Leadership Lessons and Judo Tactics

The Quality Corner Show invites back Jesse McCullough, Founder of Keystone Pharmacy Insights, to cover a variety of leadership lessons and topics without getting thrown by podcast Host Nick Dorich, PharmD, PQS Senior Manager of Pharmacy Accounts.

McCullough talks about directional leadership, suggests implementing Judo tactics into leadership strategy such as reversal moves, and explores the discipline of the hope of healthcare.

Read the start of the Hope of Healthcare below:
It's time to explore pharmacy as the hope of healthcare

Jesse McCullough on LinkedIn
http://www.facebook.com/groups/kpipharmacy/

Chapters

• 1:15 Intro
• 6:07 Directional Leadership
• 11:22 Engaging Leadership in Pharmacy
• 19:17 The Difference Between Leadership and Management
• 21:03 Judo Tactics
• 23:32 Hope of Healthcare
• 26:40 Anger and Courage
• 31:14 Closing

Transcript

00:00:01:15 - 00:00:26:16

Jesse M

If health care is going to get better. Like what? What is the drawing factor for this? And I would say that anyone in any discipline within health care, I hope you answer it, that my discipline is the hope of health care. Right. We're in pharmacy here. So I'm going to tell you, my perspective is, is that pharmacy and pharmacists are the hope of health care.

00:00:26:18 - 00:00:51:19

Intro

Welcome to the Pharmacy Quality Solutions Quality Corner Show where quality measurement leads to better patient outcomes. This show will be your go to source for all things related to quality improvement and medication use and health care. We will hit on trending health topics as they relate to performance measurements and find common ground for payers and practitioners. We will discuss how the equipped platform can help you with your performance goals.

00:00:51:21 - 00:01:13:07

Intro

We will also make sure to keep you up to date on pharmacy quality news. Please note that the topics discussed are based on the information available at the date and time of reporting. Information or guidelines are updated periodically and we will always recommend that our listeners research and review any guidelines that are newly published. Buckle up and put your thinking cap on.

The Quality Corner show starts now.

00:01:28:04 - 00:01:52:15

Nick Dorich

Hello Quality Corner Show listeners. Welcome to the PQS podcast, where we focus on medication, use, quality improvement and how we can utilize pharmacists to improve patient health outcomes. I'm your host, Nick Dortch. Now for today's show. It's actually kind of a regular annual show that we do here at the Quality Corner Show, and we're going to bring back an old favorite, one of our long time collaborators.

00:01:52:15 - 00:02:12:15

Nick

On the quality Corner Show, someone who's been here before and our resident expert on all things as it relates to leadership and development for pharmacists, but also just generally for health care. Beyond that, he's an all around good guy and that means, of course, I am talking about none other than our friend Jesse McCullough. So, Jess, welcome back to the show.

How are you doing today?

00:02:13:16 - 00:02:27:09

Jesse M

I am doing well, Nick. It's good to be back on the show. It's hard to believe it's been it's been years since we started this show. Like you and I started this. What, like, well, long four, four years ago. So this is this.

00:02:27:11 - 00:02:30:20

Nick

Is season four. So yeah, four years ago. Yeah. This podcast.

00:02:30:22 - 00:02:55:15

Jesse M

So so first kudos to you but that's that is not an easy thing to do. So I want to recognize you for the good work that you've been doing, getting the word out about appropriate medication use love, see, and just the diversity and the guests that you have. And very much thank you for the opportunity to come back and chime in with some with some thoughts that I have today.

00:02:55:17 - 00:03:12:10

Nick

Excellent. Well, Jess, I know you're here. You're still a listener to the show. You will send me a text or I'll get a comment on a LinkedIn post when there's particular episodes that really catch your fancy or episodes that really hit home for you and your experience in working with pharmacists. But let's talk a little bit about your experience working with pharmacists.

00:03:12:10 - 00:03:29:10

Nick

And I know you, David, our producer on the back end, he knows you. Some of our listeners have heard you on the show before and but some may be new and they may not know who you are. So can you give us a little bit of a rundown, you know, who you are, what you do, and and obviously your organization, Keystone Pharmacy insights.

00:03:29:14 - 00:03:52:06

Jesse M

Yes, sir. So as you said, I'm I decided I decided a couple of years ago, years ago. That's easy for me to say, to go out on my own, because after spending a number of years in community pharmacy, spent a number of years in corporate pharmacy, you know, having the opportunity to work with independent pharmacies over the years.

00:03:52:06 - 00:04:10:23

Jesse M

What really took my eye was a lack of leadership skills. And I don't mean that as an indictment. I mean, that is an observation. And it was something that I had hoped was sort of unique to the first situation that I was in. But what I have found is, is that it's something that we all deal with.

