Leadership Lounge with Jack Tester
Leadership Lounge with Jack Tester
Picking Up On Phoniness, With Joe Navarro
Jack talks with former FBI agent, body language expert, and best-selling author Joe Navarro. Joe tells the story of arriving in the United States as a refugee during the Cuban missile crisis, and not knowing English. It formed his fascination with understanding people by reading body language. The two talk about the importance of body language for home service technicians, who are constantly meeting and greeting strangers.
Hi, this Jack Tester and welcome to another edition of Leadership Lounge. I am in Seattle. I've stepped out of our meeting here. We have a leadership spotlight going on and I'm sitting across table from Joan Navarro. How you doing
Speaker 2:Joe? Um, well good to be here with you jack.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we've got you coming in here to talk to us tomorrow. And, uh, we picked you as a speaker for us because of your expertise in nonverbal communication. In fact for 25 years. I want to talk about you so people know why you're talking to me. All right. Is that a, you were an FBI agent specializing in behavioral assessment, is that right? That's correct. And did you even, I've heard of it, heard the term use that you were kind of a spy catcher, is that right? Well, yeah, I mean,
Speaker 2:most of my career in the FBI, I was assigned to do work in the national security division, which was primarily because the bureau's divided into the criminal side and the national security side, which is counterintelligence. So primarily my work was working counterintelligence as a spy catcher. So our targets were, um, at the time, the Soviet Union, later Russia, um, east Germany, um, all the, uh, block countries, Cuba and, and so forth. And um, Eh, you know, that kept us busy even after the wall came down. So that was primarily the, the work that I did. And then on the behavioral side, um, for whatever the reason, I was one of six agents selected out of 12,000 to head up the, uh, the national security behavioral program and sounds, I got kind of a weird feeling when you said that it sounded, what does that mean? Well, that's what everybody asks. Even in the bureau, a little frightened. Well, the, the thing is in counterintelligence because the work that spies do is so subtle. It's not overt. It's not like a bank robber that goes in and, you know, drives up in a car and there's a getaway car and there's a weapon. Espionage is about influence, it's about recruiting people and so forth. And so our job was to, my job in particular because of my expertise with nonverbals was to look at the behavior and say, is this guy, let's say he's assigned to the United Nations, is he up to no good. By watching them, by observing him, you'd partially watching because the bureau only has so many resources and when you have x amount individual stationed here, we have to be selective who are we going to target? So that will put surveillance on him or um, determine what they're up to. And we based a lot of that on their background, their training. Um, but, but some of it with the, uh, with their body language. Yes, no kidding. Well, let's, I want to come back to that because that was an interesting step off point and just so people also know, you've written some books as well, three minutes to dooms day, which is a, for a potential movie, as I understand it, one of the six best business books according to Wall Street Journal, the year it was released. Is that right? So, well thanks for bringing that up. So three minutes to dooms day. It was a, about a real espionage case. It was the, um, the most damaging espionage case in American history because it dealt with the, the stealing of our nuclear go codes. And we had never had that happen before or then. And, um, and yeah, so I wrote the book, George Clooney bought the rights to it, and then the other book harder than words is the one, there's the business book. So, um, I had been invited to Harvard University, um, for, I guess the last 10 years, Brian Hall, um, was, uh, there at Harvard. He was fascinated with nonverbals, uh, and um, and listen to, to me a lecture. And he said, you know, you really ought to put these things down, but oriented towards business. And so I wrote, um, louder than words, which is now in, uh, 19 languages. And, um, I forgot it for a nonverbal book, isn't it? Well, you know, it delves that one dealt more with the best practices, which is, you know, when we talk about nonverbals, it's everything that communicates, but is not a word. So why does the, why does a gas station that has brighter lights but higher prices attract more people than a place that has lower prices but uh, is not as well lit. And uh, so it, it really talks about, uh, the kinds of things that, uh, would, would be interesting too to a business. And then, you know, the, the, the, the one that's the best seller is, um, what