Banking without Barriers Insights into the European Accessibility Act

Prepare to unlock the doors to financial inclusion as we host Bianca Prins from ING and Paul Geerts from SIA Partners, leading voices in the quest for accessible banking. This episode is a treasure trove of insights, revealing how the European Accessibility Act is reshaping the landscape for financial institutions. We'll navigate through the nuances of legislation and culture that impact the banking sector, guided by our guests' pioneering work on a report dedicated to enhancing accessibility standards in the financial industry. Their expertise not only highlights the importance of preparedness but also the complexities multinational corporations face in a world of diverse regulations.

Explore the transformative power of accessible banking and the economic ripple effects it creates, as we share stories of innovation and adaptation in the industry. Accessibility isn't just about compliance—it's about connection and empowerment. Our discussion sheds light on the practical steps banks are taking to ensure their services are inclusive, thereby enriching the lives of people with disabilities.  From litigation in the United States that's setting precedents to the promise of global standardization, we examine the broad impact of the European Accessibility Act and its potential to catalyze change worldwide.

Finally, we share an inspiring tale of a modest Dutch website that has made waves in the academic world, illustrating the profound impact that comes from sharing knowledge widely. This episode is not only a call to action for the financial sector but also a celebration of the collaborative efforts that drive the visibility and progress of accessibility initiatives. 

With the support of our listeners and advocates, we're committed to keeping this conversation accessible and illuminating for all. Join us for a journey that promises to deepen your understanding and appreciation of an inclusive society where everyone has a seat at the table.

Transcript

0:00

AXSCHAT Bianca Prins & Paul Geerts

NEIL: 0:01

Hello and welcome to Axschat. Today I'm delighted that we welcome a returning guest, Bianca Prins of ING and also Paul Geerts of Sia Partners. So great to have you with us, Paul and Bianca. Seems like ages since I've spoken to you, Bianca. But you know, on the back of global accessibility awareness day, it's been a busy week for many people within the accessibility community. But I know that you still got plenty to talk about and we've still got plenty to talk about because accessibility, as you say is not a gesture and you have written about this and I think that this is a topic that you're keen to expand on further. So without further ado, would you care to introduce yourselves again to those of our audience who have not met you or are meeting you for the first sometime. So maybe we should go to Paul first, since you're the newbie to the show. So welcome Paul.

PAUL: 1:05

Thank you Neil. Well, I'm glad to be on the show. Really looking forward to the session. Well, as you can see in the headline also, I'm working at Sia Partners, which is a consulting agency, worldwide active. I'm based in the Netherlands and well, thanks to Bianca, I've been -- we work together on, I think a nice report, to get more -- to provide insight to the market on the Accessibility Act which is coming up in Europe. And I think that good thing for us is we really want to promote that banks and other financial institutions are spending some time on this and really getting prepared on this because we think that's an important topic to address. So we are pleased to work together with ING and Bianca on drafting this and well, I think this is also a great opportunity to share some insights from that report and you know and answer your questions.

NEIL: 2:15

Thank you. And Bianca, for those that don't know because you're actually a regular, not just on the show but part of the social medical community. So I would be surprised if people don't know you, but it would be great if you could still tell people who you are and what you do.

BIANCA: 2:36

Who I am and what I do. Apart from being active on Axschat, most of the time, so I don't have any trainings or any other stuff to do. So I'm Bianca Prins, I'm Global Head of Accessibility at ING. And I've been do that since 2017. You probably could have met me as a speaker at Enabling or at Zero Project. So from that perspective there is many places. I'm also certified professional from IAP. So on that perspective, also within the IAP community, especially in Europe and from other things, you could know me, I've done some research, which is also shared, last year on accessibility verses Access 2. Dignified access for persons with a disability from access in support of people with digital literacy, so from that perspective, that's one of the things. And I'm very happy that we wrote this report together, with Paul and also, with his colleague Stefan, who is not here today because one the key things and I think that is a unique thing is that we had the opportunity to write this report together, to publish the report together and that's a great thing because that is in spirit of collaboration within the accessibility community and something quite new for ING and not for CR Partners but for ING it's a unique one and I'm very happy to be here today and talk about this report.

NEIL: 4:10

Fantastic. I see Debra is itching to get in and have a question.

