Discover the transformative power of strategic staffing with Tim Foot and Brooke Hodnefield from Slingshot Group, who share their expertise on building resilient nonprofit teams. In a world where aligning personal convictions with an organization's mission has never been more crucial, our guests unravel the complexity of talent retention and innovative hiring. This episode breaks down the nuances of recruitment and the art of creating a workplace culture that resonates with everyone's values, offering a treasure trove of insights for nonprofit leaders looking to forge ahead in a post-pandemic world.
The conversation takes you behind the scenes of Slingshot's distinctive approach to staffing, revealing the foundational role of relationship-building in matching the right talent to the right organization. As Tim and Brooke recount stories from the trenches, they shed light on the delicate dance of managing expectations during the hiring process. Get ready to uncover the secrets to successful leadership searches, and learn why sometimes, patience isn't just a virtue—it's a necessity for finding the perfect fit.
We wrap up with an exploration of work-life integration, and how today's candidates are weighing flexibility and culture against traditional compensation. At the intersection of human touch and the rising trend of AI in recruitment, this episode serves as a reminder that technology is a tool, not a replacement for the nuanced art of hiring. And for those navigating the challenges of fractional employment, our guests share strategies that prove to be both effective and inspiring. If you're ready to elevate your nonprofit's hiring game, this dialogue is not one to miss. Join us to harness the strategies that will steer your organization towards long-term growth and success.
Show Notes
The Nonprofit Renaissance is Powered by Vers Creative. An award winning creative agency trusted by global brands and businesses.
Follow @collinhoke
Follow @heredes
Follow @vers_creative
Work with Vers
Discover the transformative power of strategic staffing with Tim Foot and Brooke Hodnefield from Slingshot Group, who share their expertise on building resilient nonprofit teams. In a world where aligning personal convictions with an organization's mission has never been more crucial, our guests unravel the complexity of talent retention and innovative hiring. This episode breaks down the nuances of recruitment and the art of creating a workplace culture that resonates with everyone's values, offering a treasure trove of insights for nonprofit leaders looking to forge ahead in a post-pandemic world.
The conversation takes you behind the scenes of Slingshot's distinctive approach to staffing, revealing the foundational role of relationship-building in matching the right talent to the right organization. As Tim and Brooke recount stories from the trenches, they shed light on the delicate dance of managing expectations during the hiring process. Get ready to uncover the secrets to successful leadership searches, and learn why sometimes, patience isn't just a virtue—it's a necessity for finding the perfect fit.
We wrap up with an exploration of work-life integration, and how today's candidates are weighing flexibility and culture against traditional compensation. At the intersection of human touch and the rising trend of AI in recruitment, this episode serves as a reminder that technology is a tool, not a replacement for the nuanced art of hiring. And for those navigating the challenges of fractional employment, our guests share strategies that prove to be both effective and inspiring. If you're ready to elevate your nonprofit's hiring game, this dialogue is not one to miss. Join us to harness the strategies that will steer your organization towards long-term growth and success.
Show Notes
The Nonprofit Renaissance is Powered by Vers Creative. An award winning creative agency trusted by global brands and businesses.
Follow @collinhoke
Follow @heredes
Follow @vers_creative
Work with Vers
Welcome back to the Nonprofit Renaissance, where we help nonprofit leaders go further and grow faster. I'm one of your co-hosts, colin, and in this episode, h and Justin are joined by special guests Tim Foote and Brooke Hodnafield, a slingshot group who are seasoned experts in nonprofit staffing and organizational growth. In today's episode, we're diving into the topics of talent retention, innovative hiring practices, post-pandemic and how strategic staffing can revolutionize nonprofit operations. I hope that you're ready for an insightful discussion on building resilient teams that drive mission success. Let's go and let's grow.
Justin:I would absolutely love to know how Brooke came on and how she connected with you guys.
Tim Foot:Yeah.
Justin:Come on.
Tim Foot:Brooke, that's a story.
Brooke Hodenfiled:Okay, so my journey to Slingshot in a in a succinct form, Um, so my background is just like a melting pot of all these different things and my, honestly, my life's journey and moving around and my story is a melting pot, Even my denominational journey, my faith journey, um also represents all those things. And so, um, I had been working at a nonprofit. I was doing strategic partnerships and volunteer management and training and you know all the things in nonprofit world that starts with one job and then you end up with like 10. I was doing that and it was supposed to be part time and I was definitely not working part time kind of had the crash and burn moment. I had a kindergartner that was supposed to be off the bus to grandma. I had scheduled grandma on the wrong day, so I had a kindergartner that was riding around the bus like alone and the school called and they had to take him back to school which horrible. And I was across town. I know it was really bad. So I get the call that Tyson is sitting back at school and I have to go pick him up, and so I'm I'm like crying on the way there because I'm like the wheels have fallen off.
Brooke Hodenfiled:I've taken on more than I can chew, transitioned away, took a, took a break, ended up doing some stuff at my church and there was this great gospel centered life design so life planning type stuff, if you're familiar with that, but just like gospel centered. So life planning type stuff, if you're familiar with that, but just like gospel centered. One of the co-creators happened to be a friend of Slingshot and said hey, you know, some of what we do here with life planning with people would be amazing to do as people are transitioning and as someone's considering to make a career jump or just exploring what's next sector to sector or just what's next on their journey of life. So we kind of put together this idea, this kind of a workshop of sorts, to help people navigate transition using some of these tools and some of the things I've been trained on, and I honestly had no idea who the slingshot people were. I'm like, oh, that's a cool name, I like yellow and that's good, and so truthfully, built out this thing and I'm like, sure, let's go talk to about this, this thing, to these people and let's go out to Irvine. It sounds awesome. And so in the in the 11th hour it ended up that the person that was going to go with me was not able to go and they're like you got this. Just you go talk to the people. You're passionate about this thing, and definitely was.
