E171: Breaking Down Walls- Navigating Vulnerability and Self-Discovery

Join us for a deeply introspective episode as Matt shares his journey of self-discovery and vulnerability. Fresh out of a therapy session, Matt delves into a candid conversation about unintentional hurts, self-awareness, and the challenges of opening up. From workplace dynamics to personal walls built from past experiences, Matt and Steve explore the complexities of human connection and growth. Tune in for a raw and relatable discussion on the path to understanding oneself and embracing authenticity. Whether you're seeking solace, insights, or simply a shared experience, this episode offers valuable reflections on navigating relationships, both with others and with oneself.

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Transcript

Matt: 0:25

just got out of a therapy session before I came in to this, and I really ripped the Band-Aid off quite a bit. So I've got all types of stuff to talk about. I hope that you enjoy the show and you get help out of the show, because I sure do. And for me, that's all that matters is that I find relief from all of this. And if you can get something from my pain, that's great. So I want to tell you a story, Steve, about something that happened today and then something that happened afterwards that made me realize some things about myself. I had somebody reach out to me. They wanted to chat and we had some pleasantries. And then they said, You interrupted me yesterday in a meeting and it's not the first time you did it. And it really makes me feel disrespected. And I was dumbfounded by this because I don't want people to feel hurt by me. The one thing that bothers me more than anyone else, anything else, is that if you tell me I've done something to hurt you, that's the worst thing you can say to me, because it's not something I want to do. And I didn't even realize it, did It? And I didn't make excuses. All I did is just. I was silent. I listened to her and I said, I don't disrespect you. I respect you quite a bit. And I didn't know I did it. And I'm sorry that I did it. And I am going to be much more self-aware. And then we had a nice conversation after that, and I feel like that's all I can do for the amends process. And yet I'm still beating myself up over it.

Steve: 2:15

Yeah,

Matt: 2:16

What does that say? And I will tell you this this type of behavior is something that led me to drink. So I guess what's what's the thing worth working on here?

Steve: 2:26

well, first of all, it's great to be here tonight. Matt. You know, our big book, our art literature tells us about our drinking. And one of the things it talks about throughout our book is that how after a drinking binge. And another stuff, but mostly a drinking binge, we suffer from remorse. Right.

Matt: 2:48

Mm hmm.

Steve: 2:48

And I think, one, when you get sober and I know this is the case for me, that if I continue to still do some mistakes that hurt people, I still have a lot of that remorse. Right. I'm still like, oh, I'm doing that behavior still. I've got to stop it. So it hits hard is my point is it hits hard. Even though you're in recovery, you don't want to do it. Actually, I think it probably hits harder because you don't want to do it right.

Matt: 3:12

Right.

Steve: 3:13

And you've made changes in your life so you don't act that way so that when you do it, it hits harder than maybe TiVo. You know, listen, I spent a good part of my life not giving a shit. If I interrupted you a step down, you're told. I mean that just like I didn't care. Right. But now I do. So it's the same thing. If I do something like that and somebody says, Hey, that really bothered me. Like, Yeah, I'm aghast. And I got to. I have to pay attention. And you know, typically for me, that means I got to sort of got to figure out like, well, you don't go to work, got to go work through that back of my head. Like, why did I do that? Why did I feel the need to was, you know, what was going on? And I you know, today I have the tools to do some of that work and try to figure out, hey, what was going on? Why did I do that? You know, and then maybe I could figure that out.

Matt: 4:03

I have no memory of even doing it.

Steve: 4:05

Yeah.

Matt: 4:05

That's the thing. And I have a feeling I know what was going on. One. Everything I do is on Microsoft teams. There

Steve: 4:13

Okay.

Matt: 4:13

is a gap. There's a latency there. So I start talking. The other person starts talking. I may not hear it.

Steve: 4:23

Mm

Matt: 4:23

I also

Steve: 4:23

hmm.

Matt: 4:23

ADHD, which honestly, sometimes I just don't hear other people.

Steve: 4:29

All right.

