From Compulsion to Creativity and Inner Peace with Rachel Warmath

In this episode of Engineering Emotions and Engineering, host Justin Wenck, Ph.D., sits down with the incredible Rachel Warmath, an editor, writer, published author, and yoga teacher, to delve into the motivations behind our actions.

Are we driven by genuine desire, or are there underlying compulsions and addictions at play? Rachel's eighth book, "Alive in the Fire: The Journey to Inner Peace and Creative Power" shares her personal journey of navigating addiction, embracing creativity, and the power of self-reflection and you can purchase it now at https://rachelwarmath.com/

Rachel opens up about her struggles with sobriety, the role of yoga in her healing, and the importance of asking for help. She also discusses her creative process, including the significance of morning pages—a concept from Julia Cameron's "The Artist's Way"—and how it has shaped her writing.

Tune in to hear Rachel's heartfelt stories, the lessons she's learned, and how she's turned her challenges into a source of strength and inspiration for others. Whether you're battling your own compulsions or seeking to unleash your creative potential, this episode offers valuable insights and practical advice.

Connect with Rachel:
https://www.instagram.com/aliveinthefireyoga/
Get the book "Alive in the Fire: The Journey to Inner Peace and Creative Power" here: https://rachelwarmath.com/
Rachel's healthy lifestyle blog: www.aliveinthefire.com

Overcome the daily grind with transformative techniques from Justin's book, 'Engineered to Love.'

These practices aren't just about finding peace—they're about reconnecting with yourself and the world around you in meaningful ways.

Access your free materials today at engineeredtolove.com/sample and start living a life filled with joy, ease, and love. 

Watch the full video episode at Justin Wenck, Ph.D. YouTube Channel!

Check out my best-selling book "Engineered to Love: Going Beyond Success to Fulfillment" also available on Audiobook on all streaming platforms! Go to https://www.engineeredtolove.com/ to learn more!

Got a question or comment about the show? E-mail me at podcast@justinwenck.com.

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Transcript

Justin Wenck, PhD: 0:00

Today we are talking about why do you do what you do? Are you doing it because you want to, or are you compelled? Or might you say you have a compulsion, or perhaps even an addiction? So today, to talk about this kind of vulnerable, maybe tricky topic, depending on where you're at I have an amazing guest. Her name is Rachel Wormath. She's an editor, writer, published author. She's getting ready for her I believe eighth book. She's also a yoga teacher, currently based out in Utah.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 0:38

She grew up in Northern California. I've known her since back when I lived in the Sacramento area. She has a Bachelor of Arts in English Creative Writing from Northwestern University. She is also the founder of Alive in the Fire, which is a healthy lifestyle blog and a wellness creativity community. She's very passionate about helping first-time authors share their inspiring stories and launch their books, and she also helped me as a first time author because Rachel is also the editor of Engineer to Love Going Beyond Success to Fulfillment. So you know I've known her for 10 years. She's the editor of my book. She's not writing. You can find Rachel walking her dogs, hiking with her husband which this is like within the past year and she loves to practice yoga and she also loves to read, and you're also quite the speed reader, right.

Rachel Warmath: 1:31

Yes, I am a speed reader.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 1:33

So welcome to the show, Rachel. How are you doing?

Rachel Warmath: 1:36

Thank you, I'm doing great. I'm super excited to be here and chat with you today.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 1:42

And I'm excited that you're on today, because today, when this podcast is coming out, it's coming out June 18th. So if you're catching this just as it comes out, you're just in time. Rachel's eighth and latest book is coming out. It's called Alive in the Fire the Journey to. What is it? The Journey to Inner Peace and Creative Power, which you can find at rachelwarmathcom. We'll make sure we have the notes and the show notes and if you're watching this on YouTube, I'm sure we'll get a lovely little website crawl thing. So what's? I mean? Eight books Impressive, I'd love to say.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 2:21

I have all of them. I definitely have a few of them. They're all amazing and all kind of very different. Like sometimes you use pictures and poetry and I got to read a little preview chapter teaser and I do feel teased because I really wanted. I was like, fuck, I want some more. I want some more stuff. I want some more stuff and if it's, it's a mix of stories and reflections and then also questions. So I really got that.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 2:52

I'm like if anybody out there is like maybe wanting to journal, but they're like I don't know what the fuck to write about. This is the. This was going to be the book for you where it'll get something going, because you'll go like maybe I've had experience. And then Rachel has like all of these amazing questions and I wouldn't suggest maybe somebody answer all of them, at least not at one sitting, but it's going to get you going, that maybe you could write on and get to know yourself a little better, because I'm a big journal and I think you are also into morning pages. I think I caught some of your posts that, yeah, what's been your experience with morning pages and how has that it was a little less frequent, you know it'd be maybe more like once a week instead of every day.

Rachel Warmath: 3:50

But I find that making time first thing in the morning when my mind is fresh and I haven't, you know, opened up my phone or gone on social media, it's really the best time of day to just focus and see, like, what ideas are there.

