Shift by Alberta Innovates
Shift by Alberta Innovates
The circular economy unplugged with insights from Alberta Innovates' Mehr Nikoo
On this episode of Shift we begin to explore Alberta's innovative approach to sustainability through the lens of the circular economy. We explore concrete projects that transform waste into valuable resources and discuss how individuals and industries can contribute to systemic change.
• Defining circular economy and its relevance
• Alberta's statistics on waste generation
• Two critical pillars of circular economy
• The importance of innovation in recycling technologies
• Addressing built-in obsolescence in product design
• The role the bioindustrial and circular innovation program plays
• How individuals can participate in sustainability efforts
• Future outlook for sustainable practices in Alberta
Listen to find out how we can all play a role in shaping a more sustainable future!
Shift by Alberta Innovates focuses on the people, businesses and organizations that are contributing to Alberta's strong tech ecosystem.
Alberta is forging a path towards sustainability by turning waste into resources and advancing bioenergy solutions. In this episode, we're going to dive into some of these innovative projects tackling plastic recycling, renewable fuels and the circular economy. What's the circular economy, you ask? Well, I'm glad you came by, Sit back, settle in. Welcome to Shift.
Jon:Today, my guest is Mehr Nikoo, Program Director of Alberta Innovates Bioindustrial and Circular Innovation Program. Mehr, it's a pleasure to have you on today. How are you?
Mehr:Good Thanks for having me.
Jon:Yeah, no, this is great. You know, I've always been intrigued and a fan of this whole motion of circular economy. And just to give a bit of background, because our regular listeners will have heard this expression in one of my previous interviews with Ken Doyle from Tech Access Canada, where he said the circular economy is really going to be something that Canada is going to be able to play to its strengths. So in this one, you know, I'm hoping we can dive a little deeper into what the circular economy is and what your program involves and just kind of flesh that a bit. So why don't we start right at square one and I'll get you to describe what the circular economy from your perspective is.
Mehr:Sure, I think before we can talk about the circular economy, we need to step back and think about how our economy is mostly operating right now, basically so the way it works. We extract raw materials, we make different products, we use them and then we dispose them. So that's called a linear economy. Where do we get our raw materials from? From the planet Earth, and then our planet is actually intelligent so it can rebuild itself. As we are using these materials, these resources. The planet can rebuild itself, but with the speed know that we are extracting these materials Right now, it's 60% faster than the speed the planet can rebuild itself With the way everything is growing, including the population. By 2050, we are going to need three planet Earth. One is not going to be enough for the resources that we are using. That's the first thing to keep in mind okay, so by 2050 you're saying yes.
Jon:Now, when we're talking about those natural resources, can you be specific with what you're talking about? Is that?
Mehr:is that trees and oil and gas, and everything, any raw materials that we are using any raw materials yeah, for all the products we are not talking only about nature for the products, everything that we are making and, on daily basis, we are using at home, in the office, we are driving our cars, like minerals, metals, you know, plastic, like everything that even and even fossils, fossil fuels, things like that. So fossil fuels?
Jon:So we're using that quicker than the earth can replenish it. And things like fossil fuels well, that's hydrocarbons based off of dinosaurs who we all know, you know, have.
Mehr:It's going to take some time.
Jon:It's going to take some time, okay. So yeah, sorry, now I think we're clear. So 2050, we need three earths' worth of resources to maintain our appetites.
Mehr:Exactly. And then on the other side, we are generating all this waste. Where do the waste ends up? If you are so lucky, you live in a jurisdiction that you have access to like a proper regulated landfill, majority of your waste is going to go there, and there are so many issues with landfills. You know there are big source of emissions, including GHG emissions, and then if you're not so lucky in the jurisdiction that do not have proper landfilling, the waste can go into the water, forests, farms, you know anywhere. Basically, you just name it and then some again.
Mehr:It's been estimated by 2050, there is going to be more plastics waste in the oceans than fish. That's going to be a lot of waste we are talking about, and it's interesting to know where we stand in Canada regarding waste generation. We have the highest generation of waste production per capita in the world. In the world, yes than any other countries, and just listen to the numbers 36.5 tons per person per year is the waste generation in Canada. The second country is 26.7. And the third country, that is, the US, is 25.9. So not only we are the highest. Just look at the gap between the first and the second.
Jon:Right, that's significant. Think about this.
Mehr:Yeah, something we are Think about this yeah. Something we are doing, and it's not just environment. Think about the economy Again. ECCC reported in 2016, 88% of our plastic waste was landfilled. That's equivalent to $7.8 billion of lost opportunity.
Jon:So it's like to $7.8 billion of lost opportunity, sorry, and when you say lost opportunity, that's those resources, those waste resources that you're going to flesh out a little bit later, that feed into the circular economy.
Mehr:Exactly Because you know that's the ways that can be transformed to resources, transformed to resources, but it's like we are dumping dollars in our landfills because that's value that we can bring back to the economy and use basically, but we don't right now. So that's where circular economy comes into play. So circular economy has two pillars, at least in my point of view. There is a very like wide definition. People have different understandings of circular economy, but the way we understand it, it has two pillars. The first one is to value your resources, because you want to make sure you're saving this and we only need one planet, not 1.6 or 3. So what happens is, with this circular economy, basically, you reduce how much you're wasting and you're using. You reuse the way you're making these products are more durable and you can repair them. Maybe you can share something that is waste for me, maybe it can be applied by someone else All these different basic ways that you can use to make sure that you're using your resources.
