A Powerful Combo of Proven Tools for Families When Your Child Misuses Drugs and Alcohol, with Dr. Jennifer Fernandez

ABOUT THE EPISODE:

The behavioral symptoms of young people caught up in substance misuse can be disheartening: open hostility, lying, cheating, stealing from family, and others. These symptoms can be hard to view as a result of the substances, and parents may instead blame their child for being “bad.” 

My guest today, Dr. Jennifer Fernandez, is a proponent of a compassionate model that sounds more complex than it is - the "biopsychosocial model." This model aims to contextualize all factors contributing to someone’s reliance on substances - not just genetics. She says this type of analysis can help those who love someone struggling with substances understand behavior that would otherwise seem irrational. And when we know more, it leaves room for the empathy we need to parent young people who can appear out of control. 

Dr. Fernandez is a doctor of clinical psychology and the founder and Clinical Director of the California Center for Change. She’s an expert in CRAFT (Community Reinforcement and Family Training), motivational Interviewing, and harm reduction, a concept many parents struggle with. She oversees psychotherapy and support groups founded on nonjudgmental principles. 

In today's wide-ranging episode, Jennifer and I discuss whether harm reduction is really just enabling, the power of motivational interviewing, what we can learn from a person’s “drug of choice”, and the importance of parents presenting a unified front.

EPISODE RESOURCES:

California Center for Change website

This podcast is part of a nonprofit called Hopestream Community
Learn about The Stream, our private online community for moms
Learn about The Woods, our private online community for dads
Find us on Instagram: @hopestreamcommunity
Download a free e-book, Worried Sick: A Compassionate Guide For Parents When Your Teen or Young Adult Child Misuses Drugs and Alcohol

Hopestream Community is a registered 501(c)3 nonprofit organization and an Amazon Associate. We may make a small commission if you purchase from our links.

Transcript

Jennifer: 0:03

Shame is the most common reason that people relapse or that people misuse because shame is I'm bad. Guilt is, I did something bad. I made a mistake. It's a little more externalized. I can do something about that. But I am bad is a belief about the self. There's something that can become really fixed and rigid about that. If that narrative becomes reinforced internally, externally, culturally, then there's no way out of it. I'm bad. Why even try? I'm just going to fail at that.

Brenda: 0:46

You're listening to Hope's Dream. If you're parenting a young person who misuses substances It's in a treatment program or finding their way to recovery. You're in the right place. This is your private space to learn from experts and gain encouragement and support from me, Brenda Zane, your host and fellow mom to a child who struggled. This podcast is just one of the resources we offer for parents. So after the episode, head over to our website at hopestreamcommunity. org. I'm so glad you're here. Take a deep breath, exhale, and know that you have found your people. And now let's get into today's show. Hey, welcome to today's show. I am so glad you're showing up and taking in all the information from the podcast. Thank you I was talking with somebody for a parenting summit the other day, and she asked me about the origins of the podcast and how I had made the professional transition from advertising to doing what I do now. And I had to laugh because I was so afraid of starting something new at the age of 50. Like aren't you supposed to do those things in your thirties when you've got a long runway ahead of you career wise? Anyway, I shared that it only happened because I was so fired up about bringing trustworthy, credible information to parents. And while I didn't have the professional credentials of being a therapist or a doctor, I did have a PhD in parenting a young person through his addiction. And if I could lean on that and invite experts to share their work and knowledge. I was good with that. So I guess one message here is it's not too late. If you are wrestling with the idea of pivoting in your career or even just in your passion projects or a side gig you've got going on, if something is really tugging at your heart, listen to it. I probably forced my corporate career for about a year too long and that wasn't fair to my company or the clients that I was working with. So. Listen to your gut. Today you get to hear from a deeply experienced and educated individual who I tracked down. God, I love the internet. You can track these folks down. I tracked her down and invited her on the show because she has such a depth of knowledge about addiction, about the community reinforcement and family training. Dr. Jennifer Fernandez is the founder and clinical director of the California Center for Change, a Bay Area psychotherapy group specializing in the treatment of addictions, individual and family therapy, addiction support groups, and psychological evaluations. The team there approaches addiction from a compassionate lens and makes it their mission to be nonjudgmental. Dr. Fernandez specializes in addiction treatment, including compulsive sexual and stealing behaviors, as well as substance use disorders. She received a doctorate in clinical psychology from the California School of Professional Psychology and has trained under experts in the field of addiction treatment at the Harm Reduction Therapy Center and Pathways Institute for Impulse Control in San Francisco, California. While she isn't currently accepting new patients, Dr. Fernandez is available for consultation, evaluations, and she also facilitates training for other professionals. She offers consultations to people who want to learn more about harm reduction and their options for addiction treatment. She also consults with family members who want to learn more about addiction, the change process. And how they can be supportive to people struggling. I can't wait for you to hear this conversation because Jennifer is not only an expert in the craft approach, but also in harm reduction, which I know can be confusing as a parent. We talked about a person's quote unquote drug of choice, what that means and what clues it might give a therapist. She breaks down the biopsychosocial model of addiction in an understandable way. She shares how she helps build compassion with family members. And we talk about the cyclical narrative of shame. It is such a compassionate and educational chat. Take a listen. Here's me and Dr. Jennifer Fernandez from the California Center for Change. Enjoy. Welcome Dr. Jennifer Fernandez. This is a conversation I've been looking forward to because as you know, like I'm a craft lover, you're a craft lover, and it's always nice to find people who Really get it and like, use this in their practice. I'm thrilled to have you here. Thanks for taking the time. Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited for

