Interview with Caroline Beste about Love, Leadership & Learning with Horses

This podcast is going to be a little different this time. Writer and author Carolyn Waller is going to be interviewing me, Caroline Beste.

For those of you who know Carolyn as a repeat guest speaker, I don’t need to tell you that she is a fabulous writer and storyteller. Many from our audience have enjoyed listening to her and always want to hear more of her stories and life as one of the few women guest ranch guides.

I hope you join me, Carolyn and Lydia as we dive in deep talking about my life with horses and what they have taught me about love, leadership and confidence.

“You have to grow from the inside out. None can teach you, none can make you spiritual. There is no other teacher but your own soul.” - Swami Vivekananda

May you always be one with your horse,
 Caroline

Transcript

Caroline Beste (1m 4s):
You are listening to Everything Horses & More! Podcast with me, your host, Caroline Beste. I'm the founder of my Tao of Horsemanship method, a pioneer and horse training and development, and a true advocate of the horse. I bring an intuitive and educated eye along with an experienced and intelligent perspective to understanding both horse and human nature and behavior. My experience and skillsets are the cornerstone to my worldwide success in training methodology. My experience with horses as intelligent sentient beings is what inspired me to create my highly acclaimed and proven training method. Consensual Partnership Training for horses and humans.

Caroline Beste (1m 44s):
A model I pioneered in 2008. Consensual Partnership Training provides a comprehensive and impressive curriculum, teaching horse owners how to fully develop their horses using a holistic, empathetic, and natural process. My training system teaches you how to achieve true partnership with horses and without the use of pain, excessive pressure, dominance, force, or coercion. In addition to being a world class trainer for both horses and people, I'm an artist, author, entrepreneur, speaker, radio show host, licensed working equitation trainer and riding foundation specialist, I offer one of the largest and most comprehensive online educational platforms, the do of horsemanship, where I host a variety of courses produced and personally taught by me and my amazing school masters.

Caroline Beste (2m 35s):
In addition to sharing what I know in my in-person training and online courses, I invite special guests and students each month to my radio show, everything, horses and More podcast. This platform allows us to engage with all of you and share our very personal and transformational journey with horses. I invite you to listen in and hope you find something that helps inspire you to reach your personal goals and aspirations with your horse. Thank you. And may you always be one with horses.

Caroline Beste (3m 27s):
Welcome back everybody. You know who I am. I am Caroline Beste. Founder of the Tao Horsemanship, and this is Everything Horses & More! live Podcast. My co-host is Lydia Primavera, wave. Lydia, let everybody know. Yeah. And our guest speaker today is Carolyn Waller. Welcome back Carolyn.

Carolyn W. (3m 50s):
Happy to be here.

Caroline Beste (3m 52s):
Yeah, thank you so much. And don't let me forget, Carolyn, at the end of our podcast, whenever it it ends, I'd love for you to talk about where, and it might just be another email and we can put this information in when the podcast is over, how people can reach you for your books. Cuz you are an author and you have three fantastic books. And I don't know, Lydia, if you have those books with you. You do. Yay. So we'll, I wanna, you know, give you an advertisement there, especially for the holiday holidays.

Carolyn W. (4m 25s):
I need to go get them.

Caroline Beste (4m 26s):
Yeah, why don't you go get them while I'm, I'm rambling on. Okay. All right. Well, today is about love, leadership and learning, or love, learning and leadership, learning how to be a leader. And it is an interview by Carolyn with me about, I don't know, about, about my life, about my work. And we'll see, it can go though the doors wide open. So Carolyn's gonna take the lead today and basically interview me. I chose the title because love learning and leadership is, is life, I think I believe, I so believe and I so live it.

Caroline Beste (5m 12s):
What does it mean? Love? What does it mean learning and, and how does leadership show up in our life? And so, Carolyn, without further ado, I'm gonna pass the, the mic over to you.

Carolyn W. (5m 29s):
And I've been waiting to do this for a really long time. I think most people who have been tuning into this podcast know that we've been actually teasing about me inter interviewing these two. And it's finally here. And interviewing is something I am really comfortable with because as a freelance magazine writer, I've gotten to do a couple hundred interviews. And the beauty of it is, in my writing career, I've been able to choose who I wanna interview and choose what I'm really interested in. And that makes it that much more exciting and fun. And in this case, I really do wanna find out what these girls are all about and what Caroline's been teaching.

Carolyn W. (6m 12s):
And I've got some questions formulated here for the benefit of myself or newcomers for people who are returning. We're gonna get into some nitty gritty today on what makes this woman click. And I'm not afraid asking questions, I can tell you that. So, but let's start, I wanna start by, I, I have some paragraphs here I want to read out loud so that you can get to know some more about this wonderful person here. So Caroline Best is the founder of a world class mastery membership riding foundation program called the Dow of Horsemanship, which includes many enlightening and informative academy horses.

Carolyn W. (6m 52s):
Good for us horse people to know. For those of you who are new to this podcast, here is some information. She is a lifelong equestrian of varying disciplines and a practicing Daoist. Through her experience in education, she has developed an enlightening and proven training method for horses and humans that combines the principles and teachings of the great masters of classical h horsemanship, taoism and Tai Chi. I'm gonna wanna hear more about this. Caroline's desire to share the success of her learning inspired her to become an international clinician presenting with her horses of many at the, at the national equine ex exposed from 2009 and 2015, a working equitation instructor, a human horse relationship expert, and a horse specialist with a concentration on behavior psychology rehabilitation foundation.

Carolyn W. (7m 48s):
Caroline, in my book, clearly has a lot to share with us. She continues to teach what she knows, inspiring people to learn how to interact and work together with their horses. Through mindfulness, relationship, Consensual Partnership Training, and Consensual Partnership Training. Through her compassionate, holistic, and proven training system, she has helped thousands of students and horses achieve the most enriching and rewarding relationship and partnership. Carolyn's Towel horsemanship can be found on both Facebook and YouTube. And at the end of this interview, I'm going to read off the list of courses that she offers. The information ranges from starting a young horse to spirituality with horses, to a masterclass on riding Bit lists.

Carolyn W. (8m 34s):
So there's a ton of information for every horse owner. And right off the bat, Madeira, I wanna find out how you incorporate your Taoism into your horse training. Let's, let's get that question answered first off.

Caroline Beste (8m 51s):
Yeah. Wow. And I only say it like that because you know how everyone that knows me, me knows how I can ramble, so I'm trying to reign it in, no pun intended. So that's a good one. You know, I've talked about this in previous podcasts and in my MasteryMembership Q & A webinars that I used to host for the, the, the students privately I was first introduced, I was raised Catholic, and by my mother. My father was raised, you know, Lutheran Episcopalian had changed.

Caroline Beste (9m 33s):
Dad's religion was his horses, my father, and his religion was nature. So he and mom always fought about religion. And so my mom is a devout though, but she's also very spiritual. So both my parents are very spiritual and meaning they practiced a lifestyle that included, you know, there was a lot of dysfunction in my family, don't get me wrong, and I'm leading to that. But in the beginning, you know, in our formative years for my brothers and I, there was a lot of cohesiveness and a lot of really good things. And that helped with that, with our foundation, especially during the tough times.

Caroline Beste (10m 14s):
So the spirituality piece was always there for me more than the religion. And the spirituality piece showed up in my family dynamic and in my upbringing by far more than religion. And religion actually took on a very negative connotation, even when I was getting, going through my confirmation. I mean, I just was bored to death with studying the Bible. Sorry. And I do believe in God has nothing to do with that. But I, I did not enjoy my upbringing, my ca Catholic upbringing, and mostly because I found my mom God lover to be a hypocrite, you know? And there was a lot of drinking going on and things really hit the fan in my early teens.

Caroline Beste (10m 57s):
And so that's where Taoism comes in, because I had a nervous breakdown when I was 15. And the therapist that I saw after my nervous breakdown, who I've tried looking her up, she's not on Facebook, just an amazing woman. We were living, living in Chagrin Falls outside Cleveland, Ohio at the time. We were there for about nine years. And I had my backyard horse brandy that I got at the age of nine. And my oldest brother, it's three years. Three years. Three years. Or Steven's the oldest, then David, then me. So Steve was away at college and it was just a really awful, absolutely horrendous time in my life.

Caroline Beste (11m 39s):
I was not suicidal, I didn't think like that, but I had a nervous breakdown. So if you were to think of it in terms of self-preservation, I completely shut down. And I had a wonderful boyfriend all through that I knew through middle school in, in high school. And I literally was passing out, blacking out in the hallways, and he's picking me up and, you know, I was having, you know, intense anxiety attacks. I was breaking out in hives, you guys, like I blushed, you know, naturally as a young, young child and a young woman. But I was breaking out in hives and sweat down my pits.

Caroline Beste (12m 22s):
I mean, the sweat was dripping down my body. I like, this is nuts. Like, you go to the doctor and they're trying to burn your armpits out with this medication. They wanted to put me on pills for my anxiety. And I was like, no, you know, no way. I'm not taking anything. So, you know, shit hit the fan when my mom found me in a fetal position by our pool table in our game room. And, and I, I was catatonic. I went catatonic. And she, at the time, she won't admit this, I think she'll admit it today, she was a struggling alcoholic and in depression and had a, a psychiatrist. So she was already on some medications, so she called him.

