Dan Morgan - Author and Frequent Anfield Wrap Contributor

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hi, this is Chris Hawkins and you're listening to the Liverpool Connection Podcast. Hi everyone, and welcome to the Liverpool Connection Podcast. I'm Daz. This is my story pod and I've got a great guest coming up. He's got a book coming out called Jürgen Said to Me. Jürgen Klopp, liverpool and the Remaking of a City. I can't wait to read it. I think it's coming out in June or July. He's a regular on Anfield Rap and he's also a senior community engagement officer at James's Place Wood and we'll talk about that a bit later. But I welcome Dan Morgan to the pod. It's great to have you on. I know you know the last couple of weeks have been not what we wanted or expected, but you know what we? We keep going, don't we?

Speaker 2: 1:06

yeah, it's been a. It's been a tough ride. Um, you know I'm doing this just after everton. Uh, the fixture for me, um, I look for when the fixtures get announced as the one that you do. You do not lose under any, under any circumstances, under any context. You just don't go to Goodison and lose. And I was having a think before about the last time we lost it and how old it was. It was 23. So yeah, it's been a long old time. Jürgen Klopp's record hasn't been great down the years, but yeah to to have the ways in which Liverpool have have lost games of football and obviously the wider context of that with the managers last season, with the title race, with the thing that we all wanted you know the romance we wanted, the fairy tale ending. It's been, it's been tested in a few weeks, if you'd have read for sure well, at least we've got, you know, four, four matches left.

Speaker 1: 2:05

So you know, all I want the lads to do is like get it together. You know, show some grit in these last four matches. And you know, see, see, see where we are, you know, and everybody's still saying you know twists and turns. Um, but I think the twists and turns are probably with us and not with City or Arsenal. So you know, I just want the lads to show the next game. Just, you know, get three points, get back to winning ways, and you know, that's it. We'll see, give Clopper a good send off.

Speaker 2: 2:41

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, as I looked before about points around the last nine games of the season and it was interesting really. You know, yeah, absolutely, I mean, as I looked before about points around the last nine games of the season and it was interesting really. You know, we could only got seven out of 15 available points, so the best we can get is 19. In the past three seasons we've hit 23 points out of a possible 27, you know. And then you have to go really back to all the way to 17-18, where we get 15 out of the 27 from the last nine games. And you think about 17-18 as a really interesting season in loads of ways, in that it feels like Liverpool are on the cusp of something. It feels like there's only the beginning of what's to come. There's the patchwork of what Jurgen Klopp is going to do, is going to do not, has Klopp is going to do, is going to do not, has done, is going to do, and 17 and 17 18s are really interesting.

Speaker 2: 3:30

I think, in loads of ways, a really wonderful season, because you know you have all of these setbacks, like you know, you think, for example, of I don't think it's too straight away if the biggest ones, really. You get Peter, old Trafford, and then that's the night that you know. Boss Night holds an event and Lea, lea, lea gets signed. For what is about I think I put it in the book because I interviewed Sean O'Donnell for it from Boss Night it gets signed for about 15 minutes. It's a stop. It just gathers pace and momentum and there's just huge defiance around getting beaten, old Trafford. And there's the biggest one, of course, which is Kiev and losing in the Champions League final. That was there and you know, it felt like. It felt like the world was only looking at us, even though we just lost that game. It felt like, you know, this was just the beginning, this was the start we were going to build, we were going to seize this moment, we were going to really really build this momentum.

Speaker 2: 4:29

And now the context is totally different because we're at the end of something, and so you know, I agree with you that I think the team needs to show something now and finish the season as possible, regardless of what that means. If it means third place, if it means third place, then it means third place. But you finish seasons, a mentality of going into the next one and achieving something else and, whether or not you know, the fact remains that that won't be with this manager, whether or not it is with Arne Slott or somebody else. Liverpool need to carry that momentum through because they're going to need people to believe in this side next season, despite the fact that Jürgen Klopp isn't there, and you know that is something that is fundamental in terms of us and our journey with them.

Speaker 2: 5:15

The players won't change. You might get one or two in transition, you might get players to leave, you might get players to come. I don't think there'll be a ton of changes, given what we outlaid last summer. So we've got to believe in that side, we've got to believe in that squad, we've got to believe in that team, and then we've got to believe in the fella. Who's going to be leading them.

Speaker 1: 5:33

Yeah, I 100% agree. So, dan, let's go back, you know, when you were a kid. When did you really start supporting Liverpool? I went when I was 6 years old with my grandad and this was 76, so I'm a lot older than you lot it was just something I couldn't comprehend at 6 years old. It wasn't until I was about 10 or 11 where I really started to, like you know, figure out things about the, the football club and and the players. Uh, how was it for you?

Speaker 2: 6:15

yeah, I remember going to. I went to villa at home in 92 and I don't remember much about it. Uh, remember the old main stand and the old Annie Road, but just, you know fleet and split. Second memory but my grandma lived and still lives on Priory Road, stone's throw away from Anfield. She still goes out and sells people off if they litter, which I love.