Rachel Warmath: 4:07

So my journaling lately it's kind of a mix of my to-do list and like things I need to remember and the more creative parts of my writing. So sometimes I'll just have a sentence or two as part of a piece that I'm writing. For this book that I'm coming out with, there was a lot of just, you know, notes and bullet points to get started and even, like you know, mapping out the chapters and kind of thinking about which stories from my life do I want to bring into this book and then from there, after I had done the handwritten piece of it, I could type that up and, you know, flesh it out, expand on it more. But I think just having that ritual, that daily routine, it really grounds you, you know it helps you like be in touch with yourself and what you're thinking about, what you need before you get, get into the average you know pace of life and all the to-dos, so I find it to be a really helpful tool yeah, I've, I've found that similarly.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 5:14

It's it's very odd because often it's like, oh, I want my, I want my freedom. And it's often through sort of these like routines where, um, yeah, it's like we do the same thing every day at the same, or, you know, after the same event, like waking up, that's often where we kind of like find the freedom because we're doing something before a lot of other stuff gets at us. And this, um, this concept of morning pages comes from this book called the Artist's Way. I can't remember the author's name.

Rachel Warmath: 5:45

Julia Cameron.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 5:46

Julia Cameron.

Rachel Warmath: 5:47

She's a legend.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 5:49

Yeah, she's, I think it's. I think she came up with this like 30 years ago, maybe more. She has like a recent book called like it's like writing for guidance or something like that, which I got Because one of cause, one of the things I loved about your lunch, your intro to the book is you're like, hey, use this the way you want to use it. Um, like, let this be your book. Like literally, like go ahead and rip out a page and I was like, oh my God, rip out a page to a book. Like fuck, this is as amazing that that sort of like touched a part of me.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 6:22

That, because even just to like highlight in a book or write in a book has been something edgy edgy for me and I've done some edgy shit in my life. But yeah, just to make stuff your own and it's interesting. So her latest book, like writing for guidance I haven't finished it because I think it's one of these books where it's like from the title and like reading 10 pages, I'm like I get it, I can, when I'm doing my journaling, I can ask myself a question and then I can answer it, and you know what part, because we have different parts and maybe in us, out us, whatever. It doesn't matter, but it's amazing how like answers come and it sounds like you get some of your creativity flowing and it sounds like you make it your own, which I love.

Rachel Warmath: 7:11

Yes, yeah, it's a very meditative thing and I do receive a lot of guidance. That has just naturally evolved over time. And, you know, I think it's in those quiet moments where you're by yourself and you make space for that like space for just that silence. Um, I feel like that's related to how I approach the blank page once I sit down and I'm typing. And I know a lot of writers struggle with that feeling of like it's kind of this void space and there's a discomfort to the nothingness, right like it. On one hand, on one hand, there's infinite possibility, but on the other hand, it's like, well, what if nothing comes? Um, yeah, so it's just that interesting juxtaposition and I think the more you can sit with that discomfort, that unknown, the uncertainty, the better. That's where the creativity drops in.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 8:09

Yeah, because I'd be curious if you know, because you've worked with so many writers and you've written so much yourself. Sometimes that fear isn't what if nothing comes? It's what if something comes that goes completely against everything I've thought is quote, unquote, good or allowed, like you know. It's like well, what if I write you can tear pages out of books? Like what if?

Rachel Warmath: 8:29

Yeah, that's so true. Um, I would say, with every book project there's at least one piece that's like that right, it comes in and you're just kind of not expecting it and you know, maybe it's like a story that you didn't think you could tell or you're not ready to tell. I would definitely say that this newest book I go into some of those places where you know it's new territory, it's things about me that not very many people, if any, no, and you know that level of vulnerability is not always the most fun at first, but it always tends to be worth it, because you know that's a self-exploration for me first and foremost, and then it's also just, you know, an allowing of my voice to come through and allowing of my heart to be open, and I think that's really where we make lasting changes and we heal Right.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 9:33

Yeah, yeah. So I'm curious, what's maybe something that? Because, even though it's like I've known you for at least 10 years, because I think, like Rachel, like just like last week, like sent me off of Facebook. You know one of these. You know, do you remember when, um and it's like, and it was this yoga hike, um, where you, we would hike a bit and then yoga a bit, and I remember at the time like, um, actually I didn't like it.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 9:59

I was like I like yoga, I like hiking, but I'm like I don't like mixing it up like this and yeah it might, and I like to say that it's probably more of a function of how like anxious I was at the time and that, you know, I think there's probably nothing wrong with a yoga hike, but at the time I was just like I don't, I don't like mixing these things up, it's just I can't handle it. But it was really you did, it was well done. Just I'm like I don't think this is my thing it was different I was, I would agree with that.

Rachel Warmath: 10:29

It was a little uncomfortable to teach it first too, because it was so different. You know, you're kind of switching in between how to hike and how to do a yoga pose, um, but it was a good experiment, I would say well, yeah, and not all experiments work out or are meant to keep going.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 10:48

Everybody knows chocolate and peanut butter, but not everybody remembers chocolate and talcum powder.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 10:56

Yeah because that one didn't work out very well. You got to try. So I'm curious, what's maybe one of the you know um an area you got into that? Um, yeah, maybe I don't even know because, like I've, I've definitely had my, my history of challenges with. You know.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 11:14

Compulsion addiction like uh, yeah, like when I was in my college days, like you know, got in. I was, I was a little bit of a late bloomer, but once I got into drinking it was like I was. I was a little bit of a late bloomer, but once I got into drinking it was like it was. It was a challenge I had, I had. I ended up going to the I'm trying to wonder if I've talked about this, but I went to the hospital three times for drinking when I was in college yeah, my 21st birthday, my 22nd birthday and then two weeks before my 23rd birthday. And so after that I was like, well, fuck, I can't even make it to the birthdays, maybe I take some time out. And I think I went for like a year without drinking and tried a little AA, but that didn't really feel like the thing for me. So I ended up kind of getting into Al-Anon, which is for the families and friends of alcoholics.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 12:06

Um, so I'd highly recommend that to anybody who's has people that have problem drinking in their lives and then also, uh, got into therapy, a lot of therapy and um, and so, yeah, I was. Yeah, rachel's raising her hand, she's like yep, therapy's great. I, I would agree, especially if you find the right person. So some of it is your therapist. There's a lot of things in life where it's like you almost got to treat it like you know a romantic relationship, and we should kind of learn how to find the right people for these things, cause some people think like, well, you just go to a therapist and that, that's that does it. It's like like no, you got to find a good fit yep, yeah, you might have to meet a few therapists before you find the one that you're wanting to work with.

