Separating From the W2 Race ft. Lon Stroschein

After 20 years of climbing the corporate ladder, Lon Stroschein traded his impressive title, corner office, and executive salary for a new passion he had yet to discover. Now the former Raven Industries executive is helping others navigate what's next by leaning into the uncomfortable — but necessary — conversations.

Learn more about Lon and Normal 40.  

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Transcript

- For you to get to where your gut is telling you, "Go do this," something's got to give.

- Yep.

- Something has got to give. And it won't be obvious, it won't be easy, and it won't be free. It's a trade. [upbeat music]

- Welcome to "Common Cents on the Prairie," a podcast dedicated to helping you demystify the sometimes complex topic of money. I'm Adam Cox, head of Wealth Management for The First National Bank in Sioux Falls. We're a community bank based out of South Dakota. In this podcast, we share expert insights from around the country and stories from our local community to arm you with the tools you need to make better financial decisions. Because the truth is, the more we talk about this stuff, the better off we're all going to be. [upbeat music fading] Today I'm joined by Lon Stroschein. Lon is the founder and CEO of Normal 40, a movement that inspires people to declare their future and provides the tools to chase it. In 2022, Lon left his corporate job on a hunch that the world was asking more of him. Without a resume, a business plan, or independent wealth, but with the support of his wife and family, he separated from the W2 race. Then, on another hunch, he launched Normal 40. Since then, Lon has conducted and gleaned wisdom from hundreds and hundreds and counting of one-on-one interviews with men and women experiencing the biggest transition period in their lifetime. These conversations and the hard choices we all eventually face became his motivation for his book, "The Trade." Lon's mission is to inspire the change in 1,000 lives. He'll know he has been successful when he has a thousand notes of thanks from people who have been impacted by that change. Lon is a pilot and loves to spend time traveling with his family and getting dirty on the family farm near Warner, South Dakota. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Lon Stroschein. Lon, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for joining me.

- Adam, it's so cool to be here, man. Thanks for having me on your show.

- Yeah. Happy to do this. Been looking forward to this conversation for a while. Before we dive into the heart of what I want to talk about today, which is a lot centered around your book "The Trade" and the work you're doing, I'd just be really interested to get a little bit of your background story. You're a farm kid from South Dakota, right? So now you're living in Florida, so like, fill in the blanks. How did we get here?

- Yeah, look, I start every conversation without apology that the fact that I'm a South Dakota farm kid. I'm the fourth-generation product of a farm that's still in the family, a farm that my sister and brother-in-law operate, a farm that my parents still live on, a farm that in 48 hours from now, I'm going to get on a plane and go to and have one of the best weeks of my summer.

- Heck yeah.

- And that's just how it is. The farm is part of me. And you'll probably hear me say throughout this podcast that everybody needs a place. That place can be a park bench, that place can be your couch, that place can be someplace out in nature. My place is the farm. It's where I go to reconnect with me. And so it's not something I act, it's not something I fake. It's purely a part of me and I love it. So I grew up on the farm in South Dakota. I went to college at South Dakota State University thinking I was going to go home to the farm. I'd imagine that's a part of the onion you're going to ask me to peel back later.

- Sure am.

- My phone rang, I had an opportunity to go to work for a U.S. Senator, I did that. Five years later, I had an opportunity to go to work for about a $2 billion bank at the time. It's much larger than that now. And I got to be in finance for five years doing a lot of what you're doing. I created a private wealth group. One of my clients was the incoming CEO of a public company, and he pulled me out of the bank and said, "I'd like you to travel the world and set up distribution for public company." I didn't think that would happen again. I said yes. I did that for 14 years. Fast forward. February of 2022, I decided my work there was done. I'd given all I could give it. I had taken all I could take from it. I was doing good work, some of the best work in my lifetime, but my work there was done. And I had to go find out what was next. And the only way I knew to do that was to leave. So I separated, not knowing what I was going to do. I went to LinkedIn, wrote a post about what I did, and my life changed when busy executives and professionals from around the world sent me emails saying, "How'd you know it was time? How'd you know it was enough? How'd you know that you'd be okay? What'd your wife say? What'd your boss say? What was the process you went through?" All of the things. And that was the first time it dawned on me, Adam, maybe I wasn't alone. Maybe there's more to this than I thought. And I just kept leaning into it. And fast forward two and a half years from then, I've created a business around it. I've created my entire lifestyle around the premise of helping people through this transition they didn't see coming, they don't want to have to own, they don't know how they're going to get through, they can't talk to anyone about, so they call me, some dude from the internet, some guy they have no idea how got in their newsfeed. And that's what I do now, man. So I could do this job from anywhere. My wife and I decided we're going to do what we do, which is take a risk. We moved from South Dakota to Florida. And here we are, been here three weeks.