Speaker 2: 6:37

So you know, I I had that geographical affinity to Liverpool football club because it was literally where I spent a lot of my childhood and it was part of my development, it was part of my family, sort of patchwork, if you like, of where I grew up. And then I think the second stage was the 90s and the product of the Premier League and it becoming this sort of yeah, almost, yeah, this really sort of almost spellbinding semblance of entertainment and just something that was, you know it had flashing colours, it had you know flashing kits and it had you know music to and it had you know music to soundtrack it. And you know Liverpool were great, but you know, at the same time they were still Liverpool in a way, you know they were on the cusp of trying to get back to something that you know you could never really get a semblance of being that young to get back to something that you know you could never really get a semblance of being that young. Um, and then you know, I think for me the real sort of icing on the cake was was the treble season, when I really started following liverpool. Um went to a lot of away games that season, went abroad, that season in 2000, 2001, and you just got, you know, the dopamine.

Speaker 2: 8:05

The drug then hits you, doesn't it? And you, you just know what that feeling of winning is like and you want it more and more and it stays out with your mates and it's, you know, it's effervescence, it's eternal youth and and that's it. Then you're in and you know, I think there was those three stages with me and that took me to about the age of 15, and then, you know, you sort of wedded to it after that, aren't you?

Speaker 1: 8:27

yeah, I, I, you know, I, I think that's. It's not just the football, is it like? It's the hanging out with mates, like let's go for a pint before the match, you know, or especially away days in europe, just the traveling, even though it's though it can be a massive pain in the arse. You're with your mates and you know you go to places that you probably never would. You know, look on a map and go. That's where I'm going on holiday. You know we go to Bulgaria, hungary, you know wherever, and that's what it is. It's the trains, the planes, the boats it just makes for you know boss stories, and that's what I, you know because I live over in the States. Now, that's one of the biggest things I miss is just hanging out with my mates back home and going to all these away days.

Speaker 2: 9:25

I would say as well, you can sort of bookmark your life based on for me anyway, I can bookmark my life based on football and music, so I can tell you more better where I was. If I try and recollect a certain football game or a certain song of a certain time, then I can you know. Or actual things that have happened in my life. But if time, then I can you know. Or actual things that have happened in my life, but if you tell me, you know. If you ask me when Vladimir Smita scored the winner against Chelsea, they'll probably say, oh, spring 2002, and I'll probably be right, you know and that's. But then you sort of you remember other things around, that, don't you?

Speaker 1: 10:02

Who was your? Who was your, uh, who was your like boyhood hero?

Speaker 2: 10:05

um boyhood, as a child, that robbie um was just, you know, and it wasn't. The thing about father is, when you think back to him, it wasn't fantastical. He wasn't that good, like you know. You knew you were watching a genius, a magician, you know, a sort of generational talent in terms of a finisher. But I'll always say and you know I say it to this day as someone who's watched football for most of my adult life Steven Gerrard was the greatest player I've ever seen on a football pitch.

Speaker 2: 10:41

He, he could 10 out of 10, so many attributes that you know that other players have. You know he had the passing ability of a Trent or a Thiago. He had the tackling of, of any sort of worldly midfielder that you want, you wanted, in your side. He, he was quicker than people thought. He could cross a ball on a sixpence. Apart from whoever else you want to put in there, he was the best right back in your side. He was the best whole midfielder in your side. He was the best number 10. He was the best right winger. Despite the fact that he hated playing there, he was, for the time, the best player in his position wherever he played across world football. He remains, not by some distance, but easily as a go-to. And this isn't nostalgia in terms of just pure ability from what I've seen of the footballers, he remains the greatest footballer I've ever seen in the flesh.

Speaker 1: 11:44

Yeah, well, I mean, and for a player to basically put the whole team on his shoulders, there wasn't a player around that could possibly do that apart from him. The age old chat about like Scolzi and Lampard and Gerrard they're not even in the same sentence. For me, you know, yeah, just not, he just did everything. I mean, scolzi was good at what he did, lamps was good, but not even in the class that Gerrard was. I mean, not for me. In the West Ham FA Cup final, like he just took, took the ball by the horns, and same, you know, same, with Istanbul and in the Napoli game at Anfield, you know, where he scored a hat-trick, he was just like I'm not having this, I'm not having it.

Speaker 1: 12:47

And for me, as a child, it was Kevin Keegan, because he was just the first amazing player I'd really attached to and then he sodded off to Hamburg after a year. But then for me it was John Barnes, just because I'd never seen a footballer do what he did. But yeah, stevie's, just, it's just. And I think, you know, the biggest thing what people try and dig, especially for us and for Stevie, you know, is the slip. But that's that just. It happens in football, it happens to the best players in the world. It just wasn't meant to be, and I think that's. My only regret for him and I'm sure that's his regret is that he never won the league with us.

Speaker 2: 13:44

Totally yeah, he was a tour de won the league with us. Totally yeah, he was. You know, he was a tour de force for me. Like I said, it was in terms of like pure athleticism as well. He was just on a different planet and I think this, you know this becomes a stylistic thing. You know, because you might love players who have a bit more, you know, you might love centre-halves, you might love knocks, whatever it becomes about what you like in a footballer.

