Career Pathways and Cooperative Education - Adventures in Advising

Jim Fasulo, academic advisor for healthcare and emergency professions pathways at Portland Community College discusses working with students in finding career pathways, the importance of career and technical education, and how cooperative education assists students with learning valuable skills.

Read Jim's story in the NACADA Pocket Guide, Advising is Forever: Sharing Stories to Ignite (or Reignite) Your Advising Spirit!

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Transcript

Matt Markin  
Hey there, and welcome to the Adventures in Advising podcast. This is Matt Markin, and this podcast has returned back from our short summer break, and today's guest, let's welcome and that's Jim Fasulo, longtime educator who has worked in higher education for the last 20 plus years. Jim began as a volunteer tutor in the GED program, where he discovered his niche working with non traditional age students in community colleges. Jim has worked as an English tutor from 2000-2006 and an academic advisor from 2006 to present for Portland Community College. For the last four and a half years, Jim's precise role as an academic advisor has been advising students in the health care and emergency professions pathway, specifically majors that include exercise science, medical assisting and nursing, among others, Jim earned his BA in English from Villanova University and his MS in Educational Policy and Leadership from Portland State University. Jim lives in the Portland, Oregon area with his wife Nancy and their dog olive. Jim is also a longtime listener of the adventures in advising podcast. Jim, welcome. 

Jim Fasulo  
Hey, Matt. Good to be here. Thank you. 

Matt Markin  
Jim, as a longtime listener of the pod, you already know the first question I'm going to ask, and let's hear about your journey in higher ed.

Jim Fasulo  
You bet. Well, yeah, you got the, you got the the brief, the toned down version there. I think that that was the mid 90s when and when I was I was volunteering. And then here was the it was the beginning of it. You know, we had dial up internet. Everyone's computer was used aol.com and I typed in volunteering Portland education. So that led me to the GED, GED tutoring. I just, I took to it. Now I could, I just, I didn't have that experience as an undergraduate at all, or right after school. So I just kept doing it, which developed into me looking for other roles. I found one as a tutor. Did that for a number of years and only part time. And someone had suggested, when I interviewed for a position at the college, a dean suggested to me, Well, I'm looking at your resume. Looks like you're I'm looking at what you've done here in your background, I think you could be a good advisor. And I thought, she said, Have you ever thought about that? And I said, well, not until you've mentioned it. She then says, this was the ultimate connector. Well, there's a training coming up in a couple of weeks. Are you interested? And I said, of course, because I was interested in any work. So that was, that was a substantial moment. Yeah, that was 2005 2006 so I started working. I'm sure a lot of us have that, have that experience where we really like something, and we have the, there's an intuition in us. This is what I want to do. Okay, well, I didn't have enough. I mean, I guess I had, maybe I had an advisor. I didn't have any interaction like that. I just knew that I liked it. I had a number of temporary positions, and I mean, I that helped me get experience. Then I went back to school, Portland State University, very instrumental, because I learned some of the language of higher ed and how and a number of things that have helped me understand processes that I'm doing more deeply. So eventually, yeah, in 2010 I landed a permanent job in 2020 21 then we so I landed a permanent job as a full time advisor in 2021 we've moved over to the pathway advising model, right? Has been very substantial move when focusing on one group of students, there's the opportunity to develop expertise. I was thinking about this when I was looking at some students before I is that, and this will make sense to you, Matt, what I've become very astute at is the the journey to get to state, you know, the first year of nurse, the journey there what? What are all the things that state needs to do? Thus, when I want to help a number of students over the course of the day, I it's all focused around the health care and I and I don't feel lost, right where I know that before, when it wasn't, there wasn't the structure I would feel, you know, turned around, yeah, over the course of the day, that's where I am now, and I've been enjoying it. I've been enjoying working with faculty in the health professions more. They really have taught me a lot, and we're doing this, this is a great opportunity to engage with you and other advisors. 

Matt Markin  
That's exactly what this podcast is about. And I guess going along those lines, Jim, let's ask you another question, and what's your advisor practice like working with students and and how has your training and development been like?

