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Ideagen Radio
Ideagen Radio
Greece's Sustainable Energy Transition & Geopolitical Challenges in the Eastern Mediterranean, 2030 Impact Summit
How can Greece navigate the turbulent waters of energy transition while grappling with geopolitical tensions in the Eastern Mediterranean? Join us for a compelling discussion with His Excellency Angelos Pangratis and our esteemed panel of experts as we face this pressing question head-on. We promise you'll gain invaluable insights into the delicate balance Greece must strike between rigorous green policies and tapping into its natural gas reserves, drawing lessons from Norway's experience. With a spotlight on the integration of renewable energy sources, the role of companies like PPC in electrification, and the public's resistance to new infrastructure, we explore pragmatic approaches to achieving zero emissions, including the potential inclusion of nuclear power.
Our conversation also takes a deep dive into Greece's burgeoning hydrocarbon research and the geopolitical challenges that come with it. Discover the latest developments, from promising new drilling targets identified by seismic surveys to the involvement of major industry players like ExxonMobil and Chevron. We address the broader implications of these discoveries on regional stability and economic growth, underlining the importance of strategic vision and innovative solutions in overcoming bureaucratic hurdles and private interests. This episode is a treasure trove of insights into how Greece can leverage its hydrocarbon resources for economic stability and national power.
Finally, we reflect on historical parallels, such as the exploitation of Athenian silver mines, and how modern strategies can lead to significant outcomes. Our panelists draw connections between ancient practices and contemporary energy strategies, urging Greece to harness its resources effectively. From the importance of public education and skilled workforce shortages to the necessity of strong defense and adaptive strategies, this episode is a thorough exploration of the multifaceted challenges and opportunities in Greece's energy transition journey. Tune in for an enlightening and thought-provoking discussion that promises to leave you with a deeper understanding of the intricate interplay between energy policy, innovation, and geopolitics.
#impact2030 #ideagenglobal #allilonnet
Angelos Pangratis: https://www.linkedin.com/in/angelos-pangratis-41502915/
Konstantin Papailiou: https://www.linkedin.com/in/konstantin-o-papailiou-433518294/
Leontios Portokalakis: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leontios-portokalakis-46a56956/
Ioannis Baltzois: https://www.greekradiofl.com/en/%CE%B9%CF%89%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%BD%CE%B7%CF%82-%CE%BC%CF%80%CE%B1%CE%BB%CF%84%CE%B6%CF%8E%CE%B7%CF%82-2/
Nick Lygeros: https://open.spotify.com/show/1Qys6QaQyZ7dWoXrWlBtXj
Spyrios Kiartzis: https://www.linkedin.com/in/spyroskiartzis/
ALLILONnet: https://allilonnet.com/
CIGRE: https://www.cigre.org/
HellinQ Energy: https://www.helleniqenergy.gr/en
Hellenic Institute of Strategic Studies: https://hellenic-ias.org/
View the entire 2030 Impact Summit: https://www.ideagenglobal.com/2024globalimpactsummit
And now please welcome His Excellency Angelos Pagratis, founder and president of Alilonnet, associate professor at the European Institute in Nice, france, former European Union ambassador to Argentina and the WTO, joining us now for a power panel discussion on Greece's energy transition to a sustainable future and geopolitical challenges in the Eastern Mediterranean region.
Speaker 2:This is the panel on energy transition and the geopolitical challenges in the Eastern Mediterranean. This is a profoundly important theme and we have an excellent panel of speakers. To start with, I follow the well-established idea-gen tradition where the panelists present themselves, starting with Mr Ligieros, and then we take the other speakers. So Mr Ligieros and then we take the other speakers.
Speaker 3:So Mr Ligieros, advisor in strategy.
Speaker 2:Mr Balzois.
Speaker 4:General Balzois, retired general, of course, president of the Hellenic Institute for Strategic Studies.
Speaker 5:Leodios Portokalaikis, surveyor, engineer, and I am a member of the board of directors in Hellenic Institute of Hydrocarbons Feliz me.
Speaker 6:Konstantin Papailio, electrical engineer and since 50 years working with transmission lines.
Speaker 7:Spiros Kertzis, coming from the petroleum industry, from Hellenic Energy, manager of new technologies and alternative energy sources.
