Jeffrey Cheng, Co-Founder of Ooosh Coworking & Catalyst Ventures

Jeffrey Cheng, Co-Founder of Ooosh Coworking & Catalyst Ventures, shares how his experience in advertising, education business, and clothes manufacturing, and curiosity had led him to launch a business tightly connected to the start-up's scene.

Transcript

spk_1:   0:09
Hello. So welcome to this new episode ofthe Grown in Asia. Our guest today is Jeffrey Chin. So Jeffrey is I mean, he has multiple activities. Yeah, I was involved in the investment is also active in the co working space business. So my first question for you, Jeff Phrase, do you fly with your own private jet off? Course not. I wish for those who will be listening to this broadcast awake amounts or years. That's care reference work. And that's something that we will discuss. Maybe more later. So different. Thank you for joining us today. Thanks for having. Can you please introduce yourself? Yeah. I shot this station.

spk_0:   0:57
Hello. I'm Jeffrey. I'm born and raised in Hong Kong. I lived in Canada for seven years on, and I was back in Hong Kong after graduating from university. And right now, 1/2 to a business is going on. Just that's ah, trying to mention I have one business in the DC area and another it's a co working space business.

spk_1:   1:22
Okay, so that keeps you active, right? Yeah. Very busy. Eso you say you were born on growing on kong? Yeah. Which age did you leave? Hong Kong

spk_0:   1:33
for right? Actually, I was separated into different faces. I was in Vancouver on my fourth grade on DH. Then I stayed there till sixth grade. And then I moved back to Hong Kong for high school for I school for high school. So I spend all my high school years in Hong Kong. Then I left and went to Toronto for university on DA S 04 years of that. And then I came back

spk_1:   2:02
after the university. After university. Yeah. So you didn't try to work us? A lot of people try to do that, right? Yeah. What? The study used to date None. You study in Toronto?

spk_0:   2:11
In Toronto? Yeah. And obviously Toronto. It's better now. I heard I haven't, you know, been back for over 10 years, so But I still have friends over there. I heard the economy is getting better. Google is moving in. So a lot ofthe new things are happening. Exciting things. It was. I think right now it's better than 10

spk_1:   2:29
years ago. So the reason you came back to Hong Kong's because you had no good opportunity in Toronto or you were missing uncle,

spk_0:   2:36
I weren't missing Hong Kong too much. But I do think there are more opportunities in Hong Kong for me. But for me, you know, I can't say

spk_1:   2:45
for everyone. Yeah. I'm generally more opportunity today in Hong Kong and in Asia than they are in some more. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so too. Okay. And where did you Where did you study?

spk_0:   2:55
I studied economics. Gonna me? Honestly, management sort ofthe final. Yeah, stuff like that. You know, Macron, microeconomics, copper financed stuff like that. But honestly, I mean, I wasn't the best student you know, from day one that happens. I've never been the best student. My major outtake from my uni life was definitely not academic self. I was more, you know, more on making friends, mourn or learning some other soft skills social skills, then really learning from, you know, my actual studying.

spk_1:   3:31
You eventually learn something. That was awful. I would say can immediately. There was something I could do was out for when you're when you started your professional life or

spk_0:   3:43
yeah, of course. So far on, honestly, I would no more How How you know, an economy runs what aspect of different angles. Look at it. What are the parameters, you know, both in a macro and micro sense. It does give me a pretty good, fundamental fuel and knowledge ofthe how things run. Um, at least I would know a bit more of accounting. I know a bit about finance saying, um, which is good? You know, a So, you know, an intro to running a business

spk_1:   4:11
about the fundamentals. Fundamentals? Exactly. Your business. Exactly. Eso you went to university at the age of 18 I guess, around around again. Any reason why you decided to study the your management finance economics? Because you add in mind and one day you will run your own business or just it was a choice by default. You're right. I do

spk_0:   4:35
have that in mind. Although it's not really I don't really have ah career goal by like before, but I do have a feeling that I will be running my own process. At some point, I will give it a try. At least Esso and I honestly, I have more interests in this field than any other. I mean, I'm not too interested in, you know, things I pulled because I initial designs or arts, so I was thinking business related things would fit me more.

spk_1:   5:05
Okay. I mean, you know, the ladies are connexions. I can ask for you age 34. 34. So we're speaking about, you know, things that you are in mine. When was 18 So that 16 years ago? Because 16 years ago, it was not that popular. Trendy fun. Cool. And now you wanna name it, qualify it to become an interpreter today. There is this trend.

spk_0:   5:29
So much term startup hasn't even been mentioned

spk_1:   5:32
yet. So you still have, You know, I mean, at that time, that's already something that you want in your mind.

spk_0:   5:36
Yeah, I think it comes from my family background. I mean, my, my my parents, they run their own business. Okay, so I was broke. I will spot up and raised by, you know, in an entrepreneurial family where my dad would usually go Price comparing everywhere are getting everywhere. Always comment on, you know, the economic, you know, economy. And he was kind of on the economy. And, you know, just so much information and theories. And, you know, comments flooded into my mind when I was young. So

spk_1:   6:14
because when you arrived, the university knew everything already.

spk_0:   6:16
I don't know everything, but I know that it seems interesting. This seems interesting, but, you know, obviously, when when I really started my own stuff is different. That was obviously different from what I thought when I was 18 so

spk_1:   6:30
yeah. Surprise. Yeah, you told him. You will tell us more about this. Yeah, and so Okay, so you you moved to Toronto for your studies. You stay there for three years. Four for four years. When you get your diploma and out of the university. Did you try to join a big cooperate? Because that's a discussion that from time to time with the people on this podcast, Is it buried too? Immediately after you study, even if you know that you want to become your own bus and and be an entrepreneur is better still to go through first experience with a big cooperating Because you will learn something or I mean, speaking too much that you answer No problem.

spk_0:   7:17
So when I graduated, it's different from what I think of it right now. Obviously, when I graduated off course, just like anybody else, I would want to go into a big corporation. you know immediately. I will think, Oh, it would be nice if I can work in an investment bank. I mean, it sounds cool. I mean, sounds prestige and makes you somewhat different.

spk_1:   7:39
A lot of people just after my studies. Investment bank. Yeah. Got it. Firm having exactly found.

spk_0:   7:47
Exactly. So. But it was all a thought because obviously, I wasn't quite qualified for it because, you know, again, my academics weren't just good enough. I wasn't spending too much time on studying, so obviously I'm not ready for it. Um, I asked around, and they were quite, you know, some of my uncles. They were quite honest with me that you might not be eligible off using to apply. So we don't waste time. You waste your time. But then I came. Teo, I know that there's another in the industry that is very interesting, which is advertising overtime. And I actually headed to an advertising agency after I graduated.

spk_1:   8:27
What did you What did you do that I first How did you find this first position? Your guy There was, you know, friends of family friends. Was it difficult to get your first job

spk_0:   8:37
again? I'll be honest. It was through a family friend. Okay. Yeah, yeah. I'll be very honest. 70. Frank. Yeah. I mean, I talked an easy way by making use of my family's network on I managed, Teo entered advertising agency working. They had clients like NTR Intel. And that's really the first. You know, first time I got in touch with you, no tech related stuff,

spk_1:   9:04
because that was the beginning. The very, very beginning of digital market. Exactly. Ferry

spk_0:   9:08
beginning a very interesting time. It was even before the transformation from traditional to teach you. So it was a little bit before, um, on them planners weren't even that popular. Okay, back then. So I was working mostly on, you know, traditional up off the line below the line campaigns where you handle, you know, TV commercials. You handle print ads, fair, traditional stuff. Um, that time in a small it was a small agency, so I learned quite a lot. You always have your hands full of work that, you know, overtime every single week, and you have to manage a lot of self. The whole structure is messy, so you just have to, you know, work on everything herself you know that Get things done. So But then right after a one year working in a small firm, I moved to one of the largest

spk_1:   10:00
firm in Hong Kong. At first, everything was messy. Meaning what? Meaning that you were in charge of doing everything. All my finding. The clients? Yes. Living almost everything. Packaging, racing for the invoice.