- Well, whirlwind. Okay, so there's so much there. I think I want to start here. So your book, "The Trade," rightfully so, it kind of centers around the process that you were going through as you were deciding to leave the corporate grind for your newest adventure. But one of the things that struck me, and maybe because I'm just intimately aware of farming and farm families and the legacies to South Dakota, my folks were farmers, and my experience has always been there's at least one child in the farm family that is expected to pick up the baton, keep the farm in the family, and to keep it going. And from what I understand, Lon, that person was you. And so you talk about the trade of going from corporate to what you're doing now, but in my mind, I thought, "That was kind of your first trade," wasn't it? Of deciding not to go back to the farm after college and take a different path.

- Well, you summarized it beautifully. There is a thing that happens in multi-generational family businesses, especially I would say multi-generational family farm businesses. And one of the things that happens is one of the kids becomes the one who is going to be the one to take over the farm. In my case, and I think in most cases, it wasn't my parents whoever said, "Oh, it's going to be you and it's not going to be you." I've got three siblings. And it was never that, it was never that. It was just kind of, it all happened naturally. I've got a brother who's an attorney, I've got a sister who lives outside of the country, I had another sister who was on a different career path. And I was going to be the farmer. I was the first one to buy and own and keep cattle, I was the first one to buy and own- Buy and rent, I should say rent land, for the cattle. And I was an operator. It wasn't something I was thinking about. It wasn't something that I was just going to be gifted. I was incoming, I was part of the operation.

- Yep.

- And that's why I started out university in Aberdeen at Northern State, and I did that so that I could continue to farm. Well, that was a bad decision for me because it was just an extension of high school and I was going down a very bad path. And I'll talk about that path if you want me to, but it was very bad.

- Sure.

- It was just not a healthy lifestyle. There's nothing good about it for the long term of me. And thankfully, I was smart enough to know that the best thing I can do is get a little bit further away, which wasn't a bunch further away, it was two hours down the road to South Dakota State from where I grew up, and get a degree in agriculture so that I could come home and treat the family business like a business. That's what I did. So I transferred, I went to South Dakota State, and that was my plan. I graduated from South Dakota State with an ag business degree with a minor in economics with the thought I was going to be a farmer. Well, then January before our May graduation in 1999, my phone rang, and it was, there's ripples you put in the world and once they're in the rear view mirror you can kind of piece them together, but at the time they didn't make any sense to me. But it was a United States Senator's office saying, "Hey, we got your name. We've got an opportunity for someone to travel with a senator when he's back to travel for the senator when he's got to be in D.C. and kind of be his representation, but then to help draft ag legislation because there's a Farm Bill due. And we got your name and we're wondering if you're interested." And I remember the little apartment I was sitting in in Brookings, and I remember staring kind of blankly after the phone call, the original phone call, and this is really dating myself here slightly, but it's before you really relied on email to have a good dialogue about real life matters. And so the phone rang and I'd answered it and I wasn't really expecting it. And I got off the phone and I set it down, and I just kind of stared at it. And I'm like, "What am I going to do with this, really?" And so I didn't tell my parents that the call happened. And I decided to enter the process for the job. And I'll cut to the chase, I get offered the job, and then I had to tell my parents.

- Yeah.

- And by then, the decision for me was made. And the best thing about the decision, Adam, is that I was allowing myself to be excited about it. It was an adventure. It was mine, it was new. It's something that I was going to go chase and just see what it was. And it was awesome. And so I didn't want to tell my parents over the phone, and so I drove to the farm. And I really kind of expected, I really did, I expected that my parents would be thrilled for me. And because it is exciting, I mean, you kidding me? A 24-year-old farm kid going to work for a U.S. senator? I mean, it's kind of a deal.

- Yeah!

- And I went home and I told my dad, "Hey, I want to talk to you." And he came in to the kitchen table and he could kind of probably sense something. And I sat down, I said, "Dad, here's what happened." And I walked him through and the process, and, "Here's what I'm going to do and here's the opportunity I have, and these are the things I get to experience and this is the travel I get to do and here's the people I get to work with." And he started crying.

- Yeah.

- And it wasn't until then that I realized, "Yeah, I made a trade." I mean, that wasn't the language I used then, but it wasn't until then that I realized trades have ripples. And now my dad had something else he had to navigate, with who is going to take over the farm. What is going to happen here? And fast forward another decade, and my dad was too young to retire at that point, my sister stepped in. And she and my brother-in-law are operating the farm. And it worked the way it's supposed to work. But you're right. That was the first trade. It's the first time I saw my dad cry. And it was the first time I realized that trades have ripples.

