#281 | Co-sleeping with a NICU Premie: Taylor's Birth Story at 33 weeks with an Unconsented Episiotomy

Taylor Westenberger celebrated her baby shower at 33 weeks pregnant with her first baby. Little did she know, two days later she would go into labor and give birth to a 4.5 pound baby boy. Her birth experience, while generally smooth, involved the absence of her husband due to Covid protocols and an unconsented episiotomy. She was encouraged to breastfeed in the NICU, but when it came to taking her baby home she was warned about the dangers of co-sleeping and told horror stories of babies who had died in their mothers' beds. Determined to provide the safest environment for her little one, Taylor embarked on a mission to learn about safe co-sleeping practices. If you've ever wondered about co-sleeping safely with a newborn, this episode offers valuable insights and reassurance. Tune in for Taylor’s inspiring story and expert advice on creating a secure and loving sleep environment for your baby.

Taylor's Website: The Sleepy Circle
Taylor Westenberger on Instagram

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Transcript

Walking through the door, especially seeing all of the stuff, like there was balloons on the front door, baby shower presents everywhere. I was feeling all of this ecstasy, almost in what happened for the two of us, and he came out safe, and all of these things, all of these, like, empowering feelings, and, yeah, it all just crashed down when I just saw that I was home and he wasn't. It was not good. It was not good.

I'm Cynthia Overgard, owner of HypnoBirthing of Connecticut, childbirth advocate and postpartum support specialist. And I'm Trisha Ludwig, certified nurse midwife and international board certified lactation consultant. And this is the Down To Birth Podcast. Childbirth is something we're made to do. But how do we have our safest and most satisfying experience in today's medical culture? Let's dispel the myths and get down to birth.

Hi. I am so happy to be here you guys. My name is Taylor Taylor westenberger, and I am a mom of two. Now I'm going to be sharing my birth story for my first my son, who's now three and a half, he was born at 33 weeks, so he spent a month in the NICU, which was a trying time for all of us, but luckily, being my first, I was able to be there a lot and got through our breastfeeding journey and everything like that. So that's kind of where this story will take us. Okay, so why don't you begin by just sort of letting us know what happened at 33 weeks. Obviously, we're not expecting to go into labor at 33 weeks, so jump into your birth story from there. Okay? Because your pregnancy was uncomplicated, correct? There was nothing, nothing really, to share there.

