Liberty Training – The Foundation to All Things Possible with Horses with Guest Speakers Nancy Zintsmaster, Liberty Expert and Co- Founder of Resnick Method Liberty Horsemanship, and Caroline Beste, Relationship, Rehabilitation and Riding as One™ Speciali

December 7th’s podcast is going to be a little different this time and exciting! I will be doing a collaborative interview with guest speaker Nancy Zintsmaster, expert liberty trainer and co-founder of the Resnick Method Liberty Horsemanship.

Both Nancy and I have a lot in common with liberty training being one of them! We will be sharing our experiences, personal stories, and a few of our secrets to why liberty training is the #1 building block to riding and Riding as One™ with horses.

I hope you join us as we discuss the fundamental principles of liberty training and why it’s the foundation of all things possible with horses – most of all making training stress-free and mutually enjoyable for both horses and humans.

“You have to grow from the inside out. None can teach you, none can make you spiritual. There is no other teacher but your own soul.” - Swami Vivekananda

May you always be one with your horse,
 Caroline

Transcript

Caroline Beste (1m 4s):
You're listening to Everything Horses & More! Podcast with me, your host, Caroline Beste. I am the founder of my Tao of Horsemanship Method, a pioneer and horse training and development, and a true advocate of the horse. I bring an intuitive and educated eye along with an experienced and intelligent perspective to understanding both horse and human nature and behavior. My experience and skill sets are the cornerstone to my worldwide success in training methodology. My experience with horses as intelligent sentient beings is what inspired me to create my highly acclaimed and proven training method. Consensual partnership training for horses and humans.

Caroline Beste (1m 44s):
A model I pioneered in 2008. Consensual Partnership Training provides a comprehensive and impressive curriculum, teaching horse owners how to fully develop their horses using a holistic, empathetic, and natural process. My training system teaches you how to achieve true partnership with horses and without the use of pain, excessive pressure, dominance, force, or coercion. In addition to being a world class trainer for both horses and people, I'm an artist, author, entrepreneur, speaker, radio show host, licensed working equitation trainer. In Riding Foundation specialist, I offer one of the largest and most comprehensive online educational platforms, the do of horsemanship, where I host a variety of courses produced and personally taught by me and my amazing school masters.

Caroline Beste (2m 36s):
In addition to sharing what I know in my in-person training and online courses, I invite special guests and students each month to my radio show, everything, horses, and More podcast. This platform allows us to engage with all of you and share our very personal and transformational journey with horses. I invite you to listen in and hope you find something that helps inspire you to reach your personal goals and aspirations with your horse. Thank you. And may you always be one with horses.

Caroline Beste (3m 27s):
Welcome back everybody. Hello. You all know who I am. Caroline Beste of the Tao of Horsemanship. This is everything Horses and more weekly, monthly live streaming podcast. Podcast. We are here to educate, liberate, and inspire horse owners around the world. Y'all know who my lovely co-host is? We've got Lydia Primavera and today. Hi Lydia. Today we have a special guest. We have Hi Nancy. We have Nancy Nancy Zintsmaster of the Carolyn Resnik Waterhole Ritual Method. Yay. Welcome.

Nancy Z. (4m 1s):
Thank you. Thank I much. I'm happy to be here.

Caroline Beste (4m 5s):
Yes, you are the co-founder of Resick Method, Liberty Horsemanship. All right. I wanna say that correctly. Go. Yeah, well welcome.

Nancy Z. (4m 14s):
This is exciting, Caroline. I'm very excited to be here.

Caroline Beste (4m 18s):
Ah, thanks. So today we're gonna be, our title is Liberty Training, and it's a collaborative interview, so to speak, between Nancy and I about each other's work. The similarities are intense and so today we're gonna be talking about Liberty training, the foundation to all things possible with horses, with guest speaker speakers, Nancy Zintsmaster Liberty expert and co-founder of the Resnick Method, Liberty Horsemanship. How many of you know Carolyn Resnick? And me? Caroline Beste. I am a relationship rehabilitation and Riding as One Specialist. So we're gonna, we're gonna begin. So this, like I said, this is a little bit different.

Caroline Beste (5m 1s):
Usually I just interview guests, but because I am a fan of your work, and I never knew you, but I, I met Carolyn Resnick back in 2006. I don't know if she'll remember it, but we had a phone conversation. I was in Maryland. I just started, I just got back into horses and was developing my approach, my, my methodology and I think, yeah, I think it was 2006. And I was really struggling. I had like been studying with some of the top professionals and, and traveling and I had my, my trinity, my, my three horses that I got back into horses with and something.

Caroline Beste (5m 49s):
It just wasn't working. All the technique, the mechanics, I had lost my soul in, I'd lost my soul, you know, my spirit for the work. And I can't recall, you know, the internet wasn't like it is today in 2006. Yeah. But I do remember trying to find like spirituality, cuz I'm all about spirituality and horses and the, and I was searching on the internet and the only thing that came up was Carolyn's book. Oh, what was that? What's that book called? Naked

Nancy Z. (6m 20s):
Liberty. Naked Liberty. Amazing memoir. Yeah. Yes,

Caroline Beste (6m 24s):
Yes. So I went and ordered it or bought it. I don't even know if Amazon was

Nancy Z. (6m 31s):
There.

Caroline Beste (6m 33s):
No, I don't even remember. God, we're dating ourselves. But I read the book and that's how I found her website and got in contact with her. And officially I was her first coaching student. Wow. So yeah, she's, she was thinking about getting into coaching. Yeah. And I know I didn't Yeah.

Nancy Z. (6m 54s):
Coaching on online. Yeah. Yeah. Ok. That's right. Cause that was right about when she started that, that inside circle thing. Yeah.

Caroline Beste (7m 4s):
Yeah. I wanted to save that little nugget. I didn't tell you about that. Cause I wanted to, cause it's, it's cool.

Nancy Z. (7m 10s):
Yeah,

Caroline Beste (7m 11s):
It is really cool. And my fascination with, with Carolyn was all about the liberty and Sure. And we'll talk more when I, after I introduce you and we get into to talking more about you, how, you know, why Liberty became so important to me. Sure. And it was the big missing piece in my, in my studies at the time, even though everyone was, you know, trying to attract you with liberty is like, no matter where I went or traveled or studied with, I was like, this isn't liberty. This isn't what I remember with my late horse. Yeah. And so, you know, you keep searching, you keep asking the right questions and I found Carolyn. And so I studied the water hole rituals to a point I didn't commit myself.

Caroline Beste (7m 53s):
Meaning I had my own, you know, way and, and relationship with my late horse with Liberty and writing bridals and, and Bitless and all that. So, but I, but the connections was beautiful for me. It connected. I could connect to her work so beautifully. Yeah. It was so akin to me. And here we are today. It's really cool. Just by happenstance you and I met,

Nancy Z. (8m 18s):
We sure did. That was funny. Yeah,

Caroline Beste (8m 23s):
It was. So, Nancy, I'm gonna read a little bit about you for those of you that are, are not familiar with Nancy, co-founder of, of Carolyn Resnick's work. So Nancy is, as I just explained, co-founder, master trainer, and certified clinician in the Resnick method, Liberty Horsemanship. And you reside in Costa Rica?

Nancy Z. (8m 43s):
I do,

Caroline Beste (8m 44s):
Yeah. Oh my gosh. So you guys should check out her website and you can just go to Carolyn Resnick. What is your website?

Nancy Z. (8m 54s):
It's, it's carolynresnick.com. Yeah,

Caroline Beste (8m 58s):
We'll be right back.

Caroline Beste (9m 41s):
Yep. Yep. And I think there's, there might be video or some pictures of your beautiful

Nancy Z. (9m 46s):
Facility. Yeah. And the events page, they can see that. Yeah. It's a special

Caroline Beste (9m 49s):
Place. It is. It looks amazing. So Nancy is a testament to the transformational power of Carolyn Resnick's Methody Method of Liberty training the water hole rituals. Like many, she'd been naturally drawn to horses since childhood salt their company every chance she got. But it wasn't until she found Carolyn's book Naked Liberty that she understood the depth of connection she could aspire to have with horses in Costa Rica. Nancy found herself rescuing five horses in dire conditions and choosing the path of liberty training and the Resick method to gain their trust and respect. What began as an effort to save these horses.

Caroline Beste (10m 31s):
It morphed into a journey of personal transformation. And it became clear to her that these sentient beans had so much more to teach her than she had to teach them. Isn't that always the truth?

Nancy Z. (10m 43s):
It is so true.

Caroline Beste (10m 46s):
Finally, she connected with Carolyn herself and a life changing partnership began. Carolyn was impressed with her natural gift with horses and moved by her little palpable passion for Carolyn's teachings. Nancy has since then become the biggest advocate for the Resnick method firm in her belief that all horse lovers should have the same opportunities she had to connect with horses as master trainer. In this method, she's determined to travel worldwide to spread the word on this powerful and effective way to communicate with horses to ensure a better treatment of horses with greater rewards for horse lovers.

Caroline Beste (11m 28s):
You can find her with her rescue horses in on her ranch, dance with horses. I love that. In Costa Rica, situated at the top of her own mountain overlooking Lake Aal and the aal, is that how you say it? Arol Arnold, or a AAL Arnold Volcano. That is, it's amazing. The pictures are just amazing. Yeah, I can only,

Nancy Z. (11m 51s):
It's pretty magical place. I have to pinch myself every day. You know, you get used to where you live and then you go, oh yeah, look at this place. How

Caroline Beste (11m 59s):
Long have you been there? Yeah.