Jennifer: 6:04

this combo too.

Brenda: 6:05

Yeah. Let's just get a quick background on how you came to be doing what you're doing. I love to hear those little stories, just kind of the condensed, you know, cliff notes version, just to give us a little bit of grounding and how you. decided to become a psychologist. I, I just love these stories.

Jennifer: 6:23

I think I'm just always been fascinated by the brain and was lucky enough to have a psychology elective in high school. So that was kind of my first taste of psychological fearing. And then just thought, sure, I'll do a double major in neurology and psychiatry. Why not? And then got to college and was like, no, no, I'm not doing that. And you know, after having. taken some more undergraduate courses. I was like, Oh, the mind is actually way more interesting than the brain. And so it just kind of, it's always something that's been interesting to me. You know, people are very interesting to me. Relationships are very interesting to me. And then my work with addiction is just such a perfect dance between the mind and the brain, you know, and just kind of came to be kind of the

Brenda: 7:10

perfect fit for me. Very cool. I guess I've never really stopped to think about it. We have a mind that you can't x ray or do an MRI on the body and we have a brain. Oh, that's a little meta. I haven't really thought about that before.

Jennifer: 7:28

Yeah, it's super interesting.

Brenda: 7:30

Where's the mind? We don't know. We don't know. That's fascinating. So interesting. I was curious as I was just looking through your website and on your blog, you had written about why people choose kind of quote unquote their drug of choice. And I thought it was really fascinating because I had never really seen anything on that. Could you talk a little bit about that? Because I think to parents, it just looks so random. You know, it's just like, Oh, all the kids are smoking weed or all the kids are drinking or maybe talk a little bit about what you learned about that and what we, what we should know.

Jennifer: 8:08

Huh. Yeah. It is really fascinating how different factors can shape the development of the drug of choice for a person. Oftentimes I try to look at it from a lens of self medication. So if they're using something like a stimulant. Then I'm thinking about maybe there being some kind of depression or something that needs to be medicated and how a stimulant can be You know an effective not a great medication, but it gets the job done, right? It comes with lots of costs and consequences, but it gets the job done, right? Or similarly, someone who's using depressants, you know, I'm, I'm searching for anxiety disorders. I'm searching for trauma disorders. I'm searching for chronic pain, right? So it gives us some clues based on what's happening chemically in the brain. And then drug of choice can also be relational, right? So we see a lot of people with severe. chronic trauma and turning towards opiates. And so if you understand the experience of being on the drug, right, an opiate experience is very warm, it feels very connecting. A lot of people Say that it feels like they're back inside the womb. Then I'm looking for more of that developmental relational trauma and clues about that kind of stuff. Right. So, you know, the, both what's happening chemically in the brain and also the experience of the drug helps us to start piece together, piecing together exactly what it is that the person is trying to accomplish, because it's an attempt to feel better. Even though. In the long run, it makes things worse or can make things worse, right?