DEBRA: 4:18

Well, thank you, Neil. You know what, what I wanted to ask a question which is probably a weird place to start but I had this conversation with somebody the other day and so I actually thought, it would be a good question to start with and also it really ties into why we need this research so much. So one thing I would like to immediately say is, I want to make sure that we send out links to the research so that the access audience can see that. So I know we'll make sure that happens. But I know, I am global, my work is global but I'm located in the United States, as many people know in a lovely green Virginia, but here in the United States, we are get a little bit unnerved because a lot of our American corporations are, well we fear that maybe they are backing up a little bit on their accessibility promises, that might not be true, we just might be nervous, but I was talking to people the other day, an expert in the feel. And they said, well, Debra, we are also seeing that in the States but where we are not seeing it is in the EU and actually still in the UK. Those countries, the brands we are seeing are leading and I just thought that was so interesting and they said maybe it's happening because of you know the laws happening in the EU. And so, I just think that is a really significant change. I'm not saying American companies are not going to take accessibility and disability inclusion seriously but the community is worried about some of the signs we are seeing and it's not just from American corporations because a lot of corporations are global. But I just think one thing I would like to get out of this call is I would like to make sure that our American audience understands what is really happening in Europe and why is this different from what we have seen in the past, especially times we are adding more legislations here in the United States but we are fearful that actually some of our brands aren't taking this seriously anymore just because of the tough times to be fair to those brands. So that would sort of be my question. What are you all doing in the EU? Why did you do this research? And -- but once again hats off to the UK because you seem to be paying attention to it as well. Not saying the States are not. I just think we are a little bit distracted over here. And thank you for being on the show again, Bianca and welcome, Paul.

BIANCA: 6:46

I'm happy to take this one. And one of the key reasons I think that is also on one of the things, it's slightly mentioned in the report but in a lot of cases accessibility, especially in the US what I noticed is that often it's nice the nice have. It's the extra thing they do and within HR it comes last. And I think one of the key differences I noticed, within the field of accessibility experts, verses Europe, versus the US is actually that because of the legislation it becomes a complaints topic instead. If that's one 100% good, I'm also not sure because I rather believe in it from the business perspective. But I think that's one of the key differences. In the US it's about liability and it's accounting how much is this liability worth. Do we take the risk for a lawsuit? That's what I notice. And then I think there is the third one, is that the difference is that in many countries, we see and I see them too, conversations between businesses and monitoring authorities. And that's I think the big difference between the legislation in the US and the legislation in Europe because we have to connect with monitoring authorities. We also say this in the report. Have conversations with them. Because they are the once that will look into how the legislation is force and they are the first stop to go. And I don't know how Paul thinks about it. But from the field what I notice that's the big difference. Those are the big differences that stand out for me.

PAUL: 8:32

Well, happy to add a couple of views on this. And I already agree fully with what you said in the beginning Biance, because it should not only come from regulation because then you're complying. And well all the firms, the corporate, financial institutions and it's only getting worser and worser from a company point of view. So if that's the only line. That would not be, I think, a real thing to do so. One thing that we also highlight in the report is that we also want to emphasise is that there is also something to gain from companies, yes, because there is also economic power, in this group. But I think other important steps on, of important things on this, on what is happening in Europe, is that of course you have to, I think a good debate in society on how do we make sure that everyone can join in and participate in our world, in our society and so, in some cases you see that accessibility is taken broader then let's say disability but also in terms of capabilities to well have a conversation or and understand what you're reading. So it's sometimes being taken very broad or even access to digital tooling, for instance. So in some cases it's taken very broad. But that also means there is an I for everyone that's not always included. And that is really helpful in having this debate and also internally in organisations, in having a debate on are we open from all of the customers that are out there or all of the potential customers that are out there. Interestingly enough, you see the same thing on the employee side, also internally, a lot of companies are thinking about, am I really able to connect all my employees to the organisation or am I even open to having all kinds of employees joining my organisation. So I think those movements are also -- those developments are also supportive to this angle.

