185. CFO Stories: Mastering the Art of CFO Communication with Jason Godley

In this episode of CFO 4.0, host Hannah Munro is joined by Jason Godley, CFO of Xactly Corp. as they the critical soft skills necessary for successful CFOs. Exploring how effective communication and strategic thinking are key to driving business success. Jason shares insights from his extensive career, offering valuable advice for both aspiring and seasoned CFOs.

Key Discussion Points:

• Importance of clear and succinct communication with boards and CEOs
• Strategies for presenting complex decisions and balancing risks
• Adapting communication styles for different CEO personalities
• Techniques for managing challenging board dynamics and building relationships
• Engaging employees and explaining financial concepts in relatable terms

Links mentioned: 

• Jason’s Linkedin 
• Learn more about Xactly
• Jason’s Book Recommendation: Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know by Adam Grant

• Explore other CFO 4.0 Podcast episodes here.
• Subscribe to our Podcast!

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance. The CFO role is changing rapidly, moving from cost controller to strategic visionary, and with every change comes opportunity. We are here to help you take advantage of this transition to win at work, drive your career forwards and lead with confidence. To win at work, drive your career forwards and lead with confidence. Join Hannah Munro, managing Director of ITAS, a financial transformation consultancy, as she interviews key experts to give you real-world advice and guidance on how to transform your processes, people and data. Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance.

Speaker 2: 0:48

Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. As usual, I'm your host, han Munro, and with me today is Jason Codley from CFO at ExactlyCore. So welcome, jason, great to have you on the show.

Speaker 3: 1:01

Thank you, glad to be here.

Speaker 2: 1:02

So today we're going to talk a little bit about the softer skills around being a CFO Because, as we know pre this conversation, that's where we said you think is the most important area for a CFO. But before we do that, just tell me a little bit about your background. How did you end up exactly?

Speaker 3: 1:22

Sure. So I would say my career spans four chapters and I think all of them have served me well in terms of the CFO role and I think the thread of the soft skills I think will come through. So I'd say chapter one so I grew up on a working cattle ranch in Wyoming, which is a state with like 450,000 people. So there are clearly the hard work. You know we ran cattle but early age my father would put me to work on a tractor, on a horse, so I was out there independent, and this is before cell phones and stuff. So I had to quickly learn how to make decisions on my own as like a, you know, a teenager. So I think that has helped me over time think about decision making and then also, as we think, about communicating decisions with people. And then chapter two I spent six years with PricewaterhouseCoopers.

Speaker 3: 2:17

Like a lot of CFOs start their careers in public accounting, I spent three years in Denver, colorado, and then three years actually in Paris, france, working on with foreign companies doing a bunch of technical US GAAP, sec, financial reporting type things. I think they're on the communication front. So thing one is I was working in French, so that's a challenge in and of itself like doing business in a foreign language, different culture, I think, opened my eyes to, I would say, seeing different ways of communicating literally and then also different ways of approaching problem solving uh, through living in europe, uh, which was quite interesting. And then chapter three is I went to business school and then chapter four well, I went to business school and then I went to so three and forest business school because I knew I wanted to go into cfo and I spent all my time in accounting and I'd seen when living in europe there's this other side of the world called finance and deals and valuation. I kind of want to go with those guys.

Speaker 3: 3:30

So I went to business school and then found myself working on Wall Street in Palo Alto, california, for about seven years doing mergers and acquisitions and IPOs for enterprise technology companies. So that experience, back to the communication, I think helped me learn how to communicate clearly and succinctly, sometimes arcane topics to sophisticated stakeholders being board members or CEOs or CFOs, in a manner that is digestible but also like they can take action from. And then after that, for the last 10 years I have been, you know, private equity backed CFO, and this is the fourth company I'm working for here at Exactly, and I've been here about 18 months.

Speaker 2: 4:16

So let's explore some of those topics. You talked there about the importance of communicating succinctly, particularly to you know sort of high profile stakeholders like CEO and the board Tell me a little bit about that specifically. What are kind of the secrets to success, to doing that well?

Speaker 3: 4:37

So that's a good question, let's break. I would say there are three things, and boards and CEOs can be different. So it is knowing the audience and knowing and this comes with like, what is the mindset of the board or the, in this case, the CEO, because sometimes, a lot of the time, they just want to know the answer and back it up with some facts and then move on, but sometimes more, I should say, controversial or multi-threaded topics that may transcend sales strategy, marketing finance, that are different domains that the CFO is trying to pull together to make a point. I will often zoom out and provide context as to even how I got this topic to begin with. It might tie it back to the last board, meaning we talked about sales marketing efficiency, which pulls together a lot of different functions.