Brenda: 9:49

Right. Right. Well, that makes a ton of sense because you will hear some people say yeah, you know, I have a real problem with opiates, but I can go and have a beer after, you know, a work or whatever, like, and I, and I always found that so fascinating because it's like, but isn't it all the same, but it's not all the same. It's not

Jennifer: 10:09

different sites of action pharmaconetically, like in the brain and then just so many different associations to the different drugs, which do that, like culturally, there are some shared associations, but then there are also a lot of. individual, unique associations. So the relationship that a person forms

Brenda: 10:26

with the drug is infinitely complex. I've heard this before, kind of the biopsychosocial model, but I've never truly understood it. So could you break that down for us a little

Jennifer: 10:38

bit? So yeah, we were already talking about the biological aspects of it a little bit, just understanding like, what are the mechanisms of action in the brain? So, you know, what are the neurotransmitters? that are being activated with the substance use. How does the prolonged misuse of the substance start to change anatomy in the brain, brain structures you know, any other physiological impacts of the drug misuse or just drug use because biopsychosocial can also be a way of helping us understand healthy or responsible. The psychological components then have to do with like maybe what are some of the presenting or underlying issues that the person is bringing to the table. So if there is a co occurring depression, anxiety, trauma, et cetera neurodiversity, right? I work with a lot of folks who have ASD or ADHD and they're trying to manage. The complexities of being neurodiverse in a neurotypical world, right? And then again, back to some of these like associations, right? What's the relationship that's being formed? Do we have other people around us who have modeled the use or misuse of these substances? And that ties a little bit into the social component as well, right? So what are the current laws about the use of this substance? What is the general culture and how this substance is received, right? Cannabis is much more. Permissible now than, you know, if somebody's using fentanyl. Right? Those have two very different cultural reactions. Right. And then social also has to do with like your peer group, the, the subculture of that peer group, how they use the substance, how they relate to the substance. And how each of those facets, your biology, your psychology, and your socialization, your relationships, how all of those are functioning as really related to the substance use or misuse as well.

Brenda: 12:34

Is that something that is helpful to, to explain to them, or is this something that's more of kind of in, in your background as a therapist that you're looking for different cues?

Jennifer: 12:46

It's both. I think it's really helpful for people to understand how integrated. The relationship with the substance becomes, and I think it also is, is a way of like building on the disease model of addiction. Because the disease model is like, it's a brain disease. Yes, there are things happening in the brain, there are changes happening in the brain, there's some theories about whether people, some people may have a dopamine sensitivity, which makes them more likely to develop addiction disorder. But the, I think the biopsychosocial model looks at the whole person and the environment in which that person exists. And that gives us, as a clinician, that gives me more understanding of, you know, what the unmet needs are that this person is trying to sate with the substance use. As a parent or as a concerned significant other. It allows us to have more compassion for that person.

Music: 13:41

Yeah.

Jennifer: 13:41

Right? Like, Oh, wow. Look at everything they're dealing with. It's like, it makes sense that they're reaching for something that makes them feel so good. They're reaching for something that helps them numb. They're reaching for something quick. They're reaching for something easy, you know, and none of that excuses or makes the misuse okay. But I think that compassion, especially coming from a parent or a loved one. It works wonders on the shame that the person with the addiction is always carrying inside them. So I think it can be helpful in many ways.

Brenda: 14:15

Yeah. Well, and that kind of is a nice transition into talking a little bit more about CRAFT and which is community reinforcement and family training. And Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. I had never really thought about compassion being that antidote to shame, but we, you know, and just observing all of the families in our community, shame just plays such a huge role, I think, in staying in that addictive cycle.