everybody is saying and that one is in 29 languages. And um, and I think I just heard the other day that um, it's in its 21st printing or spoke. Congratulations. Thank you. That's fantastic. Let's go, let's come. We'll come back some of this because I want to understand how you got to where you got, I wanted to, you know, where did it, where did you start to get interested in, in this whole study? Well, you know, it's, uh, I'm glad you've asked that because for me, the, that is, it's a story is how I got to this because this was all unintentional. I mean, it really, it really was. I never, I never sought to write, I never saw myself as somebody that was a, would be out lecturing. Um, and you know, now I'm averaging about 40 events per year and I think part of it has to do with, you know, we all have that story that begins, um, either in our youth or it begins for me. I was born in Cuba. I came to the United States as a refugee during the Cuban missile crises. Wow. Okay. So I came here, uh, I didn't speak English, I was, uh, uh, eight years old and, and so for me there was just something about, uh, being able to look at people and I was right more reliant on their body language as a non speaker. Oh, not an English speaker. And My mother always said I was, I was sensitive to that. But, but you know, I mean, I, you know, you, you quickly become Americanized. I mean, I, a lot of people that were born in another country that don't do what you do. I know that come to America. I know and I didn't, and I wasn't going to be a body language expert. I, I was playing football, I was playing basketball, I was having a great time. I, um, you know, but this sort of, uh, this sort of stayed with me and, um, and certainly over the years, once I got to the university, there was just something about it that as I met people and so forth, I, I could sort of intuit what, uh, what was on their minds. And, uh, not in a mystical way, but just, you know, they're having a good time or, or they're not. But the thing that I'm, that really kicked it off for me was once I was in the FBI, it was such a revelation because, you know, you have this imagery of what you see on television and you realize that, um, number one, there's, it's mostly paperwork, but number two is really Europe paid observer. You are, you are being paid to observe. And the best agents bar none were the ones that very clever at observing. They could, they could look at a street scene and they could tell you, okay, those guys are casing that bank. And they just had this ability to pick up on the nuances and, and, you know, and you'd ask him about how do you, how do you know this isn't something you trained? Is it just something that these guys picked? They just, they just picked up and you say, because they're whispering to each other and they're in the middle of the street. Why would you whisper to somebody, uh, on a, on a, on a street corner? In that case, we're looking for something that's out of place. Is that just something that's, that's different or, uh, or odd? Um, and then I just began on my own to, uh, to, to study it. You know, before we got started, you asked me how, how do, how did all this begin? I, and I, I have to tell you, I think it began that day. I graduated from college. I remember that that day I headed, uh, I headed to the, um, to the public library and Provo, Utah. And I went and got me a, um, uh, a card so that I could check out books. And then I told myself, now I'm going to read what I want to read or really, and uh, I think that's, that's really what began my, my education because I had studied criminology and later I studied international relations for my masters. But what I really wanted to study was anthropology and the, the kind of the subjects in psychology that I enjoyed. And, um, and I, I do a lot of Skype sessions now with a high schoolers and, and, and even younger all over the world, Korea, Europe, and, uh, and I tell them, you know, you will have to read those things that are required of you, but boy, that day you have the freedom to go and pick whatever book you want. Cherish that because, uh, so what did you pick? So you picked anthropologists? So, so the first one I went out, um, and, and got, um, was a book by a Mala ski where he was talking about the troll brand island is in the Pacific. And here's the guy who hasn't read that well. Yeah, here's the, but here's the, but here's the thing is it was one of the few books that hadn't been checked out. So I just start looking at it and here's a guy who accidentally gets trapped in the Pacific islands during the first world war, and he begins to write about what he sees on these islands, the rituals, the, uh, you know, how children are brought up. And that just began to broaden my, uh, my experiences. And you say, well, you know, what, what's the utility of that? And, and I have to tell you, it just frees you up to the, to then see things. I had a, a