NEIL: 10:51

I have just a quick comment on regulations and the difference between the sort of cultures of US and Europe. There was -- someone joked that the only industry Europe led in was creating regulation. I don't think that's true. But we are world leading on creating regulations and I think an ex-boss of mine and Antonio, have some say in that. Yes. We -- our old boss is a chap called Cherry Braton, who has done a fair bit of create regulations on Europe. If I were to meet him again tomorrow, I would be asking him where the explicit mention of disability inclusion and accessibility is in the some of those regulations. So -- and I think that the concept of an understanding of how we digitally include people and whether it's digital inclusion or societal inclusion, verses accessibility, there are many of these different angles, and as Bianca and I talked about, on different conversations, depending on the audience, you choose whichever one connects with them to make the progress. Because I think we have to be pragmatic. I agree with you Paul, in terms of regulatory burden, sitting within large organisations. There is so much that organisations need to comply with, that it's difficult to know where to start and that often those regulations conflict. So in complying with one, you may breach another. Especially when it's in complex and multinational situations. That doesn't mean that we can't take a broad approach an instructed approach to inclusion. But it does make it more tricky just to apply a compliance approach as the main driver. I know Antonio has got a question, which is -- so I'll hand over to him. So I was looking at some of the insights on the report and you know, making some analogies between GDPR and the European Accessibility Act. And something that came out of the GDPR, is some of the governments and institutions that were supposed to be the regulators, they were the first offenders; okay? So if you ask me today, you know, oh the Portuguese government or the Irish government is going to regulate and is going to be amongst, you know, holding out business for breaking the law, when they are amongst the first ones to break the law. So -- and on the other hand we know that in Europe, we have some governments that in the past had a kind of a more educative approach to you know the case of the government in Norway, where you know they have a more educative approach in relation to supporting business to become accessible. So how -- do you see that is the European Accessibility Act just a law that comes out and then in the wild, everyone needs to follow or they are -- or do we see the European Commission putting together or encouraging countries to find a way to support business to move into this journey of compliance?

BIANCA: 14:52

I think this is a complex one, Antonio and you touch an important thing. One of the things and that is example outside of EA, but within the Netherlands, we had a quota for hiring persons with disabilities and the government didn't make their quota. So instead of getting the fine they said, do you know what let's shift the quota and say it's business and its government. So then we can make it. So in that part, I was like, on one side I was really disappointed. On the other side I expected this one to come. And partially I am in some countries, I am worried for the same thing happening. So for example if I look now, and I look at AFM, the Dutch monitoring authority for the financial market, if I look at them, I know and I also learned that they miss part of the knowledge. So they are not as knowledgeable as ING is, for example, based on the fact that we have been working on this for a longer time. I know some of the other banks also do stuff. And when it comes to real knowledge about applying and that's why we wrote this report also, that that is missing. So they need to start. And if I look at how long it took me to get to the point of getting a policy, getting training and plans, all together. It took me years. I mean, I'm like eight years ahead of some of the businesses in the Netherlands. That means they have a long way to go. So from that perspective. It will be hard. On the other part, we do see countries, like example, Germany, which is going really strong and to be honest, I expect earlier that a legal issue, with any corporate business, will appear in Germany because they are more strict, as they are also in cultural perspectives. So they are really strict in the regulations. I would expect a country like Germany coming with an issue for Accessibility Act, earlier than the Netherlands but it's good fire, backfire on the Netherlands. Meaning, for example, let's say it's an app, I'm not saying a bank or anything, let's say it's an app and the app does not comply with the WCAG and the German Judge says this app has to comply and we do the strongest regulative action we can do which means market retraction. But the app is also used the Netherlands, it's used in Belgium and it's used in France, which means, other countries cannot use the app anymore. And this is the most extreme case. Let's keep it on that one. But in that case, it does apply in the Netherlands, even if the legislation here says, we don't take it that strict or the monitoring authority says, I don't see that issue as well. But the Judge in Germany said it does. Those are the cases which will show how the EAA will be enforced and that will be the interesting case. Before those things happen that a Judge in country in the German Judge in this case, says the app is in complaint. You have to retract if from all markets where you're active but what happens with the other markets? How are they going to reply. And that's the part where Antonio's problem comes in and yes, it is a fearsome thing because there are quite some differences and I see them. We have eight programmes running in the different countries and you see differences in it and from our perspective we said, you know what, we ca only fix this if we have an internal standard which complies with the highest standard in one of the countries and the other countries have to adhere to that because components are exchanged and stuff like that. So from that perspective that is, it's a challenging one. But I don't think it's just the EAA that has this problem, Paul?