Rachel Warmath: 12:52

but on that same note, um, I do talk about my sobriety in this book and it's not something that I share super often, but I've noticed lately that it's really something I want to share more often. And you know I'm I'm really plugged into a community here in Salt Lake City that is all about recovery. They're called Fit to Recover, they're a gym and they also do like fitness or nutrition and community service and even like creative arts. So that being a part of that has really helped open me up to the conversation in general around substance abuse and how you know how we navigate addiction, how we care for ourselves in that process.

Rachel Warmath: 13:34

And writing that chapter of my book was quite the experience. You know, I go into some of what it was like growing up just seeing alcohol, it within my family, and you know that side of it. And then I talk a lot about a relationship that I was in, I think five or six years ago now, and he was an alcoholic and it was an emotionally abusive relationship. So there was a lot of intensity there, um, but interestingly, were you?

Justin Wenck, PhD: 14:09

also drinking at the time or I was.

Rachel Warmath: 14:12

I was drinking at the time in some ways to survive what was going on, and that was what was so interesting about doing this writing. And you know, as I've stopped drinking and thought a lot about why that is, um, you know, when I left that relationship at first it was easy to think like, oh, you know he had the problem.

Rachel Warmath: 14:34

You know, this was all about his drinking and I know that, but you picked him, though you picked him yep, I picked him and I continued to drink after that for a little while because that was a pattern, you know, for me and a way to numb and a way to, you know, escape. You know my emotions and the things that I was ignoring.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 14:57

Yeah, so. So I'm curious before that relationship, were you, you know, were you drinking much before that? Were you, you know, were you drinking much before that, or did you kind of like have seasons, because, like when we were like actually hanging out? I don't think.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 15:17

I ever remembered, you know, going out for drinks being something that seemed like remotely on the table. But I don't know. I know I've had seasons in my you know where it's like, oh, that time is no drinking. And then it's like, oh, apparently it's a season of drinking and then it's a season of moderation.

Rachel Warmath: 15:28

Yeah, it's definitely kind of been a winding path like that for me. You know I didn't. I never was like a partier in high school or college too much. You know. I went to parties here and there and and drank. But I would say, during that relationship is probably when the height of my drinking was, you know, and it it's not something I do anymore at all and I'm really glad to be in this place, but I do think it can have like a cyclical nature to it. You know, and that was part of what kept me in that relationship was that it would get better and then it would get worse and it just went around and around like that.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 16:10

Yeah, because it's interesting, like that's one of the great things I learned, you know, from Alan on is hearing all the stories. That then made it easier to see the stories, cause it's like I, I have alcoholics in my family and I just still remember this one woman who had just. She would just say alcoholics are liars and manipulators. It's like just what, and it's like that's. It's like that's what they, that's what they do and it's pretty fucking true. Yeah, uh, someone that is super into it, that is not actively working it in some way. Uh, because there's also like how do you know? How do you know an alcoholic's lying? It's like their lips are moving so it's like you really you.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 16:52

you one, it's not just, but most people actually, and oftentimes it's not malicious, it's just they don't know themselves and so always, always, always go by what somebody's behavior is. Their behavior tells you, and sometimes the words tell you very early in the beginning, because I often tell, find a lot of people say things like about what they've been up to recently or what their expectations are, and it's amazing how much those things that someone says in like the first couple weeks of knowing them, where it's just like oh shit, I should have listened. That was not a joke, that was a recipe for this person's life.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 17:28

It was a recipe for this person's life yeah.

Rachel Warmath: 17:31

There were a lot of red flags and a lot of moments of me abandoning myself, my own values or, like you know, the life I wanted, and you know seeing that from the beginning but still not being willing to say okay, no, I'm not going to continue forward with this person. But we learn as we go.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 17:55

Yeah, and I mean, I feel like life, life is learning. We get to, we get to choose how we want to learn. When we decide we want to be choosing, it's like if we want to keep our head in the sand, then we're going to continue to get buried, but at some point we can kind of go no, no, no, give me the shit, I'm ready, I can handle it, I want to, and we can kind of decide how we want to learn and we can learn with friends and with you know, good guides, therapists, coaches, books, all sorts of things, books, all sorts of things. What's I, um, I guess what? I don't know, if you don't mind sure, like what was it that? You're just like you know, um, okay, this is, this is enough.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 18:42

And then what was what was the thing that really shifted that allowed for the changes that sound like you're still getting to. You know, I'm sure it wasn't easy at the time, but like you're now living with the benefit although I'm sure there's some people are just like Salt Lake City, land of the Mormons and 4% beer. Like that does not sound like a benefit. It's like what is this?

