Ep 6 - How Design Can Bring Meaning To Our Lives - Emilie Jacob

Our surroundings can impact us on a deep level - our home, after all, is the space that we wake up to in the morning and that we return to each night. How can we make sure that these spaces lift us up and really enrich our lives?

My guest this episode is Emilie Jacob - the incredible woman who runs the boutique interior design studio Stella and the Stars. She’s known for her signature style: lots of colour and bold spaces.

My home is testament to my love of Emilie’s style and I’m definitely not the only one - her work is in demand all across the UAE. 

Emilie says: “Our home is the place I am going to spend every single day, so it should be a beautiful, cosy place that I enjoy getting back to at the end of each day.” 

We had a brilliant conversation about creativity and where it comes from, and how her chaotic childhood drives her longing to creating safe and beautiful spaces. It’s honest and full of Emilie’s gorgeous energy. Enjoy.

Follow me, and the Good Intentions podcast:

https://www.instagram.com/kellyharvarde/

Find the wonderful Stella and the Stars: 

https://www.instagram.com/stellaandthestars

Immerse yourself in some of the books we discussed: 

Lean In - Sheryl Sandberg

https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Women-Work-Will-Lead/dp/0385349947

How Social Media is Ruining Your Life - Katherine Ormerod

https://www.amazon.com/Social-Media-Ruining-Your-Life-ebook/dp/B07D2F92S3

Becoming - Michelle Obama

https://magrudy.com/book/becoming-9780241334140/

Transcript

spk_0:   0:02
welcome to good intentions, the podcast where we explore the world around us to find meaning and intention and what we do. I'm Kelly Harvard, and I'm on a mission to spread positive storeys that will inspire you to never more meaningful and connected life. Our surroundings can impact us on a deep level. Ah, home, after all, is the space that we wake up to in the morning and that we return to each night. How can we make sure that these spaces lift us up and really enrich our lives? My guest this episode is Emily Jacob, the incredible woman who runs the boutique interior design studio Stella and the Stars. She's known for her signature style lots of colour on bold spaces. My home is testament to my love of Emily style, and I'm definitely not the only one. Her workers in demand all across the U ES. Emily says Our home is the place that I'm going to spend every single day, so it should be a beautiful, cosy place that I enjoy getting back to. At the end of each day, we had a brilliant conversation about creativity on where it comes from and how her chaotic childhood drives. Her longing to create safe and beautiful spaces is honest and full of Emily's gorgeous energy. Enjoy. Emily, Thank you so much for having me here today. So excited to be sat here on your gorgeous home, which I think has changed a lot since the last time I came here. So much colour, which I absolutely love. And a few things that I think I actually copied directly from you. Were you always into this into style and your environment as a kid, I kind of imagine you having this, like, perfect bedroom that you were trying to starve yourself. Or were you getting taken toa antique shops and things by your parents? That where does this all come

spk_1:   1:34
from? Well, first of all, Kitty, thank you so much for having me on this podcast. I'm very honoured. I listen to the previous guests you had on the podcast, and I was, like, very honoured on a bit nervous to come out of them. So yeah, I think it's a really cool concept for broadcast. I think it's really

spk_0:   1:53
okay. Like nothing out there on DH.

spk_1:   1:56
Yeah, I'm very, very high. Kick out. Thank you. part of it. So first of all, thank you. And yes, I think my house is one of those places where if you don't come for a couple of months, you might just come back and realise that it's not the same place or things would be moved. And the colour of the walls have changed or rooms have been swept, though he's probably changed a bit. Could be about two or three times in

spk_0:   2:19
the back. Yeah. Yeah, I think

spk_1:   2:21
so. How do you not? Yes, I think it's a funny thing, isn't it? Creativity. And do you have it in? You do develop it. I think I've always had something. I think it was dormant for many years. I was a very academic child. I was always into scientific subjects.

spk_0:   2:42
You were a scientific journalist. At one point, eso

spk_1:   2:45
actually trained a son. Germany submitted medical journalist After school, I went to university to study biochemistry. This is fascinating. This's absolutely so funny because when I tell people they are completely flabbergasted that like what? They're gone. Imagine me, so I don't know why. I think it's just one of those things. You know back then, when you at school. You didn't really think about alternative careers or I don't know you. I just followed the path where I was good at certain subjects, and everything to me was the scientific subjects like signs and physics and biology and math. I was very good. I was a bit ahead, so I jumped a class when I was a primary school. So I was very young when I finished school and how you're supposed to know when you're 16 or 17. I applied university to the topics that on the best results in my back it away either GCC and and I just got accepted and I went to university to study biochemistry. Absolutely no clue. That's what this is. The thing I've been

spk_0:   3:48
thinking about this a lot recently. Now that I have a child myself, who's like six, so she's not quite, you know, making those choices yet, But it's still those sorts of conversations come up when we kind of put our Children on these paths off. What do you get out? How can you use what you're good at rather than what might fulfil you or make you know, happy as in, like skipping around but like, what? What will bring you the most contentment on? Did you see what I mean? Exactly? Just on an academic path in their little silos. And it's not really about what's going to come after that. It's and a strange thing when you're young, there's a lot of stuff that you don't even know is out there. You might

spk_1:   4:24
be good at something because those are the five or six different areas that you study in school. I mean, I see the curriculum that my daughter is doing is already 10 times more varied and eclectic Trivialised, and we used Teo music class. We used to do the flute and, you know, I mean, where they got banned at school. Andi is one of the guards, is doing the drums, and there's another one she requires. She's singing. It was just I don't think there was anything that I don't think there was a potential when you were 10 in our generation, when you could have just be excited about being a musician, trying doing your music Very true. I think there's more. It takes him so in terms of inspiration, and you know how it might. Charles that I had a very chaotic in traumatic childhood. So no, my parents, unfortunately, didn't take me to free markets and antique stores. I grew up with my grand parents, and thankfully, I was very lucky. My grandmother was literally the most incredible lady you can imagine. And she was actually a very tasteful woman. And she taught me a lot of that stuff. That was probably, though the person who introduced me to a world of you

spk_0:   5:35
know, of nice things on the house. I was also very interiors or close to tears fashion or

spk_1:   5:42
remember her with a little kitty bag. And oh, she sounds amazing. Yeah, we did. She had a little antique supply, actually. Yeah, so she would tell me that I had a little sense on DH. Full disclosure my own cortisol is into Your designer