Caroline Beste (13m 4s):
And I spent three weeks in Cleveland's psychiatric ward. And it was the most powerful experience for me, the most, I, I mean, I could cry. It, it, that saved my life. That saved my life. And it gave me such a perspective to be locked up in a mental institution with, you know, bars on the doors, whatever you wanna call it, bars. It's snowing outside. It's Christmas time and I'm spending Christmas in a mental ward. And the other patients who were my age, boys and girls, I mean, I didn't know what suicide was.

Caroline Beste (13m 52s):
I wasn't suicidal. I didn't know what it was. I didn't have any of the trauma or the hardship that these kids had. It puts such a perspective on my life. It was unbelievable. And that was part that was so empowering because I still couldn't speak, you know, if I went to think about, I didn't even know how I felt, you know, the minute we'd have group session and I'd go to think I couldn't even think or articulate, I'd pass right out. So my point is, that moment was so enlightening for me because I'm looking at my peers with multiple lacerations on their wrists, fresh ones and old ones, scars, mutilations, they've tried committing suicide so many times and to hear their stories, it blew my mind.

Caroline Beste (14m 40s):
I, I didn't know, like I knew my mom grew up in a really abusive, mentally, physically, sexually, emotionally abusive household. She was very honest about that. And she grew up with four brothers. And I know I know about her father, and, but you're, you're not think, you know, didn't happen to me. It's not in my mindset. I wasn't, you know, raped, molested sex sexually, you know, abused. And oh my God, you guys, there must have been 20 of us, besides me. I don't think there was anybody else in that room that was not sexually abused.

Caroline Beste (15m 20s):
Boys and girls multiple times, constantly, they keep being thrown back to their families. They're, they're raped and molested and sexually abused by their fathers, their mothers, their brothers, their uncles. This is boys and girls. I mean, I was like, you know what? And so that stunned and shocked me. And I just remember thinking, oh my God, you don't have it bad. You know, I, I didn't really know why I ended up there. I didn't know what was going on inside of me until I'd gotten to therapy. But that moment on, and I think I'm gonna answer a couple of questions probably with this comment, was a catalyst to me wanting to help disadvantaged youth.

Caroline Beste (16m 12s):
Because at least I had a family, at least I had a really nice home. I had a horse, I had so many privileges and I didn't have that level of abuse. I had dysfunction, I had alcoholism. That's abuse, I get that. But I didn't have that level of abuse and I just, it changed me completely for the better. And in a way that when I was released, and yes, you do have to be released. They have to make sure that your family dynamic is healthy enough to be released and you are healthy enough to go back into that family dynamic. So three weeks later I was released and believe me, they wanted to put me in a state home. They did not want me. I was an upper middle class home, has nothing to do with money, you guys, but they did not want me.

Caroline Beste (16m 56s):
You know, they, my dad refused to be interviewed by them, refused to go into counseling at that time. They already knew my mom, you know, in her condition. So they didn't wanna release me to my house, but obviously I proved to them that I could handle it. And I went into therapy and I couldn't speak, remember I just kept passing out and I was an artist. And so I was doing a lot of artwork and winning a lot of awards. And I ended up teaching my high school class the first or the last two years, junior and senior year, Sumi painting. But I fell in love with Japanese art because of Dals and, and the, and the Chinese philosophy.

Caroline Beste (17m 40s):
But my therapist gave me my first book on meditation and eastern philosophy in eastern medicine. And meditation was the catalyst for me. It allowed me to tune into my body and in a way where I didn't have to think, cuz remember just trying to think about it made me pass out. And the reason why I was passing out is because I was completely overloaded. I was completely overwhelmed, number one with my emotions, my feelings, my thoughts. Number two, I didn't have the, the skill sets to articulate. No one ever taught me how to communicate, how to articulate how I felt.

Caroline Beste (18m 22s):
And three, I was in a really physically abusive household. Now, no one was leading me and I didn't see anyone beating anybody up, but there was so much anger and rage. And either my mom was self-medicating through alcoholism, or my dad or my brother was punching holes in the walls and there was so much, you know. And my oldest brother came home from military from the Citadel and, and beat the shit outta me. So it was really bad. It, there was so much trauma and the meditation, he beat me up. And we have talked about this, you guys believe me, he beat me up because of where his headset was and being a knob at the Citadel, which is like West Point and a freshman and his own damage and his inability to deal with the craziness that was going on when he came home from, for Christmas, being a a knob, which is hard enough, you guys, they try to break you.

Caroline Beste (19m 23s):
That's what the Marine Corps does. They break you down to build you back up. So he just took it all out on me. It was awful, it was bad. So yeah, there was a lot of craziness. So the meditation, and it's what I teach today, allows you to bypass your thoughts, which puts you into self-preservation mode immediately. Whether you go catatonic and freeze or you go into a flight mode or fight mode and allows you to get into your body and help learn how to self-regulate your nervous system. And you do that through the deep breath work, which if you do it correctly, produces endorphin, which eventually overrides the adrenaline and it's the adrenaline that creates a self preservation.

Caroline Beste (20m 7s):
So it was a long process, it took many months. I brought up being an artist because I had, I painted these murals, these massive murals that depicted what was going on inside of me. Or I wrote, because I couldn't speak without passing out until this woman was a, was a god until she could help me, you know, during this process, self-regulate right then and there, right in the middle of therapy and find my words. If I could just pick one word, oh my God, if I could just find my words. So yeah, pretty big story. So how do,

Carolyn W. (20m 48s):
Since this is, this is all new to me in terms of the spirituality with horses, cuz I grew up riding by the seat of my pants, as you all know. So if you, how do you take the meditation and your belief in Doism and Tai chi and how, let's start there in terms of your training methods. How do you incorporate all that into your success with your horses?

Caroline Beste (21m 13s):
So I think I, I know I was born this way, meaning I was born very hyper intuitive, hyper aware. That I think is what makes artists in any art form you, you know, you, we are all gifted, don't get me wrong, we all have gifts, you guys, but it, you, you have to be attuned to it or your family has to, to help to cultivate that and nurture that. And, and I had both, I was a, I was, you know, born very tuned in and, and my parents were wonderful, you know, in our formative years, like I said earlier at, at knowing where our talents were and, and helping us.

Caroline Beste (21m 54s):
And I'm bringing that up because I've met so many students, you know, thousands of horses and students over the years at all levels of meditation experience, meditative experience, and, and people that have studied with some of the, you know, ashrams in India and some of the great masters and, and Daoism and Buddhism and, you know, women that have been teaching reiki and, and all sorts of energy practices, you know, most of their life. And I, I've been in a, a working a practicing Dallas since my teenage years.

Caroline Beste (22m 35s):
But I think for me it comes easier because of my gift as an artist. And we all have that gift and the nurturing. And so you, my eye is keen. I've always been a really good observer. I've always felt, been tuned into my feelings and that's probably why they, they exploded where they just completely numbed down because I felt too much a high sensitive, you would call me today, you know, a high impact today, clairvoyant that runs in my family. I can remember stories from my grandmother, you know, that all of those things.

Caroline Beste (23m 17s):
But if you don't know what to do with them, they become a curse. As I say, these gifts can become a curse. And they certainly did become that for me as a teenager. But then as I came out of that, as that, that traumatic experience, you know, I I came out of it kind of like the phoenix, you know, I rose with, with, wow, I've got these gifts and talents. How do I use them now? How do I learn how to use them to my benefit and how to benefit others? And so it definitely affected my horse, my relationship with my horse. But I was, you know, I had already done a lot of really cool things that I teach today way before I became a Dallas with my backyard horse.

Caroline Beste (24m 5s):
And, and so the Daoist, the Daoism has definitely shaped me because it enhanced what I already had with my horse and it enhanced me personally on a personal level. But when it comes to what I had with my, with Brandy, the first, my first horse at the age of nine, and, and the horse, that's the catalyst to all of this work. I mean, I was already doing things with him, you know, that so many people are doing today and, and I continue to do with my horses today, like the liberty work and the riding completely bitless and bridals and bareback and 500 acres of open hay fields and woods and ponds.

Caroline Beste (24m 45s):
And I, you know, that was already instilled in me that magical I was born with that. I'd say I'm probably more idealistic by far than I am realistic. I'm more realistic probably because I'm more tainted and cynical as an adult. I hate to say it, yeah, I'm a lot more realistic, but there's this huge, this huge idealistic side that used to crush me. I don't know. I mean, I, how many of us can relate to that, you know? And yeah, it crushes you, you know, why can't the world be a better place? What do you mean? Why did you, you know, act that way or your feelings get hurt all the time. And but that idealism really, I mean, it's shaped who I am with, with my, my teachings.