Rachel Warmath: 19:05

Yes, so it was a combination of therapy, you know, being in a space where I had reality being reflected back to me very clearly. You know I started to space where I had reality being reflected back to me very clearly. You know I started to see a little bit more clearly what was going on and then essentially it got so bad that it was just a wake up call kind of moment, and I do share that in the book. I talk about one of the worst, what I would say was one of the worst days of my life. You know, I felt so scared and just so unsafe myself that it was just kind of this recognition of you know I'm not going to do this anymore. I literally can't do this anymore. You know my nervous system is so taxed that it's just. It was one of those breaking points, one of those turning points.

Rachel Warmath: 19:56

And once I made that decision and left, you know it was a slow change from there, that first year really on my own, you know just so much emotional healing taking place, like you know, obviously a lot of discomfort. I wasn't sure, like, how I was going to make everything work financially. You know, just personally, like you're just going through this really heavy period of grief and depression, trying to function, trying to continue forward. But I would say the therapy, you know, was really a saving grace and a way for me to process everything, a way for me to find some gentleness with myself through that time and then, as I continued to make better choices and live life in a way that felt more in alignment with me, you know, you start to build some momentum, you start to gain some confidence, and it's just an ongoing process.

Rachel Warmath: 21:03

That's one of the themes in my book that I really hope comes through is just this sense of like there are ups and downs and we heal and we move forward, but it's still an ongoing journey. Like we're never to a finish line. Really, even if we do something like quit drinking, where we we make like a huge change for ourselves, it's like there will still be another cycle that comes through, or another wave of healing, another lesson. Hopefully we can learn to not have to repeat it too many times. You know you were talking about those birthdays. That's kind of an interesting cycle on like a very specific time, you know. I think and I think that can happen like we can go through something several times before it really clicks, and that's just how it is being a human, yeah well, because a lot of these things that we do, it's like they're, they're put there for a reason.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 21:58

I was, um, yeah, just just a few days ago I was, I was out, uh, walking in my neighborhood and there was a, uh, some open houses, and so I went into this one, um, you know, beautiful, right, right, right on the ocean, beautiful view of the ocean, and it was originally like a one bedroom, one bath, but the previous owner like added a bedroom like into the, into the garage, and it's like, go in and it's like, oh, there's like a cool, like bunk bed here, um, and it's, it's there, because the guy actually wanted enough space so he could park his car and get it into the garage. So there's like a notch or a whatever for the hood of the car to make it, and then he turned that into a bunk bed. It's not a bunk bed, it's just a bed, it's like a raised up, so it's freaking weird, it's put there for you know. So it's sort of like, if you didn't know, and you just, you just like, oh, I don't want this bet in here, you rip it and it's like, now you just have a hole into the garage and you would have interesting um and I feel like sometimes, like a lot of these, like you know, addictions, challenges, things like that um, which is why sometimes it's like we want to, we want to be careful how we careful how we get out of some of these things because, like it was put there for a reason.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 23:16

Like usually we don't get into numbing or trying to like bliss out or do something for no good reason. It's like usually there's some like pain or some challenge and that's why just about everything that successfully helps people more often than not involves other people.

Rachel Warmath: 23:36

Yep.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 23:37

It was therapy or 12 step programs or coaching, or I was curious if one of the challenges in your path because you know it's like you've been teaching yoga for a long time, you know blogging and you know one of the things is a little bit of like that, the identity's like. You've been teaching yoga for a long time, you know blogging and you know one of the things is a little bit of like that, the identity of like wait, no, I'm supposed to be someone that has my shit together. I, I am, I am, you know, a leader. I am this and that. You know I'm a Yogi. I'm not supposed to have problems, especially with this.

Rachel Warmath: 24:09

Yes, I was. It's so interesting you bring. Yes, it's so interesting you bring that up because I was in my recent therapy and I've been in therapy this last year, which has been amazing. I was doing timeline work, where you look at a period of time it could be your whole life or it could be a smaller chunk of time and you're taking note of things that happened and when and how.

Rachel Warmath: 24:38

That looked just on the timeline and I realized this chunk of my 20s was becoming a yoga teacher, becoming very, you know, immersed in my practice, dedicated to my practice, starting to teach and open up in that way. And the drinking was taking place in that same time period. And, you know, I kind of had this light bulb moment of like, wow, how interesting is that? You know, I think without the yoga, maybe it wouldn't have been possible to do what I was doing. You know, it was like kind of balancing out in a weird way, but that's not a good pattern to have either. So it was very interesting to have, yeah, these two disparate things happening at the same time in your life.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 25:19

Yeah, and it's funny you say that because I've been kind of like learning that and I've been, you know, looking back on my own life. See that where it's like oh and one area it's like oh, oh, I'm doing all this growth and all this expansion and all this learning and growing and then, yeah, oftentimes it's like, you know, then it's like two, you know, two weeks later, after the most amazing whatever it's like oh, just went like it's far back into, you know the, backsliding into like let's do all the things. Just, you know, do the, the, let's get some drinks and do some porn and all this other shit like shit. And you know, after you know a beautiful, you know, do the, the let's get some drinks and do some porn and all this other shit like shit. And you know, after you know a beautiful, you know meditative week in some place, beautiful, and it's like, and it's like seeing the, the it's brilliant.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 26:03

It's brilliant to see like, oh, an average is being maintained. It's like there is just like, because I think there is something you know well it's. It's sort of like this human will for survival. You know that we can go beyond once we become aware of it, but it's like we don't want change, we want things to be the same, and so there's a part of us, our habit brain, the reptile brain that's doing all that work until we become aware, and then we can go like oh, no, no, no. Now we're going to like really actually up our average, and it's often a lot slower and more challenging than these big bursts that we often see on instagram and you know tv, where it's just like oh, I did the massive action and I lost all this and I can see my abs, and now I'm financially free. I made a million dollars a year.