Nancy Z. (12m 1s):
How long have you been in? 20 years? Yeah. Yeah.

Caroline Beste (12m 4s):
Wow. And how long have you had your farm?

Nancy Z. (12m 7s):
Same. We bought this piece of coffee and before we lived in Key West Florida and we didn't have horses there, so it was kind of the deal I made with my husband about retiring here. She said, that's cool. But I have horses again. And so we had the, had the farm, but it's morphed into a retreat center now. So

Caroline Beste (12m 27s):
Yes, retreat. It's beautiful. What a place. All right, so I've got a bunch of questions. Are you

Nancy Z. (12m 33s):
Ready? I'm ready.

Caroline Beste (12m 35s):
Okay. And of course you can go off in any question, you know, I might inspire something completely different. So you take, I'll start it and you take the lead.

Nancy Z. (12m 45s):
Thank you.

Caroline Beste (12m 46s):
First question I have for you, can you tell me how it all started for you? What sparked your interest in horses? Where did it begin?

Nancy Z. (12m 55s):
It began back when I was a young child. My grandfather, he was quite the horse whisperer and he had a Walsh pony breeding farm. And we lived in the city and all of our cousins lived near him in the farm, in the eastern shore of Maryland. So, you know, I up that right, that's amazing in common that we, we have a lot in common about our upbringing. But yeah, so we would go from, you know, the area Silver spring to the Eastern shore on the weekends. And it felt like it was like a long trip. One hour though, when you're little and we could have wait to get there. And every weekend my popup would put us on the horses and he was so patient. And walk us around in circles.

Nancy Z. (13m 37s):
And I'll never forget this one time, and I think by then I was like six. I had I, he gave me a horse and we all the, the grandchildren got a horse, you know, and Melody was her name. And he was quite strict too, about safety and how we were supposed to be with horses'. And this horse did not wanna leave the barn area to go out into this pasture where he wanted me to ride. And he was all about, you know, bare back and just with a halter and everything. And so I couldn't get the horse to get away from the barn. And he was like, yeah, you know, and kind of gave him a little tap and this horse took off.

Nancy Z. (14m 17s):
I can't believe he did that to me. Now when I think back, like as a grandparent myself, I And his horse was like flying around the pasture. And my uncles farmers, you know, they were cracking up. They thought it was hysterical. And my mom, who was the city slick, cuz she kind of got away from the, she was freaking out and I was having a ball. I was a little scared obviously, but I was holding onto Maine. I had my seat bareback and I never came off the horse. And from then on I'm like, this is it for me. I just wanted to do, you know. And so that's kind of how my love for horses started. And so every weekend or every summer, I couldn't wait to get back there just to be with those horses and hang out in the pasture and just, you know, the same dream we all have as a young girl.

Nancy Z. (15m 5s):
If we love horses,

Caroline Beste (15m 7s):
That's where it starts. You're right. So many of us have similar stories. That's beautiful. Yeah. So how would you describe your method of liberty training for people who are unfamiliar with your approach?

Nancy Z. (15m 22s):
Sure. Yeah. Well this is a method that, Carol,

Caroline Beste (15m 26s):
Let me ask you this real quick. Let me ask you this. Where, how did, and it might have been one of these questions, I'm just, I might be skipping around a little bit. Sure. But before you talk about the uniqueness of your liberty method, why were you drawn to liberty?

Nancy Z. (15m 42s):
Okay, that's, I'm glad you asked that cuz that is an important part of the story. So, after I got back into horses, which was here in Costa Rica, I, my husband bought me a horse for my birthday. And then of course we had to get another horse, so wouldn't be alone. So we had these two great horses and we were riding all the time and just kind of being semi-retired. And we went to look for a saddle. And I came across four shut down, really emaciated horses that needed rescuing. And when I say Ford, this was a herd. I had rescued another one just after that, Apache, who is amazing now, but he was very aggressive, dangerous horse People couldn't handle him and didn't, he was ready to go to the meat market, basically here in Costa Rica.

Nancy Z. (16m 27s):
So I rescued him and I rescued these four horses and they were so checked out, all of 'em. And I hadn't experienced that before because I always, any horse I had in my life, and I had a horse farm in Maryland, you know, in my thirties. I didn't have that because I spent a lot of time with my horses.

Caroline Beste (16m 43s):
And it's, it's a sadness when they're checked out like that. You can feel it and see it.

Nancy Z. (16m 48s):
Yeah. And here, not all, but there's a lot of that here because horses are used for work and you know, they're, they're not. Yeah. And so they're, and if people don't have food to put on their table, they're not feeding their horse. You know, the horse is gonna go out and get what it can off the land. So these horses were really, really shut down. And I gave the lady an ultimatum. We went to look at a saddle and they were there. And I had, actually, it's a weird story and I won't spend a lot of time on it, but I had looked at these horses years before that when I was looking to buy a horse. And they were all really young and green stallions, you know. And then the mayor, of course was there and I, it wasn't for me.

Nancy Z. (17m 31s):
So I passed on it. But I knew who the woman was and she actually kind of hoarded animals. She had tons of animals, exotic cats and all kinds of stuff. But these horses were so thin and so hungry. There was a three month old cult, you know, nursing on the mom who was eating rocks. And it was just a mess. So I, she was in the States at the time and her caretaker was there and said, we don't have enough money. She's not sending enough money. I said, let me talk to her. So I told her, I said, I'm gonna take these horses outta here, you know, we will figure the rest out later, but they're coming with me. She agreed. So from there on, I just planned to kind of bring them back to health and adopt them out. But I was too new in Costa Rica to realize that wasn't gonna happen.

Nancy Z. (18m 12s):
No one's gonna adopt these horses out and treat them the way I had. And it took me a year to bring 'em back to health. Now they're a unified herd with my other three and I'm attached. So we were in the property management business and we were building vacations for people. So I started bringing likeminded clinicians in that could help me get to the heart of these horses. Cause I hadn't experienced that. And I didn't have formal training as a trainer. I just kind of always knew what to do with horses, you know? And I brought in a lot of 'em. And nothing was, nothing was resonating with my horses or me. It was just not the right fit. You know, different types of natural horsemanship and different things.

Nancy Z. (18m 54s):
Until Carolyn sent, I, I, I found out about Carolyn from a close friend here who said, have you ever heard of her? And I'm like, I, I have, but I don't know of her work. Read the book, got all her videos, and then she sent a trainer and it completely transformed my life and my horse's lives forever. From the moment that that woman started that clinic, my horses were checking in and with Fi. And then five days after she left, Apache actually jumped in my arena. It was locked. And he came from, the pastor jumped in the arena cuz I was told to make it the sweet spot. I made it the sweet spot, you know? And this was like transformational. I couldn't believe it.

Nancy Z. (19m 34s):
It was like magic. And I'm not kidding. It was just that magical. So I just got really into it and excited about it. And then I knew what to do now. So I was doing it and then all of this magic was happening. And I said, you know, to my husband, I always wanted to be a horse trainer. My parents would not let me do it. They said I had to go to college and I could do it as a hobby. But it, you know, same thing if you wanna be an artist back then and um-huh You know, I didn't, I went to, I bathed the parents, you know, I went to college and then I got away from it. I went into business. I've been an entrepreneur my whole life. I never really worked for anyone else. And then I said, this is my path.

Nancy Z. (20m 15s):
This is my journey. I was meant to do this. This is my purpose. Like, I finally had a purpose and it was gonna be that I was gonna share this method. And it was funny cuz Linda said to me, whatever you do when you meet Carolyn, do not tell her you wanna be a teacher certified teacher because she's gonna ask you when are you gonna be the student? Cause I knew already, I wanted to just share it with the world before I was even really in it long, you know, I remember. So then I studied with her in that insider circle thing that you were talking about, her masterclass, which was like before the times of master classes that she did on Insta Tele seminar.

Nancy Z. (20m 55s):
And I met her on there and she barely ever coached me. She would just be like, nice. And I was starting to like feel like, what is she, why isn't she talking to me about my, you know what I'm doing? I have to be doing something wrong or whatever. Come to find out, I called her for privates. I said, okay, I wanna study with you privately. And it ended up that she was so impressed with the magical relationship I had with the horses cuz they were always like laying all around me, you know, when I was sharing. And she was blown away by that and didn't wanna touch me because she said, I don't wanna wreck that. Like, whatever's happening there. It might not be about one of my exercises, but it's what we're looking for.

Nancy Z. (21m 37s):
So she left it alone and I started working with her and then I just, she asked me right away, do you wanna teach the method? I was like, yes. So she started putting, she put lot, I mean years and hours and months worth of time to making sure that she taught me all of the nuances of this method. And it has been a magical relation. I say that word magical all the time. Sorry. But it's just so amazing to me. I'm,

Caroline Beste (22m 6s):
It's

Nancy Z. (22m 7s):
Because to see this communication system transform horses like that, you know, you're in liberty training and it's true liberty, right? It's not patterned liberty where we're teaching on the line and then taking off the halter. It's not treat training. We work, but in a different way. So for me it makes so much sense. And my whole entire being was about, I, all I really wanted to do was give horses a better deal. And that's Carolyn's mission. And so, you know, seeing these horses that if you had to take the worst of the worst shut from, from the way humans had treated them, to see them the way they are today is a testament to the, the method itself.

