Leadership Lounge with Jack Tester
Getting Intentional With Jamie Gerdsen
Nexstar member Jamie Gerdsen talks to Jack about the importance of creating actionable values and how they help both employees and management understand their impact on a company.
Nexstar member Jamie Gerdsen talks to Jack about the importance of creating actionable values and how they help both employees and management understand their impact on a company.
[inaudible].
Speaker 2:Hi, this is Jack Chester. Welcome to another episode of Leadership Lounge. It's a beautiful June morning in Saint Paul, Minnesota. Cut It crisp June. I know it's not great for the air conditioning business, but uh, it's still a beautiful day and it's even better because sitting across the desk from me is Jamie Gertz. And how are you doing Jamie? I'm good, I'm good. How are you this morning Jack? What brings you to St Paul? I was here for an advanced marketing training class. It's pretty interesting. That's the first one we've ever done. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's been a nice, uh, it's been good. We've been with about six different companies, learning and swapping ideas and it's been good. Well thank you for coming in. You, you got in here a little early, probably cut out a workout or whatever you're doing this morning to be here. And, uh, I'm gonna have you tell your story cause it's an interesting one and you've written it to a place of prominence in the industry. You're now on the next, our board of directors. Thank you for that. Appreciate it very much, you know, and yeah. What I find that a, there's a story, there's a lesson, there's something learned from everyone's journey through this industry and you've got a unique one. Solace. Let's talk about, um, you're in a family business. So just tell me about your family business first and we'll talk about how you ended up in it. Okay. Yeah, for sure. So, um, I, I'd start off by saying we're really a business family and a family business. Um, early on, my grandfather started a company called Guzzi in heating, uh, back in 1931. This is go way back, right? Yeah. So you're conditioning. Yeah. So he, uh, couldn't find a job. And so he had a buddy who is selling, uh, who's unemployable. Is that what you're saying for, you might've been at the time k, uh, but he had a buddy who was selling natural gas to homeowners. So what they would do is he would sell a natural gas and then my grandfather would come in behind him and sell coal conversion kits, uh, for natural gas. And that's how it started. Oh, okay. We can today. So converting coal heating systems to, to uh, yeah. Yeah. Very good. That was, you know, and so fast forward, um, my grandfather died in[inaudible] 75. My Dad and his brother, uh, was and his brother was always going to be, my uncle was always going to be five years older than my dad, so my dad thought it was sunny. My uncle thought it was cloudy hour, a night and day differentials between how they ran their businesses. So my dad ended up in the family business and 85. Okay. Um, why did you go work for a small company called Rotor rooter who was trying to expand it? Heating air at the time they had bought in the small company called Apollo. Um, my dad never applied for a job outside the family business ever, uh, ended up applying for this job. Uh, they thought he was a plant because he was running, so they hired him to be a sales guy basically, uh, within two weeks of working there. Uh, the guy who was running it, you know, was, it was, I had a masters in business, which is great in MBA, but I really didn't know how to run a heating air, air conditioning business. So they ended up firing that guy and my dad became the GM. Uh, and then a year later that he got a call and rotary decided that it was no longer meeting their corporate goals and they said, hey, we're going to just shut it down. Do you want to buy it? My Dad was like, well, sure. So at the time this company was maybe$600,000 in revenue, maybe five. Very spheros this is eighties, 86 probably. This is probably, if I really thought about it, is probably the fall of 88. So I think, you know, when you left the family business had, was looking for stuff. Finally found this Gig at Apollo. Um, so we're kinda late 88, um, ends up buying the business closes on the deal. March, March of, uh, March of 89. Uh, Friday gets insurance for it walks in Monday morning and an oak tree has fallen over all of his trucks and he had about six trucks and the business was housed and then sign from guys, right. As you know. But, and then I'll tell you bags, business owners or bullets, they have backstory and second, so, but these, so it's six to eight trucks he had I think. And then it was a two family house with a pool barn in the back. Right. Not a fancy situation at all. My Dad, um, basically had when he left the family business, you know, it was a divorce, right? I mean, and he basically walked away with, you know, four to five weeks of severance, maybe a, the business was not financially viable. Um, so, you know, it was tough time. So fast forward, you know, we're back to the tree on side of the trucks. Um, on that Friday when he clothes, you know, he bought a pollo for$300 cash and the rest was quadruple collateralized and he had to go to five banks to get alone. Finally gets alone. And by all intents purposes, I think most bankers thought he was just going to go out of business. But in his mind, he's like, I've done this my entire life. I grew up in this business, I can do this business. And they would ask him for a business plan and who would be like, well, what business plan, I know what I'm doing. So, uh, so fast forward, they were profitable in their first year, which was an abbreviated year. And then a each year over we've done the same thing, which has been profitable each year, which has been great. Um, but the whole time it was Apollo heating and air. That was Paulo heating and air. Okay. So the whole time there's, so that's happening. Uh, and then I am sort of in high school going to college. Um, I was a pretty good athlete in high school and so I ended up getting a scholarship to go to Boston University. But the bottom line there is, you know, I had a 1.9 GPA on weighted and a 70 80 on my sats. I would, I would row afterschool and everybody else would stay here. Your sport was rolling. It was rowing, row, row, row, your boat rally. Just a little Bougie. Well, you know, in the Ohio River, you know, now that I get some context, it's Ohio River. I mean, you know, just don't let the water get on you and you were in front of it. So I think not London or anything isn't, no, no. This isn't like the Thames River. This is the Ohio River with barges. Right. You know, sewage. It's good. It's good. So you got a scholarship cause you're a good rower and a terrible student. Pretty much. You're a smart guy. So we're gonna have some fun right now. Right? So you must've just been really