Jennifer: 14:44

Yeah, you're absolutely correct. Like shame is the most common reason that people relapse or that people misuse. Right? And so it's, it becomes this cyclical narrative of I am bad because shame is I'm bad. Guilt is, I did something bad. I made a mistake. It's a little more externalized. I can do something about that. But I am bad is a belief about the self. There's something that can become really fixed and rigid about that. And so if a person just, if that narrative becomes reinforced internally, externally, culturally, then there's no way out of it. I'm bad. Why even try? to do something different. I'm just going to fail at that. Right. I'm just going to let these people who love me down again. I'm just going to, right. And so, you know, it's really hard for a person with shame to, to work through that and to start to access the self compassion and to build that sense of that healthy sense of self. So when that's also coming from the outside, it's so much more powerful. This is why groups, why therapy groups are so helpful. Cause it really helps you're getting compassion from other people who are going through the same thing. You're getting compassion, you know, it just, it helps kind of like move through that shame with a little bit less struggle so that you can get to the other side and start to build some healthy ego strength, which is what you need for the recovery process and what you need to be able to sustain change.

Brenda: 16:17

Right. Parents, you know, a lot of times we view this. As a behavior, right? Oh my, my kids smoking weed all the time. And we just want to stop the behavior. And until we look a little bit deeper underneath, like you said, like, why are they doing this and what is it, what is it resolving for them? It's going to be really hard to have compassion, right? Because. Your kid's giving you the finger and they're destroying your property and they're stealing your money and they're, you know, stealing from their grandparents and you're like, are you kidding me? How am I going to have compassion for this person? So it's so hard. It's so hard. So just keeping that mindset of, and I know this is a core tenet of craft of their behavior makes sense. Doesn't mean you have to like it doesn't mean you have to accept it. Right. Right. Right. Right. But it does make sense. And it does make sense. It's a hard one. It's a hard one. Do you see family struggle with

Jennifer: 17:23

this? Oh my gosh. Yes. It's so hard. It's so hard to access that compassion. I mean, it's, it's a practice and I think it's just, you know, working. I think, you know, oftentimes I recommend that parents are getting their own support. Because it is so hard to do this work and the stakes are so high, you know and in the more severe cases, like your child's life. is at stake, right? There's so much overdose happening. And so it's so hard to hold like that sense of urgency for change to happen yesterday and the compassion and the patience that are necessary for the change process, which isn't necessarily quick. No, it's glacial. It is so slow, right? Yeah. Yeah. So I think families often neglected in the addiction treatment world need so much holding through their recovery process. You need a coach. You need support. You need, even if it's just like a, you know, like in your network where you have these peer groups where parents can come together, that's powerful. That's important, right? To not feel alone with the struggle.

Brenda: 18:37

Hi, I'm taking a quick break to let you know some exciting news. There are now two private online communities for supporting you through this experience with your child or children. The stream community for those who identify as moms and the woods for guys who identify as dads. Of course, this includes step parents and anyone who is caring for a young person who struggles with substance use and mental health. The stream and the woods exists completely outside of all social media. So you never have to worry about confidentiality and they're also ad free. So when you're there, you'll be able to focus on learning the latest evidence based approaches to helping people change their relationship. With drugs and alcohol in both communities, we have a positive focus without triggering content or conversations, and we help you learn to be an active participant in helping your child move towards healthier choices. You'll also experience the relief of just being able to be real. Connect with other parents who know fully what you're going through and have battle tested mentors. Alongside you can check out both the stream and the woods for free before committing. So there's no risk. Go to hopestreamcommunity. org to get all the details and become a member. Okay. Let's get back to the show. I know you're also an expert in harm reduction. And I think if there is one topic that is so confounding to parents of young people, it's gotta be harm reduction because it's like, how do I hold both harm reduction and craft at the same time? One. Being okay, they might not stop using, they're going to be safer. And on the other hand, craft is like, okay, we're moving you closer to getting help. So talk us through how those two play together.

Music: 20:33

Mm hmm.