spk_0:   5:57
said it's in the blood, so it was

spk_1:   5:59
definitely somewhere. However, a mix of, you know, having self confidence and impostor syndrome and everything that you can imagine that you experience when you have been neglected as a child is I just did. There was nothing in me that was just saying Oh, my God, I'm good at this. Or, you know, I've got partial for this, that it was just just following that power of being a good pupil gown with it on. Then finish my studies. But this definitely something dormant. There's also when your child, you have to create your kind of safe space. Yes, I was moved from place to place from grandparent's tube on calls anonymous and, you know, different places. And I was very lucky. You know, these wonderful people in my family who took me in. But I had to recreate every single time, reinvent this little heaven of space and, you know, this safe kind of. So you could go back Tonto back. Think so? I don't know. It came really relate. It took me years and years and years to just stop and actually see not what my during This is no my path. I can't be working in

spk_0:   7:07
the lab on DH. This is not possible. I can't see it for people who haven't known that part of you. Then when you talk about that, I can't imagine you in a lab at all. But you were right for a long time and is

spk_1:   7:19
having my daughter. There was the venue. Lightbulb moment. Yeah, because in the UK was very lucky. I was able to take 12 months off to be on maternity leave. And when you stop for that long and you stop running around and you stop going for 10 hours a day to a job that doesn't fulfil you, but you're good at. So you think that the path because you know that come down for running up

spk_0:   7:45
there on the wheel and your eyes away on

spk_1:   7:46
in. And it was a good company and they were very nice. You know, Justin, that Why rock the boat Where my Yeah, so I kind of like, fulfil a little bit of that creative bugged by, you know, doing my house and doing it that way. But when I stopped, I remember just thinking, Oh, my God, I can't go back to a corporate job. I call. This is just shattered. Every belief, every habit, everything there was kind of trials may a routine when you stop and you give

spk_0:   8:16
yourself that space. I mean, sometimes people that I've spoken to that has happened because either they were made redundant or a project finished or like you say, with women. It's often when you stop and have a child, for however long you get to stop for its that stopping that gives you the space. If you don't start talking, May

spk_1:   8:36
how do you stop the car? How do you stop the bus? Especially?

spk_0:   8:40
You've got a mortgage to pay and bills and school fees and all those especially living in a very expensive city, like to buy. And we will have to work as well to suddenly stop that Stop that car, like you say, is pretty tricky. That's the challenge, right?

spk_1:   8:53
So, yes, I had no choice. A combination of factors made it impossible for me to go back to my old job. To be fair, I mean, I was at that point I had moved to pee on. I was head of communications for this big media group, which was, you know, overwhelming, all encompassing in terms of life. You know, you would just get those emails on a Friday night saying this needs to be done, you know, and then you just work that weekend and you work in the evenings and it was just not compatible with that kind of new pace that I wanted to have ongoing. I'm very lucky. My husband was very supportive and we discussed it when I Okay, I'm I'm leaving. I Yeah, 100. My notice after eight years, and there was no regret, you know, there was no sour feeling or bitterness or it was just like, it's just another chapter. Say is, yeah, you're stage Italians. And and then I retrained regionally. The kind of on really the thing that got me my confidence back or gave me the confidence to start with is I did this kind of design master class with her and incredible into a designer that I adored into the UK, called Abby. Get home on my husband. Got me for my but I think it was my brother or Christmas or something. And then you would go for a couple of days

spk_0:   10:04
happened. Good gift. Yeah, you're listening. That's an amazing girl.

spk_1:   10:08
I think she still runs them. I mean, she got much bigger now, but at the time, you know, she was well known, but she had them gone kind of Stratus, very actually has now, and I think she still runs them and probably know in our house anymore but just let me go. Teo really have really have lunched on. It would just be like workshops in the morning and breaks. I mean, you should have seen it. It was the infancy of social media. But still, you should have seen us, Ally. Just going around the rooms with our mouths open. And I go, Oh, this is my absolute heaven. And she's basically the designer behind that trend of, like, super dark. Yeah. Moody. Yeah, really impactful areas, dark walls, dark grey. You know, she's the one who put foreign bull railings colour

spk_0:   10:53
on the map. Wow. You know, before that, you just never would have thought of it. No, Colin Reed. I know how

spk_1:   10:59
she really did kind of come up with that trend, and I left and I remember I left and I was Oh, my God. And I remember a lot of the stuff she said during the workshop, like, yes, you need the rule book. But the reason why you need to know the rules is to be able to break them interest and forget what people say. Forget if you don't like the Scandia Minn. Union East. Why? Why a deer to it. Why go for something that you think is the norm? Go with your gut and how God saw her instinct towards the complete opposite. And this's what hey was a revelation. And I remember leaving those two days, like, maybe I've, you know, and I was showing photos of what I did with my house. And, you know, there was another bunch of, like, lovely people attending as well. We're on the same page. Yeah, and they were like, Oh, my God, that's really cool. So you're

spk_0:   11:46
started getting a bit of a blinking back and you're starting to feel like it could be something I loved what you said. You said that it felt like waking up from a very long snooze. And suddenly everything started making sense again. Yeah, such a lovely way to put it here. And I think I mean, I was lucky. As I said,

spk_1:   12:01
I took a break much, indeed. But I think eyes very hard to be able to do that. If you're constantly running, you know that the rat race. I mean, you know, back in London, it was it

spk_0:   12:13
was because I am, you know, I had an hour and 1/2

spk_1:   12:16
of commuting on how on the train and it's cold and rainy and, you know, door London. But when you do long hours in a job that you know particularly crazy about when you're having doubts is very, very hard to just stop, stop and think So that was the kind of catapult that started it all. And then I decided to go for it. So I had this idea off. The name had to be around stellar. I had the idea of what the concept was gonna be. I've been running it for, you know, almost six years. And a lot of people just like Holly. But you've done so well. I know. Anyway, I'm always been kind of

spk_0:   12:57
way. Deprecate s always on my mind, but

spk_1:   13:02
I think a lot of the time people who don't make it is just because they think about themselves, anything about what they want to do, what they wanted and never. And I remember all these early days I never said like, I want to do it that way. I want to do this because I want express myself. It was never that that when I launched a blawg stead under stars. Originally, it was to help other people because I felt I had this kind of tastes and quirky and crazy and eclectic and colourful. But I didn't have you know, 100 thousands of pounds or dirhams to execute it. Yeah. So what does that left you with? You know, you like these little frustrated soul that just ends up in, like with, you know, White and Grey House? Yeah, Or do find clever ways of doing it. And I was finding all these cutaways, and I started getting this little black book of, you know, cool supplies and stuff. Wait, I cannot be the only one. I can't be the only one who wants to have a Jonathan Adler house, but has Zara Home budget. I cannot be the only one. So there are all these people doing, then they're just frustrated constantly this seeing, you know, all these cool stuff that they can't afford. So it started like that. It started from that kind of bridging that gap in between the high end again. When you talk about this now is it's a bit relevant because we've got each home and we've got this, but I know when I started doing the house it was 10 years ago when the UK made dot com was just launching. Yeah, I don't think Agent home existed. That's very recent. It was The high Street didn't have cool

spk_0:   14:32
furniture, There was bitter and even habitat was a bit pricey.

