When the sparks of innovation meet the steadfast spirit of community leadership, you get a character like Craig Altman. This episode takes you on a journey with a maverick who havs redefined the essence of service and faith in their own unique way. Craig's leap of faith from a secular background to spearheading Grace Family Church and Dream Center Tampa is nothing short of a narrative masterpiece.
Strap in for a profound exploration of how faith, obedience, and wise financial stewardship intertwine to shape the growth of both nonprofit organizations and spiritual communities. Pastor Craig shares the profound belief that when divine vision is bestowed upon us, the means to fulfill it will follow. This episode is peppered with captivating anecdotes that demonstrate the impact of strategic decision-making and the power of community outreach, epitomized by initiatives like Dream Center of Tampa.
Finally, we wade into the waters of church leadership evolution and the rippling effects of shared leadership models. Our conversation sheds light on the importance of empowering others to succeed in their own rights and the necessity for leaders to embrace a non-egoistic approach to their work. This is a treasure trove of insights for anyone involved in leading, fundraising, or managing a team in any capacity. So tune in, as we unpack the stories, strategies, and lessons learned from a trailblazer in community service and leadership.
Show notes
The Nonprofit Renaissance is Powered by Vers Creative. An award winning creative agency trusted by global brands and businesses.
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When the sparks of innovation meet the steadfast spirit of community leadership, you get a character like Craig Altman. This episode takes you on a journey with a maverick who havs redefined the essence of service and faith in their own unique way. Craig's leap of faith from a secular background to spearheading Grace Family Church and Dream Center Tampa is nothing short of a narrative masterpiece.
Strap in for a profound exploration of how faith, obedience, and wise financial stewardship intertwine to shape the growth of both nonprofit organizations and spiritual communities. Pastor Craig shares the profound belief that when divine vision is bestowed upon us, the means to fulfill it will follow. This episode is peppered with captivating anecdotes that demonstrate the impact of strategic decision-making and the power of community outreach, epitomized by initiatives like Dream Center of Tampa.
Finally, we wade into the waters of church leadership evolution and the rippling effects of shared leadership models. Our conversation sheds light on the importance of empowering others to succeed in their own rights and the necessity for leaders to embrace a non-egoistic approach to their work. This is a treasure trove of insights for anyone involved in leading, fundraising, or managing a team in any capacity. So tune in, as we unpack the stories, strategies, and lessons learned from a trailblazer in community service and leadership.
Show notes
The Nonprofit Renaissance is Powered by Vers Creative. An award winning creative agency trusted by global brands and businesses.
Follow @collinhoke
Follow @heredes
Follow @vers_creative
Work with Vers
It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood, why? Because we've got two founders Wow, two founders today on the Renaissance podcast. Hey, listen, and we're pumped. We want to welcome our listeners to the nonprofit Renaissance. Thanks for listening, thanks for subscribing, thanks for your comments, for your reviews. It's been incredible. My name's H, we've got Colin. Say what's up, colin, that's me, I'm Colin, and we've got Founding Fathers in the house today. Founding Fathers, it's a special episode.
Collin:They're new for a trade. Sounds old. Both founders, both founders. We'll let you guys age yourselves, but we've got.
Heredes:you've heard them on the episode before, but the principal and founder of Verse Creative, which powers the nonprofit Renaissance, justin Price, is in the house as a special Justin.
Justin:what's going on, man? What's up guys? It's good to be back. Good to be back, thanks for having me back in the hot seat.
Heredes:By popular demand, I think. Right, I was getting some emails. Yes, I was going to knock on my door the other day.
Collin:My mom is definitely aggressive about getting right back. It was Bonnie.
Heredes:But also our special guest today, excited for you to hear from him. Founder and leader. And just Tampa OG, ladies and gentlemen, that's basically the title, but started Grace Family Church about 30 years ago. And the founder of Dream Center Tampa, ladies and gentlemen, the one and only.
Pastor Craig Altman:Craig Altman. All right, good to be here, wow. That's a heavy introduction Very drawn out.
Heredes:I wasn't saying mayor of Tampa, but can we legally say that? I don't think so have you ever thought of running for mayor? No, come on.
Collin:We're not worried about legality on this podcast.
Pastor Craig Altman:I'm so politically incorrect, it wouldn't work very well.
Justin:I'm just thinking about all the excerpts from the last four sermons that he's already disqualified.
Pastor Craig Altman:I just DQ'd. I love it but hey, patrick Craig, jesus would have been DQ'd, I think too. Oh, absolutely, absolutely, I think he was. I think he was Kind of on the cross.
Justin:One of my favorite is when he says any sermon, where you go? I'm just being honest, I'm just being real here. This is Grace. This is Grace Family Church. That's what I know. What's going to follow that? Is so good, I seriously like smile from ear to ear.
Pastor Craig Altman:Yeah, I had a foo paul. Yeah, not a bad one. But I was talking about Abraham and Sarah and I said you know 99,. She's good as dead, he's good as dead. I said you know, god promise. But it probably got hard to kind of go and do it and I had no Viagra back then and people went, I had my phone blow up.
Heredes:I said that's the one we're keeping. I want that at every location.
Justin:It was, it was so.
Pastor Craig Altman:I was dying my wife talked to me later I was dying.
Justin:Please don't listen to any of those naysayers, because you're keeping your audience engaged, there we go. Yeah, for sure.
Pastor Craig Altman:For sure, great way to open.
