Learn the secrets of transformative fundraising with Roy Jones, a fundraising maestro with a treasure trove of experience spanning over thirty years. This episode brims with essential strategies and heartwarming wisdom, as Roy guides us through the nuances of donor relations—highlighting the art of seeing donations as investments and the importance of grasping the donor's journey. His invaluable insights are drawn from an impressive career, including impactful roles at Liberty University and Mercy Ships, and he now shares his expertise through his new venture, Fit Fundraising.
Throughout our discussion, we zero in on the pivotal art of nurturing relationships with donors. We dissect the profiles of different donor types, from those giving with all their heart to those who smartly invest in the causes they cherish. I peel back the layers on the challenges of soliciting donations across state lines, while sharing anecdotes from my own fundraising escapades with schools and shelters that exemplify the profound impact of understanding what truly motivates donors. This episode is a masterclass in preventing donor attrition and encouraging their ascent up the 'donor ladder' by aligning with their deepest passions.
As we wrap our conversation with Roy, we share a page from detective Columbo's book, employing the "one more thing" approach to keep donors engaged and invested. The exchange is packed with strategies on cultivating donor connections and navigating the dance of communication in fundraising, from the power of a well-placed phone call to the delight of a handwritten note. Tune in for a potent mix of personal stories, clever tactics, and the kind of practical advice that can only come from years of experience in the field, all designed to help your nonprofit forge lasting bonds and drive successful fundraising campaigns.
Show notes
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Learn the secrets of transformative fundraising with Roy Jones, a fundraising maestro with a treasure trove of experience spanning over thirty years. This episode brims with essential strategies and heartwarming wisdom, as Roy guides us through the nuances of donor relations—highlighting the art of seeing donations as investments and the importance of grasping the donor's journey. His invaluable insights are drawn from an impressive career, including impactful roles at Liberty University and Mercy Ships, and he now shares his expertise through his new venture, Fit Fundraising.
Throughout our discussion, we zero in on the pivotal art of nurturing relationships with donors. We dissect the profiles of different donor types, from those giving with all their heart to those who smartly invest in the causes they cherish. I peel back the layers on the challenges of soliciting donations across state lines, while sharing anecdotes from my own fundraising escapades with schools and shelters that exemplify the profound impact of understanding what truly motivates donors. This episode is a masterclass in preventing donor attrition and encouraging their ascent up the 'donor ladder' by aligning with their deepest passions.
As we wrap our conversation with Roy, we share a page from detective Columbo's book, employing the "one more thing" approach to keep donors engaged and invested. The exchange is packed with strategies on cultivating donor connections and navigating the dance of communication in fundraising, from the power of a well-placed phone call to the delight of a handwritten note. Tune in for a potent mix of personal stories, clever tactics, and the kind of practical advice that can only come from years of experience in the field, all designed to help your nonprofit forge lasting bonds and drive successful fundraising campaigns.
Show notes
The Nonprofit Renaissance is Powered by Vers Creative. An award winning creative agency trusted by global brands and businesses.
Follow @collinhoke
Follow @heredes
Follow @vers_creative
Work with Vers
Well welcome to the nonprofit Renaissance.
Collin :You're doing the intro now, is that?
Outro:what's happening.
Heredes:We've been talking, we've been hanging and you're listening to none other than listen. Development officer, the original, the OG for Liberty University here. Is that correct? Yeah, we're talking mercy ship involvement and we're going to dive into now. You did not. You were not captain of the boat, right?
Roy Jones:I was not. Okay, that's not what that place would be lost if I was captain of one of the ships.
Heredes:But and much, much more. The list goes on and we're going to talk a lot today about fit fundraising, about his book Rain Making, but please welcome to the podcast con, the one, the only.
Collin :Roy Jones.
Heredes:Roy Jones. Applause yes.
Collin :How's it going? It's so good to have you. Let me run through real quick 30 years, 30 plus years, and I'm not a heavyweight boxing champion.
Roy Jones:But for the record Roy Jones Jr did give me RoyJonesorg. Oh wow, very cool. It didn't make me fight for it.
Collin :I was going to say you offered. He was like no, I don't want to.
Roy Jones:Once he saw what we were doing and helping nonprofits, he actually gave us theorg.
Heredes:What a great pay per view fundraising. Hey, we're doing a live fight between Roy Jones and Roy Jones.
Roy Jones:I can't outweigh the guy, but I'm an old center from Liberty University. Russell played heavyweight never boxed.
Collin :Oh wow, you get a well MMA then we'll do MMA.
Outro:Take him to the ground.
Collin :Well, it's a 30 plus years of relationship building, coalition development, marketing, fundraising experience. You've got a book out, an award winning book, called Rain Making the Fundraisers Guide to Landing Big Gifts. Talked about service development, vice president at Mercy Ships. You've got degrees and certifications for days served on multiple big boards of big organizations. So I'm really excited to dive into this conversation with you to talk about fundraising and help our nonprofit listeners get the big gifts, get the big donors, because that's how they're going to do their mission.
Heredes:Yeah, you told us about RoyJonesorg already. So well, that can redirect. But tell us about Fit Fundraising.
Roy Jones:Well, we decided to create a brand around what we do and that's really what we do. It started out my wife and I set up a foundation to do training for nonprofit leaders and it was originally called Fundraising Institute Training and that's where the Fit acronym came from and so that kind of stuck and then it went to Fit Fundraising and it really is just helping people understand how to minister to donors, because that's really what we do. There are certain people in nonprofit organizations to get, to get to minister and care for people, for puppies, for kittens, for all kinds of neat things. But I feel called to minister to people who provide the resources to make that stuff happen.
Collin :And so you've got a pretty impressive career behind you, and I think you said you launched this fairly recently.
Roy Jones:Yeah, really, just about seven months ago, we rebranded, staffed up, and we've got about eight clients right now. One of the unique things that we do, though and it's part of our marketing strategy is we provide free fundraising counsel, and so we've actually helped 41 different nonprofits this year. Eight of them started paying us, and so All right, so let's start there.
Heredes:So let's break that down, so you're offering free advice, free counsel, free.