spk_1:   14:35
Still, you know, it was held investment pieces. You didn't have like supermarkets during them. No, nothing she didn't

spk_0:   14:42
have. Sainsbury's is doing great stuff now. Believe Instagram

spk_1:   14:44
was barely there. It was a time where it was either. As you said, a common shove the designer stuff a little bit of the high street. Like they say, Can I beat up? And then there was not much left for the rest, of course, but off course.

spk_0:   14:59
And we're all like here. But then that like you're right. Choice just wasn't there. How is

spk_1:   15:03
always starting? It was starting. It was just on. Instagram was just starting people, I imagine. Right. Well, they started putting pictures of the house and on the Internet. What

spk_0:   15:14
are you doing it so much part of our psyche now, Tio having stew ground, we can't you know, when you try to explain to me Oh, didn't we? Didn't used to have it has been around forever like No, Can you imagine is very strained

spk_1:   15:26
back when I started. I mean, when I started having a few 100 followers because I I had this quirky kind of style. It was like I'd be a bit over the budget on I remember, like getting hot. 1000 followers and people contacting me and Barratt brands contract you because at that time, you know that put you on the map. You know this? Yeah. So it was really the beginning. So do you How much you mentioned you,

spk_0:   15:49
Marines off communications and PR. How much do you think that helped when it came Teo promoting yourself and setting it up? Did that helped to shape your thinking? I

spk_1:   15:59
helped with the content because I started the business originally as an instagram feed with tips, top tips on how to decorate your house on the budget with bold colours. Then the blood came and in dealing with clients on projects. So all these skills that honed over the years definitely helped by writing your right as a log on DH. After years of being first race, writing about drugs coming on the markets Chess, GPS and nurses. It was a nice so crushing right in your own tone. You know, write. I write like I talk. You don't write. Nothing is formal about it was that it was the complete opposite of my career writing for formal publications. I mean, we had a vlog on one of the publication. You could no go. It was for doctors and nurses and specialists. You just could you could do the odd bit of humour here

spk_0:   16:58
and there. But it's not like real ISMs. And, you know, which is one of the things I always remember. Remember reading your blood when you first moved here? Because that's how I found out about you. And I love the fact that it was so like having a chat with you. Yeah, and so relatable. And

spk_1:   17:11
I think that's what these things should be. You know, who am I to write an essay on into a design? You know, it used to be a kind of conversation to inspire people, not to give them. You know, if someone wants to know a bit more, they condition, of course, and they couldn't do something this is about inspiring people with your personal kind of anecdotes rather than just educate, you know,

spk_0:   17:34
I don't know. Definitely want you on education. You're going Bye bye, book. I better Or someone who's got 20 years experience

spk_1:   17:40
in industry and what it's all about. Everything I started was about my personal experience, and it started out that at the time again, the bloc's when it was slight. 10 of us in London, blogging about into you

spk_0:   17:52
know how many are there now? There must be hundreds. Yeah, hundreds

spk_1:   17:55
on as show it. It should be. You know, everything in the world. Just, you know, every industry evolves and more people do it, and that's fine. But I had a time, you know, It was a little pocket. Well,

spk_0:   18:06
nice to meet you in the beginning there as well. And they have that perspective and be able to look back and

spk_1:   18:10
yeah, is very interesting. Very interesting. I'm really glad because I don't think I would have what it takes to be able to start now. Really? Why's that house? I think it just must be much harder. I mean, it's you know, the market is much more saturated areas more competition is, I think, the inputs off information and it's so well, Well, it's so overwhelming. When I was looking to retrain, you know, I ended up going to Kelsey, which is one of the best designs causing London, and I loved it. I mean, you had you had two or three choices. Now, if you're looking for course, you didn't design may. You could spend 23 weeks just research choosing which one to do, which has got a accreditation. Or I feel like I was in the time where things were easier to choose because it was just not that overwhelmed. Off information and choice. If you're already looking 15 2030 people doing the same, it completely paralysed. Wade. I was bringing something in an under saturated market where there was not a lot out there when I was coming to something a bit different. So it was a little bit easier. Easier to

spk_0:   19:18
find your voice. Yeah, more off. That was I

spk_1:   19:21
think now would be incapable of parting. I would be paralysed with just comparison syndrome. Impostor syndrome. You name me a listen, Grooms. Yeah, I think really hard now.

spk_0:   19:34
Interesting. Yeah, I hear you on that. So we mentioned your lovely block, which is one of the things I first loved about you. One of the blood post that I love the most that I still share with people. A lot of people here in Dubai rent we don't buy because of the nature of the markets on DH, we kind of place a lot of limitations on what we can and can't do. So I think I lived here for two, maybe three years before I even put a picture. I remember having that conversation with you. So I was just like, you know, I'm not going to stay. I'm not going to stay. I'm renting. I want to take all the pictures down. I'll have to fill in the holes. And you said, You know, this is the place I'm going to spend every single day. So it should be a beautiful, cosy place that makes me feel happy to hang around and that I enjoy getting back to at the end of the day. And that just gave me such a different perspective. So ah, lot for your client's obviously renting us. Well, you have to obviously persuade them of this on DSO Make them understand that even though it's impermanent, it can be permanent. And the value of making it somewhere that you want to come back to you is so important. So tell us a bit more about your thinking behind. That s