- All right, I want to fast forward a little bit to your second trade. So when I was reading your book, Lon, there was one passage I probably read three or four times because I just think if I could pull anything out of the book, this was the most impactful paragraph for me. And maybe it's one you've even forgotten about, but for me it kind of gets to the heart of what people are thinking about, what people are struggling with, even the people that are the most successful people that you know have these nagging feelings. And so I'm going to read it to you, and then I'd like to get your feedback on it. So it goes like this. "From the outside perspective, my life looked as good as it gets. Career-wise I had flourished, consistently landing rewarding, stimulating work opportunities. I loved my coworkers, admired my boss, and had some financial security. I had a collection of great friends, had a great marriage, and was raising a wonderful family. I should have been on my knees giving thanks to everything that had come my way. I was fortunate and by every traditional benchmark firing in all cylinders. I had the life almost anyone would have traded for, but it was not enough, or better still, it was not all there was. Incompleteness nagged at me. Did I want to stay put for the next 10 years and beyond? Was that my calling? To stay?" So I imagine when you were feeling this line, you had to have some pretty incredible internal conflict. And I know you're not alone in this and we're going to talk about that, but how did you process that?

- Well, I processed it like I think a lot of people do. I processed it by avoiding it.

- Yeah!

- I mean, you think about a career path, and I'd imagine you're the same, and I think probably anybody who listens to a podcast about common sense and about leadership and about growth and all those things, anybody who listens to a podcast like this probably shares some similar traits. The first of which is you're a problem solver. You are wired to be the one to solve the problems. And by the way, you know it. And by the way, you like it when your company comes to you and says, "We've got a problem. I want you to solve it." And when you get home and your spouse says, "I've got a problem," you want to solve it. The last thing anybody wants to do, the last thing I wanted to do, let's just talk about me, and I'd imagine this is going to be a lot of the people who listen here, the last thing I wanted to do was bring home a problem to my spouse. I didn't want to come home and say, "Honey, look, I know we've got a lot, but I'm not happy." I know that I told you this is what I wanted to do five years ago and 10 years ago and 15 years ago, and you gave up your career, and I don't want it anymore. That was a problem I was not wired to introduce into our relationship. Not that she wouldn't have accepted it, not that she didn't want it, it's just that I'm the problem solver. I'm not going to be the one to bring home the problem. So I stepped on it. And I tamped it in, and I held it in. And the trade for that was frustration, stagnation, feeling stale, the Sunday pit, knowing I had more to give, but it wasn't going to come out of me where I was, knowing that I had dreams that I wanted to chase, do, pursue, create, and that as much as I wanted the opportunity to do them where I was, they weren't going to be possible. And all of that led to more frustration, feeling more controlled, feeling less free. And it was this spiral that I was wrestling through. And for me, probably one of the best things that happened in hindsight was I was leading mergers and acquisitions for a public company. And rather than being the buyer, which is what I was used to doing, we all of a sudden were put on the other side. we were being courted. We were going through a process whereby there were people interested in buying the company I was working for. And usually as the M&A guy, we don't fare well. Usually the M&A lead on the sell side is a synergy. We're gone on day one. And there was some beauty to that for me, you know? In kind of this weird way. Go back to this paragraph that you talked about. It hit everything I wanted, everything I set out for. Everything I said I would one day have, I had. And now there was a piece of me saying, "Well, when this deal's done, I'm out of here. What a relief to know that. Now I don't have an excuse. Now I don't have a reason to not go do exactly what I feel called to do next." Even though I didn't know what it was, I knew it wasn't there. And so it was kind of this escape, if you will. Well, then this crazy thing happened. The company that acquired us gave me an offer. An incredible offer. An offer that didn't require me to leave. An offer that played to my strengths. An offer that paid me more money, and I was back to where I was. And so I was back to being frustrated and controlled and confused and having so much and feeling so little. And all that leads to guilt because like, "How can you have so much and feel so little? Dude, get it together! Shouldn't you just be thankful?" And so I was working through that guilt and shame. And the funny thing is those of us who are the providers in the home and the climbers and the person I described, we think that we're really good concealers. [Adam chuckling] We think we got it hidden.

- Yeah.

- And the truth of the matter is, I didn't. And the truth of the matter is, anybody who this is resonating with, you don't either. Your spouse is onto you. And my spouse was onto me. We were going to this music concert. I'm a big George Strait fan. In fact, if you're tuning in, I've got a George Strait- There's no alcohol in this, by the way. It's just water, but nonetheless, it's a koozie.

- Yep.