Brooke Hodenfiled:So I show up in Irvine and I get to meet the co-founders of Slingshot and our COO who's currently our COO, and other higher ups at Slingshot and immediately I felt at peace and just loved the way that these people showed up. It was. They were interactive, they were relational, they cared first about like who I was before, even what I was there to do and talk to them about. And my keynote presentation was showing my presenter notes. I could, for the life of me, not figure out in that moment how to take the presenter notes off and thankfully, like you know, they rolled with it. They're like it's all good, this stuff happens.
Brooke Hodenfiled:So long story short, the thing that I came to share and our idea wasn't the right thing for the moment, but I could not shake how I felt and the culture that just totally drew me in. And I recognize I have all these weird pieces in my journey of church and nonprofit and for-profit and recruiting and ministry and just a big mix of stuff and it just all in this moment was like came together, that God had equipped and designed me to step into this role and honestly help other people do the same thing with all their weird pieces that they have. That sometimes doesn't make sense until someone else can see it. So that's my story.
Tim Foot:It's a great story, Brooke.
Tim Foot:One of the things I want to add to that is our favorite piece of the work that we get to do is when the mission of the leader matches and aligns with the mission of the organization in transitional seasons, even when you don't realize you're in a transitional season, and the way Brooke embodies our culture and did on that day and we just knew we needed Brooke on our team, and then how that shows up in our nonprofit division of Slingshot is our unfair advantage, I think, in the staffing and culture and strategy space, coaching space in nonprofit. So we just love all that Brooke and her team brings. I don't even remember you not being able to turn off your presenter notes, brooke.
Brooke Hodenfiled:Oh, it was real. I remember it. I totally remember it. I love that.
Heredes:And were you wearing yellow? Were you on brand from day one?
Brooke Hodenfiled:No, I wasn't. I bet I still have those pants. I remember the pants I wore. They were not yellow. That would have been a little too bold, I think.
Tim Foot:Looking at team knows I prefer slingshot green to slingshot yellow right, yeah, it's true, there's a divide, there's a divide Although. I do have yellow over my shoulder there, so We'll put a pull out to our listeners.
Heredes:But, guys, since I love it that you guys, what you do is you know who you are you've built a remarkable team and, uh, you are remarkable folks. Ever since I've met the founders, years and years ago, it feels like a decade plus how long, how long has slingshot been? Um, well, putting people in their place 17 years, now 17 years, I think 17.
Tim Foot:So yeah, I'm, I'm in a. Yeah, I'm in my gosh. I've got to do all the numbers 13th year. But I, when I came on, we were just a handful of. There was probably five of us and we were a handful of staffing and coaching engagements. When Brooke joined us, I think we were probably half the size, maybe a little bit more, than we are now.
Brooke Hodenfiled:Like 35, 40 people Amazing.
Tim Foot:Now there's 65 of us around the country and we get to engage with between 300 and 400 organizations a year, so there is never a dull moment over at Slingshot Friends.
Heredes:I love it.
Tim Foot:There's all kinds of variety, given that we do so much work across ministry organizations, nonprofit in church.
Heredes:But you know, both Justin and I have, you know, seen the fruit of that, because we get to work with the same churches that either folks that you've put in place and building those teams. We get to engage with them creatively, you know, on the marketing side, on the video, film, design, all of the above. Tell us this, and then Justin's going to jump in here because we're going to put you guys on the hot seat today because a lot of great content out there you guys have shared great podcasts, great resources for churches that we've seen. But today we're going to kind of flip the script on you guys a little bit, just for fun, just to kind of little—we're taping this in the year of election here.
Collin:Let's go yeah no-transcript.
Brooke Hodenfiled:Yeah, I mean I'll speak to the nonprofit world, which is the world that I live and breathe on the daily. I would say the first one is just talents on the move. There is such a churn that's going on everywhere, across every space and every organization. It feels that that is true, every space and every organization. It feels that that is true Even more so if you double click on that. I think the churn is real in the development arena. If you're a fundraiser, if you are trying to hire a fundraiser, you are experiencing this, and the longevity and tenure of a fundraising professional has decreased over time, even from 18 months to 16 months, being the average in the last year. So it's going in the opposite direction, which is really wreaking havoc, I think, on nonprofit organizations because they can't keep development professionals, and development professionals have a lot of options right now. So that's one of the first things that comes to mind for me.
Tim Foot:I would add that it's a candidate's market now. It used to be pre-pandemic that you'd get a ton of applications and you'd be able to pick and choose. But now, with all the kind of remote work opportunities and contract work opportunities that have grown out of the pandemic, I think people have just become more innovative in how they staff. We really need to tell a compelling story and it's usually necessary for a third party to tell that for an organization as to why a person would want to be a part of the mission and vision and story of a given nonprofit or ministry organization. So I'd say that's a big thing that's changed. It's a candidate's market and as much as you think you're interviewing for your new leader, your new leader or group of candidates are absolutely interviewing you.
Heredes:That's good. What is the slingshot process? Is there something you guys have coined, patented, figured out this? Is it the secret sauce, the silver lining? What's the process? And matching, and specifically Brooke, with the nonprofit and the growth in that kind of wing for Slingshot in the last couple of years and decade, what's been that process for you in placing and positioning, putting people in their place?
Brooke Hodenfiled:Yeah, I think the thing that we do so well, that makes us different, is relationships at the epicenter of everything we do, and it's a ripple effect, because you can post and place things as many places as you want to and expect people to come, but they're not coming.