lazy. Well, you know, I think because you're a smart, intelligent guy, I've watched you, you've even wrote books. Now I have, which is another, but I will tell you, I think for me, I am gritty, right? So I am a continuous learner and I'm pretty competitive. And so, you know, if somebody says, well, you know, you can't do this or you can't do that, I'm going to put my heart and soul and trying to learn how to do it better. But, you know, high school's high school. Yeah. I think I looked back and I see there's definitely a duality. You know, you see people that you were in high school with that were super successful in high school, dwell it duality. First time ever of leadership. Loud. You like that? I like it. So I'm sorry. Okay. So the duality, the duality is you see these people that are what I call fast starters. They look really shiny and high school, they look smart. You know, maybe they're going to top tier schools, but then all of a sudden school's not life. So in the, in the school of life, um, I think I've been pretty successful, but a lot of it came from just continuous learning. So I end up going, you know, I had two college choices. Claremont community college had to pay for it, live at home and mom and dad, or go to Boston University on a scholarship. I chose Boston University, I got a rowing scholarship there. Um, and you know, I, I'd love to sit here and say I had like this amazing successful college career. Sure. Just that's where it just opened up for you, didn't it? Oh boy. Open Up. I think that's an interesting, I would say I got to Boston University and you know, I was, I was there a semester, you know, and then at the end of the day I would tell you that, um, four colleges later I finally graduated. Oh, it wasn't a straight line. Definitely not. I mean, I went from Boston University, then I went to University of Miami in Florida. Solid Joyce. Thanks mom and dad. Really? Yeah, my University of Miami in Florida. I went there for two and a half years, but I'm not sure I got more than maybe a year and a half of study a party or what? I wouldn't say it was so much partying. Is it? It's distracting. I mean, there's a lot to do in Miami, Florida besides going to school. So, um, but I didn't really, you know, when I think about Bu and I think about Miami, I just wasn't, it just never really got it or understood why I needed to go to school. I guess I wasn't really focused on academics because they weren't competitive with your other, you know, I'd, you didn't want it. So you said you're a competitive guy, but it wasn't a grades. Not For me now. Now when, when I guess when you want it, what happens is, so I leave Miami of Florida, I moved back to Cincinnati and I probably am in my early twenties, maybe 21, 22. And I'm like, you know, I need to probably pretty get out of, get on this. I'm starting to see some of my friends like close to graduation, right. I'm seeing some of my friends starting to get jobs. I'm like, I don't want to be that guy. You know, the guys was like clicked with you then, right? It's starting to, yeah. So I think looking around the Aha moment just moved back to Cincinnati. I remember I was working at Friday's on the river as a waiter and I was a horrible waiter, but I was, I was, you know, I worked in restaurants and so I was working this restaurant and I remember, I remember this really clear moment, it was like a Sunday night maybe, and this guy was filling out some paperwork and it was like his end of his shift and we all would have a beer together. All the servers together after his shift, right? Yeah. And he's sitting there and he, and he's probably 20 years, my senior, maybe a little older. And he said, and he's sitting there filling out paperwork and what are you doing there? He's like, Oh, this is my 401k retirement. And I think really, I remember it. I'm like, I think at that moment I was like, holy, oh my God, is that, am I going to be retiring from, from being a server? And Friday's like, is that all I'm going to accomplish? So I think that's when I went back, I got, I got pretty serious then. I mean, I was like, you know, so I ended up graduating between time off between schools and stuff. I mean, I ended up graduating in three and a half years from college and I graduated like a three, four, three, five. I just got really, really serious. And at the end of it, towards the tail end, it was, you know, taken seven classes or whatever it was, taking as many classes I could fit in and a semester working part time, sometimes working full time, um, and going to school. And that was really the, the probably the last two, two years of my college experience. It was just getting it done. Right. Yeah. So that's good. That's good wisdom though. Seriously, that you could see the path that, that you were on and you could see it played forward and uh, didn't want that path right now. I, I mean it's the, it's like, hey, you know, light switches on and you're like, I don't, I don't want to be, I don't want to do on it down this direction. And so, um, and then I have always been one of these people who was able to create real clarity around goals, right? So I would say, okay, well what do I want to do? And you, I could visualize the future forward and say, this is kind of like, and maybe not 10 years, but I would, in this particular case, it was like I could visualize myself, what did I need to do and how am I going to do it? And I can get real clear about that. Okay. So Jamie, bad high school student. Yeah. Good athlete. Jamie something, you know, the light bulb finally turned on, you finally got motivated, you graduated from college and of course you went right back in the family business. No. So I, I did, I, I did graduate from college and then I went to work for my dad and three weeks later my dad fired me. Okay. And he's, he, he was pretty clear. He said, why did he fire you? Well, I remember the day, I mean, he came in and he said, what are you doing here? And I said, I explained what I was doing and he asked me a like another like, again, like, what are you doing? I'm saying this is what I'm doing. And he said, well, no, what are you doing here? Still? He's like, you can't work here. He's like, I'm not gonna let you do. What I did is like you to show up one day and then all of a sudden you're this 25 years later and you're still working for the family business. You've got to go work for somewhere else for at least five years. So, so I left the, I left the business or to go. So you'd worked in a business off and on through high school and college? Yeah, kind of like everybody delivering parts and stuff and drinking mountain dew, driving a truck around. It's great. You know, a lot of responsibility. Um, yeah. So then I, uh, I left Apollo and I went to a live work for this startup company in Tampa, Florida. A Guy I knew had started this business and it was a competitive local exchange carrier called CELIAC. Um, they competed