Nancy Z. (22m 51s):
So that's how I became in interested in liberty training because it was what I was exposed to that worked for me.

Caroline Beste (22m 60s):
Yeah. Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I can relate. So well, I I, anybody that is interested in liberty, how could, how can that not resonate with you? You know? Right.

Nancy Z. (23m 10s):
Well even if you're not interested in liberty, if you could see transformation where a horse is free and he can have it, he

Caroline Beste (23m 18s):
Can only start there. It can only start there. That's the key. You know, what I wanna drive home with liberty to all of you is you can't, you can't have this level of horse human consciousness. The transformation for us and the horses on so many levels, oh gosh. You know, personal to to the horse's ability to trust us, to the communication, to the cohesiveness, to the partnership. It's truly not gonna happen unless you start with liberty. Absolutely. Because a horse is free, a horse has choice and you're learning how to get permission. You're learning how to, to get the favor, get the, earn the respect, earn the trust.

Caroline Beste (24m 1s):
Yes. And in that process, you learn so much about yourself.

Nancy Z. (24m 6s):
Absolutely. You have to. Because if you can't go in and be there, be a hundred percent present, be authentic to who you are. The horse sees right through that. Right? They're not feeling safe in our company. Then they're like, I don't know who you are, but when you can get real, I'll check

Caroline Beste (24m 24s):
In. Or I dunno what's going on, but I don't like it. I'm outta

Nancy Z. (24m 28s):
Here. I'm over there. I'll wait until you get

Caroline Beste (24m 31s):
It together. And that's the beauty,

Nancy Z. (24m 34s):
That is the beauty of what I love about the way Carolyn has put together this method of communication. You know, it was based on her observation of horses in nature. And that's what she wrote her book about. And because she observed these natural interactions with the horses and started, she didn't go there, do that, say, I'm gonna put together a liberty program. She did that. And then as a young girl, everything changed between her and her horses. So she was doing things, she didn't know what they were necessarily, but the biggest part of it was waiting for the horse to make that first interaction with us sitting there asking for nothing and letting the horse invite us into his world instead of us always going at the horse for something.

Nancy Z. (25m 21s):
And that's where it really shifts for the horse. Cause that's when they say, I I want you to come into my world. And you can say, ah, I'm ready. You know?

Caroline Beste (25m 32s):
Yes. I think that's the hardest for people because we're, we are hardwired to be so linear and focused and task oriented. And we, you really have to get outside your head and be committed to learning the language of the horse and what works for the horse, not what works for us until we make that switch. Cause cuz I've been on the other side. I've been on both sides. Yeah. I, I started out, I started out innocent and, and, and learned like Carolyn did liberty with my late horse at the age of nine and 10 and all the things I teach today. But I wasn't thinking about it. I didn't know what I was doing happened organically.

Caroline Beste (26m 15s):
So when I came back into horses, I had to rethink that. Carolyn, making that connection with Carolyn helped me get back to that, that that place within me, you know, and away from all that technicalities and the mechanics and the robotics and the condition, you know, the positive negative reinforcement crap, the pressure and the release, the conditioning response, the treats. It, it, it ruined me when I got back into horses and I was just so ready to learn and eager as a student, but I was learning a lot of the wrong things. So I've been on both sides. Leave me and not wanna come back because I was,

Nancy Z. (26m 58s):
That's a hard one. And one of the things that was such a blessing for me, even though it was something that made me feel like maybe I wouldn't excel as much in it was the opposite because I didn't have any of that. I only had the formal training that came to me was these clinicians that I brought here that were doing natural different natural horsemanship methods. But I didn't have formal training before that. I didn't have anything that twisted my mind into thinking I had to do it this way. So that thing that happened here on my ranch with my horses that I didn't know was so amazing until Carolyn actually told me was because I didn't have an agenda and I was out there.

Nancy Z. (27m 40s):
I didn't know what I was gonna do with them. I just wanted to be with them. And therefore that bond grew so deeply that anything I asked them to do after that was easy. Yes. That was the thing, you know, so it worked out well for me because I didn't have to undo and you had to undo, you know, you have to go rewind too

Caroline Beste (28m 2s):
Much a little bit. I'd only been a year in, so I was fortunate and all I could do. Yeah. And a year in with multiple different people, all I had to do was sit back and take, I just stopped. I stopped period. I stopped for like months with my horses and I just had to read and journal and go back to what did work. Sure. I wasn't, I was fortunate in that I know what you're saying. Yeah. I didn't have any formal education other than trying this one and that one. And, and I was so ambitious and so agenda and so goal-oriented. Yeah. And so linear, you know, that was a huge learning curve, just knowing your own personality and being type A and entrepreneur like yourself, you know?

Caroline Beste (28m 46s):
Yes. You, I don't know if you're, I think you're Type A too,

Nancy Z. (28m 50s):
Probably. I'm definitely a type A and I definitely wanted a map. Like I used to beg Marilyn, tell me what to do. She's like, Nope, figure it out. I had to figure it out. You figured, you know, she is not paper. Yeah. But I'm like, I need step one then I can do so. I'm not anymore. But it took me a while to get off that for sure. To really, oh yeah. Keep me in it and figure it out. You know? Me

Caroline Beste (29m 17s):
Too. That's the personal growth. Yeah. That's the big transformation though. It's like if you, if you own it, you know, you allow yourself to face those fears, those demons, whatever you wanna call 'em. Weaknesses in yourself. Yeah. If you allow yourself to own it. And my biggest teachers were my horses too. So my, my Arab, I tell the story all the time. I mean, he just, you know, I wasn't gonna let anybody tell me what to do or, or you know, I had to figure it out. I'm stubborn and I have a lot of integrity, you know, I still wanted to figure things out for myself. But I was hitting a brick wall and my Arab just kept hitting me right back, like, Nope, nope, nope.

Caroline Beste (29m 58s):
You know, you're gonna have to figure this out or I want nothing to do with you. So that was a huge drive to me. I was like, holy cow, this really sucks. Oh, well this personal development stuff is really hard. I didn't know I was up for that. All that.

Nancy Z. (30m 19s):
I honestly said this to somebody just not too long ago. I've been successful in all the businesses that I've had, but I realized through the horse horses and how difficult this journey is that it is the hardest thing that I've ever had to do was to really take a look inside and to really, I wanted this so badly that I can tell you it was the hardest thing that I've ever done. And then I realized something about myself. I chose things that I excelled at to be in business. Things that I'd like, things I knew I could do well. So they were easy for me. So when I got into this, it wasn't that easy for me because of the part where it's about going personal.

Nancy Z. (31m 5s):
Yeah. The personal growth. And so, you know, now we have people like you and people like Carolyn and me sharing with people how to get there, you know? But I don't think in the past there has been that many that have done it our way. You know? And I say our way, even though it's a different method, but you have the same idea of how it has to start. Yes. You know what I mean?

Caroline Beste (31m 30s):
Goals.

Nancy Z. (31m 30s):
Right. And people are profoundly excited that they can see these shifts in the horse immediately and without having to do much. So that's the part I think that keeps people

Caroline Beste (31m 44s):
The biggest piece is us. Yes. The biggest piece is us. And Yeah. Yeah. I I, I know, you know, you and I spoke a few times before we had this podcast, today's podcast getting to know each other and make sure it was a good fit. And it was. It is. Yeah. But I, I'm just still amazed that we have so much in common. I know from where we grew up lived, our personalities, our similarities, our, you know, being entrepreneurs, you know, things we've struggled with personally. But yeah. This, this liberty thing. I mean, if I could never ride again, I wouldn't have to. And, and Liberty, I just want everybody to know too that that liberty, you know, we have this, this thought in our mind, Liberty and I did for a long time, even as a professional.

Caroline Beste (32m 33s):
I don't think it, it was until I slowed down and pulled back from my business a few years ago to focus on all the, the online content. I wanted to create Sure. That I, that I, I took, that I pulled back from my, my work with my horses and I really absorbed the thought in the, the actualization. The knowing that every day I have my, every encounter with my horses throughout the day is liberty is an opportunity to be free with them in connection and conversation. That liberty doesn't have to be, okay, let's go to the round pen or let's go to the yes for the pasture and make something happen.

Caroline Beste (33m 17s):
Liberty is an opportunity that you choose with the intention of, I wanna connect with you, I wanna have a conversation with you. I want it to be free. I want us to find a way to agree and, and want us both to want to work together. Be in everything you do.

Nancy Z. (33m 39s):
That's exactly, that's the way it should be. And that's one of the things that I love about this method in, in our masterclass. I'm always saying to people, you know, look at the practical reason that we're learning this exercise. How are you going to use this in your everyday life while you're interacting with your horse? It's not about performance. So we don't

Caroline Beste (33m 58s):
Problem,

Nancy Z. (33m 59s):
Right. We're not addressing problems. It's not about the performance. And so what happens is, if you're not addressing problems,

Caroline Beste (34m 7s):
That relationship,

Nancy Z. (34m 7s):
Right, and you're not pushing through resistance and you're only focused on the relationship, it speeds up the training. So on the other side, you've already got like the horse is trained. I never had to train my horses to get a saddle on them, teach them, break them all that because Correct. They're already there. They're like, I know that. I know that. You know, I'm like,

Caroline Beste (34m 30s):
And I talked to, that's the beauty of the relationship in performance. I had never thought of it about it in that, in that word. And that's the perfect word. That, that were, you know, me included, I've been there, you know, you're so stuck on the goal, the agenda, the performance, the task. How do I look? How should it look? Yes. And, and you forget that why are you in this to begin with? You should be in it for the relationship, the connection, the peace and the harmony that it gives both of you. And when you can achieve that level of trust, anything's possible. Like you just said, you, you, even when it comes to rehabilitation, which is, which is a lot harder cuz you've got so many layers of damage.