spk_0:   10:13
Exactly. Chasing for envoys, handling contracts, getting samples for declines, You name

spk_1:   10:21
it. That's a good school.

spk_0:   10:23
That's a good thing. It's a good thing. Well, it is what makes me being able to enter a larger company. Honestly, because I moved to a foreign agency. I don't. For the open net,

spk_1:   10:34
we could win it. Yeah, you Burnett. So you didn't want to stay longer And this now, I didn't allow agency why you thought that you reach a point where you learn what you have to learn, or I feel like he was a better opportunity to move to the other one.

spk_0:   10:46
I think I just want to step up in terms ofthe to go a bit more global. OK? In terms ofthe you know, it was quite narrow. The scope of work. I just want to step up a bit and see how the world runs. It's It's actually great experience learning how business runs my first job. But when I step up when I moved to the Internet, it was quite different. You know, things you get in touch with this different people you work with are different. It it gave me quite a sense of how large companies work, like corporate work, because I deal with

spk_1:   11:17
the harsh corporate. So you eventually add your experience in a logical

spk_0:   11:20
yeah, Taught me a lot, you know, about who are the stakeholders who will make the decisions and what do they make? This is in space on on DH. Why does the CEO have Tio, you know, meet higher management every now and then? A lot of reasons behind and I don't know much back then. But I have all these memories, all these happenings in my mind. Like right now when I think of it again, I understand a lot more on why it happened on. I just wanted my views, like just one of my whole you know, my you know, horizon policy

spk_1:   11:55
on DH was this large urgency? What were you in charge?

spk_0:   12:00
I was account servicing, so I had to deal with clients. Basically, it's like a project mentioning kind of cum manager. Yeah, account manager had a row. I It's a tough job. This is chip shop. I mean, you have to, you know, we have creatives in the back. S

spk_1:   12:18
o u r. The point off you are the intermediary between the client and the creatives in the

spk_0:   12:23
back. Exactly. I had to take all the pressure on a scolding and gelding out.

spk_1:   12:27
Always. Er that is very difficult to work with the credit. So I don't know to what extent that's true or

spk_0:   12:35
it is very true. I mean, but after all I mean

spk_1:   12:39
because you rely on that toe they have delivering the product. Exactly. They're like, if you get out there and you want to drive them right began clients at some expectations. Exactly. So why do you manage

spk_0:   12:49
a stuff is tough. I mean, you have to have people skills. That's the one thing that I get in return from. That job is to realise how important people skills this people's goes. There's not widely mentioned. I don't think a lot of people have heard ofthe people calling people skills. But I think everyone has a feel of it and about how you deal with people, how you observe how you communicate and how you managed expectations. I think and, you know, handle your own emotions as well. Um, it's It's very interesting how a lot ofthe people working in advertising agencies, they have excellent people skills, people who does not do not half people skills. They can barely survive the job. Um, so even as creative, if you want to drive in the industry, they need people skills as well because, after all, they're not our resists their designers, designers, right there, artists.

spk_1:   13:46
But then you said that when you were doing you study, your focus was not so much on the academics, but meeting people. They're being social skills yet. So at the end, you because the loops, right, this's what actually up you and Dad is experienced with.

spk_0:   14:04
It helped a lot. It helped a lot. Yeah,

spk_1:   14:07
that's good takeaway people listening to us because the new social skills union studies,

spk_0:   14:14
I think especially nowadays, I mean, it's very important to be able to work with people, communicate clearly, understand, you know? Yeah, I'll temperament, you know, because everybody's different, right? If you want to get one thing done, can't just go by the books. You have to be creative. You have to think of ways to make things happen, right? You can just sit there and say It's not my fault because you know he's not doing it. So she's not doing it. But you still have to get your job done right? You just can't sit and

spk_1:   14:41
wait for help. Yeah, sure. So because it's a much larger agency. Yes, sir. I guess I'm doing your time there. You must have worked with people with all kind off a different cultural background on not only people from Hong Kong. Yeah, Thie Lawton. Was it out for for you to have, you know, too be to have grown in Hong Kong and standing to rental. What's that? Mix it up in that job.

spk_0:   15:08
It Wasit helped me a lot. I mean too, because honestly, people from different backgrounds, off course, they will have different views that different practises on being, you know, living like I spent some time in Canada. It does help me, you know, to understand the difference between foreigners and local Hong Kong people, Um, you know, because well, in back in the day smokes off the match. One left. People are the foreigners, which makes sense because there are the openness from states on DH then. But for me, I usually spend most my time working with local Hong Kong's employees on but most of them. It's interesting how my company, they're hiring policy. I mean, they do have preference to people who study abroad. It's somewhat that it's, you know, it's quite it's quite nosy. Sounds bad, right that you're picky. You guys have preference

spk_1:   16:05
over isn't gonna people. So you

spk_0:   16:06
brought. But when you look at it, you know in detail, you can see there is a difference. That's because, um, you know, you're you know a bit more about how the road is doing your your you you have a better understanding off. Um ah, on the better. Isn't on the better things happening in the road of bitter sense on designs, you have a better sense of creativity. You respect creative a bit more and well, last but not least, you come. You have better communication skills. I mean, you can speak a bit off English when you go out and present at these can deliver his own messages across on set off being very shy and not speaking up. So I understand it sounds nosey. Emmy. If some people from us from the Hong Kong working an advertising agency, I think they will know the reputation ofthe Leo Burnett, they are quite They do have a reputation off being, you know, that nosy.

spk_1:   17:07
But this still exist, but they're being absorbed by,

spk_0:   17:11
you know, The past 10 years has has been

spk_1:   17:15
in a lot of crazy consolidation

spk_0:   17:16
a lot. Yeah, Sabrina is still exists in Hong Kong, but they are 1/3 of the size when I was there. Yeah, a lot of my colleagues back then they left. They even left the industry S o I. But it's this the change in the industry, the whole digital marketing coming up. Ah, lot of social media disrupting the whole industry. I still find it very interesting how the industry is developing. Andi, I still keeping close eye on what's happening around the road. Um ah. Actually created a lot off opportunities. Um, new opportunities for people who are interested in the field. Ah, lot of my previous colleagues. They came out and start their own agency, but definitely no,

spk_1:   18:04
There was a good momentum. I think people with this alarm nothing to learn and see other things were changing. Yeah. Jump on the bandwagon.

spk_0:   18:14
Yeah, a lot of thought. And especially on the client side. Corporate. They don't even want to engage large agencies anymore. That's the key. Um, the world is changing too fast now,

spk_1:   18:26
and we're interesting what you're saying. I think there was this. I'm older than you. So there was this train in the in the nineties. Well, a ll cos engaging services. Whether it is advertising Khun B, legal accounting and Son, there was district where there will be global company serving the clients in every market. And I think this business

spk_0:   18:50
model was failed. Yeah, that thing is disrupted by the Internet. It did. The internet changed. A lot of things changed a lot of industries. I don't know about others, but I'm more familiar with advertising marketing engines, industry. So from what I can see is that large agencies just couldn't adapt to change into her, has brought them brought to them on DH, especially how Internet has affected the whole consumer market, how consumers are behaving the differently than before on the larger agencies just cooked and they couldn't catch up cause it's changing too fast. And, um, their clients, they don't have that patients for the larger agencies to catch up to the market. So they just decided to, you know, that go off

spk_1:   19:38
them. Your other clients was to have a, you know, global clients. So it's a crime that you know in the US, and they will work with the same engines they were. Still, that's still