Heredes:No, this is it. Let's cut to our sponsors today. Viagra brought to you by Abraham Brought to you by Abraham. But, Pastor Craig, you've been a legend here in Tampa. It's been amazing getting to serve with you here from you, be pastor, led by you, Also started the dream center in Tampa which you want to talk about. But give give our listeners a little insight on where you come from, what you're up to in 30 years and 30 seconds.
Pastor Craig Altman:Born and raised in Tampa and did not come from any Christian environment. Man my dad was married four times never knew God, church, religion, Bible, nothing, Of course you guys know. 19 years old, this pretty girl started telling me about Jesus and I pretended like I was listening. But God had better plans, so I got saved in a pub drinking beer there you go yeah, what's happened.
Heredes:What kind of beer.
Pastor Craig Altman:Well, I don't know, it was nine of them. I can tell you that. And then I heard a voice and I said you like hear a lot of voices after nine beers Anyway. Yeah, so you never thought I'd be even a Christian, much less a pastor.
Heredes:So yeah. And then 30 years ago, gray Family Church. Yeah, tell us about that.
Pastor Craig Altman:Well, at the time I was a youth pastor for 12 years and just felt that you know what we need to go do this for adults, and I had no idea where it'd be today. But we started a little strip center they were doing Jesus jazzer size and we had 80 people in our first service and we just said, if we could ever get up to 300 people, man, we would be.
Heredes:Make it, Make it big time. So, and fast forward 30 years and I think you know we've experienced.
Collin:Finally made the 30, the 300. Finally crossed 300. Yes, we finally did that on staff, on staff Cause.
Heredes:Obviously God's blessed and you've led strong for for multiple years. Thousands of people, you know several locations spread out throughout Tampa and the impact and the life change that's happened is incredible and we celebrate. We applaud you for your faithfulness in that, and what we wanted to also touch on today is dream center. How did that come about in the in the journey?
Pastor Craig Altman:Wow, I'm trying to think timeline. I think it's probably 11 or 12 years ago. We were doing good, but I just it was an unsettling in my heart and one day I was reading the story of the Good Samaritan. You know, he walks down the road and he sees a guy in the ditch and it says the priest walked by and didn't do anything. Another guy walked by and didn't do anything and the Good Samaritan, of course, stopped and helped. And as I read the story, God said you're, you're the one that keeps walking by. What are you talking about?
Pastor Craig Altman:You guys, there's areas of this town that are very under resourced and kind of we used to old term inner city. And so I started driving around and saw this dilapidated old boys and girls club in Ebor in a very, in a very, in a very old town, pretty tough area of town, and you know, it was just like voice, this is the place. And so we kind of, you know, started there. We pretty much had been abandoned. It wasn't even livable or occupied and we worked with a Boys and Girls Club and they weren't using it. So you can use it for free if you want to redo it. Well, it was $2 million later.
Pastor Craig Altman:But our congregation, yeah, and we just started really a program for kids, you know, and mentoring after school program for kids and, you know, help them to get their education, Of course, Christ centered. You know they need a career path. You gotta get educated first, right, you gotta graduate. That was about 11 years ago and it's still going strong today and just seen some of the good generational things. Some of those kids we've actually seen go to college. That's scholarships from the dream center to go to college. So it's been a good story. But I think in those areas there's a mentality, you know, to have a handout and we just really want to give a hand up, not out, you know, and plus they're testing you, how long are you gonna be here? And so we've been there, still there, and we'll be there till Jesus comes back.
Heredes:I love that. Yeah, you know, obviously you've led as a staple in the community and being involved in the community. I think you obviously, being from here you went to school here you know you've known of all the bars here from your past. So there's, you can't avoid that, but you've continued that over the years, which has really been a key to your successful leadership and influence. Talk to our leaders about that the importance of not just come see us, come to me, come here, but also being out there, being connected community, whether it's some of it politics, whether it's just outreach or social services, whether it's sporting events or relational. What have you done? What are some tips on that end?
Pastor Craig Altman:I mean, just I look at the New Testament church. It wasn't just inside the walls, you have to be outside. You got to be serving your community. Jesus said I didn't come to be served but to serve. And church has turned inward so fast. And that's the challenge in any church how do we start? Stay focused on the community? And the dream center really helped us to kind of refocus on hey, there's a place that we're gonna invest into that will never be reciprocated. It's not about hey, we're gonna do this and it's just a mission. And every church has to be missional outside the walls or it gets really stale. And when you do that, it's amazing. When we started the dream center, like, how are we gonna fund it? How are we gonna do it? God always provides when you are willing to reach out into your community and at every level. We're in many schools around. We've adopted certain public schools doing just gifts. We just serve them. They need a new teacher's lounge. People go in and help, do that just to build a relationship with the community. They don't wanna hear about Jesus, they wanna what are you gonna do for us? And as we've done that, we've been able to gain influence in many of these schools. So it's been cool to outreach as we've done.
Pastor Craig Altman:We had something called Serve Saturday where once a month we have opportunities to serve in connection with other ministries. We don't have to reinvent the wheel, they're already out. There some great outreach ministries In Tampa area. You have some children's homes, you got metropolitan ministries, you have home for unwed mothers, you have the prison ministries, and so we just try to partner with them and send our people out. And a new one that's actually evolved New Life Warehouse, where they provide bedding and furniture for people. They don't get it, they take their kids away from them. So there's a lot of cool things that we can partner with and our people wanna get out there. I think people want know they're called to do something Love it, Justin.
Heredes:You sit on some boards and advise some nonprofits Like the Dream Center and others. Tell us about kind of what you've seen, some of the best practices in being present, being out there and not just come and see, but maybe kind of go.