Caroline Beste (25m 35s):
So yeah, I mean my, my first role model was the Black Stallion book and then the movie. Oh yeah, yeah. That was my first teacher. Oh yeah. Great books. Yeah. And, and I believed I could have that with Brandy and I did. The, the thing is, is you don't, you don't think about it in, in a mature adult mind. Like, I'm gonna, you know, develop this into a training program and, and, and, and write everything down. So I know exactly how I got here. I don't remember how I got there. I just remember that I got there. And when I look back on it and, and I've had to really carefully look back on like, what did I do pattern wise, you know, for, for developing these patterns.

Caroline Beste (26m 21s):
It wasn't developing behavior, you know, I, I, I really get sick and tired and offended and for the horses' sake with all this, you know, shaping behavior and trying to control the horse and in so many ways, you know, both psychologically and, and personality wise, let alone in training. But yeah, just the things I did with Brandy that have shaped my work today came more natural than anything. You know, when Brandy was my backyard horse, I was his only friend. He didn't get grass unless I took him out to grays in the fields. And I had permission. We rode every day. I studied with him, you know, when he laid down, I laid down with him, and then I'm like, well, Alec, Alex, Alec Ramsey had these cues for the black, I gotta create a cue system.

Caroline Beste (27m 12s):
And my cue for brandy was when, when, when he laid down, I laid down and I could lay all over him. And, and then I'm like, okay, I'm gonna lay up by your head and I'm gonna put your head on my lap and, and in the sun. And that was beautiful. And it was just innate. I look back on it, I'm like, yeah, remember doing this strategically. I have that mind. I'm very organized. I think that's part of my business success too. It's just a strategicness. So, okay, so it's clear to me you're comfortable with all this. It feels great, you know, as a kid you don't think that strategically, but I'm putting it in adult words now. So now it's gonna be a pat pat on my lap, and that's gonna be the cue for you to put your, your head down on the lap.

Caroline Beste (27m 55s):
And, and so before you know it, we'd be out there, I'd be grooming 'em, and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna sit down now. Come lay down with me. And that's just one example of liberty training, trick training, as they call it today. It wasn't a trick. I didn't think about it. I didn't give him treats. There were no treats, you know? Sure. He got carrots all the time. It was, we had a great fricking relationship and trust and bond, and I was present, I was with him. I wasn't somewhere else. And so being present is that, that glitch that we as adults lose, you know, time and maturity. I call it the rite of passage when we lose our innocence and go into puberty.

Caroline Beste (28m 39s):
It's a rite of passage, but it sucks because we lose so much innocence and naiveness and purity. We become, you know, self-obsessed, self-aware, aware of, of society and societal pressures and all those things fill our heads and we're no longer present. And so the meditation is a beautiful way to get you back into your body and a beautiful way to help you connect and become more grounded and more present. And, you know, present is the key word here. I call it mindfulness, you can call it attunement tuning in. But these are, this is critical. You can't have connection, you can't have a relationship if you don't have connection.

Caroline Beste (29m 24s):
And if you're not present, you can't have connection.

Carolyn W. (29m 29s):
I totally, and I'm really fascinated with the connection to the Black Stallion movies, because I think most of us, people who love horses are way familiar with that. And it dawned on me while you, you were talking that when, when Alec and the Black were stranded on that desert island, black didn't want anything to do with him at first, even after he got rescued. And then as things progressed, it seemed like he gave the boy permission to get on his back and ride him. Which brings me to the word consensual. I know that that's a word that you use a lot in your training methods. So let's get a little bit in more in detail with us on that consensual permission type thing that you're doing with your horses.

Carolyn W. (30m 16s):
Because I never applied that when I was watching those movies to my wild appaloosa mix in bred Mare. And I got hurt an awful lot, as you all know. It'd never dawned on me to get her consent to get on her. I just got on her and took off. So I really wanna hear about this consensual partnership.

Caroline Beste (30m 40s):
Yeah, that's a, that's a a a loaded question because my mind is backtracking. Like you, I had a runaway pony. I've had more concussions than I'd than I'm, I'm scared of. I, I really can't have another concussion or I'll probably be dead, you guys. I've felt my brain move around. So my pony did the same thing to me when we lived outside Philadelphia before we moved to Cleveland. And I got Brandy. I've had those experiences and those frustrations. And before I got Brandy, I volunteered at a barn a half a mile down the road and she became like a big sister to me. And Sue leased out part of her property to a mom daughter, a little family mom daughter, and a father husband that had four Hs.

Caroline Beste (31m 26s):
And so I was the only one that could stick on these, these little ponies, you know, I had a great seat. I had no fear. I can remember before we got, I got Brandy, so I'm like eight, nine, maybe 10. I got Brandy and I'm exercising these ponies before their shows, and I'm like, no rains. I'm like loving on 'em while they're taking off with me at full speed trying to get rid of me. And I'm just, I'm hanging on. It didn't ma I mean, it didn't matter. I'm like, I love you, it's okay, you know, like I understood them and I wanted to make it better for them. And so I started with that too. And I think that was part of when I got Brandy as, as my own personal horse and, and you know, started the Black Stallion series, you know, all these things led up is where I'm headed with this.

Caroline Beste (32m 13s):
It wasn't like everything happened at once. It was a, it was a, a series of events and, and things in my life that made me really think and made me want. And God knows I love horses. So I was like, you know, when I get my next, you know, head of pony, get my horse, you know, I really thought about what I wanted and I didn't wanna show anymore. I didn't want to get hurt anymore. And Brandy put me through a lot. There was a lot of learning the first six months we leased him before he came home. And I write about that in my about page on my website. There was a lot of great learning there, but I was open to it.

Caroline Beste (32m 53s):
That's key is I was already looking for a different way. I was already questioning things. And so I feel like I was ahead of the time in a lot of ways. And so that when I got my horse and the timing of the Black Stallion, for me, I, it was just perfect timing. And I was like, yes, you know, this is exactly where I wanna be and what I wanna, I wanna learn. So consensual made sense to me. I never thought about it as a child. It never, I never thought about it until I got back into horses and was thinking a lot about my late horse because it had been two years that since his passing.

Caroline Beste (33m 34s):
And I spent two years hitting it hard with grieving and really questioning my life, my marriage at the time, my business at the time living in the city of dc which I loved. And got that outta my system. So I was really, my horses were at my parents' farm a couple hours away on the eastern shore of Maryland. So I was really questioning a lot of things and remembering a lot because I wanted to find a way to get back to horses and make it a, make it a profession. And I knew how expensive this was going to be. So long story short, consensual is choice and permission.

Caroline Beste (34m 15s):
And if I look back on all the things I did with Brandy, I wasn't thinking about consent, but they were all choice and permission. And when you stop riding with a bit at that age, and you stop riding with a saddle, mostly to keep me warm in those freezing lake airy winters of Cleveland, it's like, you know, where's my blanket? Where's my hot cocoa thermos? And I'm going bare back on brandy in this three feet of snow. So it, it honestly, it, it happened naturally with him. It, it, it was all the relationship. It was, I mean, I talk about altruism on my website.

Caroline Beste (34m 56s):
I'll never forget my brother David and I having an altercation and I'm on the inside in the paddock. I'm grooming brandy and you know, I'm on brandy's in the middle of us and Dave's stroking him cuz he rode Brandy too. My brothers were excellent, excellent with animals and excellent riders. And David, you know, we had words. I probably was a smart ass. I know it being the, the, yeah, the little spoiled, you know, sister daughter, the youngest daddy's little girl, there's no doubt about that. And he pushed me and Brandy is at liberty while I'm grooming him, tore the sleeve off his shirt, grabbed him just in a way that he didn't, didn't, I don't know if he left a mark, but tore, tore the sleeve off his shirt and we were both like an attack dog just came at us.

Caroline Beste (35m 48s):
We were both like, oh my god. And I just remember him pinning his ears and things I see today that I take for granted. It, it happens all the time, you know, with our horses, when they get jealous of each other, you know, your dogs, your cats, when you have multiple and, and you love them and you have these bonds, they get jealous. And it's, and jealousy is a, is a higher emotion. It's an intelligent emotion, it's a complex emotion. And it's why horses continually prove to me over and over that they are highly intelligent emotionally and, and socially. But anyway, so that, you know, getting back to consent, it really, I really didn't think about what that meant until I got back into horses and, and I was wanted to recreate what I had and, and, and create and make a formula, which is what I have with my program.

Caroline Beste (36m 37s):
Make a formula that works for any horse and any person if you desire and seek this relationship and in and in a way that no matter what level of development, training, you know, discipline, you seek, you, you continue and carry this level of relationship where you don't compromise the horse. You have this, this connection, this communication is understanding and that consent is always a part of it, just like it is with us. You know, we have to agree to be in this relationship, the three of us, we have to agree to want to do this podcast together. You know, it, it's gotta be consensual.

Caroline Beste (37m 17s):
And the key thing with permission, you know, I like to guarantee my program is a hundred percent safe, a hundred percent and, and I can guarantee that, but you have to do it correctly. And part of that is getting permission by your horse, especially to get on your horse, not making it happen, not coercing it, not rewarding it. I don't reward my fricking horse for allowing me to get on their back, meaning I don't pull 'em up to the mounting block, make 'em stand still or give them a treat when they let me on.

