Teaching Patience & Tying Horses: Does tying really teach patience?

I hope you can join me and Lydia, my co-host, for a controversial podcast about teaching horses patience and tying.

I agree that horses need to learn patience, but I don’t agree with teaching them to learn it by tying. I also agree that horses need to learn how to be tied, but I don’t teach them by tying them.

If you’ve got a horse that hates to be tied, is scared of cross ties or pulls back from being tied, this podcast is for you! 

Hope you can join us as I share my secrets to teaching horses patience and how to stand quietly and happily in cross ties.

See you Wednesday, October 26, 12pmEST/USA for my LIVE Q&A podcast about patience and tying horses!

“You have to grow from the inside out. None can teach you, none can make you spiritual. There is no other teacher but your own soul.” - Swami Vivekananda

May you always be one with your horse,
  Caroline

Transcript

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Caroline Beste (1m 4s):
You are listening. To, Everything, Horses & More! Podcast with me, your host, Caroline Beste. I am the founder of my Tao of Horsemanship Method. A pioneer in horse training and development, and a true advocate of the horse. I bring an intuitive and educated eye along with an experienced and intelligent perspective to understanding both Horse and human nature and behavior. My experience and skill sets are the cornerstone to my worldwide success in training methodology. My experience with Horses as intelligent senianat beings is what inspired me to create my highly acclaimed and proven training method. Consensual partnership training for Horses and humans.

Caroline Beste (1m 44s):
A model I pioneered in 2008. Consensual partnership training provides a comprehensive and impressive curriculum, Teaching horse owners how to fully develop their horses using a holistic, empathetic, and natural process. My training system teaches you how to achieve true partnership with Horses and without the use of pain, excessive pressure, dominance, force or coercion In. Addition to being a world class trainer for both Horses and people. I'm an artist, Author entrepreneur, speaker radio show host, licensed working equitation trainer and writing foundation specialist I offer one of the largest and most comprehensive online educational platforms, The Dal Horsemanship, where I host a variety of courses produced and personally taught by me and my amazing school masters In.

Caroline Beste (2m 36s):
Addition to sharing what I know in my in person training and online courses, I invite special guests and students each month to my radio show, Everything Horses & More! Podcast. This platform allows us to engage with all of you and share our very personal and transformational journey with horses. I invite you to listen in and hope you find something that helps inspire you to reach your personal goals and aspirations with your Horse. Thank you. And may you always be one with horses.

Caroline Beste (3m 26s):
Well, welcome everybody. If, you don't know who I am. I'm Caroline Beset, your host and this beautiful, lovely young woman. Next to me is Lydia Primavera, my co hosts. So welcome back to Everything Horses & More! Podcasts. Where we are educating, liberating and inspiring horse owners around, the world. And today's topic is a very controversial topic as far as I'm concerned because I find it very controversial and, and definitely throughout the years. It's a topic that has come up with many, many, many of my students worldwide.

Caroline Beste (4m 7s):
And the topic today is Teaching Patience and Tying Horses. And my question is, is it necessary? So it's all about Tying Horses to teach and PA patients. Basically that's what we're gonna be talking about today. So recently in my newsfeed, I've been getting a lot posts, a lot of posts from other professional trainers about this particular subject. Every, you know, the most popular would be most popular trainer and opinion would be Clint Anderson's, but I'm not gonna name the others, but I definitely copied and pasted the posts so that we can talk about it.

Caroline Beste (4m 60s):
But again, I'm not gonna name the other people cuz this not necessary. Why I decided to copy and paste what they were writing about is because this is what, this is a topic that comes up all the time throughout the year, year after year. Whether you're a new student of the Horse or a, you know, a forever student of the Horse and you have Horses. There are so many conflicting opinions about Tying Horses and teaching patients. But I also believe, in my experience working with thousands of Horses and students, what I've heard is there is one particular opinion, you know, even though there's a lot of conflict in conflicting opinions, and I'm certainly going to add to that today, there is usually one universal theme and Horses have to learn how to tie.

Caroline Beste (5m 53s):
I agree with that. I absolutely agree with that. Unfortunately, they live in a domesticated world with us. They're no longer free. And I bring that up because it is natural for Horses. It's a basic instinct for a Horse to pull back, especially when you put pressure around their pole and around their face. And a lot of the things that I bring up in my Podcasts and in my webinars are not talked about. And I know that it's, it's in my webinars. Thanks Lydia. I know that it's, it might be new information or it's just definitely not something that most people talk about.

Caroline Beste (6m 39s):
I don't know how to impress upon my audience that when I talk about something, I will only bring it up if I have repeated experience with it, whether it's good or bad. And I've tried it and either it's worked or it hasn't. And not just once, but on multiple different types of courses in multiple different types of, of situations. So what I'm trying to say is I have a lot of merit behind my word. You know, I don't just say things because I think they're good. I say them because I believe in them. I've tested them, I've tried them many times, multiple times, different ways. And, and I've done this for you all. I've done this to, I've spent the time, you know, not only do I wanna make it right and better for the Horse and as best as we can for the Horse in their learning journey with us, absolutely.

Caroline Beste (7m 29s):
But it's also for all of you. So please feel free to ask questions. Lydia's gonna be looking for your questions and any comments, definitely love it. So where I wanna start with all of this is, is I absolutely do not believe, nor do I practice Tying Horses to teach patients. Now, I do believe that Horses need to learn to be tied. And I do believe that Horses need to learn Patience, but Tying them to teach them. That is to me just stupid. It, I it is just stupid. You're going against your natural instincts, number one.

Caroline Beste (8m 11s):
And so a couple of the points I wanna, I wanna bring up starting Young Horses and rehabilitating Horses and working with Horses at every age. So I'm gonna start these points and then we'll dive into 'em a little bit. Lydia is gonna share her personal experiences, especially being a professional ranch guide, you know, taking people out, Guests out on Ranch Horses for years, having your own Horses. So the first point I wanna make is you do not need to tie a Horse to teach them to tie. And please if anybody has any questions like why not or how, please ask.