against, uh, incumbent local exchange carriers, like Cincinnati Bell, local, local telephone service, correct. Wire, basically wire line, local phone service, you know. Okay. The telephone, right. Cutting Edge, getting very cutting edge. Right. Uh, we ended up, uh, so I ended up working there for, Gosh, I don't know, five years or six years, something like that. Uh, during that time though, it was one of these crazy places where it was in the.com era. Um, and that was re, you know, have a business plan on the back of a Napkin, raise a bunch of money, uh, hire a bunch of people and go public. So that's what we ended up doing. I got, I think I was a 75th employee, uh, when I got there and when I left, I think at one point we had 3000 employees, but I remember there was a day, um, there were, you know, all of a sudden went down to 1500, they call it a riff and had nowhere to riff was reduction in force. Noah thought it was like a ocean wave of some sort. So it was a rower. Oh yeah. You know, these guys, it's all about the water. Right? So by that, so this company for them, by the way. Yeah. So I did business development. I traveled around the country to meet, well, you know, acquisitions. Is that what that is? It's a fancy term for just, you know, talking to people. Okay. Because I've heard people say that and it's, and it's been defined as sales. It's been defined as acquisitions. It's strategy, whatever the heck that is. Well, I mean it's like when you don't have a job and you say you're a consultant. Okay. So you worked there as a business development guy? I did. So I was in the business development, which is a fancy way of saying I went around the country and tried to set up relationships with entities, individuals, corporations, um, to distribute our product through a third. Basically they're a white label. In other words, private label. The product and product basically has their own or large administrative groups that resell a product to their organizations. So we were doing that traveling, I dunno, 30 weeks a year I would get calls, like on a Sunday afternoon, my boss would say, Hey, I need you to be on a plane. And I'd be like, where am I going? Just go to Boston when you get there, call me and I'll let you know what you're doing. And that was a pretty dysfunctional way to run the business. The challenge with that business was the guy who ran it. I think it was a great sales guy, but I think when you get to this scale that he was trying to get, he could tell a really good story, really great sales guy, greater raising money. But I think the problem was it was, it was dysfunctional on so many levels. He was hiring a lot of his friends. So that's a little bit of a challenge. Like you, uh, yeah. Uh, no, I mean that, that's your friend, right? Yeah, yeah. Shoot the air right through the heart. Because your skill set at this time. Well, I scream business development. Oh, for sure. For sure. Right. So I think, and then I think the other thing is the, when you have a product and we delivered it over the infrastructure of our competitor, that's pretty interesting, right? So I'm going to sell a product, it's over the law. Basically, I'm selling a product to over the competitor, right. And the competitors infrastructure. And so they're not exactly willing to help you be successful at it. Uh, and I think he was trying to do a nationwide footprint, which is really hard to do right out of the gate, especially with that infrastructure set up. So, okay. Anyway, long story short, we end up going public in 99. I ended up lesion leaving shortly thereafter and then a couple of years later the company got delisted and pretty much went out of business. I wanted to move back. Cincinnati raised my kids at the time when I got, you know, I had gotten married, my dad was my best man and he's still my best friend, a great guy. I ended up, uh, you know, ended up going to see him after some interviews with larger corporations. And I said to him, Hey, you know, I'd like to do something with you. Uh, I don't care if what we do. He said, well, I'm still doing this thing called Apollo. You should, you know, if you want to join them, be happy to get you interviewed. So we, I interviewed with some of his folks and we ended up, and at this time, just give me some perspective. Apollo, this is 2002. Apollo is probably, um, gosh, I don't know, two and a half million bucks. Okay. Small, 25 people making that time. No, that's not a, yeah, I mean insignificant business, but it certainly wasn't this booming get it, you know? I mean it was, and I was coming from a much different environment, so we ended up working out the details. I remember in the end, I remember like talking to them, I'm like, well, so what's a draw against commissions? And he said, he said, well, basically I'm going to loan you$500 a week and at the end of the end of the month, the form week, month, you're going to pay me back through the sales. You made. So I got hired on as a hundred percent commission sales guy. When I went back to talk to my wife about it, uh, at the time I remember her seeing so excited and how so like so excited. And so like I would say, um, secure and how successful I was going to be at sales for residential heating, air shooting. But she ran out and got a job. She, you know, she, she was, it's called hedging pretty much hit you hard. You know, we had bought a house in Cincinnati on one of those three, one mortgages. Um, I was driving a car at the time that wouldn't always start. I mean it was, you know, this thing in Tampa when you say, hey, I worked for a company that went public. Every puts these like big dollar signs and they're like, oh, you made a ton of money. Not so that's not really how that one worked. Cause their thing called a holding period, right? Yes. He had some stock that was yeah. With a lot way you couldn't sell it. That's correct. Yeah. And when you could sell it, it wasn't worth anything. Yeah. Yeah. So we, so we moved back since I remember driving to Cincinnati. Um, and right as I started with Apollo, well guess what? My wife's pregnant. Oh, this is great. So now you've got a pregnant wife. I've got two dogs. I've got, I've got a house and that's all great. And uh, and I got a job, which is fantastic. The problem is for me jump coming into Apollo. What I always remember back is that Apollo was a tough place to start because it was my dad's company and we didn't have any family that had ever worked there. My Dad. Um, so I really felt like, um, the epiphany I had when I walked in the door is it, you know, I came in from a culture that was a startup culture. It was fast moving, you know, it wasn't so sort of stringent in how I guess we ran that business or were part of that business. But there were definitely right rhythms and rituals to Apollo. And I was not, I would say welcomed to say least. I was sure. Son of the boss, you know, Sop and lucky club and all that stuff. Yeah, yeah. The