Stepping up - Getting it right from the Start. Jamie McDonnell Manager, Okta Customer Success

We welcome back Andy Bryars Director of Customer Success EMEA at Okta to share the secrets of his team’s success and shine a spotlight on one of his brightest stars. 

Moving from an individual contributor to manager role is one of the biggest changes we experience in our career.  Jamie McDonnell from Okta’s EMEA Customer Success team shares his experience of the step up. We also get to hear about the comprehensive onboarding program that the Customer Success team have implemented to set all their new hires up for success.  

This podcast is packed full of practical practices that all of the CS team embrace with extraordinary results. 

Topics covered include:

• Journey from individual contributor to manager
• Hiring the right people
• Setting new team members up for success
• Importance of accountability
• Introducing our first TeamX™ Ambassador

We would love you to follow us on LinkedIn! 

https://www.linkedin.com/company/amplified-group/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Welcome to Get Amplified from the Amplified Group, the podcast for tech industry leaders and aspiring leaders who want to help their companies execute faster. As always, we're virtual. I'm at home in Bucks where the sun has just come out after a grey morning. And Vicky, where are you today?

Vic 0:25

I am still in deepest dark at Oxfordshire, or am I?

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Or are you?

Vic 0:33

Sorry, that is an in-joke between Sam and I because I'm never in Deepest Dark at Oxfordshire. I'm always in Deepest Dark Buckinghamshire, the same as Sam, but for some reason I seem to have been located in Oxfordshire for the last few years.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

It's just kind of more or less Oxford by the time you get up to where you are. So we're on the border.

Vic 0:50

We're on the border.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

So having clarified that for our listeners, we got on today.

Vic 0:55

Well, Sam, as you have done so many podcasts with us, you will know that I'm always very enthusiastic about the guests on our podcast. But today is a really special one for us because today we have, I'm not going to say just a client with us, but a super, super special client from my perspective because we've got Okta on the podcast today. And I have been working with Okta since November 2019. And in reflecting and preparing for this podcast, I was thinking about it. And yesterday I was doing a train the trainer session with Tony Roberts, who is another super talented member of Okta customer success team. And it took me back to a conversation that I had with Tony back in the kitchen at Okta in November 2019, where he told me how concerned he was about how great the culture was within Okta and customer success, about how fast the company was growing and how worried he was that they were going to lose this great culture as they grew. And in doing the train the trainer session with him yesterday, I went back to the very first training deck that we used. And the title of that deck that we always go back to is Building Solid Foundations for Growth, which is what these guys have done. And we're going to share this today, but we're going to share it in a slightly different way because I think for this to really resonate, we need to make it more personal. And so what we have today is Andy Bryars is back with us, who recorded a podcast with us last year. So he's going to give us the context to start with. But we've also asked Jamie McDonald to join us because Jamie has been on such a journey with Okta over the last few years, particularly moving from an individual contributor role to a leader role. And I think he's got such a valuable story to tell.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Well, ladies and gentlemen, that's all we've got time for on the podcast today. So thanks for listening.

Vic 3:22

That is my longest interception ever.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

I'm so cruel to you.

Vic 3:28

You are I could take it though.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

So let's introduce our valued guests today. So Andy, maybe you can go first. Just tell us a little bit about yourself, refresh people's memories from your earlier appearance, please.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

Yeah, so uh thanks for inviting us, and uh really nice to be here again. Um so just a reminder, I'm lucky enough to uh be running the AMIA Customer Success Team here at Okta. Um, and I'm really delighted that we're gonna get to shine a light on Jamie's story. I've been involved in working with Jamie for coming up to seven years now, and between us we've built this team from the ground up. Um there's there's around 35 of us, and I'll get Jamie to go into the detail, but we're going through a lot of change, organizational change as we go through growth. Uh and I'll touch on that a little bit later. But um, most importantly, since we met Sam, we I think we recorded in in the middle of lockdown in COVID. And uh the most insightful thing for me in the last uh year is that we met the team for the first time all together, which uh you know never happened before because um half the people joined in in the pandemic, and we're meeting customers again. So uh it's great to be coming back out out of the pandemic, regardless of all the problems we've got around the world, um, and to actually be seeing customers because that's what we we enjoy doing.