Caroline Beste (8m 56s):
So number one, that's an old traditional mindset and we have to figure out or learn where it, where it comes from and why people don't question it. I don't understand. But a lot of our training theory principles and, and you know, the way we train in, in the United States, in America particularly, is because of the cowboys, because of the West and having cattle ranches. So you can trace a lot of our traditional, our mindset in America, our training methods.

Caroline Beste (9m 37s):
A lot of it is based upon the way that our cowboys broke Horses. And you know, being a, an international clinician and traveling all over the world and over the country to teach has been part of my experience. And also studying the great masters, whether it was the Dorrance brothers, of course I didn't know them personally, but studying, wrapping my brain around what they wrote and and and what they thought, and then deciphering it and applying it to my Horsemanship. And in combination, I also studied the great dressage, classical dressage masters.

Caroline Beste (10m 17s):
Whether I, I didn't have a chance to work with them personally, obviously, but again, taking the books and breaking it down, plus taking lessons from more modern dressage. But when you go to Europe, Europe has a completely different way of teaching. And Europeans, they didn't grow up with Rand Horses, you know, they grow up with a classical system of training Horses. And when you follow a classical system of training, it's similar to the way that we humans are developed in our educational system. It is an educational system. That's the point. It's a training system. It takes years and there is a methodical way of progression of learning, a methodical way of learning.

Caroline Beste (11m 0s):
And it is very different than America. And it's important for us to understand the history for many reasons, because I'm trying to just one bring, bring you all an educational foundation, a building block, a baseline from which you can make an educated decision moving forward in your Horsemanship. So it's really important to know where does all this come from? And so here we are, America, we are a new country still. And our, you know, our founding fathers, the way we rode Horses, sure we have tons of Europeans, we're a melting pot. We had all of that. But in the beginning, you know, we had to break Horses and that's where the word broke came from.

Caroline Beste (11m 46s):
And I've mentioned this before in a couple of my previous Podcasts because it always circles back, but when you think about it, the Cowboys had to cover, you know, thousands of miles and acres to take care of the, the cattle, the ranches. And they needed as many fresh Horses as possible. And so that's why they would herd round up the wild Horses and corral them. Maybe they'd have 20 to 40 of 'em and there might be 10 guys working on a ranch and they need to be riding all day. And that's where the slow jog trot came with the quarter Horses. And so what they would do is you might get three to five guys wrangling a wild Horse, Tying them up, whatever they needed to do to throw the gear on the saddle, the bridle and get a rider on, and then let the Horse go.

Caroline Beste (12m 36s):
And the object was to run the horse into the ground, run them until they were exhausted. And that's how you would begin the training process for these wild Horses to be cow Horses, ranch Horses. So I'm not gonna get into it in any more depth than that, but that's where, you know, breaking broke to ride, we're gonna break the Horse. I mean, I hate that terminology because you literally back then were brought, were breaking the spirit of the horse, you were breaking their spirit. What else is it you guys? It's just common sense. I mean, you're just riding the hell out of these Horses into the ground, you know, the buck, whatever If you could stay on until they, they stopped bucking and they just kept running.

Caroline Beste (13m 23s):
And If, you talk to some of the, I did have the, the honor of working with late Jack Brainard for quite some time, many, many years ago. And of course he think he was a hundred, 101 when he passed away a couple of years ago. And I was working with him when he was in his mid eighties and he was discovering, he knew about classical dressage and western or cowboy dressage western dressage. But he was really at that age, it's beau it was beautiful to see him reentering the Horse world, so to speak, or the classical dressage world. But he would tell great stories. And he was great friends with Ray Hunt and he knew that, he knew that the Dorrance brothers and you know, was old enough to, to know a lot of things.

Caroline Beste (14m 9s):
And so we got quite a bit of a history storytelling when we were all at his clinics. And I spent, I spent about a month with them in total one year. So I'm bringing this up because back then even the, the ranchers, you know, working the cattle, the Horses all learned how to ground tie most of the time they were too exhausted to go anywhere. They just learned how to ground tie. And hopefully, you know, depending on what kind of person you were back then, cuz look at the dos brothers, they wanted a gentler way and they made a gentler way and a compassionate way of working with Horses and starting them. But, you know, If, you had a really good relationship with your Horse and you were with your Horse or Horses all day.

Caroline Beste (14m 54s):
They didn't leave you. You became part of that herd. Now you get to, you know, more, more, what's the word I wanna say, Cosmopolitan domestication of the Horse world. We're not working on ranches and, and we wanna ride and we wanna do all these things. And I don't know who developed cross ties. And it really bothers me, saddens me that so many new Horse Owners especially are taught or they just listen without doing any research or investigation on their own. They just think, Oh, I'm a new Horse owner, This is the way it's done. I don't question it.

Caroline Beste (15m 34s):
Meaning they're either leasing a Horse, riding a Horse, or they have their own Horse and, and cross Tying is just the way to go. And how many of us have seen Horses have horrible accidents with cross ties? How many of us have experienced that? We've seen it, I can't tell you, I'd say out of all the thousands of Horses I've worked, what? And a lot of them have, some of them have been wild, some of them have been babies. So let's talk about older Horses, even if they're two years old and older. Out of all of those Horses, I'd say nine outta 10 of them hated to be tied. And they might stand there quietly at the, the cross tie, but they were tense.

Caroline Beste (16m 15s):
They, you know, the whites of their eyes tension through their body. And God forbid if the farrier made a sudden movement or any of us made a sudden movement and that Horse was running backwards or rearing up or panicking on some level. So it's just something to really think about and we're gonna, we're gonna dive in. So as I was saying earlier, it's natural for a Horse to resist pressure at the pole. It is their instinct to push back or push through pressure around the pole and specifically around the head. Think about being a pre animal in predators like wolves and mountain lions, you know, coming after you and attacking you.