Collin :What does that look like? What do you know?
Roy Jones:Yeah, it usually begins by a lot of people think I can just hire the big bald guy and he's got a secret magic black book of donors.
Heredes:Was that dot com available? Big bald guy Dot com.
Roy Jones:And he's got this secret magic black book and he can just open them up. And people know him and he's you know, he raised 200 million at Mercy Ships. He, you know he raised 400 million over five years at Libby University. He's raised a lot of money other places. A lot of people know him, so they'll just give to me too. Doesn't work that way, yeah, and the first thing I do is start with their donor file. If it's 100 donors, 1,000 donors, 10,000 donors or 50,000 donors, it starts with their file. And what I help them to do to begin with is do a real analysis on our donors climbing the ladder. Are they upgrading? Because what most people fail to realize, these major donors, they don't come from my list, they come from their list and they don't give money away, they make investments.
Heredes:That's good.
Roy Jones:So a big donor, somebody with great capacity, their first gift I mean, I challenge people who's your biggest individual donor? They'll give me a name. So what do you think their first gift was? Oh, 10,000, 50,000. Let's look at the file. Yep, it's usually under a hundred bucks, boom.
Heredes:Testing the waters.
Roy Jones:And that's what they do. They do their giving just like they do their investments. They put a little bit in. They see a return on that investment. They see impact. Guess what they do? They add a zero. That usually takes a major donor three to five gifts before they're at their capacity level.
Roy Jones:And it's getting people to understand that that the solution of the problem they're having with fundraising is right in front of them. Every day. I mean, I'm with ministries, I'm with nonprofits. Every day I hear them say I've been in the room with them when they prayed God, give us a million dollars. We need this. This will help us. God doesn't send money, he sends people. He's with money. Yeah, and it's our job.
Roy Jones:The worst mistake we make in fundraising is asking millionaires for 25 bucks. And we do it every day. And we do it every day and we prayed and we said please, please, you know we, we, you know. And guess what? He provided the solution. And because they were on your chicken list or because you didn't take the time to get to know them, to see what their passion was, to see where their heart was, to see what they had been prepared to do, why they didn't matter whether they were introduced to you through paid search Doesn't matter whether they were introduced to you through through direct mail, doesn't matter whether they were introduced to you through an event or some community activity. They were brought your way for a purpose, and that's our job is showing people. Listen you, you've got to qualify people and that's people, and I mean, of course I'm kind of focused on and sorry to sound like a preacher- but, I'm really focused on the parable of the talents, that's right.
Roy Jones:You know I, you know, I mean you know somebody. God sends me somebody that wants to give a thousand dollars. I'm not going to ask them for 25. And guess what? I do the right thing in a thousand. They're going to add a zero and it becomes 10. They do the right thing with 10. Guess what? They're going to add a zero and it becomes a hundred.
Outro:That's how it happens.
Roy Jones:That's how it happens and so often, you know, we donors go away. Big donors come to a nonprofit and they give a time or two. We treat them like just a regular donor. We send them all this, you know, e blasts and direct mail and and I do all that stuff, you know. But it's our job to find out who they are. And creates you segmentation, create unique messaging so that the bigger capacity donors get bigger projects to look at and the regular donors get the smaller projects to look at.
Heredes:Let's stop, let's pause for a second there. Break that down for a listener. They're a nonprofit leader, c-suite. They've been at it for a while. How are you doing that today? Break segmentating. How are you creating different mess? How are you identifying number one? Let's say it's just an email and a phone number on your list. What are some tips? Some hacks? This is the free stuff, guys. Then you got to call Roy for the rest but you got to stop that.
Roy Jones:Okay, Create free offers, but you'll. Free is a relative term. You only get free if you give me your name and address there we go. So I can't do wealth research with an email. I can't do wealth research with a phone number to be honest with you.
Heredes:Okay, what does it take? Bring it on.
Roy Jones:I need a physical address. Okay, if I have a physical address it's kind of scary, bring it on, but I could. I basically know all the assets registered at that address. Every household in America has been indexed. They pretty much know that the disposable income of every household in America, it's available, any asset you know. You say any asset, pretty much any asset cars. Believe it or not. People forget the security exchange commission is a government entity and guess what the SEC does? They rent that money out. You apply for a small business loan or you apply for a second mortgage. If you don't check the box specifically prohibiting them from using that data before your loan is approved or denied, the wealth profiling companies have it.
Heredes:There it is. This is worth the podcast.
Roy Jones:ladies and gentlemen, we're just going to put this clip on repeat and that's worth that's gold. But you've got to get a physical name and address.
Heredes:That's where the magic happens, and it's funny in a digital world how much we devalue the address Because we feel like an email. Oh, that's a social mail. It's a waste of. Let me tell you something LinkedIn gives me the six figure.
Roy Jones:Here's what I learned at Mercy Ships. Here's what I learned at Libra University. Here's what I've learned when I was at Russ Reed and they had over 600 nonprofit clients. If I can just break even on the direct response program, I'll do that every day.
Outro:Hands down.
Roy Jones:Wow, because I make my money with the big gifts. That's it. You know, if you're netting money in your digital acquisition program, you're not spending enough. If you're making money in your paid search, you're not spending enough. If you're making money in your email marketing campaigns, you're not spending enough, because your net should come from your one-on-ones. How many people are you meeting with? Those are the metrics that count and it's teaching people that. Hey, because here's the thing people with capacity. Don't get me wrong.
Roy Jones:As I said, there's two buckets of donors. There are those that I lovingly call the Widows Might donor. They give everything they have. They give out of Social Security. They don't have a big gift to give, but they give as much as they can. The worst thing you can do is push them or twist their arm. You can push them right out of the boat by asking for too much, but then you have that other group, the parable of the talents group, that they're making investments and they're increasing their giving.