Speaker 3: 5:44

I was thinking about that and that I might bring in like details from different functions to kind of help make the point. So I think it's context setting in one instance to almost not win the hearts and minds, but so they. The listener is understanding where you're coming from and then through that too, it is the CFO and I've said this before is a bit like Switzerland. The board, the CEO, kind of looks at you as the independent perspective on things. So making sure that you communicate in a manner that is clear and expresses trade-offs in things I often talk about this notion around describing things Most things actually can be described in shades of gray.

Speaker 3: 6:37

So I think the prototypical and I was this way as a younger CFO is to be more black and white and binary, yes and no. The real world is there are certainly lines you don't cross. At the same time, there are a lot of things as a CFO commercial or otherwise that you want to be able to explain the trade-offs to a board or a CEO to get to a right business decision which may have some risk to it, right, but we're running a business, we're not running a risk department, if you will. So that's a couple of things I think about.

Speaker 2: 7:14

So tell us more about the shades of grey. As a CFO, obviously you're responsible for ensuring the financial and I guess the risk profile of the organization. How do you help the CEO and I guess that's the risk profile of the organization how do you help the CEO and the board make they communicate those decisions, you know, in a way that allows them to make the right, the right choice see, I'm trying to think of a good, a good example around, so you may have.

Speaker 3: 7:43

I will describe. Sometimes I will look. There's two doors. We have this decision around something. There's door number one, which is risk-free. Nothing's going to happen and I can list out the pros and cons of door number one. Door number two has also pros and cons, Like, behind door number two is a couple of grenades right, and I've used this analogy before. Hey, CEO, I want you to know that there are two grenades behind the door. That said, we know they're there. We can mitigate risk around those grenades. So I'm not suggesting like we can take the easy path to door number one, but door number two may actually be better for the business long term. We just need to acknowledge that there are a couple of grenades behind the door and we are going to navigate those together as an organization to mitigate those risks. And then it's like a fluid conversation that drags the stakeholder, in this case the CEO, into this conversation around balancing the pros and cons of something versus something being black and white.

Speaker 2: 8:53

That makes sense makes perfect sense and, and I guess very often, if you look at the profile of cfos, they have quite a commonality with a lot of CFOs. They have the same communication style very well. They have similar profiles as individuals, but you can very often get different communication styles um within that. So when you've worked with multiple, you know different CFO CEOs. How have you changed or adapted your style to suit them as an individual versus? You know maybe, or do you? Do you use the same style with all of them?

Speaker 3: 9:29

It's, it depends on the CEO, and so I would say the difference is founder CEOs versus professional CEOs, and I've worked for both, because rightfully so. Like the founders, the individual who was writing the first check, and like it's their, it is their, it is their thing, so being very sensitive to. So, while this, while the founder CEO wants to hear what's not working, it's also a bit like you're criticizing their kid, right? So they want the criticism, but not the criticism. So how do you bring the individual along for the ride, which is this hey, I know the decision you made, probably four years ago. Here's what you were probably thinking right, get the buy-in to the decision, do you agree? Here's how the world's probably changed. Yes, I'm wondering if we do something differently. That's the founder CEO, professional CEO, like man, this thing's been broken, this thing's broken, can we fix it please? And like, yes, go fix it, it's just a different it's just a different.

Speaker 3: 10:34

you know it's just a different. But it is so important to know that because otherwise you can get bogged down into get bogged down into wasted cycles, with anybody beyond, like anybody right, not zooming out and say what am I solving for what is important to the individual? How do I communicate the right things at the right time? If one is not very intentional about that, you can lose a lot of cycles around things getting done and I think too, over time I have found that because most of the times I'm in shades of gray with my teams. We just got off a senior staff call and I was. There was some topic and I was shades of gray. There are times when I am black and white and when that comes out people are like oh okay, Like it's not even a debate, because they know I don't often do that. It means that's a strong position that I'm taking.

Speaker 2: 11:29

That's an interesting piece, almost saving the black and white for when you really need it versus using it all the time.