spy case years later and, um, I made the case because I had made one observation why I was in eastern Europe. And while I'm watching the sky, um, here in, uh, um, in the United State, he leaves a, um, a flower shop, uh, and it was just an accident that it was on Valentine's Day. And as he's leaving, he is carrying the bouquet of flowers, not like Americans do, but as east Europeans carry them, which is the bouquet is down so that the water flows from the stock towards the flowers. And I had only seen that in eastern Europe. And so when I confronted him, I did a presumptive, what we call a presumptive. I didn't ask him if he was a spire or not. I just sat him down and I said, do you want to know how I know? And I said, it was a flowers, how you carried the flowers. And he just closed his eyes. And he is like, okay, you got mad. And then, and then he, and then he came to work for us. So he was sent here as an illegal like that show the Americans, he was sent here as what we call a intelligence illegal to hide in America. I'm not doing anything until hostilities break out. I, I always thought that was Holcomb. No, it's not. Oh No, no, no. I mean they have, uh, they have, um, uh, explosive, uh, satchels buried in different places. And, um, you have to remember the, especially satchels buried. What's that? Who has explosive satchels buried in the day? No, I can't say too much. You have to remember, especially with Russia, no one listens to this. Go ahead. Well, no, you got to remember like with Russia, they're thing was that if hostilities broke out, they needed redundancy. They needed to be able to take care of things in the United States. Um, and so they would send people over and become Americanized. And if hostilities broke out, they then, uh, were to retrieve the satchels and blow up a trains that would be shipping. For instance, there's only one train line that goes to homestead, air force base, anything dealing with South America that would have to be taken out. And um, it, you don't, oh yeah, it's, yeah, this isn't hokum this is, um, yeah, this is the serious stuff. And so the, there a role was to lay low, so they said, so they, so they send people over and does this Skype. So I get the picture right. And he usually living in a life, well, he's, he has a job. He said nothing. Uh, uh, you know, nothing unusual. Um, and, uh, a really good cover. He had lived in Canada before and, uh, the, um, but his thing was that once a year he had to do what's called a sign of life check. And this movie, sorry, sign up in the plumbing industry. But yeah, but, so that means he comes up and says, I'm still out here getting well, but he, you know, here's the thing is, you know, you talk about the plumbing industry as, um, there were some that were directed to, um, get involved in the construction business because then they could target, uh, the infrastructure of, uh, of certain buildings under construction. So I start interviewing you. I swear this whole week we've had people of influence. We've had this mentalist. Now I got, and I'm, I'm, I'm feeling like I'm exposed. I feel inadequate with you guys. But that's fast. So, so you just, you, this is your, your power of observation. So you've been reading books about different cultures and you, and you observe some things and how people lived in eastern Europe. And then you saw this guy acting eastern European and the streets of wherever you were. Right. So, but it goes to show you that we, we, we sometimes think we're planning our own trajectory and, and we're not, I think the greatest attribute I had, and I share this with students is that I was open to whatever came my way. I wasn't sad. Okay. And B, I remember working with some agents that said on, no, I just want to work criminal matters. I just want to work bank robberies. And I, I worked whatever was, was offered to me and I studied and read whatever was, was open to me. Um, because I was just, I was just curious and at, and I assure you at no time in my early career working counterintelligence that I think I would be lecturing all over the world or are writing books. I, for all of us in whatever profession we have, I think one of the great things that we learned from their renascence period was how curiosity, um, tends to reward us. It tends to reward us immediately, but it tends to reward us in the future. I mean, Leonardo Da Vinci was, was looking at mechanical devices one day. He's the first one to discover where, what our theories or arterial sclerosis is. And the next day he has literally a note asking what happens to the tongue of the, uh, of, uh, of the bird, the, uh, the woodpecker a when it's retrieved. You know, here's this wonderful curiosity, this ability to observe. And as it turns out, it, it's, it, it goes up and, and protects the brain during the impact. But, but, but here was a guy, I didn't know where this would go. No, no proof of it, Joel. No one knew. But, but that's, that's