that somehow there was other people that were there who'd got your back.

And I think that was really our initial the real driver for setting the group up was feeling that we were part of a [00:04:00] network 

and part of community.

Okay, thank you for that answer. what you think, uh, or what, according to you is the biggest achievements of women in logistics over the past 15 years? 

Well, there's been so many, it's hard to to, to remember them all but I think the single um, most amazing story that's emerged from the group is Bethany Windsor.

So Bethany is now the director in the CILT that actually looks after women in logistics, and she started her career in logistics as the PA. to a data company that was working in logistics and she got involved with women in logistics, through women logistics, met somebody through CILT, became involved in CILT and then worked for them and now she's been promoted to, to basically she's our boss.

So she is like the ultimate success story through women in logistics. And there's been so many so many [00:05:00] amazing things that have happened as contracts have been one, people have got jobs. So many people have said, you know, I went to an event, I met you, I met Claire and, you know, you inspired me and I went on to do this, this, and this, you know, it's almost impossible to put your finger on.

The specifics, I think this, the expression force for good is relevant here. I think, Claire, would you agree we've been a force for good in the profession? 

Oh, absolutely. Yes. And I think if I was going to pick out something that I would describe as our biggest achievement, it's almost something that sounds like it would be quite a small achievement, but it's had repercussions.

And that is our concept of networking. So for lots of people, and I think perhaps for women in particular, the idea of networking where you have to go to an event and you've got to talk to people you don't know and eat some horrible sandwiches can be quite off putting. And so we came up with this concept that we call networking.

We meet up on a Saturday morning we try and [00:06:00] make it very accessible. Sometimes people bring their children, quite often people bring their dogs and, and any woman, and in fact men as well, are absolutely welcome to come along. And then we just go for a walk in the countryside. And people talk to each other.

And some of these great success stories that Rhys has highlighted have come out of serendipitous meetings that took place in this more informal environment that we've managed to create. So although it feels quite informal and low key, I think networking is probably our biggest achievement.

It's something we try and do four or five times a year. And we've met loads of fabulous people that way. 

I think one of the other things that I felt was a massive success was about two years in, somebody said that they'd moved back to the UK and they'd approached a colleague and said, you know, where's, what's the best networking group to join?

And this person said, Oh, it's women in logistics. He said, but I'm a man. He said, no, that's just the best networking group because they are just phenomenal networkers. So, and I think [00:07:00] that's, that's amazing. And our last conference we had. 170 people in person and more online. And, you know, it's just phenomenal what what we've achieved.

And every year, more and more people come to the party. And I went to an event today, actually, where we had women who'd not heard of Women in Logistics who'd come because it was an event held at their business. And we're still, you know, our tentacles are still reaching far and wide. And I just think it's absolutely phenomenal what we've achieved.

And we're both incredibly proud of that. 

And I can say again, you should be proud of yourself. So we understand that running a cooperative like Women in Logistics would come with its own set of challenges. What is your biggest challenge at the moment and who do you think can help you overcome this challenge?

I think one of my concerns is that we are still needed. I think when Claire and I set the group up in 2008, we hoped by now we would be [00:08:00] no longer required. Uh, We would be obsolete. But, we still are very much needed. And I think that's one of the, the biggest challenges, is that people in the industry sort of think, oh, it's not though, that.

Those women again banging on and it's all boring stuff. Well, actually, it seems in some ways things are perhaps going backwards in some organizations which is, is quite depressing. And there has been a bit of a, you know, kind of an anti woke backlash where everybody that does anything that is Sort of considered to be, you know inclusive, diverse and inclusive is in some ways seen as you know, not having a place in the logistics profession.

And I think sometimes the older. people can influence the younger people and you still have this very old fashioned way of thinking. I think that only applies in certain pockets, but I work in the haulage transport world where there is certainly still a lot of should we [00:09:00] say, Misogynistic attitudes and also just very old fashioned way of thinking about things.

So if somebody said, well, we've got two candidates. One of them is a woman who's just got married, who's 30. And we've got a man who's 30. Employ the man because he won't get pregnant. And there's still a lot of that. I think going on it's perhaps buried a bit more, it's more subtle, but there is a, unfortunately still a significant amount of that.

Would, would you say that's true, Claire? 

Yes, I think so. I think there are definitely still pockets of misogyny, but I'm not sure that it's always necessarily older people that you know, are guilty of that. I think it can be a bit more, as you say, you know sort of hidden. There is another challenge that I wanted to touch on if that's okay.

And that is Back in 2008, I think the idea of focusing on one protected characteristic really made sense. And so, you know, we're all about women, the clues in the title, we're called women in logistics. But I do think a challenge that's [00:10:00] important for us is to consider intersectionality. You know, Ruth and I are similar in age you know we're both privileged white women who are well educated and don't suffer from disabilities and so I think it's important for women like us to, you know, pay more attention to the sort of the crossover of different protected characteristics and be mindful of age and race and disability and some other factors which can make things difficult for other women who are you know, working in our profession.

