#148. How To Use Universal Fantasy To Write Better Books (& Sell More Copies) With Theodora Taylor

“Never wonder if readers will love your story again.” This is exactly what Theodora Taylor teaches you how to do in her book 7 FIGURE FICTION: How to Use Universal Fantasy to SELL Your Books to ANYONE.

Despite writing fiction in a niche genre (interracial romance), Theodora Taylor has grown a fanbase of rabid readers and fans through the power of something she calls Universal Fantasy—aka “the ingredients you need to write DELICIOUS stories!”

In this episode, Theodora Taylor shares how she discovered Universal Fantasy, and how she uses it to codify what works (or doesn’t work) in her own writing. She gives examples from popular books and movies, and even shares how you can use Universal Fantasy in your back cover copy, query letters, and more.

In the episode, you’ll hear us talk about things like:

• [04:52] How Theodora discovered Universal Fantasy in a Facebook ads class—and how this immediately resulted in an increase in book sales
• [09:05] How Universal Fantasy can be the missing link between your book and the right kind of readers who will love it just as much as you do
• [13:33] An example of a Universal Fantasy from Disney’s Beauty and the Beast (and also how this relates to the fixer-upper trope)
• [16:33] What Cinderella, Harry Potter, and Mark Watney have in common (spoiler alert: they’re all the same Universal Fantasy: the Suffering Cinderella!)
• [20:05] How Universal Fantasy can help you “butter up” your settings, characters, and dialogue—and write the most DELICIOUS stories possible
• [35:12] How Universal Fantasy can help you write your back cover copy, find accurate comp titles, and write query letters that agents will love

If you’ve ever wondered how some books feel like they’re made with magic (or some kind of special secret sauce), you’re going to love this episode with Theodora Taylor!

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🔗 Links mentioned in this episode:

• Theodora Taylor’s Website
• 7 FIGURE FICTION: How to Use Universal Fantasy to SELL Your Books to ANYONE by Theodora Taylor
• Theodora Taylor’s Fiction

Click here to pre-order a copy of my brand-new book, The Story Grid Masterwork Analysis Guide to Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, and get a handful of extra-special pre-order bonuses for free!

👉 Looking for a transcript? If you’re listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, scroll down below the episode player until you see the transcript.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:51

Sometimes writers get very caught up in the character and they're just kind of like well, I want to suffer in Cinderella, but I don't want her to suffer too much. Right, I don't want to link suffering on her. And it's just kind of like you want the audience to feel sorry for you. And I think, especially with writers, we're just saying oh, we don't want the audience to dislike her. You're going to have to be OK with the audience disliking your courage to make bad decisions.

Speaker 2: 1:21

Welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast. My name is Savannah Gilbo and I'm here to help you write a story that works. I want to prove to you that writing a novel doesn't have to be overwhelming. So each week, I'll bring you a brand new episode with simple, actionable and step-by-step strategies that you can implement in your writing right away. So each week, I'll bring you a brand new episode with simple, actionable and step-by-step strategies that you can implement in your writing right away. So, whether you're brand new to writing or more of a seasoned author looking to improve your craft, this podcast is for you. So pick up a pen and let's get started.

Speaker 2: 1:49

In today's episode, I'm sharing a conversation I had with Theodora Taylor, the author of seven-figure fiction how to Use Universal Fantasy to Sell your Books to Anyone. Now, despite writing fiction in a niche genre interracial romance Theodora Taylor has grown a fan base of rabid readers and fans through the power of universal fantasy, and I can't wait for you to hear her talk about what that is. I like to describe universal fantasy as the thing that makes you, the reader, feel special when you're reading a book. It's what makes the characters in a book usually the protagonist feel special or super relatable, and then, as the reader, you feel special and relatable by proxy. So it's essentially magic, and I think you're going to love this episode, especially because Theodora talks about how she's essentially been. And I think you're going to love this episode Especially because Theodora talks about how she's essentially been able to codify what works in her own writing so she can tell whether her own writing works or doesn't work, and she's figured out a way to explain how all of us writers can use the same lens to look at our own work.