Speaker 2:As an introduction, I will just ask a question that I want to leave for all the panelists. You can decide if you comment on this question, and this has to do with the choice that a country that has options of exploiting natural gas reserves has, and there are two extremes in the choices. One is to take the line of the green transition in a very strict way and say that this is incompatible with exploiting reserves of natural gas and all this should be stopped, or at least we should not have new exploration of new reserves. And the other extreme is the example of Norway. For our audience, our panelists who know the example of Norway very well, for our audience, let me just explain what Norway is doing. It's very simple. They are the world leader in terms of speed of transition towards the green future. They are recognized as such. We can have a lot of examples. They want to be the first country that introduces the end of, for example, of the cars of internal combustion. Example of the cars of internal combustion. They have a wonderful example of a platform of wind engines in the Northern Sea, the biggest in the world. This is a promising technology for the whole energy transition towards renewables and they are recognized in general. Without getting into the details, they are recognized as the leading country in terms of their probability to reach the real transition to green energy by 2050. The real transition to green energy by 2050. At the same time, it's a country that takes the option of exploiting to the maximum possible limit the available resources of natural gas. So Norway is supplying around 25% of the natural gas needs of the whole European Union. So it's a country that has made a profound choice we use the available resources as much as possible of natural gas to the full possible extent and at the same time, we are leaders for the green transition. So between these two extremes, somewhere most probably our own government, the Greek government, will have to position itself, and it would be very interesting to hear your advice and your opinion on how this should go.
Speaker 2:Now we take the opposite order from the presentation for our speakers and we try to have some time for discussion. At the end of the panel, Mr Kyriazis will be the first speaker. He is expected to talk to us about the renewables in Greece. There are some good stories to say about wind and sun, but there are profound questions. Mr Chiargy, we would like to hear from you about the strategy behind the progress that we have seen up to now. Where will we go, what the future of renewables will be in Greece Will it be hydrogen or offshore wind engines or others and what are the main challenges for this process? Are there worries or things that we need to be careful about in terms of proper management and the good process for this very important transition? Of course, Up to you, please.
Speaker 7:Thank you. Thank you for this. I will start from the very beginning, on the example of Norway. It's not black and white, meaning that green is something in between, and transition towards a low carbon future and economy and energy is part of this path. In fact, there is not a simple answer for everything. There is no silver bullet, as we say. There is always a variety of choices should be cheap, should be available, should be reliable and should also be ethical, like energy. In order to achieve all this, we have to invest, to invest money on many things, to invest a lot of knowledge, to invest on innovation, to invest on a new way that we see and we understand the world all around us. In fact, we need an holistic approach and a very nice Greek word is symbiosis Symbiosis of industry and the society, because, at the end of the day, we need also the social acceptance of all of this.
Speaker 7:Before going to the micro world of our area, the Eastern Mediterranean, I would like to see to present what are the big challenges we are facing today. And today we are facing a lot of geopolitical and business challenges. Consider that for us, a few years ago, it was easy to have alternative suppliers of hydrocarbons, and today we cannot import because of the war in Ukraine. We cannot import hydrocarbons from Russia. Just one year ago, it was easy for someone to transport a platform from Indonesia or Thailand or whatever going through the Suez. Today, because of the Houthi and all these war incidents that we have in this area, we have to go from around Africa. This means more money, more money for transportation and less alternative choices for this, because, apart from the cost, the capital expenditure we have, we have also to take into consideration time and sometimes, although something is cheaper in the eastern part of the world, we might go to somewhere else because we have guarantees issues, we have certifications issues, we have a lot of things. What we are facing today is an holistic instability which affects investments, which affects economy, which affects our business.
Speaker 7:But at the end of the day, what do we have? We have an increase in the demand on energy. That's the reality. We need more petroleum, we need more gas, we need more electricity, and these are facts. As you can see, the consumption of energy is increasing. Last year, the year before and going to the past, but we are facing an increased electrification of the world. The cars we are driving are now electric cars. They are electric vehicles. We are using more electricity just to heat our houses, just to you know, turning from burning natural gas or petroleum products into what? Into electricity. And we need to have this electricity, green electricity, with low carbon footprint.
Speaker 7:The case is that, using renewables, renewable energy, investing on photovoltaics, on onshore wind, on wind turbines that we install in the mainland or in offshore wind and the sea, which was a great example we had before Well, that's nice, but are we able to do it? Can we substitute all the quantity of electricity we need today that is produced in a dirtier way, with an extreme carbon footprint, into a low carbon footprint way? It's not that easy and we should also take into account another parameter nuclear energy that is not producing CO2. And is proposed as an alternative just to stabilize the fluctuation we have in the production of renewables, of renewables, well, renewable energy.