Mehr:Still, a lot of that is going to end up to become waste. What you would do with that waste. Again, try your best to bring back some of that waste back into the economy. That's where recycling is mentioned, and it's not just limited to plastics. A lot of other things like metals, minerals all of that can be done. That's how circular economy works and in the perfect definition of circular economy, it's going to be like a waste-free world, even if it's not perfect, if we can limit, and then any step in the right direction still is. Something important is we have to like every single one of us can contribute. The last thing about the circular economy also, I want to connect that to the climate change, because that's something we all see now. What's happening everywhere basically, and we are concerned about so many technologies are trying to reduce GHG emission. If we follow the principles of circular economy again, the studies have shown that by 2050, we can reduce the global GHG emission by 40%, obviously because we need less extraction.
Jon:Right, okay.
Mehr:And also less GHG emission coming out of the waste in the landfills. All of that all together is going to be like 40% of the global GHG emission.
Jon:Wow, you said a number of. I was frantically writing notes because you said a number of interesting things that are really compelling. One of the first ones was if you're lucky, you know your jurisdiction will have a landfill program and, to your point, canada's producing so much waste per capita that the majority of that is going to a landfill. But in a landfill we're losing all of those resources. We're not we're losing all of those resources, we're just essentially throwing away things that have opportunity to become something else. The second thing, or another thing that you mentioned that really kind of piqued my attention was this notion of reduce, reuse, recycle.
Jon:Recycle is very much the last thing we should do and you know, it makes me think of I don't know when, but sometime when I was a kid, when plastic pop bottles first came out and the and the pop companies were like well, I don't worry about it, you can just recycle it. You know, so they could just produce all this stuff and just recycle it. And then people, consumers were thinking oh, it's going to get used somewhere. You know what? Plastic pop bottles were probably reused for pops. We now know they in some instances are used for carpets, but there's so much waste that there's not a lot of post-consumer recycled products out there for consumers to buy, and how do we become aware of them.
Jon:But I'm getting ahead of myself there, I what I want to talk about now. Next is to dive into what your program explicitly is doing at albert innovate, so the bio-industrial and circular innovation program. So now we've we've established that you know what the circular economy looks like and the pillars. So now what is our program doing to get industry and companies to focus on that?
Mehr:Yeah, so our program has three focus areas One is bioindustrial materials, second is bioenergy and third one is circular economy.
Mehr:So circular economy is part of the program and the type of projects that we are supporting and for us we have limited that to plastics. So circular economy of plastics, or PCE we call it for short, doesn't mean that we do not value the other aspects, like if it's recycling of minerals, like critical minerals for example, even carbon capture and utilization, it can be covered under circular economy or environmental impacts of all of that together. The reason we have limited to PCE is because there are other programs that are looking into these areas, like we are part of the division that is called Agriculture and Environment, and there is another division, clean Energy, that is called agriculture and environment, and there is another division, clean energy, that is covering, for example, city, us and critical minerals and for environmental impact, and that's another team in our division that is called, like, environmental innovation. We just want to make sure that we are not overlapping each other and then provide more support to the innovators, you know.
Mehr:So that's why our Seco economy is really plastics and overall, for the full program, it's basically any technology that can use some sort of biomass or some sort of waste, mostly municipal, certain types of ICI, so industrial, commercial and institutional waste Going to different type of products or renewable fuels.
Mehr:That's the full picture of the program. Regarding the circular economy of plastics or PCE for us, you know, we do believe that recycling is part of it, but a lot of people think that that's the biggest one, like that's maybe the equivalent circular economy to recycling. That's not the case for us. We have a holistic definition If you are changing the design of your product to be like more durable, let's say, if you're removing some of the materials that have problems to be recycled at the end of life, or changing the design and also recycling technologies. Even we have a project that is tracking is more like data-based technology that is tracking plastics through its life cycle. These are all different projects that we are supporting for us. And biomass, we do believe that bioplastics and when we say bioplastics because there are so many different definitions of bioplastics for us it means that the plastic that is using biomass as feedstock, so it's not equivalent to biodegradable. The projects we support they are biodegradable bioplastics, basically.
Jon:The projects you're supporting are biomass, biodegradable products.
Mehr:Biodegradable biomass-based plastics basically Okay, the little mouse one, but basically feedstock comes from biomass and at the end of life they can be composted. They can be biodegraded much faster than conventional plastics, basically.
Jon:Okay than conventional hydrocarbon plastics, Exactly Okay, and that's fascinating. But there's something I just the third point that that sparked my interest here, and you didn't say this, uh, this phrase, but you implied it by you know how do we make products last longer? You we've all heard the phrase built-in obsolescence. You know, um, your washer, your dryer, which has got a thousand constituent plastic parts to it, you know, breaks down after two years of use, and you know whether or not that's the manufacturer that's deliberately doing that. So you have to go and buy a new product remains to be seen. But how do we work with industry and and massive manufacturers like that to to kind of is there such a thing as built-in obsolescence? Do you believe in that? Is that kind of? Is there such a thing as built-in obsolescence? Do you believe in that?