PAUL: 19:03

No, I think this is a common thing and that has to do, I think, and I can only speak about this as a European person. So Debra please, from an American, but in the end we are all still countries, within a greater set up, in the Europe setup. But and so, there is still room for local adjustments. And we see that in all of the regulation which is happening in Europe. But looking from a positive side. I think it's also good that we have to start off regulation, on a European level and that also for instance, supervisors, like Bianca, is mentioning, you have them, but you have the ECB and all others, looking at what banks are doing but also comparing banks because in the end -- and that's the same for new legislation or assessing whether countries meet the regulation, is highering the bars every time, is raising the bars every time. Because the ones that are breaking rules or not good enough performing on let's say a corporate level or bank level, will be pushed by regulators or supervisors, that should meet up with the average. And the average is going up. And I think the same applies for what Bianca is describing, if you have a multinational firm, you are setting a policy for a higher standard. Meaning that the countries that are not that active will move up. And I think that, from a positive note, we are moving up but it's step by step and it's maybe not ideal in all cases.

DEBRA: 20:41

I agree, Paul. And I would also say that I know that our culture of suing has caused an us and them between the brands and our community and then you have to business-to-business groups in the United States, that honestly, sometimes I don't think any of us understand where they are supposed to play. Are you supposed to protect the brands at all costs or are you supposed to care about the community and I say that because in some ways, just the messy way we do things, really complicates life for everybody and so, and I have such empathy for these corporate brands too because even if they are trying so hard and actually being successful, they get anything wrong and different parts of our community will come after them. So they don't even get appreciated for what they are doing; right. I won't mention the brand but I posted something about an American brand that is just a nice little thing for our community, for our community that is deaf. And I was shocked at the attacks on this brand. Now, the attacks came with very grounded information, did you see what they did to this employee, did you see this and all of this stuff has been in the news and I remember not really sure how to respond to it because once again, I'm building Billion Strong, bringing our community together. But I am pro corporation, I am only, only if the corporations meaningfully want to include us. If they are going to do like one brand did, just excuse all the blind users out of nowhere, fine, we'll talk up, we are going to fight for our rights. But this us and them thing has really been troubling and I actually talked to a group that it represents a very large segment of our community, disability community in the United States and they are saying, maybe what we need to do is start to get other institutions to get together, so we can sue them even bigger.

BIANCA: 22:41

No, but you're right on that one Debra. I think the them and us --

DEBRA: 22:45

It's an issue.

BIANCA: 22:47

That is a big issue and I have recently. Last year, you noticed too on LinkedIn it happened. When I mentioned that accessibility and disability inclusion, if you separate them out and you have the cultural part and you have the operational part, which is about accessibility. Some of the US people, advocates, disability advocates, actually were really mad because I just said that out loud and I say it already for years and the interesting part is a lot of the experts agree on it and that is -- but then it comes to them us. And I said, what if it -- you cannot fix a culture and give out without making sure that the ramp is there. If you fix the culture but the ramp is not there, the wheelchair is not going to get in.

DEBRA: 23:36

Right.

BIANCA: 23:37

If you fix the culture but your screen reader doesn't work, you cannot have the same experience as any other employee has, if you depend on the screen reader. So from that perspective that, we/them. That's a troublesome one.

DEBRA: 23:54

I agree and that's all-over social media we can't stop that. But I will also say that, I will also say that my beautiful country, because we did sue brands. We got brands interested to pay attention. And so, I'm not saying the way we do it in the States is right. We are going to continue to do our legal system and our community is actually talking about us getting together even more to use our legal system, if our brands will not include us or stop including us. I mean, that -- it's not the way to do it. But we already did that in the States, that is who we are. It's just who we are and I'm proud to be an American. I'm just saying, we've made things messy, so we would appreciate if you all would all go and clean everything up. Get fully accessible and then tell the States, hey, we did it. Anyway, I'm being sarcastic there. Back to you, Neil.

NEIL: 24:48

Actually, I'm handing to Antonio because I know he had a question.

DEBRA: 24:51

Okay.

