#206: How “No” Led This Game Creator To Unexpected Opportunity

In this special edition of "Making It In The Toy Industry," we follow the journey of Catherine Tenaglia, co-founder of Race to Stupid, as she shares insights into her entrepreneurial venture and the impact of TCA on her business strategy.

Catherine reflects on her TCA experience, highlighting the invaluable guidance provided by the founder of The Toy Coach. She emphasizes how Azhelle’s expertise and structured approach helped her navigate the complexities of the toy industry with confidence. Throughout the interview, Catherine discusses the transformative impact of TCA on her understanding of industry terminology and essential business practices. From mastering concepts like RFQs (Request for Quotes) to gaining clarity on pitching techniques and licensing opportunities, TCA equipped Catherine with practical skills essential for success.

Moreover, Catherine underscores the importance of the TCA community, where she found camaraderie, support, and a wealth of shared experiences. Through interactions with fellow entrepreneurs and access to expert advice, she not only expanded her network but also accelerated her business growth.

Looking ahead, Catherine shares her plans for Race to Stupid, including the development of new game concepts and strategic rebranding efforts. She credits TCA for empowering her to pursue ambitious goals and adapt to market demands effectively.

⭐️  Special thanks to our TCA Alumni Series host, Virginia Lette for capturing these raw conversations. ⭐️

Tune in next week where we will dive back into the tools, strategies, and lessons that you need to know to help you Make It In The Toy Industry.


Episode Cliff Notes:

• Catherine highlights the effectiveness of Toy Creators Academy (TCA) in providing a comprehensive understanding of the toy industry, preventing individuals from feeling overwhelmed by information available online.
• The importance of learning industry-specific terminology such as RFQ (Request for Quote), and how it significantly impacts one's ability to navigate the industry professionally.
• Catherine completed the TCA course in 12 weeks, finding it challenging to balance with her existing career and would have preferred the go at your own pace version that’s available today.
• The benefits of TCA's self-paced learning and on-demand support allows for flexibility and continued interaction with the community.
• The TCA virtual pitch event played a critical role in connecting entrepreneurs with industry professionals, boosting confidence and providing valuable pitching experience.
•  TCA offered comprehensive lessons on entrepreneurship, pitching, and licensing, providing valuable insights and skills crucial for success in the toy industry.

Mentioned In This Episode:
This episode is brought to you by www.thetoycoach.com

Visit thetoycoach.com/206 for the links mentioned in today's episode.