Speaker 3: 11:37

So finding that balance between the two, and you can still get, even though there are times when I can see the answer is we should not go through door number two. Right, I will still present door number one and door number two, but provide sufficient instead of sugar grenades. There's eight. I will provide sufficient evidence to sway the conversation one way or the other, but it it this? The whoever I'm communicating with, though, gets bought into this, but they're part of the process. Versus me saying there's no way we're going through door number two because then it's a, then it's a fight over why not door number two, versus describing the trade-off between the two.

Speaker 2: 12:30

And have you ever been in a situation where you put forward the evidence for door number two, the 10 grenades that were behind it, and the CEO or the board decided they still wanted to go through?

Speaker 3: 12:38

Yes, yeah, look, unless it's illegal, like right, there's the, there's the ethical line, the accounting rules and legal stuff that obviously don't cross. But at that point in time, as long as because my job is to make sure that the CEO and the board does not understand my biggest concern in those situations is that they're not seeing their grenades. As long as they see their grenades and understand their grenades and want to go through the door, I'm totally fine with that. Right, because we've, because we've, we've collectively and knowingly underwritten risk. What is difficult is unknowingly underwriting risk. That's what gives me heartburn. So I will spend a lot of time making sure that we are crystal clear behind what's door number two, and if we're all nodding and saying, yes, we understand, then let's go to the number two and I'll get there.

Speaker 2: 13:37

And obviously we use the phrase very often that a CFO is the right hand man of CEO or woman, as the case may be being politically correct. But in that instance, how do you manage helping the CEO tell their narrative to the board while still making sure that you're giving the board the information that they need around the decisions that are being made?

Speaker 3: 14:04

In other words, maintaining this independent, the board's independent perspective of the CFO. While also, I think that is a art and science, I think it is like most of the time in my current situation, the CEO and I are similar communicators, so we he appreciates, I think, the nuance of things and also the black and white thing, so I will help, I will help to your point, help him, you know, frame topics in the context of Financial performance, and I think we're sufficiently transparent with our boards now that, like there's not going to be an inconsistency between what he is saying in the independent perspective. What I will do, though, is, in the instance where I know that there could be one, I will verbally process that to a board member. Oh, by the way, you're going to hear Arnav, who's my CEO. He's going to, he's got.

Speaker 3: 15:14

He has a slightly different take on this. He's going to think about this way. I'm not sure I agree with him. Here's where I think it's over here, but, collectively, what matters is we are having the conversation about the right topic. So I maintain independence of church and state, if you will, around having an independent perspective by calling it out that there is a bid-ask spread between what CEO is saying and what I'm saying and we talked obviously about the fact that, um, you know, there's there's different stakeholders that have different perspectives.

Speaker 2: 15:47

So, within a board, how? Do you? How do you go about assessing the communication styles that you should use as a board, because obviously every board's slightly different in terms of the individuals and and the makeup. How? How do you manage that and do you have any? You know secrets to success when it comes to getting the board on side.

Speaker 3: 16:08

That's a good question. I would say it is being mindful of, like watching the dynamic in the boardroom around. Is there a topic with a degree of energy? Usually it can be positive, it can be negative, like body language, tone of voice around a topic, and then, and then you can understand the degree with which, like if people are very frustrated about something and I jump in and say, hey, wait, but there's this great thing over here that's going to fall flat, it is meeting. It is then understanding the energy level, let's say it's a problem that they're talking about, it is. It is inserting what I have to say and meeting them where they are with their level of emotion. In other words, I'm not like hey but wait, wait, there's this cool

Speaker 3: 17:15

thing. I mean look, it's totally understandable that there's frustration around this problem. Like it makes complete sense to me that you know board board member A, board member B and CEO. It's totally understandable that there's frustration at the board level around this. Like, I totally get it. If I'm you, I'd be feeling the same thing. I'm wondering, though is there more part of the story? And then bring in some extra information that may change their perspective? And then bring in some extra information that may change their perspective?

Speaker 3: 17:43

That's a very different approach to the dynamic than interjecting, kind of not pretending like what they're saying is not real, and then introducing new information, because then you're like oh, jason's part of the conversation. He's compassionate to the thing we're talking about. Yours are open. Now let's bring in more information. That's not easy to do, and, like I'm no, by no means a pro at it, but over time I've learned to watch the room, if you will, and make sure that you know in. Another example is sometimes I've been at board readings where I was supposed to talk for 45 minutes and we were running out of time. Like, look, I don't think I have anything that's necessary to say. I could just use five minutes in the end. Okay, like. So it's like reading the room. I don't need to talk. Fine, we can talk about some other topic. I'll give the five important things at the end and away you go.