spk_1:   20:30
so it's exactly what you said. I mean, it's just probably the most used sentence we get during the kind of introduction meeting that we go with lines. But I rent. I don't want to spend too much money. This is not my house. This is not my space. I don't own it on it is just changing that mindset. I mean, we speak to people who've been renting for 10 years. You know, we've got clients who've got bin in Dubai for a decade. If you keep that mindset for decades, I mean, you could just be like depressed because 10 years, a long time, yeah, and even two years or three years, you know, there's a lot of people. I'm one of them. We came here thinking will stay 18 months a couple of years and then go back on. We have been here for almost four, and I just think in that time if I had know invested, not selling money, but invested energy in time making this space as comfortable on DH, reflecting my personality and somewhere that I feel happy in. I just so so depressing. But the other thing is, the people who contact us are usually already at that stage. So they've already gone through that. Okay, Yeah, on. They want to change where they've been in the house for a year, 18 months. And they think, OK, we don't only we don't know how long we're going to stay. Let's know, invest too much in it will get the basics. Little so far blah, blah, blah. Couple of crate and barrel chairs and off we go on would be fine. And the paint is not taste and the lighting all full. But it's fun. We can live it with it, and after a year, they just hated and is something frustrating. If you're sensitive to your environment, which people are, Of course we are. We all Aren't we all like little creatures of senses and we've got, you know, perceptions and everything in it your whole environment affect how you

spk_0:   22:21
feel. Of course it doesn't even if you're not necessarily into interiors person. It

spk_1:   22:25
doesn't have to be about buying the quirkiest singing summer, making your space somewhere that you're happy in,

spk_0:   22:33
so their surroundings, they're so important to us. And I remember after reading your block post, it genuinely spurred me on. So I went to see Joe. Tonight, I picked some paint colour, and I got the New York breakdown on one wall, and I painted the bedrooms and the hallways and no word of a lie. I sat and looked at that brick fall for, like, many evenings, and I'm gonna still look at it now. Obviously, it's in my house I see every day, and it brings me so much

spk_1:   22:53
joy, just a bit of paint on the wall. But

spk_0:   22:55
it changed my whole mind. Set up how I feel about the house, and it's somewhere that I really want to come home, too. I really like feel that feeling of wanting to get home, and when I walked through the door, I'm so happy to be there and whether your into interiors or not, that's a feeling that you feel when you walk into the house. So it is really important our surroundings are important to us

spk_1:   23:13
is extremely important. I think people don't put enough emphasis on and just think, you know, for years into design has been the kind of like, you know, it's slightly silly uncle of the design world, you know, it was the kind of and it's changed so much, you know? Now there's a lot of research John around, you know, well being and health and how the spaces were in affect us on DH. It's any snow. So you talk. It can be a smaller detailers, changing the walls anything. But it's also not just the aesthetic but ISS, the design itself of rooms, you know, making a space for you using it. So when we weren't reclines, Yes, we asked him. So we sent him a massive question. And we have, you know, about 45 minutes interaction with them, and we spend a lot of new early stages of the design trying to decipher what their idea for the room is and is not just their taste and their colour they like or they don't like it. The stores are like shopping in it, but it's who's using the room. How are you using it Are the Children, not Children? The adults? Is it someone you want to feel comfortable with? Somewhere you want to feel sophisticated here somewhere That's showing, you know you want to show off when you have dinner parties. How is this base used? And another people forget malice. So well, all is by this is but no, no, no, no. We need to sit down and we need to nail down. What is this room gonna be? Is this room gonna be when you spend the evening reading and you want, like, a comfortable speaking?

spk_0:   24:42
There's a work space where you want to feel energised focused and

spk_1:   24:46
you're gonna just be watching TV here. Are you gonna have your kids? You want your kids to interact with you? Do you wanna have a no kids, dear, every room is just indulge on the corners and you know all these things the flow, the how the layout is gonna be thought. And it's a lot of important things that people would How would you know? You don't have it is not your specialty or something that you've looked into. You wouldn't know. So I think there's that kind of slightly superficial aspect of into design. I was like, Oh, she's someone just shopping, buying things and Colin stuff But there's a lot of thought there goes into creating space. Is there work in terms of layout design functionality? Because, for example, we see so many kinds have got these rooms and they've not been designed properly. So what happens is they don't use them, of course, yeah, or they feel uncomfortable in them. Can imagine coming back to your partner and just can't be bothered. I just don't want to hang out in this room. It makes me uncomfortable. Awful. I want to come back to your space and I can't wait to be sitting on my sofa, my legs up on my look proof and just have that perfect angle. I can just read a book or watch TV or, you know, see what the kids

spk_0:   26:01
don't I wanted. Today. I want my heart to beat faster when I get close to the house, which is exactly what happens and yeah, I can't imagine not feeling like that. Obviously, a lot of people won't feel like that for a variety of different reasons, and because

spk_1:   26:13
then I think There's a preconception misconception, preconception that that has to cost a lot of money up. And it doesn't sonny. I mean, it does more injured by because I think, you know, things are more expensive here, and it's harder to find quality products for affordable price. But it's still a kid can still be done on we. You know, our USP is creating high impact design on the smaller by jet, so that's what we do every single day. We create lovely rooms that are practical, functional, that look good with a little bit of low quality product. But, you know, decent quality products. There will be no last that you're not gonna throw when you move back, and they could be done on them on a small budget. And we very clever are deciding where the budget should go if you feel like it's a transient period of your life. So, for example, if you know that you know some Kandahar us and they know they're gonna leave in a year, 18 months. So what's Okay? Well, instead of spending money on very expensive paint, expensive custom made cupboards will spend it on a beautiful rug. There you can take with you with you lighting lamps, smaller pieces, an armchair Buy a cheaper sofa, but a beautiful velvet launcher to go with it. So, you know, there are clever ways of investing in the pieces. There will be able to travel with you on interest showing container. I'm going back to Europe or wherever you

spk_0:   27:43
go in there going. No, I love that. So we're supposed to, you know, value people over things, and we're all becoming more mindful of, sort of where we spend our money and sort of consumerism. So how can we avoid going sort of a bit to extreme with all the things that we put in our home and just like, I mean, you kind of touched on this, but how can we not just go for all the iconic, expensive pieces that were just gonna throw money at that aren't really going to do anything for us. So

spk_1:   28:08
I think Yeah, the impulsive kind of buying thing is something that you can do when you do the process on your own indefinitely. And I'm used to be guilty of that a lot. I'm a trinket junkie as you Khun DAO at the same time or these little trinkets and the objects have a little storey behind them. Then exactly where within comes from,

spk_0:   28:28
they have meaning. Two year I'll have you know I am, because it could be when I'm