Transcript

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I got into retailers on my own, so, like, I felt like I did some pretty good progress. We get good responses about the game, so it's like, it's like I was kind of a couple modules in, in my mind. And I'd be like, hey, can't I just get, I would email Azhelle, can't I just do modules eight, seven, and nine? And she's like, no, you have to do it all. Like, that was like, and that was probably a couple times after. I'd be like, no, but really, I just want to know about pitching and not these other things. And then finally, I was like, I jumped in. I was like, okay, I'm going to dedicate the time and make the leap and fill in those gaps and do her process. You are listening to Making It in the Toy Industry, episode number 206. Well, hey there, toy people. Now, if you're thinking, this doesn't sound like Azhelle, then you'd be right. My name's Virginia, and this week, I've snuck into Ajelle's podcasting chair to bring you a special episode of Making It In The Toy Industry. Regular listeners to this podcast will be familiar with Toy Creators Academy, often referred to here as TCA. TCA is the premier step by step roadmap for creating, marketing, and selling your own games and toys. As you might imagine, there have been some extraordinary success stories to come out of Toy Creators Academy. And today we're going to profile one of the course graduates. Yep, I've had the privilege of chatting with a bunch of the TCA alumni. To not only find out more about the products and ventures that they've developed since completing the course, but also to pick their brains about such things as what inspired them to enrol in Toy Creators Academy in the first place. And what was their professional background before dipping a toe into the toy industry? You see, Perhaps much like you, I stumbled across this podcast myself, and I'd also been considering joining TCA. So, to have the opportunity to quiz some of the previous students on their experiences of doing the course, was enormously valuable to me. And that's why for this week's episode of Making It in the Toy Industry podcast, we thought that perhaps you might like to hear their story too. So, let's dive in. Welcome, Kathy, to the podcast and making it in the toy industry. Thanks for having me. It's so exciting. Oh, well, thank you for being here. Kathy Tenaglia, your business is Race to Stupid. Yes. Of which I've just been on your website. It's so fun. The fun just jumps off the page. Got cute little pictures there of you and your sister when you guys were little. Very close. My sister and I, Marie, yep. So as a matter of fact, Race to Stupid is your business that you set up with your sister, Marie. Yes. And when did all of this come about? I mean, is this something that you guys have been cooking up since you were little kids? No, of course not. Our story is kind of interesting or maybe not so interesting. I feel like it happens to many people. We played games as a kid all the time. It was just her and I played games. And then years go by, life happens. We have careers and we have a cousin we're very close with. Every Christmas she buys a game. We play at Christmas time when we visit and we were playing a game and it was trivia. And I had kind of drank maybe a whole bottle of homemade wine throughout the night, and we were having fun, but the game was no fun at all. It was like, you got points deducted if you didn't know the answer to the question. Some were 7 points, some were 10 points, you started at 100. And so I'm drinking, and we don't know any of the answers, and I'm like, This game is like racing to stupid because we didn't know any of the answers. Literally, that was like the conversation. And I'm like, we can do a better game. And so I'm throwing out ideas to my younger cousin thinking, Hey, I'll get a younger perspective. He'll think it's a great idea. He's just like. You guys are crazy. My sister the next day goes, I think you have a really good idea. Like, and I said, like, race is stupid. Like, that's a great name for a business. So that kind of was the, the start of it all. And she next day, Marie's like, no, I think we have something like we ever kind of came up with the idea throughout the night of more drinking and talking and just, you know, because it was offended that we didn't like her game. But I was like, but look what happened. We came up with a really good trivia game. Where you don't need to know any answers to when it's just more about having fun and not feeling stupid, actually, even though racist stupids in the name of the game. Yeah, that's really how, how it all started our racist stupid business. Well, I imagine most businesses start like that, just having a couple of drinks or sitting around with friends, just chewing the fat, bouncing around ideas. And here you are. Yeah. And we checked the domain like that night. I was like, Oh, racist stupids available. And my boyfriend's always like by domain name. So the next day I bought the domain name, not really knowing that we were really going to do this or not, but that was kind of the beginning of it. And we kind of rolled pretty quickly into developing it and figuring out how we want it to look. And we didn't have any idea what we were doing whatsoever. We just had an idea and that was it. So as a side note, are you one of those domain name hoarders like me? No, no, I'm a perjurer. I keep on a year. If I don't do anything with them, they're gone. My boyfriend has probably hundreds of them. I think at last count, I have about 30. No, if I don't use them, they're gone. I'm like. What's the odds of somebody really picking up my crazy, weird name for a game that may or may not work? Which I actually learned through Azalea of like, we think a name is right, but it's like, mm, it might not be the real game name at the end, so. I held on to the very night and hoped that maybe someone will approach me and offer me millions of dollars for one of them. That's a good thought. Might happen. Your