Justin:I think that there's a lot of nonprofits that are. They see themselves already out there, and so I think there's a lot of even churches who think what we're doing in this location is enough. This is it, this is good, and I think there's a really cool inspiration we should grab from churches and from other nonprofits that are reaching out and extending beyond what is their sweet spot, what they're already doing and collaborating, and so I think there's a disconnect for so many weeks because they feel under resource. But I think what you said about the money God's got the resources and it's about stepping up and actually doing the reach. He'll provide what you need If he's put the vision on your heart. You need to be obedient is what I'm hearing you say more than anything, and I think a lot of nonprofits need to hear that.
Justin:They're like why are we stuck? Why we're doing the same thing with the same budgets, and I find myself on boards, oftentimes being the one trying to push and trying to say we can't be 10 years behind where our audience is. We've got to make some massive changes and there's fear with that. So let's keep our money in the bank, let's not stretch ourselves too thin, let's play it safe Because what we're doing is already dangerous. Right Like as a nonprofit, we're already trying to do things that are uncomfortable and stretch us, and so when it comes to finances and it comes to reaching out beyond our walls and what is in our sweet spot, we oftentimes just leave it to somebody else.
Justin:I think you guys have said the example. I mean, the fruit of that has been that in a city that is growing and is very difficult to grab new people right In a culture where there is a thousand things to do, it's so hard to find the thing to do in Tampa because there are so much happening here that somehow you guys are grabbing all of these transient people you are connecting because of the work you're doing outside of the church. I believe, and God's blessing, that and the return is that the ministry of the church is actually growing and even being, you know, fastest growing church in America, third fastest growing church in America last year.
Pastor Craig Altman:I mean, that's what I heard. Someone had to call me to tell me about it.
Collin:Seriously Too busy growing the church.
Pastor Craig Altman:Yeah, I said really. I mean, I knew about this magazine, did it, but keeping up. But you know, back to your point, I think when you stretch, what we've seen happen is is when you start directing back to the community, all of a sudden, people within your congregation get a vision for what they're called to do in the community and, if it lines up with our mission, we've empowered them to go and do it. There's some amazing people in our church that lead different community outreaches and it's pretty cool. I mean, they're part of a nonprofit and now we have people that go volunteer and help them, even when you the dream center that was gonna be a big financial thing. When we've mentioned it, I'm like God, how are we gonna do this? Cause we're getting ready to go multi-site and God just had people just start writing checks to something to like that.
Pastor Craig Altman:And so it's God always meets the need he really does. It is scary, though in the moment, there's no doubt.
Justin:There's also something that I think is super important to say, and you might not be happy that I'm gonna say this. We could just call this whole podcast lessons I've learned from Pastor Craig. But there you go. That's a title. There's something to be said for the fact that I watched you pass a lot of opportunities to add more campuses, to grow faster, to be more aggressive and we have a lot of other churches in America that are they will. They'll pop up a location without the right infrastructure. They'll pop up without the right support. They'll just and it's not that healthy. And I've seen you pass up super good opportunities. I've seen you, at the edge of a contract, pull the plug on properties. I've seen you, meanwhile, you're spending tons of money and resources on outreach. So I think, even in our personalize, as leaders, as Christians, as men, we're often tempted to pull back our outreach, to expand our fortresses, and instead I've watched you, over and over again, wait on God on expansion, while being faithful to the calling of the outreach.
Pastor Craig Altman:There's tension for both of those. There really is. But you know, our goal has always been out of our budget, 10% goes into mission. So, whether it's local or international missions or benevolence, we've been able to focus at least 10% of our funding that goes towards missions, and above sometimes, depending on the season that we're in. So, and God just seems to always be faithful, because God does want us.
Pastor Craig Altman:When you mentioned, I mean, it's so easy, again 30 years, for churches to turn inward and we have our issues. It's fighting that inward pull, but to keep thinking outside what's good, because what's outside is there's a lot of hurting things going on in there and they may never step foot in the church. But if we can start by serving them, at least you're giving them up a little bit of a representation what's Jesus say? They will see your good works and glorify my Father in heaven, and that's what we should do. All the glory goes to God too. We don't look what we're doing. It's like no. When they see us doing these good works, hopefully that gives them a reflection that God cares for them.
Heredes:You know I've also seen again another lesson we've learned from Pastor Craig here You've allowed members, congregation leaders, if they had a vision or an idea, to run with it, empowering them, go when. A lot of times I've seen that I like either stop it or like no, bring it in. If our church logo and name's not slapped on it, it's no good. And it was refreshing to see security in your leadership to like no, go in power. Tell us about that tension, because it's a risk. It's a risk, right, because you're sending human resources, actual resources. What's your mentality? What goes to your head?
Justin:People who don't have a bunch of success-leading nonprofits? Yeah, exactly.
Pastor Craig Altman:I mean, it's just, you don't want to be the lid right. The church can create the red tape. You want to maximize ministry and sometimes things got to get going and then when they kind of get a little bit messy they'll come to us and we can maybe help them tweak their nonprofit, their outreach ministry. But for instance, I'm not promoting them, but New Life Warehouse started by a member. Our name's not on it, it's not anything no one would know. New Life we're involved with them but you know they share a warehouse space with us. We have like 70% of their volunteers come from Grace Family Church but we don't call it Grace Family Church New Life Because it's their vision and ministry. But they're part of Grace and we just love to see people God's birth of vision in them. That's an extension of the church. You know, I mean that's exciting. I believe the church is the hope of the world. But from the church should be these extensions like spokes on a wheel that go and touch different types of people in our Tampa Bay area.