Roy Jones:You've got to spend time with those people. Those people don't do business with strangers. They give on average, according to the Association of Fundraising Professionals, a 7.2 charities a year. Now, when I was at Mercy Ships, we actually surveyed 2,000 of our top donors and found out that they gave to 11 charities a year. So it depends on the nonprofit. But that's what you have to understand. If you don't get with them and build relationships with them, the other nonprofits are and guess what they do. You go from being number one to number four, to number six, to number seven, to giving every other year to guess what they lapsed. Yeah, so when the donors climb up the ladder. But donors can also climb down the ladder and then, if you don't treat them right, they fall off the ladder.
Collin :So so what's? So? What's the secret? Because you know how do we? How do we get them then to continue to climb up the ladder and and not go down right? What's what's? What's the yin and the yang there?
Roy Jones:It's about their passion, not yours. You know, the first thing I did when I got to Mercy ships, we I think they had three people on staff and they had these IBM surface pads and on those pads were loaded PowerPoint presentations and they were going out with donors and flip page, flip page, flip page, flip page. We need this much money here. Flip page, flip place, put it needed here. So I walked in and said I got a new tool and I grabbed those surfaces, picked them up, stacked them on the table. So we have a new tool and if you can't see me, it's been in paper and we're gonna sit and we're gonna talk to people, we're gonna find out what their passion is and Then fundraising is easy.
Roy Jones:You don't need that big PowerPoint deck, you know. You don't need that super demo. It's about their passion. Nine times out of ten they already know what they want to do. They're just waiting for somebody to ask them and you find that out, yeah man by listening, listening, by listening as the best fundraisers are always the best listeners and I've hired Hundreds.
Roy Jones:That's another thing that the firm is doing. We do it right now. We've got two paid searches going on right now. Is is helping our team Higher experience development directors, major gift officers, people with hands-on experience and who are you serving the most?
Heredes:Roy Schools churches, are they? What kind of nonprofits?
Roy Jones:a little bit of everything. We've got a search going on right now at Westminster Academy and in Fort Myers, florida, dr G James Kennedy's former school, and and you know we're we're, you know, excited about serving, serving schools. But then we're, you know we're also doing another one for the CS Lewis Society. Here We've, we've done some staffing for some of the Association of Gospel Rescue missions, what it used to be called. It's now called City Gate Network, but with with some of our clients there and the in the homeless shelter space. You know you're you're looking at a guy. I have slept in 50 homeless shelters across America and and it helped as a fundraising challenge or Just to save them money, and I want to know about their ministry that's
Heredes:amazing and if I go, in to help them Call, and we may need to do that, for like these episodes.
Collin :Hey.
Heredes:I spend the nights when we go the out of state and that's where we'll do the.
Collin :That's what we'll record. There you go.
Roy Jones:I like that. I see you'll, you'll find out something about that ministry.
Heredes:I believe, never one thing that stands out from what you're doing is Now. You've been there, done that, what you have for years now, whether it's Liberty, we mentioned, whether it's Mercy ships and many others, you're in it. You're still doing it. You're meeting with donors face-to-face, you're doing the, the. Tell us why that's important and well it's.
Roy Jones:It's really different in our, in our Industry. To begin with, first, first, all it's. First of all it's. It's unique in that Most people don't want to go through the trouble of Registering as a solicitor in their state, and so registering is fundraising council, that's no problem. Registering as a solicitor, it's a challenge. What, why?
Heredes:Break down the difference.
Roy Jones:Well, it's in some states Florida it's not so bad, but but if I'm wherever, whatever state I'm doing actual fund solicitation in, I have to register as a solicitor. You know some states like New York, I got a post of $50,000 bond, you know. And so because of the of the structure that political leaders have created and again, it's all done for the right reasons it's about transparency. If a donor wants to check out a charity, they need to be able to, to go to the government website, look at their contracts, look at their 990, look at the Firms like fit fundraising that they've engaged with, see what they're being paid. They want to make sure that if they make a donation, that it's going to the charity, not to the big bald guy and so they deserve that.
Roy Jones:So I'm not opposed to that. But because of that, a lot, of, a lot of agencies have gotten out of the field. You know, I mean I, I know hundreds of Agencies and in most of them have not met with the donor in 20 years. Hmm, and things change. Oh yeah, donors engage Differently. I mean, I mean, every four or five years the methodology changes. It goes back and forth. You know, it's, it's interesting. Four years ago, you know, I would tell people, you know, don't use the phone. Donors don't want to use the phone. You know, you got to get face-to-face with people. Today I'm doing more phone work than I've ever done in 20 years.
Heredes:It's, it's the phone is calls or you talk text messaging. You got to do both and integration is the key.
Roy Jones:You know, you do have to use email, you do have to use text, you do have to actually use voicemail and then actually you use all three of those things to to actually have an actual conversation social networks.
Heredes:Tell me about those for a little bit.
Roy Jones:It. It's a Social media, is still PR, not DR. You know it's still public relations. You're still building brand, you're building culture, you're building name ID. It's still not. There are some exceptions, but but for the most part it's still not the space that that that you raise the revenue in. You know, I mean most of these tools that we use. You know I I call them drivers and converters, and so there are drivers that kind of push people to where they can convert, actually make a donation. And again, I call a converter an actual donation, not eyeballs on a page not somebody open something not impressions Great, but but somebody actually gives you money.
Heredes:There's a transaction.
Roy Jones:There's a transaction and and so there's, you got to have the drivers To get people to convert. You know, in the old days, direct mail, that was always a converter. People sent back that reply envelope with a check in it. Well, now direct mail has become a driver. Interesting and so the reply devices don't. You know, probably 50 percent depends on the nonprofit, but I've talked to many. They're seeing as high as 50 percent of all their direct mail donations Come online.
Heredes:So so the website, the QR code, but. But if they didn't.
Roy Jones:If they didn't send the mailing out, they wouldn't go online to get a driver. Yeah and so and so. Direct mail is quickly becoming a driver, not a converter.
Roy Jones:But if you shut down your direct mail program, trust me you're gonna be out of business feel it, yeah, you feel it, yeah, and I know people that have just flipped the switch and, and it's a worst thing you can do Wow, you have to integrate. You got to do both or all, and and, whether it's you know, you touched on them texting email, social media, old-fashioned snail mail.