Mehr:We do see that trend. Everything that is designed right now is for like the lifetimes are getting shorter and shorter and shorter. That's something that is intentionally designed for us to spend more money and buy more. I agree with that part and maybe that goes back to the first principle and the reason that the way we are working with industry because if everything is happening the way it goes, basically we don't need any changes. Market is about money, so they make the products in a way that they can make more money. The only thing that can change this behavior is a little bit of, maybe consumer demand or pressure, meeting some sustainability goals, things like that. But the more important part are regulations, policies. If industry is forced to follow some policies for example, federal regulation of banning single-use plastics or, in Alberta, extended producer responsibility no, producers of plastic, certain type of products, it's not just plastics but single-use plastics and papers and so on they have to make sure that they collect some of the waste and they send them to the recycling facilities.
Mehr:That's when now everybody is thinking you know, it's very interesting the way we have seen the shift in our program, because four years ago, five years ago, was very different.
Mehr:Suddenly, after all this conversation in the province and in the federal government and globally, united Nations now brought all countries together to do something about plastics waste. Now we see a lot of demand for our program because that's where innovation comes into effect, because now everybody needs to do something different. Our focus is not on business innovation, it's on technology innovation and mostly like lab scale, pilot scale, bench scale type of thing. And also we work closely with Emission Reduction Alberta or ERA that are working at higher scale, closer to commercial application. But it's very interesting to see all this demand for this type of projects and market for projects. Still, it's a little challenging for smaller companies, especially startups, to raise the money to raise because we only support up to maximum 50% of the project total project cost. But it's a good thing for us to see this demand and hopefully we can see some of these technologies moving to the commercial application, not just to stay at the research.
Jon:Right, right. So you're saying over the past five or so years you've seen a real marked kind of refocus on that circular economy direction.
Mehr:Oh, yeah, I can share this with you 2020,. I went on math leave. When I wanted to leave, I prepared some documentation for the person that was covering for me. Also, there were some slides kind of promotional slides for a program project that we were working. I had a very small comment at the end, like the last slide plastics question mark because I started hearing some conversations around it. Ten months later I came back everybody's talking about plastics Wow, many associations. I've never seen such a big shift. But yeah, that was very interesting because I was away.
Jon:It was very noticeable to me right, sure, yeah, it's absolutely at ten months. To see that is is quite exciting and sobering too to see the world is thinking about things like that. Now let's go back real quickly. You said there were three focuses to the to the program. You said the circular economy, plastics, bio-industrial and biomass. Is that correct?
Mehr:Bioenergy.
Jon:Bioenergy, Okay, Bio-industrial and bioenergy. So now and I know we'll talk a little bit about this as we get into talking about stakeholders and partners and stuff like that but and you had just kind of alluded to the fact that the program will give up to 50% to a company what sort of startups are coming to you? How far along, like we've often heard this expression TRL, technology readiness level? Where are the companies on that TRL when they come to your program for funding?
Mehr:So, based on our program guide or description, we support TRL 3 to 7. But it's not that straightforward all the time. Sometimes we have to really work with the applicant to understand where they are, because there are different type of projects that come to us, obviously, and we are working with so many different type of stakeholders. We have projects with academia it's usually lower TRL, like University of Alberta, calgary. Right now, regarding plastics, we don't have any projects with University of Calgary, but mostly U of A. Nait is one of those groups SAIT and with NAIT actually, because they got the big funding from Heartland Polymers and it's called PREA, plastic Research in Action. So we kind of leveraged that funding. Now we support the project with them.
Mehr:Beyond academia there are sometimes smaller companies, like startups. Startups usually are not too low trl because they need to be at the like closer to commercialization and revenue potential basically, and it can be recycling like a project right now that is recycling like hard to recycle plastics waste into cinder blocks to be used for construction industry. We have another one that is removing PVC from flooring because PVC is such a like a nasty kind of plastic or polymer there are better replacements for it and like the other one I mentioned that is tracking plastics waste is a consortium of different stakeholders. It's resin producers like Nova Chemicals, it's recyclers City of Edmonton, city of Calgary so many different groups that are involved in that and so it can be even big industries and also small, medium size of industries big industries and also small, medium-sized industries, like one recycling facility that got funding from us to expand to food-grade recycling content, because that's very important right now. Food-grade is something that is very hard to get and has a very high demand in the market.
Mehr:Also, we support ecosystem building. It's not just about projects. We support ecosystem building. It's not just about projects. For example, one of our funding went to, say, the other one went to what we call BPIC, so basically it's bioprocessing. I don't remember the exact name, but it belongs to the Ministry of Agriculture and Irrigation. They provide a lot of research kind of thing, and that was very interesting to see the synergy between bio-industrial research, bioplastic research and conventional plastic like petroleum-based plastics, basically Because it's the same type of equipment, same type of characterization, analytical instruments needed. So, yeah, these are different type of stakeholders, depending on the project, the type of things we do.
Mehr:The other thing also is about studies that we do.
Mehr:Sometimes we just do studies like a white paper kind of format, or like one we did was a techno-e, technical economy analysis of bioplastics in Alberta Again was co-funded between Alberta Innovates and the Ministry of Agriculture and Irrigation to look at the potential for this industry in Alberta. The other one, like we have two other studies that we have supported and our subsidiary, innotech Alberta, is doing and it's really looking at it's more like a gap analysis of the recycling technologies to see where the innovation exists, because that's what we are all about innovation and it's very interesting with Innotech because they have also noticed the value of cycle economy and they have a lot of capabilities regarding that, not just plastics, also mining minerals, ccus, all of that. And now we have formed a working group to see if we can expand what we are doing and how InnoTech can support some of that innovation. And because the capabilities they have, the expertise, the facilities, all of that, it can be like a one-stop shop. They can support different researchers, validation, development of projects, technologies, all of that.