Caroline Beste (37m 57s):
And I see so many top professionals in my field, top, top, they have a bigger following by far than I do. You know, and they're given their horse a treat or their young horse that they start under saddle. And sure my way is a hell of a lot harder, but it's a hell of a lot safer.

Carolyn W. (38m 18s):
Well that because I'm, I'm finding that, you know, words like consensual are brand new to me that I've only heard through you as a trainer. But when you think about other trainers, they'll use like join up or connection, but they're always separate. You're using them together with consensual. So what are the similarities and what are the benefits when you put all of those together in your training?

Caroline Beste (38m 47s):
It's all the same. We just have different words for it. What the hell? It depend, and it depends on what the hell join up means to you all. You know, Lydia knows she's a student of the work. Join up is three levels. It's the heart, which is your relationship, it's the mind, which is the horse thinking about you. And it's the body when the horse joins you physically in the work, not just hooks on you and follows you. And there's a big discernment here. There's a big difference between hooking on and following you and, and being with you and offering themselves fully to you in heart, which is a hug in the mind, which is thinking about you and looking at you and in the body and in the movement, which stays with you or comes up to pick you up.

Caroline Beste (39m 39s):
How many of you guys have watched my YouTube videos and you've seen me demonstrate as I go to get on lovey in particular to demonstrate a riding technique or whatever that particular video lesson is about. I'm talking in the camera, I go up to the mounting block, nine outta 10 times, lovey is already there, or just a look and a smooch, and she comes right up and wraps herself around me with her eyes half shut. Now she can also pin her ears at me and give me a nip and that it's all information. So if I get that too, I go, wow, either your back's out, your ribs out, something's bothering you, your skin's dry in the, in the pad, or I better get on real soft and not, you know, loud so to speak.

Caroline Beste (40m 27s):
So, you know, it's not, there is no perfect, I don't mean to use that word. It's a conversation though, you know, join up means that the horse joins you again, in, in in mind their mind is on you not on a treat and not on what's over there. So that's the first level to join up. Well really it's the relationship. You can't get anything if you don't have a bond. So then you have the mind and then you have the body that willingly chooses to give to you in whatever form they're giving. If it's a liberty circle, if it's a mounting permission to get on, if it's a following you or partner walking with you out to the riding arena.

Caroline Beste (41m 9s):
So join up is connection and it is consensual. So the difference with my join up from Mon Roberts is, is huge. And I know that recently in the last few years, money Roberts has been talking about energy, but I don't believe him. I know people do change and grow, but his whole premise of join up from 30, 40 years ago was basically observing wild horses and understanding that most horses can only run as fast as they can for a quarter of a mile. So if you put a horse in a round pen and it's wild, you're basically gonna move it around and it's natural instincts kick in when it says, Hey, I'm running outta steam and fuel here.

Caroline Beste (41m 54s):
And when they naturally kick in, the horse is gonna do a couple of things. It's gonna, you know, if it hasn't tried to jump out of the round pen at that point, it's going to basically, horses are passive by nature anyway. It's gonna submit and it's gonna stop and it's gonna kind of look at you like, what do you want? And so, you know, that's where join up started. And I don't think that's join up. I think that's, that's dominance and it's, it's submissive training to run any horse. And unfortunately with the thousands of horses I've, I've rehabilitated in all these years, it's, it's a common practice to this day.

Caroline Beste (42m 34s):
And it's a common practice in every type of discipline, whether it's natural horsemanship, dressage, when people are trying to learn from videos on YouTube without really being educated, they're like, oh, I'm gonna add this to my repertoire because this horse is squirrely and they have too much energy and they've been kept in their stall too much. So I'm gonna throw 'em in a round pen and run the hell out of 'em.

Carolyn W. (42m 58s):
I

Caroline Beste (42m 58s):
See. And so you're teaching your horse to run, you're teaching them all the wrong things. And so anyway, not to go off on a tangent like I so often do. There's just, there's some things, all these things connect though, and I hope I answered that question. Help join up connection.

Carolyn W. (43m 15s):
Well you

Caroline Beste (43m 17s):
Did

Carolyn W. (43m 17s):
Actually, I find it really fascinating because one of the few times that I was ever around a trainer was with a friend's horse. And I, you know, I I I hauled the horse over to the trainer for her, you know, when you have a horse trailer and a truck, everybody's your friend. And we got there and I know I watched him like flip a lasso at this poor gelding until it ran and ran and ran and ran. And then he switched it going the other direction and the whole time he's talking to the owner, you know, about all the usefulness that he's putting out and making the horse listen to him and whatnot. And I did watch sweat break out on that horse's neck and I did watch his nostrils flare and, and he was, and you could tell he was like, how many more circles do I have to run?

Carolyn W. (43m 58s):
So, so that leads me into some words that I've pulled outta your videos and your training. So I'm gonna read this because it's kinda wordy because I noticed that you do include a lot of disciples and practices in your training. And I'm gonna list them off here. You've got Liberty, classical horsemanship and massage, reigning versatility, obstacle course, trail riding, evidence based horsemanship, and of course the Taoism and the Tai Chi. You know, there's 10 big things right there. How, how do all these work together? Do you make different combinations for different horses? Just kind of tell me how those all work together.

Carolyn W. (44m 38s):
That's a lot.

Caroline Beste (44m 39s):
Yep. And they're all in my big program. So when I got back into horses and I studied and I traveled and I saved up money from my former business to give myself two years sabbatical basically to step away and pay for my three horses, my Trinity, when I got back into horses, legend smoking and Sundance and my donkey and I studied for two years and I created an O sham at my first farm out in the middle of nowhere. And that was really important. And I'm not gonna get into what an o sham is, but it's very important, especially for personal transformation, you need a lot of quiet, and I came from DC high energy, you know, graphic design, marketing business of my own, you know, bam, bam, bam, let's get her done, laser focused.

Caroline Beste (45m 25s):
I was very successful. And so when I started this business, I had to completely change. And in that two years, one of the things when I was studying and I was studying my horses, so my trinity legend smoking and Sundance became my best teachers during this time. But also the people that I was studying, I learned a lot of what I didn't wanna do. And I also learned about foundation. I learned foundation, how important foundation was from the great masters and especially classical dressage. Now I wasn't doing dressage at the time, but I really respected and appreciated and understood the training pyramid and now how people go about it.

Caroline Beste (46m 16s):
I didn't agree with but a lot of the time. But, but I knew how important foundation was. And so here I'm studying natural horsemanship, I'm studying classical dressage from various, you know, FEI Grand Prix instructors. I'm studying reigning jack, specifically advanced horsemanship and flight and lead changes. And, and I'm doing a lot of trail riding and a lot of obstacle coursework. And so that just gets, you know, built into the versatility aspect of my work. And so as I'm learning and developing and, and I'm thinking the whole time, cuz I've got this business head, you guys, it's just also who I am.

Caroline Beste (47m 1s):
You know, I'm, it's like I'm taking it all down and, and I'm like, I'm doing it and I'm trying it and I'm practicing it and I'm, I'm making a lot of mistakes as I call them, learning opportunities. I'm like, holy cow, this isn't working and this is going against me. This doesn't feel right. It doesn't, you know, because what I did with Brandy, my, my first horse, you know, like I said, I didn't, I was a kid, I didn't have a program. And so I'm trying to like, you know, remember how, and I'm on a time limit, I only have two years, you know, before my money runs out and I've gotta start making money. So I've got that pressure. I still have a very linear mindset from my former business and, and I'm coming back into horses and I'm like, I'm like screwing some things up left and right.

Caroline Beste (47m 57s):
And I did an excellent job learning a lot of technique in the beginning and I was hungry for it, but it didn't take long for that to completely backfire and especially with the three horses that I had. And that's a beautiful thing that it backfired cuz I respected that and I stopped and I stopped studying everybody else. I had enough, you know, like technique at that point, just enough. Like I continued my dressage much later. And it wasn't until I moved to Florida in 2011 that I started training under a phenomenal fe trainer here in Florida that was doing working application.

Caroline Beste (48m 41s):
And I got certified in 2012. So my horses, you know, did not have a dressage background at all. But they had an amazing versatility foundation and I knew how important that education was. And so that created my, that was the beginning of my mastery program that I have today because it was my apprenticeship program. I was getting students in, you wanted to study my way, they liked seeing me. When I started presenting as a clinician, they loved my relationship. You could see the connection, you could see my horses struggling, you know, with so many of the typical and common things that we all struggle with because they weren't fixed, they weren't dead broke, they weren't perfect. And I'm bringing them to these expos that are just blowing their minds.

Caroline Beste (49m 24s):
I was doing the best I could to prepare them for that level of st stimulation, but I didn't show, I didn't compete, I don't believe in it. So they didn't get that kind of exposure with all that stimuli. And so, but that wasn't my point when I was a clinician, you know, I I we were there to show you how we worked through these things and to show you what the relationship was all about. And that once you have that and you have that level of trust and connection and permission that the horse gives you, which takes a tremendous amount of trust, right? That you can achieve all this other stuff much easier and quicker, even if that takes a lot more time. So the 10 things that I, that you just listed are in my mastery program.