- A huge George Strait fan. It was a bucket list thing of mine to go see George Strait. And because of COVID, it got canceled two years. My wife and I were going. And it was right when I was in the throes of this. Right when I was in the throes of everything I was feeling, didn't know what I was going to do. And on the drive to Minneapolis, my wife taps me on the arm. She goes, "I want to talk to you about something." And look, I've been married a long time, Adam, and never is that a good sign.

- Yeah. Yeah. [laughs]

- I'm like, "Shoot." Like, "Can you gimme a hint?" And she's like, "No, no, I'll talk to you when we get to Minneapolis." All right, so we let it be, let it go, and we went and had a fantastic day. And after the concert, we went to this little nondescript bar and she said, "I want to talk to you about something." "Okay, is this what you want to talk to me about?" She said, "Yeah, this is it." And she looked at me and she said, "I know you're wrestling with something, and I know it's something that you don't know how to talk to me about. And I know you've got an opportunity to stay with Raven and you've got an opportunity to go be a CEO of another company," I had another offer at the time. And she said, "I don't think your future's at Raven. And I don't think your future's at this other company either. I think your future is Normal 40 because you're a teacher and you need to teach. And if that means that we need to sell the house to be able to afford this dream, we'll sell the house. If that means we need to make major life sacrifices, then that's what we'll do. But you need to go do this." And so there I am in this bar crying because my wife pegged me.

- Yeah.

- She absolutely pegged through the frustration, through the fear I was feeling, through the anxiety, through all that. She saw what it was that made me happy.

- Yep.

- She saw what it was that no longer fulfilled me. And she called me out on it, man. She called me out. And it was in that moment, Adam, that these words hit me, which is also one of the titles of one of the chapters of the book. The words came out of my mouth in the middle of this conversation where I said, "You know what, Mindy? Maybe my work here is done. I'm the M&A guy and we're selling. Maybe everything I've come to do for this company, I've completed. I'm not quitting, I'm not leaving people high and dry, I'm not leaving before I should. I'm leaving on time. My work here is done." And in the moment I said those words, I gave myself this weird permission that I didn't even know I needed from myself to go be a little bit selfish, to go figure out who I was going to be next, to go chase what I wanted to do next. And it wasn't until she called me out, she gave me her permission, and I don't mean that in the controlling sense, I just mean in the beautiful, loving, spousal teammate sense of "I'm in this with you" permission. She gave it to me, and then I gave myself permission. And in that moment, my life changed. My life changed. It allowed everything that's happened from that day to this to happen because I gave myself permission and I accepted how I felt, and I gave myself permission to do something about it. And that's what brings us here, man.

- Hmm. That's incredible. From your experience, now, I know you're talking to a lot of people who are in positions like you were, and how common is this struggle, Lon? And secondarily to that, if it is common, how many folks do you think have marriages or family situations that can support and sustain a conversation like that, and maybe a large life change? Because I have to imagine, other than money, and it is probably mostly driven around money, like, "Hey, I'm really successful. I've been working up towards this my whole life. I've got money now. We've got a standard of living at our family." Your wife called you out on it and said, "We're willing to change that as a family for you to be happy and to live the life you want." Like, how common is this? And do you think enough people have permission to do this?