the kind of thing that, uh, that, that fascinated me. And, uh, and, and look, you know, look at your own organization, look at the speakers you've, you've had, Jack, you can't tell me that you're not a curious person. Just the questions that, that you, you've asked your, your, your speakers and, and, and, and other gas. This is both a learning experience, but it's also a growing experience. And, and I think we just all do well when we can lend ourselves to that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, so the, the, the thread we were going on there, it's kind of how you, you know, kind of got from being a college student to, to, to being in the FBI. Right. And then having some interest and, and so did, did, did you start to focus on this nonverbal? Does that, where this distance something that you did in addition to other things and, and you know, and I guess what I'm interested in is, is how did you become an expert in this? Because you are a curious guy. He read books about some island, I can't remember what it was. Right. And you know, you, you pronounced renaissance very different. So you know, you really know a lot and woodpeckers. Right. How'd you become the specialist now in non for why that I guess is what I'm saying. Well Jack, cause I'm a nod
Speaker 2:doc. Every, all my friends would tell you Joe, you know, I mean I love sports. I was into sports and stuff. Uh, I, you know, I, yeah, but, but I've always just been, been been curious, you know, I, you know, well, you know, I didn't even intend to go into the, um, they came in and, uh, and recruited me and, um, and so I end up in the FBI. I ended up in Yuma, Arizona working crimes on Indian reservations for three years doing homicides and so forth. And I assure you a, I wasn't focusing on, on, on nonverbals, but once I started working counterintelligence, then the, the, the, the drive was too, you know, how do we, we determine what their they're up to and it just turned, it just happened that I had been in Yuma, Arizona when there was a kidnapping of a child and, um, these guys were so dumb. They just picked, well because they picked the first child they saw, and this kind of, you know, I don't want to say it was a ritzy neighborhood, but it was a neighborhood that had a golf course there. And, uh, so they plucked this child off the street not realizing that he actually comes from a poor neighborhood. He was just bicycling through here. So they, they took him out to, um, uh, to their hiding place. And this was a time before cell phones. And so they w w came into town, made a phone call to the child's mother. This is like a ransom and for, for ransom wearable. So we immediately got called, she was smart. She said, look, you know, my husband's not here, I don't have a handle any money. Yeah. The, so they called the FBI and we immediately jumped on it. And um, and uh, actually it was kind of interesting because how do you investigate a case like that? We flew in enough agents that we were within 30 seconds of every pay phone in Yuma, Arizona. Within three hours we had enough agents on the ground to be within 30 seconds we went to at and t and we said, identify for us every pay phone that you have. And we flew in and enough agents so that we could be within 30 seconds. So the next time they came in, we were able to observe them and, but we didn't know where the child was. And so we were observing them. And to make a long story short on the second call, their body language changed. Um, they were, there was more facial rubbing, there was a lot more pacing and so forth. And I was just a young agent, but I said to the supervisor, I said, I, I think they're going to kill this child now. Things have changed. Oh No. And he looked at me like, well, what do you know? You, you've only got two years in the bureau. And I, and I said, well, that's just the impression I got. But he listened to me. We ended up taking them down. We found the child, we rescued him. Fortunately, he was being held by a third person, but the word got out that, um, I was pretty good with the body language. And, um, and so somewhere along the line, um, one day I get a phone call and, um, and they said, uh, re report to Washington and, um, don't tell anybody that you know what you're doing. Just come up here. And, and that was it. And then I was involved in the behavioral program after that.
Speaker 1:Oh, no kidding. So I'll start from that one. That one case. Yeah. Okay. So what is the, so what were some of the, you know, it's, you think back to I was, I like to talk to about like breakthroughs are these times where it really became clear whether it was this moment of clarity, whether it was, you know, five years in or 20 years in or, or, or what are you just like something clicked? Does it, it, was there ever a moment like that where you just really became confident or really observed something unique that that was kind of a breakthrough for you?