Jon:It's a fascinating field when you sit back and you just think circular economy and reusing materials, redeploying them for some other purpose that have already been used once. It's actually. We've all heard the expression. It's a no-brainer, but why haven't we? Why didn't we start this earlier? Was it just because we had a glut of fresh feedstock for whatever they're like? Oh, it's never going to run out.
Mehr:Yeah, I think it's very interesting to say this is not the only one. Everything else is happening. It's we start something, go halfway and then we feel, oh, maybe we should have started differently. Then we need to go back to the thing, but a lot of that also, as I alluded before, it probably comes from market pressure and the economy trying to make money, you know, consumer.
Jon:Right, yes, yeah, that's essentially, at the end of the day, what keeps the wheels rolling. Let's step back a little bit, because now you've given me a pretty good sense of what the program is about. We've talked about some of those partners and stakeholders, but let's say one of the questions I had is the key goals of the program. How do you define the key goals of the program?
Mehr:The key goals is really about supporting innovation and the innovation that can contribute to circular economy in Alberta and beyond Alberta. Obviously, our key focus is in Alberta, but even the projects come from outside of Alberta but they have some benefits in the province. It's something we would support. But ultimately, and even the education, sometimes making the right connections Like we also connect to different organizations like Recycling Council of Alberta or Alberta Plastics Recycling Association. These are different organizations that really try to promote circular economy in the province. So if it's education, we don't want to believe we are just a funding agency, Just signing the checks.
Mehr:A lot of times we really like, especially because the format we support projects is like a continuous intake. We have a lot of communications with different projects, sometimes even trying to advise them on what's the best way to set them for success, because we want to make sure they are commercial. I always say, if you have the best ideas for environmental benefits, if you cannot make money, you're going to go bankrupt and then none of those benefits are going to be realized. So how to look at all different components when you're talking about applied research, about commercialization, to set yourself for success. That's something we really try because at the end of the day, the projects that we support at research stage usually are not going to realize any benefits. It's the result of the commercialization of these projects are going to realize benefits.
Jon:Right, right Now try to support. Okay, no, that makes sense. But now when you say these kind of these bench projects, they're not going to realize any benefits, not yet, right, right, yeah, so it's at the bench for a while and then it works through. Commercialization is kind of that's towards, that's much later in the process.
Mehr:Exactly.
Jon:Okay, now let's see.
Mehr:For some of these projects. If sometimes they need a connection like, let's say, with industry, we make those connections. If there are different platforms like conferences, webinars that we can use for education, whatever we can do, we really try to promote and support circular economy of plastics, at least you know, and beyond, Like bioindustrial materials.
Jon:Bioenergy are other components of the program right, right, can you help me understand, help our listeners understand, what some of the successes have been? What have you uh like some of those key projects and innovations that have come out of the province that are uh that you can use to go?
Mehr:here's the circular economy in action and here's commercialization of an innovation coming out of circular, uh, circular economy for pce because it's kind of a new kind of area that you know we see a lot of, as I mentioned, we will see a lot of demand for research and innovation. Still it's kind of early to see a lot of demand for research and innovation. Still it's kind of early to see a lot of those projects coming into the commercial application. So that's really and we have to always think about that it's not that easy that for one technology you know, going through one project and next year is going to be commercial production, so many stages.
Mehr:To me, success is when our projects can also get funding from ERA, for example, because it means that they have moved to the next scale. And we do have two examples of that, two projects that we supported. One of them was the food grade one that I mentioned. The other one is the one that is using like is building blocks from hard to recycle plastics, for example. So we supported them for the lower tier activities and they got funding for higher tier and now from ERA. So hopefully, and especially the one that is a recycling facility is a very strong chance that they can become commercial because they are not pre-revenue, they already have revenue and they already have the market.
Jon:So yeah, sorry, is that? Is that the food one, or is that the brick of the uh?
Jon:the bricks food one okay yes, yeah, food grade plastics. Yeah, that's right, right, okay, so, yeah, okay. So then these they've received. These organizations or companies have received money from your program and are now receiving money from ERA and, in addition to you know, seeing it go to, you know, getting funding from another organization as well. There's also the notion in my mind of validation, where it's like, okay, other people are seeing the benefit of this too, you know, and they're willing to support it. And and uh, yeah, it's not just you and this other person making decisions for who's going to get what money, but it's uh, you know it's a pretty rigorous, uh, process I would imagine to go okay exactly and even like even alberta.
Mehr:Anyways, we supported one project that is making kind of bio-based straws and then when they came to us was very early stage and then you know, we supported like a feasibility just to see instead of importing all these materials from overseas, they can use biomass in the province. That project was completed, they applied again. Now they got another funding. So you know like now they want to actually use some of that, move to the pilot scale. So we do see a lot of these examples that they are going through the stages and this company even has, like the market right now there are another one that is not pre-revenue. But instead of importing raw materials now we are hoping we can use Alberta feedstocks.
Jon:Yeah, that's really cool. So, do you see a lot of that? I'm kind of going off script here a little bit, but you know, when you're at the head of this program seeing people come in and going, going, you know this is the feedstock I need. Oh well, we just happen to have, you know this, this feedstock over here, made in alberta, that you can use. Is that a fairly common occurrence, or is it? Uh?