- Well, the first answer is really easy, it is really common. And I named my company Normal 40 because it's normal. It's normal that you're going to get most of what you chased, and you're going to wake up and wonder if this is what your legacy is going to be, the fact that you got here. And rather than let that be the thing that gives you shame and guilt, if you can let that be the thing that's just the reminder that maybe there is another chapter, maybe these are your best days, maybe this is the reason you need and the message you need, maybe this podcast, maybe my voice to your ears right now is the thing that was designed to find you here and encourage you to do something. It's common, Adam. It really is. It's really common. My phone lights up every day. If you want to book a call with me, a free ramble, and I do tens a week, I'm out six weeks from dudes who will never show up on LinkedIn, they'll never like anything I write, they'll never share a post I write, but they're quietly miserable, quietly frustrated alone because they're the problem solver. And they don't know how to solve their own problem, and they don't know who the hell to talk to about it. So there's the first answer. The second answer is tricky. One of the things I ask people when they call me is, "What does your spouse want for you?" And I'm going to assume that I'm talking to a dude here, okay? So let me talk about it like it's a man that I'm talking to. And I'll ask them, "All right, man." So they'll gimme their story and they'll, I call it a ramble because they'll do it, they'll just start unraveling. And it's beautiful in its own little way. And then at some point I'll say, "Okay, what's the dream?" And they won't know. It's a trick question. I know it every time, they're not going to know or they wouldn't be calling me. And then I say, I'll insert the question, "What does your wife want for you?" And here's what they'll say. Almost across the board, they'll say, "Well, 15 years ago she gave up her career to stay home with the kids. We have a lifestyle that we've established. We've got a friend group and we have nice cars, and she's able to stay home with the kids and do some homeschooling and go to all their events and volunteer in the school, and she's got a group of friends that she goes to work out with and she's got this whole life around this lifestyle. And then of course, we have country club memberships and we like that. And we take these nice vacations with the family, and we really like that. And so I think she wants me to be happy." And I say, "Okay, that's really great, but you didn't answer my question, man. You told me that you're frustrated, you told me that you're alone, you told me that you feel like you don't have any control over your calendar, you told me you come home grumpy, you told me that most of the times you're agitated, that your marriage is missing intimacy, and that your core friend group is just guys you go golfing with but don't really talk about life, and you're telling me that what your wife wants for you is a country club membership, a nice house, the ability to hang out with friends and to go on nice trips? And if that's really what she wants-" So I said you're answering the wrong question. You're answering the question, "What does your wife want from you?" Because that's what you assume. But I'm asking a different question. If what your wife wants from you is those things, the country club, the nice house, the nice car, the big vacations, then you don't need me, you need a marriage counselor. But the chances are you've never asked your spouse. Have you ever had the conversation, the hard conversation, the awkward conversation, the one where you sit down and say, "Babe, I'm struggling. Everything I've wanted, I've kind of got. The things that I think I might want, I'm not so sure anymore. And I'm thinking about doing something else. And I really want to know before I do something crazy, what do you want for me? What do you want for me to be doing? What do you see me doing when I'm happy?" That's a different question, man. That's a very different question. And nine times out of 10, Adam, when people find me, they haven't had that conversation with their spouse yet. They assume that the unwritten contract, I've written about this, there's this unwritten contract of the marriage. The unwritten contract that assumes one is going to stay home with the kids and be the one who gets them to appointments, gets them to school, does all the things, takes care of the home, does all that, and one's going to be the climber, the grower, all those things, and there's this unwritten contract that that is what you're going to do forever. And we don't go back to those contracts. We just assume that, "Hey, 15 years ago, she's living up to her contract, she's living up to her end. The kids are doing great. I got to live up to mine." But when you allow yourself to go back and just re-look at those contracts, where you have this conversation, "Babe, what do you see me doing when I'm happy? And can we talk about this?" It changes more than what you view about what's possible for you professionally. It changes the happiness you have with your marriage intimately, because now you have this intimate conversation, you have a teammate who understands where you are, and you can navigate this together. I wish I would've had the balls to tell Mindy, or ask Mindy, "What do you want for me?" She did. She had the courage to call me out on it. And my wish for everyone who's listening is that you muster the courage. If I'm describing you, that this is where you're at professionally, muster the courage to have the conversation with your spouse. Because they know it. They'll be surprised when you bring it up, and it will lead your relationship and your future in a very different direction.

- I'm going to go on a limb here and say one of the pushbacks, or one of the things people might think of would be only financially successful people with a large nest egg or independently wealthy people could afford to make a change like this. How do you think about that?

- Yeah, I get that a lot actually.

- I bet.

- Here's the interesting thing. And I've talked to hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people from the entire spectrum. Men, women, different countries, and certainly different financial means. And if I talk to somebody whose household income is $75,000 a year, and in the next conversation I talk to somebody whose household income is $500,000 a year, the conversation is identical. When I talk to the person who's making 50,000 to 75,000 a year as a household, they still feel the same things. They still have the same urges, have the same calling, still feel like their best days are here, still like their biggest contributions are right in front of them. And they look at the person who's making $500,000 a year and say, "Well, it's easier for them. It's easier for the person who's making the money because look at all the money they have made. Look at all the time they've had to invest and save and do the things that I can't do. It's easier for someone with more money to do this. So I'm the victim, I can't do this yet." I then talk to the person who's making $500,000 a year and they tell me, "Hey, look, my best days are here. My best work is in front of me. My legacy work is still inside of me. I want to let it out, but I don't know what to do. It's easier for the person who's only making 50,000 or $70,000 a year because they don't have to give up this big paycheck. They don't have to risk this big house. They don't have to risk the image that I spent the last 20 years building. It's easier for somebody who's not making as much as me." And you know what? They're both right. It's always easier for someone else. But they're also wrong because it's freaking hard for everyone.

- Yeah.

- It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how much you make. This isn't an income conversation. It is a legacy conversation, a passion conversation. And it's hard for every single person who feels it burbling in their gut. It's miserably hard. And you have two choices every time you get up. Do nothing, just like you did yesterday. That is an option. And it might not be the wrong one. Or do something.

- Describe the Normal 40 box for me.