spk_1:   28:31
travelling or, you know, gifts or things that people have. You know, give me. I was presence and it's Yeah, I mean, it has to be a fine line. We have designed a lot of what I would call me Nanny Spaces. We're not just doing maximalist, but that doesn't mean that it can't be bold, adventurous and colourful. We have done spaces where we saw 10 products for a whole room. But that doesn't mean that he has to be bland and Beijing gration or something that makes something tio how, without buying a lot of different products and accessories, it could be a big, beautiful piece of art that will follow you through the years. You could be a really comfortable dining table like, you know, that you probably see as a Helen piece that you will give to your Children if you have any. United is that there's a lot of ways of not focusing on this matter. It is um, and buying, buying, buying, but still make a space amazing. That means something to you here means something to your reflection off you. I mean, I'm a bad example because a lot of what I do is, you know, just recovering from a childhood of sadness and things. So I think for me it's a way of making up for everything because it's just my little space of happiness in all my little trinkets and stuff. But if you're a bit more reasonable port, I would say that me and your taste. Then, you know, we just focus on Klein's want to focus on more expensive, timeless pieces, and they'll buy less and buy more quality on we, and we can find that as well is not a problem. It's not because we focus on affordable designer. We don't want to spend on beautiful pieces, but we also inject a bit of fun in it. And that doesn't mean by Maurin lasts exactly with the scheme differently. Yeah, so I think they can go hand in hand. I don't think this needs to be necessarily contradiction between, you know, focusing on the people we love because I think enjoying time and you during your time with people on DH that relationships and you know more fulfilling things in life is still this is still happening in a physical environment. Yeah, there's not much to them. Even if you want to focus your family and your Children, you want to spend money on them rather than on things. This process still happens in your environment, so it needs to go hand in hand. But we're flexible. We like doing both. We like clients who want a gallery wall with 25 prints on it, with five different colour schemes. And we like lines who want to tone it down a bit on focus on, you know, a handful of pieces. I think there's definitely a shift in the industry in terms of buying, buying, buying. But

spk_0:   31:11
I love your point of view. Of course, family's important. And, of course, love and Connexion is important. But I love your point of it's still happening. It's not happening in a vacuum slamming it, so there's no it's not that one has to take from the other. It's that they can come together and actually maybe make it a more valuable experience anyway. as they come together Exactly. I

spk_1:   31:29
think that the main differences in where we live in devise that the original style of the properties way exposed to is different. She the one that we usually used to at home. Being from North America, Europe or you know, is different Start. And I think it is changing years. A lot of Nubia properties. But the old out where we leave, for example, you know Inger Maren and secure the house usually old dated, and it's really hard to adapt these without changing a little bit of the boat.

spk_0:   32:01
There's a lot of avocado bathroom suite style in this whole herd. Yeah, no, your walls. And you know, why was everyone

spk_1:   32:07
traditional looking kind of Sean delays? And I'm being very kind g O that you've seen Trio, but yeah, I think you're standard Vidar to rent in. Certain areas of Dubai are coming by default as very depressing spaces on this is no fence judo, that coral emeralds. But I think you know the market's defend and there's much less effort being put into these properties to market them. It's kind of live. People change mind, you know, it's slowing down so I think that they have to make more effort. But remember, we're looking for years ago. I mean, they would know the house would not even been cleaned before you could view it on. I'm thinking off the effort and the money we had to spend in our property in London to be able to make it ready. Toc 40 years, yeah, side of you before it's beauty before he could be even rented. So there's definitely that element of it's really rare to be able to get a default property that would somehow did the bill in terms of okay, it's not my place, but it's basic and it's neutral

spk_0:   33:12
and I could put my stamp on it. That's the problem here.

spk_1:   33:14
Yeah, you already started with something that's so far away from your kind of neutral basic package there. It's very hard to to leave in those spaces without altering them

spk_0:   33:25
without doing something. No, I agree. So you've been open about dealing with some anxiety, and you've mentioned impostor syndrome a couple of times when you have been talking, I just

spk_1:   33:35
stopped 20 tio go to these workshops and courses to just stop, and I am in hashtag I

spk_0:   33:41
am enough. I blessed. I think it's good that you are open about it. And that way we are now seeing the shift where we are more open about challenges that we face is human beings. I'm interested in the way that you said your spaces impacted on it positively. So you've taken something that has been a challenge for you. But then the space around you has helped. How how has it helped? How have you managed to do that?

spk_1:   34:05
I think I definitely have grown up in terms of my confidence and the where portrait myself on as you said, it's self deprecating, is always there was sick.

spk_0:   34:15
I'm Mickey out of my marriage to a break. You pretty much British now arrived. I've actually lived outside of France more than that's part of It. Has to be something a

spk_1:   34:26
little bit of a French route, almost. And I Yeah, I think after my life has been turned in the UK so I definitely have that. Your British thing? I never developed the British stiff upper lip. I've always taught very crazy Good know. So I spent half of my life in the UK so I consider myself almost British. But when we arrived here, everything kind of mixed up a little bit in my brain, I think. And again, just from a a very practical perspective. But the space is complete different here, you know, you're moving from a poky little town house in east London to southern the

spk_0:   35:06
three storey is where you're going or three storeys

spk_1:   35:08
up and down. It is tiny door staircases. And at the time we felt, you know, the house was massive compared to what's on the market and what people have you know. And we just suddenly we just had access to these, like 3000 square feet blank white space with no ray data and no Victorian window creaks when you open them. And it's so that was a shift. And I think mentally I kind of wanted Teo adapt to this new Stalin and creating new stoner. And when I robbed I I set up the house in a completely different way. I styled it very minimalistic. You get one e Do you remember

spk_0:   35:46
when you have nothing on the walls? Do you remember what you had? White walls and

spk_1:   35:49
walls were white. There was No, no, A lot of colour. There was a few pops of colour, but very, very angel. I bought a load of monochrome accessories. I don't know what possessed me. I just thought this is a different place. This is like a beach house, and I'm gonna make it, you know, interests worthy and kind of like, minimally Eastern thing. And I think interested me if you want to marry us. Oh, my God. This place is not making me happy. This is not the way. And I started going back to my you know, my roots, your truth and your authentic self. And you, really you really well shifted something in and I feel much more comfortable is very hard to find your style. You know, a lot of our clients really struggle because exposed to so many things

spk_0:   36:34
isn't my style. Is it something we are such? Well,

spk_1:   36:37
these other people's houses and you see something on pictures and it is you know, you're forgets. Heavily edited is beautifully lit. It's perfectly style in hours and hours and hours, you know? I know exactly what it takes to start a house for a shoot. It takes hours. You see on images, magazines, stuff is nor the reality trying to emulate that and copy. That is very hard because it doesn't necessarily translate into a happy space. And a lot of people get influenced by trans and things, and they want O. You know different things and get lost in terms of warfare. That true start is, and that's really difficult. And that's one of the things that were discussing on judicial process is we bombard them with the inspiration images, and we tell them to pick, you know, the ones that just catch their eyes without thinking too much. And then you starting school. That's interesting. Emerge on trusting. So although they're like Oh, yeah, I love great and stuff. Actually, when you show them pictures, they pick the blush pink orange thing with.