Jim Fasulo  
This is, this is very elementary thing. What I'm about to say when I talk to students, because I took a one day training and motivational interviewing, right? That shaped me very much counseling technique, I'll say. I'll try to get them in the beginning of the session, session, I'll say, you know, it's so nice to be here with you, as I understand it. This is the first time we're interacting. Can you talk to me about your goals and what's bringing you here today by saying it in an open ended way that Matt, they're going to talk to me for five or 10 minutes and they're going to give me 90% of the information I would want this. This is another good way thing to point out. I was in the library one day and I discovered, this is before I took that class. I discovered a book on motivational interviewing. It was very academic and dense, like three to 500 pages. My first thought was, oh, well, that's probably not accessible to me, because that's, you know, super smarty counselor kind of thing. And it was, it was the full blown academic piece. So then I had the training one day. There's more to it than that. Even, I think I was able to employ various parts of it, like the open ended questions, and as I'm talking to a student, this is fairly rudimentary thing I could say to them 15 to 30 minutes into something I could say, All right, so we've talked about that. Do you feel like your understanding has moved forward now? Are you? How does that feel for you? Oh, yeah, that makes a big difference. And it's easy to forget how much we know versus what they know. And I think that. And let me circle back around to the pathway. There's a pathway guru out there. You may have heard his name, Rob Johnstone. He had a lot to do with getting California Community Colleges into the pathway, right? So we can't he came to visit us. This must have been five or six or seven years ago. Very convincing. I've seen him interviewed, and I've seen him his nuts and bolts were, if you get someone in a direction and they start on it, great. If it doesn't work out, at least there's they've got something that they're doing. I've had through other Nakata experiences, the opportunity to intermingle with community college and for four year advisors, right? One, the kind of thing I did the summer institute that was huge, because I think there was like 12 of us that were Community College, and it was fascinating to see across the country how people were doing stuff, right? That was instrumental. But, and I would also say that definitely Nakata shaped me, because everything has its origin. I remember the first few months when I was doing the job part time, not know what I was doing. There was a little cubby, desk, overhang desk, I opened it up, the Nakata handbook, like, Hmm, what's that about? I didn't know anything about this, right? The one that I remember specifically, because there's all kinds of versions of that, right? There's the 2000, 2008, 2015, I have them all. I remember the one that resonated, the one that in the chapter in that book, the one that resonated the most with me was Charlie nuts, one to one in life. I was like, Yeah, that's it. I think he was at the Summer Institute, and I met him. I got to know him. He's really good guy. I'd always interact with him like this, Charlie, how you doing? I'm doing just fine. Yeah. He would say. He would ask me, Hey, Jim, how are you doing? Charlie, I'm doing excellent. I like most excellent people. But, yeah, he had, he had that flair to him. But I know he his presentation was very substantial at the Summer Institute.

Matt Markin  
Well, one, that's a great impression of Charlie Nutt. But two, tell us more about how you see Charlie Nutt.

Jim Fasulo  
Here's the kind of guy he is. I ran into him at because before 2022 we had region eight in 2018 and I ran into him there, and he, you know, it's very personable, and he did it. That was why he was a fit. Yeah, if you knew him, you got that authenticity from him. And yeah, when I'm walking around a conference, and I see the NACADA director, he walks out to me and engage with me for 30 seconds. I'm thinking, wow, that was that's pretty cool, right? 

Matt Markin  
Let's talk a little bit more about maybe those, those pathways, you know, because I know when we when we were chatting, kind of back and forth, through LinkedIn, through email, you know, you you have this passion for career technical programs, so talk to me more about those programs, at PCC, at Portland Community College, and kind of your experience advising students in those pathways?