- You set out in your 20s and you kind of, you decide early-ish what you want to do, who you want to be, the person you want to be like, and you start chasing that. For you, it's a banker. Great. You probably decided in college that you wanted to get into finance, you got a degree, you got an advanced degree, you went and got an entry-level job at a bank, and you kept climbing and growing and moving up into banking. Wonderful. Same is true for a colonel in the army who decided at 17 to enlist. The same is true for the doctor you might go see later today. They decided at 17 they want to get into med school. Same is true for the attorney that's going to help you draw up your business papers. They decided at 18 they wanted to get into law school. Same with an architect, same with all of us. We decided a long time ago when we were really different people what in the hell we wanted to do. Fine. Great. In fact, spectacular. It's not a curse, it's a blessing. But we decided a long time ago. So you climb, you claw, you grow, you push. And in the process, you build around you, you build around you all of the things that make you who you are. So for example, you create this, you earn this title and you've got this title and people who work in this business and you've got this nice fancy title, and you work for it and you've got it, and you should have it. And you're doing good work. And because of where you are and the company you work with, you've got great associations. You've got great associations just by not even your name necessarily, but the title you have in the company you work for. That's fantastic. You've got a reputation. You've got this image that you've manufactured. It's not an accident. You've manufactured this image, this thing that you want other people to believe you are. That's not a bad thing. It's a real thing. We all do it. Spoiler alert, I've done it. You're doing it too. This image that you want the people outside of you to believe that you are, and then you're safe and you've got your confidence. And all of this kind of works you into this box. And when you get to this place where you're like and you think, "Maybe I want to do something else," Well, which of those boxes? You got to knock a wall down to get out of this box. Are you going to give up your title? Are you going to give up your associations because now you don't have that title? Are you going to give up your reputation? No, probably not. You don't have to. Are you going to give up your compensation? Maybe. Are you going to have to put your image at risk? Well, maybe. Is it going to shatter your confidence? Are you going to take on some fear? Is it going to be less safe? And you don't even realize it, but everything you've chased along the way has built up this box around you and you realize, "If I want to get out of this box, I got to give something up." That's the whole premise of "The Trade." For you to get to where your gut is telling you, "Go do this," something's got to give.

- Yep.

- Something has got to give. And it won't be obvious, it won't be easy, and it won't be free. It's a trade. And so this is the box we wanted in, man. It's the box, 10 years ago we saw other people in and I was like, "God, gimme some of that, baby. I want in there." But little do you know then that you do know now, they were feeling then like you feel now. Maybe they did something about it, maybe they didn't. But that's the box.

- Yeah. So if people are feeling that way, they're feeling like they're in that box and they're thinking about maybe there's something else, that's obviously not a riskless decision. One of the biggest risks people will probably go to first is money. What other risks should people be thinking through as they think, "Maybe there's something else for me?"

- There's two things that keep people where they're at, and you're nailing one of them. One is income.

- Yep.

- And that's real.

- Yep.

- That's not a criticism. Of course it is. That's fine. It's good that that's one of the things that you care about because like I said, you're probably the provider. I mean, this is a real issue. And anyone who says, "Don't worry about the money" is selling you something that I'm not trying to sell you. It's real and you need to be okay knowing that that is something, and it'll keep you there. But it will keep you there. Accept that. It will keep you there. So that's number one. The other one though, Adam, is one we don't think about. And it's one I just went off on a little bit ago, and that's your image. I mean, I can't tell you how long my image, let me just talk about me because I get to do that. My image for me as a public company executive serving on a leadership team as a named insider with a nice big office, with this wonderful title on my business card, with a German car in a nice neighborhood in a beautiful family, we didn't belong to a country club, but just because I'm a farm kid and that stuff's not important to me. But these are all the images, these are all the things that I manufactured. They were intentional right down to my title. I negotiated my title more than I negotiated my income. Why? Image. So look, I'm not proud of that, but it was real. And the reason I share it is because that is really a lot of people, they just don't talk about it. So your image is manufactured. And when you get to this place where you're like, "Hey, look, maybe I want to try something else." For me, "Maybe I want to go lean into Normal 40 and just see what happens." I had to give up both. I certainly had to give up my income. That was hard. But that's mechanical. That's like, "Okay, I got some savings. Whatever." But giving up my image? Public company executive, corner office, nice car, big company, all the things, the associations that came with the company. The thing I had manufactured for other people to believe I am? That's hard to give up. And so those are the two things that keep people where they're at. Now, your question wasn't that though, your question is what in the hell do you do about it.

- Yeah.