Caroline Beste (50m 8s):
And those 10 things are the things that I've learned in the last 15 years. Well, it would've been 10 years, it took me 10 years to develop the program. And it's important and it's for every horse because every horse to me, you, you're gonna miss out. You're gonna miss out. That's what probably should have called my my method versatility. You're gonna miss out if you just focus in one thing. If you just focus on hunter, you just focus on raining, you just focus on dressage you. I want a well-balanced horse. I wanna, I want a well-rounded education. I want a horse that can be put in any situation and, and learn and trust you as a partner.

Caroline Beste (50m 48s):
Learn and trust you as a partner, maybe because number one, I like to do all those things and all those things I've done and they are important to me. And I love trail riding and I love challenges. I like to learn, I like to be challenged. I like to grow and I want my best friend, my horse right there with me. And sure we're gonna question things. We're gonna have moments where we, we don't, we don't feel safe. We're not quite sure, but I want to have that conversation. I wanna have that ability that my horse doesn't forget about me and choose to take care of themselves through self preservation. I want them to take care of me and they will take care of you if you earn it.

Caroline Beste (51m 30s):
If you become part of that, that family dynamic that if you study wild horses like I have, and there's so much more available now on YouTube as far as wild horse observing wild horse interactions and understanding like the blm you know, the wild mustangs and how important family is to horses. It is so important. If you can get, you can become that family unit. Even if it's just the two of you that dynamic man, you're golden. They're gonna protect you and take care of you. And anyway, it's a lot easier to develop and train a horse when you have trust and that level of relationship and consent.

Caroline Beste (52m 12s):
There's no fighting. Now the horse might be challenged, what about all the rehabs I've worked with? They come with challenges, but does that make them challenging? Maybe if you don't know what to do with it, you the person. But for me, they're not challenging, they're just challenged. So my job in my program too is I know the roadblocks that people and horses are gonna hit because 98% of the horses I've worked with are challenged and they come with similar challenges, same stupid round penning practices, you know, the same type of, of linear thinking when it comes to feel and timing when you're, when you're communicating with your hands, with, with the, the res or the lead rope or the whip, you know, it's, it's these same kinds of challenges.

Caroline Beste (52m 58s):
So it doesn't matter what discipline you're studying, I've seen the same patterns and, and, and so many of them. And so the program also helps you work through that. It's designed to, to give you the next exercise but help you knowing that you're gonna need the help to help your horse and help you succeed at this exercise, if that makes sense. So it's, I think that's where the versatility, all these things are important to me. Yeah, they're all important. You make a really,

Carolyn W. (53m 33s):
I like the idea of incorporating all those different areas and it brought to mind another question because, you know, I'm just learning so much through this interview, but one of the things that I flashed on, again, when we're talking about round pins and arenas and the one thing that people have told me I should have done with my first crazy horse was lunging her. I remem I have several times since I moved to Colorado, you know, before my last horse Dixie, I'd ride over to other people's houses to pick them up to take a ride and it would be like, wait a minute, I have to lunge so and so and burn the steam off the top. And I'd sit on Dixie and I'd watch the horse go round and around and round until they burned the steam off and then it was safe to get on them.

Carolyn W. (54m 19s):
So I'm understanding through Lydia that you have a different technique of lunging and you look at it in a different way. You do something really special that it means something entirely different. So I wanna hear about that.

Caroline Beste (54m 33s):
Hmm. Wow, these are great questions. Thank you. Yeah, the lunging, there's three styles of lunging in, in my, my methodology, my training in my big program too. So there's the liberty, there's the free lunge, there's the straightness lunge, which can be at liberty free or online. And then there is a more advanced level, which is a lot of bending like the shoulder in, and again, here's well rounded because it we're so linear. We're linear as a human species or as a species. We, humans are linear. You guys and horses are more non-linear. So when a horse is presented with a challenge or a threat, the non-linear is an instinct within their nervous system that, that shoots through their senses heightens everything.

Caroline Beste (55m 22s):
And they look for 20 ways to get away from that challenge or that threat. What do we do? We usually plow through it or we run the other way, most of us, but we're linear regardless. And so part of my transformation, getting back into horses, cuz I was very linear as I said earlier, and it did not work well with my Arabian, I didn't push it with Smokey cuz they already busted me up from the beginning. And he was the toughest horse I've ever worked with. And I didn't push it with Sundance. I gave her almost a year off because she was so, she was starved and abandoned. So I gave her some time. But lay, I took a, I got greedy. I didn't know, I took advantage of legend in his generosity.

Caroline Beste (56m 6s):
Not that he was easy by any means, but he, he really broke me in a great way. He broke me, like I said about the Marines. Marines, you gotta, you gotta be the type of person they can break cuz they're gonna rebuild you into what they want as a marine. Well that horse broke me in a great way. And part of that breaking was realizing that, and this is where the linear comes in, that, and I've had this question and this debate and I've had other professionals be really rude to me and say things like, you know, your program doesn't fit all horses.

Caroline Beste (56m 48s):
You can't put every horse in a box. And I'm like, this isn't a box, this is, this is about going to school, giving your horse a well rounded education, but every horse is treated as an individual. So you, the person has to learn how to approach that horse specific to what they need, but they are still gonna learn the same damn things that every other fricking horse is gonna learn. Because I believe, in my experience, it is important to them giving us the level of partnership and safety that we desire as human beings. Everybody wants this amazing relationship and partnership and to be safe with horses, well, you've gotta earn it and you've gotta learn it.

Caroline Beste (57m 33s):
It does. It's not, doesn't happen overnight. And it's not all through love. Love is part of it. So when it comes to lunging, that's where I'm headed. I'm like, okay, I'm doing the natural horsemanship thing and this is my horses are berserk, it's crippling them. They hate it, it's it, they're going, they're getting worse. And, and then I would try a formal level of lunging and my horses hated it. So I kept listening to my horses, like I said, they were my best teachers. And so I'd be like, okay, I can take the good from this approach. What is the purpose?

Caroline Beste (58m 14s):
Well, this purpose of classical lunging is for straightness or is to help collection. But I'm not going use a kason, I'm not gonna use tie downs. I'm not going to use any kind of equipment that's going to force my horse into an unnatural physical position, especially when they are not ready to stretch the way they're being made to stretch with these pieces of equipment. So that's where I took the good and I got rid of the bad and I listened to my horse. And then the natural horsemanship trap that creates these mechanical robots that like go on autopilot, oh, they'll do exactly what you want, but there's no connection.

Caroline Beste (58m 59s):
And when you run a horse in a round pen or you ask them to canter and they are not balanced, it's no different than saying to me right now and my knees are weak and they hurt and I'm outta shape and I'm 54 years old and I haven't jogged in 20 years. Caroline, go up there and run five miles. I'm gonna end up hurting myself in so many ways because I'm not physically prepared or set up, let alone mentally to get in that zone. And so you're doing the same thing when you just throw these horses into these running patterns.

Caroline Beste (59m 39s):
It has to be developed slowly if to build them up to that so that when they do canter they are, they have emotional, mental and physical collection and control over that movement. And so that's where the three, the lunging comes in. So the, in addition to that, the power of my lunging is it's the only one out there, it's the only lunging that exists like this. And it's not just building and developing the biomechanics in your horse, it's about self-regulation because it's worked for every horse from completely shut down to, you know, spooky, hypervigilant.

Caroline Beste (1h 0m 20s):
It's worked for every kind of breed, especially gated horses because it teaches the gated horse who's weak in the, he end naturally. It teaches them how to do a two beat trot and a three beat can. But the two beat trot is most important and it teaches them how to develop their top line and strengthen their top line and develop their hend end during this process. So it makes their gating. You wanna talk about smoothest silk and all of this should be done on the ground before you ride. As I always say, you wanna develop the movement before you ride the movement. The other plus to all of this is it teaches you how to ride the movement before you ride the movement. So the energetic component of the chakra system.

Caroline Beste (1h 1m 2s):
So this is where we get deeper into the meditation. So later in life, it wasn't until one of my apprentices came to work with me who was a, a reiki yoga master. Cranio, sacral saved me, saved my brain from my last huge concussion 15 years ago or whatever. But Erica, and were still best sole sisters, best friend, she's been on my podcast many times. She, you know, was studying me an app apprenticing. And she goes this back in 2009 and she's like watching, you know, horse after horse, whether it's my, my personal horses or any horse at any level going through this formula of mine, this training system come to the chakras.

Caroline Beste (1h 1m 45s):
And I knew nothing about chakras. Sure, I learned about that a little bit when I was a teenager, but mostly I focused on the deep breath work meditation to, to help me not control my panic attacks, work through my panic attacks. Choosing language is important right now. None of this is for coping mechanisms. I'm not here to change, you know, unwanted, you know, personalities, temperaments, or behaviors so to speak. We're here to find a better way that fits and works. And that's why I developed my program because it does work when the horse has an opportunity to to be, be heard. And when you are taught how to be present and the horse can communicate and doesn't get frustrated or as anxious, and then the lunging helps work on their nervous system, which helps to develop the self-regulation.