Brooke Hodenfiled:So everything is built on relationship and it's a long game. It is a patience and persistence game that we are about and, honestly too, just allowing for God's movement in that and timing to be that way, and being patient with the candidates we interact with as well as the organizations we do, and also just to be able to speak truth in kind ways, to see we want to leave both individuals and organizations better than we found them, and so, whatever our intersection, our paths cross with a leader or with an organization. That is our hope and our desire. We're not cookie cutter, so every time we work with someone, we're doing it in a unique and special way, based upon what we know that that person or that organization needs. That we know is going to be different from one to the next, and I think we take the time to be curious and learn and ask those questions so that we can care for each person, each organization, each situation in a way that stewards them where they are but still brings growth and brings them in a direction of forward movement.
Tim Foot:We don't want to just spit ball a ceiling or throw darts at a dartboard with candidates. We're all about you know you take the slingshot analogy. We're all about the right stones in the slingshot when we actually take that shot, and so we truly get to know the organization. I think that really sets Slingshot apart. Organizations we work with feel like we're a part of their staff because in a sense we're adjunct staff for the duration of the search.
Tim Foot:We will not do a search without getting on site and really getting to know an organization. We believe prescription without diagnosis is malpractice and so we're not going to just try and do a transactional approach. It's going to be relational and we are going to get to know every organization so that when we actually present candidates it's candidates that we really believe can be the right match. We've got a great proprietary match tool that we continue to develop and hone. We've got a roadmap for the whole process. We've got a proprietary way that we present candidates when it comes time to present. So there's a unique slingshot touch every step of the way.
Heredes:Now, tim, tim, I've got the money, I've got the resources. I need it. Next week, send me somebody. Come on, throw your stones this way, come on, I can't wait.
Justin:You guys have like a VIP list that's like if I'm willing to pay more, you got those. Like you're just holding them off. They're all stars, they're just rock stars.
Heredes:Yes.
Tim Foot:How do you handle that? One thing you're going to learn about Slingshot is we tell the truth, and the truth is you're not going to have your leader next week.
Brooke Hodenfiled:Or you're going to have a crummy one.
Tim Foot:Exactly, and we're also going to tell you that the people business is a messy business. Staffing is hard work and it's going to get messy, which is why we invest so much in relationships at the start of the process and we believe you want to partner with Slingshot because when it does get messy we're going to lean in in the right, healthy kind of way and also we're going to determine at the beginning whether you're actually ready for search, and often an organization that says we want somebody next week to throw us somebody, often those organizations aren't actually ready for the search. That's a dead giveaway, isn't it, brooke?
Tim Foot:That's a little warning sign that the organization mightn't actually be ready for a staff search, and we're not afraid to say so and then talk about how we can get ready. Would you add something to that, brooke?
Brooke Hodenfiled:Yeah, I mean.
Brooke Hodenfiled:What I would say, too, is that it's equal parts art and science.
Brooke Hodenfiled:We have to know what we're doing, of course, and we have to have the infrastructure to support it, but when an organization wants to jump and go in with just send me names, give me people, we don't care about the site visit then what that tells us is the candidate's probably not going to be well cared for and step into an environment of potentially chaos and lack of clarity and they are just looking for a hole to fill.
Brooke Hodenfiled:And that's not the business that we want to be about, because, in good faith, we're working with candidates that are entrusting us to help them steward their journey and their transition and their life and their family. So we consider it an honor and a privilege to do that with both the organizations we serve and the candidates we serve. So, relationships critical, getting on sites critical, because it's in the same way. You can't speak to something in a secondhand way. We want to be able to translate culture and their values and what it felt like to be up amongst the leadership team that a person would actually sit amongst, versus just kind of in a robotic, secondhand, vague way.
Brooke Hodenfiled:That's not actually going to give someone a compelling understanding of an opportunity.
Justin:I love that idea that you guys go on site because that's an expense. That's a. It takes time, um, it takes person like your, you know, personnel to be there, not just the time to travel and the expense to do it. Um, what is one of the worst experiences you had when you got on site, like don't, please, don't say the name, I don't want you to throw anybody under the bus but like what is an organization? You got on site with Brooke and you were just like I can, you are not ready to hire anybody.
Brooke Hodenfiled:Oh, man, okay, oh, there's so many interesting ones, okay, we have time.
Brooke Hodenfiled:Okay, so I'm going to, on behalf of my team, I'm going to tell two. That is really intriguing. One required a dust buster and it was already there in the room of this place where they offered this team member team member to stay. Um, because they had a ladybug infestation, so she had to go around and just like zap up the ladybugs the whole time that she was on site. Um. Another another one, uh, was requiring that shoes come off as soon as you enter their office space, cause they were really stewarding what they had created really well and that was really important to them. Um, and so we loved on that organization and sent them slippers afterwards, because how cool you come, you got to have your slippers.
Brooke Hodenfiled:I got to go to Honduras for an organization that we're currently working with and have been working with for a while, because they were hiring their director of international operations, now COO, and they felt like this person needs to know what it's like to be on site in Honduras with the team. They're required to speak Spanish, like stateside is going to do nothing as a site visit. So that was a pretty cool one going on site, the worst one and then I'll let Tim jump in Probably I would say not the worst one, but just I'll let Tim jump in at that table was basically the pathway of either letting go and finding a leader to take over the helm or the implosion of a nonprofit, and ultimately that's what ended up happening and we got to the point where we did our best to help them work through some of those things, but at the end of the day that organization was laid to rest and it was really sad honestly, I find it interesting, brooke, that those first three examples you gave, actually those relationships and searches turned out well, oh, fantastic.