So what I have done over the last several years is I've invested a boatload of personal time and resource and money into learning good leadership. And what I do today is I equip pharmacists with good leadership skills so that they can lead their teams well and that they can lead the patients that they serve. Well.

00:04:33:03 - 00:05:00:02

Nick

Excellent. Well, just glad to have you here. I really like to see if folks if you don't follow Jesse on LinkedIn, go search him. Go find him out there. Just used to also run or operate the Keystone Pharmacy Insights Facebook group which I'm a member of as well. So a lot of great ways to get information, a lot of great ways to get inspirational messages and also a great place to get some great thought provoking question.

00:05:00:04 - 00:05:16:22

Nick

It's not always sunshine and rainbows. And Jesse, I think you do a great job of blending some of those messages, talking about things when they're good, when they're great, and sometimes how we have to work together to pull not just our selves up, but ourselves collectively too, to a better place. And that's what we're going to talk about today.

00:05:16:22 - 00:05:36:05

Nick

So Jesse is an expert. Jesse is one of the you know, I was going to say key keynote, but I guess Keystone speakers in this area. And as we were finishing out our set of podcast for the year, it was time for our annual check in with Jesse and our leadership talks. So, Jesse, I've got a couple of topics that we're going to hit on today.

00:05:36:07 - 00:05:37:06

Nick

Are you ready to go?

00:05:37:08 - 00:05:41:11

Jesse M

I'm ready to go. Throw me a fastball right down the middle.

00:05:41:13 - 00:06:06:20

Nick

All right, folks. Well, we're going to jump right into today's session for for our topic, our conversations. So the first part that I want to start with, and as we were putting together our thought process, what do we want to address? Jesse sent me a couple of different ideas. I did a little bit of digging myself into these, and we're going to keep this a pretty light conversation and we're going really with very minimal script, minimal script for today's episode.

00:06:06:20 - 00:06:27:03

Nick

Everybody. So with that being said of Jesse and I go a little off the rails, you know why? But I think it should give us really a natural feel for the conversation. So Jesse, let's start off with that. The first thing that I start, or put an asterisk next to directional leadership, this is something you note is it's something you talk about very, very frequently when it comes to meeting with pharmacist.

00:06:27:05 - 00:06:28:20

Nick

What is directional leadership?

00:06:28:22 - 00:06:51:10

Jesse M

So directional leadership, this is just a framework that I use to help us understand the different ways that we lead. Oftentimes when you hear about leadership, what we the first thing that comes to mind is leading down that there are some people that are beneath us on whatever hierarchy we find ourselves in, and those are the folks that we are supposed to lead.

00:06:51:12 - 00:07:17:11

Jesse M

But that's only one of the different directions that you have. There's also leading across you have peers that you're working with and there's different types of leadership that you need to do there. But a very common topic I get is around. I really have I really serve under a leader who I struggle with, right? I have a leader who struggles and so there is a need to lead up.

00:07:17:13 - 00:07:46:00

Jesse M

So there's leading up, there's leading down, there's leading across. But then the most important direction that you lead is leading yourself because all change starts with you, right? That's you know, I wish I, I wish this was not the case. And, you know, to the listeners, when we're recording this, we can see each other. We're doing this on a video call, you know, So I'll see if we get if I get a of or a visual reaction here.

00:07:46:02 - 00:08:09:06

Jesse M

But leading ourselves can be a tough thing, can it not? You know, how many how many times do you get to the end of the day and say, Oh, I intended to get all this stuff done, but I didn't, you know, And you look back and you say, Oh, I got distracted here or waylaid there or whatever. And so what I do is I use this framework of directional leadership to say, where should we be investing our time?

00:08:09:08 - 00:08:28:07

Jesse M

Like, where should we be putting our effort in, in leading? And the framework that I give people is that you should spend 50% of your effort in leading yourself right now. Normally I do this as a quiz and I say, you know, here, here, the four different directions, put a number next to it. You know, it needs to add up to 100%.

00:08:28:08 - 00:08:49:24

Jesse M

How do you do this? I'm not going to make you go through that exercise today. I'll just go straight to the answers and say, 50% of the time you want to spend leading yourself. Second most important direction to lead is to lead up. You want to spend about 25% of your effort doing whatever you can to make life easier for your boss.

00:08:50:00 - 00:09:09:22

Jesse M

And as you think about that, I want you to think about if you make life easier for your boss, what are the downstream repercussions for that? Right. There's a lot of things that now just will well, will fall out in a much better way the next the next direction and the next most important direction to to leaders to lead across to be.