Matt: 4:29

Not out of malice. It's just I'm dialed in. I might not even hear you. And I think another part of it is I feel as though I have to be more assertive. So I'll just keep going through. And the one action I can take is I need to be more self-aware.

Steve: 4:48

Yeah. You do need to be self-aware. I don't know if it's more or not that you know. You know that. Not me, but you do need to be self-aware of that. And this is sort of one of those things, like I said, like, okay, it's a it's sort of a notice, like, yeah, that. That maybe you got to pay attention, maybe try to figure out why. I also think you you mentioned that, right? You're doing some therapy work now. You've been doing

Matt: 5:10

Mm hmm.

Steve: 5:10

that for a bit. So, you know, there's probably some raw feelings going on to some of that work, some

Matt: 5:15

Yes.

Steve: 5:15

of the stuff you're digging up. So again, this might be something that hit harder or whatever is going on because of some of that stuff, too. So there is a little bit of giving yourself a break here and without ignoring the fact that you have to do better in that area. Right. Without ignoring that, like, oh, I have to do better. I have to pay attention working on some type of zoom or teams. I don't think I've ever worked on a teams call. I will always zoom or something else internal. At the time, and

Matt: 5:47

It works the same way. It's

Steve: 5:48

it

Matt: 5:48

all

Steve: 5:48

does.

Matt: 5:48

the same.

Steve: 5:48

But I, you know, and I just don't remember there being a big delay in my stuff. But in those situations, I listen, I'm on a meeting every Wednesday with five or six people on my team. People talk all over each other all the time. Right. They talk over each other all the time because

Matt: 6:04

Yeah,

Steve: 6:04

you can't anticipate that, right? You can't. And, you know, people have to just somebody has to stop talking so the other person can talk. And it's just part of that is and, you know, that's the other thing is I don't know who the coworker is. And again, this is not picking on them, but maybe they're a bit sensitive over certain things, too.

Matt: 6:25

I think they absolutely are.

Steve: 6:27

Right.

Matt: 6:27

Which it does not discount it.

Steve: 6:29

Right.

Matt: 6:29

It's more

Steve: 6:29

It doesn't.

Matt: 6:30

of an awareness that I think this is a more sensitive person.

Steve: 6:33

Right.

Matt: 6:34

And therefore, I have to adjust.

Steve: 6:36

Yeah, to a certain extent. Right. To a certain extent. You got to discuss adjust. But there is a point where somebody has to understand that, you know, again, if it happens again and you have these conversations, then, you know, you have to have a conversation like, hey, I'm not doing this on purpose. This is just the way some of these calls go. People just made. They may have to adjust on their own, too.

Matt: 7:00

Mm hmm.

Steve: 7:01

And so it's not all about you. But listen, we talk about all time. You know, we can only do we can only fix ourselves. We can

Matt: 7:08

Yes.

Steve: 7:08

only handle our own stuff, which is what you're talking about tonight. Okay. So, yeah, I want to handle my own stuff. Yet I feel like I'm just beating myself with, you know, beat myself at the hammer over and

Matt: 7:20

Mm

Steve: 7:20

over.

Matt: 7:20

hmm.

Steve: 7:20

So it's probably a bit unnecessary, you know, unnecessary to do it. So hard. But I think it's human. And I think for those of us in recovery, I think we do it harder and we we take it more seriously than many other people.

Matt: 7:35

So here's part two of this. I went right into that, into a work happy hour, a zoom happy hour with my newer team. And it was actually really good. Sometimes these zoom happy hours are stupid, but we kind of came with a show intel type thing, and people wanted to see what my set up looks like here. So I showed that a little bit and there were some people who were very vulnerable and I was uncomfortable. I was really uncomfortable in this situation, hearing the vulnerability of others and not like crazy stuff. It was just like, Here's what you don't know about me that I do on my off time. I really can put up a wall with people. And this is something I'm working on in therapy of. It's hard to get to know me because I don't want to get hurt and growing up the way I did. If you if you grew up the way I did, you'd put a wall up to. And that holds me back. Once I get to know you and open up, I'm fine. But I have heard this feedback over and over and over again that is hard for me to open up. But I also realize it's hard for me to hear other people open up. And it was it was really uncomfortable for me. Really

Steve: 8:57

If

Matt: 8:57

uncomfortable.