Tim Foot:Yeah, they were unique situations. They were memorable rather than disastrous. Yeah, true, the disastrous ones are where there is a lack of intentionality. There, right? True, yeah, the disastrous ones are where there is lack of intentionality, there's lack of planning. They don't allow us to speak to the people that we really need to speak to, or when we work out that what we suspected was high-level dysfunction and we're willing to step into high-level dysfunction any day of the week We'll run into a burning building for the sake of ministry and mission any day of the week. We'll run into a burning building for the sake of ministry and mission any day of the week.
Tim Foot:When it's toxic. That's when it's sadly disappointing because it affects the team, it affects kingdom. Impact and toxicity can often track back to the head of an organization and where we know that in most cases the head of an organization is untouchable. And I think part of that, Brooke, is where we're seeing founders who are transitioning out and succession needs to happen.
Justin:That's why we love to do succession coaching, because then we can really affect the trajectory of an organization three like toxic traits that if you walk in and and you start working with an organization you maybe even show up on on site and you notice those things it's a big red flag, if not like a deal breaker, for you to work with them, at least something for you to address. Are there a couple of things that you guys kind of uh train your team to look for or be on watch?
Brooke Hodenfiled:I mean, I would say what's really unfortunate is you don't even have to train your team for this, because that's why it's so. It's palpable. I mean, you can, you can feel it, you can see it, you can you, you really don't have to look hard for it because it's been normalized or it's been squelched and hidden. The other thing I would say is you know, we have individual conversations with team members that are going to be supporting and around the role that we're finding and identifying and often when you come back and you feel like it was less of a site visit and more of like counseling and therapy and pastoring that you're doing, you know there's some heavy stuff that's left undealt with and that that's really weighty um for for us because we want to, um, just navigate that really well, and it can be really delicate, but that, I would say, is a surefire sign of of toxicity.
Brooke Hodenfiled:Um, those kinds of heavy and hard conversations that are just surface because they're like someone anyone cares to hear about what's actually happening here.
Tim Foot:Yeah yeah, we hire great team members who are all coaches, and I think that's part of what sets Slingshot apart too is all of our search associates are coaches and so they can spot it really quickly and if it's on Brooke's team, she'll get a call same day, and if it's high level toxicity, I'll get a call from Brooke same day and we'll be processing how we need to handle this and how we need to love an organization well through it. Often it's vision void. Often it's lack of communication internally, it's breakdown of relational equity on the team, it's infighting the meetings, outside of the meetings, anxiety is not getting addressed. All of those things that you would guess are signposts that point us to toxic culture.
Justin:Sure, those sound too familiar for some of us and I love that you guys are able to address it. Be honest, tackle that head on before adding to the mess and the toxicity, putting new stuff in there. That's super cool. I know I was thinking a lot about the conversation with you guys and the opportunity to chat and I was thinking about the transitional experiences that nonprofits are having. Who are like for the longest time they only staffed from within. You know who I'm talking about.
Justin:Those organizations are like you got to be a volunteer here, because if you're bought in as a volunteer or you've been participating or donating or serving inside of this organization, that's where we get our people from and they never look outside of the organization for expertise. That would bring the, you know, elevate the organization to a different level Cause they uh, for one reason or another, they believe typically the leaders believe that is the purest way to maintain our mission and to be true to who we are. If we let outsiders in, we might lose our DNA, we might not be as pure and authentically who we are. How do you break through that idea of like man? It's got to be this traditional path that we've grown our healthy organization for 25 or 35 years this way, and now here we are, post pandemic, and it's not in their best interest. They don't have that good of a market to choose from and the people that they're looking at they're going. I don't know if anybody's really qualified to help us grow.
Brooke Hodenfiled:Yeah, it's interesting. We're actually we've had the privilege of working with organizations that think exclusively external and also that think exclusively internal, and so what you're describing is something very familiar for us. I would say the first thing we would ask is like is it working? Do you have what you need with the talent within your room and within your structure right now? And, if not, have you considered exploring outside of the inner circle?
Brooke Hodenfiled:Because it could be that there's a perspective that's missing or someone that you don't have at the table because you've only considered kind of your own blood and there can definitely be pros to that and value in that but at the same time, there's also things that could be completely overlooked and missing, that could elevate an organization to a next level. So we would definitely challenge that and just invite them to consider a different pathway. And I think oftentimes what we are doing is translating value and helping people see talent and value where they haven't considered or thought about looking at it, because it looks different now and they're coming from different sectors and what previously classically trained is what you're looking for. You might be looking for something you don't know you're looking for, but if no one pushes back and no one asks the question, then you don't know to consider that either.
Tim Foot:An important question at the start of the hiring process is the same question at the start of any kind of strategic movement process forward in an organization, and that is who are we? Because identity determines function, identity determines the growth of your team. It's asking the right questions, because the quality of your questions determine the power of your mission. And so when you ask who you are, then you realize how well you know yourselves. Then you start asking culture questions. Then you start asking culture questions, and when you start asking culture questions, you start realizing either we need to perpetuate the good stuff that's happening here or we need to grow our culture in a better, healthier direction. And the answer to those two questions are whether you continue to promote internally or hire within your network, or whether you hire on the outside.
Tim Foot:And so many organizations need to expand their culture and grow it and therefore they need to look outside of the pools they're used to fishing in. And so often our teams can become an echo chamber. It's people that all think the same way that we do, and that's no way to grow. And so we can just piggybacking on what Brooke was saying we can come in and ask those expanding questions that cause you to go. Oh yeah, we need somebody from the outside. Or sometimes we'll go into an organization and say you're in a really healthy spot right now and I'm not sure you've seen but that person. You're going to lose them if you don't give them a growth opportunity, and so let us help you know how to help them step up into a role that's going to be catalytic for the future of this organization, but also for their leadership, and will help them stay on board.
Justin:That's where the coaching really is necessary, right, that's where the coaching really is necessary, right?