Rachel Warmath: 28:03

Right yeah. What interests me about those moments, too, is like the shame aspect right.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 28:05

Shame or guilt, Addiction, compulsion, love shame, oh, it thrives off it.

Rachel Warmath: 28:09

When we backslide, what is the response, you know, like if it is that shame response that makes it even harder to get out of whatever that that cycle is. And when you witness that in someone else too, like, like if you've ever had the chance to be there for someone after they've just had some sort of backslide moment, like if you can hold space for them without bringing in the shame and you can just see them and just listen and be understanding, like that is just so powerful, you know, and sometimes I think, we need.

Rachel Warmath: 28:45

We need other people to help us before we're able to do that for ourselves.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 28:50

Um but oh yeah, because often in these spaces it's like we don't, like we don't have the love for ourselves that other people are capable of, and so it's sort of like, and the great thing about love is there's an infinite supply. It's not like, you know, I love you, I love someone else. That's less love for me or less love for other people. It's like nope, there's still more, there's still more love for other people. It's like nope, there's, there's still more, there's still more. And you know people that love themselves, like they have an infinite supply for everyone.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 29:23

Um, and I do find it. It is. It is often easier to love other people sometimes than it is ourselves. And so, yeah, I have found, like, if I see somebody else, I'm like oh yeah, okay, well, not somebody that I'm like, really close with and have a lot of history with, I right, I don't know like it's with, like you know close family or like a love and you're in the shit that's, but like you know a stranger. It's sometimes easy, like when there's no stakes, when it's like well, that's why these group situations are so great with healing these types of things is because it's like oh, it's like yeah, if I hear this person's story. It's like yeah, I don't think they're a bad person. Like that makes sense.

Rachel Warmath: 30:03

Like right, yeah, you have empathy for them and they can be seen, you know, in their whatever state they're in, whether it's positive or negative, just having that state they're in, whether it's positive or negative just having that, that community aspect is so, so helpful, yeah, and it's it's kind of like it's a learning and growing, and sometimes we just need to see these things from enough angles before we go.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 30:28

That's enough of that. Or or just like, hey, you know, because, let's face it, sometimes these, these things, they can be enjoyable, but it's like, is there a compulsion? And sometimes avoidance can become just as tricky as slippery, like well, I'm not going to do that. And I think sometimes that's the challenge of things like Alcoholics Anonymous, like you know, for some people like, yes, probably that's the way to go. Like Alcoholics Anonymous For some people, yes, probably that's the way to go. Yet in some ways it's like there's still a fixation, a compulsion related to alcohol. Just instead of needing to have it, it becomes needing to avoid it for the rest of the life.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 31:06

I'm reminded of, I think there's some old story of two monks walking and they've come across a woman who needs help crossing the river. And they've come across a woman who, like, needs help crossing the river. And so the one monk just goes yeah, hop on my back, I'll, you know, take you across and you know they get across, sets her down and you know they're walking, and the one monk you know two miles down the road goes like I can't. I can't believe you just did that. We took a vow to you know, have no contact with women, to have no contact with women, and you just let her jump on your back and take her across the river and then Andra Munk goes. Well, I let her go back at the river, but you've been carrying on to this all the way back.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 31:52

It's like who's holding on to a story, a pattern, a challenge, um, so you know the some in some ways like the total avoidance of something. That's it's. It's hard and it's also easy, whereas sometimes being able to, uh yeah, dabble in the the areas of gray of nuance and things like that is a whole other level.

Rachel Warmath: 32:20

Yeah, yeah, what? What amount of a grip does it have on you and how is it affecting your mind Right, like if your mind is obsessing over something. You're not necessarily free of it yet. That's yeah. Yeah, I think that's a great thing to be aware of that.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 32:39

there are gray areas, you know yeah, there's yeah, because it's like kombucha. Like you know, because even non-alcoholic kombucha often has like 0.4 percent, because I think it's something like 0.5 percent is the threshold for something to be considered alcoholic or not, so like, can you have, can you have kombucha or not? Like that you know. Like there's gray areas, there's fucking gray yeah yeah, um, so I guess.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 33:03

So maybe let's like flash, flash forward, like looking in retrospect, um, yeah, like, how do you see that period of your life now and like is there anything like you wish you would have would have known, or wish you know if, if you were with you, if you now were with you then and you could also bring along future you cause let's make this even more complicated what would you say to you then? Who's also the you of the little girl that grew up so long ago?

Rachel Warmath: 33:39

I'm making this really complicated, but I get where you're going with it, so I'm just going to go with that. This is why.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 33:46

This is why Rachel's a great editor, cause she can. She can cut to what the essence of something is and go. How about this? Maybe you say it this way Exactly. So let's do a little live editing.

Rachel Warmath: 34:05

Yeah, I think one of the big things I would say is that it's okay to ask for help. There was a big part of me that knew, throughout that abusive relationship, that something was wrong and I didn't want to be there and I didn't feel safe. And I even think that some people around me were seeing some of that go on, you know, but maybe didn't know how to bring it up because that's uncomfortable or you know it. Just, it didn't feel easy for me to say, oh my gosh, I need help, like I need to get out of this situation. And even the same with drinking, like you know, when you can feel a pattern starting to go down a certain direction and you know like, okay, this is getting worse, not better.