Jennifer: 20:35

I

Brenda: 20:35

mean, you've described my

Jennifer: 20:36

job, right? Like my job is to help

Brenda: 20:39

a person, which I

Jennifer: 20:40

am not envious of. It's the same process in therapy, right? Like you're helping a person move towards whatever their desired outcome is, right? Higher quality of life, improved functioning while holding you know, the, the ways in which they may be getting in their own way or the obstacles that they're facing. Mm hmm. Right? So I think harm reduction really just is a more pragmatic and compassionate approach to addiction. I think it gets a bad rap because people think of it as enabling use or encouraging use or, you know, but really it's just, it would, it's talking to your teens the same way you would about any kind of risky behavior, right? When they start driving. If they're into any kind of extreme sport or something like that, right, you're like, Hey, you gotta wear a helmet and that's the boundary and those are the rules, right? And so with, and, or like with sex, right, teenagers are having sex and how do we talk to them about how to minimize risks and, and be safe? So I think it's, it's just really practical and pragmatic in that sense. How do, how would we talk to them about any kind of risky behavior? And then that added piece of compassion when there is. Some kind of problematic use present, right? Understanding the behavior makes sense. It's happening for a reason. What this person means is more connection, not isolation. You know, again, there are exceptions to that where like if a person is becoming really violent and it's not safe for that, for your child to stay in the home, then that would be an example where, you know, we would recommend, okay, removal from the home is probably the best thing just to keep everybody safe. Right. But most of the time. 95 percent of the time, what the person with the addiction really needs is more, is more connection. And I think it's also harm reduction is like a more realistic understanding and expectation of the change timeline, right? And it is going to be slow. It is incremental. I spend a lot of time just praising and cheerleading and making a big deal about any small change, right? So a person who's drinking every single day, they're like, well, I didn't drink on Wednesday this week. What? That's awesome. Tell me about that. What? What did you do instead? Right? So just really, I'm not focused on the fact that they drank the other six days because I'm trying to help them like, Oh wow, okay, this is possible. How can I build on that? Right? And that's harm reduction.

Brenda: 23:12

Really? We, we talk a lot with craft, at least in our community about, you know, Managing our responses and using, you know, the response gap and red lights and green lights and like all of these tools. And what I don't know that we have really gotten a clear picture of is what does a conversation sound like? Cause clearly the, the goal of craft is I'm moving. Do I at some point just like, is there a little timer that goes off and then I'm like, Oh, today's day. I'm going to say, okay, go get help. Like how does that, how do we start to move the conversation toward that without, Oh, Oh, I'm out of here. I'm not talking about treatment, you know, like how do we sort of warm up to that conversation?

Jennifer: 24:05

Yeah, I would say, and I say this to parents all the time, you lead by following. It's the same in therapy as the, as the clinician, right? So I'm listening for that change talk. I'm listening for ambivalence. So this is where educating yourself on motivational interviewing can be really helpful. And I often encourage parents to do that so they can start to pick up on some of these skills, which are not difficult. To learn so that you're not, you're never bringing up treatment. If you know that your child is resistant to it, you're waiting for them to indicate to you on probably a subtle level, right? Like, oh, I feel so hung over or I really, I can't do this anymore. You know, like I need something to change, right? That, that's more overt change talk, right? Or any kind of ambivalence. Sometimes I feel like. This is really hurting me or, you know, my friends just said something about it, about my drug use, you know, and that's not, that's not for you to pounce on, Oh, time to go to therapy or time to get, go to rehab. But it's again, an opportunity to practice some compassion. Huh? That must've felt disappointing. That must've been really hurtful. What else are you thinking about that? What do you want to do about that?

Music: 25:27

Hmm.

Jennifer: 25:28

Right? So I think you and I have talked about this a lot, is like helping the, because this is going to help with competency and autonomy, which are important elements of change, right? If you look at self determination theory, competency and autonomy are two of the three important factors. And so that's, it's going to help the person internalize, I have the ability to recognize when I need to change. I have the ability to come up with strategies for how to do that. And I have support around me to be able to undergo that change process. So putting it back on them, what do you want to do about that? I don't know. Was that something that you want to help with? Yeah, actually. I could use some help with that long. Let's do it together. Let's sit down together and look up some information on the internet. You know, it's collaborative, it's relational, it's compassionate, and you're helping, you're helping with internal motivation, intrinsic motivation. You're helping develop ego strength, right? There's just lots of good stuff happening in that dynamic. Right.

Brenda: 26:36

And, and we don't actually go there.

Jennifer: 26:39

No, because you're like, Oh my God, I need this to stop now. Like yesterday, I needed you to stop yesterday. Right? And again, it's so hard. You need to be so practiced. I like pulling back and pacing yourself and being patient because as soon as they feel that power imbalance of you swooping in, it's over.