Heredes:Let me ask for our listeners. It's 30% nonprofit business leaders, 30%. Churches, 30%, you know Christian faith-based. You know businesses that may have never engaged with a search, you know group or hired from the outside To them. It's a risk To them, it's looking, it's expensive, it's expensive, it's not comfortable. What would you tell them? And sharing a little bit of what you just shared and how do you measure success? How do I know? How do you guarantee it's like Tim Brooke, I just want to know If I'm going to put myself out there and put my baby out here, if I may, and we've got a good thing going. What's success? How do you measure that? How do you track that? And how would you guarantee to somebody looking or maybe listening right now who's like considering it, but just not sure, not yet.
Brooke Hodenfiled:Yeah, I'll jump in on the like. Why would you consider using a search organization? Like us, I think one of the first things that we find often working with boards and whoever it is that's stewarding this search process. Oftentimes they don't have the time. Their time is better spent moving the mission forward, leading an organization, leading a board, and they simply don't have the time to do it.
Brooke Hodenfiled:Secondly is that they may not have access to the right kind of leaders or even know where to start to your question earlier inside, outside one or the other, maybe a combination of both, they don't have the expertise or they're too close to it to be able to really have an unbiased viewpoint of how best you might move forward.
Brooke Hodenfiled:And so, having a different set of eyes that can kind of come from a global perspective and also have just a pulse on what's happening in the talent market and how do you become competitive, how are you making this the most compelling opportunity possible? And walking alongside an organization and ask those really important questions to get them thinking more so about the quality of the leader and the quality of the role, versus just filling the role with a person. I mean all the ancillary important things that really are what are going to make a leader stay and not and retain that person so they can do it on their own and maybe not ask those questions. But it could be that in six months or however many long, it's not done in a way that the person's going to stick around and stay and ultimately you're back at square one. You've lost your time, you've lost your mission momentum and you don't have a guide or a trusted partner to help you navigate that road ahead. So that's a common conversation we have for sure.
Tim Foot:Hiring is harder than it's ever been. I mean, even pre-pandemic world with social media, it is just harder than it's ever been. It's not like just calling up a bunch of friends. And your time, your leadership, time and energy is your greatest commodity, and so the hours you spend working search, when it's something that a group like us lives and breathes all the time, the hours you actually expend doing something that you're not used to doing all the time, will end up costing you more than whatever you'll ever pay a search group. So that is so, so important to take that into account. How do we measure success? I mean we started this what 17 years ago in the church space, when it wasn't happening in the church space because of a stat that we were concerned about and that is ministry people were staying less than two years and that was really, really concerning. We believe our process sets leaders up for five years and beyond, and then to branch out and now be growing so rapidly in the nonprofit world and to be able to scale what we learned in ministry organizations to faith-focused nonprofits and even some faith-focused for-profits, like you guys do, has been so great to see how our relational approach can really affect, move Mission Forward. So to see leaders stay at an organization is probably the biggest measure of success. Now, yes, we do have a guarantee, like if a life event happens or a family doesn't make a move or kids struggle, we'll re-engage in under 12 months and even beyond that. We want each organization we work with to be a raving slingshot fan. So we're going to do the right thing. But also we look deeper at the science of it. Brooke talked about the art and the science, but the science of it is when we look at a leader and we come back and we stay connected to an organization, which is always our hope that we'll be a trusted partner when it comes to the people side of the organization.
Tim Foot:But is that leader bringing immediate chemistry to that organization? Is there a sense of chemistry that's moving mission and vision and the work forward? Is there increased team health with that person being on that team? Is there an increased level of team health? For us, that's what we want to be known as the healthy team people, and so we're all about finding the right person to help the team be healthy. Is that person providing a high individual contribution? So is their individual contribution strong to the organization.
Tim Foot:We love it when organizations said you placed John or Sally and they are doing an amazing job. I mean, it was immediately evident to us, which is why we have our first 90-day coaching resource that we provide with each search as well, so the new leader on the team can connect well with their supervisor or the board or whatever that reporting relationship is. Is there increased ministry momentum, organizational momentum? Is it moving the organization forward faster? And then is there increased organizational capacity? We want a person to come on board, learn that organization quickly, so there's greater ROI sooner, there's greater organizational capacity sooner. So those are some of the things that the science side of it that we'll look at. Yeah.
Heredes:Tim, I want to squash this rumor really quick. You talked about the first 90 days and the coaching and word on the street. Now I've verified the health, the people you've placed, our friends, our colleagues, our peers for the last 17 years Rumor. The word on the street is that there are no job descriptions, or you guys wait till 90 days, six months, to then write a job description. Tell us more about this. It's a founder mentality or we wouldn't get hired.
Tim Foot:That's not true at all. Eridis, one of our co-founders, who's a real creative thinker. He said I wish that you didn't have to create a job description until a leader was in the role for six months. His thinking behind that is genius, because we've all heard the saying get the right person on the bus and we will say, when we're in the strategic planning process for a search, we will say personalities will drive searches, meaning we can have the best plan in the world, like Mike Tyson said.
Tim Foot:Right, and we get into a search, we start connecting with personalities that we have chemistry with and the job description that we thought we were hiring might shift a little. We were hiring might shift a little. So the thought behind that, which one of our co-founders, stan, said one time, is hey, if we could get the right person. We'll often say, hey, this might be the person you thought you wanted, but this is the person you want on your team. Sometimes we'll go out and do a search for a specific leader. We'll end up hiring two people, sometimes even three people or even four people. I can think of an organization, right, brooke, that we started with one and then we ended up hiring four people.