spk_0:   37:34
Yes, I'm actually thinking different. I think I like Ray, but I really don't like Grey. I've tried it may have to pay over. So

spk_1:   37:41
no liking Grey and putting that out there interesting. It's very hard because this is super trendy colours. I should I should. I say he should die for this candy's theme because that's what you know

spk_0:   37:55
is E always reliable. Remember saying to you, I really want to paint my hallway yellow, but like yellow is just not a colour that it is like an accent colour. What

spk_1:   38:02
are you saying to me? Just paying you Hold my yellow if you want to paint it. So I did.

spk_0:   38:06
And I love my yellow hallway. It's not. It's not popping up in any trend, no time soon, but I love it, although it's my whole back in fashion. But yellow is definitely back. Oh yeah, this is great news. Yeah, great news. Yeah,

spk_1:   38:19
definitely. I think paint is another thing that is just so easy here. It's so easy to execute to change. It's such an easy process, you know, I

spk_0:   38:31
get someone to help you do it. It's

spk_1:   38:33
yeah, and I just always say, like touch wood, We've never had to do it. But when Clynes are not 100% sure that already, let's just go for it. Never that way. Think you're gonna regret it? We've made the scheme. It goes, you know, don't be nervous. Let's just go for it. And we've never had anyone just looking back and like, Oh no, I wish I hadn't done it. Never were always like I should have. Cool emitting. Listen, painters of really, really easy gig to change when you really you bought of it. It's not like, you know, I mean, it's not that difficult. You have to change in six months. But my mom just will be changed

spk_0:   39:09
so many times. It was peach at one point, which is the same colour that I'll have my bedroom done it.

spk_1:   39:13
Yeah. Which was this little kind of Yeah. Peachy pink, then file a Graham. I don't grey. We have till now. It was white.

spk_0:   39:24
I can remember when there was no colour. That's funny too. Then you

spk_1:   39:26
really made me realise that I'm usual board. I am in a white space.

spk_0:   39:29
And how much you miss? Terrible.

spk_1:   39:30
Because I want to love it. You know, there's loads of things either in life that you love the concept off and you want to like it. And it doesn't want to work very hard. Hello For you. You

spk_0:   39:40
know, White Hallway was just not working. I needed something.

spk_1:   39:43
And you know what happens when your walls are white? You keep trying to onto them to make them finish. Look finish. And actually, when you paint your walls most of the time again, my house is not a good example is covered in artwork. But most of the time, people feel that kind of sense of light, the room being dressed, you know, it feels like that kind of finished look, Even if you just add a few pops of accessories on, that only happens when you start using colour on the walls. Interesting that you just don't feel that endless feeling of like, Oh, I should add this. I should add that she had another because it's already done ad. Yeah, because the real Ecologist dresses the room and just sets the final kind of feeding touched. You

spk_0:   40:22
know, I love colour, Theo. Totally. And preaching to the choir. I think Di

spk_1:   40:26
graced a little bit of your original question. Um, the anxiety. I mean, anxieties is a word that is a buzzword. You know, a lot of people used

spk_0:   40:36
to do How does it manifest for you if you don't mind talking about it? It's a physical thing. So this podcast is called good intentions. So from interior design to how you design your life, I know you that you've got a number of different tools and anchors. I maybe told me once about email that you sent yourself every month. Tell us a bit more about that is really interesting.

spk_1:   40:56
Been doubling. I'm really not an expert walls mind, but a really good friend of mine introduced me to the concept of manifesting, and he's been a revelation, and it's quite incredible how powerful Lincoln Bay. So as I said, I'm literally dabbling in and I'm you know, it's just a basic spur. I'm just doing one very, very simple thing is every kind of term. So it's every three months. I sit down and with a pen and a paper lovely else called Crazy on DH, I write down all the stuff that I would feel would fulfil me in every aspect of my life. So you showed to category. So it's a weird business personal life, Children relationship with my husband and then relationships with family and friends. And I just like, literally, like Grip warns of like, if this was the future, you know, is a regular clients, what will that Liz be? And what would those areas of my life looked like if It was like the perfect scenario on I just write it down. So let's say I'm accepting at work. We have five new clients who are amazing and one before to work with. It could be anything

spk_0:   42:10
more specific. Sounds as well is very specific. Stella. I settle

spk_1:   42:15
in a new school and she made Let's, um, new friend. She's loving here. Teddy is a wonderful baby. He's very chilled, you know, Everything in the present tense of like what you feel that is not completely happening or is not like that was very far can be very far away on what would make you feel fulfilled and happy at that particular moment. Then what you do with this list? I type. It's nicely another. On an email on, I sent an email to myself on I put the subject line to the date that wanted to open so usually kind of three months later. And then I read it and read it and really and try to visualise myself. You know, all these things happening believing them. I sent it to myself, and then I leave it. I put Dara reminder in my phone off, you know, a day or week to to open the amount and over uneven and every single time I've done this pullback, maybe a couple of years, 18 months, couple of years, and every time I'm not kidding. 90% of the stuff is happened during that time frame. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And it's incredibly satisfying to look at these lists as well. At the time, it feels unachievable. And you thought almost trying to money first. Whoever is not gonna happen, But I'll write it down just in case. Yeah, completely unachievable. Yeah, and he steals. That is, how can this happen in three months and something's gonna happen, and then you open it. Oh, done. Ages ago, nobody was stressed about that. So it's also not just to see what you achieve in sea days is achieved, but also that feeling of Oh, my God, I'm in such much better place now. I was stressing about this stuff and you forget If you don't write it down, you don't. You never remember how you fell four months before.