Vic 4:54

Andy, could you give us a little bit of information on how the team has grown? And also um, it would be great if you can share how you're using Beacon Force.

SPEAKER_03 5:06

Yeah, absolutely. So just a level set for everybody who's listening to this. Ox is going through a rapid hypergrowth of over 50% year-on-year growth. Um, we've got a change in leadership, um, and there's a new level of discipline um and rigour to how we're going around things. Um, we're actually targeting to grow from 1 billion to 4 billion in the next three years. So that's that's the sort of rate of growth we're expecting. And in order to achieve that, we are looking at our operating model and how we transform that for this next phase of growth. Um, so we're really focused as a team on how we navigate through a huge amount of change. And last year, just a reminder for the listeners that we acquired uh AutoZero, which is a customer identity platform, one of the uh leading vendors in that space for 6.5 billion. So, in the middle of all our all our growth, we're also attaching uh another significant business into that. So, what we're finding is our current models won't scale for what we need in the future. So, what what we've done uh since we last spoke is we've built out, or we're building out a center of excellence, which Tony Roberts is actually leading, so that we can become more repeatable and we can drive best practice. We're building out our own technical strategists, which are effectively architects, because our products are getting wider and deeper. So we need more technical expertise to help with conversations with customers. We've introduced a third-party outsourced organization to help us in some of the um smaller customers that we are still responsible for. And we're working really closely with our counterparts in the US that are building out digital services. So for me, that's really exciting as a leader that we get to play in both digital, uh outsourced and our own customer success motion in one entity. Um all that said, and all this change, we're looking at how we our delivery model, operational model, and how we operate that from next financial year. Now, where does Beacon Force fit into that? So for us, managing through all this change is really important that as a team we are fixed on a single purpose and that our values are top of mind. And and Beacon Force allows us to do that, it keeps it top of mind every day. Uh for those of you not aware, you ask a you get asked a few questions, uh, it takes a minute, two minutes, uh, and it maps how you're executing. So if you're highly stressed, we could see that if you're bored, uh, but ideally we want to be what they call the flow. Um, so uh I hope that answers your question there, Vicky. But uh Beacon Force is now embedded in uh day-to-day operations.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Great sense. Maybe Jamie, you would be so kind as to give something of a potted career history, how you got to where you are today, please.