Tim Foot:It was obviously a bigger organization but, it was because we started seeing people that they wanted on their team and they were creating a role for those people. Now organizations that think that creatively can say, yes, I want that person on the team and this is the rough role I want them to perform on our team. But that's going to evolve in the first six or 12 months during their time. Also, I would say Eris, to your point. Great leaders will not be doing the same job in two to five years, either at your organization or at some other organization.
Heredes:One more time. One more time for the cheap seats. A little louder.
Tim Foot:Great leaders will not always be doing the same job in two years or five years' time. You get to decide whether that's on your team or off your team.
Heredes:Wow, we'll be right back after this break. Ladies and gentlemen. Thank you, wow, that's fantastic man that'll preach. Thank you, wow, that's that. That's that's man that that'll preach. That'll preach to him, and I'm sure you guys see that firsthand, front row right. All the organizations.
Tim Foot:In our own organization, sure.
Heredes:Wow, yeah, go ahead.
Brooke Hodenfiled:I say I'll just piggyback on that, because I would say that is the most common reason. We talk to people that are considering a jump that never would have guessed or expected. Like they love the work they do, they love the mission, they will say I thought I was going to ride off into the sunset here at this organization and it's because they are not seen or heard or invested in or listened to or given an opportunity, to Tim's point, to flourish.
Brooke Hodenfiled:And a high-capacity leader is not going to just stay put. They want to grow, they want to have opportunities to be developed and move upward in an organization to bring more impact. And if you don't take note of those people, it's true They'll find their way into a place where they can offer up those things and be seen for that.
Heredes:Brooke, let me ask you about, in the nonprofit sector, what's the fundamental difference between, you know, staffing for nonprofit and then staffing for the for-profit sector. If somebody's looking and it's like, well, it's the same difference, right? People are people, tell us a little bit, and it's like, well, it's the same difference, right?
Brooke Hodenfiled:People are.
Brooke Hodenfiled:People Tell us a little bit, yeah, well, and it's interesting because part of my early recruiting days was in health care and staffing and health care organizations and working with hospitals.
Brooke Hodenfiled:And it is interesting because there is a very stark difference, because oftentimes a nonprofit leader or someone that's looking to have a fulfilling, thriving, ministry-filled career, it's often because there's something within them, within their identity, that speaks to the calling or the mission of the organization and they feel drawn and compelled toward that organization and even at the stake of maybe sacrificing some things to take an opportunity or a role, because they feel so fulfilled by the work that they're doing that their identity, even their personal values maybe, are tied up in the work that they do.
Brooke Hodenfiled:So they're willing to invest more, do more in ways that I never saw, to the same level or degree in the for-profit sector. And you can be passionate, you can be all in in a for-profit world. I'm not saying one is better than the other, it's wherever God's called you you can do good work. But I feel like there's an interesting, sometimes in an unhealthy way, your identity can be wrapped up in a mission and you forsake things because you care so much and you have a bleeding heart or so invested in the work that you're doing, so that, in my mind, is one of the greatest distinctions I personally have seen, at least.
Tim Foot:That's really good.
Tim Foot:Often we'll need to translate for boards of nonprofits, and often in the church space too, that are marketplace leaders, which is one of the things I love about the work we get to do, because we work with so many different people doing interesting jobs that sit on boards.
Tim Foot:But we'll need to contextualize the difference between faith-based search whether it be for-profit or non-profit, or church as opposed to secular marketplace search, because usually you'll only encounter exclusive, retained search in the faith-based space. In marketplace you'll encounter lots of contingency search, which is where you have multiple organisations throwing the darts, the dartboard, you know, in the healthcare industry or the accountancy industry or building, whereas in faith sector it requires so much deeper work, in a sense because of theological alignment alignment with the mission calling, which is that whole spiritual piece that comes with it that we love so much about the work we do. There's so many components to faith-based search or faith focused search that isn't there in marketplace, which is why you actually partner with one organization to go the journey with you and what we see when that goes well and when they're open to that partnership, is that partnership continues, it becomes a trusted partnership and you end up really journeying with an organization and there's nothing better, right, brooke? Yeah.
Justin:I was curious what you guys thought about the transition to people hiring teams like fractionally versus doing a full-time hire through you. So it's like again and this is like, don't hold back any punches for our sake of being a fractional team that people can hire for marketing. But what like? What do you guys say? What are the differences between somebody who should hire like shouldn't spend the money? You know, oftentimes, budget wise, you might be looking at hiring a, an agency, for the same prices, bringing on a staff, or at least that's what the salaries look like. You don't think about all the management expenses and everything else it goes, training and all that. But how do you guys decipher that? And what do you see the good, the bad of those fractional services for teams that are growing, for organizations that are growing? Brooke, as you're looking, you know, obviously I think if someone's asking you to help find somebody, you're not going to turn that down and be like, no, you should just hire a fractional service.
Brooke Hodenfiled:It's. It's interesting because I think that the ways that we can fill a void are numerous now. I mean there's outsourcing, there's internal, there's fractional, there's full-time, there's taking a role and splitting it into two part-time roles and you get two people and the creativity and the ways that you can approach that I think should be explored, because it's never a one size fits all, you know, kind of scenario. So I think it goes back to asking the question, like what Tim was saying earlier who are we and what are we trying to accomplish here? What's, what's our goal in this hire? Is it bringing outside perspective and really hoping to deepen our culture? Is it a we're missing?
Brooke Hodenfiled:We have a skill gap that is completely void and we need an actual, really specific skill set. Is it we're missing? We have a skill gap that is completely void and we need an actual, really specific skill set. Is it a generalist, in a way that we're looking for, you know, someone to lead and oversee a team? So I think it goes back to kind of building blocks where what do you need and then what are the options that you have budget-wise, even oversight, like do you have the right kind of leaders in place that are going to be able to manage a contracted kind of relationship like that? What's the terms? What's the length? Do you need an actual person?