Justin:We talk a lot about what a healthy church looks like and I think spawning community outreach and nonprofits from your congregation is a great. I'm not saying that it's the only right, but I mean what a great testament. I mean there's probably dozens I can think of right now that are in the Tampa Bay area that have come from people who've been pastored and ministered in one way or another at Grace and are now leading and running these organizations, whether it's full-time and they're big or small part-time organizations, but they're making our community better. I think it's such a cool way to kind of measure. If you are doing nonprofit work and you don't see fruit like that coming from your organization, it's a good. It's definitely good gut check.
Pastor Craig Altman:And I think, though, to be fair I mean we're 30 years old I think the first five to five or 10 years, we were more focused on, you know, getting our own things started, which you know that's kind of self-centered, you know.
Pastor Craig Altman:But as you go on you realize, man, these people need to get out and do something. I remember a weekend where we said you know, we're going to do that random acts of kindness book that came out. Well, one weekend we told her one you're going to show up at church and we're going to do something we've never done before. And we did this thing where we had a five-minute service and said, all right, go, go and serve the world. And we had a little sheet of paper of 10 things they could do, and so literally, we had like a five-minute service People went no, no, I want to sing and you give me the word.
Pastor Craig Altman:No, no, we're going to go out. So we've probably got some people mad, but that's how you know. We wanted to. We wanted to change things up you know, because again we all become inward. No, I love that.
Heredes:And I said OG earlier only because original gangster of Tampa here. He's been doing some innovative radical things in Tampa from Youth Pastor Days to we may have an extra like director's cut podcast on just all the craziness and lots of trouble the kids you've lost and trips and all the stories.
Heredes:Tell me about. I was going to ask you about just the multiplication piece of this. For the leader listening, you know they're thinking they're in the four walls and they're figuring this out. Grace has expanded right, it's 14,000 plus people, butts and seats, not mentioning the online influence because that would double.
Pastor Craig Altman:Does that count. I'm kidding you. I'm kidding you.
Heredes:We've always had that conversation. Yes, online people are. If you're listening to this, you're real you're very real. Pastor Craig went? I think so, but we love you.
Collin:As an online show, you're very real to us.
Heredes:Yes, you're very real to us, eight locations, and that expansion occurred. When you started back in 30 years ago, did you foresee that, that expansion, that multiplication?
Pastor Craig Altman:I mean, I really didn't.
Pastor Craig Altman:I knew that, you know, after a while God was doing more than what we realized, and so I had to step up my leadership game and I think it starts with and I'll just say this when I do go sometimes to a pastor's conference and I speak at some of these workshops it starts with you. If you're an insecure leader, you're never going to allow other people to take the vision because you want to be all about you. You got to control it. Everything's got to come through me. And I learned early on man, I don't, I'm not enough. I mean, I'm only one part of a puzzle. You know we need to build dream teams. You know we can't have that what I call King Saul mentality. You know he had David coming up through the ranks, this great warrior, and instead of encouraging him, he was jealous of him and became insecure. And you know there's so many pastors that lose their David's because they don't allow them to flex their muscles within the, within the church. And so that's one thing early on.
Pastor Craig Altman:When you're talking about expansion, your own leadership capacity these expand. First, you got to be okay with who you are and get smarter people around you. Listen, I'm telling you, I got a lot smarter people around me that are, that are stronger than me. They in certain lanes that I'm weak in, that's where they're strong, and and and let them be empowered and let them get the credit. You know I say this there's a lot of pastors, a lot of big egos and and it's hard to grow ministry like that to me, a healthy one. So so it starts there. If you want to expand, you get to expand your own leadership capacity.
Heredes:And we know that you know verse, verse gets to serve and honor to serve grace. And we tried slapping Craig's photo and everything and he just keeps coming back saying Photoshop it more, please Photoshop.
Pastor Craig Altman:Exactly, you've seen this face, you got to work on it.
Collin:We're talking about finding finding good leaders, you know, and starting these initiatives. What are you looking for for people? What are maybe some of the counterintuitive things that people think someone wants in a leader that you're like no, maybe leave that behind and what are the things that you're like? This is really. I know I've found a quality leader to put in.
Pastor Craig Altman:I don't know. I'd say once right, are they teachable? You know I'd start there. Are they humble? Are they teachable? But is there a little risk factor in them that they like to kind of, you know, get out there a little bit? Are they solution oriented? Do they see the solution or do they? Oh, anybody can tell you the problem? We got too many people diagnosing things. No, come to me with a solution. So I look at, I look at those. Really just starts with are they teachable? You know have been. Have they been faithful in a few things, like First Timothy? Give them a few things. Are they faithful in a few things? And maybe you can give them more to do.
Pastor Craig Altman:It's still a moving target. Sometimes we haven't hit it right every time, but if they see a secure leader, they want to come alongside someone who is secure, who's not threatened. When, when, when they feel that when, when a leader feels threatened, he's never going to grow out. Grow strong leaders, they're going to leave people like serving insecure leaders. So again, it starts with the leader, but then identifying new leaders. Those are some of the traits I think about. Obviously, the traits that attract us are like, you know, man, they're charismatic and they're attractional and that's great, but if they don't have these other foundational things, those kind of people can yeah, I can not work good sometimes, so you just kind of look for the look for someone who's teachable, who asks good questions, who will follow through of assignments. You know they always say real estate's location, location, location.