Caroline Beste (35m 11s):
Yes. I'm not, you know, that's one thing I wanted to talk about too. I mean, liberty, you know, I don't know how or how much you work with traumatized forces and rehabilitation and the method. I know I've spent most of my career rehabilitating horses in my method. Yes. To give them the foundation so that they can blossom and be trusting. But boy, there's a, you know, know,

Nancy Z. (35m 37s):
Well they almost all need to be rehabilitated because I rarely come across a horse in a clinic or in a private session or at a rep that is just mentally stable. And Okay. Because a lot of people don't even know what liberty is. I had somebody in this one little post that I posted, horse mimics human, which was this cool spontaneous thing that happened to, a friend of mine has gone viral. And these people are going, what is liberty? What is liberty? And I'm shocked by it. I, I went to South Florida where my husband's family lives and they're like, why don't you start doing clinics here so we can see you more? And I went to a couple local equestrian centers and they didn't know what it was.

Nancy Z. (36m 20s):
I'm a

Caroline Beste (36m 21s):
Fish water here I am a fish. I mean, I have students in Florida, but believe me, Florida's a mecca for horses. Right. In every discipline I have the world equestrian center, 20 minutes up the road from me. And they are so disciplined oriented, you know, it it performance oriented. Yeah. It's, it's a different world. It's a different mindset.

Nancy Z. (36m 43s):
It's different. And when I explain this, which you asked me, what is your type of liberty training, which I will get to, but I, when I explain it, I think sometimes people go, yeah, right. Like could it really be that easy? You know? Yes. And I wrote a blog not too long ago, could something this good be this easy? And it was, it's, and a recipe inspired me. I read that and I'm like, that's the horsemanship. It's not very hard. People overthink it, you know. But yeah, I, I think what makes Carolyn's method so appealing to me and why it makes sense to me is because it's based on the natural instincts of the horse completely.

Nancy Z. (37m 26s):
And when she put this method together, these water hole rituals that she called these seven rituals, they each build on the next one. But they're all based on the instinct that horses have when they're born. You know? And so the way they interact with their mother, the way the mayor teaches the full, you know, the reason we work around food a lot, not treating, but food is just because it's the first lesson. A full learns when he is born, when to nurse, when not to nurse. It teaches flexible boundaries. It teaches the horse sometimes. I'm gonna let you be close, but sometimes I want you over there. And one of the biggest things I see that people have a problem with from all of the online, meaning with Ack groundwork, things that they do is that they can't get the horse to get away from 'em.

Nancy Z. (38m 18s):
You know? Yeah. So that taps 'em into their natural instincts. So, but they're kept so close on a 12 foot line so much or in a round pen where they really have no freedom whatsoever. That's the one thing that we don't work with, is a round pen. Now we do for advanced work, you know, transitions. But we, I can work in a round pen cuz I'm never gonna pressure the horse to face up. But people tend to do it thinking the horse is at liberty, but they're still pushing the horse. And the horse has nowhere to go. So this form of liberty is about the horse being in a free and open environment where he has a choice, he has a voice. We get to know the horse while we're sitting in the chair.

Nancy Z. (38m 60s):
We get to know and see who he is. So then we can begin to shape his behavior. So once he starts to interact with us, that's when we start to set boundaries and the horse then goes, oh wow. There's a leader. There's my leader. Which is what they want. Right. That keeps them feeling safe. So there's these little things that are easy to do that are creating this bond, this trust. You know, if you think about dogs and horses, the reason we're so connected to our dogs and they listen to us, we can just talk to them, is because we live with them. So if you spent that much time, like I did with Pericles, who's a whole nother story that a horse I got that was whoa, he just needed time.

Nancy Z. (39m 45s):
I spent time with him and he's like a dog now. Like he would follow me anywhere. So, you know, I think that people need to go back to thinking about, you know, showing up at a, at a stable once a week is, if it's all you can do, it's all you can do. But it isn't developing that, that connection that the horse gets to know us on that level. Really.

Caroline Beste (40m 6s):
Yeah. Yeah. And without pressure, you know, that a connection without pressure, with just really getting to know each other and Yeah. That's beautifully put. And that's a, that's the difference between your method and my method is I recommend that everybody starts in a small space or a round pen, but I go about it differently than you do in my this for that is because most horses are so inhumanely abused in the round pen. In in Yes. It's like, how I don't know what you do and we don't have four days or four more hours to, cuz it can get so deep.

Caroline Beste (40m 47s):
Sure. But in my experience, you know, when I meet a student in a horse for the first time, I do an assessment. I don't just start working with them. And it's a, it's a, it's a test for the horse to see what you know and how you feel. And it's done in a small space, like a round pen. But it's, and how you feel about pressure and like you just said, you know, I don't, I don't wanna go in there and put pressure on the horse, but how do you feel about pressure? Because 99% of the horses hate pressure. Sure. It is, it's such a negative association. And then they just flip out and, and you can't get anywhere. So there's, it's, it's a different way of going about

Nancy Z. (41m 27s):
There's a fine line. Yes, there's a fine line because it's, it's about the pressure, it's about about lunging in and around Planet Liberty. It's about saying, you know, and I, I mean just saying to the horse, you know what, you just run until you can face up isn't what you do. And it isn't what I do. It's not, and yeah. And if the horse has the freedom to choose what, like I said, I could go into a round pen what happens and what I've noticed, and I don't do the same work as you, but that would work too if I did what you're doing would for sure. Because you're saying, you know, you're not putting pressure on the horse where he can't escape. That's the whole point about the round pen.

Nancy Z. (42m 8s):
If he can't escape, then he can't escape your influence. It's not true freedom. But if, you know, but if I go into a ramp when I, and I've had to teach clinics in them when it's pouring rain or something and people don't wanna be out in it. And I just make sure that the horse knows he can still go that way. If he doesn't wanna go that way,

Caroline Beste (42m 28s):
You're getting to know them. And that's, that's so, it's so cool. Yeah. It's so cool. I love it. I love what you do. I love what I do. I love how similar it is. But we go about, you know, a little bit differently, but

Nancy Z. (42m 43s):
It's the same result, it's the same end result. We're building a deep that's gonna, you know, bring this bonded reed respectful horse so that they want to be with us. That's the bottom line.

Caroline Beste (42m 57s):
And they, they work with us.

Nancy Z. (42m 59s):
The true test is when you take off the tack. Right. Is the horse gonna go way far away or is he wanna be with you and stay there?

Caroline Beste (43m 6s):
Yes. God, I say that all the time. I try to show that a lot of my YouTube videos, you know, I'll get done riding like Lovey was my star pupil the last few years. I haven't done any filming this year. Like I said, I've really taken a step back with a lot of health concerns with my family. Sure. It's important. You know, family, you know, family comes first. But you know, you'll see Lovey, I'm, I take, I tack her up at Liberty. She's either in the aisle or out in the field or you know, the training area. And when I get off the Bitless bridle comes off and she's dopey. Yeah. It's like all, you know, I love you mom. This felt so good.

Nancy Z. (43m 46s):
That's what we

Caroline Beste (43m 47s):
Want. That's, yeah. I'm like, I mean my, I can't imagine it. That's the magic. And when you have that level of trust and partnership and connection, like you keep saying your work is easy because you, the hardest part is trusting each other. Once you can trust each other like us right. Then conversation's easy and the chemistry's there and you gotta listen. You gotta keep, as humans, we gotta keep training ourselves to slow down and listen though, don't bite the horse a lot to say it's just real subtle sometimes or loud. But it's, it's just so cool because the, the safety is there because they're always thinking about you and they're considering you as, as part of their family.

Caroline Beste (44m 32s):
And it just doesn't get any better than that.

Nancy Z. (44m 34s):
And, and what you, what you've created in that is that magnetic connection. And that's one of the things that I love that Carolyn has put in, in her method is that we work with five heartfelt strings of connection. And it's the first five rituals and the waterhole rituals, which is a bond, trust, respect, willingness and focus. But if you think about that, those five things, there's not one relationship that you could have with a human, with an animal, with a horse that would function minus one of those. So what she did was put together this like magical map that people can say, oh, which string is broken today? Cause you, like you said, you got off your horse, your horse is still connected to you.

Nancy Z. (45m 16s):
Right? So all five heartfelt strings are vibrating between you and your horse in the moment you have 'em all. But lots of trainers have that, they have magical, wonderful connection with their horse. They didn't do the water hole rituals necessarily, but they got there. The water rituals just gives people a way to figure it out. Yes. You know?

Caroline Beste (45m 36s):
Yeah. I gotcha there. I totally, cause that's, I've got similar but a different method. I work more with the energy in the first four chakras, which are part of the sensory processing. So Yeah. And that's, that's also how I do my rehabilitation and personal healing. Cuz I'm a survivor of panic anxiety attacks. So I know all about meditation as a teenager and getting back, you know, that's how I started to learn about meditation. But I didn't even, I didn't even know what a shocker was until one of my students apprenticed with me when I got back into this working with, you know, back into horses. It was, it was so wild. But I could feel where the horse and I would connect Sure.