Prodigal son returns, right? Yeah. I mean, I, I remember six weeks in to work in for my dad. I remember going into his office and trying to quit. I was like really, really unhappy. I was very frustrated. They couldn't figure out where it's selling or because you just weren't accepted. She goes, he says it wasn't accepted. It was like, you know, I could go out and sell. I mean, the first year I worked there, you know, I sold seven figures, so it wasn't, I didn't have an issue, um, with the discipline of how to be successful in a job. Like that wasn't my issue. My issue was culturally, I just didn't fit. Got It. Right. And so the rub always was when I would ask for help every week. Everybody was unhelpful. I supposed to put it that way. And that's polite. They wanted to see a fail. Well, I remember there was a woman who is still works for us today. Her name is Sherry. And Sherry's been there since 1996 long time. And Sherry said to me years ago is probably 10 years ago, um, you know, I don't know, I didn't tell you. She's like, I never told you this, but everybody thought we were going to go out of business. The day you showed up. She said, everybody's like, oh, we'd be out of business five years. Competence. You JB. That hurts though. It's like, I'm sort of loud. I was like, this is great. They think that because I'm not my father, I'm not as consistent in running the bid. They just figured that you were going to come in and ultimately correct a steering wheel and drive it right into the river. You know, and I've listened to myself as we talk about this. I mean, what, uh, like, you know, you come to a business and all of a sudden everyone's looking around and the culture of the business, you know, my dad didn't focus on culture. You know what, my dad focused on growing a business and making payroll. You know, my dad was not, um, like I think about what we focus on today and I looked back at what my dad focused on. You know, he was trying to fill the board every day, but he wasn't worried about like, how do you feel like, you know, you want to, you feel good about your work, cause your ergonomics rate in your office. You didn't say what's your mission and values, you know, his mission and vision and values were really simple. Make payroll. Yeah. That's mission, vision, values. Right? And so I think for him and that business, I mean, he was employing guys that he had known on and off his entire career and cities tax had been around them a long time. You know, we had PR, we had all kinds of cultural issues when I first showed up. And, but so, so, so, you know, the sales side was fine. What I realized when I walked in the door in 2002, uh, in the fall, I realized that the only way to really be successful in this business was going to be just to out work at. And I like to say it's fancier than that, but the epiphany I had was, I'm just going to work really hard. I'm going to outwork everybody. I'm going to outsell these sales guys because I think if I outsell them then that shows them that I, you know, it's the idea that if you're the fastest runner, there's an intimately, like a level of respect to being a fast runner and a group of runners. And for me, the thing with these guys is I knew that if I wanted to be respected, I was just going to have to work and outwork them and, and deliver more value in terms of what results I had. And so that's just what I did. That's so smart. You know what I mean? Cause it's,
Speaker 3:the reality is, I mean, you are, you're always going to be your dad's son and you didn't have to sell a lot to do that. And, uh, I would imagine there's a, there's an entitlement that might creep into some second generation in your case, third-generation mind of, well, I don't have to necessarily do all this. Maybe I, but you, you know, when I, what I just, what I'm gonna say is I think to be a good leader before you're a good leader, you have to be a good personal performer, whatever job you've had before you roll into a management role, before you roll into, you know, executive role. If you're a salesperson or a tech or a, you know, whatever, an office person, you know that you gotta be a good PR, you're not necessarily always be the best, but you gotta be consistently good. Cause otherwise you're, you know, you haven't earned it right. You don't earn the right to, to, to lead, in my opinion. So I think that that, that's a great example here of, of what you talked about. So you just put your head down and said, I'm going to be a great sales guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And that's, and that's all I'm going to be. I'm not going to worry about if what I'm going to be in five years or 10 years. I'm just going to go out and I'm no promises from, from your Father James, that you know, if, if you sell$1 million off, you could run this thing next year or anything like that. Nothing. Nothing like that. Is that fair? Okay. That's very fair. He's giving me a look of are you incredibly stupid. And you know, my father, I mean my dad is a gruff, no bullshit or Bologna kind of guy. It's okay. So what I would tell you is this. So I worked and I did that deal for, you know, five or six years. And I remember saying, you know, I would like to take over more responsibility formally cause you take over more responsibility informally in a business. And he said, well that's fine. He said, just find somebody to replace your revenue. I said, what do you mean? He's like, well for us to afford you to move into a management role, that's the, has a base or something or a salary to it. You're gonna have to replace your revenue. Yeah. Any, in other words, you're going to have to sell more than you're selling now. So I had to go out and find and build some sales guys who could actually deliver enough revenue to cover costs. And I was selling it at the same time. So when I finally got enough of that lift with adding some sales guys, um, I was able to move into some more of a management role. And at that time that was sort of a quasi di operational sales installation management deal. Um, but you know, when I showed up, we didn't have like a sales folder. We didn't have like, I mean the way we did leads, if somebody would write it down on a piece of paper and hand it to you and then the next one came in, they handed somebody. So we, so I really spent a lot of time creating all these processes and a lot of that I had joined an organization called EO, which is entrepreneurs' organization. And I had a group of guys I met with on a monthly basis and they had continuing learning programs. They went through. Um, I also, we started doing a succession planning process with my dad and oh three is when it started. And the idea was whether I'm going to buy the business or not or whether that's gonna work out, we should still understand the process of that. So we started doing some of that fast forward. So I'm being the sales guy, I've hired seals, guys, businesses