SPEAKER_02 8:17

Of course. I work as the regional manager uh for customer success. I manage the UKI and the South Amir regions for Okta. So I guess I think what's important actually is uh way back before I just started my career when I was at university, because I actually did product design, which was an interesting start into my tech career, because it what it was really about was uh it was user-centric design and problem solving. Um they sort of taught me how to break things down to um, you know, sort of a bits and bytes level, and then rebuild it centered around the user. And I think what I learned there, I've taken through my career, certainly in uh customer services, uh, it's really stayed with me. Um and some of the the roles I've had where we have been helped to sort of build and develop the service or the frameworks and engagement with customers, it's really set me up for being able to help develop that sort of thing. Having done product design, I jumped straight into becoming a systems administrator, rolling out NT351 and Windows 95 on the desktop. Uh, that was great fun. Um long time ago now. But having done that and then moved into third line support, I took a bit of a career change. And rather than really focus on the on the technical side, I moved into uh technical account management at Microsoft. And that was uh an absolute fantastic role and a fantastic time to be there. They were scaling quite rapidly uh back then. So we actually moved from something like 70 technical account managers to 120 in about two years while I was there. And uh there was a great environment where one of the key taglines was don't ask for permission, ask for forgiveness. And again, having that kind of environment to grow and develop in back in my early career really helped shape and develop my sort of later years as well. So from being a technical account manager there, I bounced around in service delivery roles. I actually took a couple of uh team leader roles, uh, one with a company called Lenovo, just as um, it was actually the Think brand, which uh Lenovo bought from IBM. I uh got hired for a team leader role. And when I arrived on the day, they told me there was no team leader role. There was only a technical account manager role there for me. So my management career didn't uh start till a little later on. But sort of moving forward, I went back to Microsoft for a number of years and then I moved to Citrix, which uh Vicki, I know you know very well, but I was hired as one of the first three uh customer success managers globally for their new customer first organization. So we were tasked with building what a customer success manager was, what they did, what was an operating model, what was the engagement framework with customers, et cetera. So that was a really interesting time and function to help develop that. From there, I moved to Oracle, but they were looking for customer success managers that could span multiple product pillars to support their largest customers, you know, the largest banks and uh enterprise organizations. So again, I helped them develop sort of a different engagement framework based around customer success supporting their customers, which stood me in great stead for when I moved to Okta, which was now just nearly seven years ago, as the first Okta CSM hired in AMIA.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Great, thanks for that, Jamie. Good canter through your career today. Maybe you should give us a bit more detail on your role today as at Okta and your journey into management, if you don't mind.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Of course. Yeah, started at Okta as a senior CSM. Being the first customer success manager on the ground here in AMEA, we didn't have a very comprehensive engagement, customer engagement framework. So uh there was a lot of um work to do in helping build out the the customer success function, how we work with customers. Back then there was uh we were growing again, still at 50% year on year. So uh there was a lot of opportunity ahead of us. We'd spoken, I'd spoken to my uh the manager who who hired me about possible leadership roles. But when you know when you're growing at 50% of one person, it it still takes time to build out the function and get to a size where you need that kind of management structure. So we sort of worked very hard supporting the largest customers in Amir. Um, but as we were getting to a size where we needed that management structure, I actually went through a couple of impactful life events which really sort of derailed me. So I lost my father and my wife uh soon after and was diagnosed with cancer. So um it really, I really wasn't in a good position to move to a manager role, which you know, everything uh being considered, I think, was uh the best thing for Okta anyway, because at that point Andy moved into the manager role and has been absolutely fantastic developing and growing the organization. And I'm so glad it worked that way. These things do work out at times. But you know, Andy and Okta supported me through that time. I continued my career and developing in role as an IC, but then the opportunity came a little later on, back in sort of 2021, to move into a player manager role. I had my first three people to to manage.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

The player track player manager transition is always interesting, isn't it? Um, you know, I remember doing that, and it you know, instantly your your friends are slightly wary of you because you're you're sort of the boss now. It's uh it's a funny old, funny old transition, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 14:11

It is, it is, and I I I think it's probably the hardest transition to do into that kind of role. It really is. But also not just because you know, management is a different framework, is a completely different role to an IC. And trying to do two different roles at the same time is is really not easy. Um and it's something that we we we try and avoid now looking at our teams as much as possible, just because the stress that it can put on someone, and you know, trying to have one head for their customer role and then one head for their their management role. We went. And yeah, the the first, you know, me and Tony working through it, it was kind of challenging. Um, it got a little easier uh later on, and now we've got a um you know a really good grasp of what we need to do, what's best to do, and how to help people transition, as we have recently with Sandy as well.

SPEAKER_03 15:03

For me, what Jamie did through that transition, he shared leadership qualities before we promoted him into a former manager. And what I find really interesting now is Jamie's applying that same methodology to individual contributors in his team that want to step up and become a manager or do a different role. And we're showing that you can be you can show leadership qualities without the formal title. And so we've got stretch goals for everybody in the team, and it's I think it's paying dividends for everybody.

Vic 15:34

That's a really good point.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

I think that makes sense. I think um I don't whether it's probably not relevant to Okta, I suspect, but I do think businesses have to be careful about making people do roles with management responsibility without formally promoting them or uh or paying them appropriately. A friend of mine's been through a difficult situation where she's been effectively promoted without being given the job title and without being given any pay rise. So she's left. You know, she'd be happy to take on the additional responsibility, but they're they're not treating her right. I suspect that's rather different, a doctor.