ANTONIO: 24:52

So how can banks keep up with the evolving accessibility standards and technology, gather feedback from users with disabilities and understand the long-term benefits of and/or why of investing in accessibility?

NEIL: 25:16

We can do it all. I mean it's easy. You know, you can do it all. You have got one person, you just put your cape on. Throw your underpants on over your trousers.

DEBRA: 25:27

So true.

NEIL: 25:30

It's complex. You know, it's complex. It requires resourcing. I think that actually what we have given Debra, a bit of a hard time about suing everybody, test cases are important. Case law is really important and you know, case law is going to be important for the European Accessibility Act. And how that gets implemented. It goes beyond the boundaries of the European market because if you want to sell into the market. So if you are in the UK and you sell products into Europe, the EAA affects you there. Likewise, for US companies selling into the European market. So that GDPR moment that you were talking about before. I think there is some parallel there in that this piece of legislation goes beyond those borders and will have an impact, at a global level for accessibility that many of the other pieces of legislation have not had and that hopefully, what will come towards is harmonisation. What we are seeing is that there is some harmonisation of standards happening. So for example, Canada is adopting the N301549. So the European standard. So that is also starting to propagate through Africa, as well. So Kenya adopted the N301549 with knobs on because they added a few bits. A bit like the Germans, with BITV added a couple of bits to WCAG. Does everyone like acronym's? Because I think that acronyms are really nice and understandable. Well done accessibility community. So but I do think that as we get towards more harmonised standards it makes it easier to do some of this difficult tricky stuff because as Paul was talking about before, we are raising the floor and everybody’s sort of having to come up to that baseline. At least we are all looking towards a common baseline.

PAUL: 27:49

That was also one of the ideas behind the report is on the one hand we wanted to provide insight that what is the act about. And also how do we implement this. And one of the additions that we from Siet Partners did is to use our yearly benchmark that we do on digital banking app, for instance, on what do banks already have in place, in their app. And simply by having five or six features to look at and to show within 37 banks, do they have this in place or not. You're already providing examples to banks who are not active in this yet, how easy it can be. Simple like adding something like contrast or a voice over. We do see that some banks have in place some have. We hope that by showing these relatively simple examples that more banks are getting enthusiasm on adding those features to the app. And that is also, I think, well, that's why we put it in the report and try to make it as concrete as possible.

BIANCE: 29:00

Yes and as an extension to that, it's about looking at the customers with a disability as economic value and I think there, the important element lies and I know Debra has been working on the same thing, for a lot of years. But one of the key things and I think, in that perspective, Europe differs quite from the US, is that a lot of people still think, even when it's not the truth anymore, that people with a disability are much taken care of but they need to do more themselves. There is a lot of things, which were arranged in the past. They are not arranged anymore. People need to live more independently and that also comes and that's why this report is so important because you cannot live independently without a bank account. You cannot hold a job without a bank account. You cannot pay your taxes without a bank account. It's these basic things. Why this sector must have to step up because otherwise, a lot of the elements and it's the European Accessibility Act. It's the UNCRPD, the Convention on the Rights for Persons with Disabilities. If we want to work on those things we need banks. Because the simple fact it's about the economy and everything in the end, how unfortunate, it's still about money. I mean, you can live in roots, and have your own garden with your vegetables and everything there. But you still have to pay your utilities, Debra. So from that perspective, so from that perspective. So those things are often, I don't think they are not recognised enough or the disability community. And we knew, we heard words like disability tax. If you explain this, a lot of people don't understand. But it is there. It is about extra costs. But also we see four people with a disability find a job. Meaning their income grows, their disposable income grows. They can spend more on so many things and they want to do that. So in the essence, if the European Accessibility Act really would do its work and I think, we have seen some of the examples with the ADA but those were most based on the lawsuit, you see it as, I don't know how you call it in English. So it's a way of going faster and faster. And the treadmill goes faster and faster because you have the part of, if you have access to the bank account, if you have access to the job, the job brings more income, you can buy more stuff. So you do not buy the cheapest thing you want to have choice. And that's one of the key things because if we talk about accessibility and Susanna Lauren brought it in a few months ago and she did her study on it on IAAP the modality element on it, the ability to choose what you want to use. Do you want to buy the washing machine from Label A, B, and C or do you have to buy A because that's the only one which is accessible or can you choose between the banks? Which bank is more accessible? That should be a choice. Instead of I can only use one because that is the only one which is accessible. And I think, for providing the choices and within your, within ING it's the same thing. Are you able to use the web or the mobile application. You should be able to use both.