spk_0:   19:48
that's still pastel access. And that's what that's kind of the exception exactly. And that's what keeping these larger agencies alive. Yeah, they're still in Hong Kong. They still have an office, I think 30 to 50 South, because they still have region accounts with cosmetic brands with trial experience more like a global regional deal. But I don't They don't have much local clans anymore, not even especially those that require, you know, that require a lot off no creativity kind of market that requires a love digital work. Larger agencies are not that good. In that sense, they're still there's no good in a way that they are good with planning. They're good off above the line productions and creativity he's making. TV sees making very aspirational campaigns still their strengths. But, you know, right now in in our society, we don't even watch TV much anymore. Ah, it's you watch your phone, you watch social media and all the productions you see on your social media. They don't even require that much. No thoughts into it. It's very straightforward because you only have, like, five seconds or 10 seconds off their attention's back. So why spend millions of dollars into a 5 to 10 seconds? You know, clip? So that's the whole rationale that happened, what happened off previous five years. And it's interesting to see this change. And hence I see a lot of startups are trying to move into the marketing seen toe advertising scene

spk_1:   21:25
coming back. How long do you stay? I mean, how long did you work? Sorry with with little brown. It was around 2 to 3 years to the three years. Yeah. Ah, and so you. Obviously, you you were the right time to see the changing industry on where you tend. You were speaking about your friends starting their own agency. Where you tempted to do the same thing at the time

spk_0:   21:47
at the time? No, I wasn't ready. I I mean, starting a business, always about Do you have your clients? Do you know who are your clients? Att. That time the disruption hasn't fully, you know, appeared. I was You're still under the radar, somewhat fermenting. I don't see any opportunities out there for me to run my own business, honestly. But I do see I do. At that moment, I knew I decided to left. That's because I decided to leave is because I kind of want to start my own thing. But not in the advertising view, Another industry and another industry. I sort of had enough off the long hours over. You know, all the long hours, late nights and all the pressure that issue no involved on.

spk_1:   22:43
But that was the trigger. I mean, that was the trigger. Honestly,

spk_0:   22:45
it was trigger and I had that feeling off either feeling off, you know, being a little, you know, a little screw and a huge machine. I get the point off learning off being a screw. But at some point, you just want to see more

spk_1:   23:00
at some point. Yeah, don't contribute that

spk_0:   23:02
exactly. And just want to see more. Learn more from other stuff about jobs and other businesses. So I decided to leave.

spk_1:   23:09
And where was this industry?

spk_0:   23:11
I started an education centre like a tutoring centre in Hong Kong.

spk_1:   23:17
Okay, so the reason for that you're Fiske it by then Or

spk_0:   23:21
I did that for for for for that, you know, worst reason it's simply too right on. You know, hype, that people have been saying running education centres will make great money in Hong Kong because ofthe how are society? You know the how how we treat education. Tiger moms? Yeah, the target moms. How we believe scores is everything. Greys are everything on?

spk_1:   23:49
Did you know anything about this industry?

spk_0:   23:51
Very interesting. I know nothing about this industry.

spk_1:   23:53
You have a boner when she

spk_0:   23:55
says Yes, I do have a partner. We had a great idea. I mean, I still think that idea works, but at the end of you have been working at the end of no ability to execute anything. Our idea was simple. I mean, even up to now, I think is still legit. It's not. We would we were thinking off. We actually did buy a business in an existing business. Ah, an existing touring centre that is very traditional. Did just, you know, look after the students homeworks Nothing. Nothing else. And I was planning. We were playing Tio by that and then develop my own courses especially. And

spk_1:   24:31
those courses for students off which great

spk_0:   24:34
for students off Great 56 and above in high school. Yeah, Andi, it was right at the point where the Hong Kong education system was trying to introduce. How do you call that? I lost my

spk_1:   24:50
word for that. Indian companies

spk_0:   24:53
tongues sick. So it's times like it's like general studies. It inspires you to think about what are the reasons behind everything short of affairs, history, stuff like that. I just lost that work. I'm sorry, but it's a new subject. At the time on DH, people were free. We were panicking on whether how you can get a good grade out

spk_1:   25:13
of elegant because there was no bust paper.

spk_0:   25:15
Yeah, and honestly, even up to now, there isn't much past papers because it's all about critical thinking. Your grade students, by their critical thinking

spk_1:   25:24
capability can imagine Created big planning among the eye was great. I mean, panic. Listen to right.

spk_0:   25:30
Exactly. And so we were trying to design something that would help students to fell up critical thinking My set Ah, idea. I still think it's great. I still think, you know, people would buy it. But then the problem isthe we are not in this industry. We do not know much about it. We weren't even studying in traditional high school in Hong Kong.

spk_1:   25:52
But how did you build up this business? So you both an existing business has the idea tto basically transform it and make it grow. But were you trying out that time already? Toe digital digital eyes, that business Or, you know, you wanted to do it the traditional way Additional teachers and yeah, just similiar. Anyway, maybe I think it was well, it was too early.

spk_0:   26:15
I don't have any concept off, you know, bringing things to digital. And the worst part is that we relied on someone else to teach. We relied on someone else Toe designer course relight on someone, Tio, you know, keep the previous business running the homework, business running and turns out we rely everything. Like we outsource everything to ourselves. We don't do much. We just plan. You just think I would just sit there, Um, on it

spk_1:   26:46
tell you about the product that you wanted to deliver? I know about the product you knew about the client. So the difficulty wass for people to the difficulty was to create the right product, the product to

spk_0:   26:59
sell the product to start a private. That's the key on DH. We we know the product would, ah, what half demand. But we don't know how to sell it. We do not know how to sell it. We've tried a lot off different ways, but they're all conventional ways.

spk_1:   27:16
But what do you mean? The channel? The right channel? Teo I e I mean, we had a fly trying to find the to find the customers.

spk_0:   27:23
Yeah, we had a flyers. We've been, you know, talking to parents asking for referrals. We did some about traditional stuff offline, toe off. I stuff everything. Honestly. What? Everything was off night because we started that this education centre was in taipo. So it's in new territories, kind

spk_1:   27:41
off. Which year was that?

spk_0:   27:43
Wass, right? now I think it's around 22 alot. That's a 23 10 12 around 2012 11. 12. Um, so it was again. It was I don't have that mindset of digital marketing, So it was all off myself. I was about us being too naive. I think now, even about how our business, you know, how you have to make money. Don't even talk about business management. It was simply about how to make money. We were naive that people would be very sticky. We were too naive that if people see something and I think it makes sense, they will pay you for it. But it's a bit more, a lot more than that. There is a lot of trust issues, especially when it comes to education right on. We weren't aware of that. We weren't able to build that. So we even lose our existing clients. So love the parents left because they see us not paying attention to what we are doing, not being able to achieve what we said. I

spk_1:   28:45
think parents are ready to pay as long as the trust yeah,

spk_0:   28:50
and way even offloaded. You know, the communication with parents thiss field off work. We even offloaded to the tutors. You don't even talk

spk_1:   28:59
to the parents ourselves. You another parent at that time, I You went to the father or parent at that time, right? I wasn't. I don't make it even more complicated to understand the parents data

spk_0:   29:10
more. Exactly. So I learned it after we failed. Ah, and but honestly, you know, the whole experience was very valuable, sir. Valuable. It may maybe understand myself

spk_1:   29:24
how long? You know? 1st 1st question. How quickly do you realise that you know you will not make it.

spk_0:   29:31
I've realised that after six months. Six months, You have after six months on, because I I sort of went part time after six months, my partner took over as full time, and then after stove mints, he couldn't, you know, he just couldn't stand it anymore. So we decided to re sell it again.

spk_1:   29:52
So yeah, that's why that's why Exit?

spk_0:   29:55
Yeah. We had an acceptable almost everything. They lost everything, but we lost quite a lot. Yeah, so it's It's you know, I think around 300,000 Hong Kong so well depends on how you say how you see it. It was quite a lot when did during that time for me,

spk_1:   30:10
When you're, you know, in a few years of work experience,

spk_0:   30:13
Come on. So it was It was tough, but then again, I learned a lot, honestly,

spk_1:   30:19
but you were good. That really is realising pretty quickly that this business was not for you. Because, you know, typical mistake that a lot of entrepreneurs will do is the start of business. And because they put so much time money into that business, they don't want toe. They didn't wantto see the harsh reality that you know it's going nowhere. And then you keep on going and going and going, and then you you know, at the end you lost even more. Yeah, you're

spk_0:   30:42
right. I mean, I think it's in my blood somewhat somehow it's not I always, you know, revaluate reevaluate. And I I always told myself to be observant off what's happening around. Um, probably because of my dad. Business backgrounds like that. But this kindof quality and me actually helped me a lot even up to this a and and make me not to be such a stubborn person. Yeah, and sometimes you just have to stop back and think even when you fail what you did wrong. But of course, sometimes that gets me in a very tough position. Where I think I over think a lot. I would easily overthink a lot. But then on the bright side, you know, helping make help me learning from my own mistakes. So I guess why not?