Brenda: 27:02

Yeah. The hand goes over.

Jennifer: 27:05

Yep. Yes. That's amazing. I have small children. I have toddlers. So it reminds me of like that dance with them around power, right?

Brenda: 27:15

yes, exactly. Exactly. Well, you're going to be much better equipped for raising teenagers than most of us. I think a natural response from a lot of, from a parent's point of view would be like, Seriously, you didn't drink one day and you want me to like, be all excited about it and pray, right? Like you go into this kind of snarky, sarcastic, passive aggressive mode.

Jennifer: 27:41

Yeah. I think because parents are so, so tired, they're so scared again. There's so much at stake, right?

Brenda: 27:48

Those it's those little things that sometimes just adding that positive reinforcement I've seen. Can make a world of difference. And sometimes it might just be, they look at you like. What'd you do with my mom? Cause she would have never said that. That's a different response, but it can be so powerful. And I remember seeing that with my son. I don't, I picked up craft way late in the game with, with mine, but I would say, you know, Oh, thanks for not like, Like taking the Xbox controller from your brother when you went downstairs and he would kind of look at me and somehow it just sort of lifted some of the heavy negative, eh, exactly. Always seemed like it was on top of us. It was just always so negative. Exactly. Yeah. It shifts

Jennifer: 28:39

the, the currency in the relationship to be about connecting, to be positive, to be about praise. And again, this doesn't mean that you don't have boundaries. This doesn't mean that there aren't natural consequences for hurtful or undesirable, undesirable behaviors. Right. This is, you're just adding this to your parenting toolbox. Right. And yeah, it just changes the dance in a really significant, like you said, powerful way. And when parents can really do it they'll come back the next week and be like, wow, things have really shifted. And I'm like, great. Let's just keep it up and let's keep practicing and it's not about perfection. You're not going to get it right every time. That's not the point, but let's, let's build on that. That's momentum, right?

Brenda: 29:30

Absolutely. What are some, I'm just curious to be like a fly on the wall with some of your groups when you have parents who are learning craft and what are some of the things that they do come back with like light in their eyes of, Oh, it's working.

Jennifer: 29:47

I think it's, it's really that like the positive reinforcement, right. And, and praising The desirable behaviors really celebrating change they often come back was like, wow, I didn't think it was going to be that effective. But it did really shift the dynamic, like in the moment. And then after a few repetitions, like, wow, we're actually like not arguing as much as we used to. There's less conflict in their relationship than there used to be. And the other one is like help having the, the child choose what the consequence is going to be, you know, so like working with a family who like, doesn't want the child to smoke cannabis in the house. And so they agreed like, well, we don't want the kid to like leave, right? So we'll agree to, they can smoke cannabis in the backyard or something. But the kid was still smoking inside the house and said, okay, well ask the kid what, what should the consequence be? They were like, that's never going to work. And I forgot what the consequence was that the kid chose, but it totally worked. You know, the kid tested that boundary, right? They used inside again, the parents implemented the consequence and like, Oh, okay, well, interesting. It was really, they were like, I don't know why that worked, but it did. You know, that's, it's

Brenda: 31:12

interesting that you say that because that is one of the most common I see our families dealing with is this. They want to smoke in the house. We're saying no smoking in the house. Even if it's, even if it's a vape and we can't smell it, it's not happening in the house. You can be in the garage or you can be in the backyard or you have to go walk around the block. And if the police happen to drive by and see you, you're Then natural consequences, right? It's the ones where it's like, well, it's supposed to be in the backyard and they keep doing it in the house. And then what?

Jennifer: 31:47

I think it's the same. I would ask the teen, like, what do they think is a reasonable consequence? What's a reasonable natural consequence if you're unable to follow this rule? And I think that's also preparing them for the real world, right? Like when they go off to college or have roommates or whatever, they're living with roommates or they're living with a partner, whatever, right? Right, Mike. That's how the world works. Yeah. And I think that's, you know, that's one of our main jobs as parents is to prepare our children for how the world works. We can get really exasperated and overwhelmed and frustrated and then just really want to like come down harshly because we're so exasperated. And I would say that's an indication to a parent that like, okay, it's time for us to take a step back. Try to make this more, a more collaborative process, right? The power imbalance is too much, right? There should be some power dynamic because it's parent and child, but it's, it's too unbalanced.