Speaker 7:In Greece and in the area, we have lack of interconnections, we have lack of grids, we don't have the proper infrastructure all around, we have limitations that are opposed from regulations. We have different legislations. Why? Because Greece belongs to European Union, bulgaria also. They have the same legislation, but if you go a few kilometers away, you will see that Turkey, for example, egypt, albania. They have another regime, less regulations, and this means that in a globalized world, we have, as an industry, to face this increased cost due to the regulations we have. And that's a very crucial problem. Probably, if you live in Denmark and you have competition from Germany or from Spain or from Slovenia, it's okay, everything is fine because you are under the same legislations. But if you are in the borderline of Europe and Asia, things are different. Also, don't forget something that energy has energy security issues, security of supply issues, and sometimes we say of supply issues, and sometimes we say, ok, we are happy because we got rid of the bad, I believe it, the bad Russian oil, that's OK, because they have this war, this horrible war in Ukraine.
Speaker 7:And, on the other hand, we will shift toward what Renewable energy. Renewable energy are photovoltaics. Where are they constructed? In China, okay, we will use wind turbines, wind turbines and then electric vehicles instead of internal combustion engines in our conversional vehicles. We vehicles, we have today what they need. They need raw materials, raw earths and rare earths sorry, as a raw material and some metals. Where are the majority of this? You can, they are all imported from china. So just consider the security of supply. It's crucial for Europe and also for our Western civilization.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you. An important point to underline is that, in fact, what we see already, we see situations where the result is not really sustainable. I take just a couple of quick examples. The Prime Minister of Greece said recently that what we paid as a country for the natural gas in 2023 was seven times what we had paid the year before. No doubt that the EU is suffering because we have the same phenomenon at the level of the EU in terms of prices. In 2022, it was a year of instability of prices. During different periods in the year, the prices of natural gas in the EU was, in average, 10 times higher than in the US, not 10%. 10% of difference at the level of the price of energy is already a very important competitive advantage. We're talking about 10 times. In the year 2023, we had a higher stability of prices, and the higher stability meant, for the same issue, that the prices in Europe were five times higher than in the US. Now, these are not sustainable situations. Very important correction is needed, because time flies.
Speaker 2:We move to Mr Papailou. Now, mr Papailou, mr Kyrgyz answered one of the questions that I had for you, which is the evolution of the demand of electricity. Indeed, this is going up. So if you can tell us a little bit more about the importance of the transition period, the role of natural gas for the transition period, and if you can explain even briefly I'm sure more people do not know the importance of the grid why the new technologies very often mean more connections, more files, why the grid is so important and why is this a factor very difficult to catch up with.
Speaker 6:Thank you, margelos. As I said, I was lucky enough to get, by chance, involved with transmission lines as a young engineer. First of all, this is a very exciting subject because it combines electrical, mechanical, civil and environmental engineering. And then, with dealing with that, you get in touch with a lot of great and interesting people. And actually in Greece, which is not so known, and I would like to take this chance to say it I have visited building lines all over the world. One of the best, if not the best company, electricity company was, and I hope still is, ppc they. This is a great company and I think in Greece we should consider ourselves lucky to have it and indeed the electrification of Greece, which is the base of more or less of development. A great job.
Speaker 6:Now you asked the role of the grid. We have a saying which says no transition without transmission, which means that, so nice it is to have renewables and to have great goals like zero emission, you need an increased number of interconnections because the energy coming from the two types of renewables the photovoltaics and the wind turbines is volatile, independent of the weather. The third type of renewables, let's say the hydro energy. This is extremely good for the base energy, but the other is very volatile. So the grid needs to be stable. The frequency 50 hertz here, around 60 hertz in some countries like the United States needs to be stable within a very small margin and in order to do that you need a lot of interconnections which still today are overhead. This is the towers which many people, except the transmission engineers, don't like and say, oh my God, this is going to be in front of my backyard, no. So we have two issues. First issue is we have to greatly increase the grid, because we need that for the grid stability with renewables. Secondly, there are many objections to increasing the grid. So I can tell you stories that in many countries it takes up to 10 years to get the permission to build a new line. So what is the corollary of this? That we and saying we, I mean generously our politicians should put more realistic goals to just to preach like an apostle that by 2050 2050 will have net zero emission. It's unrealistic, including adding for many countries, in particular Germany, the biggest economy in Europe without nuclear power. This is, you know, what I see. I see that people in politics are motivated not by pure clear thought but by ideology, and this becomes dangerous. We, as engineers, have had another education. We have to solve the problems, so no transmission lines will fall down and no houses will collapse. So we are trained to be more realistic. So this is the first issue Be more realistic with the goals and consider all options for the energy production, including nuclear power.
Speaker 6:I am coming to the question about the natural gas which you said at the beginning. For me, there is no doubt that if we have a chance in Greece to exploit the natural gas, then we should use it, because there's no way to reach zero emission without a transition period. So you can say no transition without, let's say, natural gas. Another problem the industry is facing is and I think this is a duty of all of us we have no manpower. There's a fantastic lack of engineers, technicians, all over the world in this business. I am, as I said, I am still teaching at the university and try to educate young people, and I think this is a duty of all of us to make this subject attractive. So people not only become brokers and hope to make big money by the banks, but also become engineers and build some transmission lines and underground cables and substations. Okay, so I think this is one big challenge, another big challenge.