Speaker 2: 18:34

So it's not feeling also compelled to have a perspective if you don't need to have one to have a perspective if you don't need to have one, and and I guess that in terms of, like you say, reading the room, that's obviously an in the moment piece. So how do you work with your ceo to when you see things and spot things to, to almost help him understand, or her understand, where you're going with things, because obviously there's a bit of a you're reacting, aren't you, to what is there. So how much of what you do in a board meeting is prepped and to the clear agenda, and how much is, like you say, reading the room and adapting your style to what's in front of you?

Speaker 3: 19:21

to what's in front of you. So the I don't. I mean we have an agenda, we have not an agenda, but like we have the agenda topics we're going through that we stay on. That we generally stay on. I think a lot of, because I've spent a lot of time with our CEO. He probably knows what I'm going to, where I'm going to go with something.

Speaker 3: 19:41

But I will, I will connect usually I will connect in the conversation to a conversation that he and I have had. So he's like, oh, I know where he's going with this like, hey, we have a competitor. Hey, remember, I'll get. Hey, we it's interesting because we are not at this conversation about x competitor last week. Here's what we're thinking about. Then he knows where I'm going. The board, like you know, like accuse him. He knows where I'm going. And then it becomes more natural versus hey, surprise, I'm going to talk about something. So I try to throw out some nuggets of stuff so people know where I'm headed.

Speaker 2: 20:24

Some clues, some little breadcrumbs on the way to a conversation. Yes exactly Brilliant and I guess if you think back to your sort of birthdays working with the CEO and the boards and that piece, were there any sort of key learnings that you had sort of I guess you know. Key learnings that you had sort of I guess you know um war, war wounds or war stories from your early days as a CFO that helped you sort of develop this, um, these skills and these communication capabilities yeah.

Speaker 3: 20:54

So I would say, generally speaking, early days as a CFO I felt like I was running the finance department. It's like you have finance and accounting and you're like off on the sidelines doing the finance stuff and it's hard. At the end of the day you're actually running a business. So it's difficult, I think, to get mine to share, if you will, from board CEO other stakeholders. If you're just a no CFO person in the corner who's like running the budget, right, you have to do that. But I think later I learned in my last job I was actually was president, so I was able to run a lot more than just finance. I learned a lot about the other functions and now spend a lot of my time.

Speaker 3: 21:45

I'm almost like water, very fluid, and spending a lot of my time all over the in the business, around the business, talking to people, and I think people have learned that I can have the finance part of me and then the other part of me. So I think collectively getting out of my corner, spending time with everybody builds the trust and confidence that when you do have a conversation, it is informed, based on the lens of marketing, sales and product, because you've spent time with them, versus the lens of the budget, but that takes investment of time to be with others. Again, this the perception is that it happened here. Is that the I'm the black and white guy, right, yes, you know, jason's the no person because he's the cfo. But only through right interacting with them they realize that that's not the case. I'm a problem solver in the context of what we're trying to solve for vis-a-vis our investment thesis.

Speaker 2: 22:46

And you talked a lot about the board as a whole and sort of reading the room.

Speaker 3: 22:52

Yes.

Speaker 2: 22:53

How much time, when you work with a new organization, do you invest in actually getting to know the board outside of the, I guess, the formal meetings.

Speaker 3: 23:09

So that's an interesting question. I think it is important to have relationship with the board. So I don't know if my way works. I push in it. So I don't know if my way works. I'm not a, I don't feel the world through like a political lens. I don't feel like I need to go like talk all the board members and like make sure that like I don't, that's not a thing that I think about it.

Speaker 3: 23:35

For us it happens organically because we have I have investor, I have, you know, I have Vista equity, which is a you know lovely private equity firm. We own 80 software companies. Our board's fantastic. They're very involved. I'm on call with them all the time. So I think through that experience they get to know me, I get to know them. We have executive offsites with them, we have training programs. So I think, organically, that time spent with them outside the boardroom for me, in just a normal human being perspective, has, for me personally, been my style to approach, to building relationships with them. And it depends on the board. Some some, you know, some boards don't. Individuals are less interested in having, you know, different types of relationships and that's fine. You respect that and it is what it is.