Rachel Warmath: 34:49

Or, you know, I think I'm maybe a little bit out of control here, or you know, whatever that is, if you, if you can ask for help, that makes a big difference. And I think you know there's just this strong, stubborn part of me that's hyper-independent, that wants to figure it out on my own. You know that wants to be like you were saying, put together. And so it would be a sign of weakness to ask for help. And so, yeah, in the last, I would say, 10 years, I've really come to understand that and gotten to a much better place of being able to say like hey, I need help with this, and recognizing like there's so many amazing people right around me who want to help, but if I'm so stubborn that I'm not willing to ask for it, you know how do they know that they need to help me?

Justin Wenck, PhD: 35:42

Yeah, and I think there's this you know this myth of you know American independence of just you do it on your own, like the settlers did, and it's total. It's total, complete bullshit, because the most successful people, they have so much help, they have teams of people advising them, doing stuff for them. All this thing, so this illusion that you know. You know I was on food stamps and welfare. Nobody helped me. That's like a Craig T Nelson quote that I find the greatest of just ignoring, like the help that we're always getting even if we don't think we're being helped. There's, you know, it's like I didn't. I didn't create the roads that I drove on to you know drive, even though I'm doing this from home. So I didn't actually drive yet today, but yeah, it is.

Rachel Warmath: 36:36

Yeah.

Rachel Warmath: 36:37

Well well, I was gonna say that notion of of your team. Um, I've learned to embrace that like I think about that sometimes, like who is on my team? And I think about it in terms of wellness too. Right, like all the self-care activities that I do, I have, um, a therapist. That's huge. Uh, I have a massage therapist who I go to and I've built trust with her and you know, a session with her it leaves me feeling so different after I leave. You know, I have a chiropractor. I those kinds of things Like you find yoga teachers that resonate with you, or just you know, all those people are on your team and you can lean on them.

Rachel Warmath: 37:19

That's, I think, a really important thing. It's not a it's a strength.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 37:24

No, yeah, and I get um. Uh, a month ago I had like my, my physical and they and the, the I don't know she wasn't a medical doctor, but I'll still say she's a doctor, whatever her letters after her name, where she was like you know, and what's you know, do you have um, you know? Because there's some aspects where it's like you know, I live, I live on my own, and there's, you know, but she's like, oh, you know, what's your support system? Like like well, I have a therapist, I have a coach, uh, I go to chiropractor and I also have like a really good friend that I meet with once. And she's like, oh, okay, that's good to hear.

Rachel Warmath: 37:56

And I'm like yeah, that is good. That's great that she asked you that question, Because I feel like that's not even necessarily something we would always talk about with someone in Western medicine. They would just be like what are your symptoms?

Justin Wenck, PhD: 38:09

Oh yeah, Well, that's why I um, I got this recommendation for it's, it's um, it's called one medical. They're kind of nationwide, but in certain urban centers where it is like trying to be like a more holistic um it's something like like a subscription or a membership.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 38:26

It is, and it's associated with your favorite, amazon, but it's like it's like nine dollars a month and which I'm like, oh, because like I was trying to make an appointment with another, another doctor, and it was literally like I'd have to go through like five trees on the thing and then I'd leave a message and then they would get back to me at some point. And now I'm like this is, this is awful, this is like not human is awful.

Rachel Warmath: 38:56

This is like not human. Where is this? Yeah, we need to be thinking proactively and have those relationships established and have that trust so that when we're feeling unwell, we already have the support in place.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 39:03

But yeah, it's a challenge with the system that we're in to do that well, because one of the things is is that, however we're living, our life is being supported. We do. We always have a support team. Just, it might be the unconscious, like shit, support team, um, that wants us to be how we are because that lets them be how they are. And so some, you know some people. They're not going to say anything because like, well, they, they don't want to rock the boat, they like the status quo, they don't want it.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 39:34

And it's actually a really annoying when, when one of us changes and wants to grow, which is why, you know, I've been so happy that I've cut out a lot of people. So that's, it's who do you bring in, but it's also who do you cut out. There's a lot of people that I've cut out of my life, but then there's some people that I think they are. They're like patient and loving and they don't tell you because they know that you wouldn't fucking listen anyway. But then, when you do, they're like, oh okay, you got it, this is brilliant. You know, I think it's like a loving, a loving parent with a child. That's like they'll, they'll eventually want to use the toilet, I, you know, but I'm not going to get angry at it Like you know, I'm going to offer when I don't know. I don't have any kids you don't have kids right?

Rachel Warmath: 40:19

No, I don't yeah.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 40:20

I think you've been around kids more than I have, but yeah.

Rachel Warmath: 40:23

So I mean there's everything right, like, yeah, we can only make a change when we're ready. And yeah, having that patience for others and for ourselves, it's always a challenge. Yeah.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 40:37

And I'm getting better and better, but I'm the most impatient with myself. I can definitely be better with others.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 40:46

But as I've gotten better with myself, I've also been getting better being patient with others, which has been really awesome for me to see. So I'm I'm super excited to like read about this in your in your upcoming book, you know, alive in the fire. I like how you also explained the birth of where alive in the fire came from. Uh, so I'm not, we're not going to go into that, but it is, it is in the book. So if you're wondering like what the what? Why is that? Because I I think it was one of those things where it was like, yeah, I don't know, it just seems yoga. Are you sure? Why not? Cause you know you've been, you've had this brand for like 12 years now how long.