spk_1:   31:29
Because on the other side, when you're an entrepreneur, you have to believe in your project. Exactly. Really? Did it. And you don't give you the try. You will never know if he could have works. You can find the right balance.

spk_0:   31:38
Exactly. That's the toughest point. I think being an entrepreneur, you know a lot of things. You just can't take things to the extreme. I just can't. You really have to always finding the right balance for yourself, depending on what the incident is, what the situation is. So but yeah, that's that's That's been tough. But I'm still learning, of course. Still learning. But

spk_1:   31:58
do they? Will you start another business where you don't know anything for you think? Okay, I'm done. They tried once and never again.

spk_0:   32:06
I think I'm done. I'm done trying something entirely new without any relevant network and the role of a knowledge. I think I'm done. I have to have some point. At some point. I do have better knowledge or network on that particular thing that I might go for it. But if I know nothing about it, I probably want

spk_1:   32:24
to go in use for you.

spk_0:   32:25
I think, Yeah, I think it's just a mistake. I mean, it was just a mystic. It's great that I learned a lot from it, but it's still a mistake. Way all make mistakes. Thank

spk_1:   32:40
you for sharing that problem. And so first experience in the advertising business. So going experience in the education business and after 12 mounds, then you move to something else. So I guess there was the business you knew something

spk_0:   32:56
about? Yeah, I knew something about it, and I went back to my family business. I was, which was about its trading a manufacturing firm. We were actually we were running a yarn business. You're in treating and spinning business. Um, so yarn. I think everybody know what your anus, but we're more like a salmon products, so we don't sell to a retail clients we sell to the sweater making batteries, and then they would produce sweaters out of our yarns and sell it to the market. Um, it was based in Hong Kong with a factory in China, just like any other. You know, business, traditional business. Ah, and just like any other traditional business, it was about to go on a down downhill that our slope. Um because China's you know, there are, you know, that doing great. I mean, in terms ofthe peep, the quality of the people in terms of how they've been dealing with trading businesses and their technical capabilities. The moment I went in wass like tough already, I can see us being, you know, a Hong Kong based yarn trading for manufacturing firm. We don't really have that advantage over the Chinese ones anymore. Ah, it's just diminishing on DH. The only advantage we had is that we are capable to deal directly with the fashion brands. Uh, this is something that back then the Chinese players, they weren't us capable just yet. I

spk_1:   34:35
didn't know the international markets exactly relied on you.

spk_0:   34:40
Yeah, it wasn't just about the language. Barrier was more about the practises. You know, China's practises were so different back then. I mean, now it it improved a lot already, but back then it was the worst. Um, so that was our advantage. So I managed. Teo, I went back and

spk_1:   34:59
worked there for 5552 security. Where were you basing china at that time or your money? I mean, you manage the business out of Hong Kong.

spk_0:   35:06
I manage the business out of Hong Kong because I was mainly responsible for sales. Okay, so most off buying offices, they are in Hong Kong. And so I had to station here well than in China. But of course I have to go back. A times for, you know, sometimes are quality cheques sometimes for, you know, taking my clients for tour on sometimes even for learning new things. You know, after I have to know what I'm selling, right?

spk_1:   35:32
So And this company was doing many fact. I mean, doing training and many for outsourcing manufacturing only, or where you also involved in design and, you know, proposing some kind of designed to your clients. Now we're going into our markets. Yeah, we weren't

spk_0:   35:46
involved in that. Yeah, not in the sweater designed at least. But at some point, we do have We do have input on the composition off the yards because about, But, I mean, nobody really realises that for me. I have a professional problem right now. When I go into shops, the bass better. The first thing I would, you know, look for its attack off compositions that my wife has been. You know, they just don't want to go shopping with me nowadays because I always tell her, Don't go to Sarah. Don't go to h and M's Off. Got on, but yeah. I mean, we get to make decisions off, give suggestions, tooted clients on what compositions. It's better. What would give you a better price? Saying what would give you a better feel off this matter at hand, feel stuff like that, but not on the design of this matter. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

spk_1:   36:38
And most of these clients who were serving there were Basin. They into us in Europe,

spk_0:   36:44
Apple with Europe and us. Meyer clients involved got, um, J Crew. Um what else? We used to have a spree, but they kind off you. No way. Yeah. We used to work with a well being. We used to work with us,

spk_1:   37:04
so that must be a large volume of

spk_0:   37:06
large volume. We do prefer larger fall you. But again, when the tide changes, when the Chinese you know, the local suppliers are most sophisticated, the large volume orders obviously went to them. So eventually, before I left my family office, my family business, it was obvious that they would rather dealing directly with the Chinese suppliers instead of going

spk_1:   37:35
through. You know, you have come to trend from in your

spk_0:   37:38
Gaff for many years, so it just happened, and I was flight happy that I managed to make an exit. Honestly, Yeah, before that really comes to an end.

spk_1:   37:48
Okay. And then on this business, I mean you So something looks like it's really one of your strong point eso. You realise something pretty quickly that this business wass um adding Teo difficult time.

spk_0:   38:04
I did not look at it and that's in such, you know, you know, high level spectrum. Honestly, Now, right now, looking back, I would say it's the right decision. Back then it was there's was this one thing that really triggered my decision off leaving. It was, um, the fact that I found out the larger Yugo with that business, the more, um, inappropriate things you have to do by inappropriate 19

spk_1:   38:36
with, you mean under

spk_0:   38:37
table stuff. Oh, yeah, a lot off, you know, sketchy stuff, which I, you know, growing up in Canada. And, you know, I was an international school during my high school years. I mean, the Western culture would teach me this is not something you would do you should do. And, uh, for me, it was kind of hard to accept that

spk_1:   38:56
it's always very difficult anyway, to build a business. Exactly. And you

spk_0:   39:00
Exactly. Because when I was my, you know, my cells order, some of my clients are believing in us more and more. So we were getting larger orders. But it seems like the larger order we had, the more I have to do, like these hunt under table stuff. So I I'm just not comfortable with that. And I was telling my family that I mean, if I built my first of all, if I built my career on this business, I can see we don't really have much of a position anymore after 10 years. And during that time, 10 years with me and I'll be around 38 years old. I'll be around. Yeah, 37 38 years old, and I And the second reason is I'm some just very uncomfortable with these under table stuff. If for if I do not, you know, give these away. And I would get in so much trouble because, you know, because the the row beer in is that we deal with that brand, right? But we still have to rely on the spread of manufacturers to make the spreaders us supplying to the sweater manufacturers. It made them tow, have you know, a very high, You know, they have all the rights Teo get us into dipshits. They can claim us. We would have a reason. They can, you know, put us in a very difficult decisions on what I meant by the under table stuff for us, not to the brain. Because, after all, they are all you know, international firms, they do have stirred policies. I do believe there isn't much going along with, um but between me and swear, Oh, manufacturers, I do think a lot off the people in the industry have been doing that us you know, traditional practise in which I just can't. I just have on DH. So that's the second reason I told my family that I'm I'm just uncomfortable with it. So at the end of day, I just told them I just don't want to change. I don't have I don't want such a huge change in my career when I was when? When I'm 38. Because I believe when I'm 38 I believe I have a family. I might have kids already. And if you ask me to go for a change in my career in direction of material, I think I would rather not. And then I just told them I think it's best for me to leave now. And, you know, just explore something new and see if something works out as early as possible. That you left that I left my family business around four years ago. So which was around right on my 30th? Yeah.