spk_0:   44:05
And it doesn't ever feel like you're writing goals for yourself that you might be totally okay, but in a good way. But

spk_1:   44:10
they're not goals as in like, I wouldn't write. I'm gonna win a $1,000,000 or I'm gonna win the lottery. Or I mean, you could, but I throw one in there if you get 90% also see fix yet. But you could. But then you would have to work on a path to achieve that goal. But it could be I'm going on 50,000 you know, that's the tube. Well, I'm going to do it that way, and then you're writing down in the president. What makes you be able to make that kind of money? If that, you know, money is, you'll go. So it has to be very, very specific items. They're oh, so simple, but not necessarily. Do you feel

spk_0:   44:48
so quarterly email to yourself? I really love that. Yeah,

spk_1:   44:51
it is really Nothing is so simple. Did you

spk_0:   44:53
ever popped back and have a look at it? Or you just like I always do. You? Yeah, Well, when I feel a bit low, I'm

spk_1:   44:58
looking like the old ones. And God, you lie. Wass. This is no bad. Yeah, I think there's also what is happy and what is fulfil. You know, the perimeters off achievement and happiness and fulfilment. They change all the time. I mean, I'm no, the stuff that makes me deeply, deeply happy and content now is know the stuff that I thought would do on, you know, 10 years ago?

spk_0:   45:27
Of course not. You have all three life. You become a different person. Priorities, training your life changes.

spk_1:   45:31
You shift those parameters as you go, and you have to be content with what they mean to you, rather than what do you think other people are gonna piece Eve, and that is very hard to reply. But I think it's really important, because

spk_0:   45:46
if you tell me 20 years ago that I'd be happy sitting in the garden watching too small chickens like us, he's gonna find out what? But that's that's where I

spk_1:   45:55
am. Yeah, exactly. And it's I never thought I would have Children on me neither. Not really. There wasn't even 1/3 1 I mean, who does that? Yeah. I always thought that career was the big thing for me. Well, with all that and that's why I think when I was on maternity, it was a bit kind of overwhelming. I was like this is not what I thought I would be your wife to be my eyes, that what it feels like. Oh my God, that's all for now. I want to be like that. That was the first shift and then the past couple of years. In the past year, in the past six months, even more is one. Things have shifted even more and the realising what's important knife and

spk_0:   46:36
and not sweating the small stuff. Yeah, he's What is the most important thing in your life to you at this moment

spk_1:   46:42
based family? Yeah, I'm really reached a place where I could just dump everything. Their business, the house, the life signs you by leaving a heart with those three people. That door I sounds cliche, but yeah, the kids. My husband is just Yeah, it is. It's something you take for granted because it just know you're happy. Map married and you've got lovely kids and stuff and you just go with the mundane things of the day and, yes, sometimes God each night, ticking off everything off the happiness list. So

spk_0:   47:15
my Connexion isn't it that you have, and it's whether it's family, whether its partner, whether it's friends. It's what it all boils down to. What I hear the most is that is that Connexion that we all want. And when you get that Connexion, it becomes more valuable to you.

spk_1:   47:27
It was a few years ago was definitely night the career and finding something that was happy doing. And there was more me and, you know, and not being loa work and depressed and feeling like I'm fulfilled. And it was coming from a different place. It's quite interesting.

spk_0:   47:44
Life evolves is interesting. I'm talking of that. You still seem to be eager to learn. Mohr. You were telling me about some course that you were doing last time I saw you. So, like Constance, this involvement seems important to you.

spk_1:   47:56
Yeah, I'm a big fan of, like, online courses and love signing up for these things. I did wealth and money manifesting calls last year that was recall with a lovely girl that I met when I started into design. Call Sara Crewson B and she run of the these online courses and I did one about manifesting money and stuff when we were trying Teo value our work a bit more on DH here increase off you little bit without feeling that we had to apologise to every person on the other two on DH. I love doing these, you know, just trying to be different. And I want to do something a bit different next year. I want to do something more spiritually, like a retreat toe. Come on. Yeah. I'ma Leverage. One together. Leverage. Do something Because I'm not good at meditating. And neither

spk_0:   48:48
am I. No, it's a lot of very, very hard by myself. You know, I'm a good student. I'm a good person. I had to. I had to go on a course. I had to have Helen Williams in mind for me. Sit me down and say 123456 That's what you do. I couldn't do on my Yeah, this is This is common. This is no. I love doing exercise a lot.

spk_1:   49:07
Doing platters class. Look, do yoga. I cannot have a map. I have everything I need at home. I've got quite house with my kids at school in the morning. I have, you know, a lot of space. I created an environment, Odo, and I'm happy with I cannot do it by myself. I can't just your yoga class for me, but I will go to yoga. Has an absolute love every single minute of it. But it's very hard for me too. You apply these things do when I'm then by myself. Also, I hate tea months. Do you know one of those people? No.

spk_0:   49:37
Right. In this economy, a childhood thing, a try, abandonment syndrome and of course, yeah.

spk_1:   49:42
I panic when I'm gonna hate it. I don't think I've ever been to the cinema but myself. It's only been a few years in something, this sense of being a mom that hinders go and have a coffee by myself. Yeah.

spk_0:   49:53
Yeah. Once you become a parent, your time is definitely Yeah, ee. Yeah,

spk_1:   49:58
but I would much rather go for coffee with someone and have a chap. Didn't be myself. My husband is the opposite. Unites his time. I hate it. I just I

spk_0:   50:06
goes a panic mode. How do you match unless that together? Than if you're

spk_1:   50:09
we compromise with each other up? Yeah. I hate to be mighty. Yeah, So I feel more happy and learning and full field when I'm doing things as part of a group of like minded people and, you know, and that includes when I want to learn something different. You skill. I'm not one of those people that just sit on my desk in, like, research for hours on my own and apply moment.