Rachel Warmath: 41:24

Yeah, it's been 14 years now, I think Wow. Yeah, right around the time I graduated college, I started practicing yoga, I started blogging and those things led me to wanting to become a teacher Of yoga, mm-hmm, okay, yeah, yeah, rachel can't teach about anything else, only yoga.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 41:48

No, I'm kidding, there's a lot of stuff, because I don't know. There's something where it's just like I always, I always just go to like. When someone just is like teacher, I just immediately think school teacher. Oh yeah, no, I'm not a school teacher.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 42:02

No, I'm a yoga teacher, writing teacher, starting to really lean more into that side of it too yeah, and so if someone wants to get in contact you with that stuff, they should probably go to your aliveinthefirecom, get on your, get on your great amazing mailing list, um, so definitely advise that. But if they want to check out to the book, which you go into some cool things you know, not just about, you know, uh, sobriety and addiction, but like, uh, you know, getting in touch with the body. I think you also talk about running um that they want to go to, uh, rachel warmathcom, r, a, c, h, e, l, w, aa-t-h warmathcom. That go there. That's where the book's going to be available, starting today, today, if you're listening, watching on june 18th, it'll continue to be available after. But if you're somehow listening to this before we're putting it out, then it won't be there. That would be odd that you somehow stumbled upon. But well, you know why should they go there right now? What's?

Rachel Warmath: 43:16

Yep, so they can visit my website to learn more about the book. I've got some information there about why I wrote it and what you will gain and learn from reading it. Like Justin was talking about, it is you know my stories, but it's also an invitation to the reader to explore their own story, you know, to ask some of these deeper questions that help us know ourselves and trust ourselves more, and so it's an interactive experience through the book. And then, if you do purchase the book, you'll see an invitation to connect with me in another way through a monthly physical newsletter that I'm launching as well and that is called Move Right Heal, and it's just centered around this concept that's in the book about how there's this intersection between wellness and creativity and as we move our bodies and also do creative activities, we really amplify our healing journey, and so, all of that working together, it's kind of this space that I've been in just wanting to bring together, you know, mind, body and spirit all of it.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 44:31

So when you say physical newsletter you're going to like there's going to be like a CD or a USB stick that then I can put that into my computer and I can view the PDF.

Rachel Warmath: 44:44

Is that analog? So it's a printed. It's printed paper that you'll get in the mail delivered to your doorstep.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 44:53

So it's so. It's a a floppy disk or a magnetic tape, that it's a paper. What is paper with?

Rachel Warmath: 45:06

The inspiration there is. We're all sucked into this digital world all the time. We have so many emails that come through. Maybe we're on Substack, we're reading things left and right, but I don't know if you experience this. Sometimes it's easy to get distracted and not really finish what we're reading, not really dive into that in the mindful way that happens. When we have a book open before us or a magazine, you know something physical and tangible. So the idea is to engage in that reading and learning process every month. Right, and hopefully it's special, like it's this thing that arrives in the mail that you know is your reminder to like take some time for yourself, take some time away from the busyness of the world, take some time for yourself, take some time away from the busyness of the world and to stay connected with me and all the things that I'm here to teach and share.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 46:01

I love that because, yeah, I've been appreciating more, like you know, having some some analog stuff, like I've been reading the the dune books, like oh cool yeah, like I enjoyed the movies and I started getting into the books I'm on. I'm on the fifth, the fifth book, um, because the original author, he wrote six before he died and then his, his son, continued.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 46:22

There's like 18 more books that like his son did with like another author, oh yeah, it's a whole I don't know anything about that series, but yeah, that sounds incredible oh, yeah, it's, it's good and there's a lot of stuff in there where it's like talking about, you know, the dangers of technology and all sorts of things, where it's just like.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 46:43

It's like this guy was like predicting the future in some ways. Apparently he did a lot of psychedelics and I think it shows, but yeah, it's like I read I have, you know, paperback books and it's just so nice to just read those and get into it instead of having distractions and notifications if I was to try to do it on an electronic device. So I love that and I think we're going back to the future with all this stuff because, like vinyl's big. I think we're going back to the future with all this stuff because vinyl's big. I was able to get my dad a record player and a Creedence Clearwater Revival vinyl record for his birthday and I think it was like the best gift I think I've ever gotten him in my entire life.

Rachel Warmath: 47:28

That's so fun. Yeah, there's something to that, that vintage, you know that throwback kind of feeling it's nostalgic but it's also mind mindful in a way, because it's taking you into that present moment. Um, I feel like the pace of technology, whether I'm on my phone or the computer, can just be so fast where it's like you're bouncing between things but something that you're holding in your hands or, like you said, the record. You know you set the record carefully on the thing you start it.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 48:00

It's so different than you know yeah, and I think, um, it's important to be able to do different things, especially when working with, uh, compulsion addiction, because that is just the ultimate habit and it's getting out of that habit and into something else, because you really can't just stop doing something. You have to do something different, like we have to do something and in the absence, we'll just do what we've done. And so to have something different, like Rachel's book or her physical newsletter, is going to make it so much more easy, so much more enjoyable, because you're going to have something to fill up your life and your time. It's nourishing you instead of basically killing us and taking us away from who we are, what we're meant to do, what we're meant to enjoy. And yeah, I'm so, so, so excited for this book. I am like I only got to read a, the intro in the chapter, and I was like god damn it, you fucking.

Rachel Warmath: 49:01

What a, what a tease, what a fucking tease I know I know I was wrapping up the edit right as you asked for that sample and I'm like I'm not ready to send him the the darker parts, because there there is some darkness in the book and it's like I just want someone to be able to read, you know, start to finish all the way through that with the proper trigger warnings, and you know like be ready for it.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 49:25

So yeah, sometimes I find trigger warnings triggering. I yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about, um because I, I think there's a little bit sometimes of um, uh well, and I, especially when you're in these kinds of like mindful conscious communities where they're actually they're actually run by a lot of unconscious people, um yeah, a bypassing element right Of like.