Yes, yeah. So yeah, my first pregnancy, I think I was in this kind of naive little bubble, which is great to be there sometimes, you know, I just was I got pregnant, and I was like, Okay, we're having a baby. You know, there wasn't any, I don't know. I think I was just a little ignorance is bliss, kind of thing with things that can happen, which I think is sometimes a nice place to be. But anyway, the pregnancy was completely uncomplicated. I had no concerns. I mean, even first trimester morning sickness, like a week, you know? I mean, it was so easy. And then I had my baby shower at 33 weeks, two days, something like that. And then that night, I went to sleep, and I started feeling cramping. And at the time, looking back, it's so obvious, like, what those cramps were, but at the time, I just thought, oh, maybe I ate something bad. You know, at my baby shower we have, you know, food is sitting out all day, and you're kind of snacking. And I wasn't too concerned with what I ate as far as pregnancy. So there were like, little, like, little sandwiches, and you're not supposed to eat lunch meat, right? And I'm just eating on, like, whatever. So then I thought, okay, maybe I got sick, something like that. And so I just thought it was that which, again, the bouts of cramping were contractions. I just didn't know at the time. I don't think any 33 week mom would ever suspect it's really labor at that time. Yeah, also, 33 week labor presents a little differently than full term labor. It doesn't the contractions aren't the same, it isn't the same feeling for everybody. So it can be confusing. Yeah, yeah, it definitely was. And now, you know, looking back, not now that I've had to it, it was similar, but, but yeah, did not cross my mind. So I just sort of stayed in bed, and I even went to work in the morning, because I'm just kind of stubborn that way. So I just thought, just, just go, go about your business, get up, get moving. Went to work on Sunday about noon, and then when I got there, so I work in a drug and alcohol rehab center. It's an inpatient clinic, so we have doctors and nurses on staff, and one of my friends, who's a nurse and a mom, she's kind of like, are you okay? And when she asked me, Are you okay, I just started crying, because I was sort of holding things in, like, everything's fine, everything's fine. And as soon as she asked me, it just all kind of rushed in, like, I don't know, actually, so then I call, you know, the hotline for the hospital or the triage line, and they just tell me, come in, you know, let's, let's just check you out, make sure everything's fine. I'm sure it's nothing that sort of, kind of comforting conversation, but I just felt like something was wrong. But again, even still, at that point, not even a consideration that it was labor. I just thought something was wrong, which turns out, I think that was better that it was just labor. So I drove from work to the hospital, which is about 30 minutes away. And the reason for that, I live in San Diego. So it's not like it's remote or anything, but my husband is an ER nurse, and I wanted to deliver at his hospital because we, you know, we knew the environment. He knew some co workers. Obviously, he's not in L and D, but, you know, just a comfortable location. I get there, and I park my car, and I'm walking into the lobby, and, you know, multiple people. Along the way and are asking me, like, Do you need a wheelchair? And I'm like, God, I must look worse. All right, I must look how I feel. You know what I mean? People are asking or concerned. They got me in right away. And then I will share kind of a little tidbit, because this was February. Well, it was January, 31 2021, so where I was, they had covid protocols still in place. So when you walk into the triage section, you see just all of these men and partners in the waiting room because they're not allowed back until their spouse, or whoever it is, is in active labor. So that kind of was a factor in our story, because my husband couldn't be there. It's just I, just I, It's so upsetting every single time I hear one of these policies, it's like a crime against humanity to it is also crime to the husbands and to the partners, but to leave those women alone. I mean, how the heck is that justified? So you had to go in until it was clear you were in active labor. In some places disallowed partners entirely, right? Trisha wasn't that in the beginning. Some places didn't, like, absolutely unbelievable. So you had to be in, like, full on active labor when they could say, now he can be with you. Is that how this works? The very man who lives with you?