Pastor Craig Altman:To me, leadership is follow up, follow up, follow up. Do they follow up and do the little things they're supposed to do? And that's how you, to me, grow. You know some good leadership. That's huge. I mean you got to let them swing the bat too. I mean that's the thing you have to. People are going to fail. I mean talk about failures. As a youth pastor, that was my training ground. People got to be willing to swing the bat and when they miss, if you're a good leader, you know you, you go back and you, you have conversations like Jesus did. Okay, let's talk about what happened here. You know it's a process of learning and growing as a leader.
Heredes:Pastor Craig, talk to us on the early years. Like you said earlier, different focus, not self-centered, but I think it's a focused. You have to grow this, you have to figure out who we are, what are we doing. It's a startup mentality, right, as you've developed. You've delegated, kind of galvanized, you've allowed others to be the face, to be the name, to be the, the spokesperson, and to a fault almost that you walk around, sometimes at locations and thousands of people that you know, new folks eventually will know that are you the founder or are you that guy? You're the, but they may not even know. Right, how was that transition? Because that's not standard practice, if you may.
Pastor Craig Altman:Well, now everybody's in a different season. I think when you're first starting something, it needs to be your imprint, your DNA, your injecting your DNA into that church early on. But I wish one thing I would have done earlier in my ministry is have more of a shared model, even from the teaching. I was doing most of the teaching the first 20 years, 45 weekends a year, and that was a little bit of a grind and you know. But for me, the season I'm in now I love.
Pastor Craig Altman:I must decrease, I must increase, I love the season to see other people win and I think our church is healthier than it's ever been because of the more of a shared leadership where it's not built on a personality it really isn't. Now I have a team of two or three of us that do the teaching and it sets diversity. In that it's been very healthy for the church. So for me, the season I'm in, I wanna do that. But I really think it's a model other guys should look at. Because if you're the only one and you're hit by a truck tomorrow, where's the ministry, Where's the church at? I'll be honest, if I'm hit by a truck tomorrow, I think we're gonna be okay.
Justin:So I don't wanna get by a truck, but if I am, I'm such a gold-davichand yeah well, we could probably count a lot more really large churches that have suffered and struggled when that single leader has gone down, Whether it's hit by a truck or a moral failure or anything. There's not that many that are doing this model and I imagine that it took a lot of risk for you to embrace it and stick with it, Because I know I'm not the only one who has heard multiple times where people say I love your preaching. Can you just preach all the time? I would be, you know, and I'm just not to say I love all the people who are preaching right now but I but who's?
Justin:your favorite though.
Heredes:I'm kidding.
Justin:But you've had to deal with that. You had to hear that, probably week after week for a long time, and stick with that conviction.
Pastor Craig Altman:Yeah, and it's still a little muddy. I mean, a shared model is still pretty challenging and for us we're working through some of the finer details of that, but I really believe that it's a good protection for the long-term success of the church if it's not dependent on one person, but when you have three or four or five people in a high-level role and they're leading together, obviously you need to have a tiebreaker, but it's not easy, but for me it's a better way for us to do it.
Justin:You're saying it's worth it.
Pastor Craig Altman:Oh yeah, absolutely yeah yeah.
Collin:So for those churches or nonprofit organizations who might be kind of in that middle space there, maybe they were relying heavily on that leadership personality. But they're realizing, hey, how do they do that? How do they manage that? What are they? Is that something that you're saying Like try to get out of that to the multiplicity early on? Like how do they manage that?
Pastor Craig Altman:I mean number one. You gotta know that God's calling you to do it. I'm not saying this for everybody. And then you gotta be very intentional about it. I mean very intentional, Obviously I'm 65. So this next level of leadership I'm looking at had to be people younger, right, You're looking for that, some of them, not all, but a younger group that has proven themselves at some level to say, okay, let's see if this can be the group. And that's really where a lot of my time in investment is, that right now, just helping them understand how I think and talking about it and letting them lead.
Pastor Craig Altman:I mean, really 85% of our church right now is not led by me. I mean there are decisions made and it's hard because I have preferences and I've realized my preferences don't matter Now. Core values are different. So I'm learning there's between a preference and a core value. I mean most leaders are very much high D, control people and there's a lot you have to surrender. I can tell you I'm still going through it, but I feel like I'm in our church in a much better place now. I don't feel as much stress. I think that until you allow people to make decisions, you don't know if they have what it takes, and so it's challenging, but it's very rewarding for me.
Collin:Yeah, I imagine one of the probably most difficult parts of that is just time, is being willing and being able to make the time to spend with those people, cause you can send them video courses but like there's nothing to replace actual time with them to develop them.
Pastor Craig Altman:Yeah, I think the Crockpot idea is the best, because I think when there are transitions of large churches it's almost so quick of a handoff because they really weren't thinking about it, so then they just think they can do it in 12 months. I'm here now, I'm not here, and this guy is like man. That can be very difficult. So ours has been a pretty much a six, seven year process and just slowly shaping and again there's a lot of rumors that come out Craig's leaving. When I start allowing other people to speak and I'm never gonna leave my role might be redefined, but I don't plan on leaving.
Heredes:The rumor I heard is that you're gonna go play for the Bucks or something. Is that right?
Pastor Craig Altman:Yeah, that was years ago. Yeah, maybe, yeah.
Heredes:I was telling Colin that earlier. Could you tell our listeners a little bit about your book, your big fan, of course. Tell us a little bit about your book.