Speaker 2:I think it's, it's kind of an odd breakthrough point. The, the breakthrough point came, um, after I had retired and, um, and somebody, um, somebody had said, you know, why you, what's a good book on body language? And I said, you know, I've read almost every book that is out there on body language. And I said, I didn't like the way any of them taught it because body language is mostly written either from the psychologist's standpoint. Paul Ekman, um, Judy Burgh goon, Mark Frank, these famous authors, or it's written from the anthropologist standpoint, David Givens, uh, Joe Coulis, uh, uh, other people. And I said, but nobody has brought it all together and taught it in a or, or written about it in a way that's easy to understand. And I said, um, I'd like to write one in the way that I wish I had been taught body language, which is to really simplify it because we humans are really very binary. We're either comfortable or uncomfortable, were either confident or lacking confidence and we reflect that, uh, the minute we're born and a, and we had to, it had to be simple. It had to be binary so that our species could, could take care of itself. And uh, and so that's why I set out to, to write what everybody is saying as though I was teaching myself for the first time. And I think that was a breakthrough moment for me that I couldn't find what I wanted out there. And I think that's what's resonated with, um, with audiences because it, after 10 years, it's still the number one body language book in the world. It's the number one body language book in China. It's, you know, it was just something that was totally unexpected, but it was the absence of something like that, that, that really propelled me. That was that what for me was a breakthrough and, and to have the, the license, because at that point I'd already been reading this stuff. I had already been keeping notebooks on body language for 25 years, 30 years. And I think it was at that point were where it was. Okay, now you're ready. Now you're ready. I couldn't have done a 10 years right here. Right. It was, it came at the right point. It was the, the, the bringing together of, now I have the confidence, the observations, the, uh, all of that. But it was sort of this license to take
Speaker 1:because nobody else had taken it. Got It. Got It. Very good question for you. You know, oftentimes we, you know, we're talking about this conference here and, and you know, we're trying to teach, um, body language and we're trying to help people. And oftentimes I think we teach it from an observational science side. So meaning that I as a salesperson or as a manager can, I think a lot of this is probably an unconscious competence for some people. They can just kind of see what they're, when they're binary there, they're happy, they're not. And I'm sure there's things that the tell that you know, and I'm not an expert at this, I even amateur. But anyway, this idea, see Ken in your learning, did you learn how to, how to alter your own body language or how to be aware? Because I don't know that we're always aware. Yeah. At least I don't know that I am.
Speaker 2:No, I, I don't think that's a, that's a fantastic question because I don't think most of the time we are aware, the only time we, I think we're really aware of like if we go for a job interview and we're preening ourselves, right. And, uh, you know, making sure that our lives aren't too dry, but for the most part, we don't really think about that. But I, I, you know, I think the first time I did, but it's called perception management was when I, you know, went out on my first case in the FBI and I thought to myself, okay, I got to look an FBI agent. I can't, I can't look like Joey from Miami. I got gotta, you know, I gotta look like Efram Zimbalist Jr, you know, with the, with the trench coat, you get it right away, the trench coat with a nice, uh, the nice suit, the nice tie, clean shoes and so forth. And I, and I think we all play these personas. Um, you know, your elegantly dressed up.
Speaker 1:Uh, we, we, we played different parts. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And, and, um, and I don't think that's being phony in any way. I think,
Speaker 1:uh, life requires us to play different parts and, uh, and it's fulfilling. Um, when a leader, the plays that, um, that part is as, as you do. So I think, I think we all play different roles at different stages, uh, in, in our, in our lives. And, uh, and I certainly, you know, if, if, if we're having fun with a group, uh, you know, you behave differently than when you're supposed to be the visiting scholar and so forth. What's the distinction here? Let me ask you a question because I, but I heard you say, is it that you had a self awareness that you wanted to look like an FBI agent? Yeah. And, and what you're saying to me without, is that I've got the self awareness as you know, here, kind of head of this organization right now that I better look like I'm the head of this organization. I can't come in unshaven and, you know, kind of have a different posture and all that stuff. Right. So I guess I, you do that, you know, I guess that's, that's kind of the case. Um, is that what you're, so what's the distinction between,
Speaker 3:okay.
Speaker 1:Acting the part? Yeah. And, and, and not being phony or not being fake, you know, cause I, there's, there's a, does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, of course. It makes sense. And it's, and it's, uh, it's a profound question because, um, we have all run into somebody who was being phony, who is trying to sell us a car and is being two friends right. When the situation doesn't call for that or we haven't known each other long enough.
Speaker 1:Um, I think that there's, there's people that do come across, uh, uh, uh, to phony. Yep.