Caroline Beste (17m 2s):
Think about, you know, the wildlife on the African prairies, the zebras, the antelopes, all the prey animals and how the predators always, where do they go? They go for the jugular where they go for their pole, the zebras and the antelopes. And the same thing with the Horses because this is where their balance is. So they can take 'em down by getting their jugular, but they can take 'em down by biting them behind the ears, their pull. And so that's again where the horse's balance is. And this is all connecting the dots. So those of you that are more advanced with Horsemanship and understand how, how understand how the pole of a Horse works. Especially when you are riding and you are developing your Horse in, you know, it's not collection, but you know, you're developing your Horse for softness in hand in the rain and, and, and to not be resistant of the bit or you know, the bitless bridal, you want the Horse to soften at the pole.

Caroline Beste (17m 59s):
It takes a lot of trust for a Horse to soften at the pole. You guys, it is a natural instinct for them to fear that type of pressure. Nobody explains this though. And so we just think, oh, this Horse has to be halter broke and if they give us any resistance, then we're just gonna make it happen. And so learning to tie in my opinion, should be taught it should not be made. And so a lot of this, the news feed the post that I was receiving this past the month of October from a lot of professionals, it was interesting, you know, we've heard of patient's polls and I'm not talking about snubbing, I'm talking about Tying.

Caroline Beste (18m 51s):
And one particular person had a photo of their big indoor and they had tied the Horses high so the Horses could move around and not get caught, which is a wonderful technique. But I think they had three or five of them tied. And they were very excited that their Horses were standing there watching what was going on in the facility, but standing quietly. And my question is, I think it's absolutely ridiculous, absolutely insane that you have to do this to a Horse. There is no reason, number one, who in the hell is gonna be Tying a Horse for hours.

Caroline Beste (19m 34s):
Why? In, in a normal situation you tie a Horse to groom them, you tie them to put their tack on, you tie them for the farrier. Why would you tie them for hours? And 99% of the time, most of us don't understand the proper preparation. Most Horse Owners, you're not trainers and even trainers are not well educated either, but there's a whole litany of proper preparation to develop the Horse to get them to the point where they're okay with being tied. You don't just tie 'em and, and throw it and see if it sticks and it works.

Caroline Beste (20m 17s):
And unfortunately, I can't tell you how many of my students, you know, let's say they've been with Horses most of their life and then they finally get a Horse that can't be tied. Or they get a young Horse and they wanna teach it to be tied. They think Tying it is gonna teach it. And so absolutely insane to me. So those posts kept circulating and then other people, you know, you got the majority of the people that were responding to these posts were in agreement. The majority of the people were in with Tying Horses for hours. And, and the biggest conversation or point that was made, like with all these different posts, I I'd say that the number one focus was Horses need to learn to tie.

Caroline Beste (21m 3s):
And it's not fair to your farrier or fair to anyone else if your Horse can't be tied. And my whole, I didn't respond, but I'm thinking. But the whole point is you have to prepare your Horse to be tied. Yes, we all want a Horse with great ground manners. We all want a horse that's easy to handle, but you just don't throw them in a situation and make it happen with an an a thousand plus pound animal that is constantly in self-preservation mode until you earn enough trust and the Horse feels safe in its environment to not be on self-preservation mode.

Caroline Beste (21m 44s):
Lydia, do you have anything you wanna add?

Lydia (21m 48s):
No, I disagree a hundred percent. I just, yeah, I don't, I don't get it. I, it's, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be able, I can hardly tie myself to a seatbelt in an airplane all day. Why would I do that to a Horse?

Caroline Beste (22m 4s):
Yeah, it's not their natural instincts too. And that's what's so cruel to me, I think is, you know, yes, we can teach them to tie absolutely. And they have to learn that because they live in our domesticated world, we have to be able to handle them safely. Other people have to be able to handle them safely. We don't want a Horse that bulks or runs backwards or bolts outta your hand or in cross ties. But it, my biggest point is it doesn't happen that way. You don't just tie him to teach 'em. Tying is a result. It is the end game. It's what happens when everything else happens correctly and is in place, you know, as a professional trainer and one that has a comprehensive training system that every Horse goes through.

Caroline Beste (23m 0s):
You know, it's it's check this, check this, check this. Oops, they don't do well with this. Well then they're not gonna do well with this. And it's, it's aggravating to me and insulting to the Horse their intelligence that we don't, humans and Horse Owners take the time to do things correctly. There are no quick fixes. There are, there is no one technique like, you know, tie your Horse to a a patient's pole. So let me get through a couple more of these points and then I'm gonna read a couple of these posts and you guys let me know how many of you have heard this before, experienced it, What your thoughts are.

Caroline Beste (23m 43s):
So learning to ties about Patience, you learning, learning to tie is developing Patience. It's about Patience. We don't tie a Horse to teach 'em Patience. We teach a Horse Patience first and before they are tied. This is so important. And it's just like taking a young Horse and developing them over time like the great masters did because they appreciated the age the way the brain was developing. It's at certain ages and their maturity level. And so the other thing I wanna say is Horses are wicked smart.

Caroline Beste (24m 28s):
Shoot. I have a couple of pictures that I did not bring over with me. I had my farrier here Monday and we had, I keep calling Lando the wild Mustang. Of course not wild anymore you guys. He came to me almost two years ago, wild and afraid. And here, you know, we don't, we don't tie Horses when the farrier comes. They either are at liberty, they are ground tied, the lead rope's thrown over their wither. We do have cross ties. Sometimes I have to cross tie some of my, my Horses because they wanna play with me when I give 'em a bath.

Caroline Beste (25m 9s):
And I don't wanna get wet most of the time I don't though we get wet together, but I don't feel like getting wet cuz I allow that. It's part of our bonding ritual. And that's what they do together when they're playing in water. They rub all over each other. They, Paul, you know, they're, they're having a great time. It, it, it, they're, I'd love to see my Horses happy. So I'm usually a part of that, that experience. So that's one of the reasons why I'll cross tie them. But I can just throw the rope over or not have anything on 'em for my failure. And, and this is a mindset that you develop in your Horse. A mindset of trust, respect, learning how to work with you, you learning how to work with a Horse.

Caroline Beste (25m 52s):
It's about feeling safe in their environment and safe with what you introduce to them, including a new failure. Like I said, trust, respect, confidence, feeling safe, partnership. And it's developed over time. And through that process the Horse matures just like a child does. Through the process of learning, if the learning is set up correctly, the Horse naturally learns to get quiet, to get self disciplined, focused and quiet. And so there needs to be guidelines to follow when teaching a Horse to tie such as age appropriate. How old are they?