And it's difficult to know how exactly we can overcome this challenge, but I think that was one of the things that I was very keen. to do by joining the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport. So once upon a time, we were just women in logistics, we were an entirely independent grassroots organisation.

When we came into the family of CILT, it did afford us that opportunity to work with others who were interested in [00:11:00] LGBT issues, for example, or the experiences of LGBT people. disabled people in the transport network. So that's another challenge that I would mention. What do you think, Ruth? 

I think that's true.

I think that in a way we have shown by example, so what we have done and how we've gone about it is a great way of showing other people how it can be done. You know, it's the trodden path. We have trodden the path for other groups, but obviously with women being 50 percent of the population, it's It's perhaps easier for us to get that core number of people behind us, whereas I think with the other groups, there's just almost, it's, there's not enough people to get that activity going.

And certainly sometimes it feels as if you're trying to boil the ocean. You're trying to say, right, we, we know we need, we need, to More black and ethnic minority we need more disabled people, you know we need to think about LGBTQ plus. [00:12:00] And sometimes you'll met your core message can get diluted and then lost because people just see it as, oh, not that lot, you know, whinging on again.

And we want to be very we want to be really positive. One of the things that we've always done is we've always welcomed. You know, we, we, we welcome other people from other organizations. We've always been very inclusive. We've always, you know, had men involved. And, you know, we, I think the, probably the best we can do is to say, well, here's an example of how we did it.

And if other people want to kind of, you know follow our lead, then that's great. But it is sometimes it's difficult to be all things to all people. I think that's, that's part of the problem. And the challenge, one of the challenges and not losing our identity by trying to be too many different things.

So you both have extensive experience in the logistics industry. What, in your opinion, are the biggest parts [00:13:00] of working in the sector? 

Okay, so I love working in logistics. I've worked in logistics since 1989 and, you know, immediately fell in love with the profession. I think the biggest perk really is the sheer variety and it's unbelievable what the variety of jobs there are to do and my, I'm a self employed consultant so sometimes I'm training warehouse managers.

Sometimes I'm doing operator licensing audits in yards. Sometimes I'm training lorry drivers. Sometimes I'm translating for somebody who needs to translate into French because they've got a big customs issue. And I might be doing health and safety review for a client. You know, all of those things are so varied and different.

And yet they're all aspects of logistics compliance, and logistics compliance is just one little bit of logistics. So the sheer variety and fascinating [00:14:00] challenges, you know, I always say to people, if you can work in logistics, if you can survive in logistics, You can really do anything. It's that sort of place.

So I think that's a great perk, that you have a huge amount of variety. There are some really fascinating people working in logistics, and you do meet all, all life is here in logistics, and that's not true in every profession. You get to understand what makes drivers tick, forklift drivers. And everybody from the forklift driver and the driver all the way up to the MD, everybody will talk to you.

It's a very sort of friendly and welcoming environment, which again isn't the same in all professions. And since we've set up Women in Logistics, of course one of the other great perks is that we get to go to some fabulous awards. So we get to be reasonably glam and we get to eat lovely food.

And you know, we've done some phenomenal things, which I think really before women in logistics existed, we, you know, we just wouldn't [00:15:00] have had access to those things. So not only do we have access, but we've, you know, we've brought other women with us to have access to amazing networking events. And I think those perks are perks as you earn as you get older, but I think it's, you know, it's worth sort of remembering that there is a glamorous side to logistics.

It's not all high vis jackets and safety boots. And I think it's, It's a fabulous cradle to grave place to work, you know, it's all aspects of life. And it's just a very vibrant and invigorating place to work. 

Yes, I agree with all of that. I think I have three points that I wanted to say about, you know, what I love about working in logistics.

And I would say that the first one very much mirrors what Ruth was saying about the people, such friendly people, you meet really fantastic colleagues working in logistics. I think one of the reasons for that is because. Because of the nature of the work. So again, you know, I agree with Ruth about the variety, but in particular in logistics, [00:16:00] I think you need a good balance between intellectual skills to be able to think of creative solutions to tricky problems, but also practical skills to to be able to put something into practice that will really work.

So the kind of people who are good at that sort of work are usually really fun colleagues to work with, but it's also very rewarding in its own right. And the third point, which I think is worth saying is that in a lot of cases, the pay is good and the opportunities to progress in your career are good as well.

And outside of the logistics profession, I think our reputation doesn't reflect that. But in reality, the you get friendly colleagues, the nature of the work is really interesting and it's a well paid job with good opportunities to progress. Who wouldn't want to work in logistics? 

Absolutely.

That's great. Great to hear. Yes, of course, we would like more women to join also the logistics sector. So what advice would you give to women who are currently working or [00:17:00] considering working? I 

think the first thing to say is it's, it's, it's not necessarily the easiest job to get your head round.