website says that you create outrageously fun games. You've got trivia, you've got pirates. What else have you got there in your bag of treats? We also did a pandemic game. Some people think it's funny. Some people don't, just depends on your personality. We thought it was pretty funny of just all the things we went through, especially in the States of toilet paper hoarding and people wearing their face masks while they're driving by themselves. And just all these things that we just kind of build up and, and, uh, We made a kind of collections game of things you had to collect to survive. Like, you know, your toilet paper, canned goods, and here you couldn't find yeast. So just all these kind of silly things that we went through. We also then made a pandemic game that is a simple fun card game. And that's one of those, either you love it or you're like, uh, I'm over it and I don't think it's funny. But we still think it's funny. If you don't mind me asking, what age bracket were you in when you came up with the idea for Race to Stupid? Oh, we just did it three years ago. This was Christmas of 2020. before pandemic hit. Uh huh. This is when we came up with it. You were more mature. You had had a career background or a whole life before you came up with your idea. It's just a completely crazy idea of we have a good idea. Let's not be one of those people who just say I have a good idea and then never do anything. I started crunching some numbers, figuring out some things, did a lot of Google searching and then said like, let's go ahead and do it. What was your background before? I'm a landscape designer. And my sister's a veterinarian. So we have no, no real game background. I have enough knowledge for like with Photoshop and things like that of design and colors, that's been very helpful along the way to do a lot of the things that we've done. This is so great. This little career pivot, although I'd imagine you probably still both doing though. We both still have our day jobs. This is a complete side hustle kind of. fun thing that we do. And, you know, we start out with race is stupid. And then we did prepare the pandemic game. And then I had another idea for the pirate game. And then we're like, let's kind of just keep going with it and see where we go. So now we're in it like three years at this point. Tell me, how did you come across Toy Creators Academy? I actually was listening to another podcast of two women and I can't remember what their podcast was. It was just more general business and they had a gel on their podcast. I was like, Oh, this is perfect. And I was kind of getting bored with what they were talking about. They were maybe talking about cosmetics and just different things. And I'm like, this doesn't fit my business or journals or all kinds of stuff that came on. I was like, Oh, this is exactly what I need to hear like and start listening to. So then I kind of dumped their podcast and then just listened to From then on. So that was probably two and a half, three years ago. So you started listening to making it in the toy industry. You know, a lot of the content that she was talking about was resonating with you. You had your idea for Race to Stupid. At what point did you think maybe we should enroll in the Toy Creators Academy? I'm very like, if I'm going to spend the money, I need to put the time in and get what I'm putting into it. So I was kind of on the fence because I was, we were busy developing a new game. And then I was kind of struggling with certain things, like, how do we pitch to big companies? Certain things, I got into retailers on my own, so, like, I felt like I did some pretty good progress. We get good responses about the game, so it's like, it's like I was kind of a couple modules in, in my mind. And I'd be like, hey, can't I just get, I would email Azhelle, can't I just do modules eight, seven, and nine? And she's like, no, you have to do it all. Like, that was like, and that was probably a couple times after. I'd be like, no, but really, I just want to know about pitching and not these other things. And then finally, I was like, I jumped in. I was like, okay, I'm going to dedicate the time and make the leap and fill in those gaps and do her process. Because I'm like, clearly my process isn't a hundred percent and I don't know everything. Um, and one time in one of her podcasts, she said, are you tired of Googling the information? I'm like, Oh my God, that's me. Cause people like, how'd you figure out how to do an LLC? How'd you figure out how to get a manufacturer? I'm like, I Googled it all. And that was, so it was like, when she said that, I was like, Oh my God, that's. That was me, like I'm the perfect person and this is what I need to fill in my gaps to take her class. What you just said really resonates with me as well because for those that might be new to listening to this podcast, I am also doing the Toy Creators Academy. I'm, I'm a current student and I'm really only about three or four modules in and much like you. It took me quite a while to sign up because I was thinking I really only need help with finding a factory like I sort of felt like I had got myself to that point where really only needed to you know module 7 or 8 or whatever it is and like you I approached to gel and just said. You know, the reason I haven't joined up to this point is I feel like I only need one little section of it. And she's like, I don't do that. And rightly so, because now I've gone back and done the whole thing. It's like learning to be an artist. You can't just get out there and make famous artworks without having studied your craft and all the things that you didn't want to learn about it for so long beforehand. It's putting all the bricks together to build the house. Right. You can't just have the house or have the room painted or whatever. So, yeah, that really resonated with me as well. So it's nice to hear that other people came into it from the same bent. Yeah. And I think like that and her doing that probably