Steve: 8:58

it was uncomfortable, why? Because you can tell they were uncomfortable doing it.

Matt: 9:03

Had nothing to do with that. I

Steve: 9:04

Okay.

Matt: 9:04

was hearing people portray themselves beyond the work thing. They

Steve: 9:09

Uh

Matt: 9:09

weren't

Steve: 9:09

huh.

Matt: 9:09

their work selves, they were their real self.

Steve: 9:11

Gotcha. Gotcha. So yeah, you were struggling with that because that's something you don't do easily or well.

Matt: 9:19

I don't feel like I do it well.

Steve: 9:21

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Again, I mean, we, you know, we all have our stuff. I mean, there's some things you do well, some things you don't do well. And, you know, we hear it in our meetings all the time. Don't. Don't fall in love with work, because work doesn't love you back. So there's a little bit of

Matt: 9:35

Mm

Steve: 9:35

that.

Matt: 9:35

hmm.

Steve: 9:36

when I first, you know, when I was first out there and working, I thought my coworkers were my friends, and I did

Matt: 9:43

Mm

Steve: 9:43

for a long

Matt: 9:43

hmm.

Steve: 9:43

time. And then I realized was I went from one place to another, like, none of those friends really followed me.

Matt: 9:49

Right.

Steve: 9:50

Right. Once. I never once I didn't work there anymore. I mean, I don't know if any of them one one followed me for, you know, we became friends and we hung out for a while for for, you know, when I say a while, I mean years. And we became decent friends. But for the most part, my coworkers never became my friends. And they were coworkers and they were acquaintances who I was friendly with, you know, and, and, you know, some of that for me, too, was especially going out once I got into the program. A lot of the things that that people did after work was go to, you know, happy hours and stuff like that. And that was a common theme. Hey, we're going down the you know, we're going down to the tobacco tobacco shed as well, place local, you know, local joint and Windsor. And I never went to those because it just wasn't my place. Right. And so I was never part of that whole group. And and so. Well, and that's what I mean. So some things are different for certain people. So you got to figure out what's worked for you. And and maybe it's something you want to work on. I mean, you're still a young enough guy that you're going to be doing some of this in the future. So maybe you want to figure out how you open up and you do some stuff.

Matt: 11:00

This is a lot of what I have for therapy, and the therapist is pushing me on it, so I. It's. It's more of a sign that it's something I want to work on. I realize that this was something else I drank over because I had this hard shell. The only thing that made it feel natural Mm that I could bring it down was hmm. drinking. Mm Then hmm. my inhibitions came down, and Right. that's one of the reasons it took me so long to stop drinking, because how was I going to be able to deal with the outside world with the inhibitions I have? So I need alcohol.

Steve: 11:36

Mm hmm. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I see it different for you and meetings, and I'm not sure if you could take that, because I don't find that in meetings that I see you in. You are sort of shelduck. I feel like you talk about your stuff. I think you talk about it openly. you know, for the most part you talk about topic stuff, but you also share your stuff. And so I find it interesting that, you know, there's certain aspects, certain areas of your life where you probably don't feel that way and there's other, you know, areas where you do and certainly work is one of those tough ones. It's like, you know, it is one of those tough ones you got to figure out, like, how much do I share? How much do I put out there?

Matt: 12:20

Mm hmm.

Steve: 12:21

you know, it's definitely, you know, better to err on the side of caution and put less out there. Too much. Right. I mean, plus, there's no question about that. So I wouldn't go too hard on yourself. I would go, you know, listen, I'll work on it. I'll try to figure out some different strategies to how I open myself up. But you want to take it slow. I think just because, like I said, in that work environment, you know, a bad mistake, putting some something out there that's that's a little bit too much. You might be in. You'll be beating yourself up again, Right?