Speaker 2: 24:24

And I guess you know from a communication perspective, has there been any particularly challenging boards that you've worked with over the years where you thought, oh, that was a tough board and I guess, how did you get round it? How did you get them on site?

Speaker 3: 24:40

Yeah, I mean, I've had plenty of tough board meetings. It is look, I talk about the shades of gray. At the same time I'm also a cfo and I'm not shy. So when there's a fierce conversation like an important topic, it is also incumbent upon me and the CEO to not back down if we feel strongly about something. And again, you have to be diplomatic about it and you need to bring data and be prepared and all those things. But I think the most sophisticated boards expect, if management team has a different perspective, to duke it out, because I think we are doing a disservice to the investment thesis if we are not doing that. And if we duke it out at the end and the board's like, hey, we've got to do this thing, then we'll go do it. But we owe it to them to have a fierce conversation around the topic at hand and you use the phrase fierce conversation and that's in, yes, uh.

Speaker 2: 25:49

How do you approach, I guess, where there are conflicting views? Have you got any sort of tips or hints for people that are coming in like they know they're going into a challenging or fierce conversation? How do you do it in a way that is is is finding the balance, I guess, on both sides is allowing them to be heard but also, you know, getting your point across so.

Speaker 3: 26:12

So, as opposed to so oftentimes, I will use questions like of natural curiosity versus no, you're wrong. We should do like here's my facts, here's your facts, it will be well. How do you so? Board member A has a strong opinion about something, so how do you weigh? I totally understand what you're saying.

Speaker 3: 26:41

What's going through my mind is a couple of things. I feel like there's some pros and cons. Understand what you're saying. What's going through my mind is a couple of things. I feel like there's some pros and cons to what you're saying. How would you think about those? Hmm, right, it cracks the door a bit. That's really interesting. And there's this other fact. I'm wondering how that might implicate the situation.

Speaker 3: 26:57

So it's like this curious questioning process and clearly they're like hey, I disagree with you and here's why. But it's inter, it's, it's intermixing. Crack the door. Oh, there's maybe a different view here. Insert new facts.

Speaker 3: 27:12

Okay, to move the conversation versus it being this back and forth, because I think dragging. There's an interesting science behind this. Think again by adam grant dragging people into shades of gray. Because our perceptions are that everything is like this way or that way. Well, it's all about trade-offs. So how do we make sure we are uncovering all of the trade-offs implicit in the decision that we are collectively understanding those. Because, ultimately, what you're then figuring out is people are waiting and you get people, and you get folks to verbally process what they probably aren't saying. They're waiting.

Speaker 3: 27:49

The risk Like, say, you and I have two things we're thinking about. We may have the exact same understanding of the facts, but you may be you're saying no, we don't want to do that. I'm saying no, we should do that, but you may be weighting a risk factor different than I am. So it's through the questioning we can identify oh, your risk factor, you think, is way worse than my risk factor, and then through that we can then debate the real topic, which is the risk factor, versus the topic we're debating, which is the wrong topic. We should be discussing the risk factor, but only through I think, just curious engaging around what is underlying the point, do you get to actually solving the right problem?

Speaker 2: 28:29

I love that. That's it. Yeah, you're, almost you're, you're, you're removing, I guess, the barrier and the blocker and and changing it from that sort of like. You say that that's smashing up against each other, you versus me to. Uh, let's just turn it around and just see if there's there's a commonality here.

Speaker 3: 28:49

Yes, yes, and also acknowledging, let's say, you say three things, two of which I agree with, one, I don't. You make two really good points, re-articulate them. So you're like oh, jason heard me, he thinks I'm smart, he understood what I said and I can say but have you thought about this smart? You understood what I said and I can say but have you thought about this, if you say three things and I just say, well, what about that? You're maybe less inclined to pay attention.

Speaker 2: 29:19

One of the hardest things, I think, is actually putting into words what it means to work with myself and the team here at ITAS, because not only are we a financial transformation consultancy, but we do it using Sage technology. So rather than me tell you how awesome we are, let me introduce one of our customers.

Speaker 4: 29:38

I'd recommend ITAS as a Sage partner, not only because of their knowledge that they have on the product itself intact, but also their friendly and professional approach to the whole project. They've been incredibly flexible throughout the process, but also challenging us as a customer to really think about what it is that we're after and ensuring that Intact was actually the correct solution for us to meet our needs, which was really refreshing, rather than feeling we're just being sold a product that they offer. We've got on really well with the whole team. They've been hugely approachable, helpful throughout the whole process, really putting it as an ease, if anything we kind of felt we were struggling with or difficult. It really helps us to understand some of the complexities with the new system that's different to other finance systems, things that we've just never come across before, like the new dimensions and understanding how that actually works.