Speaker 2: 2:51

Plus, of course, we talk about universal fantasy and what Theodora calls adding butter to your stories. I won't spoil the details for you, but essentially think about how butter makes almost any cooked meal taste better. It's like that for your story and you're going to love it. She also walks us through some examples of universal fantasy and shares her thoughts on how you can use universal fantasy to write books that readers love. So, without further ado, let's jump right into my conversation with Theodora Taylor. Hi, theodora, welcome to the Fiction Writing Made Easy podcast. Oh hi, thank you so much for having me. Sure, I'm so excited you're here today. I'm obsessed with your books. I'm a big fan. But before we get into, kind of, the details about those books and all the questions I have for you, would you mind introducing yourself to listeners in your own words?

Speaker 1: 3:43

Okay, sure, my name is Theodore Taylor. I am what I call myself a chaotic writer, but despite being completely chaotic, maybe not always doing the business things that I should do, taking the really great administrative advice that I should take, it took me from being a five-figure writer to a six-figure writer, and having a seven-figure backlist has made me the breadwinner for my family, Wow Five, who I happily support on my backlist earning. And luckily I was able to I guess you could call it concentrate concentrate all of this advice about universal fantasy into a bestselling book. And now I also have a course and I really really feel so blessed because I love talking about universal fantasy and you know, I think, most importantly, what makes Dory entertaining, how to connect with audiences more powerfully through the written word and into a story. And so that's me.

Speaker 2: 5:08

Yeah, that's you. I would like let's pause for a second, because all that's amazing. But my audience, my listeners they are a lot of them are perfectionists, so they're going to love that. You said you're chaotic, you don't always do the things you're supposed to do, and look at this success you've had yeah, that's fantastic. And you know, I always say too, because I'm similar in the sense that I know there's all these things I could be doing, should be doing, but there's only so much time in the day and we need to save our creative brains too. So you know, there's, there's. I think you're a great example of you don't have to have everything perfect to have great success, which I love Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 5:42

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 5:43

Yeah. So take me back in time to cause I in your book. You talk about, in your book, seven figure fiction. You talk about when you'd kind of you had a kind of a failed launch or a failed something Right, and then that led you down this quest of like what? What is the secret to making these books work? What do I like about books? And then you discovered the universal fantasy.

Speaker 1: 6:06

It was almost it was actually the opposite where I had a book and I didn't put a lot of thought into writing that. It was just kind of a challenge book for me and I wrote it in December while I was on a road trip. It was a little novel called Hispertin Baby. I really loved it, but you know it was done by January but it was written like within a month period. I threw it up on Amazon with maybe like three, maybe three or four days of notice that this is coming and it went to the Amazon top 100. And it was a very. It was and that was my first Top 100 bestseller and it was a really frustrating experience for me because I had had flops before that but I didn't understand why this book did what it did.

Speaker 1: 7:14

So after that I kind of had this frustrating sensation where I'd write a lot of books. Some books would go to the top 100. In some books I would be writing them. I'd be like there's something wrong with this book. I think all of us have been there as writers. We're just like I don't know what it is, but there's something wrong with this book. I don't know what it is, but there's something wrong with this book and you know I'd get through it. I'd kind of knuckle through the writing of it. I'd launch it and sure enough it didn't do that grid of numbers, or in some cases it would completely flop, and I wouldn't know why. I wouldn't know why the things that didn't do well didn't do well, and I didn't know why the things that didn't do well didn't do well, and I didn't know why the things that did well did well, right, and how frustrating.

Speaker 2: 8:00

Because, like you said, I spent two months kind of creating that one book that did really well and it was, you know, I don't want to say thrown together, because I know you take care of your stuff, but it, relatively, compared to the other ones, it was thrown together pretty quick, right. And so you put it up and you're like, okay, that one did well, it's not what I expected. And then something that you put maybe more time and energy into doesn't, and you're like, okay, great, great sauce here.

Speaker 1: 8:24

Really hard to write yeah, and you do your absolute best with it, and it would be like cricket.

Speaker 2: 8:31

Yeah, frustrating.