Speaker 6:As you said, the demand is growing. Why the population of the world is growing. The level of comfort is growing. Everybody expects to have air conditioning. When I was a young boy in the island of Andros, air conditioning was not available. It was practically unknown. Nobody thought, and we survived. I became that old without air conditioning. Now, today, people are shouting around where's the air conditioning? If there is a cut in power, everybody is in the newspapers first page In these days. In the island there was electricity from 8 to 12 in the night and everybody was happy. Nobody complained.
Speaker 5:But now.
Speaker 6:Okay. So, and to give you also another figure, the demand every 10 years for electricity increases by the consumption of the United States and the European Union added together. So you can imagine what does that mean it grows, if you're a mathematician, exponentially Correct. Power law, power law. So I think, in order to conclude I'm not sure how much time I have, this is a great idea of the words, but I should have noted what time I started.
Speaker 6:To conclude, I think there are two things to remember. We should be, on our goals, realistic. Secondly, we should include, as you already said, all options. And thirdly, we should make sure that the general public understands these problems and does not just bluntly and blindly object. We should explain to them and I think as engineers, it's not our biggest strength to explain we are not politicians but we should try to explain, and this is a great forum here to explain how these things are so much interleaved and disconnected that the people not just blindly object to every new transmission line. And in this hope, I would like to say thank you for being here. It's very exciting and I'm looking forward to hear what my friend Leontios has to tell us Thank you, Costas.
Speaker 2:That makes the second wonderful contribution to this debate makes the second wonderful contribution to this debate. Let me just add that there is no doubt this thing about have realistic objectives. It's a key thing, and you can see this in a spectacular way in what is happening with the objectives at the level of the European Union. We are in the process, at the level of the European Union, to put into question practically all the main objectives of the green transition that we have defined ourselves. So this thing is indeed something that illustrates the point that you are making and it's a fundamental point.
Speaker 2:Glad to move to Mr Portokalakis. Mr Portokalakis, you said I heard you saying in a different occasion that we cannot in Greece be proud of the results of the exploration of hydrocarbons up to now. I think it's something that is worth some explanation, and also the departure of companies like Total, repsol and others. So if we can give us a little bit of your feeling on this very important dimension and you also said that you have some recently observed encouraging signs, so we would be very interested to hear about those too. You have the floor.
Speaker 5:Thank you very much, mr Pagratis. I choose for the today's presentation this title the Latest Developments in Hydrocarbon Research Maintain Hope for Better Days in Greece, which I think includes the main meaning of this presentation. Hydrocarbon exploration in Greece from 1974 until today is not something that should make us proud in terms of the relationship between the capital invested and the personnel employed, with some of the latest poor results being first, the discovery of the deposit of prinus which, with the help of the foreign agent, produced until today approximately 120 million barrels and gas around 1 billion cubic meters of natural gas. Secondly, the discovery of a small hydrocarbon reserve in Katakoulo, at around 3 to 8 million barrels, which still remains unexploited. And thirdly, the discovery of an even smaller natural gas field in Ipanoumi, whose small size does not allow us to think about exploitation. Of course, we should not overlook the improvement of the relevant legislation of 1976 and 1995, as well as the last law of 2001 in 2011, which led modern foundation for the discovery and exploitation of hydrocarbons.
Speaker 5:Most people might wonder how it is possible that, after 75,000 kilometers of exploration of seismic lines and 175 drilling, so far there has not been any discovery of a decent-sized hydrocarbon deposit. What's wrong After 50 years, the answers are pretty clear. First, the policies and actions to exploit this wealth conflict with each other and are unstable, missing long-term planning and coordination. Second, unprecedented bureaucratic procedures of the state and justice which, with the enormous delays in processing, contradict the spirit of the exploration of these resources, which requires rationality, stability and speed. Third, certain private interests which, if they don't hinder, at least don't help to accelerate exploitation. And while the above events might give us a sense of pessimism that nothing is being done and that, combined with a recent focus on renewable energy, we should now give up any effort, quite unexpectedly, in 2016, the exploration research gains interest and despite the fact that from 2000, no drilling has taken place in Greece, many are advocating that this might now happen, and the signs for it are the following.