Vic 16:12

The the other, the other counter of that as well, Sam, is kind of what Andy was alluding to there is you can be a leader without having direct reports and leading different areas of the business and showing leadership. And I think that's what the customer success team, you know, as Andy said, they're all they've all taken on some kind of responsibility. So they're all being challenged, which is when you go back and look at Beacon Force and seeing if the team are feeling challenged and seeing if they're growing, we can see that and see where people have got gaps and actually feel like that they need more challenge and they feel because we all need to feel like we're continuously learning.

SPEAKER_02 16:52

Of course, yeah, and I think uh that that that is a really good point, Sam. And so, you know, we've got an opportunity at the moment how we are adapting to manage and support the South Amir region as they grow and develop. So we don't have enough accounts or uh revenue there to put a formal structure in. But one of our team has showed great leadership potential, has got some fantastic skills and experience, and especially um experience in the region. Move them now into a team leader role to start evolving and adapting and just to get their arms around the region. Um, he will be looking to then move into a manager role when we have enough um CSMs, when we have enough revenue there, and then moving into the regional manager role and growing and developing with that region. So, you know, we haven't thrown them into having all the responsibility and all the job yet with no sort of promotion. They're going to be slowly growing and expanding as the region expands, and they will get those promotions as they um as they build that team.

Vic 17:59

So that's like a phased approach, isn't it? And it and again, going back to we all want to feel challenged and that we're learning, it's it's continuous growth, but you're giving them a path to to go on, and I think that is clear from the work that you've been doing with the rest of the team as well. And and what you've experienced yourself.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It's um a fantastic environment to be able to do this.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

I think that's what my friend didn't have was a defined path and support from managers to show her the way into the position that she was effectively doing. So let's talk about obviously you've expanded rapidly. I presume you've got a process, a journey for your new starter. Perhaps you could talk about that a little bit, please.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

Yeah, of course. Um, so I was I was I was thinking about this earlier, and the more I thought about it, the more I realized how much we do for new starters and how comprehensive our onboarding system strategy and process is. Um it's quite phenomenal. I've I've not known this from any other company. And I think you know, a lot of this has been uh helped, has developed over time through, you know, Andy, Tony, myself, but also with the work we've done with with Vicky and Amplified. Um so I really think that the the process starts in the interview process. So when we go through, when we start interviewing someone, they've got the opportunity to meet between six and eight members of our team between the managers and CSMs. So we have a very comprehensive uh process which um takes them through meeting the CSMs individually, meeting the team managers, and then uh a group presentation. But that gives both parties the opportunity to get a really good idea of what the people, the culture, and the the company is like. So, you know, for me that's when the onboarding starts. It's about making sure that someone is making the right decision to move to your company when they actually get on board with us. It then, I mean, the we we start sort of with the official team. So we have an official buddy um who runs a weekly meeting and uh talks to that person about all kinds of things, everything. Um the the manager, the team manager will have to start with daily catch-ups with that uh new person. They'll obviously move probably out to weekly, etc., as they get onboarded. The first three days are official Okta onboarding, so they get completely immersed in what it is to be Okta and what it is to work here. From day four onwards, we we we um move them into our 30, 60, 90-day CSM onboarding induction program. So the first month typically they are focused on on online training, training courses, gaining the knowledge and experience of our platform products, etc. The second month typically we start to get them out and about. So they start shadowing um various team members, they start getting more involved in seeing what sort of customer issues we're managing and how we approach customer meetings, etc. Um, and then yeah, sort of uh the the third month tends to start looking at the full onboarding, so picking up their customers, starting to do handovers, but even those customer handovers we take our time with uh will run two monthly meetings. The first monthly meeting they will shadow, the second monthly meeting they'll kind of run, but still with the incumbent CSM on that meeting as well. So, you know, we support that transition. And I think for me, this is absolutely key because uh, you know, we put a lot of time and effort into making sure people are comfortable, they understand Okta and can bring Their best self forward through the culture that's been built, you know, by Andy, yourself, Vicky, and Amplified. We find that it's not just the buddy, the manager that onboards that person, the whole team does. Everyone reaches out to that new hire. They set up one-to-ones, they they bring them along to meetings and they engage with them. We have a very collaborative environment through Slack, through Zoom, team meetings, through our offices. We then engage with Amplified for that new hire. We run them through the disk assessment. We run the comparison reports for them and their manager to understand how best to function and work together. We then run them through the five dysfunctions workshop to help onboard them further into our culture and show them why we do the things we do and why we work the way we do. Beacon Force is now key to that, getting them on board with answering these questions so that we can understand where they are on their journey and we can pick up early warning signs if they seem to be getting bored or if they seem to be overly stressed with the process. So, you know, it's it's really key that people are on boarded as quickly as possible, but at their own pace. As I said, we put a lot of time and effort into this because the quicker we can get them comfortable and onboarded, the quicker they start bringing their best self. That we've hired these people for their skills and experience. We want what they are bringing to us to help us develop and grow because you know people are our differentiator.