Speaker 2: 14:11

And the same way that I'm pretty sure that, as Wayne Rooney played for Liverpool, it would be a close toss-up between the two of them, because I loved Rooney as a player, absolutely adored him, just thought he was, he was phenomenal, thought he was everything he'd want out of a footballer in his side, thought he was, you know, he was so pivotal to man United over those years, by far and away for me, the best player for a steady number of years.

Speaker 2: 14:42

And Rooney, you know, like Gerrard, was an all-rounder in that sense, you know, could do everything, but done everything with, you know, with just raw ability, and also, you know, just sheer sort of poetic, gorgeous, aesthetic class at times. And so how do you marry those two things up and and say that that isn't a unique footballer that isn't you know. Up and say that that isn't a unique footballer that isn't a worldly talent pair of them wearing it. They both come out of really tough estates in Liverpool, one of them I grew up in as well. At the same time, so I can attest to is a credit to the city and credit to them.

Speaker 1: 15:20

What's your favourite Gerrard moment, apart from Olympiacos and apart from the FA Cup? Because those are two of the obvious ones.

Speaker 2: 15:32

I remember being in Goodison in the treble season when we played Everton in September. It was not long after 9-11 and we played Everton and we were getting beat 1-0 and it was around that time it was the story of the derby. Really, you know, liverpool would just turn up at Goodison and just throw a bit of a brain fart in, really, and Gerrard, they're getting beat 1-0. I think Kevin Campbell scores early and I'm at the Bullens but I'm in the Everton end of the Bullens close to the Gladys Street and Gerrard picks the ball up and he's you know, think about him when he's younger. He has all the groin pains and stuff.

Speaker 2: 16:14

But when you look at him in the flesh when you were at games physically just looked head and shoulders above people, looked like you know he had the foot on people at times and he's got the skinhead and he's got the look and stuff Picks the ball up, edge of the box and there's nothing really going for him. He's got a player I think it's Gary Naismith, square in front of him, just drops his shoulder so eloquently to the left, shifts to the right and I'm right behind it and he just unleashes this arrow and honest to, shifts to the right and I'm right behind it and he just unleashes this arrow and I asked to God I'm not sure the keeper had even got off his feet to dive and it was. It nearly ripped the net off. And he does that celebration on the Bullens road where he sticks his tongue out and he cups his ear and there's just bottles of coke flying at him and all kinds lighters the lot. And I'm pretty sure I've seen a couple of mobile phones and he was a Zerpach then they were bigger but I just remember thinking, oh, like he is on another planet.

Speaker 2: 17:17

And the thing was, the reason why that moment sticks out is because derbies were just blood and guts and they were horrible and there was nothing about them that screamed. You know world-class moments and I'd argue to agree still now. You know the concept of something beautiful happening on a football pitch in a Merseyside derby, especially at Goodison Park. Even over the years, you know, you think some of the goals Liverpool have scored, they've never really been moments of sheer class from a player and that for me, I just fell in love with him. Then as a footballer I thought, like you know, that is one I'll always stick with, because he just grabbed it and just was like this isn't, this isn't happening on me.

Speaker 2: 18:01

And he was from Eitan and that was another reason why they hated him the most, because he knew it, he grew up with it, he'd lived it and, yeah, I think for me there's so many, there's so many big ones, there's a few. There's a few where I've sort of I've sort of thought I'm not too sure in terms of some of the other stuff he's done on a pitch. You know, I remember one apportionment where he scores a free kick and he just runs to the cop and he's sort of beating his chest and I think he's saying I'm not fucking mad. And I just thought, nah, I don't like that. And he was, you know. So you just have little moments.

Speaker 2: 18:43

You have these journeys with a footballer, people you don't know people you have no affinity to on a personal level, but as players you create this connection with them and you go on. You know you go on that sort of road, that path with them, especially for him, as he's done his whole career a little bit. So I'd say that Everton won, but there's so many, there's so many as a player that you remember that he was just unbelievable. You know he was just another level for me on loads of ways.

Speaker 1: 19:11

Well, watching him, I really like how he kind of discusses Torres and Suarez and he's just like playing with Suarez was just something else you know. I mean, you go back to, you know Everton as well, like Suarez and Gerrard, and you know some of the crazy passes from Gerrard and then the goals from Suarez. I mean, what's your favourite partnership? Was it? Is it Suarez and Gerrard or the Torres era partnership? Was it? Is it Suarez and Gerrard or the Torres era?

Speaker 2: 19:49

yeah, suarez was always tainted for me with the stuff that came with him and some of the stuff that happened with him. I just always had a sense of feeling a bit unsettled with him. It always felt like for me, anyway, something was around the corner and you do sort of abandon that in 13-14 because he is just so good with him. You know, it always felt like for me, anyway, something was around the corner and you do, you know, you do sort of abandon that in 13-14 because he is just so good and you go. You know, you sort of decide you're going, you're going all in. But yeah, I think, for me, you know, gerrard and the tenants in front of him, you just watch that Madrid game back, for example, at Anfield, and they just, they just tear them to pieces like that is. You know, that is for a generation of supporters, something that they'd never seen before the team winning the European Cup. But it all felt a bit, you know, felt a bit giddy and it felt like we were sort of really overperforming and riding a huge crest of a huge wave. But to watch a Liverpool side spearheaded by them two display that much class. I think you just had to sit up and say, ok, you know, this is the first time in my life that I've actually seen Liverpool be Liverpool in inverted commas, that I'm actually seeing a reputation be upheld in loads of different ways.