00:09:09:22 - 00:09:34:05

Jesse M

How do you lead your peers? I would say about 15% of your effort goes there. And, you know, a lot of times people can be very, very competitive with their with their peers. And sometimes you'll see somebody get promoted and, you know, there's sometimes there's hard feelings in those scenarios. And, you know, we can probably make about four episodes on scenarios like that and save that for next year, I guess.

00:09:34:05 - 00:09:59:09

Jesse M

But, you know, when it comes down to it, if you are leading well and you're when you're leading across, when new opportunities come, what's going to happen that's going to elevate you? It's going to make it very, very obvious that that, you know, are fit and deserving of the opportunities that come your way. And then what that leaves is that leaves 10% of your effort into leading down, and that may make some of our listeners scratch their head.

00:09:59:09 - 00:10:17:19

Jesse M

I know whenever, you know, as I was learning these principles, I scratched my head as well because I probably would have said, well, about 90% of my efforts should be and lead down and nothing could be further from the truth if the people that you lead see you leading yourself, if the people that you lead see you leading up and leading across.

00:10:17:24 - 00:10:35:05

Jesse M

What that's doing is that's giving them such a positive role model for how they should be conducting themselves. And it really positions them well. You know, that that the guidance that you give them is rather minimal as far as your efforts go.

00:10:35:07 - 00:11:01:20

Jesse M

Just this really makes me think there's an old philosophy quote are often referenced, often paraphrased, but it's won by Dirk Wit and Born. And the quote goes, We are the sum of the people we have ever met. You changed the tribe and the tribe changes you. So basically kind of that thought process here where any time when it comes for leadership, it it's not meant to be a one directional relationship here.

00:11:02:01 - 00:11:22:15

Nick

The concept of leading up very much plays into what you what you give, what you put into that is going to change is also a very, I would say, almost just like a personal relationship. Right. And those of us that are here, myself, Jesse David, our producer, you know, we're all folks that have spouses who have significant others.

00:11:22:17 - 00:11:55:23

Nick

Some of us have children. We certainly all have people that we call friends or close friends. And there's a part there where nothing's really going to be changing if things aren't communicated and communicated openly and honestly between both parties. And that really becomes the key part of it. But Jesse, before we go on to other questions, when when it comes to direction of leadership, something that comes to mind for me and recently I was back home in the New England area and was able to catch up with one of my college roommates who's a pharmacist, a frontline pharmacist, and was talking with him about just some of the frustrations in his current pharmacy practice.

00:11:56:00 - 00:12:14:15

Nick

He wants to make changes, but his question is, well, you know, how do I go about doing this? When when do I learn? So I'm I know this is a question that you've had come up from pharmacist before in terms of, hey, where do I make the time or what's the right way to approach those conversations with my leadership so that it can be viewed kind of honestly.

00:12:14:15 - 00:12:16:15

Nick

So I'll let you respond to that.

00:12:16:17 - 00:12:24:16

Jesse M

Let me ask so your roommate is saying, what can I do to engage my leader? Is that is that what they were asking?

00:12:24:18 - 00:12:34:00

Nick

Where how how can I do that? And essentially, when do I do that? When do I make that or how do I make that investment?

00:12:34:02 - 00:12:59:13

Jesse M

So I would say this, but, you know, this is sort of a transition from the last topic into this. Leadership is a team game. All right. So let's let's be honest, everybody on this call and everybody listening to this podcast has some limitations. Some of us have much bigger. Speaking of myself, right? Some of us have much bigger limitations than others.

00:12:59:19 - 00:13:20:21

Jesse M

There's things that that we see that other people don't. You know, I call those blind spots. You know, Nick, I don't know if you were, were you married when we did this show last year or. I know that you're not now that you're married. I'm sure I'm sure that your blind spots are pointed out a little more, a little more regularly.

00:13:20:21 - 00:13:44:07

Jesse M

And I say that jokingly here, but at least in my household, you know, my wife will point out my blind spots all the time, Right? Hey, you miss this? This is something that I see that you don't. And the fact of the matter is, is that that happens right now with your boss. Who whoever your boss is, there's things that you see that they don't.

00:13:44:08 - 00:14:06:06

Jesse M

There's things that that you see that they can't. Right. And one of the ways that you lead up is by saying, hey, this is an issue that we are encountering. Here's a potential solution for it. Now, you know, I'll tell you, you know, just personal experience that doesn't always go well. Right. You know, so some people will take that the wrong way.

00:14:06:06 - 00:14:26:23

Jesse M

And I'll just give you this as a as a story. This is this is an old story. This is a story from 15 years ago. But at the time, pharmacist providing immunizations was still a bit of a novelty. And in 2008, what you were allowed to do in one state was could be very could be dramatically different from what you could do in a neighboring state.