spk_1:   41:38
You said you made an exit. Was this family business? Well,

spk_0:   41:41
it wasn't really an exit. It wasn't No, not know in terms ofthe money, kind of accept it. I do believe our business do worth quite a bit of money, but dealing with that e don't have off. I don't know. I didn't really get involve with wrapping up the business peace after all. My father, my dad, he has all the connexions, you know, to deal with this off on dealing with things in China. Isn't it easy? Um, you require some special people with special expertise to handle it? Because we have a factory. You have licence. We have, you know, a property inside. So I didn't get involved too much. But at the end of the day, I do know that we managed to sell sell to business for some money. Um, not a lot. Honestly, but just to get our hands clear, um, we don't have to deal with anything with the Chinese government. Everything is settled properly, so we don't have to go back off. Then you don't even have to go back for business for wrapping up. So that's what happened at the end.

spk_1:   42:43
And you stay with the family business for all along.

spk_0:   42:45
Were you five around? Five years around 4 to 5 years for five years. So it was quite interesting. I learned a lot more again on how businesses you know, operated. I learned a lot about, you know, human nature again. You unskilled people, skills, human nature. It all comes down to human nature. You have to understand that in order to work with people, right, you want to get something out of their hands. You have to understand who they are on DH that my major, I'll take honestly, because after all these, I can understand why people are so obsessed with ease under table stuff, right? It's obviously it's it's in our nature, right? Agreed. A lot of things, like generated by greed. So but it's about whether how you tackle greed. I think I from that point on, I understand it's not about pricing. Sometimes it's really not about what's in front of you. It's about, you know, behind the scene. What are the relationships? What do they really want out off their career? Sometimes it's about money. Sometimes it's not. You can be up about that stuff, but having understand that really helped a lot, really helped a lot. Um, help me that, um, you know, running a business, you just can't go by the textbook like there is no tax book in that because every single person is different, right? If you have to deal with a lot of people who have to be observing, you have to really stick deeper in to understand every one of them and even everyone, every single corporations. Ah, the big ones, small ones. You have to know who the decision makers. It's not like it's not like you only have to pay special attention to this decision makers, but you still have to understand what are the rose off every single person you meet. If he or she is just an executive, like a junior executive, you still have to be good to them. You just can't ignore them and give them bad attitude. I mean, after all, they are the one delivering. The message is

spk_1:   44:53
right. You have to understand we speak. Teo was

spk_0:   44:57
exactly who So Yeah, that's that's that had a big impact on

spk_1:   45:01
me. And because you have all these different experience that brought you Teo, find out more about people skills. So today, when you deal with people, what are these people skills that you are especially? Pay attention to what is the most important whether the things that you say, Okay, I want this and I don't want that.

spk_0:   45:23
I think the first thing that came into my mind it's after we still have to be a genuine person no matter what. Just be genuine. There's no point off giving people a hard time, but at the same time, just always, you know, be just just try your best to engage conversation at all times. This's the only way you can understand a bit more about each other. Um, I I personally I'm not afraid ofthe sharing two people. What? I know what I have in processions because I always believed that it's better to exchange ice, believe in a win win situation. I don't believe people would give you things for no reason. I do not believe that

spk_1:   46:04
because a lot of people think that whoever has the information as power.

spk_0:   46:08
Yeah, and I took whatever leverage exactly, but I don't believe that I believe in a women's situation, so everybody's happy when everybody's happy, you know, down the role you will win everything together, right? But if you take advantage of a person at this moment at this very moment, yes, you might win something. But at the other day. You don't know what will happen, because

spk_1:   46:29
I will you assess this person as the same view on

spk_0:   46:33
Ofcourse, ofcourse I've been through. I've been through a terrible case that made me learn a lot, which where I did not, that person did not reciprocate on. I learned a hard lesson. Well, honestly, it did not stop me for believing and what I believe, but did tell me how to be even more observant. How to ah, really assess whether you know the person across, whether he is really under, really, whether he is the same type of person as me. I read a book. It talks about giver and takers. So I mean, I'm more screwed. You is like being a giver on if I have to know how to identify a taker, that's that's the underlying, you know, moral from my experience. So being that this type of person in Hong Kong, it's quite it's not popular. I think it's because of a culture, the Chinese way of doing things, you know, reaching a win win situation, being opened up to what you have. It's somewhat more, more like a Western culture kind of thing, eyes. I a discussion. I don't know. But it seems like right now I'm happy because I being we're building my business on so tightly with the start up scene, the tech start up scene, It's it's actually matches. We thought what I believe. Yeah, because people in the start of industry they do shared this. Believe off, you know, not being called up. No holding on the things they know, being open minded, being welcomed being genuine toe build real values. Is that off? You know, very short term greedy vows. Esso. I quite enjoyed where I am right now,

spk_1:   48:31
so that's a good transition. So you move from this family business was the difficulty that you explain And yes, at that time, to another experience venture than you want to qualify. That which wass So you set up in some kind of investment Town was a proper structure. It was more like a ah club off investors at the beginning. What was the exact form it took me?

spk_0:   48:58
So after I left my family business, I actually I started my co working space first. Yeah, I was. I was very intrigued by the whole star of investment kind of thing, but I don't know how to approach that. I don't know how to tackle. I don't even know like what it's like in Hong Kong just yet. I have no idea. So I started my co working space first. But answering your question, the structure Right now it's, um we are not a sophisticated just yet because we just thought we just had our first close half year ago. So it's just our first investment vehicle. We took a very simple structure. We did not go for, you know, honestly, we retreated like more like a friends and family call investing in assets.

spk_1:   49:48
So it's more like a club of investment club.

spk_0:   49:51
Exactly. Exactly. So it's easier at the moment.

spk_1:   49:55
But then so after the family business, you move to the co working space, okay? And ah, you knew something about it? I coming back to the same question, you

spk_0:   50:08
know, just like every Hong Kong businessman. We do know one or two things about real estates, right? Um, so co working space is it's I won't deny that it's a real estate business. I mean, just come on, don't play.

spk_1:   50:27
You don't You won't say that. Take business as we work well,

spk_0:   50:32
you can say it can be enabled by tech, but underlying it's a real estate basis. Eso It's a real estate gameplay, but with a whole new concept injected into it. I quite like it. I quite like the fact that you get to meet people you, actually, you my position, my co working space, a space to help starts grow. So I quite like this proposition. I quite like the role that it plays Andi. You know, being able to meet people in this field was actually the biggest asset I get out of it.

spk_1:   51:09
So you believe in the possibility to build a community around around the unsuspecting working space? Yes, I do. Yeah, I don't think that's true, but I know that I don't remember if it's where we work. Another brand that is well known in the co working space business. I think they even develop their own app. So they have their own abs so that their own can they want to develop their own social network is their members. I don't know. Success was

spk_0:   51:39
I don't know. I don't really have fact on that. I do know we we work hasn't, um, I do know a couple of Hong Kong co working spaces. They have an app as well. Honestly, we do have a nap. It's well, but I be honest to myself that I do not expect it to become, you know, a virtual social networking. Because after all, the I think the key to building a community in a quirk in space is the physical presence, the physical connexion you have by seeing each other by being able to engage each other during lunchtime coffee breaks, smoking time. That stats. I think that's the key to a corking storeys community. Um, you know, there are a lot ofthe aspects. You look at it to make this happen on. It just cannot be a community cannot be built by simply making a space nicer cannot be built by, you know, getting the right staff or offering the right freebies. It's not just

spk_1:   52:44
because you offer a coffee that you will

spk_0:   52:46
be a nice co working space happen. They started out,

spk_1:   52:48
but then do you want to build? It doesn't mean that you will be more picky on the tenant and only have 10. And in a specific industry because the underside ministries whom they are more likely to share experience and, you know, things that our proper to the business Is that the key or

spk_0:   53:08
I think it is. I think it is. I'm glad that we are. Well, I don't think a lot of people have heard of a cork in space. But I mean, one of the better things about having a small look, working spaces that we get to choose. You know, our members get to choose to keep a balance. Right now, we have a 50 50 balance between new economy businesses and old economy businesses. So it keeps a healthy balance off. You know, having people from who knows the newer things and people who want to know more about the newer things to be in the same space. Andi. It will create a lot ofthe exchange's ah, lot of interactions, even business opportunities. And and I am telling the truth that are courting visit is really matching people up for businesses. Andi, it's It's the one most ultimate objective off me, running according to connect them and then between themselves, having business is running together or on a collaboration basis. I think this

spk_1:   54:11
is What will you say? That I won't say pure co working space. So it's also a mixed kind of a mix between a co working space and in Kibera. Yeah,

spk_0:   54:21
I that that's that. I do see a bit more like an incubator, but I I I can't say it ISS because I did not put that much off resource is tio incubate them. I am more like creating a platform. Ah, a platform with Healthy Member makes with the right people working around with you on DH offering offering different opportunities. If you want to meet a certain type of people, beat investors, um, lawyers or even digital marketers that we have fasted. We have looked into them. We know that they are. Okay, Um it's more like I still think it's more like a platform rather than incubator, because in Cuba has somewhat a bit more of a responsibility. I think off, you know, you know, keeping track off their performances on

spk_1:   55:19
sometime, you know, buying some equity in the company.