Brenda: 32:45

The whole stepping back thing feels so hard to do, but also, so it's also so powerful because when you're wound up and you're frazzled and you're, you haven't slept and you haven't, you know, taking care of yourself to try and use some of these tools, I'll just call them tools. It's, it's just. It's not going to work. It's just not going to work. And I know like people get tired of me harping on the self care thing, like self care, but self care isn't just, I'm going to go out and get a massage. It is, I'm going to take a break for 15 minutes. I'm going to clear my mind. I'm going to do these things. How do you help parents who show up in your groups and your office? They're clearly not regulated. They're frazzled, they're stressed out. They're like, right there. Their energy level is like way up here. How do you help them understand the importance of self care asking for a friend?

Jennifer: 33:49

That's a tough

Brenda: 33:49

one.

Jennifer: 33:52

It's like any change process, right? You're listening for the information that they're feeding you about how their current, the way they've currently structured their lifestyle is not working and reflecting that back to them. Right. So in their complaints about being tired, not having enough time with their partner, not having enough joy or pleasure in their life, like, Oh, well, what do you want to do about that? What do you want to change? What's one small thing you can do differently this week so that you have more time, right? Can you schedule a date night? Can you, you know, What's your sleep hygiene, right? Like what's up with your sleep? Like, you know, just kind of helping them deconstruct based on what they're already telling

Brenda: 34:37

you. So you're kind of using craft on them.

Jennifer: 34:41

Yeah.

Brenda: 34:42

And motivational interviewing.

Jennifer: 34:44

Yes.

Brenda: 34:46

It goes many layers deep.

Jennifer: 34:48

It does. It's effective. Yeah. It's effective for lots of things.

Brenda: 34:52

Yeah. Well, it is. And, and often one parent is all gung ho about craft and this approach and they're learning motivational interviewing, they're doing stuff. And the other one is like, Like, are you kidding me? This kid just needs to get his shit together. I just need to get, you know, you're just going to get kicked out of the house, like the hard, you know, hardcore. And so then you've got two completely different approaches to this on either under one roof or even if the kids out of the house and you know, they're going to one for money and because I know the other one's not going to give them money or whatever. What's your approach on that dilemma?

Jennifer: 35:34

Well, that's it. I mean, you brought up a good point, right? I think the approach is to sort of highlight like, well, that hasn't been working to this point. So what is your willingness to try something different? And if you're not willing to try this, what is something different that you're willing to try? And then I think kind of reflecting back to them the way that like when there isn't like when the parental figures are not a unified front. The ways in which the child can very easily exploit and manipulate that. Oh, yes. Right? Just like a two year old. Sure. Yes. So the importance of being unified. And so how do you help the couple, you know, collaborate on how they want to approach this, right? It's parenting. So how did the two of you negotiate other parenting style differences that you had? And what can you bring from that process into this one? You kind of

Brenda: 36:31

forget, right? It's like now that they're 15 or 16 or 20, it's like, oh yeah, what did we do when they were three or four or five? And how did we get through that? So that's a really good tip. I like that one just to go back and what's worked in the past. What's a question that you get all the time that if you could just sit in front of a thousand people and just clear it up once and for all, like, People, let me just tell you this from the seat I sit in and all your education and all your experience, what comes to mind is something that you would want to share. I think the one I get that most often is how long is this going to take? Oh, yeah.

Jennifer: 37:16

You're like, let me

Brenda: 37:16

check my chart over here on the wall,

Jennifer: 37:18

right? Right? Like, so and like, you know, four or five sessions will be done, right? And I'm like, Very unlikely, very, very unlikely. So, you know, I think educating people on the change process and how slow it is, the fact that it is an incremental process, that reversals, relapse is a normal part. Of the change process and encouraging people to just reflect on their own change processes and how they look right. So if you chart, I don't know, you know, maybe you want to, like, work out 3 times a week, you know, like, what does that what has that look like in practice for you? Has it been slow and incremental or there's weeks where you didn't work out and, you know, what did that look like? And I think that can be really helpful for parents and just kind of normalize. Thanks. What the change process is going to look like for their kids.