Caroline Beste (46m 20s):
Energetically. But I didn't know, I didn't, I didn't take yoga, you know, I wasn't well versed or educated on, on chakra system or any, I didn't even know what the, I heard of it but I didn't even know what it was. But yeah, it's pretty cool. So when you say magnetic, I, I can feel that that's one of the things I I teach my students like especially riding is one, you've got to learn how to embody energy and rhythm and the movement, you know, on the ground. Develop this with your horse before you ride. Develop the movement, biomechanically, strengthen the horse before you ride the movement. It's only clear to the horse. Whereas all the trainers are out there, get on and trot, learn.

Nancy Z. (46m 59s):
That's right. Sit

Caroline Beste (47m 1s):
And trot while you damage your horses back. Cause

Nancy Z. (47m 3s):
Your horses and push through, push through the resistance. That's the, that, you know, magnetic connection is scientific. Right. It's, you know, birds and flight. Right. Stampeding or fish, you know, they don't bump into each other. It's entrainment. So when we have that, it's an energetic alignment that you get there. One way I get there another way, but the bottom line is then in training is what is happening.

Caroline Beste (47m 31s):
Yep.

Nancy Z. (47m 32s):
And I think

Caroline Beste (47m 33s):
On website. Yes.

Nancy Z. (47m 35s):
Yeah. I

Caroline Beste (47m 35s):
Think that that's exactly what that is.

Nancy Z. (47m 37s):
Yeah. What we do. It's so exciting to talk to somebody who gets I love it too. I can't wait to learn more about the way you do things.

Caroline Beste (47m 46s):
It's so cool. I gotta share with everybody how we met. This is just, I know cause it's, I beaming. It's so cool. About a month ago, right? In November, obviously right in Lydia. Yeah. Your old publicist. You haven't even worked with this person for like, you don't even know who this person is right now. For two years you said. Yeah. Reached out to me in like a blanket, you know, email. You saw it cuz it got I think forwarded back to you. But whatever Dan said, but, you know, would you be interested, I think my, my client Carolyn Resnick and Nancy Zins master would be perfect whatever guests for your podcast.

Caroline Beste (48m 26s):
And, and I wrote back something like, you know, thank you very much. Yeah. I love, love their work. I'm very familiar with it. But don't you think that this is gonna be is, oh, what did I say? Don't you think this,

Nancy Z. (48m 39s):
That I don't like you don't, and you don't usually bring in other trainers or something. Like you're, you're,

Caroline Beste (48m 44s):
I don't bring in trainers ever because it's a conflict. It's a conflict of interest. I say this is a, we basically the same thing. Just differently. Yeah. Yeah. I said, and then I said he came back and he is like, well, kind of smart ass. Like funny you should say that. You know, most people would think that. And then I came back ever so politely, but I was like, but you know, we we're competitors. You know, if you wanna do a collaboration, I would love to. And that's when he, he didn't say anything. He just threw it onto you.

Nancy Z. (49m 18s):
Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, I'm in. That's cool.

Caroline Beste (49m 25s):
Cause I thought I was still talking to Dan and I'm like, if, you know, I never thought this would happen. I thought you guys knew this was happening and you just Yeah. Were looking for a spot, you know, to to, to, you know, you no promote your work. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not into that. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So I was like, oh, collaboration. I'm thinking I'll never hear back from 'em and you've to me. So Yeah. Cause it's

Nancy Z. (49m 50s):
Cool and you know, I think that if more people, trainers, you know, you know, I don't even work together trainer. But I mean I look at it more like I'm a relationship coach between horses and humans. Right. If more of us could work together on this, you know, I think that, and I think that people are starting to come together and collaborate more. I've noticed a lot of other trainers doing it. I'm so happy about that because there is the one common denominator that I think most people in the horse business want. And that's what's best for the horse. No matter whether we agree with their style or not, they all want the same thing. Right. That's

Caroline Beste (50m 29s):
True.

Nancy Z. (50m 30s):
Very time. That it's a collective community of, of trainers coming together to support each

Caroline Beste (50m 36s):
Other. And with and with that we raise the collective consciousness of everyone as a whole. That's right. I mean there is a real energetic frequency that we do omit input out there. That's right. Yeah. That is beautiful.

Nancy Z. (50m 51s):
And there's plenty for everyone. There's millions of people out there. So

Caroline Beste (50m 55s):
Yeah. You just gotta find your fit. You gotta find your fit and what works for you. Absolutely. Okay, so I'm gonna move on to, I love this cause I'm right there with you when you say to only ask yes questions and don't do anything with your horse until you have a yes. Oh, I wanna, before you tell me about this, I wanna say something cuz this, this isn't about you, but this is about working together. All of us, let's say all of us professionals, you know, can come to this common place of collaborating and, and, and not feeling threatened. Yes.

Caroline Beste (51m 35s):
But the problem, and you and I talked about this a little better, at least I talked about it and I say this, I voice this often in my podcast. Let's do it. But let's not steal from each other. Yes. You know what I mean? Absolutely. Like, that's the thing that bothers me is that is people get, the ego gets in the way and it gets competitive and competition's fine. I'm very competitive. I'm very driven, ambitious and competitive. But I, but I want my my own. I wanna discover it myself. I wanna learn from you. I wanna learn from everyone. I wanna continue learning. But make it your own. Don't outright steal.

Nancy Z. (52m 11s):
Yeah.

Caroline Beste (52m 12s):
And as soon as it

Nancy Z. (52m 13s):
Just happens

Caroline Beste (52m 13s):
A lot. Well, and as soon as I saw this question, the yes answer, I've heard it somewhere else. And I know that it came from you that you guys started this. Yes. And I'm not gonna say anything else. I

Nancy Z. (52m 26s):
Know.

Caroline Beste (52m 28s):
And that upsets me at least. At least say, Hey, I learned this from so and so. Yes. You know what I mean? And give that credit to that person.

Nancy Z. (52m 37s):
Absolutely. You know, Carolyn's work has

Caroline Beste (52m 41s):
Touched, been around the long time you guys,

Nancy Z. (52m 43s):
Right? 40 years. 40 years. She, she coined the term liberty training. She doesn't even like me to say it anymore, but it's the fact it's registered to us. But the thing is, is that so many people have learned from her and so many people have been inspired by her work. And she always encourages people to use the work but make it your own. You know what I mean? Don't use my work and call it your own, but make it your own. Use it because gosh, it's giving horses a better deal. Yeah. And the thing about the yes questions for us is we call it the entry point of connection. So that hopefully is ours.

Caroline Beste (53m 20s):
Yes. Right.

Nancy Z. (53m 21s):
Entry point of connection. It's how do we approach the horse to find that entry point of connection? We're always gonna get a yes. And when I teach that in clinics and such people go, gosh, if I waited to get a yes from my horse, I'd never get to get on him or do anything. But it's so simple because it's really just about working with whatever you're asking the horse to do, let's say in the waterhole rituals. Right.

Caroline Beste (53m 50s):
And it's consensual. It's what I call consensual.

Nancy Z. (53m 53s):
Exactly. Exactly. Different word but exact same thing. Just if this horse isn't interested in that, I'm not going to push through that resistance. I'm gonna go back to what works. I'm always gonna get a yes always. And this,

Caroline Beste (54m 7s):
That's the point that you have to make is you always get a yes. Like if you do it right, yes. And you build on it, there will always be a yes to you guys. There won't be this, well today my horse didn't want to if they didn't today. Go back to the building blocks. What isn't working? What needs to be strengthened? Yes. What do you need different? Cause eventually it's always gonna be a yes. Absolutely.

Nancy Z. (54m 30s):
Yeah. And that's what I love about these five heartfelt strings. Because when you do not have the connection, let's say you ask the horse and he says, no, it doesn't bother me. I go, okay, which string of connection is broken? So I wanna say this too, about this method. This isn't a training method, this is foundation work. So you take your business to a whole different level. You've got the foundation and you go into the writing, which I can't wait to ask you some questions about. But you know, for us, we say, don't stop doing anything you're doing with other trainers. If you're working for Caroline, with Caroline Best, keep doing it. Because when you do the water rituals, you're gonna see a huge shift in everything you do with your horse.

Nancy Z. (55m 13s):
And we want people to see the difference before and after.

Caroline Beste (55m 16s):
So this is

Nancy Z. (55m 17s):
Foundation work. So we're asking you to get a magnetic connection with your horse before you ever put on tech, go for a ride, bring in a farrier or a vet. Yes. Get your magnetic connection. And that is just companion walking. I go out and every day I go out, I say, Hey, you wanna go for a walk? If my horse is with me in that moment, I am ally connected. That moment, it could change from moment to moment. But if I'm not and he doesn't wanna come with me, I have these steps, these five steps, they're exercises that I can do to bring it full circle. And within five or 15 minutes or however the horse is connected, again, that's how we get our yes.

Nancy Z. (55m 57s):
And then we go, okay, we're ready to go for a ride or to do whatever other ground worker training that we might wanna do to advance the horse.

Caroline Beste (56m 6s):
A conversation.

Nancy Z. (56m 7s):
It's a conversation. And now when I think about it, I don't know how I would ever not get a yes because the horse goes, oh that. Oh that. Okay. Oh yeah, I get it. You know what I mean? So it's, and it's easy to determine when he doesn't, cuz he's just gonna walk away. He's gonna be like, I'm out. You know? And, and we get into trainers mind. We talk about trainers mind all the time because that's what happens. And it happens to me, it happens to Carolyn. It, the difference is that we know when it happens immediately to stop like, gosh, that went so well. I'm gonna do it again. You know, so we're not drilling the horse, but like let, and then I'm like, no, no, gotta know when to pause, right?