Speaker 5:First, in 2014, the announcement of the second round of concessions of six exploration areas, as well as 20 offshore blocks, led to the entry into the country of foreign oil companies such as REFSOLE, energion, total, exxonmobil, as well as Hellenic Energy, which were granted areas for exploration. Second, in the same period, despite the obstacles presented by the excessive environmental sensitivities of various organizations, it became possible to implement a modern and pioneering aeromaggravimetric program, as well as an expensive geophysical program of around 450 km in the area of Epirus concession. With this data, drilling targets likely to contain hydrocarbons were clearly identified. Third, despite the withdrawal of the foreign companies Total and Repsol from the concession, by invoking various reasons, but mainly triggered by the delays of the Greek state and also by the reformation of the area of the sea blocks in the Ionian and Western Crete, in order to acquire a wider interest, it became possible to grant offshore fields to the companies Energion, hellenic Energy, as well as ExxonMobil, which revived and strengthened the interest which at some point was in danger or diminishing, which at some point was endangered or diminishing. Four, at an impressive pace in recent years, age of physical programs have been carried out in two and three dimensions, enriching our underwater and geological knowledge but at the same time identifying potential oil targets whose planning drilling is expected to confirm the existence of the expected fields. Fifth, the investigation in the Epirus concession which, after the withdrawal of Repsol, was undertaken by Energen alone, has already identified the first location of the drilling which, if it were not for the new delay by the environmental organization, would have started already. October is a critical point in time because the exploration periods available to the company end at this point and a potentially negative core decision will reverse all the promising momentum that has been created.
Speaker 5:Sixth, the new supplementary three-dimensional seismic survey in 2024, this is the most critical is of particular interest, and especially its focus on a special area of 2,000 square kilometers from the vast area of the concession of 40,000 square kilometers of the sea blocks of Crete, which was not foreseen because a detailed two-dimensional 2D survey had already been carried out in 2023. This fact proves that the companies that have a license to exploit the area ExxonMobil and Atlantic Energy have already identified, with the previous two-dimensional 2D seismic survey, interesting and perhaps important targets in this area, which this further 3D research, which has been done in 2024, not only clarifies them, but also gives the best bathymetric visualization of the seabed which, at these great depths, is necessary for the creation of underwater facilities that might need to be created. Seven At the same time, the announcement of drilling by Energen and Eleni Energy in offshore blocks 2 of Ionian and Kiparisia is soon expected, since the time of processing of seismic data collected has already passed Eight. Of seismic data collected has already passed Eight. The presence and the latest expressed interest of the giant Chevron in the area for partnership. If confirmed with this, participation in these concessions will make next steps more meaningful.
Speaker 5:Nine, finally, the new activity in the Prenus area, with the effort to develop the newly discovered small deposit in the Epsilon area to the west is also worth mentioning, in which relevant facilities are already being developed for the execution of the drilling and its further exploitation. Such recent overall interest has revived a fallen interest for the discovery and exploitation of hydrocarbons in our country, and it is expected that the future planned execution of at least four drillings, which is expected to lead to at least one discovery, will contribute to our country for the next 20 years in terms of substantial profits from the exploration of the field, increasing employment rates and with benefits that will arise from the synergies that will be developed. So the challenge is before us. We owe it to the next generation not to let this new opportunity go to waste and to wisely take advantage of this divine gift that nature provides us, and indeed without being forced to allocate our resources, since this is a concern of the companies that will have undertaken the development and exploration. Thank you very much.
Speaker 2:Great. Thank you, mr Protokalagis. I take it that this answers also to my first question, whether you would be rather in favor of exploiting, where possible, the natural resources available, and I would only add that certainly Greece needs some optimism and some positive news. So we hope that the good indications that you talked about, they will be realized and we will have good news in that direction. Mr Baljoy, we expect you to do something very simple, to give us a kind of overview of the geopolitical challenges as they develop in the Eastern Mediterranean. I mean, it's almost an impossible task, but we trust our generals, so we would like to have a a certain overview, um, which is because, of course, obviously very important aspect of what is going to happen in our region, and we are particularly interested to the aspects that have to do with national defense, obviously, and the budget requirements to do with national defense, obviously, and the budget requirements that they are the result of this evolution and the pressures that this creates on limited resources. We are looking for resilience and for mitigation of risk.
Speaker 4:And your wise advice, mr Balzoy. Thank you, mr Ambassador. Thank you also for the invitation to participate in this excellent conference. I'll speak as a military man and as a geopolitical expert about the challenges in East Mediterranean Geopolitics. According to Professor Mazis, it's the science that methodologically stands, describes and predicts the redistribution of power. All that is happening in international policy today is a redistribution of power. Edraïmon Aron determined the definition of power pursuit power as the ability of an actor to guide the behavior of the others or to impose his will on the others.