Brenda: 38:17

Yeah. And especially today when fentanyl is so present, I think there's, I see this heightened, I'm sure you do. I see this very heightened level of anxiety with parents because the kids aren't like it. Yeah. Starting out with a couple of beers at a baseball game or, you know, at the Friday night football game, like they're going straight to pills and you're in San Francisco. So you see this more than anyone. How do you address that with parents? Like just that terror. And the fact that you pair that with a glacial process, like, it just, it's just so hard to accept.

Jennifer: 38:59

It is so hard to accept. I think just that in that way, invalidating how hard it is to sit with that and to try and access the, you know, the states of being that help facilitate the change process, right? Like how in conflict. Those two states of being are and how it's totally normal to feel so much anxiety and fear and overwhelm about the fact that your child is using substances, especially when they're using them problematically. Right. And so having to hold kind of like the dialectical of how, how, like what is a normal response to what is happening and how you need to be in order to help promote the change process they are in direct conflict contradiction. with each other. And again, that's why I suggest that there's, they just get so much support that they're talking about it as much as possible with as many people in their community as they feel safe doing so. Because it is, it's too much for one family to hold, right? It's too much for two currents to hold. They really need to lean. On their community when this is happening.

Brenda: 40:10

Yeah, absolutely. And especially just as big shout out to the single parents out there who are doing this alone. I mean, it is just brutal for them in particular or the ones who really, you know, maybe you haven't involved X, but they're like, well, you deal with it so hard, so hard, just the physical exhaustion of. of parenting, you know, being a single parent and then you layer this on top of it is just so much. So shout out to all you single parents who are listening. What do you know today that you wish you would have known when you started your career in psychology? I didn't

Jennifer: 40:53

realize just how powerful. The relationships were going to be and this is not a bad thing. It's not something I would change, but you know, maybe it would have made grad school a little more bearable or something, but yeah, I always just feel in such awe of the folks that I'm working with, you know, just their courage and showing up in their vulnerability and showing up and just the relationships and the connections that we're able to form through this work is just. It feels really like mystical and magical to me. I know there's science behind it, but right. It's the perfect blend

Brenda: 41:32

of both.

Jennifer: 41:34

It just feels really, really, really special. You know, and I, I feel lucky to be able to, you know, kind of structure my work in a way that I can really I can really be with each of the families and people that I'm working with, right? I'm not, I'm not having to see 40 patients a week or something like that, you know?

Music: 41:54

Yeah.

Jennifer: 41:54

So I can really work deeply with people and I think that's, it's such a gift and so much more fulfilling than I thought. It was going know, I thought I was just going to help people manage their depression symptoms or something, but it's,

Brenda: 42:10

it's, it's turned into a little bit more. Yeah. Well, it sounds like a good place to wrap it up. I will let you get into your group. I know you have people waiting for you, but so appreciate this insight and we'll make sure and get links in the show notes. If you want to find the California center for change and Jennifer and her team we'll make sure and do that because it is, it's just such a gift that you're giving to these families to work with them and, and the individuals that you're working with and really, really changing lives. So thank you for being here. Thanks. Thanks so much for

Jennifer: 42:44

having me. It's always a pleasure to talk about this and talk about addiction in a way that I hope helps lots of folks.

Brenda: 42:51

Okay. My friend, that's a wrap for today. Don't forget to download the new ebook, Worried Sick. It's totally free and will shed so much light on positive tools and strategies you can use right now to start creating conditions for change in your home and in your relationships. It's at hopestreamcommunity. org forward slash worried. And as always, you can find any resources mentioned during today's show at brandiszane. com forward slash podcast. That is where every episode is listed and you can search by keywords, episode number or the guest name. Plus we've created lay lists for you. Which make it easier to find episodes grouped by topic and those are at brendazine. com forward slash Playlists, please be extraordinarily good to yourself today. Take a deep breath. You have got this You are not doing it alone, and I will meet you right back here next week