Brooke Hodenfiled:Because there's toxic or health related issues and bringing an outsider into the mix is not going to serve that purpose. Well, I think there's a lot of other questions that need to be asked. Yeah, sometimes it's simply budgetary. I mean, we have organizations that are looking for a unicorn with spots that twirls and they'll want to pay $3 an hour for that individual and we'll be honest, we understand what the needs are, but you're not going to be able to attract that level of talent and, in good faith, we can't find someone that is going to be willing to entertain that kind of compensation structure. So we understand the financial limitations are real. We get that.
Brooke Hodenfiled:We are sorry and grieve. Our hearts are heavy for that, but you've got to be at a place where you can afford to attract and retain a talent and to do that. It may look like a fractional, because that's simply what your budget allows for a season and that's okay. There's not a good or bad, I think, in that. It's just exploring all your options.
Justin:Where have you seen like a fractional beat work good for people and where have you seen it work bad, like? What do you think are like the bad outcomes with it? But also what have you seen good?
Tim Foot:comes with it. But also, what are you seeing good? While Brooke's thinking about that, I would also add that you need to manage that fractional employment really, really well, otherwise you're just throwing away money. I mean, in a sense, hiring Swingshot just like hiring you guys is a fractional option too. We have organizations that have an HR department that realize when it's appropriate to come to us, and we know what the specific roles are, our specialty and we will be very honest about it, and so, likewise, you might have a marketing department in a ministry or organization, marketing department in a ministry or organization and you have somebody there that is actually managing the outsourcing of certain services. So I would say that's where we see it work.
Tim Foot:Best is when there is somebody who knows how to appropriately manage fractional employment and knows when it's appropriate to reach out for that fractional work. But, as Brooke said too, it might be a much smaller organization that isn't ready to hire the role yet. And how do you know? You're not ready, we'll tell you. And also you'll have a salary range that limits the kind of candidate that you're able to get, and if you have a lower salary range in this environment can't get the right candidate, it's not going to be a healthy hire and we'll say to you what you should do is go to a group like Verse, who are going to help you, and they will help you scale with what they provide and then you're going to be ready to go for that full-time employee that's going to be a valued member of your team that you can do life with, that can live out the vision and mission.
Justin:Yeah, I do love that, Tim, because I've seen that over and over again. When there's not somebody who can manage the outsourced fractional team member, well, it's very hard for the fractional person to bring the most amount of value because they're not getting the right information If they're not being managed, they're not able to focus on the right priorities because they're not getting access to the decision makers or the priorities of the organization. And when you have somebody good, we see that success always elevates the manager that's on site. And so we say over and over again when we're talking to a new client if you have somebody on site who is teachable, is willing to work and isn't threatened by us being there, it works really, really well for us. And I could totally see that being the case with you guys in any HR department.
Justin:that isn't threatened by your expertise, whether it's doing coaching or staffing.
Brooke Hodenfiled:Going back to your question earlier, I think where the kind of roles that I've seen, where fractionals worked out well is in the finance and accounting space out well is in the finance and accounting space, where I would say it's there is a function gap and so someone needs to come in with a very specialized expertise and is given, to your point, all the information they need and they're set up for success.
Brooke Hodenfiled:There's clarity in their role, there's a timeline associated, there's oversight. That's where I see it working really well. Or also you can think of in the church space like an intentional interim If there is someone that's needed to get the organization to a point of health before you can bring in the next leader. That may be a C-suite level role. It may be someone that's at the helm, that is able to step in in a way to shepherd or steward whatever healing needs to happen before the next leader comes. I've also seen that work really well. Again with the timeline, very clear goals and specifics as to how that person is going to engage and that person is set up where those that are advocating for this person to come in they're going to be received well received.
Brooke Hodenfiled:And if not, then that's going to be an uphill battle for that person that's coming in to steward that season. But those are just the two scenarios I thought of when you asked that question.
Justin:I love the intentional interim.
Justin:That is not an option that enough people think through, because oftentimes things are such a mess that the next, the predecessor, has so much cleanup work to do and they have to do it so slowly if they're in it for the long haul.
Justin:But if you're intentionally like an interim, you can just go in and take all the hits. You could be thrown under the bus because you know I'm supposed to be here for a year. It's probably going to be a messy year, and then I'm going to clean it up and leave this organization healthy enough for someone long-term to stay here, and it's such a good strategic move. I think more organizations, if they had access to you guys where they knew they could bring somebody in that was willing to get run over like that or help clean up the mess. And I'm sure you guys have a lot of other strategies for when that's the right time, when that's the right thing to do, and I'm sure you guys have a lot of other strategies for when that's the right thing to do. But I've seen that work so many times that I love that.
Tim Foot:Yeah, we will absolutely advise if an intentional interim is needed, and we have partners too, that we can also recommend to come in and serve that purpose. That's what you'll learn about partnering with Slingshot, which is why it's always worth having a conversation with us. We're going to tell you the truth. The last thing we want to do is embark on a search journey when it's not the right time.
Heredes:Tell us this. We're going a little over time. So thank you for your time. We'll wrap it up here. So we're having a good time. I know we're having a good time.
Tim Foot:We're having a great time.
Heredes:We are Okay. A few more minutes here. Two things. And where has it been with reaching organizations nationwide? Where are the challenges? Where are the gaps? Where are the areas, and geographically speaking, that are difficult? Does the data show somewhere?