spk_0:   50:33
Yeah, I think that's hard, I think for dusty yoga mats by someone's

spk_1:   50:36
stimulated and yeah, in the presence of another human being

spk_0:   50:40
not alone. I'd love to ask you about books I was asked people about, but I thought you might, you know, any any

spk_1:   50:45
books you could recommend, Although you put out just put me to shame with your book thing because I'm just like what you read in a week is probably the amount of books I read in a year. I'm very dull life that I started to get into those audible. Yes. Yeah. Your boots are laudable thing, great friend. Our well being is being And I start Teo Michelle Obama becoming one. And I started another one of social media and

spk_0:   51:15
well, there are just so if you've got kids Yeah, they don't let you listen to what you wanted the car, right? So it's really no tough. I've read every book by Sarah night They're involved. The f word, Yeah, the calm down ageing magic of not giving a f. Yeah, the amount

spk_1:   51:34
you do you thie art of saying If no on that has really helped me because I love us. Songwriting is very reverent and is very easily digestible. And I feel like I'm reading, but I'm also kind of applying it to my day. You know,

spk_0:   51:53
they're very practical, those books and I think of women as well. Specifically. I mean, this is a generalisation, of course, but I think her books, some of her book spoke to me specifically is It will be because we are tend to be people pleases. I like to say Yes, I work in PR, for God's sakes. It's my job to make things here, and you never say no to somebody. So to read those kind of books and helped kind of reframe your brain a bit. I find them really practise as well,

spk_1:   52:14
and it's really rare. I really have to try two or three books and leave them. Page 52 really found that, James So I was very late to the party, but I read lean in shorts number. Oh my God! One of my all time favourite books. I met somebody

spk_0:   52:31
today that didn't like leaning way had a very long, interesting discussion about Yeah, it's one of my You never saw them again. They are dead today. Debt on DH Yeah, that

spk_1:   52:42
was That was a really good book that Michelle Obama becoming. It's such a big deal, but I cannot. Stupid Lisa Highball Teo. I purchase it on the audible thing, and it's just it's really hard to find the time to listen to it because a long protracted were actually, I'm less distracted if I read on paper. Also, there's a bit more lowbrow, although it's very well researched, is Ah, Lady. Actually, she's a fashion journalist, followed for for a while on social media, and she wrote a book, maybe last year, You before, and it's called Why Social Media is ruining your life like that book. Catherine. All Murad and I really recommended for people who run businesses well and have Children. Have girls in particular were becoming teenagers. It's not. The title is not why social media is ruining your life because it doesn't ruin the life of everyone it is. The title is more like why you're letting Social Media Room your life, and it's incredibly well researched a lot off, really in depth interviews with experts and

spk_0:   53:43
stopped a lot of signs. And that a

spk_1:   53:44
lot of signs is not Fluffy is when she's a journalist and she's done it really well, and he's so scary. It's really, really scary. But a lot of it is a lot of tips on how to manage it.

spk_0:   53:56
At the end of each chapter, there was a lot of Okay, don't despair. Don't throw your phone. It's in your show helped

spk_1:   54:02
with this and this and this, but a lot of it best on her own personal experience. And it's incredibly eye opening to, you know, when you follow these these people, so I mean southerly. They reveal the raw reality. You and she did the campaign when she was doing with the publicity around the book on DH. She published all pictures on her instagram feed with a complete different caption. Oh, interesting. So you know, she does a lot of like editorial opposed beautifully shot images of her wearing, you know, high fashion, and instead of like you know, I don't know all the fields for these new jumper from Chloe on It was like that day my husband of 10 years left me. Yes,

spk_0:   54:44
she went through a divorce. That's right, you know, and you realised

spk_1:   54:47
all the captions on it, Jim it It's just it's incredible. Interesting. Oh my God, I was pulling her thinking. She has it all,

spk_0:   54:55
she said. Paris Fashion Week. Stepping out of a cargo or driver. I think that authenticity and that thing and it's the

spk_1:   55:01
same in into euros world. You know, we there is This train is really scary off people creating spaces Day they think will look good on social media are rather than feel happy in. And you know something where you have clients and we have to tell them. Yeah, yeah, there's a train that is really cool. You've something to remember. You think Let's go back to what your life is about your Children and yet it's lovely to be able to take a picture, and I've been yet. I have 100 light on these diagram and makes you feel good. But it's not

spk_0:   55:28
always the rial whole storey as a topping that awareness No, I love that book as well. For the same reasons she was at the lid first. Last year wasn't. Yeah, was she gave a great talk time. Read the book afterwards. Of course. Super selection. Super selection of books. Yeah.

spk_1:   55:42
So a bit logo for you? Not all night. You

spk_0:   55:46
know, some of the best books that people have read. It could be a work of fiction. It's something. Sometimes It's about the moment in your life when you read it. Yeah. Look, this isn't The book is about the time in your life when it sparked something or God, I love a bunker buster as well. I mean, I absolutely love a really good I love a basic thriller. Yeah, I read everything. And some of those books have meant just as much to me as you know what you think a book should be. So it's I love to hear what people are reading them, what they've loved. Thank you. On DH. If you have to say your greatest

spk_1:   56:17
achievement, what would it be? Cliche thing my family and my father is The whole thing is a whole thing. There includes the family includes still being here I mean, with everything that I went through, probably, you know, I consider myself very lucky to overcome me. Oh, yeah, Still be a functioning human being that can actually raise other human beings is an achievement in itself. Yeah, I'm celebrating 15 years with my husband this month. One. I think that's a big achievement on incredible working on a marriage, working on a relationship for for 15 years and not feel like it's a chore feeling. It's an absolute dream and pleasure, you know, every day, the 90% of the days. I think it's something to be proud of. I mean, that was amazing. With a lot of work is no is you know, you just see that you get married and that's it. And is an incredible amount of work on yourself on how you deal with your partner and what you know, compromising and giving in. And, you know, it's a lot of stuff. So I think 15 years with the life partners, something that's incredible, very proud off their we've achieved. But yet the kids who knew my standards of motherhood was so low that I had never occurred to me that this would be my life.

spk_0:   57:40
How do you I mean, it must be challenging. If that was your experience. If your experience was no positive, how do you sort of stop bringing that into your current situation? If you learn over time, have years of

spk_1:   57:53
therapy on Also, I was very lucky to be able Teo surround myself. We've alternative mothers. So I have a lot of wonderful women in my life that I chose and chose me and are feeling, you know, all these little gaps there. Yet being a mother without mother is a Sperry. Everybody go through the one thing I'm not claiming to be, you know, someone who suffered more than anyone. But he's very, very hard when I had my daughter is weird. And yet, when I see you together, us yeah, this one's achievements is it's just it's something that came naturally to me because I had no confidence, you know? So it's been that has been in achievement.

spk_0:   58:40
Thanks so much for listening to the good intentions podcast. You can find links to issues and two books that we discussed in the show notes, and you could look for the podcast on Instagram. It's good intentions. You A. Please do make sure you subscribe to the podcast. And if you enjoy this conversation, I would so appreciate a review on whatever platform you're using. It helps more people find out about podcast. See you next time.