Caroline Beste (1h 2m 33s):
And during this whole process, you, the human are, you have to learn how to embody movement. You have to learn how to embody the rhythm and the gate that you want your horse. There's no shaking the whip or clucking or hitting the horse to make them go. The lunge whip is an extension of your energy. It's used for various, for various reasons. Some of it's re rehabilitative, some of it's a hug, but is also as you, when you get through the rehabilitation and into more of the progression through my, my training system, the whip helps to guide the body and helps to teach the horse how to stretch even more.

Caroline Beste (1h 3m 15s):
And how to go straight and not lean. It's profound. It is profound.

Carolyn W. (1h 3m 25s):
This, this is all something that I have never even heard about, but the one word that keeps on jumping out at me is the liberty. And just to kind of give the audience a, a difference between my views of liberty. Before in my past, like when I had three horses and lived off grid in Idaho, I found it was really easy to exercise all three of them by riding one and bear back a lot of the time because you ride it is warmer, especially in the winter time. And the other two would just run along and do what they wanted. I end up getting very, very seriously hurt with this practice one day because I was on a, a really, really wild, a wide snow covered back country road and we're all trotting around it.

Carolyn W. (1h 4m 12s):
And the two horses at Liberty got way far ahead of me and I figured they'd catch up, whatever. So I turn around and I see this beautiful, pristine wide white race track and I just opened Dixie up and was enjoying that sensation of the wind in my face and in my whistling in my ears and, you know, the warmth of her body. Well the other two horses at Liberty came running up alongside and because it was in March 40 degree Idaho Day, which is like springtime in the, in the mountain, the others started to buck with the sheer joy of being horses, which meant my Dixie started to buck and I was completely, you know, like this.

Carolyn W. (1h 4m 53s):
And I ended up having one of my first two shoulder injuries cuz I fell off and I broke this shoulder here. So my concept of liberty is obviously really different than yours. So, so briefly before we start winding this up, I want to know the importance of liberty and what really benefits you with your training technique using a horse at Liberty.

Caroline Beste (1h 5m 15s):
So yeah, wow. Been there, been there, not injured like that, but been there learning opportunities, right. Don't wanna do that again. So those are the things Yeah, those are the things that, that make me question, how can I do this differently? And so liberty is, is we begin at liberty in my work, we begin at liberty with the horse again. We're looking to create in a situation, a structure, an opportunity for the horse to choose us. Nine outta 10 times is ain't gonna happen in the very beginning because horses are so damaged, you know, they don't trust you or they're triggered. You put 'em in a round pen and they go, go, go. Or they completely shut down. So again, my formula, my program has problem solving.

Caroline Beste (1h 5m 56s):
It understands all of this. But the point is you wanna begin at liberty. And liberty is your biggest test and and it's always your test. And, and it's not just the liberty on the ground, it's the liberty riding or the bridals riding or the riding one horse and having another pony that liberty. But you don't start there. And that's the biggest mistake we all make, including myself. I, you don't know. You only know what you know. You don't know what you don't know, right? And, and sure I've been in those situations, Carolyn, where throughout training my school masters I had a, I had an expo in New Jersey before I moved to Florida and with, and this is back in probably 2009 and it was a small little 2009.

Caroline Beste (1h 6m 43s):
Yep, it was 2009. My truck engine ended up blowing up off the side of the road and thank God one of my students took me to this expo New Jersey with both horses and four girls, two of which were my apprentices. So we had to come back up a week later from Maryland to get my truck cuz the engine had to be serviced or fixed. But anyway, so I was with Legend and Smokey in 2009. So we had, you know, we had a couple of years together, 2006, 2009, three years together. And we're in this outdoor arena and I am bridals and bareback on this little Arab of mine, this little gazelle.

Caroline Beste (1h 7m 25s):
And we'd already been practicing and we had been already working our way up, so to speak, so that smokey would be at liberty with us. So that if we did a circle smokey, I'm writing legends Smokey's at liberty following us or whatever. Well, legends started to buck, he started to hump up, he started and he was feeling good. He wasn't doing anything cuz he was spooked. I had asked him to can, and we were loing and Smokey tossed his head and left us and went to do his own thing, just similar to what you're talking about. And legend responded and I stayed on pretty good rider and I did have a neck rope around him, a very small thin neck rope, like a buddy string.

Caroline Beste (1h 8m 15s):
And was able to eventually ride it out and, and get 'em turned around. And I, and I was fine, everybody was fine, the horses were fine. But I realized again, there's your test, you know, I'm glad it was okay, but I realized, wow, we need a little bit more, not just work on ourselves, but you know, here the truck just blew up. You know, there was a lot going on where it'd been raining, they'd been stuck inside this two day and we finally had a pass in the afternoon to do our thing in this we wet arena. So put all that together. Here you are in spring, you know, so now that you kind of, it's, you know, you've got these horses, are they trained or you know, you know, do you know that if you ride off with them and they're next to you and they're at liberty, you don't wanna get kicked?

Caroline Beste (1h 9m 1s):
I mean, I've had all of these things happen as they forget about you. So my best advice is to ask a lot of questions and, and to ask experts like myself, like, hey, you know, I wanna join your program or I wanna do this specific discipline or all of it. And you know, can you give me some heads up? And I certainly, as Lydia is, you know, can attest to this, I'm always trying to give the best advice and, and, and prevent people from getting hurt, you know, learning the way I did. So it's like I do not advise you to, to, you know, to go out when you first start my program.

Caroline Beste (1h 9m 41s):
I tell you not to ride for a while. I don't care if your horse is safe riding because you're gonna keep the same, you know, supporting the same way, the same mindset, the same behavior, the same practices if you keep riding while you're learning my new way of introducing and reintroducing the writing. So yeah, I mean, liberty is really important. It's a constant test. And I can't tell you that I'm not gonna make more mistakes or learning opportunities as I venture into continuing my education and schooling of, of my horses today.

Caroline Beste (1h 10m 24s):
You know, now. But you live from your, you learn hopefully and you live from your experiences that, that doesn't get repeated. Liberty's really important. And, and like I said, you know, I wanna get, I wanna have the type of relationship where I have a constant open dialogue with my horse and they trust me and they know that I'm listening. And believe me, they'll nip at me. They'll let me know when I'm not listening. I love it. It's, it's all fair. It's just like they'll nip at each other. It's their language. It's their way of telling me, Hey, you're not listening, you're not paying attention. But Liberty's important liberty is, I, I would love to ask you, and I do all the time.

Caroline Beste (1h 11m 6s):
I don't tack my horses up in their stall. I don't put a halter on 'em unless I have to. I ask them to come out like my little four year old. Yes, he still needs a halter, but we're working on him coming out of his stall, staying connected to me. Not he's four though. So he is gonna lose his attention just like my 14 year old stepson is, you know, your teenagers, he's still gonna lose. You still have to keep structuring that without criticizing it by all means or punishing them. You just have to keep, you have to know that they're gonna lose their attention at the age of four or six, like Lydia's guy. You just gotta keep structuring it and supporting that, that eventually when they mature and they're ready, they'll adopt that way of focus and connection so that you can do liberty.

Caroline Beste (1h 11m 52s):
Come on out. I wanna groom you at liberty. I would like to tack you up at liberty, which means I don't put a halter on you or a Bitless bridal. I might put my saddle or my bareback pad and will you walk out with me at liberty to our training area? Cuz lord, it I've been there, I've screwed up and my horses have jumped fences to get away from me, have not come to me when they used to come to me all the time and have, you know, wanted to leave the, the training area. Yes.

Lydia P. (1h 12m 30s):
To me, liberty and what you've taught is so important because when you start listening to your horse, there's these layers that start to, you know, like layers of the onion that peel off and different things start to show up. And liberty is the test for how deep you've gotten with your horse. Like, might take two years to get to some places and figure out the check out when this happens or they feel this way about that thing. It might take, you know, a long time to find that one little thing just like us.

Lydia P. (1h 13m 10s):
What's the trigger and what's the deal? Yeah. Yes. What I love about your liberty method, because you're always asking the horse, how do you feel about this?

Caroline Beste (1h 13m 19s):
How do you Feel about this now? Thank you Lydia. I am, and that's the point I'm making about training. I wanna be able to walk my horse or my client's horses eventually out at Liberty or on a loose lead rope. And I wanna take that bridal or or bitless bridal or halter that I ride in. Most of the time I wanna take it off and do you, are you still with me or do you leave or do you run outta the round pen? And don't get me wrong, sometimes the work is hard and and I'm helping them work through, we're talking about rehabilitation, but I'm always questioning myself in a, in a positive way. You know, not in a, not in a self-esteem way, but I'm always, I'm trying to be as honest, the horse is as honest as you can get.

Caroline Beste (1h 13m 60s):
You know, if you listen, they'll tell you exactly how they feel. It doesn't always go well. And you have to have enough experience to know, wow, is that the horse? Is it me? Is it a combination? Sometimes things are really tough and you, you know, my program helps to develop you, to develop yourself and your horse so that you can work through those situations with, with more confidence and ability to say, Hey, and this is where, you know, a lot of coaching comes in with me, with my students. Like, Hey, you know, it's okay, you always wanna question yourself. The minute we start assuming that we know everything or what we're doing is always right, boy, it'll bite you in your ass really fast.