Jim Fasulo  
That's a great question. Our job title is pathway advisor, and we've broken up the college into six paths. Health is one of them. The other are business stem and things like that. STEM includes a lot. So the big change is especially in health. Most students that come to me like I was looking at my schedule today, probably one out of two wants to be a nurse. That's because that's what they know. Matt, they would pursue all kinds of healthcare jobs. If they knew more, I'd say one out of two is like that. And then we have a number of career technical programs that they can pick focus in, along with another advisor, my colleague, Jordan and I on exercise science. Let's, let's actually talk. I'm going to talk about one as a representation for for a number of them, right? So exercise science program, here can be a certificate, a degree or both, right? And I, like, I'm very encouraged to help students in this program, because certificates are very significant in terms of what the certificate leaves them with it ends up producing a lot of skills. For example, a two term combination in for an exercise science student their first year is fitness assessment, one term and then the next term, exercise prescription. That is pretty straightforward thing. Matt, it was a while before I really understood the dynamics of that, how important those two were. That was because I approached a faculty and I said, I'm having a hard time getting a student in this class. And she said, Well, yeah, you really. And then she mentioned fitness assessment. Got to have that, and then you're going to do and she said to me rather succinctly, in the absence of that, the student is really they're going to be off track. So we're an advisors. Job comes in is, yeah, the faculty can articulate that. But this advisors, where they're now assigned to us, that's very significant. They're assigned to us appropriately. So that student, I worked with her. I convinced her not. I didn't have to stronger. I simply said I had an opportunity to learn more about this class. We're trying to help you, and I understand this is a foundational thing. So if you get done that, which will be the pathway for her, for the certificate, the certificate is the first, basically year one of this program. So if they finish that, that's 45 credits. That gets them with a lot of skills, get some readiness to work in the health and fitness industry and a lot of capacities, a lot oftentimes as a trainer. Another big for advisors is you get this from working as an advisor. The student will say, you know, 18, 19, 20, traditional age, or whatever age I'd like to be a this, right? Let's say they say, this is a big one, right? Oh, I want to be a physical therapist. That is quite the journey to do that, right, right? That doesn't necessarily mean I have to say you can't do it. Let's come back to the motivational interview thing. I say, Hmm, that's wonderful. You're interested in that. Can I hear some how that interest came about? If I hear detail, and if I hear, Oh, yeah, I've worked in a physical therapy clinic as an assistant. I have done a, I've done B, okay, they have the context. They understand that one, one dynamic that we get that makes a community college advising job interesting is we get the people with a bachelor's, and then we get the people that have placed at a basic math complete opposites. So when I get someone that has a degree that isn't that hard, because I'm not going to be working with them as much as the university advisor, who's pre met getting those partnerships. When I'm about to say is something I picked up at a convention or an acada conference, it's a lot of it is about the making the connections with our colleagues, so that that's a seamless connection to them, so that the student, I mean, it's a tag team activity. That's the tagline I wanted, right? And I heard that one from a NACADA. So recently, I had a student who's finished about 90% done year one, and he says, Oh yeah, I had talked to him, and he had a lot of goals, and so he did year one, and then he said, I've decided to move on to the university now, because he's very dialed into a specific goal that's separate from ours, right? And he said to me, I want to thank you for the recommendation you gave me. And I said, Okay, can you tell me what that was? He said, Yeah, you told me because I was interested in becoming a physician's assistant, to reach out to that school and and seek pathway, seek clarity. Matt, he's now done a year of our program, 90% done with a certificate. He somehow managed to, I mean, we, we talked about it a lot, and I've changed his academic plan a lot, right? But he somehow managed to get himself into a track where he's a university student in the fall kinesiology with a track. This is a school that he's getting admitted to that also has PA and a graduate. So they all so they're knowledgeable about that. Yeah, I worked with him a lot, but I think the person that made the difference for him for his new goal is the university advisor pre med there, and I can't possibly know all the things that I need to know about that, right? Right? And then the fact that we have this great technology where I can, in a couple clicks, Matt, with the degree on system, I can see it within about 15 seconds. I'm not exaggerating, right? But the student looks at it, and they say, I don't understand that. And I say, Okay, after a few moments of explaining it to them. The next time I talk to them, they're dialed into it, right? So if that leaves the opportunity for advising, that's holistic advising, that's that's done under the guise of like a terry o Banyan, who came to who came to speak to us, Matt, I'm telling you, between him and rob the pathways guy, John Stone, but here's what I remember about Terry o'ban just had his craft like he was like a well oiled machine as he was explaining things and the Banyan approach to the Three or four steps you would take with the student as an advisor, his whole thing was explore career goals from the beginning. I mean, I throw that softball up to the students, and I say, I pretty much know what they're going to say, yet when they have an opportunity to articulate it themselves, and they include that the jobs that they're doing and the passion that they have. He's right. If you get that in the beginning, you work with them more holistically. At the end of your lattice chain is the schedule.