- And for everyone, it's simple for me to explain and miserably hard for people to do. The simple thing is if you're leaning into what we're talking about, you literally, this is resonating, whoever you are, I'm talking to you. If this is resonating with you to the point where you can't get out of your car or quit your walk because somebody's talking to you, you need to accept that I'm talking to you. You need to accept that this is a message you need to hear. Just accept it. Not for me, accept it for you. Because there's something begging you to do something different, and you got to listen to it. So accept it. Accept. Two, permit. Permit yourself to do something. Now, do something doesn't mean quit. Do something means talk to your wife. Do something means call Adam. Do something means call me. Do something means go have a coffee with your friend that isn't about the Minnesota Twins, about how you're really feeling. Do something that feels a little bit risky outside of your norm, but maybe just maybe helps you understand what it is you're feeling. And in that process, there's going to be some things that just start to unfold inside of you. Once you accept and permit, and accept and permit, and accept and permit, and it's just left foot, right foot, left foot, right foot, you're going to then arrive at this place where, "Maybe I want to try something. Maybe I want to start a podcast on the side, because that fills me up. It plays to my strengths. Maybe I want to coach someone on the side. Maybe I want to go get a coaching certification. Maybe I want to tell my boss that I want to go mentor interns." Whatever! Whatever. It can be a million things. And like I tell everyone of the people who call me and anyone who hires me, I don't care what it is for you. I don't care. I don't get a vote. It doesn't matter to me and it shouldn't. The only thing I care about is that you know what you want to do, that you have clarity on where you want to be in one, two, and five years. I don't get a vote. Nobody else, except for the people you share a room with, share a roof with, get a vote. So all we have to do is unpack that. Sounds easy, does hard. And then we can do it. But accept, permit.

- Yeah. What you're describing there isn't a drastic change. Sometimes maybe it is, and for you it was, it was rip the bandaid off, "Hey, I'm going to go do this full-time now." But for some people, you're right, maybe that is a small step. It's a series of small steps to wade into that to say, "Is this something I really want to do, a change I want to make?" And they can test the waters without making a drastic life change and try it on for size, right?

- Oh man, I'm so glad you brought this up. This is really important. It probably looks like in October our company transacted, and in February I left, and that's the end of the story.

- Yeah.

- No way. My story started in December of 2019. My story, when I'm talking about the things I'm feeling, 2019, the feeling frustrated, feeling controlled, unhappy, lost, guilty, annoyed, caged, distracted, angry, all those things. That was 2019 Lon. I didn't leave till 2022. I don't want anyone to think that this was something where there is a magic potion that I just one day woke up enlightened. Baloney. No way. I wrestled with this for a long time. I didn't know what it was! I just thought I was alone. And so what did I do? I accepted and permitted, and then I explored. Number one in the book, if you read the book, that's the first thing you do. After you accept and permit, then you got to explore something. You got to do something! You actually have to do something to ever... You don't have to quit in order to start, but you do have to start if you ever want to quit. And so I was going through 2019, I decided, "Hey, look, I love mentoring people. I'm going to go get you my executive coaching certification and just see what happens." And the interesting thing is I could say, "I'm going to become an executive coach inside of my company," which was true, but it was also safe.

- Mm.

- Nobody was going to judge me for that.

- Yep.

- Nobody was going to think, "Oh, Lon might not be happy at work because he's going to go get a job that could take you somewhere else." No, my message was, "I'm going to do this for the betterment of my company." And while true, also safe.

- Yep.

- There again, goes back to that image, it's real. I wanted to maintain the image of, "I'm in control. I got this." So look, I'm so glad you brought this up. This is a long process. And you're going to listen to this two or three times, you're going to read our posts, you're going to see some things before you finally act. I know that. It's the long game for me. I'm just chipping away at you. And chip, chip, chip every day. And one day I'll hit bone, and then you'll finally do something. But it's a long, long process. Now, what I've been able to do is help people turn that from a three and a half year process into about a six month process because I can help you shortcut a bunch of these things that I stepped on the rake 15 times for.

- Yep.

- But it's a long process, man.

- Okay. Well, so let's touch on that. What are you doing today and how fulfilling is it for you?

- One of the things I encourage people when they do finally get to this place, where they're like, "I'm going to separate," or, "I'm going to take a sabbatical," I tell everyone to give themselves 100 days. You have to take 100 days off. And I'm to the point now where I challenge people who probably aren't going to leave anytime soon to find a way to take 30 days off. Because you need that more than you think. But take 100 days. Take 100 days because you're going to go through detox. Corporate detox. And until you've gone through it, you won't believe that it's real and you won't understand it until you do it. But you're going to go through corporate detox, where the first 30 days feel like vacation, the next 40 days feel like pure panic, like, "What in the hell am I doing? Who do I think I am? How can I just have quit my job? I've got to go get the next thing. It's the Valley of Death. You rush into something you shouldn't." And then the last 30 days, you finally learn what you sound like when you get to sound like you, and you can approach life with some level of clarity. But you get through that point, and that's the point in which you finally have some ability to understand what it is you used to love, what it is you still love to do, and who it is you want to help next. And man, when you get to that place, it's really fulfilling. Let me answer your question now, what in the hell am I doing now? I didn't know the day I left, Adam, what I was going to do.