Matt: 12:53

Mm

Steve: 12:53

That's

Matt: 12:54

hmm.

Steve: 12:54

what you would do in that situation.

Matt: 12:56

Let me give you the flip side.

Steve: 12:58

Sure.

Matt: 12:58

I had I recorded a conversation I had with a panel. We're setting up a learning session around coaching and knowledge and development, and I brought together a bunch of leaders, most of them bigger titles than me, some pretty big titles. And I know these people. I have relationships, and these are people I admire as leaders in developing and of people. And that's what I was trying to do. So I was very nervous about having this half hour conversation and I had to tape it and I had to be the interviewer and I was nervous. And as soon as I got it going, I realized this was a homerun. And the feeling that I had was really good, but I was uncomfortable because the only way to describe it is if you have had too much cannabis and you've gone past that feeling that it's good. And if I've had too much cannabis before and that's why I don't like cannabis is because too much I feel like I want out. And that's the high high that I felt. It was uncomfortable because I wanted out too Mm much hmm. and the therapist talked to me a little bit about it, like, why couldn't you enjoy that? Is there something around that that you couldn't accept? And I think there's something about that. I think there's something around. I had a good feeling I wasn't middle of the road. I definitely don't like being down, but I don't like feeling too much emotion either way that I was uncomfortable with.

Steve: 14:34

Yeah. Again, I think it could be. And again, I'm not your therapist, so don't take my advice as your therapist. but I think there also could be some of that. You know, we talk about this whole

Matt: 14:45

Yeah.

Steve: 14:45

fraudster stuff, right? So that when you get

Matt: 14:47

Yes.

Steve: 14:47

on that big high, you're like, okay, when is this going to go bad? Like, when is it going to when is it going to dive bomb on me, Right? So we do have that. Those of us who suffer from that, we do have that in the back of our mind, like, Oh, this is going too well, so when is it going to go bad even if we're not conscious about it? Right. So you know, I think part of it could be a little bit of that. You're like, ooh, I'm not comfortable with this is it's going too good, you know, that maybe, you know, something in the back of my mind is thinking I don't deserve this, whatever that, you know, it shouldn't be this good. And again, I think that with some with some thought and investigation and a little bit of work on your own, either through therapy or

Matt: 15:35

Mm

Steve: 15:35

your

Matt: 15:35

hmm.

Steve: 15:35

program and steps or whatever, I think I think some of that stuff can be worked out.

Matt: 15:42

There is definitely the self esteem issue, which my wife has talked to me about. You don't have it. And these are things that lead me to drink. So the high highs are uncomfortable. I realize that I had to be outstanding and perfect Mm to feel normal, hmm. and if I'm not at that level, I feel below normal when normal people are fine. Feeling good enough. That led me to drink because I could drop down my inhibitions and I could perform and I always had to feel like I had to be something that I was not. And I always felt more comfortable acting as a character Mm hmm.

Steve: 16:29

You know, you bring up a good point here, Matt, and it's like. It's like, why am I, like, why couldn't I? And many of us. But I'll talk about me because it really did you when you said that, like, why can't I always have to feel, you know, to feel normal? I have to feel excellent or whatever it might be. Why couldn't I be happy with just a nice boss?

Matt: 16:53

right,

Steve: 16:53

You know? I mean, sort of the same thing as like, I always needed to have, you know, I was I was never buzzed enough until I was super buzzed or super drunk. Right. Same thing. You know, it's the same thing with cannabis with me when I was smoking pot back in the day. Was that again? I you know, I never had like, you know, let's light up a joint, take a couple of hits or a little ball. Oh, I was never a pipe person. I was always a joint person. And I think that was because I like to smoke a lot of it. and, you know, have a little buzz and then go on hour day. Right. That was just wasn't the way I worked. I was like, no, let's

Matt: 17:30

Right.