Yeah. So there's just a but. So it's kind of comical looking back. Like, you know, and my views were already very much anti that at that point and the whole time, essentially. So I'm already just like, pissed about it going in and seeing the waiting room filled with these people, and knowing that they're they're all mingling amongst themselves their bags. So they've got, like, bags of stuff, and they're just sitting there, and it's just so, like, what is happening here? So, but they take me back, and I at the time, you know, I call my husband, obviously going in, you know, as I'm driving down there, I'm telling him what's going on. He this is important too. He has three kids from a previous marriage, so he's kind of just like, chill about it, you know, he's like, everything was just very straightforward and kind of the typical hospital birth situation. And so I think he was just like, very calm, like, and he's a nurse, you know what? I mean, nothing really gets him riled up, which is sometimes a blessing, but sometimes it's like, okay, well, I think we need a little riling now, like, you know? So he was not concerned, and I really wasn't either at that point, but so we were just like, Okay, you stay home. He had all of his other kids with him at our house, so he was with his kids. And I'm like, Well, I don't know what's going on. I don't want you to get everyone else to their mom's house and then come down here and then we and you can't even be with me to just to sit in the waiting room, like, let's just, I'll keep you updated. We'll see what happens. So I go back to triage, and then they time out the contractions, and at that point, it's maybe, like, 4pm on Sunday, and I'm like, already three minutes apart the contractions and then, but I'm not dilated, and I'm a little bit effaced, right? So, like, things are shortening and softening, but not dilating, and so at that point they're kind of like, well, you're not an active labor, but, like, we don't really know what's happening. Sometimes you can, you know, women can get, I guess, I don't know if it'd be false labor contractions from being dehydrated, or, like, overly stressed, or like, doing too much, overtired, whatever it may be. So they're like, let's just keep you overnight for observation. We're gonna hook you up to an IV with IV fluids and kind of see if we can stall things out a little bit. I got a steroid shot for his lungs in case he was gonna come early. And that was kind of a plan, just like, let's just see. And so I get to the ant, they admit me to the antepartum wing, so pre lnd, and they just kind of tell me to chill. Things were still happening, but it was not as intense at all. So I just sort of thought, okay, that's, I think it's fine. Maybe it's gonna be fine, and I'll just be on like, bed rest for a few weeks or something. So that was where we were at like, 6pm on Sunday night, and I thought I would just go home in the morning. What happens next? So I just, I just told my husband again at that point he couldn't even be there, right? Because I wasn't in active labor, so he couldn't come see me. The protocols in place were, you know, you had to wear a mask, you had to, like your nurse. Obviously, the staff all was doing that too, but my nurse had only me on her like I was her only patient that night, and so she was very comforting and understanding, and she just let me not wear one, and she was very kind and sweet as far as that whole thing went, because I was really nervous about it. I just didn't want to be have that to be like a big stressor, especially since I was always already so freaked out, being like, am I gonna have this baby? Am I not? Is what's gonna happen? So that was really comforting, even though my husband couldn't be there, at least I could just breathe freely. You know, nighttime comes, I'm kind of just hanging out, like I said. It seems to be working to be getting the IV fluids, and then things sort of start to ramp up around, like one or 2pm I'm sorry, am so I'm not. I didn't sleep at all. And then my nurse comes in, and she's asking me just some questions how I'm feeling, and she's explaining to me like, we're not going to be doing cervical checks for you because we don't want to stimulate if you're in going. To go into labor. We don't want to stimulate that to go any quicker. And so I think for me, that worked in my favor, because they, I mean, she really just left me alone, and not in a neglectful way, right? Like, I mean, I did feel like I was in this weird place of not knowing what the heck was happening. But I think that worked for me because there wasn't this sense of, let's rush you to kind of get this done and, like, kind of in your face, in your space, wanting things to progress quickly. It was almost the opposite. So I could just be and she just came in. I don't even know how often, an hour, every hour, maybe it would be the opposite. They really are trying in those situations to get every day they possibly can that the baby stays in. So they are definitely going to want to do as few interventions as possible. Sometimes they even give medication to try to stop the contractions. But doesn't sound like that was offered to you. Yeah?