definitely is the right approach because like that, I was like, oh, I did this part really well. And I'm like, oh, this part. I would have done better or different had I known this first, simple things like a box design, like just little things like, Oh, I didn't put anything on the side of my box. Oops. You know, and and ahead with manufacturing. So little things. It's like, Oh, that would have been an analogy would be buying a camera without a tripod. You're never going to get that beautiful still shot unless you have that. Fundamental solid base. Yeah, exactly. So, and two, it was good because I was learning things by Googling. And so then I could go back and be like, Hey, Marie, next time when we were developing the next game, like, you know, we need to kind of do it this way. And then she, I could kind of actually teach her as well. Um, because my schedule is flexible and I could take a gels class where hers isn't. Um, so that part's been really good too. Then I can share with her and then we kind of grow and learn it together as well. So that's been really great to pass it on to my design business partner sister. It just knits everything together so well rather than Googling and just being completely overwhelmed and confused by all of the information. She's packaged it all very neatly and a lot of professionalism and experience behind her. And the other thing I think is the lingo, because I didn't know what an RFQ was, you know, there's different things and I'm like, Oh, I would just, you know, or how to put the proposal out to get a request for a quote, you know, and I just be like, Oh, I just write a list and I'm like, Oh, I so didn't know how to do that the correct way. So. Those little things like you don't even think that you don't know. It was stuff that you don't know that she teaches you to was, I think it's really beneficial. So you found that there was a lot of stuff you thought you'd covered that you hadn't covered properly or in the right way. So that was really helpful. How long do you think it took you to complete the course? Well, I think it was 12 weeks is what it took us to finish the course. It was rough for me with having a career to do all the lessons, do your homework and try and kind of keep up. I kind of felt it was great at the beginning because I was ahead because I knew a lot of that stuff. But then at the end it was like they kept getting more and more intensive as you went along in the course. Right. So you did your course in 12 weeks. Yeah. The way that it's done now, as I'm sure you're well aware, you can do it at your own pace. Yeah. And to be honest, that was a little off putting for me to sign up because I wanted to get it all done in that 12 week block and be able to have a live interaction and so forth. I really struggle with doing things at my own pace. I sort of have to pick it up for another three months. One of the beauties of the course is actually being able to have that interaction with. Agile at any time, right? Just booking. Oh, yeah. And like, like we would have a weekly call so you could submit questions and beyond. And I, I don't think I ever missed any of them. Like, again, I was like, if I'm paying this, I'm getting everything out of it. And I luckily won like an extra one on one phone call with her. So with it too, came with the one on one calls, which were fantastic. Um, They were so great. And then the other reason why too, that I wanted to do it was pitching. I like, how do you pitch? How do you, that was my main thing of like, how do I get into Target? How do I get into any of these places or, or the whole idea of licensing? That was one thing. I had no idea how that works. So that was really eyeopening and very important. And just the fact that she can connect you with. Pitching was like, so I was like in my mind to value, you know, doing the value evaluation of it, of like that, that alone was worth like so much to me, like of, of what I paid into it, of like, he's connecting with real people in the industry. So I keep hearing that from a lot of course, it's actually that the TCA virtual pitch event was just so critical, so fundamental to the success of their business and where they're at now. Well, and two, then it gives, it gave me the confidence of like, okay, I, because she kind of hooks you up with who she thinks, and there's only so many time slots, and she's like, I would have liked you've done this one, but. We're limited. I was like, Oh, well, I can now feel confident to pursue that company on my own because I was forced to do my sizzle video, forced to do these things that I had to have ready. So now I feel more prepared having gone through it with her, um, with whatever results I had. Still to be determined, but that to me was the same thing. Like, we're so much value because otherwise you have no idea how a pitch event is supposed to go. Would you know that? Yeah, for me, that was just phenomenal. Two questions to come off the back of that, then how have you increased your list of contacts? Has TCA helped you to develop that list even more? Or do you think you're on track with that before you started? I didn't really have a list. It's one of those things that I work on. Retailers, I'm, I'm pretty good at finding and getting into, and I'm very persistent. Um, like the boutique ones that she likes to call them, the small mom and pop shops. My bigger ones, like trying to pitch to get a license deal. Those are ones where I have to, you And did you understand the importance of pitching before doing TCA, or do you at least feel like you acquired so many new skills and lessons out of that, that will help you to pitch in the future? When you start with her class, she's like, are you an entrepreneur? Are you the three different buckets? And I was like, well, I'm kind of both the entrepreneur and it's even called right now, but like wanting to license my deal, I don't want to work for a toy company. So we're kind of, I'm in both of those kinds of spots. So I'm in retail, we self published, but