Caroline Beste (26m 32s):
My gosh, maturity level. You could have a really immature 6, 7, 8 year old Horse still very immature. Yep. Yep. Education. Have you, are you giving your Horse an education? Remember, you know, it's proper preparation. It's teaching them Patience before you tie them. You don't tie them to teach them Patience. You teach 'em Patience first and that means you follow building blocks the foundation to creating the foundation. Do we have any comments or questions? Nope. Everybody good?

Caroline Beste (27m 12s):
Come on. You guys gotta tell me. How many of you have experienced Horses that can't tie, maybe they're your own or Horses, you

Lydia (27m 23s):
You want me to talk about Profit now?

Caroline Beste (27m 26s):
Yeah, go ahead and talk about Profit.

Lydia (27m 28s):
Yeah, the farrier was here a couple weeks ago and he was pretty antsy. I knew it, you know, and I said to my farrier, this might, you know, takes little time today cuz I could tell how my Horse was being and we made it through all four feet. He kept trying to take Frank's hat off and he didn't like that. How

Caroline Beste (27m 48s):
Old is Prophet?

Lydia (27m 49s):
He's, He's six.

Caroline Beste (27m 51s):
Yep. So he's six. And he, to me and Lydia you guys Prophet is an immature six year old. He's still very playful, very mouthy, but he is also had some bad experiences. You've only had him two years. So his first four years

Lydia (28m 7s):
He came tied in a trailer. And I haven't tied him yet. That tells you something right there. Like me knowing the program and what we do. When he was brought out of the trailer and led the perimeter of the pasture and, and what I saw, I was like, he's not even ready to be tied in a trailer, but he was trailered here tight, you know? So thank God for Cochise, my older h orse because he has really taught him how to stand still, not just what I've done. It takes that almost 24 hours a day of, you know, dealing with that I'm gonna bite you.

Lydia (28m 49s):
No you're not. I'm gonna bite you. No you're not. I'm gonna bite you. No you're not. You know, And that, that's what I see my older Horse doing. And if I didn't have his help, I'd be further behind. But now I can wrap the lead rope around a rail one time and he will stay for a while. Like he's gotten quiet enough to, to do that. But I haven't put a bullet on it or anything yet. No. Yeah, he's not ready. And so at the end of the session with the farrier, I mean my farrier really, really is kind. He's compassionate. He likes to allow the Horse to learn. But he said, you know, maybe just time over to that post all day.

Lydia (29m 29s):
And you know, if I did that with prophet, he'd pull the post outta the ground. I know he would

Caroline Beste (29m 34s):
Or he'd hurt himself. And I, I had a very, I had a horrific experience with that in my, the beginning of my years learning and training. Horses you guys. So you just never know. And, and no one, you know, you wanna get to a point where you test things and you test things gradually with your Horse so that you don't, something crazy doesn't happen and the Horse gets spooked or flips out or feels triggered and ends up panicking. You don't want that panic cuz that's where accidents happen and it's, there's no point of return.

Caroline Beste (30m 14s):
The damage is done, whatever level of damage. And I've personally been through that one time and I never wanna go through it again. It was, it was horrifying, horrifying If. You test your Horse and you loosely tie them and something spooks them or you set it up where you can kind of casually, softly kind of add a little stimuli to see how they respond to Tying, you know, keep testing it and do they pull back and then they give or do they just struggle and you, and you want them to be able to, if they, if they're gonna struggle and they feel that they can't get away, that becomes traumatizing.

Caroline Beste (30m 57s):
That absolutely you've created a monster. And we don't want it to get to that point. We want them to listen to us. We want that trust there. We want them to feel safe in their environment. And, and most importantly, part of the building blocks in foundation that profits still needs, you know, your young Horse still needs i is the building blocks of, of the self-regulation, the ability for the Horse to, to keep thinking their way through situations instead of going into the sympathetic nervous system of self-preservation, fight, flight or freeze. We keep developing them.

Caroline Beste (31m 38s):
So they're, they remain in their parasympathetic or it's easy to get them back instantaneously, within seconds into their parasympathetic where they feel safe and calm, relaxed and relaxed in release endorphins. And this is huge. This is why building blocks are so important. You wanna create, you wanna develop your Horse so that one, yes, they're trusting, competent and feel safe, but deeper than that, that they can think for themselves. And they don't panic. They don't go into self-preservation, which is a natural instinct, right? I mean, that's where they live and here we are trying to develop them to, to be more of a thinking, which they can, they're so smart and not so reactive.

Caroline Beste (32m 23s):
Yeah, that's a typical statement. It's just like, this is similar but different. You know, we, I found my farrier, his wife is a student of mine over a year ago, and he's just a blessing to so many of us. I've had several Podcasts with him and up until I found him, I was going through a farrier every year and I had, Sundance is the only older aging Horse I have now, but I had three at the time, Sundance legend, Smokey with a lot of arthritis, you guys. And these guys were just, you know, hiking up their high quarters, you know, hiking up their legs, bending 'em. And my Horses were fall, almost falling over, you know, they, they couldn't bend, they couldn't hold, they couldn't, you know, we were standing there holding them up.

Caroline Beste (33m 13s):
And this last one before we found Brad, I found Brad was like, well just drug him, just dope 'em up. You know, give him Butte for three days before I come And, and, and I'm like, I'm not dopey my Horses, you know, they're already on equi equinox, you know, the lowest level or dose of of Butte for, for aging, you know, arthritic Horses amongst other, you know, supplements and finding Brad. He just waits, he trims them correctly, which helps all their angles, which helps the way they carry themselves. I don't have that type of, my Horses don't show that stress anymore.

Caroline Beste (33m 53s):
They, they pick up their feet for him, they pick up their hoofs and then they're relaxed. So, I mean, that's just an example of when something's really working, you know, versus trying to force something to work. So I think a baseline would be, we don't want stress. We don't want our Horses to be stressed. You can't learn in a stressed mindset. We can't, Horses can't. But somehow a lot of our traditional methods tell us just keep stressing them out until they, they give to it and all they do is you break 'em, they submit to it, they tolerate it, they don't accept it. You just break 'em, just break 'em down.