Speaker 2: 21:08

And the two of them were just yeah, they were unplayable and the thing about them was they looked like they enjoyed playing with each other. You know, they sort of sought each other out and they really, really had that sense of I'm going to trust you on a football pitch. And you had other operators behind them, a lot of those in there. You know you have people who could facilitate in loads of ways. So, yeah, I think those two and those are only a brief period, but definitely until we get the club. You know, I told suarez and storage in there as well, by the way, in their own way they had that really amazing partnership where they just look like two individual forwards performing together, if that makes sense, um, but I think I think until we get to clap, it's definitely gerald and torres, from what?

Speaker 1: 21:54

from what I see, most of the people you know yeah, I just think when torres caught his hair, that was it. You know he there was something after, like as soon as he caught his hair, he just just didn't seem.

Speaker 2: 22:08

Kind of the Samson effect.

Speaker 1: 22:10

Yeah, exactly, I was just like oh man, because he was one of my favourite players as well. It was just great to watch, like him and him and Stevie telepathic, just they. You know, stevie just knew where torres was gonna go and that's, you know, you bring it up, you know, in in today's world and you're just like I. I wish some of our forwards right now had telepathy and knew what was going on. But you know, it's kind of a good segue to bring in. You know, the Klopp era and this is your first book. Um, how long did it take for you to? I mean, when? When did you just sit down and go all right, I'm gonna write a book about Jürgen Klopp and the city and what he's, what he's brought um.

Speaker 2: 23:04

It was after the FA Cup final in 2022. So I live in London now and went to the game that day, roasting hot day, spent it with friends, just felt, really felt like of a time. These were our days, these were the days that this guy was giving us and I think, if you remember, around that time, he just signed the contract extension to 2026. We won the FA Cup. We'd won the double League Cup and FA Cup, domestic Cup double but we miss out on the league by a point again on the final day. The European Cup final is the final and Paris becomes its own thing in that. And you know, on the pitch, courtois has the game of his life and you play that game out 10 times over. It doesn't end that way. But I just had this overwhelming sense of, I guess, of love and appreciation for him and you know I'd worked in in football full time for a couple of years and was writing full time and editing full time, and you know I've been writing for the Anfield Rap since 2017 and in a lot of ways, it felt like the right time to write a book and I do believe that that is something that people need to consider when they are doing it because it's such, it's such an outlay of work and time and effort and there's such an impact on your life. Um, but I sat down and I spoke to a former colleague who you know, I have a lot of trust in and really readers and writer, and I just said, you know, let let me just troubleshoot here with you, let me just throw a few things out. And we got to the idea of writing a book about Jürgen's impact on the city of Liverpool and to do that from a perspective of real stakeholders in the city, people who keep Liverpool ticking every day, people who are working, living, propping up the community, not just in Liverpool but from beyond as well. And it really then just wrote itself a lot of it.

Speaker 2: 25:19

Now, on Flexion, it was my first book and I was sort of doing it by the seat of my pants in a lot of way, but it was, it was all there, it was ready to come out and I just I did sort of, just, really, really, um, just sort of will on that momentum until I got everything that I needed to get out and the one thing I'll always say was that I never, I never hit a rough patch in writing it. You know, I never hit a dry patch or a part where I just thought this is really hard, I'm struggling to get through this element of it. It was all there. I knew what I wanted to say, I knew who I wanted to speak to. It needs a polishing because I I knew that if I carry on this momentum all out, then I'll basically have the book there and the other stuff, like editorial stuff that can come later, like it doesn't matter if a comma's in the wrong place, that's. You know, that's not the important thing right now. The important thing is the content, is the, the actual story that you're telling. So I actually found it a really enjoyable process.

Speaker 2: 26:28

I didn't enjoy that summer because, you know, I was sort of looking out my window, people at the pub and, you know, people enjoying, enjoying the the daylight and having an evening's after, and I'm just squirreling away and typing. But ultimately, you know it was a. It was a very acceptable labor of love because I loved, right, and I loved, I love getting it out there and love, love, getting it down, and you know, as luck should have it, um, or you know well, however you want to define, look, you know I've had the opportunity to bring it out now, at the time in which the manager's calling time on his career, which you know was just, it was just happenstance. The book was scheduled to come out in march 2025, um, but you know, the manager decided to do what he'd done and I was lucky that I had 95 percent of the thing done at that point, so we're able to bring it out now, at that time when, hopefully, you know, everyone's captured enough feeling of what he's brought to us as people and as a place.

Speaker 1: 27:29

Really, are you? Are you nervous for the release?