spk_0:   55:21
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I used to have this idea ofthe building it like an incubator. A

spk_1:   55:27
Z. Yeah. I think it does a new Camaro will make your basically your investment in active areas can kind of a by product of your main activity being a worker co working space. You're

spk_0:   55:39
right, you're right. But the problem all comes down to, you know, the business model. And if I go into ah incubator business model, then obviously well, it will not will not be a real estate project if I go into incubator model cause I will rely on capital gains. Right? The problem ist i e could not go for that. Because in Hong Kong, if you get, you know, get out some property to run the co working space you'll really have that liberty. You still have to pay rent. You have change for a return, you know, expecting expecting gov Bottom line. Exactly. Expecting capital gain might be might not be very feasible at this moment. I don't I mean, I would like to have some at some point to really start accordance with that runs with an incubation model, but probably not for me, just just yet. Not even right now at this point, But I would want one, so I still want to have a bit off that incubation kind off, you know, essence. And in my

spk_1:   56:45
co working space. Yes. Well, you run your business, your co working space business. You know, I would say in the traditional way, having a look at your bottom line, and they have generated a profit. But I understand. So So you were not wear the joke at the beginning of this conversation, but we worked our way. We work mood, Yeah. Grows And saying, Well, isn't what you know? As long as we have new members and remembers that at some point we'll find a way to become profitable. You don't believe in

spk_0:   57:15
that? I can't say I don't believe in that. I was more like I can't even say I was sceptic. Honestly, um, cause I don't know much. I always wanted that. I always want to be a learner. I don't want to judge too much. So for we work, I would say I have never been able to understand their play, but always pushed them all the best. Because if if they can really exit with an I po perhaps be will benefit from it. Perhaps so. You know, I don't I won't say I knew. It's not gonna go Well, I won't say that. I did hope they can, you know, exit. But after all, I did predict that if something goes wrong something, for example, if the row show goes wrong, which just happened, it will become a snowball. We just rolled down the hill on DH. It will become a disaster. And apparently you did.

spk_1:   58:14
Thing is again. We are recording the past cast. After we work fell, we work fell Teo Scofidio and they've been, ah, lot off surprising use. Let's put it this way that their CEO went into some kind of trouble. Um, but so it's very popular now to criticise Well, yeah, it's easy. It's easy, very easy. But still, I think the kind of make a revolution and our people can work. I mean, terms off. What kind of office need that's That's a given. I don't think that I don't think there will be a step back there. Yeah, that's given. Maybe we work there when too far to raising money and decided of hyper grows, you know, without paying attention to the bottom line, whether it will be profitable or not. But there's still invent. I think there's still inventing something and that something will stay no matter what happened in the coming months. With our years with we work, do you agree with that? Ofcourse. I agree.

spk_0:   59:18
I mean, ice. I will have to thank them. I started my co working space before we were moved to Hong Kong before other major players. I can't fire the desk started their business way started in the same year. But I was like having your in events. Andi, I have witnessed the whole change off. How the market knowledge of like, how people know about co working space. Um, once we work is here. There are lot of PR, you know, on a lot ofthe noise where the market becomes sophisticated, they'd learn a lot more recordings basis and helped us a lot because we weren't in the role. We weren't in the right position. We don't have to capital to educate a market honestly, but for them being in here, they did the job for us on. It helped us a lot. So after so much you know, so much happened. I still think I would have to thank them. I honestly didn't push them well, she said, it's unfortunate that they didn't on. And and for some reason, right now, I'm quite happy that I did not. I had not been too aggressive, you know, And s so right now, I'm not in that tough off position, us, the others are on. But again, it's sad to see, you know, we work. I still I do believe that in way of work I do honest you and I honestly think it's a new way off working that benefits a lot ofthe entrepreneurs might not be the same for the staff, but I think all the entrepreneurs it it is a tusk if great values to them.

spk_1:   1:0:59
Because the day you start your business, you don't have Teo. I mean, otherwise, what is the other option? You have to find your own office. WiFi, right? Sure you have a printer. It sounds like stupid things. But when you start your business, you want to be focused on your business.

spk_0:   1:1:17
Yeah, and you get to meet more people. I mean, after all, running a business is not just sitting at your desk and just type right. It's been one in that. I think I was thinking you need to meet more people to get inspired. Get advice, comments, something. God. So, yeah, that's what Corkins basically

spk_1:   1:1:32
give you. And so today, you you have any plan to continue to grow in Hong Kong, Or maybe in other cities and Hong Kong.

spk_0:   1:1:38
I mean, in terms of plan, I always have to implant. Honestly, I mean, but I really have to depend on the current economy, like the whole situation on the economy right now. It at that at this very moment, Ah, co working space are in a lot of work in spaces are in deep shit piece part of me, because off the, you know, the whole collapse. If we work, um, I can feel that it might be a chance for different co working spaces like us who are not. You are still, you know, being okay. We might be able to take advantage off the current situation. We might be able to take over

spk_1:   1:2:16
your because maybe we'll clear the market.

spk_0:   1:2:18
Yeah, clear the market. And we can't even take over some spaces that already benefited. So we don't have to infest that much to start that up. Um, I can see some opportunities in Hong Kong Um, but I believe the pence, Um, because the market on Carina, it's quite crocked crooked, even co working spaces that are running properly, not like the reworked model. No, a lot of them are really making money. A lot of them are still at a loss. Ah, it's right now. If the market it's a bit more clear, like less competitors, perhaps we cannot just the supply in Dominican reach better equilibrium where you know us operators can manage to survive, at least not at a loss to barely break even at these, um, if you can reach that break even then, I think this market will be able to, you know, to grow a bit more. But if operators operators are keep, you know, being at a loss, I don't think it's healthy to grow. After all, you just can't grow with a loss, right?

spk_1:   1:3:28
But do you think that too many people went into this business? I think so. There's something easy to man and the barrier and money, too much money to invest.

spk_0:   1:3:39
It's I think it's in the blood of Hong Kong people where they are so obsessed with real estates. That's one of the biggest problem. Um, you look, I couldn't Tong. I don't know if the audience are from there with Hong Kong, but, um couldn't hung it. They have sold many quirky spaces infested by local businesses, local investors. I mean, they are thought that what this would be a good business for them is easy, right? Basically, you

spk_1:   1:4:09
have the space for review

spk_0:   1:4:10
on this base already just told, you know, two or three million, five million and Tehran spaces up. You can keep the presses running. You'll get a when told return, get a premium on off. You know, traditional rental. That's the plan. But obviously just too there is. The man is not catching up. The man is not touching up. Not as quick us to supply is growing so control. It's a major disaster district

spk_1:   1:4:42
because also the location. Because, as you put it right, it's at the end to realise that business and and realised that, you know location is key.