Caroline Beste (34m 34s):
It's barbaric.

Lydia (34m 37s):
I I feel like If, you can't lead your Horse. If I can't touch my two 50 lead rope under Prophet's chin without him resisting, yes I've got work to do still. You know,

Caroline Beste (34m 51s):
Plus you have to be able to hold it. That is correct. And that's, that's what I teach in the program. That's part of the way you measure it and test it. But then you keep adding and holding just like when you ride, you wanna be able to close your hands around those rains. Whether you're in a lead rope or riding and that Horse go whoop, I just hit that wall of pressure and it didn't trigger me. Meaning the Horse doesn't push through it or pull away from it. They give in completely accept it. So yeah. And then you know, you have to you, that's part of how you get total safety with Horses. It's not just about the technique, but technique is important when shit hits the fan.

Caroline Beste (35m 32s):
So here's a couple of, yeah, a couple of professionals that were their posts. I'm not gonna say who it is is, and you guys just putting it out there. So this person wrote, I almost shared a post this morning because the first half of the post was awesome. The second half of the post was not part of my belief system low. It was on the whole tying horses up subject. The beginning was great because it says something to the likes of, do you expect your Horse to stand patiently while tied when you can't go a few minutes without a distraction? That doesn't make any sense. Where I kept, where I kept from sharing was when it went from that to Tying.

Caroline Beste (36m 14s):
A Horse up is cruel, which I disagree with. I don't disagree. This writer, this professional disagrees with the person that said it's cruel to tie a Horse up. Tying for me is such a valuable skill. This is the the writer not me. Tying for me is such a valuable skill and shouldn't be used to punish or torture a Horse. This is Caroline. I agree with that. And this is the writer. I laughed at the beginning of the article because so many of us struggle to just chill and relax. We are programmed in contin conditioned to be busy, be productive.

Caroline Beste (36m 57s):
And worse of all we've been handed gadgets. Okay? This is where I don't agree with, We're not Horses though. And Horses are not conditioned to be busy unless we're always go, go, go with them. So she kind of loses me when she writes about that. And then she writes, when we have the constant grind and chatter in our heads, especially if the str, if it's stress related, you cause your body to respond as If. You are in the environment you're thinking about. Don't believe me. Think about something you fear. Think about it in detail. Does your heart rate increase? You bet it does because your mind has the ability to change your physiology. That is true when it comes to Horses, at least Horses in my program, this woman writes, I don't tie them to teach them Patience.

Caroline Beste (37m 44s):
I don't tie them to punish them, I tie them so they have a place to wait and relax. Now she completely lost me there. This is Caroline speaking. She completely lost me there. So she ties them to have a place to wait and relax. I mostly tie them up after their sessions. Oh yeah guys, I was taught that too, believe me, this is Caroline speaking. I was taught that and I ended up having a horrific accident with one of my client's. Horses. So the writer states for me, this cuts down on barn sourness, arena, sourness heard bound issues.

Caroline Beste (38m 23s):
Pawing, wiggling, et cetera. So this is Caroline speaking. Now this is what pisses me off you guys, this kind of shit coming from a professional trainer. It. And so everybody's reading this. Every backyard Horse owner is reading this and going, well my Horse doesn't tie very well so I'm just gonna tie 'em. And my Horse has buddy sour issues. So I'm just gonna tie 'em my Horse pause. I'm just gonna tie them. I mean that's what she's teaching people. It's not that simple. But I don't just tie them, she writes, so they learn the skills.

Caroline Beste (39m 3s):
There's more to it than that. Yay. Yay. She writes, In working Horses on the ground, the very first thing I teach them is to be responsive to me and my age than I give them a place to soften and relax. I go back and forth between these two things until the Horse starts to have a balance of responsiveness and relaxation. Oh, before I tie them, they need to understand how to yield to the halter and they need to be able to stand still at liberty without help for the length of time I wish to tie them. What? Sorry guys, I, this is Caroline talking cuz this is gonna be, you know, a non-visual podcast when I edit it this afternoon.

Caroline Beste (39m 46s):
My Horses, I don't expect my Horses to stand still when they're at liberty unless we specifically are working together and it's for brief moment when I might go get a tool, but most of the time they follow me cuz they love being with me or they're just chilling watching me. You gotta be kidding me. Is this woman lying or does she really? Do you know what you would have to do to a Horse to get them to stand at liberty for long periods of time? I'm sorry. There is no way you can make that happen unless you beat the shit out of 'em. Unless you use so much negative reinforcement that that Horse doesn't even wanna think about moving anyway.

Caroline Beste (40m 36s):
So she says before I tie them, they need to understand how to yield to the halter. I get that. And they need to be able to stand still at liberty without help for the length of time I wish to tie them. This usually solves 90% of Tying issues. Just that skill alone. How the hell does liberty tie Liberty teach a Horse to tie a Horse has to, there has to be a combination of all this stuff as far as liberty and in teaching quieting of the mind style, liberty is what I'm talking about. And then teaching a Horse to give to pressure at the pole. There's no way in hell If.

Caroline Beste (41m 17s):
You just keep avoiding pressure at the pole. And I've had students do this, well my Horse is great ground Tying, and I'm like, that's not the point. Can you tie them? Can you pull on them? Can you lead them? How do you ride them? Is there any pressure or contact around the pole in the face? How do they do if they can't do well then you've gotta go back to your basic building blocks. And it does not start with liberty Liberty's a piece of it. Being able to have your Horse stand there. Like I just explained, my advanced Horses stand at liberty with my failure. But that is, that takes time.

Caroline Beste (41m 58s):
It doesn't start there and you don't make it happen. So for me, Tying a Horse isn't mean. It's not not Caroline. This is the rider, the rider states. So for me, Tying, a Horse isn't mean. It's not cruel. When you teach a Horse how to relax and enjoy the scenery. Oh what the hell? Oh my god, they're not people. I feel this on a deeper level because I never used to be able to just sit and not think. We're not talking about you and your human brain talking about how a Horse relates to its environment. Oh my god, I want my Horse to be in their senses. I want my Horse if it senses something to be natural to let its instincts take over.