Speaker 4:In geopolitics, the world island is consisted of Europe, asia and Africa, with special importance and value the heart of the World Island, which is Eurasia, the famous heartland according to Michael Spikeman. So Nicholas Spikeman, american geopolitician, defined the geopolitical value of the Rimland in relation to the global value of the headland. Eurasia Rimland is the eastern Mediterranean. Observing the war island projectively from the air, let's say, we find out that its center is the Mediterranean Sea, the center of the center is the eastern Mediterranean Sea and the Aegean Sea, and from Crete to Cyprus is the center of all. So the geopolitical value of the region is enormous and perhaps the most important in the whole world. It is the area that unites three continents, that controls three sea choke points Gibraltar, suez and Hellespont and controls the main train routes to and from Europe, africa and Asia. We are talking about the most important geopolitical region, which recently increased its importance to the maximum because of the recent discoveries of hydrocarbons. So the geopolitical and geoeconomical value has launched and, unfortunately, the challenges have increased.
Speaker 4:The Eastern Mediterranean geopolitical conflicts have jeopardized the full realization of its potential to develop and export natural gas and gas. Industry experience from 2019 until today, combined with the devastating impact of the COVID pandemic and the war in Ukraine, have upended the future of gas exploitation in the East on the global economy and energy supply. As analyzed in the recent study by the International Institute of Strategic Studies of London, the energy ambitions of the countries of the Eastern Mediterranean face several important challenges. Near-term conditions, mainly European energy security concerns in the wake of Russia's invasion in Ukraine, have given to Eastern Mediterranean gas a boost. The most optimistic forecast for the size of regional natural gas reserves describes them as a new source of differentiation for European markets. So the combined amount of proven natural gas reserves in the eastern Mediterranean represents a fraction. And the eastern Mediterranean Sea cannot become an energy hub, it says the ISS. I'm not specific to discuss about this. So let's go to the real challenges.
Speaker 4:For our country, for Greece, the big challenge is Turkey's revisionist policy. Turkey, in the last decades, and especially in the last years after the 2016 coup, has accepted and integrated into its foreign policy the 19th century theory, the Leben Schraum, that was first adopted by the Nazis. Turkey, making use of a unique and illegal theory which violates every concept of international law and completely ignores UNCLOS, united Nations Convention of the Law of the Sea, the so-called Blue Homeland, arbitrarily divines the Aegean Sea and the Eastern Mediterranean in the middle, thinking they belong to it, to Turkey. Turkey disputes the Greek sovereignty of the Greek islands, despite the clarity of the articles of the Treaty of Lausanne, where the borders of the two countries were precisely set. It declares the illegal casus belli, the illegal and unilateral right of Greece to extend its territorial waters to 12 nautical miles, as mandated by Anglos. It is still invoked in that the Greek islands, even the large ones, such Crete, euboea, cyprus have no continental shelf, no exclusive economical zone on the whole planet. The only islands in all over the world that they don't have this are the Greek islands. Why? Because they say that Even Turkey, within its neo-Ottoman daydreams, has invited its strong influences with its military power and military bases that it has established in its neighboring countries, such as Iraq, Syria, cyprus, libya, et cetera. For me, this is the biggest challenge, not only for Greece, but also for the European Union and, I would say, all the West world. For Greece, it is a crucial necessity to create the required deterrence by force so that it can face successfully the dangerous and revisionist Turkey. And don't forget what happens in Cyprus 50 years under occupation, and nothing says that only for Ukraine.
Speaker 4:Coming back to the IISS study, the authors consider two key elements of risk for the future immigration and terrorism. Immigration and terrorism, local or important, are perceived as destabilizing factors. According to the authors, since the 7th of October 2023 and the start of the war between Israel and Hamas, the political risk for the entire region has increased significantly. More broadly, the competition of the countries of the region for the new transcontinental connectivity projects, for example, the opportunity for electricity transmission that will connect the networks of Africa, asia and Europe, is also described as a risk factor.
Speaker 4:Machiavelli, in his hegemon, considers that the state should have, in order to survive, should have a strong army and strong allies, taking in consideration seriously the economy. The pillars of the power of each country are defense and security, second economy, third policy and fourth, cultural information. The first two, defense and security and economy, are the components of the hard power, and to have a strong military, we should have a strong economy. In conclusion, I believe that all the available resources of Greece, especially the energy resources, should be made available to the nation for the creation of a capable and growing economy which will be able to support the defense and security, which will be able to support the defense and security.