No, it was just the IV fluids, which did seem to help, and just kind of keeping me calm. But yeah, so they left me alone, which is great, and I wanted to have an unmedicated birth, but I didn't really have any information beyond that. I just, I had no stories of positive births in my life. Like, everything I heard was, oh my gosh. It's horrible. Telling me, like, you think you want this, but then just wait, just wait, just wait, all that. So had that in my head, but at the same time, for whatever reason, I just wanted to do it that way, but I didn't really have any skills or knowledge or like tactics to sort of back up how I felt about that. So if someone had been in my space, bothering me constantly, I don't think it would have gone the way that it went, which, you know, I was able to deliver that way. But I think because they left me alone, I was just like, Okay, well, what am I going to ask for? I don't know, like, let's just see what I can do. So I just stood up, I walked around. I was on my hands and knees a lot, on the bed, kind of leaning over the bed. Things got super intense, maybe around like, four or 5am and so I held that feeling of like, I feel like I need to poop, and I'm telling her that, and I didn't know what that meant. I'm just like, I think I just truly thought I had to go the bathroom, and she's telling me, No, I think this baby's gonna come, you know. So I called my husband, I think it was 5am I called him, and then things kind of get crazy in the hospital. So I hadn't been checked at all since that first time where I was not dilated. So they call a doctor, and he tells me, I don't know this person, right? It's just some random guy, and he's a doctor, but I don't know who he is. So he comes in, he said, Can I check you? Can you lay down? And I said, I can't lay down. You know, like I've been standing or rocking or swaying or leaning and I can't lay down. Like, what do we need to do this right now? And he said, Yes. And it's like, okay, well, what are you going to say? So I just laid down. He checks me in. It's at like, seven and a half centimeters at like, 6am I think it was. And so I'm not even in L, D, right? I'm in antepartum, so they kind of, there's just, like, this chaos that kind of erupts, like, oh my gosh, it's time, you know, we have to move her and and we're literally running down the hallway. I'm in the wheelchair, like she's running. We get to the room and nothing's set up. There's people just running everywhere. And so I get up out of the wheelchair, and I kind of kneel down on the floor because the bed doesn't even, doesn't even have sheets on it or anything. And she's like, the nurse is like, amazing. She's wonderful, she's nice, but, you know, she's like, don't push. And it's like, I'm just on my hands and knees on this floor. Like, oh my god. What the hell is happening? People running everywhere. Some the anesthesiologist team comes in for some reason, and I'm like, What? What is happening? And the doctor says, Well, maybe you want epidural to slow things down, because sometimes it can slow birth, slow labor down. I don't know if you guys have heard that before. Oh yes. The NICU staff is there, right? Because they know he's going to be needing to be transported. At this point, I'm still just standing up, and eventually the nurse is waiting for the doctor to check me again. I guess they're doing another cervical check. But the doctor doesn't come in time. So the nurse just says, You know what, screw it. I'm going to do it. So I lay down, and I'm at nine and a half. And then from there, it's, I don't know, five pushes, maybe, and he's out. The pushes are very much like the purple pushing situation, feed in the stirrups, all of that, which, again, not something that I was interested in doing, but I was so just like, did not have a voice at that moment, just because I I just wanted to trust what they said. So they just tell me, Okay, push, like, I'm trying to breathe out, right? Like, as I'm pushing, breathing out, and they're like, no, no, no, you can't breathe out. You need to push like this. The classics sort of hold your breath, make your face turn red, that thing. So I'm doing that because I don't know what else to do. And like I said, maybe there's five pushes. So how long is that in minutes? Very short. But during that time, the doctor cuts me, so he gives me an episiotomy as I'm pushing, or between the pushes, I'm not really sure, but what I am sure about was there was no consent there. So again, this person who I don't know, I'm birthing what ended up being a four and a half pound baby. And I still to this day, I've asked some other doctors I had, like, can you look at my medical record? Like, what. Would have been an indication to to do that in an emergent situation, I guess. But at the same time, you should still be given consent.

There's zero excuse for zero justification for giving you an episiotomy without consent. And also there is no explanation, medical explanation for needing an episiotomy in any part of the story that you have described at this point. I mean, it's completely just he wanted to, yeah, and again, like, this is a very small baby. Like, what could possibly anyway? So that happened at the at the time, I'm just, like, whatever, get my baby out. Like, honestly, like, just whatever He broke my water to that was actually, I don't know why, but it was actually a huge pain relief. Just the warm water was actually very comforting. And at the time, I didn't really realize, like, why would you be doing that again? What have you anyway? I think the push after those two things happened, my son came out. His cord was really short, so they couldn't even get him up to my chest. Still don't know if that maybe played a factor in it. You know, they cut the cord immediately, right? Like they're not wasting time with with him, which I understand. You know, he was in respiratory distress at the time, like the NICU is working on him. I am, like, completely out of not out of it, because I'm like, mentally there, but I'm just like, What just happened, kind of thing. So it was all so quick. He was born at 7:05am, and I think that very first cervical check, where I was like, seven and a half, was around six o'clock. But during this whole process, you know, they bring him over to me, like, Guy kiss his head, and then they're just gone, right? They're running away to the NICU, and then, like, 10 minutes later, my husband runs in, because he didn't make it right? He runs in, he gives me a kiss, and, you know, he's like, we got this, we can do this. Because he has no idea that the baby has already been born. Because I'm just so he's away. He came in to encourage you in labor, and he didn't realize the baby was already born, right?