Heredes:You got to do them all and right. Tell me about this, obviously, here in first and through the podcast. We're, you know, in the business of telling those stories, of sharing the impact, of helping the nonprofits we serve that are listening right now Gage, highlight what's converted, highlight, you know, create the drivers for them. What, what, in your opinion, are essential. These are key, essential drivers that must happen and some that you would say, hey, let's reconsider this or take a look at this. It's not what it's amped up to be any advice there.
Roy Jones:Yeah, I mean you have to be real careful, because if you asked any donor Do you want to get mail the answer is no, no, yes, danny, don't know. Do you want to get more email?
Heredes:No.
Roy Jones:Do you want to get more text messages from us? No, true, okay, so so you know. My recommendation is just to understand. You do have to work with the frequency you know most of the nonprofits I see today are doing, believe it or not, almost one email a day on average. Really 150 to 200 emails a year. And okay, now do the math. If the average nonprofit Wow if the average nonprofit donor is giving to 7.2 charities. They're flooded do the math.
Heredes:They're flooded. Hmm, so is there fatigue there, because I mean other is yeah but?
Roy Jones:but there, the other side is, there are people that read it all and there's results yeah, and Usually I've heard it described, and I think it's more like this it's like a river. You know, you and you throw the the line and hook out there. You don't catch a fish every time you throw it out there, but all the sudden boom, here's this whole school that just happens to be there at that time when you cast, and so you got to keep Casting, yeah, and so that's the problem. If you're not in that space, somebody else is, and so you know. My recommendation, though, is really looking at the using segmentation, and again, every organization has a different level as to what's considered a major donor. You know, when I was at Mercy ships, it was like five figure giving was a major donor. You know, you look at World Vision, six figure giving is a major starting point.
Roy Jones:You know I mean they have a hundred and fifty full-time major gift offices around the country.
Heredes:They're doing. They're doing a bill plus.
Roy Jones:Yes, they're doing a billion dollars a year plus, and they are, they are meet, they meet with a lot of people, you know so. So so they create a treatment. We create a treatment for the, for the, the big donors. It's usually less frequency, but it's more personalized frequency, and what I mean by that is it's not a lot of big fancy graphics, it's not a lot of super amazing video Things.
Roy Jones:They dumb it down simple and and they keep it simple and it really looks like the president sat down an outlook and sent them an outlook message. When they get the, the corresponding letter that goes with it.
Heredes:It really looks like a note from the president.
Roy Jones:He sent that you know laser jet off his desk and it went out that way and the copies written. It's not a lot of we and us and our and this big thing where we're casting this thing to millions. No, it is me and you, hey, jim.
Roy Jones:I want to say thank you, it is, it is very very, and so it's a different Tone, say, might be the same exact offer, the same project, but the tone is different. And then you've got to create middle donor communications and that's kind of a hybrid between the mass marketing the one to many and what I just described, the one to one. Yeah, and and and the biggest difference with your middles, where one to many, you know you're tailoring your ass, not only your offer but your ask amount, how much you're asking for and so and so. Now, with with your, with your majors, you tend to, for the most part, go to open, ask, and so people that look like it's literally a blank.
Heredes:Really, that's at the top tier, right, you're going blank right and you're you.
Roy Jones:Hey, you know, you know you, might you share the goal? You might share the goal, you might share what they've given in the past and it's, you know it's written in such a way hey, a year ago you helped us with a gift for ten thousand dollars. Thank you, I want you to pray about helping us this year. It is mission critical and so you know you can you put that custom in there, but it's, it's not. It's not listed as 10,000, 5,000, 2,500 thousand. It's right.
Collin :It's an open, whereas you would want to do something like that with that kind of that middle level.
Roy Jones:Yes, yes, and, and usually the different people have different preferences. You know, usually you with that middle donor segment, you're not going to use a gift array that's five figures plus. You know, especially if you're building an offer around the number of people fed or the number of people helped, it could just you can kind of look weird. You know your gift of a hundred thousand helps us with fifty thousand meals. You know. I mean, you know, and we're only gonna feed 2000 next week. You know it's and so and so you have to kind of be careful. Offer development is key.
Roy Jones:Yeah, it's good, you know you got to think through these offers when you do segmentation and just realize that the bigger people you know they don't want you spending money on them and their investors.
Heredes:I need to have a question on that. Served at a nonprofit a few years ago Running a raising about 30 million Annually. So fairly, you know, not in the billions, but large but their sophistication yes, um and we developed a tier system, now inspired by American Express Mm-hmm, where you would enter certain levels and it came. It's interesting because I could justify and say that it was successful Because there were conversions there were at results.
Heredes:At the same time, there was a lot of drop-offs because no, obviously was a faith base Say no, I don't want to be categorized or put into this level or this tier, or gold, platinum, black, titanium, and it was a very obvious Type of gift you got. Type of type of treatment you got, type of seat you got. So it became what's that? This is, let's say, decade plus ago. Okay, it made for creative, very easy, because this was categorized right this was very simple.
Heredes:The messaging, the segmentation was clear. Where, where are we today? I think in the consumer. Obviously American Express does well with that in Creating in the first from first class of business class to the access to the lounge right or access to the tickets. Does it work? Have you seen it? What would be your recommendation?
Roy Jones:It really depends on the nonprofit and in some cases it will work and be great. In other cases it won't. Because I mean, what you have to realize is, over time, you are training donors to act a certain way and so if they've been used to responding in that tiered concept, it could work very well, you know. But if, if they really haven't been trained that way, you know that this is our culture and this is how we identify offers, this is how we fund projects, it'll bomb so it. I wish I had a straight answer for you. There's really not. It depends on on the culture in the history. In some cases that's like exactly the right move, in other cases It'll be disaster.
Heredes:That's a great point on the conditioning to of what you're trying, who you're trying on board, because, yeah, it's a culture of the leadership, the culture of the company or the organization that makes sense.