00:14:27:00 - 00:14:52:18

Jesse M

And we had one particular state where pharmacists could not administer shingles, vaccines. And so, you know, and just the way that Medicare was set up at the time, all these different things were going on. And I said, I, I hate opportunity leaving my store. I just I just hate having customers, patients in need come to me and not being able to solve them.

00:14:52:22 - 00:15:11:11

Jesse M

Right. And we had a couple hundred stores in this particular state. And so I went to my boss and I said, Hey, I've got an idea. I said, we can we can build a shingles vaccine for for Medicare recipients. You know, how about we do this? And we bring in a nurse and we do a clinic and we do this whole thing.

00:15:11:13 - 00:15:33:03

Jesse M

And like if it were to be possible for the for the the wind, I guess the I got I essentially got blown out of the office like that's the dumbest idea I've ever heard. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, and, and I walked out of there thinking, oh, my goodness, you know, I was just trying to do the right thing.

00:15:33:05 - 00:15:51:23

Jesse M

Now, the one of the things you have to do is you need to not take it personally. And that's you know, that that's another that's another learning is that some people are having bad days when you run into them. And in the pharmacy there's a lot of folks that come to you and they're having a bad day. I mean, is that not the case?

00:15:51:23 - 00:16:11:08

Jesse M

You know, people have just had given or people have just been given life changing news and they come to you and you know, what they need is they need they need some help and they need some hope. There's what they need. And so I took my little plan and I went back and, you know, I reworked the plan.

00:16:11:08 - 00:16:33:04

Jesse M

And a couple of weeks later, I went back into my boss's office and I said, Hey, the last time I came in here, you know, you didn't really care a whole lot for this idea. But I want to encourage you to just take another look at this, because I said, I think there's something here. And, you know, you took a look at it and he said, I think this could work.

00:16:33:06 - 00:16:48:10

Jesse M

Can you, can you get a test of it? And we did. We got a test of it and we gave we brought a nurse in and we gave about 40 shingles vaccine over the course of 4 hours. It was a remarkable success. And we were looking to scale it. And then there were there were other issues that came up after that.

00:16:48:10 - 00:17:06:07

Jesse M

But I'm just saying what what I did is I was in that scenario, it was how can I make life better for my boss, Right? How can we do something to drive sales? How can we do whatever And and grand? That's an example from 15 years ago. And there's probably a much more relevant example today. But you know what?

00:17:06:07 - 00:17:27:11

Jesse M

To anybody listening to this podcast, there's an opportunity right in front of you that you see that chances are your boss doesn't or doesn't see the same way. And, you know, I would encourage you to just to say, hey, this is what I'm seeing and I think this is a possible solution, or better yet, test the solution, especially if it's low impact, right?

00:17:27:11 - 00:17:49:19

Jesse M

That there's a number of things that you can do that that all all it takes is a little bit of of time and effort and you know and and you know try it and get a result and then and then report on that result because I think there's I think there's so much that we can do, you know, from from from the front lines.

00:17:49:21 - 00:18:35:13

Nick

Excellent. Well just let's move on to our our next topic or our next thought here. And it's it's a tangential item very much related to what we've already discussed. But one criticism, critique, one what, one negative. Perhaps when it comes to leadership, I feel like a lot of folks view leadership as just management and we've all had this experience where we have the that we have the bad boss, bad manager that isn't necessarily leading you, but is really just managing you, whether it be the sort of thing where they're not really giving you any direction or they're micromanaging you all the time or they're not going to be empathetic, We're going to have unrealistic expectations.

00:18:35:13 - 00:18:58:07

Nick

Often leadership can be viewed as a negative word or can have a negative connotation just because of bad experiences. More often than not, I find it's somewhat like online reviews where when you have a good product or you go to a good restaurant, you don't bother because, hey, you don't have anything to say about it. But when you have the bad experience, you're going to write the one star review or you're going to contact the manager.

00:18:58:11 - 00:19:17:07

Nick

So just when it relates to, you know, leadership and recognizing poor or lacking leadership, you had a particular thought about this as perhaps not something for us to just simply yell at this guy about, but how this could be viewed as an invitation for each of us. So do you want to dive into this one as well?

00:19:17:07 - 00:19:41:03

Jesse M

I do in that, you know, first of all, there is a world of difference between leadership and management. Those are they are largely different disciplines. And the phrase that I share with people as this managers maintain and leaders lead, right? Managers. What, what a manager wants to do is they want to keep things going smoothly, where they're at, what a leader wants to do.

00:19:41:03 - 00:20:04:04

Jesse M

And I'm talking with my hands here and I realize this doesn't this doesn't translate well for the podcast listener, but, you know, take your hand or you take your right hand, put it at shoulder level and in your left hand shoulder level, your manager wants to keep keep it right there. Your manager wants to keep that left hand right there, but your leader wants to take your right hand and move it from shoulder level above your head, wants to take you somewhere upstream.