Tim Foot:Actually I think, brooke, it would be a good thing to talk here because there's an obvious answer to your question, eridis. Like where cost of living is high, it's difficult, it's really difficult. Also, you know, when there's not mountains or coastline, it can sometimes be a challenge as well, because people are very particular about where they want to be and likewise where they want to be, and likewise people might want to be near the coastline or near the mountains. If their family is living in Iowa, they want to be in Iowa. You know what I mean, and so you need to work out, okay, how can we make provisions for them to visit their family three times a year, to get really, really creative about salary package. But I think now is a really good time to talk, brooke, about remote and how that's become such a huge issue in nonprofit world.
Brooke Hodenfiled:Yeah, that's yeah. My mind first went to what you just said cost of living and then I would say a close competitor to that, to geography is how you do work. That is the most asked, the most needed to be clarified in terms of candidate conversations, because people will forego salary, they will forego a lot of things, if how the organization works fits their lifestyle, and I've I've been kind of using this verbiage of work-life integration versus balance, because everything is so connected and interwoven anymore and our lives are so entangled. So to find something that integrates into who you are, what you care about, in a way that allows you to do the work you feel like you're called to do in a way that also serves all aspects of your life, that is what people are seeking right now.
Brooke Hodenfiled:So remote opportunities could be that it could be the case. It could be a hybrid situation with a high degree of flexibility. Rigidity is also something that people are turned off by. If you're an eight to five, you can come in at 830 and do 830 to 430. People's noses are in the air about that kind of dynamic too, because they want flexibility and they want to be able to ensure that their work serves the other aspects of their life and it's a competition, the challenges for people that are trying to attract talent, because oftentimes, if you're not in a situation where you can offer flexibility or come up with creative solutions, you're up against a remote and a remote seeking talent workforce.
Tim Foot:In saying that we will take on five days a week in the office in the Bay Area. I mean we'll take on those searches we just realized oh, okay, oh, we have all of them. Yeah, there's going to be an extra level of complexity and challenge and we're going to tell you what that's going to be straight up. But we'll also learn from you, as we get to know you, what the compelling story is about, why you want that person in the office five days a week in the Bay Area.
Brooke Hodenfiled:Or if you're a rescue mission and you're doing work at the rescue mission, it doesn't make sense for your director of programs to be halfway across the country. Like there's certain things that it makes sense, and so that's part of it, too is helping us understand why you've chosen this framework for how you do work, and oftentimes it makes a lot of sense. It's just so that we can translate that well and find the right person that's drawn to that kind of work too.
Justin:That's really good. I love it yeah.
Heredes:No, that answers. The last one was just with the data and access you guys have around the country hundreds of organizations, ministries, tech. How is the craze of AI? And we've talked about this. It feels like it's buzz worthy, but buzz. You know tech and in the workplace we talked about remote or that's that plays a role what are you guys seeing? What are trends, what are things to to advise our listeners or warn our listeners on?
Tim Foot:AI is the buzz. You want to be asking us about how we're using it in the search process, but you also want to ask how personalized that process is, because that's why you're calling us. I mean, there's going to be people that think they can do search now on their own because of AI, and there's so much beyond what that can provide. It's a list of names. Again, we're not about just throwing the darts at the dart ball or spitballing the ceiling. We're about putting the right stones in the slingshot, and that means AI can. Yeah, I heard somebody describe AI as a great intern. So the intern goes away and does the work, brings the work back, you finesse the work. It's going back to what Brooke said about art versus science. There's science, lots of science. Science is attempting to take over the universe right now. We need to balance it with art, and art comes from real thinking, feeling, interacting, relational people.
Brooke Hodenfiled:And I'll just piggyback on. It's been interesting too just seeing some of the applications, cover letters come through, even a response, to share a little bit about what work and faith looks like for you. We can tell the AI response. I mean, it does not replace the human and the authenticity. We can sniff it out, I mean, and it's becoming increasingly more common where we see that, and so it just won't replace it. I think you can use it and wield its powers for good, and you should.
Brooke Hodenfiled:If you turn away and put your nose in the air up against it. I think that also is not good, because there are some great assets that you can have and glean from it, but also it doesn't replace everything and it won't ever, I don't think.
Justin:Yeah, people can tell H. That's why I still allow the typos in my posts. Nobody is questioning if AI does my posts. Yes, that is a fact, you always are telling me that I need to fix the typos and stuff, but I think it makes me more human.
Heredes:All art, no science, over here.
Tim Foot:Whatever makes you feel better right?
Heredes:Yes, exactly.
Justin:It would feel cooler if I could say it like no ought the way, no ought.
Heredes:I didn't know what you were saying.
Justin:I've been holding off on it the whole time.
Heredes:I'm so sorry guys, seriously so much gold, so much science and ought here today thank you for being art, art and science.
Heredes:It sounds so much cooler when you use your guys seriously thank you for being great friends and partners over the years and much success to you guys. It's in the fruit and we've seen it and we commend you guys. But thanks for the wisdom you brought to our listeners today and we'll put all the links on all the sites you guys are easy to get a hold of. But what's the best way for a quick conversation to find out if it, like this, is the right path and this is what they should consider?
Brooke Hodenfiled:Yeah, Slingshotgrouporg is our website.
Heredes:All there.
Brooke Hodenfiled:Yeah, all there. And I would say to um find me on LinkedIn, um, and that Burkhaudna field. I love to connect with people through LinkedIn, so that would be another place to um as well.
Heredes:Love it. Yes, thank you guys so much.
Justin:Yeah, thanks for all that you guys are doing for nonprofits.
Brooke Hodenfiled:And you guys too. We love you. Yes, same Seriously.
Outro:Thanks again for listening to the Nonprofit Renaissance. We hope it ignites a renaissance in you and helps you go further and grow faster. Be sure to share, rate and subscribe, and if you'd like to recommend or be a guest on our show, send us an email at podcastatversecreativecom.