Because the baby's not wild, yeah, he's already in the NICU So, and the nurse who brought him up, I don't think she knew, I don't think she knew that he didn't know, right? So she just like, Here you go. And you know, immediately he starts crying, like, just tears like, and then I just said, go, go. And he just run. Sorry. It's emotional. And he just, and I said, go to our go to our son. And so I just look, was like, I don't even need you just go. So he just ran, and he ran to the NICU to be with our son, which, you know, he had to be intubated my son, and he had to, you know, the initial, those initial few minutes, I think, were, I'm very glad that I didn't see it, but, you know, my husband was with him, and so he saw him right away, well, you know, within 10 or 15 minutes, but yeah, that moment I'll never forget, like the look on his face where he just realized that he missed it, and he wouldn't have missed it, like if those protocols weren't in place, like he just yeah, you shouldn't have to be able to assess where you are in labor, so you can finally, at long last, have your husband at your side, exactly. So never should have been put in that position. So now here you are, postpartum. You sound like you were healthy, despite a few unnecessary interventions that definitely seemed to happen. Your baby's in the NICU, yes, intubated, as a matter of course, like lungs weren't working optimally, but kind of normal for a 33 week old, decent weight for a 33 week old. So what? What happened from there?

So from there I, I got over to the NICU as soon as I could, right? I had some high blood pressures. So they were like, well, this and that, I'm like, no, no, like, you're taking me there now, or I will walk. So they were like, Okay, fine, you can go. So I was over there within maybe an hour and a half of delivering him and he, I don't know what to expect. I mean, he was very small to my eyes, but like you said, everyone was like, Oh, he's good size. Everything's great. But basically he just needed some support for breathing right away. I think that was like a day or two where he had the first intubated and then he had kind of like a little CPAP thing over his nose feeding tube. All of that stuff was kind of like the standard practice, because they don't have their suck reflex integrated yet at that gestational age. So I am, you know, the lactation support was great. I was given, you know, instructions on how to manually Express, right? Because he's not going to be able to latch at that point. So manual expression is starting. Pumping is starting. I'm pumping every three hours at Not, not right away, though, right? Because the colostrum so thick you're not really getting that out with the pump. So manual expression, pumping every three hours eventually, once my milk came in. And then I was at the NICU with him every chance that I could be. But I was only there myself for three days, and then I was discharged. So the discharge looked like or the return, you know, between, obviously, he had to stay there. So I went home that first night and all of the stuff from my baby shower was still up and, like, in my house, which, looking back, it's like, why didn't I ask somebody like, take up, take this stuff away. Because coming home without your baby is so surreal. And in a. Bad way, like, you know, walking through the door, especially seeing all of the stuff, like there was balloons on the front door, baby shower, presents everywhere. I was feeling all of this ecstasy, almost in what happened for the two of us, and he came out safe, and all of these things, all of these, like, empowering feelings, and, yeah, it all just crashed down when I just saw that I was home and he wasn't. It was not good. It was not good. But because of covid protocols, I couldn't this was a positive thing about the protocols, I will say no one else could come, other than my husband and I, which was good in our situation, like we just went during the day, I went mostly, was nice not to have, like, oh, When can I see the baby? You know what I mean? Like, that wasn't even part of the question. So that was a weird positive. But yeah, I just spent every day, you know, basically morning till night, at the NICU, and then I went home and slept and did the whole pumping routine at night, and during the day, I just did skin to skin with him, and tried to keep up as much of that, like good bonding, with getting his temperature control better and his respiratory control control better, and his heart rate and all of that stuff that they get from like literally being on your body as much as possible. And we just did that all day, unless he was unless I was out, like, down at cafeteria feeding, or unless he was he had to do some, I think, a couple days of Billy lights for, you know, jaundice. Billy Rubin, yes, jaundice, thank you. I was like, hypnobirthing via, but there's something else, some other thing, same thing, yeah. I was like, there's a normal work.

You're the NICU. Sounds like they were very receptive to you doing sort of the kangaroo care type, yes, model of helping him. Because not all NICUs are that way. Some are very restrictive on how often the mom and baby can be in contact.

They were amazing. I will say there was a couple things that they I didn't like, but I think that's what you're going to find everywhere. No, they were extremely, I mean, extremely breastfeeding friendly, to the point where, if I was someone who didn't want to breastfeed for whatever reason, which I wasn't, they would probably be annoyed, like, that's how proactive they were, which was amazing. I'd love to say that's how informed they were, yeah, and the importance of breastfeeding, and I hate to say that out loud, because there are women who truly want to and can't for some reason. I mean, I I've had, I had a client once, a young woman with a double mastectomy from breast cancer. I mean, I always think about these women when I say that, but nonetheless, that is the optimal situation, and you always want them aspiring toward what's optimal. And if a woman can't breastfeed or opts not to breastfeed for whatever reason, she we should still simulate it. We should still put her baby at the breast. We should do everything to get as close to that experience as possible. It's in the best interest of the baby's health. And when a baby is at in the NICU, you want to increase as many of those things as humanly possible.