spk_0:   1:4:49
Yeah, I mean, being in Clinton, a lot of people would think it's up and coming business district because the rent in Central it's way too high. Overall island side. You know the rent is skyrocketing s o can't harness the next best thing for the problem is people go to couldn't talk because it's cheaper, right? So are they willing to give a premium from, you know, traditional office spaces? Um, I always thought I don't believe co working spaces offering a cheaper ofthis option. I do not believe in that. I mean, um, Goro Convenience is Yeah,

spk_1:   1:5:25
but convenience and community.

spk_0:   1:5:27
Yeah, convene and community. And you know the flexibility as well. So So it's not about affordability. I don't really I'm not convinced on affordability when you break down the cost of my probably costs similar within, you know, plus 10 plus or minus 10%. So when you could go to a second tier district like tongue, um, you are competing with a lot ofthe cheaper options. But the thing is, you do have operation cars where you do come have caused by investing millions of dollars into renovations. So you just if you go, if you match the market price off traditional rental, you'll be you'll be at a very great loss. And I that's not sustainable. S o. I could tell this is a disastrous area, you know. Ah, the occupancy rate is so low that's fairly low. Unless originally, unless

spk_1:   1:6:19
you're be work you were. You

spk_0:   1:6:21
bring in copper clients. You set up the office for copper clients. That makes more sense because you already have kinds fill up the space with the space. But if you are still aiming for s armies to move in to the co working space, I don't think it's I don't think the business is feasible is sustainable at the moment. So back to the question you asked me about going on on, I think it really depends I'm getting for I'm getting more and more picky on on. You know, I'm having a more extensive lists off criterias to be met if I want to open up a new space. My, this is getting longer and longer because all the things I've seen, um, there is so much criteria location. The condition of the building

spk_1:   1:7:06
doesn't if you approach it as a real estate business, which at the end of this, it's a new way to approach. To really do that, you may want to consider opening co working space in cities where the realise that is less expensive, and that's the point was on comets Really stages. So expensive.

spk_0:   1:7:27
I've went to Thailand just nine months ago out his highland. I was trying to see if a bank August the right place on die. Exactly. The outcome was exactly what was mentioned. I mean, it only works if they have, ah, land issue. They have a rent a problem If they have plenty off our land off spaces, I don't think quirk in space a sustainable in terms of his business model. Um, so after I had my eyes on Tokyo, I had my eyes on London even, you know, Toronto. Off course. I still have to take some time to explore further, but at least I think that makes more sense going for first year. International cities have might have a right to problem that wouldn't make a bit more sets, I think. Yes.

spk_1:   1:8:12
On DH, then discussing the other business shadow in I understand there is a Connexion between the two s o where you been. You have this investment?

spk_0:   1:8:29
Yeah. Yeah, s.

spk_1:   1:8:31
So, what kind of investment do you? What kind of investment is early Stage B? What is it?

spk_0:   1:8:38
Yep. So we infesting early stage start ups that are in marketing tech and travel tech. Yeah.

spk_1:   1:8:44
Okay, So you have a clear focus. Yeah, very clear. Focus it simply for treason in Hong Kong. Or you could be in the region.

spk_0:   1:8:51
It can be in the region. We prefer startups that would go for the Southeast Asian market instead ofthe Europe, US or even China market. Andi, we do prefer marketing type and travelled back because we are more familiar. Me and my partner, we're more familiar with these two industries. Thes two verticals. You know, infesting in early stage tech start ups. It's very risky, right? Everybody else you invest time, you might even get one to raise the next round. Eso another to manage the risk better. We just thought it would be best if we focus on what being you know, we know more on We will be best if Beinfest in the industry is not be half. At least we have a network in Oh,

spk_1:   1:9:39
yes, because also a lot off start ups to that. There is so much money around that they are looking. They're looking more force, more money that just getting money sitting on there. I mean, that is sent to the bank account. So if you can contribute to their business because of your network is of your knowledge, then he may help Teo invest in the in the right start up at the very beginning, right?

spk_0:   1:10:02
Exactly. So it this disposition, this has been working very well for us when people don't be late. But to believe that this is more, more or less the more a bit less risky approach towards investing tech start ups. Um, another thing that's that we don't We would focus on software starters and sent off high risottos again. It comes down to our knowledge and the risk, usually a heart rest oughta pass a lot more into this business. You have to take care of productions are in D ah, productions can get quite complicated, you know, coming from my background in manufacturing business. So and you even have to take care of the logistics right when it comes to hardware. So a lot of these aspects made us start. Perhaps you should focus on software. So right now we are doing pretty well. We have just, you know, I just took account yesterday. We have sourced way have met 140 two teams. Well,

spk_1:   1:11:05
that's all over. Now you get this deal

spk_0:   1:11:09
flow. Yep, it's interesting. Network or network? It's one off the key channel. Another. It's to some on performs like gusts. Another way of doing so is to simply a 10 events, Um, on pay attention to news on. We went toe Bangkok because we also want to build a deal flow in Bangkok. So we met some really interesting people faeces, incubators, celebrators and even government agencies so that those that peace little things has been doing great. Wass ah helped us to cuss. Discovered a lot of teams on, apparently because Bangkok's famous words travelling business way, the whole tourism business and even in terms of marketing they're quite sophisticated in the road marking production. Is there one of the best? Um, so it's actually quite a good fit for us for for my fee. Si business. Well, so yeah, these are the major channels I would say off course 142 I, half of them are, are not relevant. I'll be honest only around Sony's centre, too. A more relevant, um, but I think it's I

spk_1:   1:12:20
mean, if it's confidential, are many investment, did you right now, Did you decided to do?

spk_0:   1:12:26
Sure, Right now, in our whole business, we have 1234 We have four teams in our portfolio for teams are cross marketing and travel. One of them just close their pre, eh? Ah, I don't think I can disclose just yet, but I think it'll be on the news very soon. Um, it's, um Their journey has been tough. It was, but it was quite inspiring for me being an investor. Well looking from day one until now. Been through a lot on DH. Yeah, and the other three are Two of them are more earlier. There still and at the earlier stage, they race around off, see ground. Still trying, Tio, you know, get the critical mass on board trying for multiple attractions on DH. Another one that we that is our latest investment. They are actually doing pretty well there, the one with some kind of foreign exchange problem right now, because they have managed to expand their business very quickly. They're separated, Teo, build businesses across all these Asia. They are. I can disclose this. They are a experiential travel touring agency. So you book Local Experience. Tourists with thumb on DH They operate their own brand of tours. It's not it's nothing new. Honestly, it's nothing new. There are a lot of starts doing this right now, but one of the key thing that we like about them, it's that they know how to market their products and services. They did not spend thousands off 10 thousands off dollars into Seo ECM. All these digital marketing channels. They stopped doing that six months ago, Andi will

spk_1:   1:14:16
start believing. What word of mouth Where'd you find this satisfying and we'll speak to I mean, one of the marchers experience with another 10 potential clients, and so

spk_0:   1:14:24
one of the more effective ways that the other is still a distribution of P two p channel because they see a great problem in the industry where the larger OT aides have been trying to offer these kind of experiential tours. But the quality hasn't agreed so. These larger, you know, travelling uses like Airbnb. They're very happy

spk_1:   1:14:48
to work with him experience. That time

spk_0:   1:14:50
I got clay, so I think they found the sweet spot for this Mrs Moto on. That's why we moved on. I mean, we moved ahead and invested in them. Ah, there's two doing Grey. I mean, I'm gonna have lunch with him tomorrow, and they're gonna tell me more about the next round of fund raising. Ah, no. Hopefully we can participate again. See how it goes. That's yeah. So so far, we are very lucky that we have four and two of them managed to raise the next round. I think when we invested more, that's a good result for now, because the pool is small. Before I think I wrote it will become more like percent

spk_1:   1:15:30
off 70. Um, bitch, you know that you receive a day. Yeah, that's you know, that's what, 8%? About to about two percent now, because you say Anyway, we all know that when you're in this business, you will receive so many bitch. Yeah, as you say, 50% of them anywhere. Yeah. I mean, you go through the pigeon, Umut know that it's going nowhere, right? 7 April. Exactly. I mean, with the relevant number is off by 140 than it is down to 70. Yeah, and you invested in four time is 8%. You're right, Matt. That is about Brazil. You're right. It's a good ratio.