starting to grow. Um, I think we probably really started seriously talking about buying the business from him and oh seven. Okay. And, um, and I was married at the time and that was great. And my kids were growing up. How old were you then? Uh, so I was born in 1973. So what does that 30 73 30 like 35, 34 35 or too young or too old? Yeah, no, and we were never really big on titles, you know. So as I'm looking to buy the business from my dad, part of what we worked on with him was, what do you want to do once I buy the business? Like what, what do you want to do? Like with your life? Like do you want to continue to work? And what about your father? Yeah, we spent a lot of time. And it's crazy cause when I hear people talk about these deals, they never talk about who they're buying the business from. They just talk about how to kind of affected them. And so I knew to make a successful sale that the transition of emotional equity from him to me was all that mattered because I knew that we would, you know, my dad being my best friend, I knew we would work the money out. Like that wasn't the issue. Um, and I had sage advice along the way. I mean one piece of advice I got from a guy, cause I would always talk to my dad about, hey, I'm buying the business but I don't think it should be included as part of your state. Right. And my dad's like, you know, I don't know about that. I think like, you know, I have an older sister and I'm like, well it's not really fair. I'm buying a business and I'm putting sweat equity and that should just be outside of your estate. And, and this guy looked at me, I've had this succession planning stuff. He said, well, you know, it's real simple Jamie. It ain't your money. So whatever you, whatever you to do is your call. Right? So that was kind of an epiphany because what it's kind of helped me understand is that it was, the business that I was buying was really, I was buying my dad's career from my dad. Right. And that's a pretty hard thing. I don't tell this story very often. So we're like coming down to the end, we've talked about it. I think he's in a good spot. He's decided to still engage with the business. We've created sort of what I'll call a title at this time. I've taken over the operations of the business in a two year period. We've, we've built an infrastructure, we've started to do strategic planning and Brian's some consultants to help build some teams together and management teams. So, so the business is starting to hum along. We're picking them out, expanding into trade, different trades at that time from heating and air. And that's Kinda that sort of Oh six to oh nine time period. And there was a lot of other good things going on in terms of just personal success I was having. And um, and it was a good time. I remember an oh nine sitting at the closing table with my dad. And so in this room and picture like a conference room where there's eight chairs of four chairs on each side and intuit the head and it's a raw kind of an oval style table. There's no windows, uh, in there and it's just, you know, it's the county's office and there's, you know, a couple lawyers in there, you know, there's the corporate guy and then there's a personal court, you know, personal attorney in there. There's some, um, CPAs and some, you know, s, you know, certified financial planner people in there. There's my mom, my dad, and myself and my wife, and we're getting ready to sign these papers. And this is a pretty simple thing to do. This is like the last, like couple things. And my dad just starts to cry and I'm like, I'm like, okay, did I like, cause I, this for me is like a huge, exciting moment, right? I'm like, I am buying a business. This is what I've always dreamed of, you know, really not always shouldn't say always room to do it, but this is like a major deal. Like I've been working for this for a number of years. Like I'm like, and I'm like, and I'm third generation and like I'm carrying the legacy of the family on. I get it for sure. Um, my dad ends up happening is, um, he starts crying and inn and I'm like, are you doing okay? He's like, he's like, yeah. He's like, I just don't know what the hell I'm going to do now. I said, well, wait a minute. What are you talking to? He's like, no, he's like, my entire life. This is all I've ever done. And now I have a choice. Yeah. So now I have a choice. So that was a hard, it was a hard thing. And then on the backside he signs a paper. Was it tears of joy or tears of fear? I think, I'd think it was a, it all fear. Um, amazement. Was it Grad intern? Was it, was it complement? Was it for him? I think it was really, I think he was generally like very, like, it was just like completely like fear and unknown and what am I going to do now? And um, you know, there a lot of thin times when I was growing up as a kid. Right. And so, you know, he had built a business, but more importantly he had built a life to control his own life. Like no one was telling me no one was his boss. Right. And I think that even when he worked for his dad, right, or he worked with his brother, it was always, he was working with somebody and somebody was always, N***a, he was always had to negotiate with what he wanted to do. Do you know what I mean? Like he could do and, and for the last 15 plus years, whatever, 89 to 2009, so the last 20 years he had really run the show. And I think all of the sudden it was like, the race is over. So I think it's like, okay, so now I don't have, I don't have to do this until, I think it was a relief. But I think it was really sad for him. And maybe identity issue almost. For sure. For sure. That's very intuitive. That's great. So then on what then the other things that are happening in this room at the same time as I'm sitting there and I'm like, maybe this is the wrong thing for us to do right now. Right. And in Oh nine, um, we felt too, there were some tax stuff with Obama, sorry. We thought like Obama, maybe it was gonna change some tax loss for 10. And so we did think strategically too on the tax side. It was smart to go ahead and get this done. But then I'm like, okay, no, we should just forge it. So we forge ahead. And I remember walking out of there and my dad sort of, you know, brings himself together, signs off. Um, and I don't really remember the most, I don't remember what we did that night, frankly at a, I don't, I don't think we went to dinner or anything. I think I went to work. I actually, or went home, I don't remember. But I remember getting in my car and thinking to myself whole, Oh my God. Like, oh my God. Like what have I done? Like, did I, should I really be buying this business? Like, oh my God, now all of a sudden it's real. I'm like, I'm like, shoot. And so I keep always saying to myself, well, just be careful what you wish for. And so the dog Jason the bus and caught the bus. Oh, to leak out a thing. Oh my God, it is. So it was a pretty challenging time for sure. A