Caroline Beste (42m 44s):
But I also want it to think and I want it to trust me. So in that instant, if we're in that situation together, that we can communicate and connect. And that Horse trusts me enough that it doesn't go into full flight or fight. Holy crap, this is the garbage that's out there. So to do a little self-promotion, she writes, I'm relaunching my yada yada yada course. If I tell you the course, you guys will know who it is that teaches you this very skill for both you and your Horse. Well, I did go to the course and it is a bunch of 20, 25 techniques there to me.

Caroline Beste (43m 30s):
There are no building blocks, there isn't. Do this first and then this and then this, and then tested and then, you know, revisited if it's not producing X results and then move on to X, Y, and Z. Oh no. So yeah. All right, so that's one person. You guys ready for me to go on to the next?

Lydia (43m 49s):
I have a question.

Caroline Beste (43m 51s):
Yes,

Lydia (43m 53s):
Morgan, Christie, can you give a couple of examples of how to help a Horse quiet the mind while tied? What is the most basic couple of building blocks to start?

Caroline Beste (44m 4s):
Those are great questions, Morgan. And, and like I keep repeating myself, you don't tie a Horse to teach in Patience. So If, you want your horse's mind to get quiet while being tied. You have to do a lot of things before you tie them. It's not about Tying, that's a test. All these things are tests. Does your horse load in a trailer? How does your Horse tie, how does your Horse lead? How does your Horse do X, Y, and Z? Those are tests until your Horse does them well. And then you move on to the next learning experience or teaching moment. So to get a Horse to get still and focused and disciplined and quiet, they have to feel safe.

Caroline Beste (44m 47s):
That's number one. If they don't feel safe in, in with you or in their environment, they don't feel safe, they're not gonna learn. And everything you do is going to be forcing foresee habituation or operat conditioning. And that is the problem with 99% of our trainers are professionals out there. They're teaching you all these techniques, but they're not giving you, to me the fundamental building blocks to developing all of this. And in a holistic way. Holistic way where we're, we are looking at the Horses emotional, mental, physical, and spiritual wellbeing.

Caroline Beste (45m 32s):
During this process, we're looking at the holistic process. And so disciplining a horse's mind doesn't begin with Tying. It doesn't, will never start at liberty. And expecting them to stand still, you're gonna have to work through a systematic process, which I, I teach my big program. Lydia is a student of it where you start from the very beginning and you are testing the Horse, you're seeing how the Horse shows up and then you are taking what you're learning and developing them. And that's key. You know, you don't know who your Horse is unless you're a professional trainer.

Caroline Beste (46m 14s):
You have no experience, you have no understanding and of of what, where do I wanna, It's like I always say you only you. What do I always say? You only know what you know. You don't know what you don't know. And so everybody's knowledge, your Horse knowledge is based upon your experience. So if you've only had one Horse and you've never trained them, but you like to dabble here and dabble there and learn a few new things, it doesn't mean you can train a Horse. It doesn't mean you can start a Horse. It doesn't mean you can restart a Horse. Your experience is limited to your experience.

Caroline Beste (46m 55s):
Your knowledge is limited to your experience. And so you've got to wrap your brain around like, I mean what does it take for the human mind to get quiet and focused and still, right? And now you're dealing with a prey animal who's always in their sensory aware sensory processing and that's their right side of their brain. Now we gotta develop the left side so it's thinking more. And we have to, while we're developing the left side through specific exercises that I have designed, we're developing the relationship so that we have the level of connection, communication, we have the level of trust, confidence with one another respect.

Caroline Beste (47m 45s):
We are creating a partnership. You know, we're developing all of these things. All these things have to be there for it to be right for the Horse, for it to really work, for it to be solid, for it to be solid with no holes, no quick fixes. And what's the final outcome for me and my students and in my training system, I want safety. I wanna be able to ride bitless and in a bareback pad in any type of discipline. Yep, no helmet. And no helmet, thank you. And no helmet because I have permission to get on my Horse because my Horse is in that relationship with me.

Caroline Beste (48m 28s):
And in that thinking frame of mind and we understand each other and I still understand and respect that it is a prey animal. But when those instincts get stimulated, which are there, I don't wanna dumb them out or dull them out, they're there. The horse's brain is engaged in, in strong enough to switch back and forth from the self-preservation, sensory awareness to the thinking responsive side. And it takes, I call them brain games. You've got to develop that side of the horse's brain. Just like in my work, it's hand in hand. You're also developing the humans right side of their brain.

Caroline Beste (49m 11s):
So you're kind of getting, I'm getting you guys outta your cognitive and more into your sensory aware, you're intuitive, your feel. So we can merge the two of you together strengthening the, the, the weaker sides of both of the Horse and the human's brains. Yeah, sorry, there's no quick fix for that. But just keep in mind mine,

Lydia (49m 31s):
I wanna chime in and remind everybody that you just did a masterclass on some of these building blocks as well.

Caroline Beste (49m 38s):
Thank you. So yeah, thank you. Yeah. And I do offer that masterclass for sale. Yeah, for 30 day access too. Thank you Lydia. So this next person wrote and another, you know, someone out there promoting what they're doing, their professional trainer training facility, If, you can't sit still. This person writes for the same time you expect your Horse to without any enrichment or entertainment snacks or anything to do, then your expectations for your Horse are higher than the standards you hold to yourself. To some of this stuff is so ridiculously written.

Caroline Beste (50m 19s):
Why are we comparing Horses to humans when it comes to patients? We are two completely different species that have a lot of similarities. But you guys, the Horses live in their right brain, their sensory awareness and processing brain, they don't have a third lobe to their brain. They don't process information cognitively like we do. It'll never happen. So like humans, this is a fact, this is research. Horses have similar brains. I've done a lot of written articles because I'm a trauma expert on PTSD and the effects of the brain in the nervous system.