Speaker 2: 27:37

I'm not, you know, and I'm not somebody who deals well with um self-praise, but I think it's a good book and I think it's, I think it's something I would like to read and I think I think I've created a good piece of work. I think I've created a project that is interesting and I think that I think that on that base alone, then no, I'm not, I'm not nervous because I think I can be proud of it no matter what, and also you know it helps, you know nervous because I think I can be proud of it no matter what, and also you know it helps, you know, to some journalists and people who are invested in football, who's who's written words and you know who's who's involved in football I really respect, and you know I've asked them what they read and asked them what they thought and asked them if they'd be willing to provide some reviews for it, and I've had some really nice words come back, like I say, from people who's you know who's standing in the game and you know whose style of writing about football I've really taken a lot from over the years. So so that's, that's always nice and that always gives you a bit of confidence. But I think it's the book and I think, you know, I think I've written it in a way which is sincere and the way I would describe it is you know, the book has four characters. Really, the four characters are Jürgen, they're the city of Liverpool, they're the football club, and then there's me and I'm sort of the fourth protagonist.

Speaker 2: 29:04

I'm, in the book, the least of those four characters, but there's a little bit of my story in there as well, and you know, I think that's really how I wanted it to be. You know, the city of Liverpool and the people who tell the story of the city of Liverpool and their Liverpool is the most important thing. You know, yeah, he said recently which I found really interesting, in an interview. He said you'll find plenty of books, um, about him, but none from him, and I guess the best way I can describe what I've done is that it's it's ultimately a book for him so you obviously wouldn't mind him picking it up then well, you know some people have asked me this.

Speaker 2: 29:46

You know people have said you know, did you try and interview him? I said no, people have said you're going to try and give him a copy of it. And I'm ultimately left at saying that if I approached him and said here's a book on how you changed the city of Liverpool, he'd probably say over the air, because that's the person he is. You know he ultimately, to coin his own phrase, strives to remain the normal one. You know he strives to remain just the guy from the Black Forest as he describes himself. So the heap that sort of, that sort of status and responsibility on him. You'd probably hate it in lots of ways. So you know he might pick a copy of it up I hope he does when he's on a beach somewhere or he's playing, so doing whatever he's going to do with his life post-Liverpool. But knowing him he probably won't. He'll probably just say that's a load of bumf because I'm just a normal fella. So why is this lad writing about me changing when I think he probably knows he did in most ways?

Speaker 1: 30:49

100%, he did. I mean, he's more than a football manager. So that's my next question what has Jürgen meant to you over these past 8 plus years?

Speaker 2: 31:03

Yeah, I think the older I get, the more I feel like. I don't know if you agree to this, but life ultimately becomes about moments and about memories, and I talked before bookmarking your life through football and music and stuff like that. And you know, when this time passes and enough time passes we will all, as Liverpool supporters, look back on Jürgen's time with, just, you know, a fleeting millisecond thought. But I think what's important is, you know what feelings will that thought bring? And for me it will always be a sense that you know he made a place come alive, you know he brought a city to life. Now, I remember I used to do, I used to do Radio City Talk at the top of St John's Beacon, you know a very famous landmark, and Liverpool used to do that every Monday, five till six, with an Evertonian, a warm Evertonian, a friend who's still a friend, called David Faheely. And you know, know we go on the radio and we talk about Merseyside football for an hour and the first thing to mention was that you know there's nothing better than doing live radio. It's intoxicating, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's just such a drug in loads of ways. Um, so I love radio, I love live radio. I always will. But I always remember when it was Jürgen, when it was at the start of Jürgen's tenure, especially around the time that he got announced, I used to run to the tower. I used to finish work in the city centre and I used to leg it as quick as I could to get to the tower and sometimes I'd go just to to wait outside the recording studio at the top of the tower and just taking the panoramic view of the city, because the city felt on fire. You know, I would describe it, trying to describe it as you know, it felt like. It felt like the kitchen party when everywhere else was shut. You know, it felt like the place that was still open. It felt like the, you know, the place where everyone had eyes on, and it was. You know, it was.

Speaker 2: 33:18

What Wiggins created is the thing that, even though they won't admit it, every other football fan wants from their experience of the game, from their investments, from their involvement in football. They want to feel like, first and foremost, the fella representing them is someone they can get behind. But they want to feel like the thing that he's selling is just so believable and also it's bearing fruit. It's evidenced, it's corroborated by what's going on and we had all of that. So, for me, the thing he's given me is, in a very basic sense, memories, but memories of a time in my life that I'm just going to always look back on and think.

Speaker 2: 34:05

I think I put in the epilogue of the book yeah, I think I say those days were lived. You know, and I think that's, we all have that, no matter what, forget about the last four games of the season. That means that's arbitrary. No one in a year's time, no one in two years time is going to give a shit that we went out of the Europa League to Atalanta. I said to someone the other day actually, who knocked man United out of the Champions League in 12-13. No one can answer me. It was Ferguson's last season. No one can answer me that because it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. It doesn't matter no one's defining Alex Ferguson's tenure at Manchester United by what happened to them in the Champions League in his last season. Yeah, they won the league, but look what happened the next season there. It's about a body of work over time, and so that's what we'll remember from Jürgen being alive, living days, a time in your life where you know you lived?