00:20:04:04 - 00:20:36:19

Jesse M

Right. And you know, those are different skills. Those are different. Those are different objectives. Right? You know, the manager wants to keep things calm and the leader knows that to get somewhere better, you're going to have to mix things up. You're going to you know, there's going to be some struggle, there's going to be some strife. There's going to be there's going to be some awkwardness as you go from point A to point B, But the recognition is this, is that, you know, when you get to that point where you're you're right, hands above your head, it's a better place.

00:20:36:21 - 00:21:04:18

Jesse M

Right? That's that that's where that's that's where you want to get to. And I would tell you that as I started studying leadership, as I started to really get some of the nuance differences between management and leadership, what happened is it became very, very easy to see what I will call poor leadership around me. And it may have been good management, but it may have been poor leadership.

00:21:04:18 - 00:21:28:18

Jesse M

And I hope the audience can discern the difference. There. Now, what I what I have come to realize is that you can become very, very frustrated with poor leadership. But you know what of my mentors taught me this principle earlier this year and he was talking about judo. Now I'm by no means a master. Nick, are you are you a judo guy, Nick?

00:21:28:20 - 00:21:32:18

Nick

I watch a lot of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles growth. Okay, well, that can be extended.

00:21:32:20 - 00:21:49:18

Jesse M

Yeah, that's. Well, that's about that's about where I'm at as well. But I don't know anything about the discipline other than this is that a lot of times in the martial arts, what they'll do is they'll you'll take the attacker's momentum and you'll use it against them. Right. So instead of pushing back when somebody comes at you, you pull.

00:21:49:18 - 00:22:10:12

Jesse M

Right. And so what I've what I've done is I've tried to adjust my thinking this past year is to say where where am I really butting heads on something? And is there a way that I can sort of pull out what I'll call a judo move and reverse it? Right. And one of the things is, is that you can be sort of butting heads with what you would call poor leadership.

00:22:10:14 - 00:22:38:10

Jesse M

But really what that is, is that if we pull a judo move, that's an invitation. It's an invitation to improve our own leadership. Right. That's that's really where I have come in the last year is to is to really sort of have that become an epiphany and be like, okay, there's a struggle here. That's an invitation for me to figure out a way to do this better, that this is this is not an indictment.

00:22:38:10 - 00:22:48:23

Jesse M

This is an invitation to to improve to improve the to improve my own leadership in how I lead others and how I lead up and how I lead across. Right.

00:22:49:00 - 00:23:19:01

Nick

Yeah. So, Jess, I'm going to take us from that idea. And these are all lessons that are important for us now, important for us as pharmacists, important for us more broadly as as health care providers. This was another one of the topics that you had kind of noted. Where we are, we are in a phase where there is much change occurring in health care, some of it where some of us would consider it to be good change necessary, long overdue, but change can also be painful and there can be.

00:23:19:05 - 00:23:33:22

Nick

While there may be positive change, it can feel like sometimes we're taking one step forward and two step back two steps back. But you've had a very clear message or pharmacist about why this change and why this embracing leadership needs to happen. So what is that message?

00:23:33:24 - 00:23:54:17

Jesse M

Well, this is a message I've been I think I've been hoping somebody else would actually have the message, somebody more eloquent than myself. But I came across a phrase or I was actually on a walk earlier this year, and I said, what's the I ask myself the question, what is the hope of health care? If health care is going to get better?

00:23:54:18 - 00:24:36:00

Jesse M

Like what? What is the drawing factor for this? And I would say that anyone in any discipline within health care, I hope you answer it, that my discipline is the hope of health care. Right. We're in pharmacy here. So I'm going to tell you my perspective is, is that pharmacy and pharmacists are the hope of health care. You know, given the given the proximity that we have to the patients, given the the unique the unique relationships that we have and the impact that we can have with those patients, I absolutely believe that pharmacists are the hope of health care.

00:24:36:00 - 00:25:16:21

Jesse M

And I started writing a series of articles there. They're published online and I'm actually writing a couple right now. I think I'm up to about number 18 or 19 or something. There's there's been a number of chapters to this. But what I've realized is, is that I think pharmacists are the hope of health care. And, you know, I want to connect that just to the Juno move that I mentioned just a moment ago, in that it can be very easy, given your perspective within pharmacy, to say, oh, my goodness, pharmacy is so fragmented.

00:25:16:23 - 00:25:49:10

Jesse M

And, you know, I would I would sort of challenge you to take a judo move on that. And, you know, as opposed to pushing back against fragmented let's let's reverse that and let's let's admit that it's complex. Let's admit that pharmacy is complex and complexity calls for something with our leadership. It calls for good leadership and it calls for good leaders and, you know, I would tell you that, you know, I think we all had a wakeup call when the pandemic hit here a couple of years ago.