Nancy Z. (56m 52s):
Gotta know when to lead, when to follow, when to pause. So that pause allows that horse then to be able to think it through. And usually they say yes. So

Caroline Beste (57m 3s):
Yeah, I can't, I can't can't, it's not the right word. I don't know of any Student experience with me and Lydia, you can attest to this and Becky's in the chat on YouTube that you've been with me in person and you've seen many a moment where I'm like, ah, we need a conversation. Hold on. You know, I'm gonna stop my clinic. I'm gonna stop my in-person training because something's missing between me and my horse right now. Or I'll stop you because something's missing and if we don't stop, you're never gonna catch it and it's gonna escalate. This is how people get hurt it, you know, whatever that that catch is, that there's a misunderstanding or you need to wait for your horse to, to want to join you or your horses hit a threshold and you're not paying attention.

Caroline Beste (57m 55s):
You know that you need to, the pause is, I use that word often. I always

Nancy Z. (57m 59s):
Sure reinforce

Caroline Beste (58m 1s):
Slow. Go slow, slow. 10 times slower than you think.

Nancy Z. (58m 5s):
Yes, slow. That's the key. The other thing is I think that the, the learning curve as a student, it's not that I, I'm some great horse whisperer, okay? I'm not, I know this method. You're the

Caroline Beste (58m 19s):
Horse listener. I'm

Nancy Z. (58m 20s):
A horse listener, but I also know the method. So I know how to bring the connection back and to keep bringing it back. So that can look pretty amazing once you know how, but as the student, you know, we're thinking and we're not sure exactly what to do or the timing is off a little bit. But in that pause is where then the horse I think will really give you whatever it was you were asking for anyway. Right. Instead of keep pushing through it to figure it out. So I love that you that you have that same way. Good

Caroline Beste (58m 51s):
Point. As long as you don't push. But yeah, the horse is gonna hold that space for you. You know, the horses, I mean this stuff gets so deep, you guys we're just touching the surface of it, you know, the foundation of it. Because the more you do our work, whether it's, you know, Nancy and Carolyn's or my work or combination, the more you do it, it never ends. The possibility and the opportunities for just amazing things. You know, to think that you, you can have this thousand plus pound, magnificent, beautiful, wild free, powerful majestic bean.

Caroline Beste (59m 31s):
I don't think that the horse as an animal, it's a bean, a sentient bean like us to be on the same wavelength with them just is mind blowing. Like, I, like you say, you could pinch yourself where you live. I could pinch myself with my, the lifestyle that I've created with my horses, you know? Yeah. Like you're to have them in our backyard, right? It's like, oh my God, I just had a conversation with five of you and you're all like right here with me. And it's like, okay, wait a minute. I can only hear one at a time. You

Nancy Z. (1h 0m 3s):
Know? That's the other

Caroline Beste (1h 0m 4s):
Thing too, talk to,

Nancy Z. (1h 0m 7s):
It's so true to you and it's such nuance work what we do. Like you can take your students, I'm sure, get 'em, but you know, there's a nuance to it, which comes from the per the self. The self, right? So we try to not teach people to be just like us, like use your intuition because every horse and every human is different. So there's gonna be a million scenarios out there that we can't tell you, you know how to handle. But if you have some guidelines like what you share with your students and I share with my students, then they can say, and sometimes if I don't know what to do or I have a horse that's really got some issues, I just go sit.

Nancy Z. (1h 0m 46s):
Like I don't need to do something all the time. You know? Yes. So in that sharing of space, a lot's happening, you know, a lot is happening. Right. Just developing that cross species bond. So there's the other thing about us teaching you to do, do, do

Caroline Beste (1h 1m 6s):
You know, I know or or to get results, but you are getting results. They're just in a different way. You're getting results that aren't your results. It's the horse's results. It's like I, yeah, it's really switching that paradigm for, for humans to think differently about the relationship. Well they want

Nancy Z. (1h 1m 25s):
It right away. They just want it so fast. They, they think, which what really is mind blowing? And I'm sure I thought the same thing before. You go out and you practice and you expect something to happen and you expect it to happen now. But this could be weeks. You know? And I had a student the other day say in class the long way, and she's one of our teachers, student teachers, she said, the long way is the short way. And I love that because it might seem like it's taking you a while at Liberty cuz you're not going, you have to do this with that and the other with tack. But once you get to the other side of that, then everything speeds up, right? Yes. And that is something for people to really keep in mind because Liberty's the answer to give our horses the best life they can have.

Caroline Beste (1h 2m 10s):
Yep. I agree. Oh my gosh. It's, that's similar to one of my core principles in consensual partnership. It's not go slow and stay longer. That's one of 'em. Oh God, Lydia help me. But it's where it's, it's, it's like what you just said, it's, it's, it's

Nancy Z. (1h 2m 28s):
The long way is the short way.

Caroline Beste (1h 2m 31s):
I can't think my brains a minute. I should know. Right.

Nancy Z. (1h 2m 36s):
I so crazy all the time. More and more lately

Caroline Beste (1h 2m 40s):
We're so success. I love it. Right. Hold on, going on your questions. Oh, okay. So yeah, I mean we're already covering so much of what I to ask. I knew that. Yeah. Well so did I. That's the organic, like I wanna stimulate and get it going. But when you, when you can like we've got good chemistry, you and me. So less we can get more do less and you'll get more less get more is what I see. That's great.

Nancy Z. (1h 3m 10s):
I like that. Do less and you get more. I love it.

Caroline Beste (1h 3m 13s):
It's been around and other variations do less and get more. When I talk about the principle, it's a lot about what you're talking about. We're spend more time doing nothing and you'll understand how much more you're gonna, you're gonna be able to get or get

Nancy Z. (1h 3m 28s):
To. Absolutely.

Caroline Beste (1h 3m 30s):
Yeah. It's, this stuff is deep you guys. So yeah. You touched on finding your authentic self and personal empowerment with liberty training. Anything you wanna add to that?

Nancy Z. (1h 3m 44s):
Not really. I mean I just, I think that there's no way around it. I'm always kinda surprised that, you know, at one point before I met Carolyn, I really wanted to go into equine therapy. And what I found out now is that what I do, it's all the same. I don't take some course to walk people through it. But when you come out and you're doing the waterhole rituals, usually whatever, one of those exercises, bond, trust, respect, willingness, or focus is going on that the person has a difficulty with, it's directly related to what's going on for them in life. And it's mind blowing to see like I don't advertise that somebody's gonna have some major transformation in a clinic, but they normally do at some point have a self realization, like an aha moment that's so big that it transforms their whole life.

Nancy Z. (1h 4m 34s):
And I don't think that you can go out and be real and or lack of authenticity and get anywhere with the horse because, you know, I've gone out even today with my horses, not today, but I mean, you know, since I've been in this business and said, okay, I need to get a video on this, that and the other. You know, I know all about trainers mine, I teach you not to have it. But I'm like, okay. And then all of a sudden I just laugh. I catch myself and I'm like, I can't do this this way. It's just not gonna happen. I have to go back to, let's just see where we're at today and then I'm gonna go into, okay, now I've got my video cuz I have my connection. So I just think there's no way around it.

Nancy Z. (1h 5m 15s):
The horse is just not gonna be with you if you're not in the right place mentally and you're not completely present to the environment.

Caroline Beste (1h 5m 24s):
Well and to add to that, beautiful to add to that, and thank you you said that so well. You, I, you know, being authentic doesn't mean you've got your shit together. People,

Nancy Z. (1h 5m 36s):
It means

Caroline Beste (1h 5m 36s):
You're, it means you're honest. So a lot of my students are like, but I'm, I feel horrible. I'm a wreck. You know, this is going on in my life and, and, and I've been told to avoid my horse that my horse is a mirror. And I'm like, that's true. Don't avoid them is not, that's not true. Do not avoid them. I don't say that you, your horse is a mirror, but allow, create, through my work we talk about sacred space and and safe space and it's the energy that we put into it and the, and create that space for you to be vulnerable, to have that connection and conversation with your horse and allow your horse to hold the space for you. You know, be real.

Caroline Beste (1h 6m 18s):
That's all I I ask of my students is be real. And that's really hard for a lot of people to own or get in touch with how they feel. They're always taught. We all are to push through it, ignore it. Yes. Don't, don't, you know, be strong means you just push through it and ignore it, you know, and you move on.

Nancy Z. (1h 6m 36s):
Absolutely. Stuff it. Yes.

Caroline Beste (1h 6m 38s):
That's not the definition of courage. You know, be be authentic and, and your horse will understand that you're, you still wanna do something with them, whatever it is. But you're in this space right now. Absolutely. And that's all they care about. They can trust that there's a congruency there when you're not congruent when you're trying to do something, but you're feeling a different way. It freaks them out. That's the them

Nancy Z. (1h 7m 2s):
I was searching for the congruency. When you're incongruent, that's the part where the horse is just like, okay, I'm out. It's

Caroline Beste (1h 7m 10s):
Too con. It's that and let him know. Believe me, they'll, they can hug you. They might even offer the best support you could imagine. Yeah. Lydia, do you wanna try to get a word in edgewise Lydia even trying.

Lydia P. (1h 7m 29s):
No, absolutely not. I just, and you guys and it's like,

Caroline Beste (1h 7m 40s):
Now you got two of me.