Speaker 1: 8:33

Or people wouldn't respect, like I, yeah, frustrating, getting all the words in the right places, beautiful structure, and you put it out and you're just like, oh, that didn't felt. But then you know, with in the case of his pretend baby, where it's more of an inspired, but oh, I have an idea, okay, I'll quickly write it, see how quickly I can write this book package. It put it together, see, it does, and that goes to the top 100. So I then, you know, so this problem would kind of come on and off where I just kind of be like, oh, I don't know why this sold and why this didn't sell. And then I got really lucky and I took Sky Warren's Facebook class. Right now I think she's running a direct sales ad, that is, a sales class that will directly tie into the Facebook ads. I took her Facebook class and she led us through how to set up an ad, and one of the things I kind of realized is also we probably should preface this with I write in a genre called interracial romance, so all of my heroines are women of color, and so usually my advertising before I took this Facebook ads class was like hey, I write women of color romance, you're my audience. So here's a woman of color romance. We both want the same theme, right, opportunity, and I'm my book. Yeah, by my book it's a woman of color opposite the track. Yeah, so that was the thing of my advertising know-how, and so when I took the class she was just kind of like, well, you know, you have to target an audience, you have to do this, but I couldn't target my specific audience. I think it's even more so now, like back then, you couldn't just say, oh, black woman who liked interracial romance.

Speaker 1: 10:47

So I kind of realized that I needed to target audiences who are outside of what you would typically think of the reader of an interracial romance. And so I took one of my books that had done really, really well, despite everything, like you had tear cover when it came out. It was really, it was a bizarre setup. And so I was just like, why did people enjoy this? And I realized at that point that there were a few reasons that people were really enjoying that book and I advertised on those reasons and, lo and behold, that was my first successful Facebook ad campaign. That's amazing, right.

Speaker 1: 11:30

So then I got to thinking more and more about that concept, to thinking more and more about that concept and I started noticing, when I looked at things, that there were certain fantasies, certain reasons to enjoy your book that were obvious. So I would put it in my blurb. Like you know, make sure I have all those universal fantasies, all those reasons that people will enjoy in that book. Make sure that's in your blurb, make sure it's in your advertising, make sure it's in your first few pages, like your first, your first right. Make sure that people, like you know, have a reason to be engaged with your characters, entertained by your, that you're not being boring.

Speaker 1: 12:15

And so when friends would come and say, well, you know, especially friends within my same genre oh, do you have any advice about that? My book isn't selling, and here's the blurb. And I would always be able to say, oh well, you know, maybe make sure that they know this or advertise on this, and so that kind of blew up and I had a talk and the talk just was really in demand.

Speaker 2: 12:45

But then I was just like, well, I need to write and you, I'll write a book yeah, there's I I can't remember if it's in your book or if I heard you talk about this somewhere, but you talk about watching cooking shows and how this is how you called the, the, what you talk about in your book butter. Do you want to talk about that? Because I think it's so cool and it's gonna it's gonna make sense with a lot of people okay.

Speaker 1: 13:08

So I was watching a cooking show and I was first shocked was the julia child, then she's, and she's making something and she just has what I can only describe as a huge bowl of butter. Yeah, Just like. Oh, is she making several different dishes? And no, she pours, like these, just things of butter into the dish and you realize, oh, wow, there's just a lot of butter. Yeah, Way more butter than you would ever think of in dishes. And I hadn't really watched cooking shows before that. But it's one of the things that if you watch cooking shows now you'll notice.

Speaker 2: 13:53

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 13:53

A lot of butter in cooking and so I always say, you know, just really pour butter onto your writing, like pour the reasons people enjoy it onto your writing.

Speaker 2: 14:06

Yeah, probably more than you think you need, kind of like butter, and so that's kind of how you describe these universal fantasies. The shorthand for them is like more butter. These are butter for your recipe of your book, and so can you give us some examples of like what are some universal fantasies?

Speaker 1: 14:25

So in the book, my favorite universal fantasy, what I would call my patron saint of story, is Beauty and the Beast and I's and I always say that what makes Universal Fantasy different from trope. Trope is what it is, so trope is Beauty and the Beast, and Beauty and the Beast is a very popular trope with romance writers. It's so popular that the trope is named after Beauty and the Beast, and fantasy is what makes that trope taste good. So when we talk about Beauty and the Beast, that fantasy is what makes that trunk taste good. So when we talk about Beauty and the Beast, you're going to want a fit surfer.

Speaker 1: 15:01

So that's a beast kind of character. Where that character is fit, you're going to get an after picture. If you have a beast at the beginning, you're going to have a prince at the end, you have a selfish beast at the beginning, you're going to have a prince at the end. Your selfish beast at the beginning, wonderful prince who will do anything for you, including sacrifice his own well-being in order to make you happy. So you have that fixer-upper before and after picture which is just highly appealing. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 15:35

And that gives you. It's like the feeling and that emotion. It's what grabs you underneath the what. So it's that why that emotion underneath the what. And it's also more than just the, the makeover or the surface level, like the beast to beauty right or beast to prince. It's kind of how, that relationship, how the beauty sees that person for more than they are, right.