00:25:49:12 - 00:26:09:24

Jesse M

But I am a firm believer that there was not an organization within pharmacy all the way down to an individual store level where they looked around and they said, oh, my goodness, we're looking at a challenge when we have too many leaders here to help us navigate this challenge. Everybody was struggling and they were doing the best they knew to do at that particular time.

00:26:10:01 - 00:26:40:12

Jesse M

Right. And, you know, as we as we navigated through that, whether whether we realize it or not, our leadership skills improved. Right? We had to develop new, new leadership muscles as we went through that. And, you know, my message is that we need to be developing our leadership muscles now as we go through it, because as whatever the new challenges that come at us, we want to be better prepared for those challenges as we as we come to face them.

00:26:40:14 - 00:27:01:06

Nick

Excellent. Just so I as we were right before we were recording this show, we were going over what topics we wanted to cover because we had a lot of notes. And this one I felt just really passionate that we had to make sure to include that as sort of our final message on the main topic, because it's absolutely something that we need to reinforce with patients.

00:27:01:06 - 00:27:24:14

Nick

It's something we need to reinforce with other health care providers, and it's something that we need to hear for ourselves in the pharmacy community as well. Right? There's there there is challenges. There are challenges, excuse me without a doubt, but there are new opportunities. And we're seeing that pharmacist were stronger than what many people believe or think. And we've seen those efforts go a long way.

00:27:24:16 - 00:27:43:18

Nick

But there's still growth to be had from from that part of it. So I'm really looking forward to what we as a pharmacy community can do. It's not always going to be easy. It's not always going to be simple. But the easy things in life aren't necessarily ones that that are worthwhile either. So, Jesse, any any final message there before we get to our final kind of closing summary?

00:27:43:23 - 00:28:16:19

Jesse M

Yeah, let me just share this quote, because this is a quote that really resonated with me. It's it's a quote attributed to Saint Augustine, and it reads, Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage. Anger at the way things are encouraged to see that they do not remain as they are. And, you know, I just share that on this message of hope that, you know, we need to be angry, that it's okay to be angry with some of the things that are going on.

00:28:16:19 - 00:28:39:20

Jesse M

And I know a lot of our colleagues out there are angry and frustrated and burn out. But let's let's not miss the other emotion that we need to be tapped into. And that's courage, right? We need to be tapped into courage. And we have so much more autonomy and an agency to impact things where we are right now than what we probably realize.

00:28:39:22 - 00:29:02:20

Jesse M

And, you know, those those are things that did not come naturally to me. And they may not come naturally to you, Listener, but, you know, I would I would just share that there's a number of things that that we all can do to improve our leadership, to move things forward and, you know, to harness anger and courage now.

00:29:02:22 - 00:29:27:01

Jesse M

And just one one wrap up thought with that, Nick, if I may, is that, you know, emotions and really I've come to the conclusion that they just are they're not good or bad. Courage is not necessarily good or bad. Right. You could have courage and, you know, run into traffic. And that really we would call that foolishness. And hindsight's right.

00:29:27:03 - 00:29:53:13

Jesse M

But, you know, the the emotions are to get us moving. It's to give us energy. Right. And the thing is, is that we need to be angry, but we don't we don't want to get stuck in being angry. And I think that's that's a word of caution that I would just give, because that that seems to be an all too prevalent theme that I encountered today is there are a lot of people who are angry and it's okay to be angry.

00:29:53:13 - 00:30:04:12

Jesse M

And you are you are probably right to be angry. The word of caution I would give is don't get stuck there. Don't get stuck there. You know, use that courage. Use the courage.

00:30:04:14 - 00:30:41:08

Nick

Not just at the at the risk of going down a philosophical rabbit hole or rabbit hole on too many pop culture references that you and I can make related to Marvel or Star Wars Star Wars characters. On that note, because that that is something you and I can discuss, but we'll save that for another podcast. I do want us to wrap up, but you know, as a listener of recent episodes of the show, that will typically throw in some questions at the end, but before before we get to that part here, I want to note for our listeners again, Jesse here shared just some of his many thoughts as it relates to leadership, directional leadership,

00:30:41:08 - 00:31:13:01

Nick

hope listening, and what we really need to do to to be the act of change in this tumultuous landscape, both in the health care sector, but also just for each and every single one of us. So again, check out Keystone Pharmacy insights. Make sure you follow Jesse on LinkedIn as well for more of this kind of information. I know Jesse does speaking engagements and is very forward with really helping to elevate pharmacists and pharmacists, but the entire pharmacy team and those that may as well go to support pharmacists.