spk_0:   1:16:10
That's a good wrestle so far. But again, I guess when the pool, you know becomes becomes bigger and the numbers will decrease

spk_1:   1:16:17
for sure. But do you have clear policy in terms ofthe, you know, what is the ticket that you that you invest or it's more about, You know, you get filling enough? Oh, wait, Do you think about the project? We do. We do.

spk_0:   1:16:28
We do. We do. We have indications, but we don't. It's not absolute. We do have an indication off around 120 to 100,000 US. So that's pretty enough. More, you know, every stage on, but usually at times you know when it's necessary. We were always open for larger ticket, but it really depends if it's really de condensing.

spk_1:   1:16:53
So today, when you mean you have your deck, you receive a deck. Ah, you have some interest in the project. So you invite the team to pitch. Is that a lot about human skills again?

spk_0:   1:17:10
Yeah, I think so. I think so. Because after all, being entrepreneur always believe in, you know, being a people person. But of course

spk_1:   1:17:19
I know the industry. So you have a kind of good screening already whether what the the claim they will do makes sense. But then it comes back to human skills, and whether or not you believe in the India in the team, that is so true. That's so true.

spk_0:   1:17:33
That's why we always sky enough. No, but that that's thought up. You know, their idea makes sense or not. Andi. So what? So we when we meet them, it's more like assessing in himself with herself, on their personality, on their knowledge, on the interaction between us, more over. Then you know, their technical capabilities or more over than, you know, you know, sometimes even more for numbers because, you know, projections come on. Projections. Right. So five years, business exciting market size. Well, yeah, it's a large market, I know. But you know, so, um and obviously already stage start ups, they don't have distractions for sure you can't provide, but it's not. It's just indicated because this sort, really so sometimes is more about the person. Ah, we used to spend quite a bit of time talking like meeting them, talk about different stuff. Big, black, often irrelevant to the prison's just to see, engage them and see who they are. Sometimes it's it's interesting. It's This is a very interesting process. You will meet all kind of people like a lot of different people. It's interesting how I can show I share one this in and Thailand a lot off. We met quite a bit of entrepreneurs who are quite well educated. They are actually the second generation off wealthy families, like very wealthy. Ah, I thinkit's kind kind of because out there, how you know the whole society, how it shapes up, um, on DH. And that's probably why Southeast Asia is still. They still have a lot of potential in the whole startup for start ups. Because you know these people, if they started business, they will have so much offended like incomparable advantage because of that network knowledge bays, you know? So it's quite interesting when we had to Bangkok to meet people like this. Ah, we're quite intrigued. Honestly, after all, I mean, I do want to support people who are from the ground and want to build something up, but at the same time, when you see a fantasy just like the invest your money. Yeah. I mean, that's our money. And it is intriguing, you know, sometimes to really pay more attention to the sort of more. I know it's not fair, but I'm sorry, but professionally speaking, we just have to do that.

spk_1:   1:20:07
Yeah. And so with these two activities, I guess you are very, very busy. Days. Yeah. Typical question asking this podcast. How do you arrange a day? Do you have some kind of a routine You cheque your e mails in the morning, And then you did this and you do that or I mean independence. You know what's getting what's going on on that

spk_0:   1:20:30
day? Yeah, I d'oh ideo I I'm not who much off a very routine percent, but I do have to keep a certain routine I have to go back to. I have to location of co working spaces right now, so I have to have back different location every week. I do have my plan, you know, schedule on the stable. Where and then after that, we do have a lot of weekly meetings, and I have my own private time for, you know, personal trainers to some weights place in Florence Ah, nde. You know, I tend to do my thinking, thinking related things in the afternoon where my mind is more clear on on operational stuff more in the morning so that I can get myself awake, so But again, I don't I don't have Ah, very like, ah, hour by hour plan. Honestly. But then I will try to keep some routine going so that, you know, people who work around me would be easier to adapt if I just walk on whatever I want on DH. Sometimes you were, you know, they don't really want to work with people I got so try to be a bit more organised and let's get you. But not to the point where I have an hour to our routine every single week. Okay? Yeah.

spk_1:   1:21:53
Difficult to stand by such routine anyways.

spk_0:   1:21:56
Yeah, honestly, I'm the type of person. Even if I said it, I will be able to do it. So why like yourself, right? Exactly. So, yeah.

spk_1:   1:22:07
Okay, then. Any idea what will be the next step? So growing this to business, it looks like you're pretty enthusiastic about this to business. And when you want to do or you're thinking already about, you know, possible off a move.

spk_0:   1:22:22
I guess for now I'm quite happy with where I am. I'm trying to focus on what I've been doing, I because I do see any potential in both business, both in co working and both in the PC business. Even though the recent you know, cork and Market it's not us, you know, it's optimistic it's before, but I still think down the road. It has true value. When the moment is right, it will be time. There will be times where you know expansion. It's accent would make sense. So occupation with that, with the co working space on on the faeces, I I see that people, actually we have really good responses on how we stick on our approach. And a lot of people in Hong Kong, they actually do have the wealth. Honestly, I'm extra money for a bit of alternative investment. Um, so it's interesting how people are so intrigued by what we're doing. Um, on. I think Angel investing will become more popular in Hong Kong

spk_1:   1:23:25
because traditionally people will invest in real estate

spk_0:   1:23:27
exactly. And nowadays, when real estate expressive of highest fi 3 to 5 years. Real estate has slowed down. Everything's a lot off. You know, fiscal policies, the you know, the rate of return has decreased quite drastically. People are looking into other stuff lately. Um, so I think now it's a great chance to keep educating the market on the's, you know, high net worth individuals. At some point, I do see them, you know, giving it a try. And if people would get a profit off it, it doesn't have to be a 10 X or 20 aches, right? Honestly. But if they get it 2256 kind of return, I think they'll be happy. And I think that this will be one of the first steps for really building an angel, you know, environment in Hong Kong. So I guess we see on a fee Seaside. I'm quite optimistic. And I do think that if I put keep pouring my time and effort in, there'll be more interesting happening.

spk_1:   1:24:28
Okay. Yep. Perfect. So thank you, Geoffrey. And so if people want to follow you, um, your news, What you're doing 19 Twitter. What is it? I think

spk_0:   1:24:42
then they didn't do Yeah, okay for me

spk_1:   1:24:45
and so And if you're interested and you know Jeffrey's business, so because I think that I didn't even mention the name, he's really not for promotions. Thie Co Working Spaces School Was it basically

spk_0:   1:25:02
So I was trying to be creative. Yeah, because I do. So I did. Some research is usually now, even for stuff like that. And I was Can it be like, just sound? No, she's not. Yeah, and I was like, Well, what would you do if you want to encourage someone or if you want to self increase him, encourage yourself? And then I was like, Oh, when I played I play a lot of badminton on Guy played. I

spk_1:   1:25:27
would think I played badminton when I was young. Oh, when I heard this term Bush there that make me think of the really

spk_0:   1:25:35
Yeah, exactly. So that I was how I was inspired and I was like, Okay, and it's quite interesting. Looks nice on in, and I when you look at it on DH, it's special. It's memorable than I

spk_1:   1:25:50
used to go with it. Yeah, that's a cool name. Thank you. And the investment found is their name. Or

spk_0:   1:25:57
there's a name our faeces called catalysts ventures

spk_1:   1:26:01
that those people can't find you on Google. Just good looker. I guess it was you. Any project in AA? Yeah, Marketing Or definitely. And travel in travel tech. So you may send your deck to a Jeffrey if there is a first. So thank you, Jeffrey. Thank you for sharing all that with us. Um, that was a passionate discussion and ah, tow people listening to us on DH thing. If you're still with us, have a look. It's one hour, 26 minutes. Thank you. Looks like means that you will find this discussion trusting and up the next time. Bye bye. Thank you. Bye bye.