Mehr:it is and at the same time, we want to make sure they understand the challenges. Because it's so easy to say there is enough biomass in Alberta. We do know that we have agriculture industry, we do have forest industry, but always accessing these materials is not easier. So what are the logistics? Do they have? And that's what we always ask them have you talked to anyone that is providing that biomass to you? Do you know how much you can access to? Because even there is some limitation on the transportation? It's not like you know, because transportation a lot of GHG associated with that, things like that.
Mehr:So there are so many different factors that they need to and that goes back to the education to understand exactly what your project needs, because it's different from paper when you move to the real world, right, what are the logistics? What's the cost associated with that? All of that is something that we try to work with the applicants make sure they understand and they can present a good case before we approve funding for them.
Jon:Now let me I'm going to throw you for another loop here if you don't mind, but I know you have some experience with this organization. But when I think about feedstocks and getting the appropriate feedstocks and the logistics and all that, perhaps we could use them as an example. But Forge Hydrocarbons Dr David Bressler's work out of the University of Alberta. So now he's and correct me if I'm wrong he's using biomass to create fuel for aircraft. Is that correct?
Mehr:Yes.
Jon:Yeah, so now, all of those things you talked about where does he get the biomass from? How does he, you know, go through the logistics? Can you use that as an example to kind of describe how that might all look and how it might play out in terms of timelines?
Mehr:yeah, that's. That's actually a very good example because we did support that project. It's not part of our circular economy, maybe it. Maybe it's kind of a sideway conversation, but because it's something that comes up a lot, it's waste to energy. And you know the conversation like kind of controversy around it that if waste to energy is part of circular economy or it's not, in my definition it's not.
Mehr:But it has its own values. We cannot disregard that. Why? Because it has the potential of reducing GHG. Right now we do have a Canadian regulation clean fuel regulation that is mandating to add biofuels to our gasoline and also to our diesel. So there is value to that and we have supported a lot of projects. So there is value to that and we have supported a lot of projects.
Mehr:Saf, or Sustainable Aviation Fuels, is a type of biofuels that we can see. There is a lot of conversation around it. Why? Because you can electrify your cars. You can use hydrogen maybe for trucks, but what would you use in an airplane to reduce your GHG emission? It has to be biofuels. You cannot electrify all the jets and you know airplanes Right. So SAF is something that has a lot of, or Biojet has a lot of demand and, yeah, david Bressler, we did support the project with them. And then they have FORGE, that kind of started with the whole study at U of A. That's, yes, one example and something they always mention, because they use the type of biomass they use. We call it like a lipid-based biomass. So kind of yes.
Jon:Yeah, right, okay.
Mehr:So they even did a study to have like a commercial plant, they need to have enough feedstocks within 50 to 100 kilometers because you cannot just transfer, you know, for too long, because the whole idea of biofuels is to reduce your GHG. If you're transporting or the access, logistics, all of that, then it can really affect your carbon intensity.
Jon:Of course.
Mehr:That's something I didn't even consider.
Jon:But I guess, yeah, if one of your uh goals is to reduce ghgs and then you're going well, we need to get this feedstock and we need to transport it all the way from I'm just throwing something out there from quebec and they have to drive all these, uh, you know these fats in. Well, how many, you know how many uh pounds of greenhouse gases are you? Well, you know what's the volume of greenhouse gas you're you're using to to get that feedstock to. Uh, you know, to your point of, yeah, right, right, okay, yeah, that's fascinating, you know.
Jon:And and this is an aside and maybe this is one we can we can flesh out a little more over coffee, but I know my listeners are probably going to go you, you had said that you don't regard that that use of biofuels or biomass to make fuel, as part of the circular economy. But that seems in in my mind to contradict kind of this notion of our original start of the discussion, where we talked about taking waste and just throwing it in a landfill. So how does it not fit your definition of the circular economy?
Mehr:Because you know again, the perfect situation is you bring waste and then, for example, we have a technology called chemical recycling. So basically you can recycle plastics back to the feedstock, like you know, pyrolysis oil then you can use it to make new plastics. So you can use it forever. Right, even if not forever it's not 100 percent, but high percentage of that is going to go back to plastic. So we call it closed-loop recycling. Sometimes, with mechanical recycling again, you can recycle for several times. So that's the idea when you're recycling your products, it's not just one-time use. Basically you're putting them in a loop. I understand again, it's not the perfect word, but that's the idea of circular economy to bring it back, not just to burn it as a fuel.
Jon:I get you Okay, okay. Because you're using it that one time to burn as combustible. Now it's not in that loop anymore. Exactly, I get you Now it's not in that loop anymore, exactly. I get you.
Mehr:And for me that sometimes I don't want to get into that controversy because whatever you name it, it has its own values and in the real world it's something we need and it's the potential for GHG reduction and for a certain type of waste, if you think about it food waste, manure coming or carcasses from animal farming how can you recycle them? The best way is to use a technology called anaerobic digestion to make biogas and then replace your natural gas or make renewable natural gas. You replace your natural gas, so you're using it for waste management. At the same time, there is a lot of ghg reduction when you're using this or pulp and paper. Industry, no, is using a lot of the forest residues. After they do all the manufacturing, they have residues it's all biomass and they burn it to use as source of heat electricity.
Mehr:There is a lot of value Instead of burning natural gas. You know it helps them on the financial side, environmental side, all of that. So there is a lot of value and we see a trend. It's very interesting. Now all these companies that are using bioelectricity now are talking about carbon capture and storage. So we call it BIC, it big bioenergy and ccs. So basically, they want to remove their co2 and they can easily go net zero, even negative. So you know it's a lot of value in what these guys are doing, but exactly is it? Does it fall under? Secular economy is a little gray and something that I try to avoid. To get into the circular thinking and you know, whatever you want to call it, there is value, but it's not the type of technology that we would consider to support as part of circular economy. It's just a different category.