Speaker 1: 15:57

Yeah, or being really seen for who you are, or getting the chance to be who you really are inside. My friend, inez Johnson, has a really wonderful take on it called the hidden identity trip. She in that's when you have a hidden identity, someone who really are inside, or and show like you're a hero inside, but maybe, um, love or the situation uncovers who you are, who you really are. It's kind of I'd holland, kind of share becoming share butter, which is like, oh, this person looked like this at the beginning of the movie, but really they're this and by the end of the movie they get to be that right it kind of helps you express the best version of yourself, which is that emotional hook for readers.

Speaker 2: 16:48

Who doesn't want to be that right or who doesn't want to be the one helping someone become the best version?

Speaker 1: 16:53

I mean it goes in different ways yes, and you know there's another um universal fantasy that Beauty and the Beast has, which is a wound healed by love. Like either you're the sunshine healing that grumpy person's wound or, in this case, beauty, by loving the Beast and seeing him for who he really is, heals the wound inside of them, heals them of selfishness right, yeah, and you use in the book.

Speaker 2: 17:22

You use other fairy tale examples, which I love, so you use cinderella too. Uh, what's one from that story?

Speaker 1: 17:29

oh, suffering cinderella. It's one of my favorites in universal fantasy. Yeah, you know it works in several different levels because it's when we see a suffering cinderella, especially in story. We want that suffering cinderella to be rewarded if she persists. If she, we want her to stop suffering and we love when her suffering is healed by love. We love when her suffering is healed by her, like getting what she wants. So suffering cinderellas are great and, yeah, especially in romance but especially in romance.

Speaker 2: 18:05

But it works in other genres too, right, any of these, even though they kind of feel romance planted. Harry potter's a suffering cinderella right, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 18:15

I call the Martian one of my favorite suffering people. Yeah, Linnium, I just finished watching Fallout. It's funny. I have a subsect I'm about to put out on the Fallout situation.

Speaker 1: 18:31

I love it it's called Reverse Fixer Upper, where she looks perfect and shiny at the beginning Right, she needs to get dirty that way. Right, she needs to kind of fit in this world, get some grit and stuff like that. But also we. The first episode and this isn't that much of a spoiler is that having her become a suffering Cinderella kind of like, as we watch Cinderella lose her father Right, this person loses her father, loses her community Right, it loses what it loses her previous life. Now she is a suffering Cinderella, right. So you see her, and so we're immediately invested in the main character, fallout, because we want to see her achieve her goals. We want to see her suffering.

Speaker 2: 19:26

Yeah, and that's such an interesting example because in a way it's like yes to all those things. But also we know she has to, like you said, get a little dirty, get a little beat up by the world and we root for her to get through that and succeed, because she's that. You know, that Cinderella, or that you know reverse fixer upper Right.

Speaker 1: 19:46

I think that's fantasy. Yeah, I think, especially in real life, women will work very, very hard and thanklessly, and so there's something so lovely about knowing that. Oh, you know what, if this princess prism, yeah, he will be rewarded in the end with some kind of reward well, you know, it won't always in romance, it's a very it's going to very clearly be the prince, the love that she deserves, right, and you know she's going to be ripped by the end or something like that. Yeah, in other genres the reward comes in different forms. It forms it can be the truth, it can be in the case of the Martian he gets that earth. Yeah, survival by Persephone he's rewarded with being reunited with.

Speaker 2: 20:41

Earth. No, it's great, it's so fun. My brain's buzzing with like a bunch of different examples too, and it sounds like so far the ones we went through are kind of more character slanted or situationally slanted. But I heard you talk on some other podcast about you can even use this in your settings, and the example you used was a discovery of witches. You talked about how, like the, she has butter in her settings and I was like she totally does.

Speaker 1: 21:07

She does. Her libraries are just gorgeous butter Like. One of the things that's kind of interesting about discovery of witches is that the libraries get more and more intricate. At first, I think, you're introduced to the Oxford Library and then spoiler alert you go back in time. Then you get to other libraries and every book has, I want to say, at least two or three libraries. Yeah, ooh, we're about to be introduced to a library. These libraries have secret scrolls and things like libraries. Yeah, ooh, we're about to be introduced to a library. These libraries have secret scrolls and things like that. Yeah, well, I think, especially if you're a reader, the discovery of a library it's really, really. She works that better in.