Matt Markin  
Yeah, right, yeah, for sure. Can you talk to us more about career pathways?

Jim Fasulo  
Yeah. So I was talking more about the there are many career technical programs that can be so some programs at the college can be done in a few terms. This is a big one, and I've been helping students in the last two or three terms on yoga teacher. Okay, there's a very enterprising teacher at our college this design, this two terms. It is getting them equipped to be yoga teachers two term. And it's amazing how something like that can Springboard them into continuing their education because they get a credential again. Here's where an advisor is huge. I'll say to them, as they're taking the introductory class, I'll say, Do you have a desire to do the certificate? Oh, what's that about? Boom. And so there are days when I'm at work and I'm thinking, Yeah, I have a lot of knowledge. Well, a lot of the knowledge is being aware of the people who are more knowledgeable. I mean, I think so we talk about students getting a credential. That credential could be very substantial if they have an associate's or bachelor's degree, Matt, or if they have nothing either one. And if that, if we're going to offer a certificate to someone that leads to employment in that sort of a window, they're going to have all kinds of motivation to do the greater training. I try to be as clear when I'm helping them, if they say they're interested in physical therapy, I say, all right, that maybe they don't. Maybe they're not going to grasp that someone has a bachelor's degree and is applying to physical therapy school, grasps it because they're at that juncture in their life, and that's that, right? Someone who is between 18 and 20 and says they're interested in it during an advising session where they're taking college algebra, or, you know, chemistry, general chemistry. And I'll say to them, all right, it looks like you got through that. Tell me, let's, let's talk about that. They're dialed in there. They're going to talk more about, yeah, I'm really ready to learn to go on the next thing. And if they're overwhelmed, and this is the, this is the really cool thing, when you're there in a position where you have more knowledge, the students trying to make a decision, you could say, oh, okay, are you interested in that? And terms are ones you have to really focus in and be clear about because I'll say, if you're doing the exercise science program here, here are the intended outcomes for you. But if you contrast that with a student who says they're interested in being a physical therapist, Exercise Science/Kinesiology, is what they want, university thing, and helping them understand that and where that goes, That can't that maybe that doesn't get done in the first session. That's a that's an intense difference, right? And if they eventually pick it up and they take an introductory class in our program, and the instructor, who was the one I mentioned, who did yoga, who has a doctorate, and she's talking to them, that's huge. So one things that, one suggestion, I would say, is you should take the introductory class. Let's have some conversations. You're going to have conversations with that faculty about that path. Is that something you can commit to?

Matt Markin  
I want to go back to, you know, we're talking about, you know, exploring, you know, careers and kind of. Having that on the onset, you know. And I know, like on PCC's website even states that, you know, research shows the best way to find your dream job is not to focus on making money, but rather on doing something you're good at that helps make the world a better place, you know. And you talk about, like, the motivational interviewing and asking students like, you know, why is it that you're choosing this particular pathway? And it's great to have the students that have really kind of articulated it, but let's say you have a student that's just like, I want to help people, or it's very general, you know, you know, how do you help students kind of really think about and reflect and and consider, kind of what their interests are. 