- Okay.

- But what I did is I took 10% of my net worth and I took it out of retirement because I knew if I was going to have to live off of the money I put away for the last 30 years, the money that I called retirement, the money I wasn't going to touch for 15 years, if I started pulling something out of there every month, it was going to pain me and I was going to rush into a bad decision. And I had one rule for myself. "Don't make a — job for Lon.”

- Yeah. [laughs]

- "Don't do it." So I took 10% of my net worth and I took it out of retirement. Yep. Out of retirement. Every financial planner would tell you, "Don't do it."

- Yep.

- I did it. I took it out of retirement and I put it in a completely different account and then in a different bank, and I said, "This is the bet on me fund. This is the bet on my next chapter fund." And what I did is I just gave myself permission to show up curious for people. And what I learned is there's a lot of us. And what I learned is they need a guide. They need a place to go where they can feel like they don't want anybody to know, but they don't have to feel alone. And so I've leaned into that, and my business now is to, I've got a community called The Insider, and there's 140 of us in there and we show up there. I'm in there tomorrow for an hour. And we just show up, and it's people on this journey, man. They're either a year out or a year after and all points in between. And that's part of my job. And I really just help people navigate. That's it. So my day is a lot of time on the phone. I do some public speaking. And I just help people feel normal about this fantastic transition they're about to go through.

- Hmm. Love it. Fulfilled?

- I've got to do some really cool stuff in my life, I feel kind of, I've been dealt some good cards. I wake up every single day and I can't believe that people want to talk to me. It's the weirdest thing, that for people to wait six weeks to talk to just me?

- Yeah.

- But they need someone in their corner. And for some reason, I've been blessed with the good and the bad, the happy and the sad, the hard, the promotions and the demotions, of which I have, and how to negotiate that. And I'm wired in a way to want to show up. And when I do, when I get to use my core strengths, this podcast is a core strength of mine, to talk about what I went through and what people go through. It just is. I didn't ask for it. I didn't even know it was until I started doing it. And I get to do this. And I do another podcast later today. And then I lead a cohort of six incredible people, two are public company executives, three are business owners, and one is a doctor. And we are going through this process called Vintage One. It's my private coaching group. And this is what I get paid to do now. And I've built a life from my passions, and that's what I get to show up and use. And it's not easy, obvious, or free. To get where I am took a lot.

- Yep.

- But it's available to every single person who wants to step into it. I really believe that. And so I am totally fulfilled now.

- That's awesome. Lon, where can people find you? If someone is listening to this and is inspired and want to learn more, where's the best place for them to go?

- Normal40.com. Normal, four-zero, dot-com. I'm on LinkedIn every day. Every single day my process is I get up; I spend some time by myself, thinking; I work out; and I write, and I share it. And it's raw and real and just whatever's on my mind, and that's where I built my entire business, is on LinkedIn and just sharing my thoughts. So you can follow me on LinkedIn or at Normal40.com. I do have a podcast called "The Normal 40 Podcast." And if you're wondering, if you feel like you're alone, go listen to podcast number one there after you finish listening to all the "Common Cents" podcasts, of course, but it really is, I document my journey from the earliest days in my new life. And you can come along for the ride starting with episode one called "The Beginning" and just see what it does for you. But my call out is accept, permit, do something. Just do something. And if you do that, if you make your tomorrow, you act different tomorrow than you did yesterday, next week will be different than last week, I promise you.

- Love it. Let's leave it there. Lon, this was a treat. Your work is fantastic. I love the people you're inspiring, and I love the fact that you're fulfilled doing it. This is a win for everybody. Thank you so much for joining me today.

- Hey, and thank you for putting together this podcast, man. I know that people who don't do podcasts think they're easy. I know they think they don't take work and you can just show up. You and your team did a tremendous job with pre-work. Tremendous job with technology. And I know you put a lot into this, man. So thank you for doing what you do.

- I appreciate that. Thanks so much, Lon. I hope you found this helpful. If you did, please subscribe and share with your family or friends. If you have a topic you want us to cover in future episodes, send us a note through our website. And if you're at the point where you want an expert opinion on your finances, reach out and we'd be happy to start a conversation. And remember, any comments, insights, or strategies discussed on this podcast are intended to be general in nature and therefore may not be suitable for you and your situation, whatever that may be. Before acting on anything we discuss, please consult with your attorney, CPA, and/or your financial advisor.