Yes, yes, they were fantastic about it. I mean, to the point where, when we were discharged, which was four weeks, almost exactly, they were like, We think he would have been here longer if he weren't holding him all day, every day. And it was like, such this, like, reassuring thing about what we were able to do, which, again, he was my first. So, like, my personal first, so I was able to just be there, right? Like, I didn't have to go home and care for another baby, which, thank God, because that is a dilemma I would not want to have to deal with, where, you know your split, your your heart is in two places. Mine was in one place. And so I just Where else would I be? And that kind of helped our breastfeeding journey, right? Like every time I was there, I would latch him, and then I would he would finish off with the feeding tube. For a while, that was the case, because he couldn't even get the the mechanism properly for sucking from the bottle. So, and then I would pump and like, do the whole thing again, and then eventually he was able to get some milk from the bottle. So he'd start at breast, and then we do the bottle, and then we'd finish with the feeding tube. And it was just this progression, progression, progression, until he had to. There was some amount. You know, NICUs are focused on data, right for a lot of reasons they need to be. So there was a certain volume. I don't remember what it was that he had to be able to take by bottle only before he could, you know, that was one of his like graduation things.

At what point were you able to start putting him to the actual breast, not necessarily for feeding, but just having him latch and suckle like within a couple days, he was able to latch, even though he wasn't doing well, not able to latch, per se, but we were trying that ASAP. I mean, once he was once His breathing was stable. So yeah, they were incredibly wonderful and supportive about breastfeeding and me having him on my body and all these things. But then there was this weird division away from that mindset when they talked to me about sleep. So they had one of the good things about the NICU, you have all these specialists coming in to help support you physically while you're there, which is amazing, right? You have a OT, you have PTS, you have lactation support, all this stuff. Amazing. So we had some support from. A PT and an OT. So then this conversation kind of comes up of, like, I think she was talking about sleeping in the bassinet, and like, at what age you want to stop doing that, or start doing that, or where the baby's going to sleep, and kind of that whole, I guess, realm, I don't know. And she then proceeded to tell me this, I don't want to say graphic story, but I mean, she did not hold back on fear mongering, is what I would call it. Now, at the time, I was just like, oh my gosh, this is a horrible story. I was not educated on baby sleep whatsoever, whereas now, like, that's part of what I do for work. So I would have asked more questions, had I known what I know now, because she just said, Oh yeah, we had this nurse here, you know, and she slept with her baby, and the baby died, and you can never sleep like that. You have to put your you know, and then she goes over like the Safe Sleep kind of, I don't want to call it rhetoric, because it's not, but this horrible story with nothing other than like, so don't do that, or else, you know, you're putting your baby at risk.