Speaker 1: 21:49

Like what we love about libraries. We like oh, this library has a special collection. Yes, a secret hallway. Yeah, and getting to. I really love, love, loved all of um, the history lessons. One of the things that kind of lives in my mind rent-free is the description of the castle. It's just like, oh, if he gets to actually go live in a castle, right, and it's told that, oh, all castles have rat. You know, like all these details about the castle.

Speaker 2: 22:26

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:27

Without us actually having to go back in time and suffer the wrath. Yeah, no, thank you. The rest, yeah no, thank you.

Speaker 2: 22:32

Yeah, oh, thank you. But yeah, and you talked about the capital. Yes, we love hearing about it and it kind of makes her that princess in a way. But you talked about in discovery, which is how, like, yes, there are secrets and that is a form of universal fantasy or butter right, yeah, but also the library makes her like she's that special one that can unlock the secret oh, yeah, that's what.

Speaker 1: 22:57

He's the only one who can get this book, but yeah, well, it could pick out this book. You are special, you are yeah yeah, so it's, it's, I'm, I'm.

Speaker 2: 23:05

The way my brain works now is I'm like this is so cool because we can make our settings have butter but also unlock butter situations or universal fantasy situations.

Speaker 1: 23:15

So it's really, really cool. I will admit, the reason I probably bring up settings so much is because I'm terrible at settings, but location butter is really amazing. I love when a writer can really let us in on a location, unlock a location. There are a few writers who are just particularly good at setting and using their setting as part of the book with setting butter, but I absolutely suggest looking at that from now on, like, how do authors and storytellers use their setting?

Speaker 2: 23:49

Yeah, the other thing I'm thinking, as you're talking about butter and like settings and characters, is this could totally be used all the way down to the dialogue level. Like I'm thinking of there's a scene in addy larue by ve schwab where addy's talking to the, the um, I'm trying not to spoil anything basically the other character who's causing a lot of conflict in her life and he's kind of kind of swoon worthy in a way, but he's also supposed to be evil, and the tension I think comes from a lot of these like butter setups, like she's special and to him and that comes out in their conversation. He's got secrets from her. I'm thinking of, like I'm just looking, I have a list of other butter things. Right, the bully really likes you that's another one you say and kind of the bully abuse of power sometimes that that comes out on the dialogue level. So it's like you can have these big universal fantasies in your story, in your setting, in your characters, these big things and even in the situations of your dialogue.

Speaker 1: 24:52

Oh yeah absolutely your situation. Your dialogue With the bully really likes you. I really love that first introduction when it really seemed like this person does not like you. In my course I used the example of a court of thorns and roses when we're first introduced to the priest, or tamlin, tamlin, and you know it comes in as this beast and yeah, you do this, yeah, yeah he's killing my friend yeah, right, and we're just up and and there's a lot of resemblance with that great first scene where Beast comes in when she's trying to talk to her father.

Speaker 1: 25:37

She's like I'll be able to see you. And he's like, yeah, I'm doing here. Yeah, that he did something you know and you negotiate, ok, I'll go with you, I'll go with you. Okay, I'll go with you, I'll go with you. And it's like, oh, how, because he they're doing such a great job of hating on this character, like how, how much are we going to swoon? When later on it's like, no, no, no, I really yeah, you're the one that's melting my heart.

Speaker 2: 26:06

Yeah, exactly, and it's. It's funny. I was explaining your universal fantasies to a writer I was working with and I was like, you know, it's kind of a way not only to make your character feel special, but to make the reader feel special by proxy. And when I think about all these things, I'm like that's what I feel when I read a book with these universal fantasies Like I'm feeling special, I'm feeling hopeful, I'm feeling like I can be this person, which is such a thing we want when reading fiction.

Speaker 1: 26:34

Right, right, I think there's a reason that the first person point of view has become so popular and a lot of books. It's interesting. It's first person to the point that you don't get the other person's point of view at all. I don't think it's a person to the point of it, to the point that you don't get the other person's point of view at all. I don't think a double point I and I love it. I personally prefer when you get both characters points of view. But there is something about being fully immersed in a quarter of thorns of roses. Is her point of view and kind of being able to experience that just through her eyes. It's like oh, no, no, no, and feel her fear. And it's very much, I think with the video, with the rise of the video game also rise of first-person point of view where it's just kind of like, oh, we're falling in love with this person, they're falling in love with us and just completely.