Caroline Beste (51m 6s):
So Horses share the same hippocampus area within the brain. Corpus colossal, you know, they secrete the secrete the same amount of adrenaline and endorphin like humans, it's very similar. So when Horses feel stressed, they go into their fight, flight or freeze, they release adrenaline cortisol, just like we do. It's very similar amounts and similar amount of time, similar amount of reaction time. And same process for when a Horse is relaxed, feeling safe and calm, they and connected. They, they release endorphin.

Caroline Beste (51m 48s):
And so it's it against, just like humans, the biggest difference is they don't have the cognitive side of their brain. It's not as developed. And passing information from the right hemisphere to the left hemisphere of their brain is very small. It's a very small area. Ours is very large. So we could switch back and forth. That's why any of you study natural Horsemanship in Parelli was huge revolutionary in bringing this awareness to training that you work on both sides of the Horse, that you work both sides of the brain because of this information. And back then when Pat really, and I'm not a Parelli fan, but I i I do respect Pat Parelli and what he started the movement, the revolution that he started, cuz he got away from traditional training and really, and so did the dos and so did a lot of others.

Caroline Beste (52m 45s):
But Pat really made it, you know, forefront. You know, he really brought it to the forefront in horse training. So there wasn't any research of the horse's brain back when Pat was talking about this. But he had enough experience and instinct and knowledge to, to put those patterns together. So he, he definitely understood it. Okay, so this person writes, let's see you stand in one spot tethered to a post and do so for 20, 30, 45 minutes. Okay? This isn't about people. And yes I do agree people need to get focused and disciplined and centered and grounded and quiet.

Caroline Beste (53m 29s):
But a Horse doesn't think like a human. So why are you people riding like this? He keeps talking about when we're stuck in a waiting mode. We are not any more patient than we expect our Horses to be. In fact less, I just, yada yada yada. So this blows my mind. It's stupid to me. It is absolute stupidity to me that a professional Horse trainer's even writing about this it there there is no comparison. Horses don't think like people, they, their instincts are completely different. They are a prey where a predator and until you can, you can strengthen their cognitive side of their brain and all these other areas that I've been talking about, they're gonna live in their self preservation mode.

Caroline Beste (54m 19s):
They're gonna live there. Now, unfortunately, you know again it gets even deeper and more complicated because If, you work with wild Horses and you, you earn their trust like I have with this wild mustang where he's open to learning, he learns like that and things that would normally scare or trigger one of my Horses that has baggage and lots of prior trauma before I got them things that would spook them. He's just gonna be like, Huh, what is that? Do I need to worry about it? And then look at me and go, well you're fine and calm.

Caroline Beste (55m 0s):
I'm not worried. And so that's a whole nother experience that most people don't ever get to experience cuz they've never worked. What a really healthy wild Horse. And that's what wild Horses do. They don't react, they don't waste their time reacting unless they really have to. Yay, yay. So this guy is a complete idiot anyway. He is, he's a complete idiot. So If, you took this post, he writes All Tying is bad. Then it's really time to self reflect on what you can't see on why you can't see any middle ground between developing more patients and not just leaving a Horse to figure out something they'd never been asked to do.

Caroline Beste (55m 46s):
I agree with that. I do like his choice of words developing patients versus leaving a horse to figure it out. You can teach patients in good time habits without making it an incredibly unpleasant experience. I agree with that. Where your Horse does not violently pull back until they shut down or dig a hole for an hour by plowing. I, I totally agree with that. I just don't agree with him bringing in this this human analogy metaphor, whatever the hell you wanna call it. And again, he's all about promoting his work too. I love it. Horse and Rider Magazine, I will give that name out If.

Caroline Beste (56m 27s):
You guys just look up teaching Horse Tying to teach horses, patience, Horse and Rider Magazine. You'll get a pretty traditional mindset written about that. And basically what is a patient's pole? How to use a patient's pole. Same thing with cowboy dressage. I don't agree with any of it because they're teaching, you know, course Owners who are not professional trainers that it's okay to try these things and if you're not a professional trainer or a good one, then you don't understand the building blocks. And that's what developing means. We are developing. It's a learning process.

Caroline Beste (57m 7s):
It's a systematic learning process. You don't just tie 'em to teach 'em. So, and then here's my favorite person whose name I will use. Clinton Anderson not my favorite person. For those of you that know me, why you should tie Horses up by Clinton Anderson. So Tying a Horse up for long and I bring him up because my God, how many people follow him and how many of their Horses I end up getting to undo what's been done. Tying a Horse up for long periods of time accomplishes many important things in your training. Clinton writes, I have a little saying, end each training session by Tying your Horse up to a tree or post of knowledge Lydia.

Caroline Beste (57m 53s):
What the hell does that mean? Your Horse tie your Horse up to a tree or a post of knowledge like your Horse is gonna know what the hell that means. I don't get it. Your even why tire tree up? Why phrase it like that? Why does it phrase it like that? Like he gives us some catchy names so that you all are like, ooh, I'm gonna tie my Horse up to a post of knowledge cuz my Horse is gonna learn when they're tied. Yeah, right It. So this is where some of these people are getting this. Tie your Horse up after a training session.

Caroline Beste (58m 34s):
Believe me, I was there once. It was not good. When you tie your Horse up after training session, it teaches him not only respect and Patience, no it doesn't. No it doesn't. Cause a Horse doesn't think like that. But it also gives him a chance to think about, think about and absorb what you've just taught him. Well according to Clint Anderson, after he is run your Horse into the ground and he's sweating and dripping and breathing heavily, you bet that Horse is gonna stand quietly. And I've seen this in person more than once with him. The very last thing you want to do after training session is get off your Horse, take him back to the barn, unsettle him, pose him off and put him in his stall to eat.

Caroline Beste (59m 20s):
Well how about this folks? How about let's just switch this completely. How about you develop your relationship with your Horse, including training and working together so that when you dismount and take the bridal off your Horse, your Horse doesn't wanna go anywhere, Why not test it that way? And then can you walk out together at liberty back to the barn then you know your Horse had a freaking phenomenal time with you during that training session. And the biggest reward is always the relationship and the time that you share together. So going back to the barn isn't a reward for the Horse, it just is what it is.