Jon:I get you Okay. No, I think that's perfectly clear and it's that closed loop versus while they are re-using something, it's almost a one-off Right here. Yeah, okay, you mentioned and now you've all of a sudden become my expert on all things waste. You mentioned anaerobic digestion. Now, in Edmonton, as my Edmontonian listeners would know and I believe they do this in calgary as well, potentially in other jurisdictions in alberta that I don't know we compost all of our food waste into the little green containers and then they're picked up once a week and that goes to an anaerobic digester, I believe right.
Jon:I don't know you become my expert. I'm really putting you on the spot.
Mehr:Because I know, I'm aware, that the City of Edmonton got funding to build, actually from ERA, to build anaerobic digesters. I'm not sure what's the capacity of those. If everything is going to those facilities, at what capacity they are running right now. This kind of information I really don't have. It might be some of that is going to composting, some of that is going to anaerobic digestion, but yes, that's one example that it can be used and it can basically be source of energy instead of going to waste, and I would prefer anaerobic digestion over composting, to be honest, because you can use the energy and the fuel basically that is coming out of the waste, but composting you can still use it in some applications, but it's not replacing any type of fumes.
Jon:Okay. So is that because when you're putting something into an anaerobic digester, it's one of the byproducts is going to be heat yes, that you can use for something else so that exothermic reaction can be diverted to something else. Plus, you get a product at the end which could be compost or whatever it is, whereas composting you're just putting into a container on your home property. You have no way of capturing the heat. And then you, once it's composted, then you add it, like you're getting two, two features with the anaerobic digester, or am I just making stuff up?
Mehr:No, it's right. So basically, when you're doing anaerobic digestion, you know that's what happens in landfills. What happens? Because when we have biomass and it's exposed to oxygen, to air, it reacts and then makes CO2, but if it doesn't have like contact with oxygen, becomes methane. That's one of the problems with landfills, because we have methane release. But then if it's in a facility like an Arabic digest, like in a digester, you can collect that methane and then use it. It's like natural gas. I see it's called biogas. If it's upgraded, it can be renewable natural gas. You can even inject it into the pipeline, blend it with natural gas and burn it. But the source is your organic waste, it's not fossil fuel.
Jon:I get you. Yeah, okay, okay. So yeah, when I said it's giving off heat, it's methane, yes, exactly Okay, wow, yeah. And you know, in the environmental and social impacts of of the circular economy, been in your mind from it feels like it's. I think you had said five years since you, you know, you had gone on on mat leave. You had seen this big plastic push 10 months later and now the economy.
Mehr:Economic impacts you mean in the industry just you know writ large economic impacts?
Jon:yeah, I guess for industry, because it's going to be a trickle-down thing. If industry is paying less for something they're uh, maybe the the cost of whatever product they're producing might be less true, you know it's.
Mehr:Uh, I think for industry it depends on which industry you're talking about, like if you're talking about the resin producers, because alberta is resin producers.
Jon:Yes, resin. Okay, what is that?
Mehr:we can say petrochemicals right production, so alberta is the second largest producer of petrochemicals. We are producing a lot of plastics, so yeah, in north america north america.
Mehr:Okay, thank you, sorry to keep interrupting no, no, yeah, it was a good comment I forgot to mention. So basically, you know, and for the industry, obviously, like circular economy, might be an added value, an added cost to them, but because they see a lot of demand from their customers, no, they have to like they have always started talking about that. They even offer formulations because, the way it happens, they are providing these virgin materials to the manufacturer to make different products. Now they are offering formulations that has some recycled content as part of that. So it might even be more expensive, but now that's what they are seeing, that that's the demand they are getting. Or they have started.
Mehr:You know, I know like, for example, nova Chemicals has started thinking about different type of polymers that they put for packaging, especially food packaging. No, you need maybe six, seven different layers, each one with different properties. One, maybe is avoiding oxygen getting to your food, the other one is controlling others. You know all different properties. If they can come up with polymers and instead of six layers they can use two, then it's much easier to recycle. You know things like that.
Mehr:So maybe short term would be some added costs for some facilities, but in reality it provides support for the recycling industry. There was a study the Conference Board of Canada did a couple of years ago. They said the recycling industry is a million-dollar industry, kind of a bridge between a $2 billion industry, waste management and petrochemicals. What's the reason? We don't see enough money and we don't see enough support for this smaller recycling facility that can support circular economy. Regulations like we see coming from, like federal, provincial government, can support this industry. So that's where we can see some of this, maybe economic value, smaller groups that now can catch up because now there is more demand for what they have, we can maybe expand. Hopefully we can see more money going to have like for recycling and then see different type of plastics actually get recycled, not just certain types.
Jon:Right.
Mehr:So maybe long-term we can see all of that, maybe in different format, not going to the same industries that are already rich. Actually, some others can benefit from that.
Jon:Right. But what you said moments ago about you were discussing the layers of polymers that are going into, and I think a light went on for me, and I'm assuming that's why certain items can't be recycled because they've got all of these different layers of plastic in them one to keep oxygen out of your food, one to keep the odors down, one to, you know, be a penetrant, not, you know, to protect the whatever it is from uv light. So if the polymer industry gets better and they can figure out how to reduce from six films, polymer films on the plastic, down to one or two that can do all of these things and that's fed by the recycling industry, well that's a win for industry writ large, I would think, because now you're you know you're having to produce fewer films for your, for your packaging. So I I think what I'm doing is hypothetically somehow supplementing your argument in an awkward sort of way.