Vic 23:37

So there's a couple of things I want to pick up on there. Firstly, I remember some of the early work that we did together as you were growing, and how the rigorous interview process that you had was looking at the skills and experience. And one of the things that you guys realized very quickly was actually the number one thing that you were looking for is these people need to be team players of the attitude there. And I think that has really stood you well. And so the buddying program that you have and the way that you were just talking about how everyone collaborates, I get to see that firsthand because when we do that first five behaviours workshop with the team, and I say, right, we're going to match you two up. Have you ever spoken before? Oh, yeah, we've spoken loads of times. They might be in different countries, but they already know each other. So that's really apparent to me and very valuable. But I also want to just highlight here, and I think it's important, I was out to dinner with you guys last November, I think, for a pre-Christmas celebration. And I think it was you, Jamie, that said, Oh, you feel like you're one of the family now. And I was like, Oh, that was a massive warning bell to me. Because I'm like, if I'm feeling like I'm one of the family, and it was through these workshops of the onboarding, because we'd had to do so many of them. I'm thinking, this isn't right. Because our job is to make you guys self-sustainable so that you don't need us anymore. That's that's that's what we're aiming for, and that's why we've introduced Beacon Force. But also, you know, I mentioned at the start of this doing the train the trainer with Tony yesterday, and we've been doing it with yourself as well, Jamie. So that actually those new that new hire training that we're doing doesn't come from me anymore, it comes from you guys because the five dysfunctions and the five behaviors you live and breathe this so well now. It comes so naturally to you, as I've observed in watching your team meetings and in talking to other team members, that you can do this now. You don't need us to do it. And I think that that is a huge component of the success that you're having within the team now.

SPEAKER_03 25:39

That's a really good point, Nikki. Actually, it was like trying to cut the umbilical cord is like we knew that to empower our teams, we needed to really take ownership of what you've taught us in the last three years, and I think with Jamie and Tony in particular taking on that ownership, um, Beacon Force, making sure it's top of mind, is really starting to embed this into uh our operational cadence as a team.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

Yeah, yeah. Do you have specific values that you recruit against to try and imbue into your team?

SPEAKER_02 26:15

We do. So yeah, it's it's funny you you ask. We we've just been through our recent um review process, and as part of that, we review employees against our company core values, which are love our customers, never stop innovating, act with integrity, be transparent, and empower our people. And these the these five core values are like they were written for the customer success manager. The only other sort of what I'd add to that myself is is around trust. Um, you know, we'll go back to building this foundation and you know, Patrick Lencioni, it's it's been absolutely critical for us to build a very you know strong foundation of trust through the teams.

Vic 27:04

I feel like I need to do a drum roll. Because I've got a big announcement to make here. On this podcast, we are announcing our first amplified team experience ambassador, is Jamie McDonnell. And I could not be more proud. So this is recognition for Jamie as a leader. And if I just talk a little bit about what a team experience or team X, as we've trademarked it, um, ambassador is, is they embody the best of what it means to lead a team. They're humble, kind, nurturing, and continually learning. And not only that, for those of you that have listened to these podcasts before and have heard me talk about the gardener leader, and a gardener leader being one that enables team members to flourish and grow, that is exactly what Jamie does. And I've seen this in practice, I've witnessed how he leads his meetings, I talk to many of his direct reports, and I know that Jamie does this. And we have some very specific criteria that we'll share as notes on the end of this podcast to enable this to happen because it is absolutely it needs to be measured. We don't give these out willy-nilly. So it's absolutely wonderful to be able to recognize you, Jamie, as our first team experience ambassador.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

Congratulations, Jamie. No, thank you ever so much. I uh I'm honoured, I really am.