Jim Fasulo  
That's a great question, because prior to pathways, that was way more complicated than it is. Now, as it turns out, it definitely differs by pathway. And what I've discovered is, when the students are assigned to me, there's some sort of metric that's directing them to health. Thus I don't get as many as the ones that you just said. But if I get one, here's what I want to say about that. Over time, with some development of interactions where they're feeling like someone's advocating initially, I say it's okay to be undecided, right? That's fine, especially if it's, I mean, I It's across the spectrum. I just, I just helped a student the other day who's second year dental hygiene and is under 20. I was just like, could you spend could you give me 30 seconds or a minute just to help me understand how you are taking on such a tremendous, tremendous and she's talked about it. That was great. I think she went to a early college high school program, and they got her she had some interactions with folks in that think she had some mentors in their family, right? So there was that the students come back. I look at the notes the student had said, I'm thinking the student is undecided. He says, Yeah, I'd like to get a degree in psychology. I said to him, and this is a great tool, I said, Okay, we start up again in the fall. We have a career exploration center. Are you familiar with that? No. Well, here's the thing with remote advising. I'll say to him on a zoom call, can you look over left? See that box over there? Would you like me to fill out the appointment request for you? I oftenly, I would like to do it via an email right to the Career Center person. However, what they do on this format, it's wonderful. They ask them a series of questions, why are you seeing us? What is your interests? How can we help you? So if I help them submit that, and then I put on the bottom, filled up by advisor, and I know what to pick, because I'm listening right. And then someone contacts them, and that starts that process. I think this, I think the organization, in that way, has helped us become, help us get students to the right advisor earlier there and when, there are times when, like, I mean, I think my, I think the successful handoffs are to the university advisors that reply back promptly. I understand a lot of what they need to do at certain schools. I can never understand as much as the advisor who works there, right? That advisor is a student and goes, hello Brittany, or to and we, I copy them, and then I get her back. I would more than happy to meet with you and talk about your track here for that huge because they're going to that connection is going to make them feel like, hey, someone's really looking out for me. And they're going to Matt. The reason they would pick ABC school is for, of course, if they have the program, they might pick ABC school, because the advisor there spent some time with them and said, Oh yeah, there's a lot of things we have to discuss. And the nice thing about looking doing this at my in front of two computers is I'm looking at the time, and I thought this was going to go fast. This has been great. I really. Let me also say to your listeners, you're doing a wonderful thing, because when people dial into this that are new, there's a lot you can glean. One of my favorite vignettes, as I had said, I LinkedIn one time I had seen an episode and I sent you a LinkedIn message, and you're on there, and you go, shout out to Jim fuslo. And I was just like, Whoa. That was my moment in the sun right there. I got, I got, you know, calm. And I was like, and you went, the thing that was cool about that, Matt is, you read my LinkedIn thing. I go, obviously he wouldn't have read it if I said something that was kind of salty. I've learned that when you're too be supportive, find things that are positive to say. And here's the vibe that I got from that I'm like, Wow, I'm in Matt's clubhouse right now.

Matt Markin  
No, I mean, we really appreciate, you know for sure, I appreciate any feedback, and yeah, we definitely want to support listeners who support the podcast. So Jim, you've talked about career paths, and, you know, advising your students. Now I know one way or one tool you've mentioned, offline cooperative education. So I was hoping you can maybe share with listeners about cooperative education, what this tool is and and how do you use that with your students?