Pastor Craig Altman:You're taking a right turn here, see. See, that was years ago. I mean, I always loved football and dreamed of playing for the Buccaneers. I'd gotten saved and I'd go. This is what God's gonna do. He's gonna use this platform to play for the Bucks, and they had a terrible field goal kicker at the time. So I had been training as a field goal kicker and I eventually got a tryout. But when I got into the room actually for the application it was pretty funny was John McKay was in there just back in 1978, something like that.
Heredes:It's a bright orange jersey. He's back there Orange jersey that's right.
Pastor Craig Altman:And they said hey, you're not even old enough to play in the NFL, All that and so I didn't even get to go on a field. But officially I had been invited for a tryout and they wanted me to go play semi-pro football, which wasn't gonna work, because you don't just field goal kick, you gotta play another position, and these guys are way too big.
Pastor Craig Altman:And so that was the end of my football career, but that was the beginning of God really showing me what he wanted me to do. That's why I tell people you're dreaming, I'll be God's dream, but you're dead end. It's not a dead end for God.
Collin:Well, how often do you think people do that? Well, they've got this direction and they follow that and all of a sudden, god takes that. It's just good at that, but takes that right turn. Yeah, how does that? I feel like that probably happens a lot.
Pastor Craig Altman:I think it does happen a lot. I mean, as long as we're moving, god can direct us. But when you're standing still not taking chances and not taking risks, what can God do? And you're sitting there waiting. I mean, I think we take steps and then God can direct us. It's great.
Heredes:I love what you said earlier. I wanna go back to the preferences over values and the discernment of that, because I think many times we'll make a big deal out of a preference, something actually that it's not a core value. And how do you hear from God the sermon? How do you process? Who do you listen to?
Pastor Craig Altman:I can tell you the last seven years been great, but it's been frustrating for me. Preferences I gotta let go of my preferences. Why are they doing it that way? Well, as long as we have the same outcome, what do I care? And that's still a struggle to this day. So I don't think that ever gets easy for any type D leader. But man, I'd rather see. I'd rather empower 10 people to do something that's gonna multiply itself, and maybe they're doing it 85%, the way I think it should be done. But then, instead of me, one person. It just makes sense, right? There's a multiplication factor when you empower others to begin leading and they're gonna do things differently.
Justin:You have an example of one that's been hard for you. I might encourage somebody else who's maybe in that same seat Wow.
Pastor Craig Altman:I mean I can take a lot of examples.
Justin:Which one can you say?
Pastor Craig Altman:I mean, I was a youth pastor for years. I've had to let go of youth ministry and even how we do summer camps, though I can tell you five things I would do differently, and I've just had to pull out on Goldcombe just gonna keep my mouth shut and they're mostly preferences. I would have done it this way, I'd done it that way. Now I will still get in the weeds sometimes. That would be one area that I would say you know, there's some multiple things that I could go into, but you just gotta grow up. You know you do, man, I realize. Listen. You find out how much ego you have in pride when you finally start surrendering.
Heredes:And it's difficult because you were successful at it. So therefore, the track record's there. Why wouldn't we do it? How much of it is it like parenting, right, you have to let. Sometimes you can teach your kids, but you gotta let your kids do it.
Pastor Craig Altman:Very good, that's a great analogy. Their own way.
Heredes:And they'll come back. I'm like thanks, dad, or like you're right that, or see that it worked the same way, right, yeah, yeah. Yeah you're a grandfather now, so you know, yeah, exactly, thank you, you've gone through it. Well, grandparents don't get to do that, they just get to like who cares.
Collin:You just kind of like you know, you're just a fun one now I think every leader, I mean.
Pastor Craig Altman:Another thing I'll say about leadership in general. I mean, do you really have people that have permission to speak to you about your blind spots? I mean they say, oh yeah, I have people. No, the feedback they give you is what you wanna hear, because they're afraid they're gonna get fired, you know. And so that feedback culture is hard to develop in any nonprofit organization. But I promise you we have blind spots. I have blind spots. My wife's really good at telling me those, which you know is hard sometimes coming from your spouse. But I would say leadership, you gotta make sure you have people that can come to you, that you know are in your corner, that will tell you the truth. Yeah, you know, whether they say faithful or the wounds of a friend, but the faithful or the kisses of an enemy too many strong, dominant CEOs and pastors of churches they have. You know they're not as open as you would think you know, to feedback and we just gotta let go of some of that.
Heredes:Yeah, that's good, pastor Craig. One of the questions that comes in all the time and it's becoming a recurring theme because it's been helpful to our listeners it's on fundraising right and, for nonprofits, the idea of developing donors, activating them, engaging them, building relationships. 30 years plus, including and plus if you add youth group years and beyond. Give us some insight. How have you done it? What's God done? But through your leadership or the team, et cetera? It's funny. I've never been to.
Pastor Craig Altman:Bible school. But I heard that's one thing all these guys wish Bible school at a time. These Bible school would have taught them about fundraising, because really, what stops vision is lack of leadership and lack of funding. Right, and it was the hardest thing to do. I mean, money is such a sensitive subject. We all know it is. You know, talk about my mother, but don't talk about money. And early on it was hard. I mean, I remember doing my first tithing message and apologizing the whole time through it and one of my biggest donors came to me and said do you believe in what you're preaching? I said, yeah, he goes.
Pastor Craig Altman:You better act like or I'm gonna stop giving because, you're passionate about everything else but you're apologizing about I went. Oh, okay. So you know. And fundraising, you know, first of all, you have to really believe in what you're doing and then you're giving people the why right. People give the vision right. They give to a vision, and so you gotta make the vision compelling. And you have to be unapologetic, not brash, but unapologetic about this is I'm excited and you need to see this is so important for us to do as a church or whatever your organization is. And I tell you what, when you're dealing with large donors, you better have your facts, you better have your due diligence done. What the cost are, or what we're gonna do if it's a building, here's what it's gonna cost, here's the size, here's where we're at right now. They wanna know the facts, you know. So there's some things I've learned over the years.