Speaker 2: 30:40

Understood. So yeah, focusing on acknowledgement as much as anything else, so helping them understand they've been heard.

Speaker 3: 30:48

Sorry, that works outside the board too right, like even with my. So I love coaching and mentoring the team, so even even now they will come with me like, hey, what do you, what do you like? Just time for Jason to make a decision on something Like a lot of these. I don't need to make that decision, so I'm like well, how do you think about the decision? How would you think about the pros and cons? So I go through the same thing to lead them through my own logic and they're able to learn from me and then get to the answer on the round. It would be easy, for it takes time. It would be easy for me to say no, go do door number two, but they're not going to learn anything. They're going to keep coming to me for decisions versus giving them the framework to think about. On the round.

Speaker 2: 31:34

Yeah, the coaching and mentoring versus the giving the answers is always a big piece. And and talking of obviously expanding communication outside of the ceo and the board, yes tell me a little bit about how you approach communication with other. You know other stakeholders at the executive level within the business, so you talked about sales of marketing earlier. How you know, how do you see a cfo working successfully with with other stakeholders?

Speaker 3: 31:57

I think it is the genuine curiosity in their functions and what it is to keep some up at night. It's not a conversation around spending or budgets or ROI. It's like hey, jen, in marketing, what do you worry about? Because, at the end of the day, the CFO's job is also. It's not about not spending, it's about spending on the right things. So if marketing is like, hey, I really found this nugget of stuff I'd love to go do, maybe we can find some money for that. Eyes light up right, because this notion that it's just like stuck is not most of the time is not true, because you can either reallocate funding or, if there's really interesting stuff, you need to go back to your investor base and say, look, we need to spend X more than the plan this year because we have this new idea. And most of times, rational minds prevail like, hey, that's fantastic, we should go do that. We're running. We're not running a budget, we're running a business that happens to have a budget yeah, like it's not flip-flop, it's not flip-flopped?

Speaker 2: 33:09

yeah, like it's not flip-flop it's not flip-flopped, yeah, that's a, that's actually. Yeah, we're running, running a business, not a budget. I love that. That is absolutely. That should be a slogan. We should uh, we should pull that one out and and I guess you know how do you, how do you effectively challenge that where you feel like it isn't something you can enable? How do you approach maybe some of those more difficult not no, maybe it is a no conversation but those darker, gray areas?

Speaker 3: 33:44

That's a very good question. So it's, I think, alignment. It's going to zoom back to the. It's going to zoom back to the. So we we spend a lot of time around alignment, around what it is that we as a company are solving for over the next one, two, three, four or five years. Like I have a sense for what the financial profile of the business looks like. I understand the levers we need to pull to get there.

Speaker 3: 34:08

I've had this lingo called the business equation, which is what are the three or four things we must inflect to drive outcomes over the next three to five year period, and everybody on the senior staff understands what the future should look like if we execute. So I will always bring that into the conversation. So, hey, sam, our CRO, I understand you want to do these three or four things. It's going to cost more money than we thought. How do you think about that in the context of the last board meeting, where we all nodded around the long-term plan? Do you think there are any implications to that? Oh, I didn't think about that, or I did think about it. And here's where I'm going to change the thing and it's going to inflect the model this way.

Speaker 3: 34:58

So it's bringing context because, rightfully so, their job and the function is not to be worried about 2027. They're trying to get stuff done this quarter. It's me and the CEO's job and the board to make sure we are connecting next quarter with 2027 and ensuring that we were having that conversation. So that's I. Usually it's a concept context, setting conversation around the master plan in the context of what we're doing right now and then, and then that opens the conversation to be like okay, how do we then make decisions through that lens to make sure we don't get off track from what we're actually solving? For If it's just, hey, no, you can't do that, it's very confusing and unfair, quite frankly. I mean, sometimes you have to do that, but if you've gotten alignment around what you are doing this year in the next three years, it is not a controversial topic Because, like, oh, of course, of course, jason's answer is going to be what it is, because it's completely internal and consistent with what we've been talking about for the last six months.