fascinating story. And I liked the, the, the, the reflection, you know, because you, you were so close to the person you bought the business, um, you now only had the perspective of your own as though as the buyer, but the perspective of the seller, for sure. For sure. Right. Yeah, that's fascinating. It's been a good run. Yeah. Talk about, um, if I could, so that, so congratulations. You bought two businesses, 2009. This, give people a snapshot just really quick where the business is today. Then I'm going to back up a little bit. So just tell us about Apollo home right now, right, because the name has changed. It's Apollo home now. It is. So, uh, so today we are 100% residential focused. We do heating, air conditioning, plumbing, electric, uh, handyman services, sewer, sewer restoration. Um, a big part of the business is, um, our internal training platform. We call it Apollo University, which isn't unique, but what is unique is that we have a full apprenticeship program where we develop our own guys and I call it cradle to grave. So the reality, we're trying to create pathway for guys to really come in as really infants in their career and then stay with us all the way through, whether it's through leadership training or whatever. We've won the best place to work six the last seven years. Um, we've won a lot of awards and most importantly is that we continue, in my opinion, got really clear on who we were and who we weren't. Um, and in terms of just overall growth, I mean, we've, our, this let's, I want to come back to that. I'm sorry. Finish that. I'm going to come back to what you just said about who we are and who we aren't. Yeah. So overall growth in me, and I, I can tell you this is, I feel like I've worked my entire career for what's happened in the last 12 to 24 months. Like we've, we fight, it's like having like spending your entire career hoping to put together the winning team on the field. And right now we're that winning team. So, you know, when I look around, like we have high, really high, um, high retention. So we're in that 90% and retention rate. And 10 years ago we were always, that's high. Well, this industry though, it is high now. It's early in the year, Jack. So this is not analyzed okay. After January. But, but, uh, but when we look at it, you know, the reality is, um, you know, we've been as high as 70% turnover too. So we got real clear and intentional. So I, you know, in a nutshell, the business got very intentional on sort of the business we've put together a really great people, really good team, and I feel pretty strongly about the results that we're seeing today. So that's great. It's good. Congratulations. Thanks.
Speaker 3:So let's, let's, let's talk about from Oh nine to 19. So it's been 10 years. Jamie said both hands on the wheel. Are you the sole owner of the business? Okay. Um, so let's talk about what, what you would consider to be some of these, I call them inflection points. These points in this last 10 years were, were either through some trial or some mistakes or, uh, through some discovery that, that something significant happened. And I, that's a big broad and giving you 10 years. I'm giving you that big, broad thing that right. I heard this, who we are and who we aren't. I don't want to lead you, but, but uh, what's, what's one that you would share?
Speaker 2:Sure. So, uh, as part of that tenure process, I was, I was, I would say I'm a pretty thirsty learner, so I would go around and I would try to go to as many conferences or things that I, where I could learn as much as I could. Yeah. I read a ton of books. I listened to a ton of books. I just, and I would go meet anybody who I thought was really valuable. I think what I would say or where I would focus is around people. Right. So 2010, 2009 maybe. So right after you bought the business. Yeah, I went to MIT to an executive master's program was three years long. Three Yo. Uh, and there was a guy that gave a speech, um, from a company called the nurse next door in Vancouver and he talked about this story. So he had been on the road and on the road selling franchises. Basically he had a little mini pink car. So you couldn't miss him pulling into the parking garage. Hadn't been there for three weeks, saw this woman walking to, uh, to their office that worked for him, waived. She didn't even acknowledge his wave and, and started to briskly walk the other way, gets in there and all of a sudden he looks around and realizes like, this is like the worst culture ever. His own business, his own business. And he goes into a total freak out, grabs his partner, goes to Denny, and for the next three hours they talked about the why. So from that moment, what I got really clear about was we, I didn't really know what the, why the business was like, and I'm very clear on what that is today. So where we've evolved to is that our business is really a training business, a marketing business, and a logistics company. That's really what we are. And when we talk about a training company, my job is to find people who are what I call diamonds in the rough, who don't have the skill sets, but have the aptitude to want to learn and grow. And they need somebody to help focus that energy and grow. So to me, what we got clear on was all the people, but it took a long time. I mean, it took a decade, defined all the rates of this, this, this awareness hits you and late nine or 10. Yep. And it took you 10 years, if you will, to kind of figure out what that meant. Oh God. Shit. How that looked. Yeah. I mean it took, and here's what I would say. It's not a, but we're still doing it. In other words, it's, it's this continuous fluid process. Like, you know, as my personal life cycle aligned with my business life cycle, you know, I was growing as a person and my business was growing and my, and when I'm saying is that I needed to make a platform where there was a communal understanding, what were our values and more importantly, like did the actually see them working in the business? Right. So we created actionable values, values that, um, and we've gone from one words to phrases, back to one words. There's the evolution. So kaizen, continuous improvement. Okay, good. Yeah. Because, so when I think about, and that's the one in the, and this is where as Kaizen, the word continuous improvement, I use kaizen. Okay. All right. Right. Um, you know, integrity, do what's right even when somebody is not looking. So you define that then. So you don't want to say integrity is they do what's right even when on top looking. Yes. Let's pause there for a second. Talk about that. The reason I do that is we had a f we had a value one time. Okay. And this, we took that, we had six values when we started. Okay. And the word was family. Okay. Now, and I thought that was really an easy word to understand. Why wouldn't you? You loved your father, your parents, your families. I mean just, but, but the problem was is