Roy Jones:You know, the the hardest thing for most nonprofits to realize Is that you, the way you grow revenue is by feeding this fight with manpower. And they, they refuse to spend the money to staff up. And and you know that the average major gift officer in America, and and again I've, I've, I've interviewed thousands, I've hired several hundred Over the last couple decades. I've fired 20 or 30. They were, you know, I wouldn't have hired him if they weren't great talkers, but I had to fire them because what I do is measure activity results, right, you know? And again, when I say results, I'm not talking about how much money did they raise. I Don't. I don't count the money, I count the activity put in the work.
Roy Jones:You know how many actual conversations did you have by phone and email and text, what meaningful communications you have, how many face-to-face meetings did you have? How many projects did you discuss? If you're measuring those kind of metrics, gonna raise a lot of money.
Heredes:Is it a numbers game? Right at that point.
Roy Jones:It is.
Heredes:It is if I, if I put a hundred, I'm gonna yield 10 and it's gonna.
Roy Jones:Well and again, but with with these, let me, let me tell you a story, and and I won't give her full name, I won't tell the organization she was with- Samantha Jones from. This. This lady's name was Amy and she's on the West Coast, that's all I'll tell you.
Roy Jones:But she came to me and she said I've got a portfolio of about about 120 names. These people will never, never Be able to give more than a half a million dollars. I know them, I've talked to them, I've met with them, I know what they're giving history as they will never do it. So they trust me, you know, if you will do eight to ten meetings a month, if you will begin to risk, instead of going out and pitching, to go out and have conversations about what they want to do. It's a totally different engagement strategy. I'm not gonna. I'm not. I am not measuring how much money you raised. I'm measuring how many of those kinds of conversations did you have? And Within a year, she, she did like 1.2 million within three years from those same people. Wow, she generated about five million dollars. Wow, hmm.
Outro:Why.
Roy Jones:Because she ministered put in the reps, she put in the reps, you put in the front of them eight a month.
Collin :Yes, eight a month, and just that. Yeah, I'm two visits a week, right?
Heredes:So super curious now. So we're gonna expand for those local and say, well, I have my little zip code or I have my region and I have my state and obviously you're flying all over the country, the world, talk to us about, because in some ways it becomes very sales repi, but it's, we're not sales. There's a development of relationships. Break that down like virtually in 2020. That changed right, that everybody had to figure that out, yes, but climate, I mean I mean these.
Roy Jones:even during COVID, these big investors, they still wanted to meet. Now they may not have been able to take a meeting, or they did one on one end of a table table three masses six feet Right.
Collin :Remember, they're investors.
Heredes:They don't just give money away to strangers and some way more scrutinized, even during that pandemic Right, they wanted to know, they wanted to know more.
Roy Jones:Yeah and, as you know, people gave more during the pandemic and they didn't do that Accidentally. They were intentionally seeking out conversations. Good, they didn't. This didn't happen because we sent some magic email to them or some unique direct mail piece. This happened because they met with major gift specialists one-on-one. That's how it happened. And and again that one-on-one. Don't get me wrong. I do think during the, the peak time of the pandemic, there were a lot of zoom meetings, but I have found people are sick of them right now and and and they, you know they'll do a zoom meeting just to schedule a real meeting.
Heredes:Now, which is so the 8 to 10 like we're gonna use Amy from the West Coast will remain unnamed, but you can find a link to her profile linked in here. Does it have to be? Does a virtual meeting or a phone call to you equate the result of a?
Roy Jones:it can, it can't it absolutely can.
Outro:Okay.
Roy Jones:I call them meaningful contacts. Okay, you know, it can be a move Again if it's conversational. If you're just pitching, stop pitching. We don't raise money by pitching. It doesn't work that way. It is about talking about projects, talking about what the donors thinking about. It's about setting the expectation when people and again I talk about how we train donors with our methodology Donors know, if they fall into one of the programs that I've helped develop that our expectation is. You know, mrs Smith, you know, I promise you and I'll say this on the phone, I'll say this in person Usually, the first time I sit down with somebody, what I like to do, and I wish I could say it was just me, but our board wants me to meet with our top supporters, and you're one of them.
Roy Jones:Thank you last year. Last year, you gave Whatever the number was, you know $20,000, $30 over the last 10 years. You know how many donations you've made. No, we made 287 gifts and, as a matter of fact, you've given a hundred and forty thousand dollars. Thank you.
Roy Jones:Yeah, our board has asked me to meet with you once a year. They want me to give you an impact report on how we spent your money last year. And then they do want me to find out what you want to do this year. They've asked me intentionally not to come in here and just pitch stuff, and so I promise you when I call you, I'm not calling to pitch, I'm calling so that, so that we can have our annual planning meeting and you tell me when your passion is and what you want to do this year, because I find those passions do shift a little bit, mrs Smith, and and now I have other people that have been supporting the same thing for a decade. But but we want this, I want you to know. This is about you. I wish we could do this with every donor. We can't. As you know, we have 23,000 donors to the organization. I can only meet with about a hundred people. You are one of the hundred top people to this organization. That's why I'm calling you.
Collin :That's a masterclass right there. What?
Heredes:Yeah, if you didn't, we're gonna script this and print this. That's fantastic and they love it.
Roy Jones:I love it, they love it. You know I, while I'm there, I'm probing. Okay, you talked about being a good listener. The worst fundraisers are the best talkers, the people that are pitching, the people that you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They're the worst fundraisers. You got to shut up. I mean, if more than 25% of the conversation is you talking, you're not gonna raise any money. It is about the donor telling you what projects they're interested in them understanding, while you're here Again pulling out that high-tech yellow tablet.
Heredes:The lane page yellow tablet.
Roy Jones:And would you care if I wrote that down? It's amazing, and you know I lean in. They lean in. I mean they're amazed that somebody's actually listening to them Right. Then I go to the door and for you for you older folks out there, I call this the Colombo clothes, but some of the younger people call it the door hinge All right, so you want some techniques bring it.
Roy Jones:So. So, as you leave, you've written down. They told you what their one thing is. Everybody's got that one thing. They've told you what it is, what they want to do. As you leave, you know you kind of. Do you remember Colombo, the program?
Outro:I know it's, it's you'll have to go back, and you do it.
Collin :Yes.