Speaker 1: 35:04

it. Yeah, I think I'll miss. Just you lived it. Yeah, I think I'll miss, just as you like, just being a human being. You know, more than a football manager, just somebody that you know because I'm from Thornby so you know he lives around the corner and from where my sister is and he's I've had mates bump into him and there's not this big aura about him. He's just a regular person, that's just a really good football manager. But you know, I think I'll miss his humour, his presses. He's just. I think I'll miss his humour, like his presses, like he's just a smart human being. But what he's brought to me is just this joy. Like I've loved watching Liverpool for the past eight years, not that I haven't before, but the style of football and just the person that he is, you know, taking time out to, you know, talk to people on the street. Just I'll miss his fist bumps. You know art etta can try and do it all he wants, but it just looks. It looks cringe and so does the la, la, that's just even more cringy. But I'll just miss the little things.

Speaker 1: 36:32

For me and it it is going to be a sad day, but you know, as we all know as liverpool supporters, a sad day can turn into a really better day with the next manager or the next player that comes along. You know, everybody thought after for me, after kevin keegan, there would be nobody else. Kenny came in and did the business. So it's. You know, it's not all doom and gloom after clock leaves. Um, but you know, obviously, but obviously massive shoes to fill for any manager to come in. But people need to stop going. Klopp 2.0, there won't be another Klopp. There never will be. The next manager has to put his stamp on the team. But yeah, it will be a sad day. I might have to go in another room and have a little cry, but that's all right, men can cry these days, of course of course.

Speaker 2: 37:44

Yeah, I mean, I think it will be really heartfelt. You know, I don't know how he's going to get through that last game in loads of ways, because he's an emotional person and so, yeah, I think for him it's going to be something that he's going to have to approach and deal with. And I think it's a good point that you mentioned about the fact that you can just see him around Fonby and you can sort of feel his presence in the city a lot of the time. And I always get quite fascinated about what Liverpool means to him, because that is ultimately something that we probably still don't know a lot of, because he's just been on the trail of managing a football team for the last eight and a half years, and not only. You know let's have it right the job he does goes beyond some of the parts of what he's employed to do. You know he operates in loads of ways as a top-level CEO in finance or in the corporate world the amount of money he's earned and the amount of work he's across. So I think, in time, one thing I'd love to know is what Liverpool means to him and that's the thing that I've really tried to explain in the book is what is Liverpool Like? Liverpool is so complex in loads of ways as a place and as a concept and as a culture that you know ultimately is the reason why you'll encounter people who really despise it and decide that it's not for them because they see it as individualism and they see it as performance-based sort of behaviour. But has anyone actually tried to look into why Liverpool feel the need to boot the national anthem, for example, and how far back that goes? Has anybody ever tried to try and sort of look at the economic stats around Liverpool and some of the failed projects that have been left at the hands of local government and the ways in which the city had to fend for itself in loads of different ways? You know since, since Thatcherism particularly, but even before then, and you know again, this is, this is all something I try to link back into what I've written.

Speaker 2: 40:18

I read it. I read a book just before I started work on my project, um or Boomtown, by Sam Anderson, and it tells the story of the Oklahoma Thunder basketball team. But it tells it in conjunction with just telling the story of Oklahoma, which just is this basket case of a city that wasn't even a city that long ago and just comes to be through these crazy set of circumstances, through these unbelievably cavalier people, and I really got the sense of a place. You know, I don't invest myself in basketball, but if I did, I'd be an Oklahoma Thunder fan, because I understand the concept of the place now, as well as the sporting organisation. And so, you know, I think I really wanted to get across.

Speaker 2: 41:12

Well, what is liverpool? What is the pool to certain people? Who holds up liverpool? You know? What is liverpool football club to the city of liverpool?

Speaker 2: 41:20

What, what, what you know about liverpool's if you want to call it entitlement as an opposition supporter, you know that is based on any kind of historic knowledge. Do you know that, for instance, you know Winston Churchill in gunboats towards the city during the postal strike of 1912? Do you know that? No, but whatever it was, it might have been another date. I don't know if they got the year wrong there, but you know there, no, or whatever it was, it might have been another day, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 41:48

I think I got the year wrong there, but there's just that thing of Scousers and people who were invested in Liverpool from outside of Liverpool understand Liverpool, but how much of that influences Jürgen Klopp's time there, how much of that makes a place the place it is when he walks through the door in October 2015,. Because the place has is when he walks through the door in October 2015. Because the place has existed for such a long time before and the place is made up by all these different organisms, not even in the city around it. You know you, as somebody who's from Forney and who's grown up in Merseyside and you know, has had a huge investment in the city, now become a person who, like myself, living in London externally, looks in on Liverpool as a place. It's about understanding it and it's about meeting it in the place that Jürgen Klopp met it in in 2015, and then what it went on to become.

Speaker 2: 42:41

You know, rory Smith terrible name drop here, but Rory Smith gave me a review for the book because he read it and you know, typical Rory Smith fashion, he puts it into better words than I could ever do and it's my project. But you know he said that it was. It was a wide range and exploration of of not just Klopp and what he means to Liverpool, the club, but also what the city of Liverpool means, and that's a really nice thing for somebody to say about the work that I've done because that's really what I've tried to portray is what does Liverpool mean as a city? Because if you understand what Liverpool means as a city, then you understand what Jürgen Klopp has done for the city of Liverpool and the football club, and so I'd just love to see him sit down and however long it takes for him to do so and just explain what Liverpool means to him and the markets left on him as a place.