Jim Fasulo  
Great question. Matt, thanks. Yeah, I think it's particularly effective for the students who are in a career technical program like exercise science or whatever they're doing, because they're across the spectrum and career technical programs, oftentimes it's built in and we can call it cooperative Ed, we can call it internship, we can call it practical. So for a number of programs, it's part of their thing that's very handy in terms of helping them for career readiness. So if we contrast that with a transfer student who isn't really dug in to their context. Let me come into what the class is. Cooperative Education is an opportunity to meet with a career specialist, identify the major goal, and then be assigned out in the workforce, oftentimes volunteer and they can get college credit. The assignment is they have to go to the work site and identify some identifying some outcomes they would want to achieve from that kind of like an internship. Because if they do it and they're enjoying it, and they come back and do it again, oftentimes they can get offered money. It ends up being a class cooperative education, and the other versions of it are internship, which is built in practical, similar thing. So as I've said, as I get online, and especially on LinkedIn, I came across a colleague who's all about this in Los Angeles, actually, his name's Kevin Fleming, so he has really helped shape my thinking. And here are some of the things that he said in terms of why it's important it helps students explore viable careers, validate their tentative career choices, gain work experience, gain a competitive advantage in the field, establish networks and apply and contextualize the principles and knowledge as they are learning in the classroom. That's a lot of bullet points, and what I can say is students are going to be more inclined to keep going when they have this kind of understanding of their career and where I interface with university advisors, when the students have the lofty goal of being a physician's assistant, of being a physical therapist or anything in that category, they need the university advisor like a cook needs salt. They need it. And because from a two year school, we can orient them, we can help them with them classes. If they're going to do a two year degree, they don't necessarily need to talk to a university advisor, because that's not in their plan. But if they say they want to do something that requires a bachelor's, requires advanced education, that connection to the university advisor is huge. And if they have, if we've given them some contextual understanding of the career, and then they connect with that university advisor, they might say, oh, yeah, we have a pathway for that. I want the student to follow something that helps them do the straight line to the career. So I can honestly say that, especially since the pathway, the involvement, the holistic advising all day, I'm helping people apply to a competitive program in nursing, get into the safety that's a lot more than checking off a list. Did you take this? Did you take that? It's helping them with their career. I could keep going on it, but I feel like I had probably mentioned before the Terry o Banyan thing and how influenced I was from NACADA, right when it makes sense to them and they have someone they just trust who's helping them, like I'm a dad pushing the kid on the track. Guess what? At the end of that, at the end of these sessions, I want the training wheels that come off, and I want me to stop pushing. I want them to be and then they're getting then they're getting their mojo. It's working out. This is where I feel like the advisors role should be. We want to get them to that point where they're so interested, they learn, they're trying to learn. Then these other tools come into play, cooperative education. Cooperative Education is lovely, lovely thing out of the classroom into the work world.

Matt Markin  
And I know within the last few minutes we have, if you had to sum it up, talking about career and technical programs that you want advisors to have an understanding about, like, what would that be?

Jim Fasulo  
That's good question. What I would say is that at the top, at the top of the list, I would say you can learn a lot. Look at yourself as like a student of the program when you're first assigned to it, and since you have the technical tools to understand things and they'll come together, you know, with. Degree Audit systems and all that, that's a great tool. Know that if you partner with the faculty who's willing to teach you and willing to express things you know over time, you can get a level of understanding that's increased so that when you're capturing the new student, you have the key things to say to them, like, if I say like, I'm talking about the student that's going back and forth between a very long journey as a physical therapies student versus other paths that they can take. I understand that pretty well, that that what does that lead to? Making sure they're they're with, they're taking introductory classes exploring careers and Exercise Science. We have that course, making sure they're in that right, and just that they can continue, their knowledge can continue to grow. And it becomes fascinating, because while it isn't going to grow to the level of Masters or PhD in this discipline, right, it is going to grow in terms of key, key things that the faculty would be saying to them in the beginning. And if you understand that a couple levels further, I would say that to advisors that are getting into this is that be open to the thought that it can be very rewarding, because you're talking about the student's career more, right? And when you do that, and you involve, like in the Exercise Science degree, they have an internship part one and two, that's where that really gets discussed. That's not thrown at them at random. They're just they're discussing that they have a class that's called Introduction, internship prep, perfect. So just being aware of key things prior to that, I would help students get two year degrees. Sometimes they were focused, sometimes they weren't. And I think that I would say, yeah, just be open to learning more and and know that oftentimes it was like going through a tunnel with your windshield wipers not working and dirt on the window is what it was. You can see the metaphors coming out of me as an English major, Matt, that was just my thing. It would be like now it's like coming through an intersection with the light green, with, you know, the bear, everything going smooth. Why? Because I'm looking at my day to day, right? And I have students that I have, a couple of students that have degrees, okay, they're in health, and I'll say, wonderful. Then it's just going to start there, and it's just so what I would say, and I'm looking at the time, the rewards for doing the work, and what it feels like, and how that, how you're having an impact, it's pretty it's pretty amazing, right? But I think that if people are looking for saying careers that they are interested in doing, if you feel like you can have that much of an impact and to help facilitate things, the student needs to do their part. When I wrote the piece for the pocket guide. I was pretty clear about that, that the students efforts are what get that and all of a sudden they're like, they're so happy because they reach their goal, and they want to thank you. And I'll say That's very kind of you happy, you know, pat yourself on the back. You did this. You were the one who filled out that application. You did that internship, you did all this. I was a facilitator, but yeah, so it was great. I think that I'm now, I'm now going to have more interest in listening to your podcast, because I'm going to look through the archives and see me in there. But I've had a number of them that have been memorable, of ones I've listened to, and so I'll have a have a renewed interest in re engaging in adventures and advising after this.