Steve: 17:30

smoke a joint and get totally wasted. Would regardless of the time of day. so that I can't do anything you know. And it's, it's just and like, it's the same thing, like, why did I need to go that far? Right? I don't know if those things are tied. I don't know if they're tied. You know, in order to feel normal, I had to get super buzzed, you know.

Matt: 17:51

This is the the what's the word I'm looking for. The issue that I have is outside the rooms, inside the rooms. Because you are right, I feel much more comfortable being myself inside the rooms. I Mm. can be vulnerable and I can talk to people about what's really going on and I can listen to people about what's going on with them. My issue in life has been once I leave an AA meeting, then why? And when I say that, that also extends to socializing with people who are in recovery. That's a different situation. The rules of engagement with people in recovery are so much more different than normal people because we we are over shares

Steve: 18:41

Yeah,

Matt: 18:41

by what would be considered. Whoa, You're oversharing

Steve: 18:44

yeah,

Matt: 18:44

there, buddy.

Steve: 18:45

yeah,

Matt: 18:45

There's just the norm with us.

Steve: 18:47

yeah.

Matt: 18:47

That's what we have to do to stay sober. And it's

Steve: 18:51

And

Matt: 18:51

outside of that that I feel lost sometimes.

Steve: 18:56

yeah, it is interesting because not only are we over sharers, no, again, that's not all of us, but that's a lot of us and more. And we are encouraged to be. Overshare is in the room. I tell

Matt: 19:07

Correct?

Steve: 19:07

people that all the time. I encourage people to put their as I'll say to me, just just put your stuff out and you know, regardless of what the subject is, if you have something to talk about to talk about it. The other thing is, is that it's just such a it's just such a loving and and forgiving and accepting place to do that stuff. Right. The people within that room, I say it all the time, You know, these people know me probably better than anyone in my life. I

Matt: 19:42

Mm

Steve: 19:42

mean

Matt: 19:42

hmm.

Steve: 19:43

that honestly like and I'm not talking about, you know, obviously I'm not talking. They don't know how maybe how I take my coffee and and what toothpaste I like. But, man, they know how my brain works. You know, they know how my brain works in these type of situations that we're talking about. Right. This type of thing of when I when I'm stressed out or what kind of things don't work for me, they know that kind of stuff about me because I talk about it all the time, Like, here's well, here's what I'm struggling with right here. Here's the challenges going on in my life, right? I've talked about them before here. Here's the challenges I have. And, you know, I put it out in the room or if it's a little bit too sensitive, I've learned too I've learned to sort of cut back on some of my stuff. I used to be a really big overshare. Now I've cut back on a bunch of it and I do a lot more sharing one on one, right? And or especially what I'll do if I have something to share, I'll start by sharing it one on one or in a small group of the guys I know and like with you, you know, with some of the other guys to Todd's the Yeah, the, you know, some of this, all the other guys and, and then once I feel like, okay, I think I can put this out to a bigger group, then I'll put it back out there right now, I'll sort of get the feel for what's going on. And again, that's it's such a loving, you know, group that I'm able to do that. And there's no judgment, you know, there's no outwardly outward judgment. You know, nobody's going to say much. They they make they may make suggestions or call you on your behavior, but they're not going to judge you on it. Right. They may say, hey, you might you know, you might want to take a look at that or what's going on or are you sure about that? Or maybe need to do some work on it. But they're not going to tell you not to share it for the most part. You know?

Matt: 21:27

A lot of my sharing now is teachable moments. Mm hmm. There's usually purpose. If I'm sharing something about myself, a lot of times it is. I know this is going to help somebody else. I'm going

Steve: 21:38

Right.

Matt: 21:38

to share an example and I'm going to tie it into the reading. And this might help somebody else. Or sometimes

Steve: 21:44

Yeah,

Matt: 21:44

I just need to get it off my chest. And a lot of the times I will pull somebody aside to talk to or I'll have a phone call ahead of time. I'm trying to give more back and podcast helps with that that I'm thinking through, Hey, I'm dealing with something. I think this would be good content. I think this would be good because most people feel the same way. Those are the times that I get an email back of. Yeah, I, I have felt that way too. I'm glad you brought that up. So it was it was interesting. There's just some things in my and the other thing is at 48 years of age, why am I not past this at this point?