Roy Jones:You'll have to YouTube it tonight. But he was this frumpy old detective and Everybody thought he was clueless, didn't know what was going on. You know, he wore old wrinkled overcoat and and it's a British show and no, it's.
Roy Jones:American show and so so. So YouTube it tonight. You'll get a kick out of it, because in every episode you know he's, he's, he's interrogating the, the, the criminal. The criminal thinks he got away with it. He goes to the door, he turns the door knob, he goes to step out and then he looks back. You know what? I forgot something? One more thing, one more thing. And then he asked that one question that just crushes that criminal. He knows they're going to jail. Got him, it got him, and so. So some of my younger audience call that the door hinge.
Outro:So when.
Roy Jones:I get to the door hinge Before I walk out, I tap my head and say, oh now, mrs Smith, you said you had a passion for for helping children. I'd like to go back to our children's program director and find out what our biggest needs are in that area and Come back to you with with a couple of those to look at. How does that sound to you?
Heredes:Guess what boom. Of course, custom custom she's to them.
Roy Jones:Most of the time they say you do that for me, I love it. You do that for me, yeah, you bet I can't do it for everybody. I can only meet with about a hundred people a year. Yes, mrs Smith, I can do it for you.
Heredes:Wow, I love how sincere house, strategic, how successful that that is and engaging and truly it's what donors want.
Roy Jones:Yes, they're waiting for people to treat them like people. They're waiting for somebody to listen to them, not just send them. You know, 200 emails a year, yeah, here's what we need. Or gifts that are gonna get tossed, or you know that they they want a one-on-one relationship and you know they want to do business with people. They know right.
Heredes:Tell me about this. That's an. You know you're developing an engaged donor. Tell me about activation. What kind of conversation are you having with someone? You've identified the address, the zip code, the, and they've given zero and, as far as you know, they're not engaged spend much time with those kind of people really tell me, so why not?
Roy Jones:who should? That's the heaviest left in the business. Anything you read, it's gonna take you six to 18 months to get a donation from that person. Hmm, I don't have that kind of time.
Heredes:So who should? Should we? Should we get into that?
Roy Jones:That's the purpose of direct response. The first gift get 25 bucks from them. So then they'll do a hundred, then they'll do 250, then they do 500. They start to show up on my radar screen then Okay, so let them exercise the muscle in different engagements. Yes, they're gonna engage with you. You know again, that's how they do it. It's. I don't think they sit down with a plan that okay, this year I'm gonna check out ten new charities. But they do it's instinctive, it's a visceral yes they do.
Roy Jones:They make a certain number of their gifts are gonna be smaller gifts. They're gonna put it in and see what happens and and and. That's how you acquire big donors. Don't again, if, if, if and I'm not saying don't ever, because I've I've done a bunch of it myself. But if you're gonna cold call people with capacity, you know who could make a by figure, six-figure gift, don't spend more than 20% of your time doing that, because that's been advice, because you will be looking for a job within six months. Wow, and, and that's. And that's where most of our industry is today and there's a reason for that. You know they get pressure put under desperation, desperation. They're, they're senior management, the board. They don't know how fundraising really happens. You know they think, oh no, major donors come in and they write a $10,000 gift out of the shoot. No, you're wrong. Yeah, it doesn't happen that way.
Collin :So what's so? What's the process then? Once you've identified because you know you leave, you leave the zero Givers alone, you don't worry about them. You, you want to build, build a reputation of an extra giver once you identify, then then what is that process to getting to when our, our, our friend is, where you went and visited and you said you know, this is all you've given. How do you go from? You know? What's the intermediate there, what's the process?
Roy Jones:What takes. It usually takes the first thing, that and this is the hardest part for Development directors, ceos, board chair people and major gift officers to understand. But it usually takes about six months For these donors to first of all believe that oh, he's or she's gonna actually stay there. Because, guess what? You're probably the the 10th person in 10 years To call them from that charity, and they know it is a.
Heredes:Revolving door, revolving door.
Roy Jones:But if they say oh, this guy's persistent, this guy's persistent. And again, you know, I you do you keep, you do have to keep your sanity and you do have to be professional. You know, I'm not saying you pound people, you know, seven times a week for three weeks to get in front of them. No, there's a rhythm to it. You know you're probably doing Initially an email the first week, With a voicemail as well. The second week you're probably gonna send a follow-up email. The third week you're gonna leave a voicemail. If they don't respond, you move on. But again, I'm probably gonna give it two or three weeks and we'll cycle through again and I'm gonna give it about three cycles. It's gonna be, you know, 90 to 180 days of that For them to know you're there.
Roy Jones:There's only one way to get rid of me and that's talk to me. And this is my job and again, I sometimes the truth works. I do not use voicemail, I do not use email, I do not use handwritten notes, as you know. Paid Public service announcements. Hello, this is Roy Jones calling. I just wanted to thank you for supporting the ministry. If you could give me a call back, I won't take much of your time, but but I really would like to talk to you and Again, thank you so much for all you do for us. You are not gonna get a call back with that voicemail. I'm not at all and you know my voicemail. You know usually, and again, if you time it right and you set up a process internally where anybody that's in your portfolio, in your assignments, if they make a gift for any amount, you are to be notified immediately, it's got to be a flag, a trigger on that database system to tell you because that's the best time to get a call returned, because Because that voicemail is hey, this is Roy.
Roy Jones:Have a quick question regarding the donation you just made. Won't keep you on the phone more than a minute, oh, that's give me a call back. Guess what they call you back yeah immediately.
Heredes:They're thinking. They're thinking ten things right.
Collin :Yeah, yeah, they're like what, what happened?
Roy Jones:And I've actually said and I've used that same, that same process with the same donor Dozens of times and they always call you back. That's great, and they usually know I'm calling to set up a visit. Um, they know, after talking to me or time or two, that I rarely use the phone to ask for money. Now I will do it and I have done it, and sometimes I don't intend to do it, but the donor says we don't need to meet. Let me, you know, I've met with them before. I mean, they know me On a first name basis. They know my wife, they, they know about my kids, my grandkids. You know they're, they're my friend. Yeah, so, roy, listen, we don't need to meet. Talk to me about that project you want to talk about. You know, and and Usually it's it's the project that they are to support.