Speaker 4:Energy projects that cannot be implemented immediately or have many difficulties should not be presented, applied or to try unsuccessfully for implementation. At the same time, national, cost-free energy solution should be used until the final solution. It is very bad policy to act in this way, to close important, necessary energy units as the power generating lignite plants, for example Ptolemaida. And finally, I am skeptic concerning the announced sea parks in areas that are proven to be offshore blocks, as west of Crete, that they are considered certain and proven to have hydrocarbon deposits, and the Turks took the opportunity to make the same in pure Greek confidentiality. Finishing, my question is if can be combined hydrocarbon exploration with sea life constraints. Which is what is more important the survival of a nation or the survival of marine species? In my opinion, first the nation and then the protections of the environment.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much. Thank you, mr Balzoy. Very fundamental questions points raised. Thank you for that. I will only add that the basic explanation for the problems of our country compared with our eastern neighbor is that, in fact, we are trapped into a stagnation situation. You know, just to give you an indication, in 2009, greece was, in terms of GDP per capita in the EU, around the middle, around the middle. We are now the poorer country of the EU after Bulgaria, and even with Bulgaria. The dynamics are going in a catching up them catching up and making Greece the poorer country finally in the EU. And whereas during that time, turkey made a very impressive path, particularly in building its industrial capacity, national production first, capacity, national production first. The real power of the country in the international scene is the basis of the real power, is the power of its production capacity and somewhere there in the process we created an imbalance that is going to be very difficult to recuperate.
Speaker 2:Mr Ligieros, you are the last of this impressive list. You have a lot of wisdom presented by the four previous speakers, a lot of strong common sense. I must say it's an impressive set of messages that we received. We look now at you and we want to hear from you what about the strategy? Is there a national strategy on the Greek side on the overall evolution of the country? Can you tell us a little bit more about the ExxonMobil and the effort that is taking place in terms of exploration of national gas deposits near Crete? And can you give us an overall opinion on how much the energy transition that is taking place is really offering a kind of transformation opportunities for Greece in terms of industrial development and technological development? Because that's the essence. What we often forget or people do not realize enough is that a successful energy transition in fact requires very important investments, public and private, and without the proper investments required and the restructuring required and the uplifting of the production capacity, then this green transition can be a trap.
Speaker 3:The floor is yours. Oh, thank you. I imagine that I have to answer also to the first question at the same time.
Speaker 2:The question is open to each speaker. Okay, with this time. Well, we can have some flexibility.
Speaker 3:Oh, okay. So firstly, I think that we should define some notions, especially in strategy, because we talk about the goals, about the target, but a goal is not a strategic notion. In fact, you can choose a goal, but without strategy. So the problem is how you get a strategic goal. You can think about that in a meta-strategy and we need a vision. So the problem is that we think that dreams are predictive, and it's wrong. So we need to stop dreams and to think with a new intention, with a vision, and this vision needs strategy. So the problem, especially in Greece, is that we think that everything can be solved by politics, and it's wrong. So the problem is politics can only create problems, but it's impossible for it to solve them without strategy. So we accept, in fact, politics, we accept the power of economy, but at the end we need strategy and energy. So it was a nice joke about transmission, but because I think that when you master a field, you need to also, you need also transmission, you need to bring the knowledge to the other guy and to say to him you know, you know some things, but not the core. And in Greece we have a paradox because we create but we don't use it very often but rarity, flexibility, it's possible, in fact, to use them I mean strategy and energy to create the good framework to solve problems, the good framework to solve problems. So we need to stop to focus only on politics. And the paradox of energy is, if you want to use less energy, you don't need economy, you need intelligence, which is totally different. So that's why you have to invest in brain power. So we made they made a lot of jokes and I think that the best power in the field of energy is the brain power. And it's impossible to use it in politics, because in politics you have to explain to all the people what it's impossible to explain. So we don't need that. And in strategy, we are working in the invisible part of mind and sometimes for many people, they think that something which is invisible does not exist. But strategy, in fact, for the common people, yes, indeed, it doesn't exist, but we don't need that, we need only the result. The result is that we need more money to consume less money. It's like a paradox, but we love paradoxes in Greece, so we don't care about that. So imagine a paradox we need more energy to consume less energy. And this paradox is solved by Norway, because in reality, there will be more green before the others without being green. There will be green just at the end, just at the end. For the others, with less intelligent people. They think that to have a green goal, it means that you need a green strategy. No, it's more black and more invisible strategy and at the end we will get a green result. So we don't need to take account of the result to define our strategy.
Speaker 3:So now you are talking also about the national strategy. I mean, a national strategy always exists, but I think that you are talking about a good national strategy, preferably, yes, yes, so this one does not exist always. So just to define it, for me, a good national strategy is a strategy which is compatible with grand strategy in the theory of Riemann, because we belong to this framework and when it's compatible, you can apply it and you can use it to change what? Your mind or the reality. You can use it to change what your mind or the reality. For simple people, it's always easy to change reality with the others. For few people, it's better to change your mind. So if we change our mind, we will change the reality, and this reality will be the next reality. The next reality will be more intelligent.