Vic 28:43

There are so many individual contributors that look at how do they move into a manager leader role, and um the way that you have embraced this and how you are continuously looking to self-improve, you just set such a wonderful example, and that's what that that's why you have this award.

SPEAKER_03 29:06

I want to add one more thing to this, Vicky, as well, which will make Jamie cringe even more. So uh Patrick Lencioni tells us that uh conflict and healthy conflict is really important in the team. Yeah, Jamie, the way that Jamie operates, uh, and he certainly makes me more accountable. Um, he's very methodical, he's systematic, he thinks on things, and you can see him processing it before he gives an answer. I am a little bit more shoot from the hips um and worry about the consequences later. So Jamie's like so complimentary to balance the management team out to make sure we're a little bit more thoughtful.

Vic 29:45

Uh so thank you, Jamie, for actually something that you've just talked about there, Andy, that's just triggered with me is one of the things that Jamie is exceptionally good at that a lot of leaders are not and find it difficult is holding people accountable. So having the clarity of what their expectations are and then holding he holds you accountable, he holds me accountable, and he holds his team accountable, and he doesn't shy away from those difficult conversations. And I think the way that you do that, Jamie, really sets you apart from many other leaders that I get to work with.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

So are you seeing positive effects, Jamie, from building such a strong team? One would assume so.

SPEAKER_02 30:30

Yes, we are, absolutely. The number one has to be our extraordinarily high retention rate. So here at Okta in customer success, we've lost one CSM in the past seven years. You know, and we're a team of over 30 now. So in all that time, we have only ever lost one CSM, which I think is absolutely phenomenal. It's certainly unheard of by myself in my career, but it's certainly not by accident either. This is something we've worked very hard to build, and it's it's really paying off. So I think the third point for me is that we have you know one of the highest internal employee engagement survey results across our organization. Uh, we have you know really positive feedback from the whole team uh across Amir about how uh we're doing and you know how much they enjoy working with us, for us, um, and how much they you know expect to be here for quite some time.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

So obviously, since jumping into a management role, um you've amassed some serious experience. Um, if you were to go through all that again, what would you tell your your younger self, your pre-managerial responsibility self?

SPEAKER_02 31:54

So I think anything I told myself, I you know, I wouldn't listen to anyway. I have to learn that. Yeah, but um I think the one thing I've learned is patience. Uh it takes time. Um, you know, you you need to take the the long-term approach, uh, build a strong foundation, and then once you start with that strong foundation and continue to grow and develop from there, things will come. It takes time to build anything, you know, be it a a career yourself, a team or an organization. And I think in the past I've just not been uh patient enough with myself or where I am.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

That makes sense. I think Vicky said on the last podcast that we recorded that in her early days she was something of a bull in a china shop. I think that probably chimes with most of us, doesn't it? When we're so keen to get on with life and our careers and you know, take the opportunities ahead of us. Um having that patience is is important.

Vic 32:56

You know, and I think it's important to say, you know, on the last podcast, we talked with Tim about DISC. So on disc, Jamie's starting point is a D. And you know, Tim talked about Ds being, you know, drivers and being impatient. And and very often you go into a meeting and the D's are very, very, very easy to identify. I haven't hadn't got a clue where Jamie was on disc when I met him because he's so well balanced, and you're very considered in your approach, Jamie. Um but you have that driving force, you have that steely determination. So you've certainly learned that patience and and demonstrate that incredibly well.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

It's been uh a hard, a hard lesson to learn.