Roy Jones:They probably know more about it than I know. Um and so, and so it's at that point.
Heredes:What's your action? Step there, how do you, how do you not let that slip? Is it a what's the cta?
Roy Jones:It's. It's in some cases I'll I'll just jump right at it. So well, here's what's going on. Um. You know I talked to the program director today, wanted to get your thoughts. We thought this might be something you'd be interested in helping us with, um. You know, last year you helped us with with 10,000 Um. We'd like you to consider a gift of 15 this year. Here are quite a god.
Outro:The next one that speaks loses.
Roy Jones:That's how it works, and it's the same way in person. When I leave a voicemail with people, I never tell them why I'm calling. I make the voicemail about their time and they know if they're on the phone with me once they talk to me at a time or two. I am not the guy that keeps them on the phone for 20 minutes. If they call me back and they're on the phone more than a minute, um it's too long, um that, and that's why I get callbacks, because I've trained them. They know if they call me back, it's going to be quick. I'm not going to use the phone to to chew up their day. Um, that phone is a specific tool, primarily so I can get in front of them.
Heredes:Yeah, and right into how valuable, right in an artificial intelligent world we live in today I'm doing air quotes here how valuable that real touch phone call, humanized, one minute or less, doesn't have to be an hour. Catch up.
Roy Jones:And it's. You know it's, it's integrated, correct? Um, if you're just doing phone calls, you're not going to get a call back. You got to do a phone call, you got to do an email, you got to do text and then now, of course, the latest thing is not just a text. You got to leave a recorded message on the text.
Outro:Or a video or a video. Or a video or a video, yeah.
Roy Jones:And so. But it's integration, I mean even I mean I hate to say this because I so want to, you know. I mean I'm 65 years old, my sons are 40 and 38 and 31. And I so want to talk to them, but usually I get to text them and sometimes we'll actually leave each other voicemails, you know, and but we're going back and forth and that's kind of how people communicate these days.
Heredes:I blinked the boomers man. They did that to us and you know it's a different world. But you got to use them, all you got to use them all you can't ignore Including what you said, the printed pieces, the directs.
Roy Jones:To ignore that, you are leaving the touch points on the table right, and there are some people, especially if they're considering, you know, making a substantial gift they like that piece of paper. There's just something about tangible touching it.
Roy Jones:There's something tactical about it. Tactical about it that they they pray over it literally. Yeah, I've gone into people's homes and they have three or four stacks of certain letters, different things they're thinking about, praying about, and you know it's. I talked about feeding this fight with manpower. You know some military tools here, but there was a Civil War general that said he who gets there the firstest with the mostest wins, and you know the person that spent the right amount of time on that piece of paper, that really tailored that message and made it one to one and really told the story. They're the one that get the money.
Heredes:Yep and they quit. You know I've got five kids, roy, and we've got a bazillion digital photos and things going on on our phones of them. But what makes it to the fridge that drawing? Or that picture that's going to get the daily attention conversation multiple. So there's something to that. Yeah, it doesn't devalue the digital, but there's something about it.
Collin :You saw my drawing up there. I had to take it down.
Roy Jones:It was, you know, we prayed enough for the request.
Roy Jones:That does make me think of another thing that I think really works well in these meetings. They know, after meeting with me a time or two, that I never come empty handed and usually I'm bringing them a gift that was made by somebody. In our program, when I was at Mercy Ships, I used to bring wealthy people over to the ship We'd fly to Africa together. They'd pay for their own trip and I ran into a guy there that had received a surgery and he was a woodcarver and he carved a little giraffe and gave it to me and I said you love doing that, I love it. He said how many of those could you do a month? I said I could do 50 a month. I said what would you sell them to me for? He goes a dollar, of course. $50 a month is probably twice their.
Heredes:Their wage, their wage.
Roy Jones:I said you have a contract, you've been commissioned, and so for a year, the first thing I would do is give every donor I met with something made by one of our clients. Talking about marketing that's right there on their counter every time they look at it, and I mean if their house catches on fire that's coming out with them.
Roy Jones:It means something to them. And again, you talk about children's drawings so many times, whether it's a homeless, shelter, a ministry to families, people in need. Just creating color pages that say that have the words thank you at the bottom and have the kids color those and give it back. And guess what I do? I frame it and mat it with the organization logo at the top. Go to Hobby Lobby. You can buy a frame and mat for $1.50. And that whole thing costs $1.50. And I'm telling you I've gone into people's homes and you've got to kind of keep track because you can't give them the same drawing more than once. So you do have to.
Heredes:You said this was from Suzy last year. Right, You've got to make sure it's a different drawing.
Roy Jones:But that kind of thing. It just makes an. When you can tie the gift to the program in some way, it just means something to the donor. And again, these donors, they all say they don't want to be thanked and they don't want to be treated special and they don't want anybody to do anything special for them. They lie, they do, they absolutely do.
Outro:How many years of experience? 30, 40?.
Roy Jones:Over 40 now.
Heredes:So that plays true, because I've heard that too, roy, I don't want to be anonymous, I don't want people to know, I don't want to.
Roy Jones:You can respect anonymity, but still thank them.
Heredes:That's good.
Roy Jones:And so you do have to be careful about that. The really wealthy people don't want to be recognized, because then you got 10 bald guys showing up on their doorstep. But they appreciate being thanked, and especially if it's from someone connected to your program. Don't go buy something slick. Don't go spend a lot of money on something.
Heredes:So you don't need the Rolex to nurture the gift.
Roy Jones:You don't even need the slick four color brochure and all that. I mean you don't need all that stuff. It's the hands, crafts of some kind.
Collin :The more personal.
Roy Jones:The more personal, the better.
Heredes:Especially at that level. Now the investment is what you said earlier, Roy. The investment to raise is in the development, in the staffing, and it takes that, which is it brings me to. How do they find you? How can they connect with you, those who are listening? They need some more coaching with their current team. Maybe they've got some entry level folks who are just getting started or looking to be CDOs one day in their company.