Speaker 3:We need smart solutions, not just solutions, because if you want just a solution, you can go to Andros and go back in time and use only the wind, but if you have the future in your mind, you need now a smart solution. Why? Because a solution, a classical solution, will be the framework of many other problems. So your question is do we have a solution to solve our problems? And the answer is always yes, but the problem is that we create more problems. So I think that your real question is can we solve our problems without creating new problems? The answer is no. We need bigger problems to solve little problems. It's a Greek way of thinking. So when we create big problems, for example a crisis, we are very innovative. We found new solutions. Wars are very innovative.
Speaker 3:So the problem is that we think that the target of strategy is only peace. No, no, the framework of strategy is war. So the problem is how can we use war, for example, in Ukraine, in Israel, and to change, to have a game changer, without? Because we are talking about energy and we have many specialists in this field. But the problem everything has changed in 2022, but not due to the national security. Due to the national security. It's not due to the national strategy. It's due to the fact that someone thought that it could change the reality and the reality has robustness, like the grid. So we have this plasticity, this flexibility, and we can find a new solution In Greece.
Speaker 3:Many people have problems In the world. Many Greeks have solutions. Many Greeks have solutions. So the problem is that the natural framework of Greeks is the world and not Greece. Greece is only the source and that's why we have Hellenism, which is a good way to think things, and that's why humanity loves Hellenism. It's not due to Greece. It's due to the fact that, with this shape, with this intention, you can bring to the others strategy, security, stability. Why? Because you are stable.
Speaker 3:No, in fact, we need harmony and in this framework, this is a paradox, but green is natural as a gas, so we need, in fact, natural green to have, at the end, a green without gas, so we can solve this problem.
Speaker 3:It's just a problem. It's not a paradox, it's not a trap, but we need to stop dreaming and to think in a more strategic way. What is important in the field of energy? And if we are talking about the, the energy of the present, it's too late. We need to think about the energy of the future and the consumption. So if we are thinking in this way, it's possible to solve it and we can do it. We will do it also with Exxon Mobil, we will do it also with the model of Zoll, because it was a revolution in this field, and we have many deposits of gas. The problem is if we have deposits of intelligence in politics, because you can have gas, as you can have a book, but you never read it and you say it doesn't exist. So for me, we can imagine that gas belongs to the future. So now it's time for Greece to also belong to the future, that's all.
Speaker 2:Very interesting reflection, as always, from your side. Can you reply the question? The initial question oh come on, I did it.
Speaker 3:In a more simple way, I think, because I was also on holidays in Norway and I always choose my holidays in a good place. You see, it's a good model. We don't need just to create everything. Sometimes we need also to follow a good idea, a good application of something, which is like a paradox. They are trying to be green, but they are not green. So I think if we have another color, we can have at the end a green, but for the moment I see a lot of red and the solution for red is always the black.
Speaker 2:Okay, thank you for all this. It's a pleasure, a contribution much appreciated. Time flies, time flies. I want not to summarize what we've heard. I think what we've heard is very precious. It's a matter of a study for everybody interested can get in depth. To the contribution of each one of our wonderful speakers. I will tell you as to conclude this. To the contribution of each one of our wonderful speakers, I will tell you as to conclude this panel in an old story from the time of Pericleus. Oh, we love that. Yeah, we all Greeks do.
Speaker 2:It seems that we have a stone, a marble, with writings in it from the time, even a little bit before Pericleous himself. That concerns the exploitation of the silver mines of Athens. Now, at that time, athens, instead of making it a public company and exploiting the mines, made a deal with a private investor, very much as we do now, in a kind of international competition of the time. They got an income from the private investor because of the mines. And then what did they do with these mines, the income of these mines? They had the wisdom to create the fleet for the Athenians, and this is the fleet that defeated the Persian fleet in Salamina. In fact, we have a historical example of a process which is very similar to the modern processes of exploiting the mineral resources at the time that allowed Athens to save Greece and the Western world from an Eastern invader who was very dangerous for the survival of our country and even beyond.
Speaker 2:So maybe, who knows, maybe we have. The history is repeating itself, maybe we will have something similar. So let's keep this idea in our minds. Beyond the analysis and the thoughts and the contributions that we had in this extraordinary panel, maybe something is underway that will bring a revival of the ancient story for a similar good result. This brings this, this panel, to an end. I really am very grateful to all of you. This was a set of contributions of outstanding level and this is really the final word for this panel. Thank you all for your excellent contributions. This is also the closing of the 2030 Global Impact Summit of IdeaGen in Athens. Thank you all for contributing and being present.