00:31:13:01 - 00:31:22:24

Nick

So definitely be sure to check this stuff out. But Jesse, before we go, I've got a couple rapid fire questions, and these are different from what we've used previously on the show.

00:31:22:24 - 00:31:31:21

Nick

So you for this, I probably not be ready to edit this because no telling what's going to come out of my mouth. So.

All right. Well, Jesse, first question. What are you most thankful for, being a pharmacist?

00:31:39:12 - 00:32:09:21

Jesse M

You know what I'm most thankful for? That's that's an excellent question. I am thankful for the impact that we can have on so many people. But I'm also I'm also, you know, where I am in my career right now is I'm thankful for the opportunity and the privilege to help elevate pharmacists. Because when you help elevate when you help elevate somebody in their leadership, it is it's a high unlike anything I can describe.

00:32:09:23 - 00:32:38:12

Jesse M

I you know, when somebody comes back and they say just, you know, thank you so much. Things are a thousand, 1,000% better. Right. You know, it's just that is something that I guess I would put it in the category of significance. It's it's not success. It's significance. And being able to see an impact that that you don't just have directly, but you know, that it pays dividends down the road.

00:32:38:14 - 00:32:45:01

Nick

I think that's something that I'm I'm very thankful to be able to see that. And I don't know that would.

00:32:45:03 - 00:33:06:02

Nick

Affect that message. Jesse Now, this next question is one that I specially crafted for you. I realized I may have to modify it a little bit for for other guests as we have them on the show. But what superhero or otherwise fictional character would you want? What superhero fictional character would you want to work with as a pharmacist?

00:33:06:04 - 00:33:32:10

Jesse M

What? Oh, well, you know, like, we can go way down the rabbit hole here. But I love the stories where Booster Gold and Blue Beetle have to have have to run a fast food joint in Hades. Those those are some of my favorite stories. But, you know, I think it'd be interesting to work in a pharmacy with with The Flash.

00:33:32:12 - 00:33:48:16

Jesse M

You know, that for for all the things that are going on and all the running around that you get to do, you know that that would be one that that, that I would look at as a sort of a knee jerk reaction. I really I'm going to have to probably revise this answer.

00:33:48:18 - 00:33:52:11

Jesse M

That's that's that's well, that's why I'm back on the show again, I guess.

00:33:52:11 - 00:33:59:11

Jesse M

I guess. But yeah, my, my, my first thing is, hey, can I, can I have a pair of fast hands to help with that?

00:33:59:13 - 00:34:17:12

Nick

Yeah. The Flash is also very witty. That's one thing that's been pretty consistent. Quick, quick wit a lot of jokes that bits of his personality. So especially when a very stressful environment at times that can get a little bit grating when you have someone who's always trying to, you know, crack jokes but that can also be very much a stress reliever that's that's needed.

00:34:17:12 - 00:34:30:22

Nick

So when you said that, that was the other place where my mind. Jesse Next question. What's one personal recommendation for living a good, healthy and happy life?

00:34:30:24 - 00:34:58:08

Jesse M

What's one I tell you? I think I think it goes back to the directional leadership, is that you really need to work harder on yourself than anything else. And maybe that's just testimony to where I am right now. But, you know, if if I'm going to be healthy, that's hard work on myself. That's making good choices, that's getting some exercise, that's doing those things.

00:34:58:08 - 00:35:26:12

Jesse M

That's that's stimulating my mind. It's getting me to think in different ways. But, you know, I would say it was that was advice that Jim Brown gave me years ago. And he said, Work harder on yourself than you do at your job. Right. And that is that is very, very wise counsel. And in the in in the daily stresses and all the things that the distractions that you have going on.

00:35:26:18 - 00:35:40:16

Jesse M

And it can be so easy to fall out of that but work hard on yourself is the is the best advice I would give for that. And it's it's advice that has paid huge dividends to me already.

00:35:40:18 - 00:35:56:16

Nick

All right, Jess, last question here for you. In this section, this one's a bit of an oddball, I understand, but what game show or reality TV show do you think you could win? Or maybe not? Do you think you would have the most fun on as a contestant?

00:35:56:18 - 00:36:25:23

Jesse M

Oh, that's a really good one. I'm afraid that I don't know enough reality TV shows right now. What what came to mind as you started that question and said game show was Family Feud? I just think especially Family Feud with Steve Harvey, that just seems to be such a good time. But I would tell you that in my league, if I can just connect a leadership story to this, I, I was at a conference.

00:36:25:23 - 00:36:45:09

Jesse M

It was a it was a PQA conference and it's probably been ten years ago or more now. And keynote speaker came out and he said, How many of you work for a company that has core values? And there were 500, about 500 people in the room, and 500 hands went high in the air. And then the next question he asked, as he said, How many of you know your core values?