Lydia P. (1h 7m 43s):
This is the really cool thing. Hey Lydia, we all experienced something very young that we looked for and tried to describe and you guys stuck with it long enough to build a method on it. I learned it with falconry and my master from my master in falconry cuz you have to be an apprentice. And so it is very methodical, but it's also very intuitive. You know, you, you don't

Caroline Beste (1h 8m 11s):
Organic,

Lydia P. (1h 8m 12s):
You don't just let a go and expect for to to fly back to you. That's not how that works. So it, it's very similar but it's also very different because they're four-legged and bird of prey has wings. You know, it's their, that's the, it's the still the environment. Well you have, yeah, it's, well,

Caroline Beste (1h 8m 32s):
Two different mindsets. You've got, you're working with a predator and we're working with a prey and it is different. It is linear versus non-linear. It is different. It is cool, but it's similar. But it's like dogs, horses, it's similar but it's different. But you're

Nancy Z. (1h 8m 47s):
Still building a cross species bond. You're still, you know, you're, and that's the deepest bond there is. It's, it's way stronger than a same species bond. So I find that amazing

Lydia P. (1h 9m 1s):
When you have a ver of prey that is a merlin a a redtail or anything bigger is she is prey to that. So when I have a relationship with the ver of prey that is flying and she senses danger cuz there's a red tail hawk over there. She comes and looks for me pretty quick and she's even dove into the stage brush and called at me like said, come get me cuz I'm scared.

Nancy Z. (1h 9m 28s):
I love that. That's so I have to hear more about what you do someday. Wow.

Lydia P. (1h 9m 33s):
But it, yeah, it's, it's incredible. But these, these cross relationships and the training part is, is there's more to it than just training. It is,

Nancy Z. (1h 9m 42s):
Absolutely. It's a training. It's really not training.

Lydia P. (1h 9m 46s):
It's not,

Nancy Z. (1h 9m 47s):
It's an evolution of

Caroline Beste (1h 9m 48s):
Development. I call it development. It's development. And I hate to word training because it makes it so the minute we say that our brain hooks on to mechanics and technique and performance. And it's not it I, I'm trying to change that language because I'm a trainer, but I'm training you while you develop yourself and your horse,

Nancy Z. (1h 10m 9s):
You develop That's right. All the Carolyn started getting away from liberty training, even though that was her term because of that. Yeah. Call it liberty horsemanship now, because this is all about horsemanship. This takes your horsemanship to a whole nother level. We might be focusing here on liberty, but everything in it is serious horsemanship. And if you can do it at liberty, when you put the tack on, you have seen how much your growth in horsemanship has expanded. That's for sure. Yeah. You know? Yes,

Caroline Beste (1h 10m 41s):
Yes, yes, yes. The feel and timing, especially the feel how liberty develops. Like when I take it into my method and through the, the different, what do you wanna call it? Like the different arts. There's the art of lunging and there's several styles of my lunging to further develop the, well the biomechanics and being able to ride the movement, develop the movement, and then into the riding. You, you, you can't lose that connection. And, and, and that teaches you that intuition, that feel and timing, that feel that somatic experience to the body so that the body and the the two can become one.

Caroline Beste (1h 11m 21s):
You know, that centar, I'm always talking about the

Nancy Z. (1h 11m 24s):
Center connection. Yeah.

Caroline Beste (1h 11m 27s):
But you've gotta develop that feel and timing. And I've had some great questions over the years with my students and some, I'm not an argument, but even some of my students who, you know, you can't teach feel and timing and I'm like, then why are you in my program? I'm like, everyone has their own feel in timing. I can give you a path, a roadmap like you do Nancy in your work to follow, but it's still flexible and teaching you how to, how to be organic, how to allow trust the process and allow for the, the organic way.

Nancy Z. (1h 12m 2s):
Absolutely. And there's an art to that. There's an yes there, there's an art to feel. And you know, Carolyn always said, you know, you really can't teach feel a long time ago she always said that her father told her, you can't teach feel. But then we realized, she and I were talking a couple years ago and I'm like, but we are teaching feel, we're giving people the guidelines to be able to take it into their own intuitive path, how to feel. But to stay in soft feel, you have to be able to figure that out and balance that within yourself. And that's when you notice that horse go into a little bit of resistance, you know, soft feel, what's the definition? Well there's probably a million, but it's basically about

Caroline Beste (1h 12m 43s):
Horse you,

Nancy Z. (1h 12m 45s):
But the horse not pushing you and you not pushing the horse. And in that is that soft feel because so many people's horses are pushing them around and they say, it's okay cuz I don't wanna push my horse. No, no. There's a code of conduct of the herd. You need to set boundaries and then yes, your horse will accept you as a leader. And then there's an opportunity for soft feel. Right.

Caroline Beste (1h 13m 10s):
Beautiful. And the opposite, which I see too much of, I see the opposite is they're pushing their horses around and micromanaging them and pulling them. Yes. And even when they think they're in a bitless bridal, cuz you can't ride with a bit with me and I prefer a bareback pad that I recommend, but you gotta get to the level of riding like that. Sure. With your horse,

Nancy Z. (1h 13m 31s):
It's safe,

Caroline Beste (1h 13m 32s):
But they're still yank in their horses around or there, the, the level of excessive force is just like hardwired into us. So, you know, the one thing with, with with the online work that I do teach, cuz you started liberty and then you, you've gotta find and maintain that feel in the line. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's gonna teach you how to ride with either bridals, you know, or ride with minimal aids. Sure.

Nancy Z. (1h 14m 5s):
You know,

Caroline Beste (1h 14m 6s):
Not so much of this. So yeah, there's, I'm all about feeling timing and that is, you can, you'll find your own and mine will be different. Like you just said earlier. Each one of us will bring our own feel, our unique feel and timing into, you know, the engagement or connection we have with any horse. It's gonna be different.

Nancy Z. (1h 14m 27s):
I, I believe that all great horsemen are in soft feel period. Like however they got there. Whether they have their own far away your way, it's subtle. It's, but they found that place, right?

Caroline Beste (1h 14m 40s):
Yep. Absolutely. No, yeah. It's teaching everybody else to, to aspire to that and to recognize that resistance and force is the opposite of softness and giving and being willing and, and I call it, I call it in my work, you know, seeking the path of least resistance. And it's part of my Dallas training, so to speak, my doist, you know, the path of least resistance. You know, horses can come to me challenge, they can come with trauma and they're challenged. And it doesn't mean, and this is for my students that have a lot of trauma. Right. It doesn't mean that you're not gonna hit resistance.

Caroline Beste (1h 15m 20s):
It doesn't mean you're not gonna, you know, find resistance of course in that development that you're, you're, but you've gotta recognize when it's there and then make that choice that, you know, and, and it, and it is an art. It takes a lot of experience and, and, and talent, honestly, not everybody can be a specialist. It takes feeling, timing and intuition and so many things to a whole nother level. I agree. Of knowing when to hold, when to back off and when to push a little bit. Yes. Without,

Nancy Z. (1h 15m 54s):
Absolutely. That was perfectly dead. That's the nuance of it right there. Yeah.

Caroline Beste (1h 16m 2s):
I don't wanna scare people because you and I know, you know, and anyone that's been following us that most of our horses are damaged and they all come with different thresholds, you know, damage. But we need to be as ambassadors of the horse and advocates of the horse. You know, we've gotta come in with that mindset cuz it's easy for us to get triggered. It's easy

Nancy Z. (1h 16m 24s):
As human,

Caroline Beste (1h 16m 26s):
We're hardwired, you know, to tighten up and go after. So we gotta kind of understand our instincts too. But then our own trauma, you know, and, and, and s brings up

Nancy Z. (1h 16m 37s):
A lot. Yeah.

Caroline Beste (1h 16m 39s):
It's, it's crazy. I know I've been through it myself. I speak from experience, but, wow. Okay. Thank you. Let me get onto the next one. So what is the most worthwhile thing that you have put your time into something that you've done that changed the course of your life?

Nancy Z. (1h 17m 5s):
Well, obviously what I'm doing now, like, I can't, that, that's so obvious. That completely took me on. And you know, it's funny because my husband is a sailor. He's always had this passion for sailing and you know, we've had sailboats and he's sailed to Costa Rica from the states. I mean, but he was always, his purpose was just to travel and meet people. But I never really had that, like I've had a lot of fun things I wanted to do. Like I opened a lot of different businesses in my life and I've had that. But this is the first thing that I've ever done that I feel has so much purpose for humans. So for that, but the other thing is just being able to make that move.

Nancy Z. (1h 17m 49s):
I think, I don't, I don't give myself enough, like not credit's not the word, but it's, I don't see like how great of a thing that we did by pioneering our way here and completely changing our lifestyle and rescuing these horses. And obviously this path isn't something that just happened along the way. It was my, I'm sure my journey, you know, I your journey. Yeah. I dunno how to say it exactly, but it is the greatest thing that I've ever done. And just building this retreat center here, you know, it's not easy to do that here in Costa Rica. It has been the most difficult thing I've ever had to do was to do construction in Costa Rica and build this.

Nancy Z. (1h 18m 34s):
But to be able to have people come here and be part of this beautiful rainforest being on the land, immerse themselves in the cultural horses, learn the liberty. For me, it's the most worthwhile thing I've ever done. Because what I get out of my work every day, just being with my horses is also transformational for me. So yes, I, I just, you know, I would say it's all in that bundle, but it's all about the

Caroline Beste (1h 18m 60s):
Oh yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Following your bliss.