Caroline Beste (1h 14m 45s):
But yeah, I, I hope I answered the liberty. I mean liberty is, is is not just liberty and around Penn, you know, it's not just play, which is really important. And, and, and every horses have a high play drive. It's just instinctual for them. So some more than others of course, you know, look at Zor compared to Lovey. Oh my god, it's night and day. You know, Zora's play will be a little bit and then he is, he's done. You know, he is just one of the most lazy horses I've ever met. But he is also one of the biggest lovers and he's just such an amazing horse in so many ways. But I would never ask Zor Zor does Zora's learned that? The same things Lovey has. But I would, I don't ask Zor to participate the way Lovey chooses to participate.

Caroline Beste (1h 15m 30s):
That's where you honor and recognize the individual of within each horse and you, you understand what they're capable. Cuz if not, you'll ruin a horse like Zos or came to me ruined. And because he was so talented and, and they took advantage of that and and ran him into the ground, lovey came to me damaged too as a off the track race horse again for her speed and they damaged her. But they're two completely different personalities. So they need two very different ways of approaching the same work, approaching the same work. And again, two things I really wanna hone in.

Caroline Beste (1h 16m 12s):
And we mentioned this in our, one of our podcasts with you, Carolyn, about trail riding. The three of us getting together like the bucket list with more people. But you know, my bucket list is, is to get a used live-in quarter horse trailer cuz they're so expensive. You know, I don't need a new one that would never buy a new car or truck anyway. And, and you know, down the road travel with, with the people. I enjoy being with, you know, with the horses and trail ride. There's nothing for me, it makes me wanna cry. Some of my most fondest memories are trail riding up by Fair Hill in Maryland, which is, you know, nationally known for.

Caroline Beste (1h 16m 58s):
Its not endurance, but it's, it's what I wanna say. It's, it's hunt it's hills and it's, it's jumps and it's outdoor courses, but for trail riding. And I would go up there by myself even on a rainy day, cold winter, you know, Maryland Day with my lab when she was alive and my horse smokey when he was alive and I'd be all decked out in, you know, my winter gear and we would just ride all day. And there's nothing more gratifying than being bareback in a pad with your horse, feeling the warmth of them underneath of you, you know, going up these big hills and down these muddy slopes and into the water and him taking care of you. And you've got a rope halter on the lead ropes tied as a rain.

Caroline Beste (1h 17m 42s):
You got your best friend underneath of you and your other best friend, your dog by you. And just to have that to be out there in the elements felt amazing in nature and with the wildlife and having that connection with both my dog and my horse knowing that I was so protected and so connected, it is the most magical, beautiful, for me experience of my, one of them of my life. And that's what I want everyone to feel. I want you to feel that safe as a rider and in your relationship with your horse. I mean, what did the Indians do back before we domesticated them with bits and saddles?

Caroline Beste (1h 18m 25s):
They were riding these horses with just a string in their mouth and completely bare back. And these horses lived with them. They were part of their families. You know, they, it's really, it's real. It can be attainable. And as a working quotation instructor, don't, you know, my program gets you to second level dressage without a bit without a saddle. You know, everything in my program, once you work your way through the curriculum, you're now ready for the arena work. And you've done the in hand work, you've done the lunging, you're ready for the riding, you've embodied the movement, you have the connection, the permission to get on. Now you take that feel into the ride.

Caroline Beste (1h 19m 7s):
So yeah.

Carolyn W. (1h 19m 10s):
Well with with that said, I've got an actual list of courses that you offer and I think it's really important that people who are listening in see that they can take everything that they've heard in today's interview and they can pick and choose something that really applies to them. So I, I just, let me just take a minute here and read this off because it's really fascinating. So one of the online of the online courses that Caroline offers, you've got the Mastery Membership Riding Foundation program. You have the spirituality of horsemanship, bitless and Balanced Riding master class, which is something I would love to take if I still have a horse.

Carolyn W. (1h 19m 50s):
And we have a 12 week o t TB retraining course and that means an off the track thoroughbred, I always thought an off the track thoroughbred was just sent for dog food. I mean, think about that.

Caroline Beste (1h 20m 3s):
A lot of them are.

Carolyn W. (1h 20m 5s):
Yep. But now hey we've got a way to rehabilitate them. So now we've got restarting the Challenging Young Horse course. I should have taken that one too. Rechallenging Red. Appaloosa Standard Red

Caroline Beste (1h 20m 19s):
What a,

Carolyn W. (1h 20m 21s):
We have a Wild Mustang Training Course. We have a Holistic Horse Care and Wellness Course. And so besides these master classes, we Caroline offers what you're watching right now, we've got the Everything Horses & More! Podcast we have in-person immersions in clinics, coaching calls. I mean, can you imagine being able to pick up the phone and call someone when you're just up against the wall frustrated? She's also of course got these YouTube channel videos. We've got a Facebook community group and you know, saying that what, what I would like to do, since we need to wrap this up, I would like to do another podcast and focus on you Lydia, because I know that you've taken a lot of these courses and it would be really, really fun to hear from you everything you have been able to use and incorporate as someone who's actually been there.

Carolyn W. (1h 21m 16s):
You can you think about some stuff that you would like to tell us when we get together the next time on what you've learned from Caroline's course?

Lydia P. (1h 21m 22s):
Absolutely. I have a horse for every course. I've had a horse, every course.

Caroline Beste (1h 21m 28s):
I love it.

Lydia P. (1h 21m 29s):
Some of them don't even mine, you know, but yeah.

Caroline Beste (1h 21m 33s):
Well I wanna add, well no,

Carolyn W. (1h 21m 37s):
For the sake of listening, for the sake of the people listening in, this is what you have to look forward to. And I do have one more question for you, miss Caroline. Is there, I wrote this out, is there one thing or word that encapsulates your training method? And if so, what would it be? This so we can, and this wanna note that hurts people's curiosity

Caroline Beste (1h 22m 0s):
Before I, I do that, I just wanna let everyone know that every course that I offer stems from the mastery membership. The spirituality is included in the mastery membership. So is a holistic horse care. And so the o TTB is really about retraining any horse. I just chose the three thoroughbreds cuz I had them, I was rehabilitating them and there's restarting the challenged young horse. It everything that you guys like, they're short horses. But if you really wanna learn, you know, the in depth way of doing it, it's through the mastery membership. So they're kind of like, aw shoots. But I would say that the one word and it's hard hits so hard, I'd say transformational.

Caroline Beste (1h 22m 45s):
I say absolutely trans. I think so, wouldn't you Lydia? I mean, what would your word be? Lydia? You're a student.

Lydia P. (1h 22m 54s):
I I, the other one is two words, so it wouldn't matter. Wouldn't count. Life changing.

Carolyn W. (1h 23m 2s):
Those are,

Lydia P. (1h 23m 6s):
And I've done a lot of work, you know, I've done a lot of work personally and with animals and it's still life changing

Caroline Beste (1h 23m 17s):
And exciting. I think part of the life changing and the transformation when I listen to all my students cuz I'm, I'm too close to the work, you know, I'm just listening, remembering the emails I get and the comments and the testimonials. It's, it's the more, and I have a lot of students who have not in the big program who have not completed the big program and you know, I really wanna find a way in 2023 to help inspire or encourage them to continue. But the point I'm making is, and Lydia is one of the students that, that is committed and I have a few of them. Becky's on here too. And Emily, you know, there's a handful of them.

Caroline Beste (1h 23m 58s):
Unfortunately it's a big program, right? But you guys are so committed. So you continuously get surprised, believe it or not, as you keep, you know, learning and pushing yourself to learn and your horse and learning your horse, it gets richer, it gets more beautiful, it gets deeper. And it's not just about, you know, training your horse, you're developing yourself, you know, everything that we, we, it's so ironic, for the lack of a better word, or maybe it's a great word, how our horsemanship mirrors our life. The struggles that we have with our horses are mirrored so often in the struggles we have within ourself and with others that we're close to.

Caroline Beste (1h 24m 42s):
And so that personal developmental piece that's huge in my program. And Lydia can really attest to that because of AA in finding me. And she's always saying, my God, your program and I'm not in recovery. I'm, I'm not an alcoholic. I don't know the program. Aa, the Lydia, I won't speak for you, but you talk often about how my program mirrors the mirrors AA in its self-development or it's self-improvement or you know, the work that you do on yourself.

Lydia P. (1h 25m 17s):
And I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna tell you why really quick because there alcoholism is a disease and there's a doctor's opinion. And when a surgeon looks at how to heal or fix a person, there's a step by step process that he has to do when he opens you up to fix you. And then when he closes you up, he sends you home to be healed. Right. And it's step by step process. Yeah. So that's why it mirrors that. It's like when you get to a certain step, if the horse is telling you something, you get to go back to the first or the second,

Caroline Beste (1h 26m 1s):
Find the holes third and fix it And fix it. Yep. And fix it.