What questions would you have asked now that you know what? You know? Yeah,
so I would have asked her, you know, well, where were the where was this dyad sleeping? Because that's a huge question, right? Like, did they fall asleep on the couch? Did they fall asleep nursing? Did they fall asleep in a chair? Were they in a bed? Where were they? Right? Because that is the hugest question, right? When you are, like, haphazardly, accidentally co sleeping like that's where you see a lot of problems arise. Whereas, if you have someone who is making an intentional choice and has purposely set up a sleep space with safety in mind, with bedding in mind, with clothing in mind, with temperature in mind, with, I mean, with all of that, that is a very different situation. So I would have asked her that, because to this day, I don't know, like, I don't know where this cup, where this mom and baby were, you know, and she kind of made this a point to say, and this was a nurse, you know, so, like, she knows what she's doing, but this still happened to her. But I mean, if you're in the medical community, especially, you're not going to be given this education on how things historically and globally usually happen. You know, we have this sort of, like, egocentric mindset of, like, how we do things, like in the US or Canada or like Western countries, and so you don't ask the question, well, can these things be done safely? Is it really just don't do this? Or else, I think when you're talking to any uninformed person on almost any topic, they're going to get very black and white. Yeah, she obviously didn't know much about co sleeping, and really shouldn't have commented at all, or she should have been the first to say, look, I really don't know much about it. I know there are obviously proponents. I know there are risks. If that appeals to you, definitely make sure you do your homework or get the right support from a consultant, but to just say these scary things and to convert the entire discussion into something that's black and white is is just, is only something a very uninformed person can do. It's like saying this a pregnant woman, whatever you do don't birth at home, or whatever you do don't birth in a hospital, like you can't this. You can never make any of these claims about anything to women. And I'm sorry, because this is obviously something you've grown to be incredibly passionate about. And I'm curious to hear how you went from getting that scare tactic to becoming a certified sleep specialist now, right? Like, what, where, where did you realize that was the wrong thing to the point where you now embraced it so much. Yeah. So when I was home with my son, he was very sleepy right in the beginning, like he was four weeks old from birth. But, you know, 37 weeks adjusted, or whatever it is, you know what I'm saying, he was still in that sleepy newborn, because he still should have been inside. But then he kind of started waking up, and he's not sleeping as well, and so I find myself terrified to sleep with him in the wrong way. I'm thinking of this story. It's replaying in my head. So I in the middle of the night, I'm triple feeding as well at this point, so I'm latching him, bottle, feeding him, and pumping every three hours, including at night. So like you're tired and things are insane, and I found myself falling asleep after those sessions, sometimes with him on my chest, swaddled, so I'm in bed, he's swaddled on my chest. It gives me goosebumps thinking about that, because that is so unsafe. This is so interesting. You were so afraid to officially co sleep that you ended up being so sleep deprived that you inadvertently ended up doing unsafe sleep practices because you were horrified away from co sleeping officially.

Yeah, so my premature baby, I'm sleeping with him unsafely, right? Let's just nail home again that this is how accidents with co sleeping happen, because, we are so afraid, because we do not get proper education, because we all end up somehow falling asleep with our babies. Yeah, results of sleep deprivation, which could maybe have been prevented somewhat with good education around. I'm safe. Co sleeping, yeah. I mean, I will die on that hill. Like, no matter what someone says to me, I will die on that hill. Like, you need to tell people how to do it safely, otherwise you're being negligent, whereas you think this parent's being negligent by making this choice, no, because at least they're educated, at least they can set themselves up for success. What's really happening is they're mostly just sort of trying to protect themselves. I'm not saying they're doing it selfishly or intentionally, but they but it is because they're they know. We all know, if you've been a mother, we all know you're going to end up some night somewhere, yeah, somehow, with your baby on you. If we are only saying do not do it. Never do it. It's always unsafe. You're really doing the service, yeah? Well, and even now in the co sleeping community, for lack of a better word, which is really just kind of like some of us on Instagram, like, even though we're educated, like, there's not some accredited source to provide this information, because anyone everywhere, the AAP, any sort of medical authority, is going to tell you you're wrong. So it's this really weird area to be in, but even within that community, when they talk about NICU babies and premature infants, it's still like no but in my mind, that's where you really need to be super proactive about the education, about the safety and the protocols of how to do it the best way you can, because these babies, especially, are going to want that closeness, especially if they've been in an incubator for however long they're they're craving that connection. Yeah, tell us a few points about what you learned about safe sleeping habits with a preemie? Yes.