Speaker 2: 27:32

Complete immersion. Yeah, I love it. And so, speaking of things that you write and read, do you find that you write the same butter into your story that you like to read, or is it different?

Speaker 1: 27:43

Usually it's different. I usually like if I'm writing the same. So when I read I want to take time off. So I usually don't read within as many genres. Like I tend to read five, five. I read. I'm very on record for just adoring male, male, we do love it, oh god. And, and you know, story why-wise, I usually listen Like I'll watch romantic comedies. I don't really write a lot of romantic comedy In comedy I tend to really like it or I'm attracted to usually something that I'm not doing. But that's just me as a writer, which is why I'm always just kind of like for this, for universal fantasy. A lot of times you have to turn off your writer. So, yeah, usually I usually, even if I don't like it, I'm just like oh, this is really popular. Yeah, like it is almost. Like it's very hard for me not to like things that are popular because I'm just like well, I would like to figure out why this is yeah, which okay.

Speaker 2: 29:06

So, speaking of that, if I'm a listener and I'm like this is fascinating, how do I even, besides, let's say, they get your book and they read it, how do they start identifying the universal fantasies or the butter that they like in books?

Speaker 1: 29:20

Oh, I love everybody. I think everybody should have Evernote on their phone, Evernote, whatever they want to keep. I suggest Evernote because it's like the one thing you can carry with you and after you watch something I just did this with, like Fallout, my husband Berkeley just came up and we went to see all that, the Fallout, and it's just kind of wise and he really, really enjoyed it and afterwards he kind of knows that if you really enjoy a film, you're gonna have to like what did you enjoy?

Speaker 2: 29:56

what's the set?

Speaker 1: 29:57

he's gonna need to download that for you yes, and for me, I immediately afterwards wish it kind of like guy who ghosted you is really sorry, really regret. Yeah, we like that setup, need to get you back right. Yeah, you know, especially for men, the idea of and this, this happens within the first five minutes of the movie. It starts with him breaking like every bone in his back, including his back, and then the rest of the movie he just kind kind of he takes 18 months to heal by the way, this does not work in real life, but I think that was the male fantasy in it and then he gets back up, rebounding, yes, and they talk about it all the time. It's like, you know, oh, you get, you got backed up. You fell, you fall, but you get backed up. You fall, but you get backed up. You got backed up, you fell, you fall, but you get backed up. You fall, but you get backed up. And there's this fantasy that, oh, if we bring every bone in our body and you know, we take 18 months to heal.

Speaker 2: 30:59

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 31:02

We're resilient and we're going to get back the life that was taken from us when this accident happened. So I think that universal fantasy happening. But I'm always just kind of like, if you go see a movie, like afterwards just take a moment and say, hey, what do I remember liking in this movie? What can label it? Like, for example, that ghost that you regret you know, label everything you liked about it. And when you're watching television and this, in my opinion, makes television more interesting instead of double screaming just really kind of catalog to yourself as you're watching oh, this is making me feel something. Why is this making me feel something? Oh, it's making me feel something because I really want her to. For example, in um fallout I came up with the reverse fixer upper because at one point she's just really clinging to her old attitude.

Speaker 1: 32:06

Yeah, I'm frustrated, I'm angry right now. Yeah, it's like oh, you know what? This is it. This is reverse fixer-upper. I want her to figure this world out. She's not in this clean boat anymore. I want her to get with the program. I want her to get smart. I want her to figure it out. I want to reverse fix her up.

Speaker 2: 32:28

Yeah, and I like that. You just said it was kind of frustrating you because it's it's a lot about the things and to say and this is, and this is hard to explain as a writer, as a writer.

Speaker 1: 32:58

But sometimes writers get very caught up in the character and they're just kind of like well, I want to suffer in cinderella, but I don't want her to suffer too much, right, I don't want to link suffering on her, and it's just kind of like oh hey, you want the audience to feel sorry for you, right that?

Speaker 1: 33:15

needs to suffer yes, and you want the audience and I think especially with um writers, we're just saying, oh, we don't want the audience to dislike her, and it's just kind of like in this moment you want the audience to dislike her. That's okay Hard for writers to grasp. Sometimes, when I work with my students a lot of times sometimes it's just like you're going to have to be okay with the audience disliking her or her making that decision. A really great example of that that I suggest everybody watch is like Baby Red and Deer.