Lydia P. (1h 26m 5s):
It's a very easy process to follow because it's,

Caroline Beste (1h 26m 10s):
It's very structured, you know, I was just thinking and I had an aha cuz again, I'm so close to my work. But you know, I grew up in a dysfunctional alcoholic family and then I had a nervous breakdown and I had all that therapy for a couple years before I went off to college. And I read all these self-help and developmental books. You no wonder I created this program.

Lydia P. (1h 26m 30s):
You found it

Caroline Beste (1h 26m 31s):
Unbeknowns to me similarly to a self-help. You know, it's a self-help for us. But it's also, you know, the horse to me comes first. I wanna make it a better life for these horses. You know,

Lydia P. (1h 26m 42s):
You found a health crisis and I found Al-Anon. I found Al-Anon when I was 13 years old.

Caroline Beste (1h 26m 50s):
Wow. Wow, wow. Yeah. A lot of similarities. A lot of similarities.

Lydia P. (1h 26m 56s):
And it was the dysfunction of the disease that brought us to our knees to go looking for it to crawl for.

Caroline Beste (1h 27m 2s):
Yes. Oh that's beautifully put. That was beautifully put. A dysfunction of the disease that brought us to our knees. It sure did. It sure did.

Lydia P. (1h 27m 14s):
Olivia of the horse. That makes us think out of the box to try and help the horse.

Caroline Beste (1h 27m 18s):
Yes, yes.

Carolyn W. (1h 27m 21s):
So Lydia, have you found, are there some questions that are coming through for Caroline over your little internet?

Caroline Beste (1h 27m 28s):
Oh yeah. Does anybody have any questions?

Carolyn W. (1h 27m 32s):
Oh, the glasses always coming really handy. I found that out the hard way.

Lydia P. (1h 27m 36s):
I know. No, there's just comments. Just hi and Yeah, we're good. We're good.

Carolyn W. (1h 27m 42s):
Okay. Okay, well let's just, let's plan on doing this again and then let me incorporate, you know, the Lydia and Caroline thing together. Cause

Caroline Beste (1h 27m 51s):
There's,

Carolyn W. (1h 27m 51s):
So we can do easily another 90 minutes just on The two of you. And I'm already starting to formulate some questions in my mind based on conversations that I've had in the past with Lydia. And you know, I'm finding that even though my last horse passed away, you know, eight and a half years ago and my writing has been very limited since then, just with Fred, I have here that will take me out every now and then. It, it's just, it's you're, it's never too late to learn new training techniques. It's never too late to find out. There are different ways of doing things. It's never too late to think outside of the box. And I'm finding that your training methods are really unique and unusual and extremely effective from what I have learned today.

Carolyn W. (1h 28m 37s):
You wanna tell people where they can order your online courses? Is there a link they can go to

Caroline Beste (1h 28m 43s):
Or My website

Carolyn W. (1h 28m 44s):
For them?

Caroline Beste (1h 28m 46s):
My website and plus I did a big, I did a Christmas special banner for YouTube so they can all go to the banner on my YouTube channel and see that there's 20 to 50% off of DVDs and online courses. So the Dove horsemanship www dow horsemanship, they got it. They, they know where to find me. Oh, but

Carolyn W. (1h 29m 3s):
There's no no, there's gonna be some new people watching this that are gonna be just as fascinating.

Caroline Beste (1h 29m 8s):
That's true. This is gonna be on podcast. I keep forgetting it's a podcast. So duh. Well

Lydia P. (1h 29m 12s):
It's,

Carolyn W. (1h 29m 13s):
It's making me wish that I had found this 30 years ago or however long it's been since I, I was always button heads with my horse that I, my original horse, it would've made such a difference if I had been able to get in contact with her on a different level than a hotheaded teenage kid with a hotheaded six year old horse that had only known run, run, run, run, run when I got her. And I didn't know how to break that. But, you know, we don't wanna go into that. It's another story. I'm just thinking how different things would've been for me in my horse career had I known of these techniques. And of course granted, you and I are pretty close to the same age, so you, you hadn't even established them yet.

Carolyn W. (1h 29m 55s):
But I, if I met you, it would've been, wait you ride your horse without a saddle and a bridal. If I tried that on my, she would've taken me from Ohio to halfway through West Virginia. It wouldn't, it wouldn't have worked.

Caroline Beste (1h 30m 8s):
Yeah. But remember I didn't start there. Remember I didn't start there. Brandi and I, we didn't start there. So it's achievable for everybody. It's not some a magical little, it gets magical, don't get me wrong. But we did not start there you guys,

Carolyn W. (1h 30m 25s):
I'm just laughing at me actually at this

Lydia P. (1h 30m 28s):
Point. The coolest takeaway from this, the greatest hope is that you're never too old to have a horse

Caroline Beste (1h 30m 36s):
And start over and start over. Start

Lydia P. (1h 30m 38s):
Over and have a horse. Or get another horse or

Caroline Beste (1h 30m 43s):
Start fresh.

Lydia P. (1h 30m 45s):
Yeah. Cause I thought I was done. Don't tempt me. I thought it was done.

Carolyn W. (1h 30m 49s):
Don't tempt me. I got a lot of travel and I wanna do girlfriend, but don't tempt me on getting another horse. The horse trailer's already gone

Caroline Beste (1h 30m 56s):
So I've got a good fix. Caroline, you move to next door to Lydia. You keep your horse at Lydia so she can take care of it when you travel and you join the program and I'll come out there with my horses

Lydia P. (1h 31m 8s):
Andor and we'll get a camping and we'll go we'll and we'll get a live-in trailer and we'll go hit the road with our horses. Yep. Continue

Carolyn W. (1h 31m 21s):
Everybody see you all next time. I'm gonna have to okay

Caroline Beste (1h 31m 24s):
To, oh

Lydia P. (1h 31m 24s):
Wait, we're not

Caroline Beste (1h 31m 26s):
Real quick. Where we, where's your books? Where's Carolyn Waller's books here Lydia.

Lydia P. (1h 31m 32s):
We have trucks for girls.

Caroline Beste (1h 31m 34s):
Trucks are for girls. I love it.

Lydia P. (1h 31m 39s):
I'm one of those

Caroline Beste (1h 31m 42s):
Like a swarm of locus. I love it. And you can find our other podcasts about these books with Carolyn on Apple and Bricks Underneath the Hoop Skirt. Oh I love that. Those are like short stories, aren't they?

Carolyn W. (1h 31m 55s):
They're all like campfire stories. You can read 'em all individually, it doesn't beautiful. Have a solid flow. It's just

Lydia P. (1h 32m 1s):
Enjoyed them.

Carolyn W. (1h 32m 4s):
I thought you put those in your outhouse last time. They outhouse they

Lydia P. (1h 32m 10s):
Came with it's, they'll go in the outhouse after I'm done with them.

Caroline Beste (1h 32m 17s):
I love it. I love it. So we'll put contact information for Carolyn cuz it's only through email. She doesn't have a website. Not yet. And our next podcast real quick is next Wednesday, the 7th of December. And we are gonna have another awesome guest speaker, Nancy Zin, master Zins master. And she is a expert in Liberty training. She is also co-founder of Carolyn Resnicks Waterhole Rituals, liberty work.

Caroline Beste (1h 32m 57s):
And so basically she became a student of Carolyn Resnicks and then she is now co-founder of Carolyn's Waterhole Rituals. And we're gonna do a collaboration next week. She and I are both gonna talk about the work that we do at Liberty. So we're gonna really dive in deep and I can't wait to introduce Nancy, especially on behalf of Carolyn as well. Carolyn was the first woman to do Liberty work 40 plus years ago, you guys. And she will unfortunately not be available for this podcast, Carolyn Resnick. But if, if you're not familiar with Carolyn Resnick in the waterhole rituals, the book, the program, please familiarize yourself and then we'll get the next best thing, which is Nancy, her protege.

Caroline Beste (1h 33m 48s):
And that's gonna be really great. So that'll be next week.

Carolyn W. (1h 33m 53s):
How do, thank you. Do you spell the last name for Carolyn Resnick So I can go

Caroline Beste (1h 33m 57s):
R e Yep. R e s n i ck. Carolyn Resnick. She was the original. Yep. And she also did classical dressage, but she does, she, she didn't teach classical riding, she just really taught liberty in the water hole rituals and studying wild horses. So we'll learn more about that next week and then, yeah, I'm excited. So I'm really, really happy. Thank you. Thank girls. Thank you Carolyn. Thank you. Thank you Lydia. This was, we always have a great time. We have a great time together.

Carolyn W. (1h 34m 29s):
It was, I learned a lot today and I mean, it's just continual with this process.

Caroline Beste (1h 34m 35s):
Thank you. Thank you for giving me the opportunity. Look

Carolyn W. (1h 34m 37s):
Forward to you scheduling more of this because it's kinda nice to be out the hot seat myself and to, to ask questions and then get to sit back.

Caroline Beste (1h 34m 47s):
So many people don't about it. Love, love listening to you Carolyn. So I'm sure we're gonna be doing podcasts. We can just shoot the shit about horses and that'll be a lot of fun. So hey everybody, thanks for me in fun. God bless. Merry Christmas. Bye y'all later Byebye. Thank you. Bye.