Speaker 2:But I don't see, you know, Shakespeare was right. Life is theater. And I don't see any rate. I mean, I can tell you there were many times when I was on that reservation on the Parker Indian reservation and I was by myself. Backup was three hours away and I was scared. I was scared and I had to play like I wasn't scared. Now is that being phony? I don't think so. I think, I think this is what was required of me. Yeah. And, um, and I think we have to look at, uh, for, for instance, whenever there's, um, in any industry, any time a situation is dynamic, any time there is instability, anytime there is complexity, we gravitate to whoever presents as the most stable. That's good. That's good learning right there. And so we have to rise to that. Even though we are confronted with the same complexity, right? We have to be that stable person to, to, to say, you know what? Everything's gonna be all right. And do you think that stability is, is what I'm going to get from you now is that stability is not just what they say, but it's how they look, right? It's how they, it's their, it's their berets. How they, how they carried themselves in that ass time. You're exactly right. The greatest example in history was Winston Churchill for two years. The Nazis are plundering Europe. Everything that the Brits have tried has, uh, come apart. And yet he stood there resilient, not once a wavering in his intestinal fortitude. And that strengthened the result. Even while he didn't know how they would win in the end because America hadn't been committed to the war yet. But that's, that's why he was there. They needed someone. And interestingly enough of the 38 million, um, uh, people in the UK at the time, there was not one other person that any other politician would have picked other than Winston Churchill because he had been resolved in his, um, in, in his feelings towards a Nazi Germany since the 30s. So I, he, he was, he was playing a role and, and, and it was an essential rule, even though you could look at it and say it was an empty suit. They're there, we're running out of aircraft. Right, right. And yet they're getting bombed every night, bombed every night, running out of food, running out of fuel. And yet, because in complexity, someone has to be that stable person. And I think that's the key to, to leadership. It's not being perfect. It's, it's being what is needed at that moment to, to marshal the resources. How do you, if you were to work one on one, if you were to coach me as an example, let's say Joe helped me with this, you know, I want to be that leader that people look to that says, you know, the Jack is that that island that, that center of stability when things are a little bit cat, what would you tell me? How would you start or is that a fair question? Well, it's a, it's a difficult question because I've, I've done this with, uh, with individuals in, in, in different scenarios. And, and the question is, when there, when there is instability, what's our default? Okay. Do we, do we go into panic mode or, or do we, you're that great scene where, uh, ed Harris in Apollo 13 says, stay focused, work the problem. What's the problem? Is a good leader immediately sizes up everything. And rather than go into panic mode or reactive mode says let's break it down into its constituent parts. Who, what, when, where, and now let's address each, each, each one. And that action alone, which is cognitive, helps people to say, okay, you know what? Let's, let's settle down. Ralph, you, dude, this Sally Jane, focus on that. Then let's bring it together. Let's focus not on the why it happened, but what are we going to do now? And I, so yeah, I would have to, you know, I would have to ask you what happens in those crises, uh, points, um, because that's what often, um, it's troubling for an executive when that day that you had planned is suddenly gone. Right. Yeah. Right. What I'm hearing though is, is that that you would, what was the quote you have from Shakespeare? La Life is theater and you, and you believe that to be true. I, I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm just, yeah, no, I think so because he was a great observer. Yeah. He was a great writer because he was a great observer. So there's the, I guess what I'm, what I'm, what I'm getting to is, is that when you do have a role in the business, so leader, you're a leader in the business. Yeah. There is some element of, of acting into that position. You know, you gotta be yourself, for sure. I'm not saying you, you're, you're a phony, but there's, there's a certain, um, you can't be, you can't be phony in the ways that people find offensive. I, you know, I, I just did an event the other day and I made sure that I shook hands with all the stage hands with, with everybody. And the person that was hosting me said, do you always do that? And I go, yes, why? I have to thank them. They made me look, look good. That's just the, that's just the way I am. I think if I was phony, people would pick up on it. They would say, oh, this is just superficial. I, when you care about people, when you're empathetic, when you, when you as a leader like yourself, you exercise stewardship over an organization and the people that are directly under you, they will sense if, if you are not authentic and, and even our body language, for instance, when somebody pats you on the back, uh, when, when it's a full Palmer touching