Collin:And what if you don't have that? What if you have the vision and you believe in the vision and it's something that's deep in your heart but you don't necessarily have all? Is that like a no-go or is that like how they measure that?
Pastor Craig Altman:I tell you, for the business type people, they wanna see something on paper. You gotta get someone to help you articulate what's in your head on paper, right? I mean you have to. They wanna see that you've taken time to write it down. That's what I've learned over the years and again. Here's what I do know too and it's different from a church, from certain non-profits, in some ways, because in people in church there's a lot of people that have a lot of money that if you don't know how to make the ask, they're gonna give it somewhere. You know, and I know that for us we're gonna make sure the vision is compelling and your building relationship. For me, part of my job is building relationship with donors. They wanna know you, they wanna and that helps as you're building those bridges to them. So then when you have a need, you're not starting this brand new. Hey, I don't know you, but would you like to? They get to know you, they get to know the vision. That makes it easier.
Collin:Well, I imagine that makes up for a lot too. If you have that genuine relationship, I think people might be willing to overlook some things because they've already built that trust with you, so maybe they're not needing all of that because they know who you are Exactly.
Pastor Craig Altman:Advantage for me 30 years. We have a little bit of a track record. But raising funds makes most pastors very nervous and uncomfortable. It's an uncomfortable place to be. It seems self-serving. Even when I get up and do a series every year on finances and it seems like it's self-serving. But we know when they invest and give it's not just helping us, it's helping other ministries that we support. No one sees the inside of what's really going on in your organization. That's why you got to give them the inside behind the scenes. You got to give them the stories, the testimonies of what's going on.
Justin:You do a great job, even when you talk about money, about breaking down finances for the organization right, so you oftentimes like a very accurate report of where all the money is going when you're talking about yeah we give them like a pie shape.
Pastor Craig Altman:You know, they don't realize. You know really your utility bills a hundred thirty thousand dollars a year, or you know, or you know, or whatever it is. They have no idea. When you got seven or eight campuses, it's like can you imagine having seven houses and maintaining all those houses and some of those?
Pastor Craig Altman:So it helps them to see that a lot of people like to hear that other people or anti-big church. I'll see that you've got too many months, too much money in the building, so you, it's so yeah, those people are not able to do a cost per person analysis, then yeah. How about running?
Justin:three million dollar budget for 300 people.
Pastor Craig Altman:Yeah, but yeah, it's funny, but you know it's something that the Bible's true. I think when people understand the principles of giving, it helps them, because I believe God blesses you when you become generous In your giving and in your life. In fact, the funny thing is for me, the last two or three times I've gone to speak and I don't go do a lot of outside speaking but the last two or three guys they what do you want me to speak on? All three of them said I want you to speak on giving. They've gone back to some of the. It's hard for, but I can say things they can't say yeah at their church. Yeah, and I've had phenomenal results do. It's funny some of the phone calls I get.
Heredes:So it's pretty funny if you want to book Pastor Craig, we're gonna put.
Collin:Things there that you can't say your church yeah don't want Viagra mentioned though.
Heredes:Wow, yeah, there's an additional. Yeah, put that in the country, but you know what?
Pastor Craig Altman:I think I'm finding move, though, but I think but I think giving you gotta be straightforward people Compassionate, but here's the deal. Here's what the Bible says and the word is weighty enough on it. We don't need to beat people up on it, but the words, word says enough.
Heredes:Yeah, so no, that, not apologizing, just starting with it, not apologizing for it, yeah, don't fear.
Pastor Craig Altman:That's the hardest part of leadership, though, like you said about fundraising, it is. It is hard.
Collin:Yeah, well, it's interesting that story you shared because you probably in that moment, by apologizing, you thought you were opening the door wider, you know, but you were closing it. Yeah, you were closing the door and there were people that were saying I'm not, yeah. That's communicating. This person does not believe in what they're doing exactly.
Pastor Craig Altman:That's a lot of big lesson I learned early on. Yeah, absolutely.
Heredes:It's huge talk to the leader looking to start a church, start an unprofit. What are some questions you're asking? You're encouraging them, discouraging them, or that of the mind, or they what? What would you tell them?
Pastor Craig Altman:number one. No, God's called you to do it because you're gonna go through some Challenging times early on.
Pastor Craig Altman:If you know God's told you to do it, that's a stake in the ground. Have some good advisors around you, I mean early on, have people around you At every level helping you. I mean, write the vision down. You know what are the two or three things that you would say, the why is it why you do it right? Here's why we're doing this and here's what we think the outcomes will be. And keep it very simple, people, I think. I just think that, whether it's a church or a nonprofit, we can get so scattered Laser. Focus on what the main thing is and stay on the main thing. Keep it the main thing. As a church grew, as our church grew, everybody wants to get involved. Their projects we had to know is that God wants to do that or, and we just you got to stay focused on the main thing.
Heredes:Hmm, has gold right there. That's gold. I think I think that's a clip, I think that's a promo clip right there. What are the right way that in the bag you're still?
Justin:you're still doing that today, though. You're still putting people around, you're still questioning.