I'm like, it'd be great. I'm like, Oh, I can actually pitch this and somebody can pay, pay me a small percentage. Like, and people are like, why would you do that? I'm like, well. Because I only have so much time with my busy day to be able to really grow my business. So that's when like, Oh, I can actually pitch this to Hasbro and they could pick it up and pay me. So that was another reason too. I was like, I had no idea that that was a possibility or how to go about it. So that was. Again, crucial, I think, of the whole experience of just knowing how that function works within the industry. Having completed the course, where do you think your business was at from week one to week 12? How did it grow in that time, or how did your perception of the way that things were meant to change and evolve and grow, did that change? Didn't really change the trajectory of the business. Because it's like to feed the business, I have to keep going into retail. So that keeps going of me trying to find more retailers. And she is jealous, like, wow, like you do this on your own before kind of knowing I'm like, I kept I just go after people to like, and get them to get my game in their store. And then once I kind of get the confidence of, hey, they keep rebuying. So people are buying my game. But it was really the trajectory is to to get somebody big to pick it up and get into a Barnes and Noble. So that I think was without the course. Wouldn't, wouldn't happen or won't happen. So now I know I, I'm like, I have the confidence to go do that and find it. So other than the TCA virtual pitch event and lessons on pitching and so forth, what were some of the other key things or the most memorable things that you got out of doing Toy Creators Academy? A lot of it too is just the camaraderie of people that were in my class. Some people were very vocal. Some people have these, you know, completely different ideas. But then there was a few that like I connected with that we keep in touch with that we pitched at the same day. So it's like, Hey, what'd you hear? You know, and kind of, it's really the support of it also, which is great. So like that, I had a question the other day about follow up from getting ghosted from. From, um, people I've pitched to. So just having that whole community on Facebook of now it's hundreds of different people who've gone through the class who can share experiences and, and I've met some at different conferences at, um, Gen Con's a huge game convention in Indianapolis. In one of the previous course. She got picked up and got a license deal. She's like, Hey, she posted, Hey, I'm Ben Conn. So I went and met her. So just like meeting the people and talking and sharing ideas and just helping that learning curve of everything else, you know, production. I'm like, what, what did you get for your percent of when you sold your game? So it was just, it's just. The whole world together of like all these different creative people that we all are kind of doing similar but different things. It's just, I think that's even, it's great as well. It's like a mother's group when you have a baby and you join a mother's group and you really have no idea what you're doing, but at least you're all in it together and you're feeding off each other and you know. Right, and everybody's so helpful and so supportive in every aspect. It's such a great community in general. How long is it now then since you've completed Toy Creators Academy? Thank you, Chris! August, we finished the class and then we did the pitching and like end of August into September. So that that's like for four months now. Yeah. And do you still keep in contact with the gel? Does she still reach out to you? Or do you feel like you can still just call her up at any time? And I don't know if you can call her at any time, but she had sent out an email today about a topic and I responded and she responded. Wrote back, but, and she does have different levels of communication and helpfulness, I guess, or helpful, where she'll work with you to, to move your game along quicker and faster, or toy. It's still a pathway to connect, and there's still opportunities and an avenue for you to keep moving forward, even beyond TCA and just finish, you know, once you complete. Oh, yeah. And same thing. She's in the Facebook group all the time. So if you post something, she, she responds. In the Facebook group, probably more so. What does 2024 have in store for Race to Stupid then? What, what's next for you? We're actually, um, working on a new game. So that's for playtesting a Christmas themed game. We're still working on a title. Um, it kind of spins off of our pirate game where you, our pirate ship game is called Pirate Blast, and you're trying to blow up each other's ship. It's a card game. We have a ship made of cards, and you're trying to cover each other's ships in cannonballs. And there's monkeys that throw cannonballs around and just interactive and fun, simple, easy. So we want to do a Christmas theme, kind of similar thing, but you're trying to decorate your tree so then you can sit back and relax and enjoy the holiday. So that's our focus right now is tweaking that a little bit. And we're also going to re, not re brand, but re box our pirate ship game. We did like a 500 unit run. And you know, same thing you learn along the way, like, Oh, maybe a little chunkier box would be better. It's going to sit, again, things that you learn on the thing, like, on the class. Oh, it's going to get, take more shelf space, and all these things, but it looks a little bit bigger and it's more quality versus a really thin box. So things like that, we're retweaking that game. Um, cause we did a short run of it and we're just about out. So we're going to relaunch it this year. So those are our two big excitement things for this year. Somebody that hasn't got that far yet in terms of packaging, is it easy to do that? Like once you've Spent all of that time and investment into developing your packaging. How easy is it to, to change up the