Vic 33:57

I'm still learning.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

Are we all? So as we bring our podcast towards its inevitable conclusion, um perhaps you'd be so kind, Jamie, to um give us some some key takeaways, ideally three for our listeners.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

Absolutely. If it if it was me, the the three takeaways I would say, you know, make the effort to hire rights in the first place, to build that foundation, put time and effort in resource to ensure that it's right for both sides. I would then say definitely take the time again and uh and put the resource into onboarding your people. Just because someone's come from a senior leadership position doesn't mean that they can hit the ground running in the first week. They need to help adapting and you know, evolving into your company, otherwise you might find that they're running running in the wrong direction.

Vic 34:50

So just before you go on to the third one, I think that's a really, really, really important point because when we um when we did the podcast with Mark Templeton, um, he said one of the big changes that happened with Citrix as they went through growth was they hired too quickly, they hired the wrong people. And and I think your point there, if you're not giving them the guiding principles and they go off in a different direction, that's where you get all that internal conflict and the silos forming because you've just got people building their own little empires. And I think you know, you've got multiple teams now within customer success, but it's still one team. You're still building out that that team of teams. Sorry, I'll let you get back to your third point.

SPEAKER_02 35:40

No, no, not at all. I agree with everything you said. It's uh I think the third piece here is find a methodology to help you grow and develop that works for you. You know, we we use the five dysfunctions, Patrick Leot and Sioni's teachings, and it works really well for us. But unless you have an idea or a framework that you're working to, again, you know, you don't know what direction people are going in. And I think that really helps.

Vic 36:07

You know, what you just talked about there is having a framework. What we also see in the tech industry is it's the next shiny thing and the next shiny thing and the next, and so L and D are going, oh, here's a new thing, let's go and roll that out. Here's a new thing, let's go and roll that out. And we did a podcast at the very beginning of when we did podcasts, and it was with Verena Sunday, and her podcast was about pick a lane and stick to it. So pick your framework, stick to it, and then if you are going to add bits, add them in, but add them into the framework. Don't just do something else on the side and something because it has to be super simple. And and one of the things that I think has has made this team so successful is that every time you bring new hires on, they get introduced to the same framework. So you've got this consistency across the team, and that really is giving you those solid foundations to grow as you are.

SPEAKER_03 37:04

Yeah, I think the other thing we've learned, Vicki, over time is uh in the tech industry, there's a lot of complexity. And what you've really done at Amplified is allowed us to really focus with this theme of simplification. And it sounds easy, but it's really hard to achieve. But I think we've found that if we can focus and execute on those really important points, um, we actually get a lot more benefit. So simplifying what we're doing is always top of mind for us.

Vic 37:34

I I love that you're saying that because the way, you know, simplicity is the last point, isn't it, on our speed check. So we have purpose, trust, clarity, and simplicity. And, you know, being clear on your purpose, you guys have always had a clear purpose, but you've refined that even more. The trust in the team, we know by measuring that how strong it is. And in fact, you came in on our speed check at 83, which just so happens to be what we say is industry best practice, and we we got that number before you did your speed check. So that was just magic that that came in. But I think now with the work that we've done with you about simplicity, because I described the simplicity bit. Sprint simplicity for me is like the sprinkles on the icing on the cake. It's like the last bit to really tweak it and the focus that you guys have put in there. I'm actually really looking forward to doing another speed check with you because you are executing at speed, because you have been able to simplify things. I know we've still got a little bit of work to do there, but my goodness, what a journey we've been on over the last two and a half years.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Amazing stuff. So, our last question of you, Jamie, before you we let you go. Do you have a book recommendation for our listeners, please?

SPEAKER_02 38:45

That's a really tough one, but uh really easy as well, I think. It has to be The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lincioni. It's the foundation.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

I've heard him, I've heard of him. I thought great stuff.

Vic 38:57

The fact that that's that is your book recommendations and you're always looking for new books goes back to keeping it simple and going, right, of everything. This this is the one.

SPEAKER_02 39:08

Definitely, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Great stuff. Thank you, Jamie, and also thanks, Andy, too for joining us again. I really appreciate your input, and I'm sure our listeners found that absolutely invaluable. Um, so we really appreciate it. It just remains for me to say thanks for listening to Get Amplified from the Amplified Group. Your comments and subscriptions are as always gratefully received.