Rachel Warmath: 49:52

okay, instead of being triggered, I'm just going to skip.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 49:55

Yeah, yeah, because I was just thinking it's like you're not meant to have your trauma. You're meant to heal your trauma, and if something like brings that pain up, it's again. It's like you want to sort of choose how you work it, but it's like it's going to get fucking worked.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 50:12

So you can't yeah, you can't just avoid it and you can't ask the world to change for you, you know, so it's you got to modulate somewhere in between. And when other people are just doing what they're doing, like and that bothers you, that's a you problem, that's not a the rest of the world. Like there's stuff that like um, I don't know, I I was.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 50:31

I was really thinking about how, especially with this election season, how when people hear news about you know they get so upset and it's just like, well, just stop following anybody that talks about. You know that, you know that, you know who I'm talking about. Guy comes up on the news, you change the channel, you know, and eventually you're that person's just not going to be an issue anymore because you know it's like probably you hear about this person all the time, like they're in your feed, they're in your news, they're in this other, and we all, you all know who I'm talking about. Right, everybody knows who I'm talking about, because everybody has that person that bothers them right um yeah so, but every like different people would be filling in the blank with whoever bothers them.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 51:15

It doesn't matter who's running for president. There's someone who hates one of those three fuckers, or all three of them yeah and they filled it in um, and I don't really care too much about any of them like yes, I will vote. I will go for the one that annoys me the least, but I don't need to share that here.

Rachel Warmath: 51:33

Um yeah, I think, as far as the book goes too, it's like, yeah, you want to give people tools and a framework and a reminder to use the book in a way that works for them, um, but ultimately, yeah, it's. It'll be very interesting to see what people's reactions are, and I know, know, you know, even just having family members read this like it feels very vulnerable, because these are experiences that I've had that maybe they'll have a different take on, or they just won't even have known that I went through some of this, you know. So it's like, oh, that's kind of a little bit scary to put that out there, but not a reason not to.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 52:12

I think I'm know I'm so happy you're putting it out there because, like I don't know, you have an amazing heart, you have such an ability to communicate and I know it's going to help you know lots of people to get into these um, challenging, like challenging aspects of life that they're there and they happen and there's nothing wrong with it, there's nothing to be ashamed of.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 52:37

And it's, like you know, bringing the light into the darkness, because I think we all have our, we all have our dark times, our dark thoughts. Like I was just thinking how much in life sometimes feels like, um, like charlie brown trying to kick the football from lucy and she would just, you know, pull, pull the. You know, this is like back in the era of the, of the vinyl records. Even in in, charlie Brown would take the run up to the football, try to kick it and she would take the football away at the very last minute and he would just stumble and hurt himself and he would get frustrated and she would just say like, oh no, this time, charlie Brown, I'm going to do it. And my, the dark thought I had recently was like charlotte brown should just tackle and just fucking have out lucy and just show her what's up and just play a different game that's a different version of the cartoon, I guess, but we all do have those moments, yeah, yeah, someone else doing that to us or us doing it to ourselves, you know.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 53:37

I mean, yeah, I think we're, we're all, we're all ultimately doing it to ourselves because you know, as we were mentioning earlier, you know when it was like it's so easy other people, because then we're not seeing our part in it when really we're, once you're an adult, it's like you're, you're choosing to continue what was put on you, like, yes, some shit was put on you against your will when you were younger, but once you're an adult it's fucking hard. But you, there are ways to shift. And I'm not saying it's easy, I'm not saying stuff's not stacked against people, but it becomes possible. And when you go like, oh, it's possible, I can do it, and I think that's what's awesome about your book is it's one of these like ways to show that it is possible, so much going for us and the things are so good that there's always problems, there's always challenges. And I love this kind of like showing, showing more sides of yourself, because we all have these sides and I'm so happy to know you and to get to know you even better.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 54:45

And I definitely recommend people go get the book today. Rachelwarmathcom check it out especially. You know, get the, get the real deal, the paper one rip out pages, write notes, highlight Any last words.

Rachel Warmath: 55:05

Rachel, just a thank you, you know.

Rachel Warmath: 55:08

Thank you for having me on the show, thank you for being an awesome friend and, you know, colleague over the years. I'm really grateful to have been able to work on your book as well. That's a book that's changed my life. Some of the writing prompts and just ideas you have in there, I think have a similar feel to some of what's in my book in the sense of it's something that's really helped me and transformed me and it's a fast way that could potentially, you know, help change someone else too. So I would just echo that, you know, back to you. Like, if anyone reading or anyone listening to this podcast hasn't yet read Justin's book, I highly recommend it and yeah, I think, just you know, keep owning your story Right, like both of us are examples of how you write a book and that's a huge step towards knowing your story and owning it and sharing it, and that's such a powerful place to be once you own it, you can, you can start actively writing it and not just be a a passive participant in a movie.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 56:15

You can be the author you are, whether you know it or not. It's just are you going to choose to radically shift up the story, have your own twists and turns, instead of just waiting and hoping something happens? So thank you so much. Great having you on. And yeah, uh, rachel warmathcom for the alive in the fire book, like check it, go get it right now, right now awesome.

Rachel Warmath: 56:41

Thank you guys thanks for that.

Justin Wenck, PhD: 56:44

Thank you so much and good day.