versus when somebody doesn't mean it and they just do it with their fingertips and you recoil from that, it's because they don't mean it. Okay. Because when we like things we press warmly against, and when we don't, we tend to touch with the fingertips. And you can see finger, uh, relationships coming apart when couples no longer fully touch each other, but, uh, are, are touching each other with, uh, with, with fingertips. So I think we have the, the ability to, the pickup on, on, on phoniness. But I see, I see the theater as being, this is my role, my role. If you're a security guard, my role is to keep this building safe. If I am this the CEO, I am the steward over this organisation and I have to, uh, I have to play a role and that role is I'm going to meet everybody, I'm going to get to know them in time and um, and I'm going to establish communication with them. And maybe that's all I'll be able to do. But I, but I think that's part of the role. So I don't think that's, that's phony. No, no, I didn't mean it that way either. I hear what you're saying though. Yeah. I mean, because there is, you know, there's, there's, you know, Jack is the CEO and Nexstar acts a little different than when jacks by himself hunting those cabin. I mean, I, I sure I have just kind of, uh, you know, I feel like I've got to put my game face on a little bit when I come to work and it's not, doesn't feel uncomfortable, but it's just different than what I do someplace else and realize that people are observing me. Right. I didn't realize that, that I want to walk into a room that people are consciously or unconsciously, subconsciously they're there, they're casting judgment. They're just trying to understand, you know, if see a person of substance and meaning, you know, you just used an interesting word. I think we overuse the word judgment. I, I tend to get away from that word because I think we as a species, we assess each other out of necessity. We're constantly assessing each other very good. And I think it was crucial for our survival. I think it remains crucial for us and we are transmitting information. My mother doesn't dress me. I dress myself. I choose the haircut that I'm going to have. I choose to floss, to cut my nails and so forth. This sends messages and um, the things we attached to ourselves send messages, whether it's a BMW or a folks wagon, it doesn't matter, right? But these are messages and we cannot ignore messages. All we can do is interpret them and, and uh, and work with them. But I think people do expect different things from yourself. Um, look at Tim Cook at Apple. I've seen him grow and change over the years and um, you know, uh, he, he's definitely different now because he has the burden of this massive organization and um, and I think our work also shapes us. That's, that's so true. I love what you said there about assessing. Yeah. Cause and what you said, that is everything we do, whether you decide to wear nice clothes or you decide not to, you can say, well, if I'm wearing nice clothes on, I'm sending out that I'm on something. If I'm wearing ratty clothes, it's like I don't care. Or maybe, but you're still sending a message, right? You're still sending, uh, uh, some, some example of yourself. Right. You're trying to send out to the world. You're, you're exactly right. I W W W got some advanced training. Uh, Mark Mills, who's a forensic psychiatrist who trained me, said, you know, there's all these tests and inventories for assessing for depression. Soon as that person walks through the door, I can break it down for you by their posture because they're not bouncing because their, their, their smile is limited, their eyelids are further down. And all this stuff, the, the way their dress, um, they're, they're not fixing themselves up. They've let themselves go because there's other priorities for that brain that is presently ill. And um, so we can assess a lot. Um, we can assess moods, we can assess intentions and so forth. And what I tell people is we're not making judgments. We are assessing what is the information out there. Now it's our, it's our obligation, not, not yours to then ask is something wrong? Are you in a good mood? What's, what's going on in your life and, and, and so forth. Um, and um, but that's how responsibility too, but our is to
Speaker 1:assess. I want to talk about one of the thing here too and you've been really, really helpful and very gracious here. Thank you
Speaker 2:as well. This has been fun. It's been kind of free ranging, but I'd like very free reign over the waterfront. No, we didn't. They were just going to talk a little bit. But this idea that
Speaker 1:what I'm, what I want, I want to ask you is from your experience. So if mood, you mentioned depression, I don't want to talk about that cause that's deep seated and it's a illness. I know it's very sensitive to it, but let's say that I'm not depressed but I'm a, I'm just a little off. Yeah. So I come in and I, and I wake up that way and I just feel just for some reason I just feel a little bit off. Um, and then I show that in my body language, right. Um, one train of thought is, is that, well I got to get my head right and then my body will respond. The question I have for you is, can I just start to respond as a happy person with my continence in my actions and put a smile on my face and will that then change what's inside by what I'm doing externally?