Matt Markin  
I appreciate that. So you were Jim, you were mentioning the Pocket Guide, and so the one you referred to is the NACADA Pocket Guide, Advising is Forever: Sharing Stories to Ignite orReignite Your Advising Spirit. And you had submitted a piece that was accepted in it. And yours was titled turnaround lessons for academic advisors. And I think this is a great segue to kind of also connect with. You know, exploring career pathways and interest is the story you wrote about and we and the name was changed to protect that student's privacy, but this was a student who was returning student that you helped, and then this student basically came back over a decade. You know, it took over a decade before realizing the career they wanted to pursue. So can you talk a little bit more about that particular story? 

Jim Fasulo  
That's a great segue. She came at and she presented a transfer. When she was 19 or 20, right? It was hard for her to do that, because she had a 2.1 right? But she yet she had finished. This is advising language here. I think it was 60 semester units or something like that, right? A lot. So even though she had done mediocre, she had a lot to build on. She came in there with a educational consultant. She's 30. She has this educational consultant. What they're doing, Matt, what that person helped her do is she was helping them, that student identify graduate programs in Psych like and then for me, she picked up an Associates in three terms that was more focused on psych stuff. That wasn't that part of it wasn't that complicated. The thing that was, whereas is substantial, is she had been in the work world for five or 10 years. Was a line cook, right? So she says a couple of terms in with her, A's, you know, and get it, and she's on the precipice of getting her associate, she says, I'm not going to be a line cook anymore. Okay? For someone who's interested in culinary arts, God bless them. You know, that's fun, right? That's great thing. What I'm saying is to see that, right? So she, so she had the consultant she interviewed, because she was looking at the career as a psychologist. It's career I didn't have anything to do with that because she had this, expect, she had that, herself, that right journey. So now I'd say to contrast that, and oh my gosh, I think when I wrote that piece, it was at the beginning of pathways. Yeah. Now when I get people, I can, I can do the motivational interviewing thing. I can say, Yeah, can you tell me about it? I'm looking at notes from what they've said, and I know it's coming, but I let them articulate, right? And if, if they, if they're having this Terry o Banyan like experience, where we're focusing on their career choice from the beginning, right? Huge. It's going to drive them, because they might show up to that nutrition class and they go, Oh, the reason I'm taking nutrition is nurses need to know enough about nutrition, because this is an important they're not going to question, right? It's going to be fluid. So it just so happened that I remember, I remember her, and I said to her, after she had finished, I said, Yeah, this is an interesting story, if, for some reason I decided to retell this. Are you okay with that? I remember saying that to her, and she goes, Oh, yeah. But then I was like, it was so long ago. I was like, I certainly I wanted to make sure, and I was very pleased that the name was changed and all that, because I just felt like that was a better way to explain that and respecting people's privacy. And yeah, then down the road, she would send me a forum, and it would say the student wants to participate in a research study as a psych. Psych grad student, could you sign off on that? Things students can turn to their advisors for those kind of AIDS, like if they need a letter of reference, or they need someone to vouch for them in the pathway, it happens way more because they've been screened out into a discipline. Yeah, good. This has been great.

Matt Markin  
Jim, I really appreciate you being on and talking about your story and what's going on Z and career pathways and and having listeners learn more about it, and for you know, listening from the very beginning and episode one, and and being supporter of the podcast. And again, I can't thank you enough for being on today. Thank you so much.

Jim Fasulo  
You're very welcome. Thanks. It was great to be here.