Speaker 2: 36:05

Understood, understood, and I guess we've talked about sort of other stakeholders within business and you mentioned, obviously, your current organization is P-BAC. So have you seen any differences around communication and the soft skills required from a CFO in that P-BAC space?

Speaker 3: 36:27

Yeah, I'm not sure if it's different. Well, I mean, I've always done private equity, I did one venture, so I think it's all. I think it is all pretty consistent. I would say one important communication thread we didn't touch on yet that I think is important is I spent a lot of time outside of just my senior executive team with the employees and they're also part of town halls and talking about goals and all this stuff.

Speaker 3: 37:04

Most people don't care about EBITDA, most people don't care about revenue growth. All the financing stuff we talk about, people don't generally aren't concerned with it. So my job is to still explain the financial metrics, but in language they understand. Like so, for instance, we have debt, right, like private equity-backed companies. But I will say we have a mortgage on the house. Oh, so that like it's words that people use every day. We're refinancing the mortgage. Oh, okay, cool. I'm like, hey, we're doing some weird finance term. People don't care.

Speaker 3: 37:45

I try to have the conversation framed around words that people understand and then also explain what it means to them. Hey, we're expanding internationally. Here's what this means for you. There's going to be new. I'm making stuff up, right. There's career opportunities here and there and we're doing different things right. So it's making the financial conversation, to the extent that you can, relevant to the individual, because that is what matters to them is them and their families. Clearly, the company does, but trying to make it as whatever the word salient as possible to them isn't, yeah, to them as individuals. I think it's helpful again, not always easy, but it's this mindful thing to make sure that I'm not being over jargony and explaining how these financial metrics impact their careers and livelihoods.

Speaker 2: 38:36

And you're talking a lot about, obviously, presenting particularly and you mentioned obviously things like town halls have you always been confident standing up in front of people, or is that a skill that you developed in your later career? Once you, I guess you didn't have much of a choice but to do it your later career.

Speaker 3: 38:53

Once you, I guess you didn't have a choice but to do it. I feel like I have. I feel like I've improved over time and I'm constantly improving. I don't think I can recall I mean you still get the normal anxiety right To a certain degree, but I don't. I enjoy personally speaking, public speaking. So I think for me personally it's been more, it's been less difficult, because I know it is not a easy thing to do.

Speaker 3: 39:25

It. Probably it probably is the early days. I think of it's this notion of self-efficacy which is a psychology construct, which is the belief that you can actually go do something like hey. You were like, hey, I think I can go start a podcast. But if you didn't think you could go do that or have the confidence to do like you wouldn't have never started Right.

Speaker 3: 39:47

So I think over time I've increased this belief that I can go something. Starting with living in a foreign country and speaking a foreign language, you're like, oh, I can do that, why can't I do this? So you kind of start to have these building blocks of self-efficacy, that then, with a vicarious experience which is you have your podcast now I know you're a podcast pro and then eventually you do more public speaking. In my case it just becomes a muscle that is built over time. So I think I've just progressively had a natural probably inclination coupled with practice that has gotten to me where today it's generally not something I think about, there's still the nerves, but it's not like scaring me off the stage, yeah.

Speaker 2: 40:31

Not stopping you from sleeping the night before.

Speaker 3: 40:34

No, no, that's true, no.

Speaker 2: 40:36

So we've talked about loads on this podcast. So I guess, right, new CFO coming into role, right, and they want the sort of the cheat guide to CFO communication. What are your top tips for that person coming?

Speaker 3: 40:52

in. So I'm going to the cheat guide, I think. So all I think all that we talked about is very good. I'm going to talk about some, so I'll start. I'm gonna talk about, like, one's own psychology. So I happen to be getting a master's degree in applied positive psychology right now at the University of Pennsylvania and I'm finishing that up, and that's all about what is the science of? What makes individuals and organizations thrive. Even this construct of self-efficacy is a thread within psychology, if you will.

Speaker 3: 41:33

So I think, this notion of really having one's own degree of self-regulation, which is understanding, because before I can read the room, before I can read anybody else, before I can present, before I can have a difficult conversation with an employee, if I am not crystal clear, aware of my own psychology, like viscerally like think, mindfulness, meditation, all these things viscerally understand what's going on. Why don't I want to go on this podcast, not yours, that's a bad example. Why don't I want to have this difficult conversation? Why am I worried about the conversation with the seat, like, even before you get there, what's going on, jason, to where you have this? Or why am I frustrated right now, really knowing what is going on before you even open your mouth Because that will give you a clue into what's happening. So oftentimes I know, for instance, what makes me frustrated is a values conflict. Is a values conflict. In other words, somebody may be doing something different than I would do it, or maybe going a little off kilter around something I literally will feel in my body. That's a frustrating feeling. Watching or seeing that happen and though I shouldn't be judgmental because I don't have all the story.