Caroline Beste (1h 0m 7s):
I think I'm crazy. I really do. I just think some of my ideas are just so freaking out there. I most people don't even get 'em.

Lydia (1h 0m 15s):
Well people don't understand. People don't understand. One of your basic core beliefs is that you are the treat like as a human being, I am the treat for my Horse. Yeah, they don't get it.

Caroline Beste (1h 0m 28s):
So Lydia, If, you and I, we talk all the time. Love you like a sister. I am so blessed to have you in my life. And we don't get to see each other except like this. So If you and I think about this, you guys put this in perspective. Think about the person that you can't wait to see. And I'm and Lydia would be that person right now, let's say Lydia and I finally get to see each other face to face and spend time, quality time together. Oh my god, that's a treat. That is the biggest treat. That is the biggest. Can't wait to savor it, enjoy it, be in it. Well why shouldn't your Horse relationship be the same?

Caroline Beste (1h 1m 8s):
I mean I don't wanna just get on use 'em up, have somebody tack 'em, get on, do X, Y and Z. It's not about that for me. And it's not about that for a lot of people. You want your Horse to look forward to that time with you including the work. So it's no different. So anyway, I'm not gonna read anymore about what Clinton has to say cuz he gives you this whole teaching Horse to stand tied. And while I agree with those basic techniques, cuz I'll say the same to begin with, you're gonna work on your relationship and that's number one.

Caroline Beste (1h 1m 51s):
And that's a pretty big process in my training system. And then you're gonna introduce the techniques, the mechanics, like my Horse needs to learn how to lead with respect and focus my hor and connection. My Horse needs to learn how to back away from me and out of my space with focus, respect, and connection. And my Horse needs to learn how to be sent somewhere with me pulling on the back of their pole and not fear it. Fear shows up with the Horse struggling, panicking. And so I agree with, with the technique and the mechanics, but you don't start there or you might as well go learn from Clint Anderson.

Caroline Beste (1h 2m 36s):
There was another post that I, I was, I, I didn't copy and paste. It went by the time I thought about it like a couple hours later. Oh my god this is a great podcast. I couldn't find that in my newsfeed. But it stimulated a couple of these other posts in return. And like you said Lydia you've seen quite a few recently. So it's definitely going around. People are thinking about it probably because it's fall, people are out trail riding again cuz it's cooler weather and beautiful colors and, and I get all of that and

Lydia (1h 3m 10s):
I, you know, I wanna mention something that came up while you were talking and you know it's hunting season. There's Horses out working their butts off for hunters and I, the hunters that I know and the people that I wrangled for, some of them don't get that. The Horse might see or smell or hear the L deer before you do. So shut the F up and watch your Horse and you might actually get an animal.

Caroline Beste (1h 3m 40s):
That's exactly right. Oh my god. What they're like hearing smell in sight is like a hundred times or a thousand times sharper than ours. It's something crazy you guys. So where they go If,

Lydia (1h 3m 55s):
You get out your binoculars.

Caroline Beste (1h 3m 59s):
That is excellent. Oh I tell you, we have so much to learn from our Horses if we just respect them in that way. Alright, is there anything else? I I don't think I left out anything. I think I had some pretty solid points there with the, the number one being you don't teach your Horse Patience by Tying them. You teach your Horse Patience and then you test them to see if they can tie. But you also have to teach them to respond to pressure, not fear it. So there's a lot more that goes into it. Oh, so much more. I hope that helps a lot of you with this.

Caroline Beste (1h 4m 41s):
I mean it's a pretty prevalent problem with a lot of people cause Yes, we all want our Horses to be able to tie and not spook and not pull back and if they pull to release themselves. Yeah. And I have a, I have a trick and it's a, it's a secret and it is a trick. And I say it like a trick because it is probably the number one easiest way to teach your Horse to give and not panic with pressure and not tie them. You don't do it by Tying them, but sorry guys. You're gonna have to join my Mastery program to learn what that secret is. It's just one thing and it's, you really just kind of don't have to worry about anything.

Caroline Beste (1h 5m 24s):
You just let the Horse figure it out. It's the safest way. And they don't figure it out by being tied. But they do figure out how to not panic when they feel pressure around their poll. And this is especially excellent for young Horses that you are teaching to lead. Yeah, it's a very safe way. Very, very safe way. So anyway, sorry. There is a way. Okay. Is that good? Yeah, we're good guys. Yeah. All right. Awesome. Thank you. And the next

Lydia (1h 6m 1s):
Up.

Caroline Beste (1h 6m 2s):
Okay, thanks guys. I hope, I hope this has helped. The next podcast we have is next Wednesday, the second. Oh my gosh, I can't believe it's coming up. And we have back one of our guest speakers, Carolyn Waller. Yay. She's gonna be back talking more about her Horse experiences. The, which do you call it, the best of the Rex?

Lydia (1h 6m 27s):
Yes. The best of the Rex that taught her the most. Right?

Caroline Beste (1h 6m 32s):
Yep. So that's excellent. So a lot of you really enjoyed, We all did her Podcasts last month or in October, like Yeah, it'll be a month. Yeah, it'll be a month by next week. So. And then we should have Chris back too. Yeah. Either in December or January. So, yeah, so good stuff. And then I think I'm gonna do one more podcast before the end of the year and it might be on pressure and release, cuz that's another big, I really wanna bust that one. And we'll be talking about it all month on Facebook. So I'll be, we'll be doing posts and teaching Tuesdays talking about pressure and release.

Caroline Beste (1h 7m 14s):
Yeah. One of the,

Lydia (1h 7m 15s):
One of the main reasons why I found you was because you're the only trainer that doesn't run a Horse in circles.

Caroline Beste (1h 7m 21s):
I don't There. Pressure and release. Oof. Yep. That's a whole, Yeah, we're gonna do a podcast on that. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. That's a big one. A big myth. Myth Buster. All right guys. Bless everyone. May you always be one with your horse and we'll see you next week. And thank you Lydia. Bye everybody. Okay, bye hon. Bye guys.