somebody said to me, well, I need to do today and it's about my family and that's one of our values. And I so they leverage, denies did, correct. Oh Wow. So what I learned was, is that it's, it's, you have to be really intentional. Okay. Um, you know, I think the, the other thing is, is that when I say we got really clear on who we were and who we weren't, what we got clear about was who we wanted to be with and who we didn't. So one of the other, um, core values that we don't publish, it's the no assholes. Okay? You just said this on a podcast. So that was publishing, sorry, sorry, your picture on the Internet forever. Well, it's okay, but uh, we, and I don't mean to use that language, but okay. But what that means really is it's for us, it's about team. And I want to drive fast to work and slow home and I want all my employees to do the same. That's cool way to put it. And I stole that from somebody else, right? We had a board member who said to me, if you want to know, if you have great culture, how fast people want to get to work, you know, and so we followed this mantra around what I'll say, common sense reality. You know, first thing that when we started down this road right after we got values, so that was the phrase I always like to use is would you want to work for you? So, so when I'm making decisions a lot with the business today, the first thing I'm thinking about is, okay, what I want to work here, if I made that decision like is that, and sometimes you have to make decisions for our business that, that structurally are hard to make. Great. I mean costs are costs and these kinds of things. But the million dollar question, when I hear everybody complain about they can't find anybody, the first thing I want to ask is what would you want to work for you? Yeah. And that's a hard question. It is because it's not fun to listen. It's not fun to think about. No, I'm sitting here getting stomach acid thinking about that myself. So, so, and then, um, so here we are, you know, I've, in that 10 year period, just to give you kind of some fun facts, right? Um, I've got, I went through a full, probably one and a half management teams. I, I couldn't, you know, I thought I had the right guys in place and then all of a sudden it comes, it comes very clearly like that. They're not the right people. I found one guy who started to become a, what I'll say that the rock of Gibraltar, like he was the stone that I could put other stones around. So he was kind of a kind of a, what I'll say a, um, you know, he was just a foundational rock for us and he's still there today. And then we started looking for people to build around him and, and myself. And it took a long time. Yeah. Um, you know, just I think last November we got the final piece of our team in place. And you know, you say to yourself, well, God, how can I take that long? Well, there's a lot of interesting things that happen along the way, you know? And I think, um, I think the other thing is we are in a place now where, because we're growing and we're, we're buying a new corporate headquarters, you know, where we're going from six thousand seven thousand square feet to 30,000 square feet. We're buying a truck every two weeks right now. You know, that all takes cash. And so I, I said to a guy on my management team and who's we follow eos or integrator? And I looked at him and I said, you know, hey Dan, he said, you're doing okay. I said, you know, I've noticed you've been a little off last last couple of weeks. He's like, oh no, I'm, I'm good man. I said, well, that's good because I'm making bets that I can pay for. So if we could just assure me that you are on the same team all the time, and maybe that's too much to share publicly. But one of the things is I knew if we wanted to grow people or really what mattered. Yeah. The products, the services, the problems, they're always going to be there. But I knew that if you had the right people and it, and it was the same with thing in rowing. I mean I was, we had a really successful rowing team because we had a great team of people who really knew how to work together to be successful. And I always say this too, I gave a speech the other day to the entire company and I said, when it, when it looks like, smells like and feels like a winning team, it is. And I think so many times as leaders, we forget to pause and actually look around at what was created and be thankful and have gratitude. And, and I can tell you that early on in my career I was aggressive and not angry, but like angry. Like you're just aggressive and angry. You're like, I'm gonna run you over man. And now I'm like, you know, I don't have to run you over. I just have to run faster than you. So when the bear gets you, it doesn't get me first. Right. And it's, and that's from a competition standpoint. But anyway, that was a bad comparison. No, I get it totally. I get this maturation of yourself, right? Yeah. A little bit. A little bit. Um, so you talked about this, this moment and hearing this story in early 2010 and Ah, kind of this journey of building a team and, and uh, yeah, it's humbling, right? You know, we, um, you know, I, my business probably can run well it can, I have a great group of guys and gals that work there and so I'm blessed with the fact that I can sit here with you today and not worry about what's happening at Apollo. But what it also means is that I can't take that for granted either. Tell me more. Well, you know, a lot of people I know talk about wanting to be a passive investor and what I would tell you is in terms of passive investment is that our business is, in my opinion, are a daily investment. I mean, it's a daily deal. Everyday we do a daily huddle, right? You got to fill the board every day. I think that these kinds of businesses are what I call high touch businesses. You know, they take[inaudible] is good. You are so right. Whoa, you're so right. I'll give you an example, right? The reason our culture is so great is because we work on it every single day, every day, and every day I walk around and I make it a point to talk to somebody about something about their kids or about their family. And I don't really want to talk about work. We, I mean, I'll talk about where you're doing as a school, but I think sometimes, um, we truly missed this opportunity to realize when you walk around this office, you carry a pretty big stack and you should respect it and not abuse it. A lot of guys I know don't realize how, if you know, remember when you made like, I don't know, a call center person, you know, and then the CEO walks over and says, what are you doing? I mean, that's not really a comfortable moment, right? So you have to train your organization to be able to accept that it's a comfortable one. One because you're coming over to like applaud people. Like thanks for the hard work. This is awesome. You're doing a great job. Yeah. I think random acts of kindness are a big deal.