Mehr:Yeah, that's true, Because then you know you basically need less. And I always say there is something called the wish cycling, so it's not actually recycling.
Jon:Wish cycling.
Mehr:Yes.
Jon:Oh, I do that a lot.
Mehr:Because you think, oh for sure, this is recyclable. But sometimes and that was one of the things we learned from the study that Innotech did actually, innotech team did that a lot of times it's not just the type of polymer that needs to be recyclable Different layers that you're putting together Maybe you're attaching some of that to metals or different type of inks, even labels that you're using, sometimes additives to polymers make them non-recyclable. It's not that easy to recycle and a lot of that comes before these materials end up in the recycling facility. We saw a lot of innovation potential in the sorting and cleaning and removing some of the inks and labels basically. So even separation of different type of waste has a lot of innovation potential, you know, because it needs to be a very clean, proper feedstock that is going to a recycling facility, basically to be processed. So yeah, so many different factors are in play.
Jon:Okay, right, so yeah, you can't take it and turn something into a feedstock. No, it's just got a little bit of paper on it, or it's just got a little bit of this or that.
Mehr:It's got to be pristine to some extent some of the contaminations they can remove in the recycling facility. Some of them are easier to come off. But one challenge they have because brand owners keep changing things. They figure out how to deal with one glue and the other day is a different one or the color of the colors that they add to their plastic. So many different things that happen. Yeah, it has to be. You know very certain type of feedstocks, especially with mechanical recycling. The chemical recycling I mentioned before has way more flexibility to deal with different type of feedstocks, especially with mechanical recycling. The chemical recycling I mentioned before has way more flexibility to deal with different type of plastics, but it's way more expensive and needs a larger scale. Basically, and.
Mehr:Alberta is not a very big province if you think about the population. All of that. That has a lot of the challenges with the cost of chemical recycling.
Jon:Okay that that has a lot of the challenges with the cost of chemical recycling. Yeah, okay, now it's interesting. Um, because you know the third component to this was, you know, economic, environmental and social impact and we talked a little bit about, uh, you know it's, it's what the market wants and the market is kind of that, that, that uh title for all of the consumers and the people who work. We vote with our dollars a lot of times and we vote for convenience quite often. I'm packaging a few ideas up here. This big change in the you know, in the 10 months when you were off to to see this, you know appetite for post-consumer recycled plastics or circular economy plastics.
Jon:Government plays a role in regulation. Um, we've seen what's. You know how some politicians can talk about. Well, we need smaller government, less intervention, less regulation. And as soon as you hear less regulation, like you know, I cringe a little bit because you know, if you just let market decide and people are just wanting convenience and less expensive, you know if, how do you see things going socially? People may want it, but if the regulations start to slip a little bit, will people keep going for it? It's kind of a maze of, a bit of a conundrum of how to move forward. I'm putting you on the spot and I don't I don't mean to do that, but keep that parked in your head. But because I think it fits into the next question where we're talking about you know, do you have tips for people, for Joan and John Q public out there who are, who are thinking I want to get involved. You know, and we've often heard well, you know, you go to the coffee shop and don't bring a reusable cup. What impact does one person have?
Mehr:okay, first, maybe, a quick response to what you mentioned about regulations. It's when I'm because I'm also working closely with the ministries Alberta, energy and Minerals and also EPA, and I'm happy that it's not my job to come up with these policies and regulations, because it's a lot of work to make sure everybody's happy and see different things from point of views of different type of people, different groups, different stakeholders. It's a very difficult job to come up and doesn't matter what regulation policy is at the end. Just you know, maybe that's going to legislature, that's the first step, but how this is going to unfold, how much is going to actually different groups are going to adopt it, how it's going to match with the real world, real market, real industry, is going to be a big challenge. That's just the beginning, sure, and then for each person, I think a lot of times I agree with that expression that we speak with dollars Because, as I mentioned, we see that demand and know a lot of brand owners, a lot of industries. They are trying to kind of respond to that demand from their consumers. I give you some examples.
Mehr:I have stopped buying certain type of snacks for my kids because they are using layers and layers of packaging. What's the point of all of that? Or making that flashier and flashier. All this making flashy means that they're using different colors. Maybe they're making this plastic non-recyclable. These are some examples. Or, if you can buy bigger containers, use your Tupperware. They're making this plastic non-recyclable. These are some examples. Or if you can use, like, buy bigger containers, use your Tupperware instead of plastic waste. Even when I'm bringing a snack to work, I rarely use plastic bag. Usually it's something I can wash, even at home, like freezing meat or chicken. I bought, like all these dishes, like glass dishes, basically, that I'm using instead of using Ziploc and throwing into the garbage. These are all very small things that each person can do in my mind and something that I really think that we have to keep in mind.
Mehr:It's the industry I want to mention, because it's an industry we all love At least I love but it has a very big footprint and it's fashion industry. So, if you think about this fast fashion and what's happening, the footprint so fashion industry is a second consumer of water globally after agriculture is responsible for 20% of wastewater globally. So think about it Like every second, one truckload of clothing ends up in landfills Something that we really need to think about. You know, do I really need that cute top or I have to buy it because it's on sale? Or do I have to keep changing what I'm wearing every season? Do I have to update my wardrobe? And even there are certain brands we know they are burning their products just to keep the cost high Things like that. It's really. They can make a big difference if we want to be a little more aware and it's not just the plastic that we see a lot of our electronics do we have to update our phones every time that there is a new one? Because, again, going back to the market, they want to make money. They always give you something to buy, but do I really need all of that? It's something that I think is something. It does not depend on industries, it depends on individuals.