Speaker 1: 43:42

Yeah, I think it'll come out. I mean it might take him a little while, but what's your thoughts on that? Because it'll come out. I mean it might take him, you know, a little while, but what's your thoughts on, like, because I had a pub chat because we had to, you know, do the review of the match yesterday. So down the pub and about the parade. I think the parade was kind of talked about because of you know how well we're kind of doing in the Europa League and the league. What's your thoughts on that? Because for me it's a no go. I'd rather him stand at the Liverbird building with a microphone and just do it that way. It's, you know, it's I don't know he deserves for us to be, be all there. I'm planning to, you know, go home for it, um, but yeah, what? What are your thoughts on, like a big, massive parade?

Speaker 2: 44:47

in a lot of ways. The first thing I think about is logistics. You know, I think it'd be really hard for him to, to, to stand in front of the lava building and give a speech, because I just think it's really hard to get that to house that many people in one place, and you know that. So is there anywhere in the city that could be a big enough open space for jrkinfloss to address it? I don't think there is, you know. I think I just don't think there is. You know, I just don't think there is. And I think, from a logistical point of view, unfortunately, people don't like this thing, but you've always got to consider it. You know, from a health and safety point of view, if you propose that to Liverpool City Council tomorrow, they'd be having kittens, because from a health and safety point of view it'd just be a massive, massive risk.

Speaker 2: 45:36

Um, and I would and I think that that forms part of the reason why I would always have a parade is is because, second fold, there's just so many people who don't get to be inside the stadium and see these things play out in real life. You know, in in front of their eyes. Really, it's different watching these things on tv and you know some people might just prefer that experience, and that's fine. You know some people might say I'm, I'm all right where I am. Thanks, you know, I don't need to travel anywhere to to see a fella 50 feet away on a bus. Just go past me and stand there for four hours when he goes past in 30 seconds, no thanks, that's fine. But even if you just talk about people from within the city who can't afford to take their kids to Anfield, young kids who want to start following football who can't afford or get accessibility to Anfield they, for me, deserve a chance to see that.

Speaker 2: 46:34

I would always have a parade, and I think the third reason why I'd always have a parade is because there's a lot of turnover of players in the summer and I think we underplay what impact these things have on players. You know, I think if you were Alison Becker or Virgil van Dijk or Mohamed Salah in 2018, the minute you turn that corner on that bus onto the strands with the European Cup, you realise how big Liverpool is. That bus onto the strands with the European Cup you realise how big Liverpool is. You realise this is an incredible thing to be part of and I think it changes a few of them. I think a few of them sit up and go this is massive, this club is huge.

Speaker 2: 47:25

This club is a behemoth. It doesn't exist within this city, it is just everything to the people who are invested in it. And I think especially if I'm sort of talking after last night I think there's a few players who could do with seeing that for themselves. And just that little short, sharp reminder that Liverpool is a very, very big club and Liverpool is everything. I introduced a book with that Jürgen Klopp quote that he says when the club put out that short video after we were in the league and he says, to paraphrase he says this club means everything to the people, so it's our job that it means everything to us, or something along those lines, that we give everything. And so you know, that sense of, oh, this is everything, this is their lives, I think is never a bad thing to see.

Speaker 1: 48:22

Well, before we go, you know, like I said in the beginning, I definitely want you to kind of talk about James's place. I've actually got a really good guest coming up. You know him, Rohan.

Speaker 2: 48:38

I know Rohan, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 48:39

Yeah, yeah, and just his story is just one of hope and determination as well. So I didn't even know you. You worked for james's place and rohan had told me, um, I told him you were coming on and he was like, well, ask him about james's place. And then I was like I didn't even know you. You, you know, work there. So, uh, yeah, please, please, tell us about more about it.

Speaker 2: 49:10

Change Place is a service which helps men who are in a what we deem to be a suicidal crisis, and you know that's people who have just found that life is really hard to navigate. They've reached a certain level of hopelessness, they can't see any hope for the future um and they've they've decided that suicide is the best way for them to to end what they're going through. Um, it was, it was born out of the, the tragic death of a young man, james wentworth stanley, who went looking for help in a suicidal crisis at the age of 21, and he, he didn't feel like he got the help he needed um and he, he ultimately, you know, he took his life and his, his legacy is that we, we provide that space in that time, critical period, where men come to us and they say, you know, I'm at the end and I'm really struggling and I can't go on anymore. And we give them um a short-term therapy based intervention, that's one-to-one talking therapy, um in a center which, you know, I, I can honestly hand on heart say this is, you know, so warm, so welcoming, so non-clinical. And that really makes a difference, because a lot of the people that we see are people who've, you know, never encountered a mental health issue before. They're not known to any mental health services. They're just people who've gone through a really you know, really standard but really tough life event that we can all go through. You know your sort of relationship breakdown, your job loss, you know your sudden bereavement. These are things that we all encounter in life, but they've ended up at a point where they feel like suicide might be the best answer for them. We're saying it's not. We're saying we can help you find that hope for the future, but also we can do it now, and it's been a really amazing journey for James's Place. You know they started the service in Liverpool in 2018. They opened a centre in the Georgian Quarter in Catherine Street. It's a wonderful, wonderful centre, a wonderful building.