packaging? Not that hard. Honestly, the manufacturers want to help you so much. We did a big game convention in Philadelphia called Packs Unplugged. It literally will come up to you and be like, here's our information. What can we do to get your business? Like, you know what I mean? We'll be competitive. They send you the templates, like. They make it really easy. And then it's like, okay, I had this size, this thickness of card. Like, you know, learn GSM, what that meant and everything. And they're like, I'm like, well, I want a little bit better. Okay. They're like quick to give you new quotes and they're so helpful because they want to give you a good product. So it's not really that intimidating, honestly. Yeah, they can't be more helpful. It's something I should have asked earlier in the interview. I'm just curious to know, like, how do you and your sister work the business? What's your sort of structure? Like what, you know, like here I am, Marie, an equal partner in the business. We are 50 50 partners. I always say I have, I'm even, even though I'm the younger sister, I always say I have the final say that I get, I get, I'm the high breaker, but we are very, listen to what each other say, we will argue for something we're passionate about or let go of something that really doesn't make much sense. But I always joke. It's like, I'm the CFO. Like she, I'm kind of broad picture. She's Kind of brings me down into fine detail sometimes or typos. That's like me. I'm just like, I type away. And she's like, do you see all these titles? I'm like, I don't like, so we're a good balance for our company of, of how we kind of both think and do things. We're both the creative ends in different. Perspectives of like, sometimes I'll have the big giant, I'm like kind of a big giant idea and then she kind of reigns it in. Did you both do Koi Creatives Academy or just you? No, just me. Um, but at one time she came in on one of the phone calls with the Jal. Again, my schedule is very flexible. She's a veterinarian, she's in surgery and doing, you know, all kinds of stuff. So she has a very rigid schedule that very. Rarely ever worked out. So one Friday, we actually had a one on one call with Dajel, which was great. I'm wondering, what advice would you give to others who might sort of be teetering on the idea of joining Toy Creators Academy? Definitely well worth it. Um, just the connections alone. I'll hear on different podcasts, oh, there's a course at some university, but I'm like, who's gonna do a university course on games? You know what I mean? Like, especially, I'm not going back to college or anywhere near that school. I don't know where else you could learn the things that she teaches us, honestly, in one solid place. Yeah, I did hear another former student somewhere along the line say that she'd also done an MBA and she felt like most of the lessons that she learned were comparable to everything that was taught in Toy Creators Academy, and that was a real eye opener for me, and it's something I'm coming to learn as well, like, Where I was hesitant to, to enroll because of the work at your own pace element, that actually is the better way to do it. Yeah, I think so. I, I, in my back thought I would have liked to have done it that way. It would have, but I was also, I really wanted to pitch. And didn't know that she was changing the format, so I'm glad I did it the way I did, but if I had a pick, I would like to have done it at my own pace, I think, just because my career and everything else. I need to get my hands on some of your cards for sure. I think they'd make an awesome thing to have in my handbag when I'm traveling with my kids or even my husband. Sit down and pull out the cards. Pirate Blast is a really good, easy grab and go game. It's very small size, like an UNO deck kind of size game. Um, it's, it's super fun. And you sell them on your website as well. Through the website. We sell Race is Stupid on Amazon in the US. Again, one of those things I learned of safety testing, what age to put on your game and things like that, too, that, that made a big difference of, of, uh, our next round of pyroblasts will be safety tested with different manufacturers, and then we can sell those on Amazon as well. Do you ship to Australia? I will ship special to you, for sure. Oh, that's wonderful. All right. I will check the shipping rates to Australia. Yeah, well, you don't want to do it the other way, because the shipping rates from Australia out of the country are horrendous. Oh, really? Oh, unfortunately, yeah, we're a little bit up against it down here in the southern hemisphere, but you know, where there's a will, there's a way, right? Carrier pigeon, I'm just strappin on. And I'm your way. So your website for anybody that wants to check out what you do, your games, where to buy your products. And of course that super cute little photo of you and Marie. With our rabbits for Easter. I think that was an Easter photo of us. Um, Race to Stupid is, is our website. It's pretty much everything. Media is Race to Stupid. Cathy, so much for your time. It's honestly been such a thrill to talk to another TCA er. And I hope we'll get to catch up again at one of the events down the track. Thank you. It's been wonderful. Thank you. Well, there you have it, toy people. That was this week's special episode of Making It In The Toy Industry, profiling one of the Toy Creators Academy course graduates, Kathy Tenaglia. If you enjoyed today's episode, you can see more at thetoycoach. com forward slash podcast. And if you love this podcast and you haven't already left a review, What are you waiting for? Your reviews are not only greatly appreciated, but they're a great way for other people to know if this podcast is valuable and also worth listening to. Everybody's favourite toy coach, Gishelle Wade, will be back here behind the podcast mic next week, with another episode of Making It In The Toy Industry. But until then, in the words of the great lady herself, see you later toy people.