Speaker 1: 33:52

Yeah, it's kind of like the courage to make bad decisions, not have your character make bad decisions. Right, it helps that this is kind of based on a real story, but what really appeals to people is a sitting for at least for the first four episodes before there's a big reveal where we're just like for the first four episodes before there's a big reveal where we're just like don't do that, why are you doing this? Why are you doing the opposite of what I would do? Right, you're so frustrated, and so when you get the big reveal, it's so hard because you were frustrated with that character. And it's funny that the character and the person who it was based on is a comedian, a kind of shot comedian, because it's just kind of like it's very hard for writers to do that. Yeah, I'm going to make you so frustrated with this person and you're going to have to trust that your audience will hang in there, right, because they want to see this person make good decisions.

Speaker 2: 34:54

They want, right, but that is very next level, right that's a great example too, because we watched that and we were frustrated for the first couple episodes too, and I think they pushed it to the last second where they might have started losing people and then, like you said, that big reveal. Yeah, I remember when we were watching it and we're not going to spoil it, but we were watching it and I almost my instinct was like I need to pause this and think about what I just experienced, because it was kind of a gut punch and you're like, oh, totally just judge this guy, for you know making these dumb mistakes, but it was really good. So, yeah, definitely worth the exercise of watching that. It was also a good show. If I'm hearing you, it's like think about why you're having these emotions.

Speaker 2: 35:38

Write down like a little description. And probably for all the perfectionists out there, don't worry about getting the perfect description. Just write down what makes sense to you. And then, of course, get Theodora's book and maybe even take her course. They're wonderful. And then, of course, get Theodora's book and maybe even take her course. They're wonderful. But you talked to just real quick, before we go, you talk about using this stuff in your blurb and, like you told us earlier how that made of a difference in your Facebook ad. But what about for people who are querying or writing those back cover copies Like? Can you give us an example of how that would work?

Speaker 1: 36:18

So I haven't queried in forever. What about back cover copies like can you give us an example of how that would work? So I haven't queried in forever, but a back cover copy and but back cover copy. It's funny because I do have a short blurb course.

Speaker 1: 36:25

That's like no, I I'm always just like 50 bucks and it will we'll put a link to that for listeners too, but basically for me as a chaotic writer, I will sometimes advertise the book Sometimes, but sometimes I'm on a pre-order deadline for something else. So I always think of the blurb as my most important thing, because maybe I'm going to support this book, maybe I won't, but you need to leave something behind that will be like oh, when this book goes out to meet other people behind your back, it will shake their hand and it will say buy me. And so I always say that's why it's really important to identify the reasons people will enjoy your book. And so it's basically writing the blurb toward this is why people enjoy this book and this is why people you will enjoy this book.

Speaker 1: 37:20

And writing the blurb around those reasons not just saying well, this is a book where the lovers meet and they fall in love and they live happily ever after Exactly they tell you that you're going to play the book, but if the lovers meet and this is the book where she's in some kind of suffering Cinderella situation, so she is, let's just go with one, we'll go with Fourthly, which I think. Yeah, there you go. It's so terrific. I break it down for the class A class. So we have a situation where it's just like she was planning this life and I call this the plan interrupted, which is great. It's a great universal fantasy where someone else's plan has a perfect plan, works for it. This is also universal fantasy where your plan, someone else's plan has a perfect plan, works for this is also universal universal fantasy that powers them legally blonde. Um, no one has a plan, someone else disrupts it and it's just like, oh no, this person was planning on becoming what is basically a librarian, but her mom, right, like hey, no, you going to have to become a dragon rider. And everybody, not only is she, and this is, she might die, she might die, and it's kind of like, well, I guess, wow, that's horrible. She's been cool.

Speaker 1: 38:58

We're really engaged with the character because she had a plan and her plan was interrupted. She was pulled out of her life. She's really fragile. We feel bad for her. And we feel bad for her because she's really fragile and we don't know if she's going to survive. Yeah Well, the book. Right, you will. And is that guy who wants to kill her, that ruthless, powerful guy, warrior? Does he really want to kill her? Does he like her? Right, we're going to have to read the book in order to find out all of this.