Speaker 2: 51:29

You know the sort of the origins of James' place and the people who helped set it up. A lot of them are still there today and that's including a person called Jane Boland, who's our clinical lead across the service, and Jane Jane's a massive Liverpool fan. She's someone you can see at games. She'll be in taggies, she goes to games. She's a wonderful advocate of of of not only the work we do, but she's also you know she's. She's an incredibly knowledgeable mental health professional and has worked in many different sectors around suicide prevention over the years and you know jane is like you know she's somebody who has helped so many people and you know it's great to see that now we are a centre that not only exists in Liverpool but in London and Newcastle as well.

Speaker 2: 52:20

We have aspirations to get bigger and open more centres in England and you know, I think we can do that because ultimately, we know that our intervention and our service works.

Speaker 2: 52:32

We're clinically evaluated regularly. We can say through our own figures now that we've helped over 2,300 men out of a suicidal crisis and so you know it's really really good work and it's just really, really, to be honest, it's just really really fulfilling to work there. You know the culture, the people, the level of professionalism and skill that I encounter every day is really really inspirational for me. So I'm really happy I actually got the opportunity to come to London and work and you know people like Rohan who do incredible fundraising ventures for us and help raise money so that we can be a charity that grows and exists. To see men incredibly inspirational. Also, I'm looking forward to hearing the part with him because he's doing some incredible running right now and he's raising some brilliant money, so his story is an unbelievable one, and one that should be told far and wide some incredible running right now and he's raising some brilliant money. So you know, he's he's he's story is an unbelievable one, and one that you know should be told far and wide yeah, that's that.

Speaker 1: 53:39

You know, I, I, what. What I do usually on mondays is, once I drop my kids off, I start looking for people's stories that you know just are inspirational, because these days there's so so much negativity on the telly. There's just, you know, just bad everywhere. You know, especially after the covid and everything, and just reading, and I had him on before for for about an hour, uh, not even recording, he, we, he just wanted to kind of learn what I wanted to get out of from him, you know, because it is a, you know, uh, kind of a personal moment, personal journey. You know what, what he's been through and yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm still.

Speaker 1: 54:34

You know, I've only heard one percent of it and it's just if, if people, more people, can hear his story and take the time, like if they're having, you know, their own issues and I think, you know, for us, you know, especially around merseyside, or just working class families, you couldn't really talk to your dad about your issues, you couldn't really talk to your mates. Now you can, you know, put your arm around your mates, you can tell he's not doing all right and you're just like let's talk, and I think more people, yeah, to start talking to each other. You know, I told my missus the other day that's. I think that's part of the issue with our society right now is too many two technology's great, right, dan? You know we wouldn't be speaking like this if it wasn't.

Speaker 1: 55:36

But there's too many people got their faces in this and talking like this. You know, like I've always said, like, if you want to talk to me, like, pick up the phone and talk to me, don't text me. I can't stand texting. I just I think it's an easy way out. But you know, from what you do and what Rohan's doing just amazes me. You know, I mean the, the I don't want to say joy, but like what you get out of it must be incredible to help all these individuals because you know a lot of them are at their lowest point. You know For them to think that way they want to end their life. You know for them to think that way they want to end their life Now they can go to a place where they can have a chat, they can get therapy.

Speaker 2: 56:43

You know my hats are off to you and the whole community at James's place. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, yeah, yeah, like I said, I never fail to be inspired by our staff, particularly our therapy team. They're absolute superstars, they're wonderful. Long may it continue and long may it grow and expand, which we're hoping to do.

Speaker 1: 57:00

Well, I hope so too, mate, but I appreciate you coming on spending a little time with me and good luck with the book. I will definitely be getting it. Where can you get the book? Is it going to be on Amazon?

Speaker 2: 57:15

It's on Amazon now on pre-order. It's also on WH Smith Waterstones other booksellers yeah, I think also. The only thing to mention with it is that, yeah, we're looking to bring it forward in terms of the release date. It was originally, uh, scheduled for the 10th of june, but it looks like we can bring that forward now. So just keep a keep an eye out. Really, you know, you can.

Speaker 2: 57:40

You can follow me on instagram, dan l morg that's a n l m o r g or um. On twitter, or whatever it's called now, dan underscore morgan3. I think I'm not on there that much, but on both of those platforms there is a link tree and it will show you different ways in which you can buy the book if you want to. Not planned I've had a few people asking me about Audible and stuff like that. It's not planned, but it might be something that happens in future. So, yeah, just keep an eye out. I can only say I hope people enjoy it. I hope people feel like they can resonate with it. I hope people feel like they got something from it. Same for you guys. I hope you enjoy it when it comes out.

Speaker 1: 58:28

I'm sure I will, and I'll put a link to to the book for amazon and everywhere else, and I'm going to put a link to james's place as well, and amazing. Thank you, choir.

Speaker 2: 58:38

SINGS, oh, we pray for the oh oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh oh.