Speaker 2:This physiology thing? That's a great question. And there is research that, um, that, uh, that shows that if, if a person is just a little down, right. Okay. Um, uh, you know, the, the, the one experiment where if you put a pencil in their mouth and they bite on it, um, forces the same muscles as a smile. Um, and so they,
Speaker 1:they, they begin to
Speaker 2:feel a little better. Or if you just say, Hey, while you're, while you're walking down the street, see if you can count how many birds are on the top, very top ledge of each building. And just the mere fact that they're looking upward changes their posture and it changes and it sends different chemicals through the body. Those kinds of things. Um, you know, hearing a good joke and then you, you crack up and all of a sudden that it lifts that. I think for the, for the everyday kind of, uh, yeah, it's, you know, it's the end of the week I've had a rough week might be a useful, um, but for the clinically depressed, um, uh, it's, it's not that simple because we're really talking about, um, there's just not enough serotonin. And so it's, it's a definitely want to move that over to the side. But I was just talking about just generally, you know, I mean it's, it's something that, uh, as, as a business, because I have my own business, I'm very sensitive, uh, also to individuals that work for me. Uh, because I've had, uh, in one instance where a as a sort of gradual depression was, was setting. Yeah. And I, you know, it was one of those things where I'm glad I handled it by, by not saying something stupid like, are you get depressed, but rather spending a little bit more time with the individual and just talking about things in general and then allowing them the access so that they could reveal that they were having a tough time. Um, I think oftentimes when we make a mistake by being too direct, and I think, I think often enough is if we just give them that, that access to, to, uh, to get them to, um, to, to open up.
Speaker 1:Well, that was not where I wanted that to go, but that was good because I was thinking, you know, just, just generally kind of that, that not, not the a seriously depressed person or even a modestly depressed, and I get that right, but just the, just the energy level if I can.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well here's a, here's the, uh, here's a very simple one that, uh, I often do with, with, uh, with an audience. If, uh, if I, you know, they, they've been sitting in their seats for a three or four hours and one of the easiest things to do is you say, all right, everybody stand up, stand behind your chair, and now we're going to inch up and stretch our bodies. And when I count to three, and I'm the body language experts, so please do this. So do it a second time. And now we do it a third time and then I have them seated and, uh, uh, and then I go, do you want to know why I had you do that? And uh, yeah, I said, because I was in charge. And then they laugh. That lights a mood, lightens the mood. If I had come in and said, hey, I want you all to laugh and lighten the mood, that's not gonna work. I'm not a joke teller. But all of a sudden now they're laughing at, at, at, at the silliness of'em okay. Of, of, of what they've done. So there's, there's things that uh, yeah, there's things that we can do. Right? Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Well, I sure have enjoyed our conversation. It was, it's just been a conversation too. This has definitely been one that we've covered the waterfront here, right. A lot of different things and I sure appreciate you coming here and sharing some of your background, some of your journey here. And Deb, congratulations on all you've accomplished.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you jack and a and thank you because, uh, you're, you're a great guy, a great organization and your curiosity is a, is really what, uh, I admire the most. Well, thank you Oma.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much. And I look for, we haven't heard you talk yet. So normally I do these podcasts. If I do them with a, like yourself, I have heard their, their, their deal for a couple, three hours, which helps me with the, so I kind of walked in a little colder than I normally do. So I might, when I know what I'm going to do is I'm going to say, Ah, if your desk, I should have said this, I should have asked that. So that'll, that'd be okay though. It'll be fun. Yeah. So what if people want to know more about your work, tell him what's the, what's the first thing they should do? Yeah, my books are available at most bookstores. Visit your local bookstore. All of my books are All v a r R. O. Okay.
Speaker 2:Right. Add to on Amazon. Or they can go to my website at, uh, uh, Joe navarro.net and, um, and they can find the stuff about me and things that, uh, that, uh,
Speaker 1:you, you've gotten more little secrets out of me then,
Speaker 2:then I've ever revealed so that Kudos to you.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you. And it's been fine and thank you. Uh, thank you again. My pleasure and thank you all for listening. This is very different for Jack test or at least leadership lounge. I'm sure enjoyed it. I'm here with Joe Navarro in Seattle, Washington, and we'll catch you next time. Thanks so very much.