Nancy Z. (1h 19m 3s):
Yeah, following my bliss. And it's not easy all the time right there. Life

Caroline Beste (1h 19m 11s):
Can get in the way, we can get in the way of ourselves. I mean

Nancy Z. (1h 19m 15s):
This is hard work. It's hard work. It's very hard work. Yes. And you have to be determined to really want it. It has to be passion, you know, because otherwise what would the drive be like? The passion for what we do keeps us going. You know, even when we're tired or sick or going through life's challenges, you know, for me it's like I go back to I love what I do. I have to a lot of times really because now my work is my passion. So a lot of times I have to say, okay, let's play with the horses. And this is work is separate, right?

Caroline Beste (1h 19m 49s):
Yes, yes. I understand.

Nancy Z. (1h 19m 51s):
I love writing program and doing all that. So

Caroline Beste (1h 19m 55s):
No, there's that balance. It's finding that balance. But sometimes it's like, you know, for the last few years, I said in the beginning or maybe before we started recording, I don't remember now, but you know, I think in the beginning of, of this podcast, I've spent the last few years building my online courses and my presence and my content. And I used to film every week until this year of 2022. And what a, oh my gosh, I am so glad I, I've been able to step away from that. I'm still spending most of my time though in front of the computer. But I am going to be announcing, well I'm announcing right now, but in, in January I'm gonna open my doors back to clinics and traveling and, you know, wonderful

Nancy Z. (1h 20m 38s):
Close

Caroline Beste (1h 20m 39s):
For years. Cause I needed to, I was burned out from that. You get burned out. Well,

Nancy Z. (1h 20m 44s):
You know, and all of that to the pandemic. Yes. Like that's, that was in there. So you have to admit, I mean it's stunted to traveling for me too. That is online learning though, didn't it? It did brought into our classes online and it gave more people, it was so much good. Came from it too. So, but yeah, I think that's exciting that you're gonna do that. And it's hard, you know, when, the other thing about this work, and this I'll just say real quick between you and me is that I feel when I'm the only one, Carolyn and I that can put the information out, you know, because we're the experts in this particular thing that we're doing, you are in your thing. It's not like you can get an assistant and just say, Hey, could you write this program?

Nancy Z. (1h 21m 27s):
You know Sure. They could edit it, but it puts you in front of your computer a lot to share with the world.

Caroline Beste (1h 21m 33s):
So Yeah. When you're building Yes. When you're building the business the way we are with the online content, anyone in, in our industry, it's, it's tough. Yeah. I mean that's why I, you know, I've got my, my A team, I call it. That was one of the things I thought about a couple of years ago when I got launched my mastery membership program because it's really for committed students that wanna learn this way. It's not just a 12 week course. I mean, it's, this is a lifetime. Sure. It was my

Nancy Z. (1h 22m 2s):
Lifetime.

Caroline Beste (1h 22m 3s):
Yeah. So it's, it's a lifestyle change completely. But from there, I I, I was designing in my head, you know, I'm gonna watch these students and, and hopefully be able to pick, select a handful of them or more that, that can help me when the time is right. And I've been blessed this year. Lydia is one of them, you know, with that hand, those handful of students who, hey, I wanna help out, you know, the, the best I can and, and I believe in you. And, and it really, it's, it's, I can't thank them enough. Yeah. You know, it's, it's been, I couldn't and wouldn't wanna do this alone.

Caroline Beste (1h 22m 42s):
And I want, you know, I've hired people before to help me as assistants and if their heart's not in the work, it doesn't work out.

Nancy Z. (1h 22m 51s):
I agree with that. We did that too. We have a handful. We're very picky of certified instructors that are coming along that are graduating now. One just graduated. But, you know, it's a relief to me because then I can send them out and people can get more education because everybody can't, and I can't travel every day of my life. So

Caroline Beste (1h 23m 9s):
I, I gotta get this certified. I, I, I had, I had certified students many, many years ago when I used to have this program on base. Like you could only do it if you came and spend a minimum of three months with me one on one. A minimum. Yeah. That's why now I made it online and even more, but it, it, it, I wasn't getting the, you and I talked about this Nancy and Lydia knows I wasn't getting the right caliber. I was getting too young, you know, too young. Beautiful. But just too young, too immature. Yeah. Honestly. Like they don't know what they wanna do with their life. Sure. Or their parents were throwing the money and throwing them at me to be their, their their mother, all that.

Caroline Beste (1h 23m 54s):
I'm like, no, no, no. I need someone older who, who is more, is like, Hey, I want, like you do, like I'm sure you have with your certified students. Oh yeah. They wanna make, they know they wanna make this a career. It's

Nancy Z. (1h 24m 6s):
A career for them. And they are older, more in our target market. So

Caroline Beste (1h 24m 11s):
Yeah. So I'm looking forward to

Lydia P. (1h 24m 12s):
Talking about people again. You know, we're talking about people again.

Nancy Z. (1h 24m 18s):
That's exactly right. That's what we do.

Caroline Beste (1h 24m 21s):
Yes. Yeah. Well that's what it's all about. I had

Lydia P. (1h 24m 24s):
A career of gardening. It was impossible. Like Yeah. You would think, you know, you're raised with a grandmother who showed you how to use a shovel. Well, they're not anymore. Kids are not raised with a ra or a shovel with their hand.

Caroline Beste (1h 24m 38s):
Mine mine. But

Nancy Z. (1h 24m 45s):
Yeah. Well,

Caroline Beste (1h 24m 47s):
Hold on. Yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna switch gears here. Yeah. And, and well, yeah, we're good. Yeah. But I'm getting burnt out and I'm tired and I really, we don't need to dive into me. I, I this also, we've been able to just kind of weave our stuff together, I think beautifully.

Nancy Z. (1h 25m 5s):
Absolutely. Absolutely. I didn't, yeah, I'm, I'm happy. I think that we've been able to share a lot about ourselves with our audience and get liberty training out there to those who dunno what

Caroline Beste (1h 25m 17s):
It's Yes. Yes. That's the neat goal

Nancy Z. (1h 25m 19s):
Was Liberty. Yeah. I just, I I think in most of these questions that I had for you, you kind of answered them anyway.

Caroline Beste (1h 25m 29s):
Yeah, I think so too. I think so too. And everybody knows where to find me and they'll, and they know now where if they don't know of you, they know now where to find you. Carolyn resnik.com. Yes. And y'all know who I am. So Yeah. This has been time

Lydia P. (1h 25m 44s):
Of year to go to Florida and Costa Rica people

Caroline Beste (1h 25m 47s):
Yeah, that's

Nancy Z. (1h 25m 48s):
Right. I know guys,

Caroline Beste (1h 25m 50s):
You come to both of our places and study with us independently. We're not together. Not yet. We never, I I,

Nancy Z. (1h 25m 59s):
I have one, I have one spot available that in January if somebody wants to come for a retreat, they can just contact me on carolyn re.com at contact us. Awesome. Yeah. So it's a semi-private retreat and this girl said, I wanna come, but I need another person. So I'm just gonna start putting it out there. So maybe you can come Caroline,

Caroline Beste (1h 26m 25s):
I'd love to come to Costa Rica.

Nancy Z. (1h 26m 29s):
I'm gonna manifest it.

Caroline Beste (1h 26m 31s):
Yeah, yeah. Likewise. This isn't the end when Lydia, Lydia needs to get outta Idaho. There

Nancy Z. (1h 26m 36s):
We go.

Caroline Beste (1h 26m 39s):
There. My best friend

Nancy Z. (1h 26m 42s):
Costa and I haven't even been there to see them yet, so. Well no,

Caroline Beste (1h 26m 46s):
Well then you go

Nancy Z. (1h 26m 49s):
Right.

Caroline Beste (1h 26m 50s):
Well thank you. It's been a pleasure,

Nancy Z. (1h 26m 52s):
Caroline, this been such a blessing to get to know you better and to be able to share what we do have this commonality. I love it. It's great.

Caroline Beste (1h 27m 0s):
I do too. And I look forward to many blessings over the holiday to you, all of you. I always say God bless and may always be one with your who, you know where to find Nancy and you know where to find me. And next week we have a podcast real quick with Chris Newkirk, Lydia, right Next Wednesday. I

Nancy Z. (1h 27m 25s):
Think so. I think so.

Caroline Beste (1h 27m 27s):
And I totally forget what the title is, Chris, you guys did before the season of, she's an amazing psychotherapist that gets into like off the chain holistic healing modalities.

Nancy Z. (1h 27m 42s):
Well, I have to get on that. Which

Caroline Beste (1h 27m 44s):
I, it's, she's been like years, what it's

Nancy Z. (1h 27m 50s):
Called. Working with the Higher Self.

Caroline Beste (1h 27m 52s):
Yeah. Working with their higher self. So levels of higher consciousness and healing and yeah, her podcast, we did a podcast real quick with her this summer, if I remember correctly. But it's been one of our, our most popular podcasts has had a lot of

Nancy Z. (1h 28m 8s):
Download. I'll have to come back and listen to it. Yeah,

Caroline Beste (1h 28m 10s):
She's amazing. She's, she's amazing. So I'm, I'm looking forward to that. And then, then that's it until next year. So thank you. Right. Thank you. God

Nancy Z. (1h 28m 21s):
Bless so much.

Caroline Beste (1h 28m 25s):
Bye guys.