Speaker 3:Well you talked about this, this, this high touch business and
Speaker 4:okay,
Speaker 3:it, it, it, you know, the art industry is, uh, it's a daily receipts business. You basically started with day with zero backlog, right? And so unlike a lot of companies, you know, where they, you know, the next one is one of them, right? We have members, they send us dues every month. It's like, Nah, I don't have to drive next RV day. Like, like you do. And to think that you can have a business where you're passive or sitting on a Hammock, that's an imagery that's been used sometimes in our industry. And I think it's just ridiculous. I think it's, it's a who would want to work for somebody who says, you work hard so I can sit on a hammock. I mean, that's just countering
Speaker 2:to live. And I, I mean in truthfully, I've never read this book, this four hour Workweek, I've never read the book. And I'm sure it's a great book, but the title of four hour work week, I, I don't know about you, but I grow, I grew up, this is, this is what I grew up to do. I grew, I'm a worker. Like I grew up in a business and a family that we, my dad worked six days a week as long as I can remember. And I work six days a week, you know, I'm at the office Monday through Friday. I go in on Saturdays, crank it up now, work half to half to three quarters of day on a Saturday. But, but the dealer is like, it's like I use a Saturday, get ready for more ready for Monday. Yeah. Right. And I think one of the things that I think most about lately I think about, I thought I'm actually infatuated with this. When I go to a Nexstar meeting, I look around the room and I look at all the co, all the, all the contractors look at all the members and they say to myself, what is the difference between this guy or that guy? And when, and of course I'm comparing like how did he get, you know, sizeably larger than salary guy. And I don't know exactly the right answer, but lately I've been thinking a lot about is it about creating or executing? And where I'm sort of in my evolutionary path today is I think it's really about executing. And I think that we expand in my company a lot of time trying to create where we should have spent a lot of time just executing. You know? And my dad always said it the best, there's the think and the do and he said if you spend enough time in the thing stage, the do stage is really easy. I think we're in the deuce stage right now. Um, I, I don't think as an organization innovation is a bad thing, but I think that can be looked at and valued sometimes incorrectly. At the end of the day, you might have the greatest product or service in the world, but you still gotta sell it. You still got to execute it. So where we are today, I think when I think about this idea about evolution and growth and we're just about let's go execute it, let's go get it done. And I'm not sure exactly what that means every day, but what I know is that we need to have forward movement. We need to do a great job for our employees, a great job for our customers and stop thinking so much. Just follow the process. Right? Cause when I look around the room at these meetings, what I see is guys that could really execute.
Speaker 3:They're good though. The ones that are really killing it are the guys that, that's so cool. Yeah, it's so true. So true. Especially, you know, and, and, and you know, I would imagine you mentioned, and I'm, oh, I'm going to leave on that thought cause that's really good. And if I could make sure this idea of primacy and recency, you know, I want people to walk out of here. That's not so much about the think it's about to do, especially today in this industry where the thinking has been done, meaning that, you know, you don't have to recreate you. You mentioned you didn't have a sales folder, so you had to create this stuff and you had to do all these process you had to. But today with the companies like next starts there, right there. There's so much less thinking, if that makes sense. Well, yeah, I mean if you think about this, okay, here's the really scary part. What were the barriers for growth and multiple branch locations in a businesses like ours? There was, it was pretty simple. In my opinion. It was technology because you had, you know, you have a shared service model. Well now you have technology that allows you to basically run a call in the same platform anywhere in the country or the world. Really, if you thought about the platform, um, you know, training well, okay, training programs are out there. We can do them, we can create people. Okay. So what's the only other thing that would hold you back from growing probably yourself covered leadership. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Right. So to me it's like I think it's not the thing. I think it's the do and let's go execute. Now granted that's really simple to sit here in an office looking at a beautiful, you know, beautiful. Some morning Chris, beautiful out, but it's not supposed to be easy and it's not supposed to be fun all the time. No, you know it's worked for a reason, but I think if you embrace it and really focus on the fact that like your, you're always trying to move the ball forward. Even if it's an inch today. Yeah, it's a win, man. It is. It's a win. Jamie, you have got to get into a class. I did. I have enjoyed the heck out of this. Thank you. This is very thoughtful. I'd love your journey. I love the reflection. I mean there's so many lessons that I've pulled out of this that I'm sure our listeners will post. So thank you for spending time with us today. Definitely have a great day. Jack Craig. So much and thank you all for listening to this episode. Leadership Lounge. Remember. It's not the think so much as it.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna leave you with that cause it's so true. Thank you so much. We'll catch you next time.