Speaker 1: 39:32

I always say say you know the butter, and fourth wing is rival families underdog. Will she survive this or will she die? So write the blurb around that if he had these things in the blurb, I wouldn't have picked this right out of curiosity, it would have. Just, I doubt a lot of people would have picked this up Right Out of curiosity. It would have. Just, I doubt a lot of people would have picked it up if the blurb hadn't been as terrific as it is. And I love the example of the fourth-wing blurb because that's a good example of the author. I think she was a women's fiction author first and then she came into a new space with this and it had a terrific blurb. It had everything that you're kind of interested in about the book. All the reasons you're going to enjoy the book are in that blurb. So I would say for blurbs, first of all figure out why you're going to enjoy the book and then put it into the blurb and make sure the blurb revolves around that.

Speaker 2: 40:36

Yeah, I think that's great advice, and I think in your book you even mentioned something about identify the universal fantasies in your comps and you can speak to that. If, like, let's say, the comp isn't the most perfect fit in a query, you could speak to the universal fantasy as a way to connect your book to that. So, yeah, that's a great stuff a lot of a lot.

Speaker 1: 40:57

That's absolutely people. I think that look at their better sponsors to better comps a lot more, especially if you're struggling with the concept, because a lot of people are just like well, I know what I like in other people's books. I can't tell you how many times I get this right. Yeah, no, I like in other people's books. I can't tell you how many times I get this yeah, I know what I like in other people's books, but I can't figure out what I like in mine. And then it's just a well, look at your butter comps. Then Right Comps. Then what do you like about that other person's book? Is it in yours, is it?

Speaker 2: 41:30

if so, like you know, make sure to put that in your book. Yeah, Make sure to highlight that because it's going to set like example fourth wing. It's going to set that apart from another book where a girl learns to ride dragons and has to fight, Right? Yes, yeah, it's not. And this is kind of the cool thing because everyone's like my book is not necessarily like a whole new concept. Most books are not. They're like rearranged in unique ways but the concepts aren't really new and so the butter is a way to like highlight hey, I've got something special or I've got that thing you want in that genre, you want where other blurbs and things might just read this is what happens and you know, just simple. So I think it's very cool just simple.

Speaker 1: 42:14

so I think it's very cool, yes, and it's good to know it's it's. It's funny. I think about everything all at once all the time, because it's just kind of like. That's a very good example of what you're saying. Yeah, where it like, even if it look like it's just completely brand new, like that whole thing runs on very old things Right, like seeing your mother-daughter relationship, right, and you know, can this marriage be saved? And it's a really great way to say sometimes, when things are really really different, to just figure out, like, is it different? Yeah, what's actually going on here, what makes it different? And it's often that the things that are, like most quote unquote different actually are old stories with a kind of different unrelated.

Speaker 1: 43:01

Like oh now we have, like this Asian family Would it normally be an Asian family in this struggle story and we're going to add, you know, some food. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 43:11

It's the same. It's food, yeah. Yeah, it's the same. It's universal, but it's different.

Speaker 1: 43:15

It's upgraded and made new, which is really cool right, but it's always something universal and a good story yes, definitely.

Speaker 2: 43:22

so where can people find you around the internet? I will put links in the show notes, but where's the primary spot to grab to find your fictioncom?

Speaker 1: 43:30

I try to make it very easy yeah, awesome.

Speaker 2: 43:34

Well, any last parting words of wisdom before I let you go. Yeah, you're like just go read the book and find I know I'm a better writer than I have a speaker.

Speaker 2: 43:42

I'm sure many listeners can relate to that. They're like, yes, we prefer pen and paper over speaking. Yes, well, at least just go read the book. The book is super fascinating, so we are going to link to all that in the show notes, as well as your course and all that fun stuff. But thank you so much for being here. I could talk to you for hours about universal fantasy and taking apart our favorite movies, so I just hope you take your time. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 44:08

So that's it for today's episode. As always, thank you so much for tuning in and for showing your support. If you want to check out any of the links I mentioned in this episode, you can find them in the show notes listed in the description of each episode, inside your podcast player or at savannahgilbocom forward slash podcast. If you're an Apple user, I'd really appreciate it if you took a few seconds to leave a rating and a review. Your ratings and reviews tell Apple that this is a podcast that's worth listening to and, in turn, your reviews will help this podcast get in front of more fiction writers just like you. And while you're there, go ahead and hit that follow button, because there's going to be another brand new episode next week, full of actionable tips, tools and strategies to help you become a better writer. So I'll see you next week and, until then, happy writing.