Speaker 3: 43:08

So, as opposed to me jumping in and saying, hey, susie, I'm frustrated because I think something's happening, I'm like mindful of oh, there's a cue, something's happening. I probably don't have all of the facts. How do I then engage the situation with a degree of knowing this about how I'm thinking about things in advance of the conversation, like it's literally slowing the entire physiology down to know what's happening and responding to it in the context of a situation versus reacting. There's a ton of neuroscience in psychology around how to do this. Uh, that I could talk for hours on, but that's if there's a secret sauce. It is spending time with self-awareness and self-regulation, emotional regulation, superpower, because things you're able to approach things with equanimity and like a degree of space and understanding that allows you to then have this ripe conversation versus oh, I'm being attacked as you're, you disagree with me, I'm the CFO, like that. There's no longer this identity thing happening. You're just going with the situation.

Speaker 2: 44:32

That was a lot was a lot, so I can stop to be honest, I think, um, as somebody that you know, um, I think that's applicable not just for cfos, but I think that's an amazing piece of advice for any new person that is going into management or leadership. You know, regardless of the role, that self-awareness, that emotional intelligence, to know not just where the other person is but where you are. And I, yeah, I would say pick, you know, picking the right moment for that conversation is one where both of you are in the right headspace to have it and and if listeners are curious about this, like I will, my default is mindfulness meditation.

Speaker 3: 45:17

In fact, I'm working on my final paper at pen. Around all the all the neuroscience of meditation that's advanced over the last 20 years. Like literally rewiring the plasticity of your brain such that what I'm talking about is a natural just a natural outcome of the process. But there are other like some people think that's crazy, which is fine, like journaling. There's a variety of things to help slow your thinking down and become more aware of this stuff.

Speaker 2: 45:45

So when you're in the line of fire, it becomes more natural, if you will, to respond versus react and I guess a bit of a random question though if you had to recommend one book for a new and inspiring cfo to read, what would it be?

Speaker 3: 46:08

oh, my goodness gracious. So I think I will come back to so adam grant, who's a wharton. He's a social behavioral scientist but he's at the wharton business school at the university of pennsylvania. He wrote a book called Think Again, which talks about this idea around shades of gray, if you will Right In understanding that there's different ways to think about things, and it also ties in this notion around not allowing your own ego or sense of self get sucked into the, into the like. You're debating the topic. You're not debating your. We're not debating my ability to be a CFO. We're debating a topic but we can get sucked into this feeling tone that I'm being attacked, which we're not being attacked. So I think it's got a nice mix of the science and art of all of that.

Speaker 2: 47:07

Love that Brilliant Well. Well, I'm gonna be honest, jason, as I keep going and keep asking you questions but I did promise you we're gonna have chapter two someday yes, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 47:18

I did promise I would finish within a reasonable amount of time, so I just want to say thank you so much for coming on, sharing both your experiences but also your knowledge that you've gained. Um some great advice in there for aspiring and existing CFOs, and if people want to learn more about yourself and Exactly where's the best place to find you, how can they connect?

Speaker 3: 47:39

Sure, so for me. I'm on LinkedIn, so you can find me, jason Godley, on LinkedIn. Or exactlycorpcom is the business that we're in here at Exactly, so we've got a lot of good stuff out there.

Speaker 2: 47:54

Amazing. Well, for anyone that is interested, I will, of course, add those links. I'll also add in the links for the book recommendation that Jason so kindly shared with us. Thank you so much, jason. It was fabulous to have you on the show and, yeah, hope to have you back someday.

Speaker 3: 48:09

I enjoyed the conversation. I'd love to come back. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 48:13

So if you've enjoyed this podcast, please don't forget to subscribe, leave us a review and if you have some questions you wish I'd asked or should ask Jason next time, then please do reach out to me personally. Jump on LinkedIn, send me a message, send me an email, hannahwinrowe at itasolutionscouk. Thanks for joining me on the CFO 4.0 podcast and we'll see you next time.

Speaker 5: 48:37

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