00:36:45:11 - 00:37:12:13

Jesse M

Every hand in the room came down and you were probably at that. You may remember that. But that just sort of hit me. It's like, wow, you know, I'm reasonably sure my company has core values, but I don't know what they are. And so I started studying core values. And I will tell you, they changed they changed my life for the better because it simplified the decision making process because it gave me a filter on this is this is how we value things.

00:37:12:15 - 00:37:29:19

Jesse M

But what I did is I had the entire clinical team and it was about this time, it was the week before Thanksgiving. You know, we're recording this in November, but it was about the week before Thanksgiving and there were about 25 people on the team, if memory serves. And what I did is I divide the room in half.

00:37:30:00 - 00:37:52:24

Jesse M

And I had about, you know, 12 people or 12 or 13 people on each side. And I said, hey, you know, we're going to play Family Feud name, name a core value. And I'm not really proud of the results that we had that day because we went through and after 25 people, each took one shot. We only named one core value correctly.

00:37:53:01 - 00:38:14:16

Jesse M

But what that was, is that was a starting place for us. And from there, you know, we started we started just reciting the core values at each team meeting. And it it simplified so many things. It made, Oh, what do you think we should do with this situation? You would say, Well, according to this core value, this is what we should do.

00:38:14:22 - 00:38:33:12

Jesse M

And it was like, obvious, right? Let's do that. And you knew you had it and you knew it was the right thing to do and you knew you would have buy in from other people because you could frame it in that way. But Family Feud, I guess it would. And I apologize. I don't know that I know too many other game shows out there, too to be able to use.

00:38:33:12 - 00:38:40:03

Jesse M

But that but that's that's one that I actually I actually used to my own nefarious ends back in the day.

00:38:40:05 - 00:38:56:14

Nick

That's fine just and this is one as I put together some of these questions wanted to kind of change them up, keep things fresh. I had originally, you know, put together this question as as game show. And my my wife brought it up just to kind of say, well, hey, that's going to play well with like you and pharmacists that are older than you.

00:38:56:14 - 00:39:12:22

Nick

But what about for, you know, the young ones or the pharmacy students, that sort of thing? And that was so I just I had that question. I do not know. I would not be good for the reality TV part of it either. I would probably go family as well. So but with that, just want to make sure that we wrap up here.

00:39:12:22 - 00:39:23:23

Nick

Really appreciate having you on the show. I know I referenced a couple of places where people can find you online or contact you, but do you want to just, you know, kind of know website how people can find you, contact, email, etc..

00:39:24:04 - 00:39:55:09

Jesse M

The the best place to connect with me right now is on LinkedIn. So if you go on LinkedIn, Jesse McCullough, you can find me there. Maybe you can share my contact whenever this goes out, whenever this podcast is released, but that's the best place to connect. Welcome. I follow and you know, I try to share stuff on there regularly, just different ideas, things to try to stretch you and maybe to get you think about something a little bit different.

00:39:55:11 - 00:40:23:13

Jesse M

And, you know, that's, that's where we go. For anybody that's interested, I do leadership training. So if you you know, if you've never gone through any type of formal leadership training, reach out to me. We'll get something scheduled. We can do this one on one. We can do this in group settings, which is something where, you know, a lot of times you just do what somebody has done before you and you know, you're just doing something that's going to keep getting the same old results.

00:40:23:13 - 00:40:48:19

Jesse M

Right. And if you can if you can apply the appropriate rules to your leadership, you can be much more impactful. And I can you know, I can tell you that's been my experience so far as well. But yeah, that's that's where we are. And I wish everybody well. I wish for a better future for all of us. And I know that that will happen as we all improve our leadership skills.

00:40:48:21 - 00:41:10:02

Nick

Jesse, thank you again. Always a pleasure to have you back on the show as one of the along with myself and David original creators collaborators of the Quality Corner show. So I'm I'm still very proud that we're still running this thing and that you and I get to do this on at least an annual basis. So folks, be prepared roughly this time next year, if not earlier, if not sooner.

00:41:10:02 - 00:41:29:23

Nick

Jesse and I and David, we could we could do this all day as Captain America would say. That might give you some thought into who I would choose for the superhero pharmacist sort of thing. But Jesse, again, thank you, my friend. Great to have you here. But for our audience that is going to wrap up today's show. So we thank you for listening to another episode of The Quality Corner Show.

00:41:30:00 - 00:41:34:07

Nick

But before we go, we have one final message from the PQS Team.

00:41:34:09 - 00:41:55:22

Outro

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00:41:55:24 - 00:42:18:03

Outro

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