So again, the preemie part of it is super, like I said, even in the CO sleep community, super gray area, people don't like to talk about it. I like to talk about it because I am a proponent of co sleeping, and I had a NICU baby, and I co slept with him, so I like to bring it up, even though people don't want to hear that. Um, but anyway, so with a with a preemie or not, like you're going to want to set up your space with out really any thing around you, right? Like you're going to want to pillow under your head. I like to have a pillow behind my back, between my legs, something like that, for support. Because you want to curl your body around your baby. So the cuddle, curl, you guys have probably heard of it, especially for a newborn, that is how you're going to sleep with them. And if you're breastfeeding, you're naturally going to sleep that way. Anyway, that's where your body's going to turn. And then they are breastfeeding, so they are going to naturally gravitate towards your breast, and all of those factors are going to keep them at breast level, whereas sometimes, like a formula fed baby, for example, is not going to have that same tendency to look towards that scent, that smell they could, you know, shift down a little bit, shift up too high, things like that. So that connection breast to their body, and then their body facing towards your breast. And then you want a firm mattress. You don't want some sort of, like Tempur Pedic, super soft, cushy thing, in case they roll, were to roll over something like that. Clothing for them, you want them lightly dressed, so they don't overheat. Same thing for you, lightly dressed, not a bunch of layers, a big sweatshirt, things like not a sack, and definitely no swaddle. And they're unswaddled and on their backs, or on their side if they're feeding, yep, exactly, exactly. And you know, my my son and my daughter, they always tended to sleep on their side towards me. I felt comfortable with that once they got a little older, rather than, like, fully on their back. But yeah, so you don't want them on their belly, and then you want your body around them, so your knees are pulled up, and then your arm is kind of like this, and you have this protective barrier around them. You don't want them in the middle of a spouse.

What do you tell mothers when they say that they're afraid of sleeping in this position because they're afraid that they will roll onto their babies?

So I tell them that the positioning of their body will your positioning prevents you from rolling over. Your knees pulled up like I said, your arm here like you can't roll over like that. You can't. The other thing I always like to remind mothers as well, is that they don't roll off the edge of their bed for a reason. Yeah, at night. I mean, when is the last time you rolled off the side of your bed? You don't roll off the side of your bed? Yeah, because you're aware. You are aware that there's an edge. You are aware that there's a baby. So, so it was an interesting story. You had a premature baby, you ended up with a vaginal birth, but NICU nonetheless, because the baby was premature and it all went so well up until their lack of information on sleeping, which sent you on this path. What? What? What does your first birth mean to you and what? What did that whole experience do for you or teach you? Or what do you tell women?

First of all, if anyone ever asked me about like, I'm scared to give birth, I always, always, always, always, always tell them, you can do it. It's amazing. My entrance into motherhood was very difficult, but it gave me this viewpoint that was just like. I can I can do this like I felt so confident in what my body could do and what my baby could do. You know, getting through this incredibly difficult journey, and getting him to exclusively breastfeed, and all of these things kind of also gave me that confidence. When I looked into like, how to adjust how I was sleeping with him, I was like, I trust myself. So I was scared about what these stories that I heard, but ultimately, I was like, No, that is not my story. That is not what I'm going to live in. I'm not going to live in this fear. I'm going to live in those feelings that I had right after his birth, of empowerment and strength and, you know, just this entrance into motherhood that was just undeniable. And so I'm going to carry that into my journey, rather than this fear of wondering if I'm doing it right or not doing it right. I knew on those nights I woke up unsafely. I said, this isn't right. So then when I made the choice to get educated and make a different choice, I was like, this is right. Like everything in my bones, this is right, and I think his birth let me have that confidence, and I didn't do it by myself, essentially meeting without my husband. And if I didn't, kind of have to get through it, because there was no other choice other than getting through it, I don't think I would have had that resolve that was just so, so strong. I music.

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So you had a second baby, and I'm just very curious, did you carry that baby to full term?

I did. Yeah, she was born at 39 one.

Was there any explanation for why you had your first baby prematurely? There

is none. To this point we there's some theories, maybe, like, maybe the short cord, maybe this, but no, there's no, I think they call it precipitous labor, when it just progresses normally, like there was no I thought maybe it was a cervical thing, because I'd had two leaps, which is another story. I can't even get into it, so I thought maybe it was like an incompetent cervix, but that that labor progression looks much different. So it wasn't that. And, you know, with my daughter, I did go see a specialist, and they kind of kept an eye on me and checked the cervical link all the time, and I did progesterone supplementation. So it's hard to say, but yeah, I carried her to 39 one. Yeah.