And if you're not used to working in the sector, it might be a little bit of a culture shock. Persevere. It's, you know, don't, don't sort of say, oh, this isn't for me and walk away. I can remember when I was a graduate trainee, just having that moment of, oh my goodness, what have I done? You know, working on nights, night shift in a Coventry warehouse.

and thinking, Hmm, I'm not sure this is quite what I had in mind. But actually, once you get past that, it's actually incredible. And I think part of the challenge is that many women sort of dip their toe in the water and think, Oh, no, it's not for me without giving it a real go. And ways you can do that is to maybe start off as perhaps doing something like a a student job or a job in the holidays where you [00:18:00] just get used to the banter, you get used to working in a warehouse environment or in a depot and you just kind of adapt and realize that, you know, you can Be a chameleon.

You can change and be to be with different people as long as you keep the essence of you and are true to yourself and just understand how your behavior needs to adapt a little bit to be with different types of people. Because I think that's the, the biggest thing is this, this culture shock and.

It's just, it's keeping your nerve in those first few weeks and just saying, no, I, I can do this. Actually, this is an incredible career and I'm going to get through this first sort of sense of almost like the early days of motherhood where you just think, what on earth, what on earth am I doing? And you just, you keep going because you have to, and I think that's what is required with women.

You know, lean in, meet them halfway, maybe do a little bit of research [00:19:00] into the football results at the weekend. So you've got something to say to your male colleagues. And then over time, eventually they might start listening to your views on Strictly Come Dancing. But you know, you have to you have to start off by realizing that it probably is going to be a bit tough and it is going to be a bit alien to start with, but that doesn't mean it's not the most amazing place to work.

Yeah, and to build on that, I absolutely agree. And I think a couple of bits of advice that I would give to women is to do some networking, even if you think that, you know, it's going to take you outside your comfort zone. It's good to build that network, to talk to other people, not necessarily, you know, Just in your organization, but also beyond it perhaps even think about getting a mentor so that you've got somebody that you can you know, refer to for specific bits of advice, but in both cases with networking or with mentoring Try and think fairly strategically about what it is that you want to get out of that.

So how do you [00:20:00] think networking or having a mentor could help you in your career? And be pretty straightforward about that. And, you know, you can say to people, I'm networking with you because I think you're going to be able to help me in my career. And this is what I think you might be able to do for me.

And similarly with with mentoring. Don't don't be put off from trying out those things, even if. they initially feel a little bit uncomfortable because that will help you to grow into a career in 

logistics.

So last question where do you see the logistics sector with regard to gender mainstreaming five to 10 years from now? 

Yeah, really good question. And what's amazing really now is that this is becoming something that is now being talked about that is becoming normal. An event today with a big 3PL company, and one of their sort of major strategies is getting people to call out bias, [00:21:00] unconscious bias, lots of people having unconscious bias training, and teaching women in particular, how to say something, whether it's with humor or, so without sounding like they're just a po faced old fashioned person, when somebody says something misogynistic or racist or just something that's not appropriate in, in the workforce in 2024.

And I think that is, is, That's a trajectory that's going to continue, which is great because I think that's one of the areas where lots of people struggle. And one of the questions was really interesting today. Somebody said, what happens if you're in a customer meeting and that you get somebody saying something that's really not true?

in line with the, with, with your views or, or the culture of, of your company. And interestingly the the sort of generic view was it's okay to call people out as long as you do it in a polite way. And, you know, you again, use who [00:22:00] humor but that seems to be more and more. Yeah. the norm that it is becoming okay to say actually, you know, I don't think that's an appropriate thing to say, or again, you know, making you, it doesn't have to be a, you know, a huge deal, but you just say something at the right time so that that person knows that that's not a route that you're happy for them to go down.

And I think that is a really interesting trajectory. I'm also hoping that with, you know, Gen Z coming in and the, the new wave, which is apparently called Gen Alpha, you know, we've got a lot of neurodiverse people coming into the workforce and that's becoming much more of a thing which is recognized. I think that's going to be a really interesting and vibrant mix of different, you know, bit of a melting pot. So I'm excited for the next five to 10 years in terms of how the gender mainstreaming sort of debate goes forward and [00:23:00] very interested to see how Gen Z and Gen Alpha take that discussion on.

Yes, I agree. And I think you know, in the next five to 10 years, I hope that we'll see even more change and a faster pace of change. As Ruth mentioned earlier, when we set this up in 2008, we were kind of hopeful that by 2024, you wouldn't need women in logistics anymore. But of course, we are Women in Logistics UK.

It would be wrong to talk about this topic without at least acknowledging that more widely across the world, you know, there's the UN gender inequality index, which picks out countries like Pakistan and Yemen, where the experience of women is really terrible. And I think it's our, it's our responsibility in the UK to try and showcase equality to try and make it move faster and normalise it, because that's likely to be a kind of showcase for other countries around the world where the [00:24:00] plight of women is much worse than it is here 

in the UK.