Roy Jones:And again, remember, I mean how we begin most of our relationships is it starts out in kind of increments of two hour free conversations. We're not charging you. The meter's not running. When I go in to help a nonprofit, I want to find out what's broke and I want to fix that. I don't want to go break something. I don't want to jump into something you're already doing well. No, I want to find the area that you need the most help and run in and help you fix that. But it's really easy. You can go to RoyJonesorg or fitfundersingcom. They take you to the same place.
Heredes:Or the bald guy. We'll get that for you. You guys can get that moniker for me.
Roy Jones:So but yeah, and we'd be happy to talk to you anytime, and it is, it's what I do. And really it's teaching, modeling. And when I say modeling I don't mean in a conference room somewhere. We do some of that, but the real application happens out in the field. When I can go out with people in the field and they see me do this, guess what? They say I can do that, I can do that. And so often they think it's some magic words that you say or some slick presentation or some super secret thing. It's a magic trick.
Heredes:It's not at all. It's not at all.
Roy Jones:It's about loving people. It's about ministering to people. It's about caring for them, finding out what their passion is and then helping them do it.
Heredes:That's great I love that Before we wrap up, colin. Thank you so much, roy. Just for fun fact, do you pay for the meal or do they let them pay for the?
Roy Jones:meal I try to. I always try to. They rarely will let me, and so it's an honor to them to do it. And so there's been occasion where you'll insist, we're all insist, but it's usually after I've warmed out for two months to get the meeting. But in most cases they pay for the meal.
Heredes:This is my last one, Colin.
Roy Jones:I promise officially Okay. Back to where we started.
Heredes:I'm going to close this Back to where we started. You've got their email and their phone number and we talked about the value of that address and you've explained it so incredibly well. How do I get that? What's the best way? How have you seen the best way?
Roy Jones:to get that Free offer Free, free, free Bingo.
Heredes:So it's a value offer.
Roy Jones:Nothing's more important than free.
Heredes:Free book. I'm going to send you a free.
Roy Jones:And again you know, yeah, you could email it to them, but you don't get it unless I get your address. That's the way it works, and so it's you know. And again you're going to need to change those offers out because not everybody responded to that one, so you're going to have to keep fishing with different bait to get that name and address. But it's important.
Heredes:Is there a ratio of a standard value offer price point? There you've seen successful on the offer and again and yeah, it's hard to say.
Roy Jones:I mean, you know a lot of organizations, especially those with larger direct response programs, whether it's DRTV or direct response radio, you know will will create a robust monthly giving program. Those tend to be under 20 bucks, so I've seen them ratcheting up closer to 30 bucks recently. But you know. But it's the. You know the problem people wrestle with to acquire a new donor in a channel other than than digital. You're going to spend between 150 and $250 to acquire a new donor. So what that means is, if the average gift is $100, you know it's going to take two gifts to break even to start to really get started.
Roy Jones:But you get that second gift and the long term donor value on that name is is unbelievable and so it pays for itself. But, but, but, but you know you kind of see that and that's really what you're wrestling with. I mean the downside, and I've, I think, you got to acquire donors. If you're not doing paid search, you're making a mistake. You're going to be able to acquire donors at a fraction of the cost, and when I say fraction, you know 30 to 60 bucks a name versus 150 to $250 a name. You know.
Roy Jones:the downside is you don't tend to get as many people who will wealth profile as a, as a cash millionaire in the digital domain, and so that's why you still want to do direct response acquisition, because you get older donors and older donors have more disposable income. So you still got to have a mix, it's got to be a blend and that's. You know, if I could, when I look across the the nonprofit sector right now, I mean the biggest mistake that people make is putting all their eggs in one basket. They find one thing that works and they boom, jump there without thinking about the long term consequences of that, because when you do that you can punch holes in your file and, yeah, it's good for a while, but long term it can really hurt you. So, again, I think you got to do both, you know, and these new channels that continue to come online to us. We got to use them all. You got to use them all.
Heredes:I love it. And again, one of our, one of our partners I won't name it this time, but same does incredibly well with the 50 plus demographic. You're talking checks in the mail and millions and millions shifted there, still doing that, but going to a TikTok approach and Instagram and digital thinking long term thinking well, that's going to be the 50 year old and they want the brand awareness and that's helping them understand that they've been around, they're trusted, there's tenure, there's here's what they've been doing.
Heredes:So, when that so very interesting shift, because then you're talking, the segmentation there is obviously pulled.
Collin :I just make sure to group of 50 year olds doing dance.
Heredes:And that's how we're going about.
Roy Jones:That's right, I'll be, that'll be me, we're going to go for costumes.
Heredes:There you go.
Collin :Yes, thanks for doing that, roy, this has been, this has been great. What an incredible. Well, I'll just say you're welcome to our listeners, because we gave you something for free today that you probably should have paid for it. But thank you so much. Hey, fitfundraisingcom, if you're a nonprofit leader, if you, if you need to, if you need money which is 100% of people everywhere, fitfundraisingcom Rain Making Book make sure to pick that up as well.
Roy Jones:We'll put the link here for the Amazon link yeah. All the links, everything is going to be down there. If you have trouble sleeping at night, that Rain Baking Book can help you.
Heredes:So so I love it.
Collin :Is it because it'll give more cash in your pocket and that's going to make you various?
Heredes:And, by the way, you know, Roy's in the Florida area, Tampa Bay region. I'm sure if you want to pay for his lunch or shadow him at a lunch to listen in. I'm sure he'll have coffee and pick his brain, and I'm sure there's a lot of leaders out there in the Florida region that he'll fly to you as well when he's out and about.
Collin :So thank you, roy Roy, thank you for helping us, helping us help leaders to go further and grow faster, and thank you guys for listening. We will see you on the next episode of the nonprofit Renaissance.
Outro:Thanks again for listening to the nonprofit Renaissance. We hope it ignites a Renaissance in you and helps you go further and grow faster. Be sure to share, rate and subscribe, and if you'd like to recommend or be a guest on our show, send us an email at podcastatverscreativecom.