Steve: 22:23

yeah,

Matt: 22:24

And,

Steve: 22:24

yeah,

Matt: 22:25

and the therapist said, you know, relax, you went through a lot of stuff. You have to unwind some of this stuff. And I guess I have to unwind. I'm going to make progress. But that's why I'm a failure. I'm not past that at this point.

Steve: 22:39

yeah. That's something that I used to struggle with. I felt like I should have. I should have already been there, done that. Right. And I've given up on that. Like we get to where we get when we get there. And regardless of the reason, whether it's because it because of, you know, my childhood, because of things that I grew up with or because I just chose not to work on it at a certain point in my life, I just don't beat myself up on that anymore. I really don't. I'm like, Yeah, you know, and again, I'm a bit older than you, so it's a different place in my life, but I just I don't waste time on that anymore. I, I did a lot of that right? I did a lot of that because, during my drinking years, I was underemployed or unemployed during what should have been prime, prime earning years of my life. Right. That mid thirties to even early forties now probably. Yeah. I would say maybe even early forties like the time where I should have been able to make some decent money, really start doing some stuff were horrible years for me financially personally and that was and that was hard right. That was hard. And again, it's one of the reasons why I've shared this before. Like when I finally did get in a position which didn't happen until you know, early 50 years late, you know, mid to late forties, early fifties, I became a workaholic and I just really just drove into work big time and started making as much money as I could. I was in a position where I could affect my paycheck because I was in sales with commissions and I started working hard on that. But I don't think about that anymore. As a matter of fact, you know, again, I'm at a different point in my life where I'm thinking just the opposite. you know, I'm about a year away from where I can collect full Social Security, and and then I can decide whether I want to continue to work for a while or whether I don't want to work at all. And I don't need to make that decision today. So I don't know. I'd like. Oh, let's see. Let's see what happens next year at this time. And I could I could decide then,

Matt: 24:39

We would love to hear what you have to say with topics like this. You can always email at Matt at Sober Friends podcast. The website is Sober Friends, Pod dot com Instagram and Social media Sober Friends Pod, I should say at Sober Friends Pod, but you know where to find it. Hey, when are you going to give us an Apple review? It's been a little bit of time since we got a five star review and a little bit of a comment on what you like. We really like seeing that it would it would make us really happy if you go and put a review in there, not just the stars, but also put something in there. I'm begging you, please do something nice for us as we as we exit as we exit the I should say, we're not exiting the Easter season. I guess I guess this is the Easter season. And what is there like more weeks of Easter than there is of Lent?

Steve: 25:29

Right? Yeah. Yeah. So we are entering it. it is one of those things. Right. Well, or we enter it on Sunday

Matt: 25:37

Right?

Steve: 25:39

and Yeah. So it's really always good to get together and do this. And I agree, if you're out there

Matt: 25:45

Yep.

Steve: 25:45

listening to this, yeah, give us, give us, show us some love.

Matt: 25:49

And don't make us feel like the two of us are just staring at a computer screen talking to no one

Steve: 25:53

right. Sitting

Matt: 25:54

because

Steve: 25:54

in

Matt: 25:54

that's

Steve: 25:54

my

Matt: 25:54

how

Steve: 25:54

office,

Matt: 25:54

it feels sometimes.

Steve: 25:55

but we know we're not. But yeah,

Matt: 25:57

Mm hmm.

Steve: 25:58

it's nice. It's nice when you let us know that we're not.

Matt: 26:01

Absolutely. All right, Steve, thanks

Steve: 26:04

All

Matt: 26:04

for

Steve: 26:04

right, man.

Matt: 26:04

being a good sounding board tonight. I

Steve: 26:06

Good

Matt: 26:06

needed

Steve: 26:06

enough,

Matt: 26:06

this.

Steve: 26:06

man. Always, always glad to be here.

Matt: 26:09

We'll see you next week, everybody.