Pastor Craig Altman:You're still listening, yeah. Yeah, I have some people on our board they're very smart that have built businesses and in fact one of our guys build a business. It was kind of like a multi-site he had. He was in the food business but he bought up and acquired like 18 others over the nation. Then he sold the company. But I said, hey, I'm starting this multi-site, how do I? And he really helped us understand how to build. There's. Certain principles are transferable, right Totally. You got to always be learning, man, I mean that's great.
Pastor Craig Altman:Yeah, I could talk about five things never to do if you want to.
Heredes:We could do that one too.
Pastor Craig Altman:I mean, I mean, you know we talk about. There's so many ten things you know. I would always said if I wrote a book, it'd be ten things not to do as a leader. You know, and and yeah we listen.
Collin:We can remove this if we need to. I'm curious. A lot of years of speaking, what's one of the most regrettable or embarrassing things you've ever said from a stage?
Pastor Craig Altman:Oh wow, other than Viagra, yeah, that was that might not even be there, yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, over the years, I'm trying to think.
Collin:I'm just too many to sift through?
Pastor Craig Altman:Yeah, I have a lot of a lot of food paws in there. I'm just trying to think of.
Heredes:We'll do a podcast with Debbie. I'm sure she can share.
Pastor Craig Altman:Yeah, one time I was talking about I remember was talking about Jonah and the whole thing was about Jonah I said no at a whole time.
Pastor Craig Altman:I Kept knowing the way people were waving at me trying and at the end they go. You started with the book of Jonah and you talked about no other hole, used the name, no one said a Jonah, and I'm like all that. And then my son, who never commented on any of my messages, he was like ten years old, said dad, that was really funny. What happened? I said what? Because I said it was a new year and I say, hey, we all need a fresh start. Well, I said we all need a fresh fart and that's what you equally true.
Pastor Craig Altman:That's the only thing. Then I was doing a wedding. One time I'm real saying marriage is not an option instead of divorce is not, yeah. And then the funeral my very first funeral In some of you might have very first funeral ever did.
Pastor Craig Altman:I was my new church, trying to impress people. I've wouldn't a youth pastor anymore, I'm a pastor and and we're going from the, from the church, to the grave site and I was in the car with a friend of mine hey, you want to drive me to the grave site? As we started talking, I forgot where I was at and you know how you get a long line of cars with the lights on. I was in the back and I said why are these people driving so slow? They're in the right lane so I zoom around them, I'm flooring it, going past them in the left lane and I pass everybody, including the hearse, and the hearse guy looked at me like what are you doing? And then I ease back in. The problem was having to get to the cemetery and all those people knew that I would just done that. Like who is this idiot pastor? Yeah, and I had to close out. You know, dust to dust and I thought I was dust to dust.
Pastor Craig Altman:You know my last time as a pastor. He just climbed in the casket. Oh yeah, I wanted to bury myself.
Collin:Yeah, that's incredible.
Pastor Craig Altman:Yeah, so, but yeah, I can't think of some sermon ones, but they're definitely a few of them out there. Did you ever some of?
Justin:your humility came honestly.
Heredes:Did you ever lead worship.
Pastor Craig Altman:You know that's not true, but they have mic'd me before. One time we had a Christmas. We should do a Christmas thing where it just fun things. We'd have fun, and this one were a lot smaller, and one of the things they decided to do was they had me mic'd up when I was singing from and they had it set up for the Christmas banquet and they go. Now we're gonna hear from Pastor Craig and his version of whatever it was, and it was just me singing and you didn't know that they were recording it.
Pastor Craig Altman:And it was terrible. I was the only time I said you got to turn that off right now. It maybe never want to sing again.
Heredes:That's a preference pass yeah, yeah. Before we wrap and if you have any final thoughts again, thank you for the time. Give us a little insight. Can you leak anything? We're celebrating 30 years. What's up, what's ahead, what's next?
Pastor Craig Altman:Oh boy. Well, you know our 30 year anniversary is coming up and we thought we should do something big. And and then we shifted and said, no, we're gonna do, we're gonna do a 30 year anniversary. But it's not gonna be about us. We're gonna really do it on Easter at at the stadium right, raymond James Stadium, nice because we think we can reach Thousands of people who would not normally come to church on Easter to a neutral site. So we're kind of really fired up about that, getting ready to the plan for that, and it's gonna be an invitation For Tampa Bay to come to Easter to hear about the greatest comeback ever.
Heredes:Let's go, yeah so it should be good If you're listening.
Pastor Craig Altman:you're invited you missed it Easter Sunday. Watch it online.
Heredes:It'll be Easter Sunday, yeah are you gonna finally get your your kick?
Pastor Craig Altman:Yeah, I might do it. Yeah, one field goal? Yeah, no, I'd pull a groin or something. But I would say, if I would say, if I could summarize one thing about leadership is I'm a very serious leader, but don't take yourself too seriously. You know, I Some, we just can't come off unapproachable, overly religious. Keep it real. Authenticity is so important. Humility, admitting when you're wrong, you know, hey, I screwed up. You gain more respect from your leaders when you can admit you've done something wrong. That's probably the biggest complaint I hear is they never admit that they're wrong. And I think admitting you're wrong is not a weakness, is actually a strength, you know. So don't take yourself too seriously. I like just having fun, it's good.
Heredes:You've modeled that well. That's your great. Yeah, you have. Thank you for the time, thank you for the principles and be sure to follow Patrick Craig, follow GFC Florida online and all those links for you. All that grace is doing, so take us up, yeah.
Collin:Hey guys, thank you so much for listening, like, subscribe, share and we'll see you next time on the nonprofit Renaissance.
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