NEIL: 32:48

Yes.

BIANCA: 32:49

That's what accessible in essence is about. And it's not about pushing people to get one channel. It's about giving them the ability to choose between the channels they want to use. Which one do you like? I mean that's in essence what it's about. You don't want it enforced. I mean that's -- who wants to be enforced to use a certain thing.

NEIL: 33:13

We have enough of that from our government; right. So public sector, public services have to be accessible because you don't have that those choice. So a couple of things, now, we do probably need to close in a bit but this is an interesting conversation, so we'll stretch it. I remember being asked by one of my seniors, ages ago, why are you interested in PSD2 Neil, what that's got to do with accessibility? Right and this is Debra, this is a regulation about portability of data in banking and so on and so for me, what actually, why I am interested in this, it giving people access to choose. And you know, there may only be one accessible banking app. But you could choose through the power of PSD2 to actually start linking up the bank accounts that you could not access through the inaccessible apps, to the one that is. So, from my point of view, legislation in all sorts of adjacent spaces can also have a positive or negative impact on inclusion. And then the point that I wanted to make, backing up what Bianca was saying was that actually when you include people you contribute to the growth of the economy. And if we look at this in other parts of the world. So in the global south for example and particularly, we are doing work in Africa. I was having conversation with our CEO of our African operations and she was saying, but this is doubly important where I am because you have the care, family care; right. So if someone is disabled and they are outside of the -- outside of work, it's not just one job that is lost to the economy and one income and one set of tax, it's two or maybe more. So by creating accessibility and getting people with disabilities into jobs, you're making them taxpayers instead of recipients of benefits but -- or you're actually making two people taxpayers. So you're doubling the net contribution to the economy. So rather than this stuff being seen as a fiscal drag on economies. This is actually, should be seen and we need more research on this actually as to how it creates growth and supports the acceleration of the economy, that spinning wheel that Bianca was talking about.

BIANCA: 35:58

Yes, but that is why I'm looking forward to the latest report, which I expect this year from return on disability group because if you look at the 2016/2020 difference and you look at the US that was the same period where there was a lot of law suits and you saw disposable income growing really fast in the US for the persons with disability and I that's an interesting part. I think partially has to do with taxes but a lot of it also has to do with the change that more people became active in the economy. More people found jobs in that period and that's an interesting thing. And I would expect something the same happening Europe, in the coming years, especially after 2025. But the big question actually is, how can we get those numbers on the big tables. Because I know that Richard Donovan is doing a great job trying to get his figures more on the table. But a lot of people don't know them. If I share them, then they are like, okay this is not possible. So and especially, one of the key things in those numbers, is in the same period that disposable income doubled in the US for the disability community and the community grew less and is still smaller than it is in the EU and that is one of the things where I say, you know what, this shows and it really calls for more research. And I'm really not the big numbers person. I use the numbers others have. So from that perspective. I'm really honest in that because I like it and I like to do the research but I get a headache from it because 8's look like 9's and 3's. So from that perspective. But that has to do with my disability. But in that perspective, we can do a lot and that's why I'm also happy to contribute to research and say, you know what, it's professional research. And it does find its way, as I posted last week on LinkedIn, I found out I was sited in seven papers until now. And that's quite interesting because I did not expect that because I have a small website. It's a Dutch website. I have only have one English page which shares all of the research. On the other side, it finds its way, one way or the other, into the economic world. But we need to get more feet on the ground there, to get those numbers because we have all the independent researchers going around, but we need to get food on the ground with the universities. So maybe we can haunt. Maybe we can haunt the Hawkin Institute to help us out on that one.

NEIL: 38:47

Yes, thank you. We can always haunt people. Excellent. Thank you for such an informative and engaging chat today, wide ranging topics. Look forward to continuing this discussion on social media shortly. But I need to thank Amazon and My Clear Text for keeping us On Air and keeping us captioned etc. Thank you Paul and Bianca. It has been a real pleasure talking with you.

BIANCA: 39:19

You're welcome.

PAUL: 39:20

Thank you for having us.