Mehr:And the other thing also, I want to go back to recycling. That's not a proper way of dealing with your waste. We all love to see everything gets recycled. In Canada, only 9% of plastics waste is recycled 9%, only 9%. So what I put in my recycling bin, what I put in my green bin, is very important. Up to 15%, 10 to 15% contamination is manageable. Anything beyond that, basically, is ruining what what you have usually different, like I know, city of edmonton has an app. You can check where your waste belongs. It tells you if it has to go to green or black or blue. That's an easy way. If you are not sure, put it in your black bin. Do not contaminate the other two that have actually some applications.
Jon:So yeah, okay. So I think I wish cycle a lot, because I've heard that before and I went nah, I'll just put this plastic container in recycling, they'll figure it out. But you're saying no, if in doubt, chuck it out.
Mehr:But you're saying no. If in doubt, chuck it out. Yeah, first check your app or make sure it, it belongs before you put it and try to remove the contamination as much as you can yeah, right, or let me add something.
Jon:Let me add a couple of things to that. So, if in doubt, chuck it out. If in doubt, use it to put your leftover stew in into your fridge rather than some dish. And another thing is you know we vote with our dollars, but we also vote with our ballots, you know. So engage your politicians. You know, talk to your MLAs, talk to your MPs about what's you know what's important to you. If this is important to you, and see if it's important to them, see how they're going to navigate through the. You know the difficulties or the journey of all of this that we're talking about with the circular economy, if they see a role in it.
Mehr:That's a very good point. Yeah, I didn't think about it before, to be honest, but that's very good. You know, like when you see something like extended producer responsibility comes into play, or you know there has been a lot of work, like different organizations working with government, different stakeholders somehow you can show your appreciation. You know, I'm sure different people have different organizations working with government, different stakeholders Somehow you can show your appreciation. You know, I'm sure different people have different ways, but even following what's happening in the market, if there is a new funding, show your appreciation that this funding is going to support research related to this. So it's good to also support this kind of real, like tangible, activities that are happening. Yeah, yeah, and speak, as you said, with your folks, yeah.
Jon:Yeah, now, when you say support as an individual, do you mean go and buy those products?
Mehr:Buy those products, even show interest. I know we cannot. You know, if it's something that is important for you, not all of, because so much is happening we cannot follow everything, but if something is really close to your heart, like plastic waste is for me obviously, so I try to stay engaged of what's happening. If United Nations has like a meeting, that is in Ottawa, at least read the news, see what was the messaging. You know things like that Talk about it socially Exactly yeah.
Jon:Yeah, well, that's yeah. No, that's great, mayor. This has been a great conversation and I think I've taken you down a few different rabbit holes and I appreciate you for being such a good sport and not shaking your fist at me while I'm asking you all sorts of stranger questions, potentially. But what's next? Anything, anything coming down the road, what do you think is going to be the big thing for 2025?
Mehr:from my point of view, all all these exciting projects, because we still have applications happening. Era has a big call that now is accepting applications. Deadline is June 22. And I'm really excited to see what kind of projects are coming down the pipe. And I've already talked to some groups. I know they are putting application in. And I've already talked to some groups, I know they are putting application in. But all these projects and I always say it's research, even if you don't have the results as you expect, as long as you do what you have promised to do and then you have some learnings to share with others, at least to tell them what not to do.
Jon:Basically, Right, yeah.
Mehr:And then, or how to deviate from the original plan, do something else, maybe approach a new stakeholder, right yeah, innovation, all of that. Also, we see some funding for the actual infrastructure to expand what we have, and because this is a real issue we are all dealing with, we are going to all pay for it, the same as climate change we are all paying for it.
Jon:Right, yeah, yeah, I think you're right. So if people want more information, they can go to the albertainnovatesca website and type in Bioindustrial and Circular Innovation Program to get more info on the program.
Mehr:So, basically because there has been some internal changes and now we are going to some reviews and so on, we have not really updated for a few months now our website, but there is going to be a major change in April, hopefully after end of fiscal year, and our project library also. We have everything ready to go. We are just waiting to make sure everything is finalized and our fiscal year ends over all of that, hopefully. So April, May, we are going to update with a lot of information, examples of different projects, new program guides, new application guides. All of that.
Jon:All right, just in time for adventures.
Mehr:Exactly, yeah, that's a good point, yeah.
Jon:Well, Mayor, this has been great. Thank you very much for spending the last little while with me and telling us all about this wonderful program.
Mehr:Sure, and thanks for questioning and because I know it's. You know, when you start one way, there are so many different things come up. We don't always have time to explore everything, but even to bring them up and then thinking about that. If there are follow-up conversations, it's always exciting to have those, but thank you so much for the conversation. Lively conversation, exciting to have those, but thank you so much for the conversation lovely conversation.
Jon:Thanks for joining us today. As always, we can be found at shiftalbertainnovatesca or online. It's your favorite streaming service. You can also reach us at shift at albertainnovatesca. On behalf of everyone here, I'm john ha Hagan. Have a great day Until next time.
